Do F2M CD for the same reasons that M2F do?

[MarinaTwelve200]

I am wondering. Save for reasons a degree of TS, do non TS F2M CDers CD for the same reasons non-TS M2F do?

I would think that the entire dynamic of CD would be different in bio-females than bio-males. One obvious difference is that the general public cares little if a woman wearing a man's garment than the other way around.

So I would think that the "humiliation/SM" factor sometimes seen in M2F CD would be out for F2Ms. What about a fetish element? What about the "high" from "taboo tripping" or other forms of CD based thrill seeking? Do F2Ms CD to "escape"---from ones self ot the pressures of being female as many M2Fs CD to escape from the self or male pressures?

Or is F2M CD almost exclusively "male side" expression or largely TS based? That would explain the lower F2M numbers, ---the other reasons why bio males would CD being irrelivant to bio-females.

[Cai]

I know I fall under the TS side of things, but there's also an element of escapism for me. I hear the MtFs talking about an "urge to dress" and I have something similar. I'll plan outings because I need "Cai time", as I call it. I need to go be a guy.

[crazy4cheezeits]

It seems to me like the majority of FTM CDers who are not TS are just lesbians trying to fit into the lesbian community. Really, wearing guys clothing is not very taboo.

[Billijo49504]

JMHO I sat down with a FtoM CD and got the impression they have the same problem as the M to F CD. They feel like they are in the wrong bodies. It's just that they can get away with dressing in mens clothes easier, as I was told.....BJ

[BarbaraTalbot]

It seems to me like the majority of FTM CDers who are not TS are just lesbians trying to fit into the lesbian community. Really, wearing guys clothing is not very taboo.

And read about the boys struggles on here,I might have bought that stereotype. Now I don't think you could be more wrong.

Look at the poll (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64009) results (admittedly a small sample) most are transgendered persons. Noone came foward and suggested I add the option. "I dress to trick hot chicks into going to bed with me."

I know the tone of the forum needs to maintain a civil tone so I'll pull my punches a little. The statement seems ignorant to me.

Do you think the stereotype that men who like wearing womens clothes do it because they are secretly gay but want to meet straight men for a homesexual experiance?

[noname]

I think the difficulty in your question is that mtf don't dress for the same reasons. Not all mtf are trying to pass or go out en femm. I don't think I've met any mtf who dress for the same reason I do, style, comfort and equal rights.

[ZenFrost]

I have to quote Pocoyo here, because what he said sums it up really, really well.



I think that a lot of the confusion is because the board is called crossdressers.com and the ftm section is (naturally) called "ftm crossdressing".
Which makes people's 1st assumption, that the ftms posting here are just girls putting boys' clothes on.
Which the odd ftm does, but in the main, ftm people are actually tg or ts ... because for a female-bodied person to question and seek help or guidance about their gender, they have to have pretty hard-core gender issues in the 1st place, because it is so normal in society these days for female-bodied people to wear "male" clothes.


I feel like this applies to me too, I don't 'get a kick' out of crossdressing, it doesn't turn me on, and I don't even feel like I'm actually crossdressing. I feel like I'm a man, wearing men's clothes, because I am a man, and the clothes are just a means to help my outside match my inside.

[Felix]

Sorry folks but that reply about Ftm who are lesbian trying to fit into the lesbian community is so wrong. These days there are so many fem lesbians that ya would never know are lesbians unless they told ya and yeah there are butch lesbians and always have been but they all don't feel like they are trapped in the wrong bodies they just like to dress like this cos they are comfy in mens clothes. Ya don't have to be butch to fit into the lesbian community. Dear me forget the labels cos we are just human beings who dress the way we are comfortable unless ya do it because you feel ya trapped in the wrong body or it gives ya a kick. I think this post is a little close to the edge and it is pigeon holing. What happened to equality and freedom of choice? Live and let live that's what I say!!! Felix

[noname]

These days there are so many fem lesbians that ya would never know are lesbians unless they told ya and yeah there are butch lesbians and always have been but they all don't feel like they are trapped

So true. I've met some lesbians that were smoking hot. I was actually taken upon finding out they were lesbians. I remember thinking dang, your that hot and your a lesbian? Your like every guys dream.

This was all of course before I learned appearance was not linked to orientation.

[Dasein9]

JMHO I sat down with a FtoM CD and got the impression they have the same problem as the M to F CD. They feel like they are in the wrong bodies. It's just that they can get away with dressing in mens clothes easier, as I was told.....BJ

We have some similarities and some differences. Some of the problems we face are quite different from those faced by MtFs.

For instance, we can pass more easily, to be sure, but we also tend to look much younger than we are, so people don't always take us seriously. Most people think I'm 10 years younger than I am, and then either assume I can't be mature enough to have anything to contribute to an adult conversation, or else they know I have a few degrees and assume I'm some kind of genius, which also makes them not want to talk to me.

I think we may be less likely to be beaten up by bigots, but when we are, I suspect we stand a greater chance of being raped as well as beaten. So, the incidence may be lower, but the stakes are a bit higher.

