Social Value of CDed Self

[Tree GG]

Subtitle: "What Has 'She' Done For Me Lately?"

These thoughts are mainly for hetero CDs in family relationships built in male mode who are searching to successfully incorporate their TGness into those relationships, but any are free to comment of course.

I have come to believe that a CD, by the act of CDing, is not emulating, imitating or wanting to be a 21st century female. Most really have no concept of what that means or its complexities- myself included. They are trying to create a person from their mind/soul that they believe is female because they believe "male" is in conflict with their own definition of who they are inside (whether that self-definition was created by parents, friends, society or hormone wash is irrelevant). In other words, if there were a 3rd or 4th choice (other than just male or female), dressing like 3rd or 4th may serve the purpose better. But since nature decided two genders was sufficient, that's the choices we get. The dressed, fully expressing CD can be somewhat offensive to modern women as it trivializes a woman's value to the superficial and says you can only express set A of emotions if you appear to be gender F - and conversely, gender F can't express emotion set B because....well that just isn't done. Any semi-feminist will play the BS card here.

So for the sake of argument, let's say a MTF CD is not trying to be a woman in the broad natural/ecosystem sense. He is actually trying to be another part of himself, part of the individual in the shell, that for whatever reason he felt must remain hidden. Up to this point in his life (wherever that may be), it has remained hidden and his spouse, family and children have built their lives based on their understanding of him. He has always hidden from them (at least part of time) but he has conducted himself in varying degrees of involvement in their lives. I believe that many CDs, however, have kept their relationships at arm's length to avoid the secret being found out, even if they really, really wanted closer contact/involvement with their loved ones.

So now they come out. This is who I've always been. If you love me, you'll love this, otherwise you don't really love me. Again, I'll play the BS card. The "known man" was never over-padded, over-made-up, or over-dressed in the experience of their loved ones until now. OK, it's just clothes. Absolutely. But what does your CDed self do when dressed? Do you continue to perform the functions you did in drab or shun them altogether and expect them to wait until you're not CDed? Do you continue to keep relationships at arm's length and hide? Where is the day-to-day, non-emotional, logistically in tune value of your CDed self? Would you still squash the bug (figuritively, please)?

And if you've never been really close to your family (although longing to be), should it not be reasonable for the family to expect to see this increased sensitivity from you in male form before you introduce the full CDed self? Why should they accept this new & improved version if the old version comes & goes without any consistancy of involvement/intimacy/closeness? In my experience, the CDed male is so enthralled with his CDed self, that the nuturing/caring they profess to be capable of is only focused on themselves. When asked why they want to pass, many say they want to shop and lunch and be seen and admired as a beauty. Self-centered goals - which is not a bad thing in and of itself - but is it even possible for a MTF to crossdress and NOT focus on "her"? You have a role in the relationship dynamics that has been created pre-CD; by avoiding the pre-existing role, are you not, in a way, dismissing what they do know and love as unimportant? No one is in a relationship for the complete benefit of the other - what does your CD'd self offer your family that the male self does not?

Let's sum up this essay by asking, when dressed, how do you, or how would you like to interact in the at-home, family environment?

For any who made it thru this, thanks and you have a high boredom tolerance. :heehee:

[melissacd]

Tree,

Once again I am in awe of your prose. I will do my best to offer my own humble thoughts.

I have hidden and repressed my CD side for most of my life and that has definitely had a huge impact on how I have lived and related to this world of people I interact with, especially my immediate family.

Mine was a journey of self acceptance and then bit by bit a need to move that self acceptance out into the world in the form of going out dressed and building friendships with others in the TG community. I needed to find that place of acceptance and sense of normalcy. Through this process I recognized a whole array of personality components within myself, some good, some not so good.

Through much of my life I felt off-balance, angry and unsettled. As I began to connect with the more femme components of myself I saw a shift in my being to a better state of equilibrium. I understand that bringing forward my feminine side does not make me anywhere near being female nor do I want to be. That is not who I am. I am a male who has a wide palette of personality components. However, accepting and embracing my femme side has allowed me to re-balance my personality and relate to myself and to those around me in a better way (not always a good way).

My (ex) wife found out about my dressing in the worst possible way ten years ago, by accident and after 15 years of being together. Males with a femme side did not and never will fit within her definition of what is acceptable in a partner. So in spite of the growing re-balance of my personality and its benefits, all of that improvement was overshadowed by her inability to get past her two state view of gender and the boundaries between them that neither crosses.

So has this all affected my family relationships? Yes, in many deep and profound and mostly negative ways to