[Taylor105]

We have some similarities and some differences. Some of the problems we face are quite different from those faced by MtFs.

For instance, we can pass more easily, to be sure, but we also tend to look much younger than we are, so people don't always take us seriously. Most people think I'm 10 years younger than I am, and then either assume I can't be mature enough to have anything to contribute to an adult conversation, or else they know I have a few degrees and assume I'm some kind of genius, which also makes them not want to talk to me.

I think we may be less likely to be beaten up by bigots, but when we are, I suspect we stand a greater chance of being raped as well as beaten. So, the incidence may be lower, but the stakes are a bit higher.

Exactly. I'm a 33 year old guy who gets carded for alcohol. And before I quit smoking I was still being carded for those too. People always tell me how "cute" I am. I know I'm seen as an adolescent. Unless I open my mouth to speak I don't think people would assume I was intelligent because I look so young. And to top it off I'm short!! So I don't exactly have it easy.

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

I know I'm new here, but I think I have a different perspective on this issue. I used to dress exclusively femme because I wanted to break lesbian stereotypes - that was actually sort of a trend for awhile in my area - but, then I realized that wasn't all there was to me and started crossdressing. At first I tried to pretend that it was for drag purposes or just goofing off/dressing up, but then it lasted two months past the drag show... I guess I would say that I have to do it because otherwise I just feel incomplete, like there's a peice of the puzzle missing.

[brylram]

The only time I've ever thought of myself as crossdressing, or dressing in a manner that was unusual for myself... was when I dressed as female. I always dressed as a boy as a child, and it was only after attending a private school where I was forced to wear the girls uniform, that I realized I was expected to dress in a way unnatural for me. After that I returned to dressing normally (as male), and only crossdressed again when I was attempting to become a girl to have a relationship with a lesbian. So I guess my reasons for crossdressing were to meet expectations, and to attempt to be someone I was not. And if I were to wear a dress now, it would be for show, or something along those lines.

Other than that, I don't crossdress. I'm just a guy, dressing like a guy.

[Satrana]

It is very hard for MTF CDs to imagine what it is like to be a FTM CD (not TG/TS). All MTFs come from a background where displaying the slightest feminine trait is not allowed so we all come from the darkest, deepest of closets. The idea that it is OK and natural to have been able to have the freedom of choice to wear either masculine or feminine clothes all our lives from childhood onwards just blows our minds. It is like asking someone to imagine living on another planet, our imagination would not even be close to reality.

I find Pocoyo's statement to be on target. For a GG to actually acknowledge that she is feeling something different beyond what other women feel when wearing clothes and expressing herself in a masculine/feminine manner would mean she would have to be heading towards the TG/TS end of the spectrum. There are no doubt plenty of FTM CDs out there but many of them are unaware of their condition and would never label themselves a CD, most likely they would just say they were a tomboy who never changed. You DO find a lot of women who label themselves tomboys, but because their entire life story differs so much from that experienced by boys, applying the label FTM CD becomes very difficult since there is no obvious clear boundary between a normal woman and a FTM CD.

And because a FTM CD/tomboy rarely has to exist in a closet, all the peculiarities of the MTF CD such as escapism, stress relief, SM humiliation, taboo tripping etc just does not exist.

Women in general are already living a transgendered lifestyle. They arrived at this state from a different route ie feminism which broke apart the female gender stereotype. So the way women treat and think of their transgendered lifestyle differs from that which crossdressing men would behave if they lived in a society that freely allowed them to crossdress.

[Tobie]

Interesting for me to read this thread right now, because my own gender identity has been something I've been thinking about a LOT lately.

I've come to realize that I'm bigender. As most people are, bigender folk are born in one specific gender. However, their personality/spirit/whatever you want to call it has both. Some express it by adopting an adrogynus appearance and express their 'gender of the day' by their personality or the barest of physical changes. Some, like myself, express it through crossdressing.

[brylram]

Women in general are already living a transgendered lifestyle.

Actually, if you want to talk transgender then every single person can be considered to live a transgender lifestyle. Boy is a gender, girl is a gender, as are man and woman...but every action we make and thing we like or dislike falls somewhere within or outside of 'boy' or 'girl', 'man' or 'woman' (sometimes enough outside to cause displeasure in those around us at a percieved disonance). Depending on how much or little a boy fits what is expected of a boy, and who is doing the expecting, he may be more or less male in their eyes. There's no such thing as a perfect model of a boy... there are boys who like trucks and boys who like sports cars, and boys who like trucks, but kittens too... and boys who like trucks and kittens, but who may or may not like war, may or may not like baking, may or may not like math. Every person alive is violating the concept of 'male' and 'female' as gender in some way, because gender itself is just a concept, and no-ones ideas of it are the same.

Sex, on the other hand can supposedly be narrowed down to male and female... yet that too isn't quite as simple as it seems, because there are males, females, people who are physically male or female yet have the wrong chromosomes, or too many, or their penis doesn't look enough like a penis for the doctors liking, or their clitoris is too big and ought to be scaled down (for their good of course, cause lord knows a large clitoris would impair even the most gifted of children from having a successful and happy life). 'Intersexed' children are born every day. Men everywhere have two X chromosomes, and never even know it. The notion that there are 'males' and 'females' even in terms of sex, doesn't quite hold up with even a half-a**ed inspection.

I'm not even sure what I'm talking about anymore... god I wish I could sleep..... but hopefully this makes sense... even a little.

[Satrana]

Actually, if you want to talk transgender then every single person can be considered to live a transgender lifestyle.

Yes most men do go outside their traditional roles but not all. Macho men base their masculinity on being anti-feminine, meaning they are the exact opposite of anything which could be considered feminine. As the old fashioned concepts of masculinity based on stoicism and social responsibility decline largely due to the onslaught of feminism which portrayed male qualities as bad, so a new concept of masculinity has developed based on anti-social, anti-feminine behavior. Basically real men are bad guys who would never be caught dead doing anything feminine.

[CaptLex]

The idea that it is OK and natural to have been able to have the freedom of choice to wear either masculine or feminine clothes all our lives from childhood onwards just blows our minds.
Women don't always have this choice - sometimes the best they can hope for is male-styled female clothes, not masculine clothes, before people start giving them a hard time. :p

[Satrana]

Women don't always have this choice - sometimes the best they can hope for is male-styled female clothes, not masculine clothes, before people start giving them a hard time. :p Well thats still better than no choice at all.

Just watched a dvd of the Golden Voyage of Sinbad - now that is one sexy sea captain in his Arabic outfit, puts poor Captain Jack Sparrow to shame.:heehee:

[CaptLex]

Just watched a dvd of the Golden Voyage of Sinbad - now that is one sexy sea captain in his Arabic outfit, puts poor Captain Jack Sparrow to shame.:heehee:
:OT:

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Satrana . . . NOBODY is sexier than Capt. Jack . . . 52473:daydreaming:

[brylram]

Yes most men do go outside their traditional roles but not all. Macho men base their masculinity on being anti-feminine, meaning they are the exact opposite of anything which could be considered feminine.

Even a teeny 'slip' would place them outside of the role of 'uber-male'... and even so, macho men are only one view of 'real' men. Many people would consider a real man to be a man who could be aggressive and provide protection, yet still be soft and gentle (and many would disagree). And none of those people would agree on ever detail of what a tough but gentle man would be. Everyone is transgender because there is no solid male or female as genders... they're constantly in flux, even on a minute-to-minute basis. A man who is a real man in his own mind one minute may do something that makes him feel as though he has accidentaly slipped in that role the next, and he may be percieved by others as an absurd charicature rather than a man at all, at any time.

[privateperks]

I 'm not a CD so I wouldn't know. Dressing in male clothes is just part of who I am its not a thrill thing or a fetish thing.

FtM's lesbians trying to fit into the lesbian community? Sorry, but I really don't think so. From personal experience I know there's a diference between a tomboy or a butch lesbian going into a gay bar and hoping to pick up a date and someone who is totally trying to present herself as male right down to a male name and a soft packy trying to go to a gay bar and pick up a lesbian date - the second one doesn't work from what I've seen. Also - there seems to be a slight confusion with gender and sexuality here. Not all FtM crossdressers are lesbians, bit of a stereotype I think.

:2c:

[SirTrey]

I 'm not a CD so I wouldn't know. Dressing in male clothes is just part of who I am its not a thrill thing or a fetish thing.

FtM's lesbians trying to fit into the lesbian community? Sorry, but I really don't think so. From personal experience I know there's a diference between a tomboy or a butch lesbian going into a gay bar and hoping to pick up a date and someone who is totally trying to present herself as male right down to a male name and a soft packy trying to go to a gay bar and pick up a lesbian date - the second one doesn't work from what I've seen. Also - there seems to be a slight confusion with gender and sexuality here. Not all FtM crossdressers are lesbians, bit of a stereotype I think.

:2c:

That is right on the money...Not all FTM's are lesbians...I'm not...I am attracted to the female gender, but not the female sex...My partner is a male who floats female....We simply live the roles that we are on the inside, not the ones that biology assigned to us...**Tracy**

[Satrana]

Everyone is transgender because there is no solid male or female as genders... they're constantly in flux, even on a minute-to-minute basis. That is the important point in the whole discussion, gender is a social construct, by itself it is a meaningless set of rules that only serve to give comfort and direction to others. Belief in gender as a natural construct is the problem we all essentially face as anyone who deviates significantly is automatically defined as unnatural.



:OT:

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Satrana . . . NOBODY is sexier than Capt. Jack . . .

Ok CaptLex, set up a new thread and we shall duel to the death who is the sexier pirate. Be prepared to walk the plank

[Albtraum]

I have to echo Satrana's sentiments. You may very well find as many reasons as the number of people you ask.

Everyone should be comfortable in their own skin. If you're a petite woman, you'll never pull off The Rock look. Tall guys will never be stunt doubles for Demi Moore.

If your mind changes, change with it!

Maybe I don't have a right to say anything, because I've never faced these problems. As the old song says, if it feels good do it/do it good if it's what you feel.

Peace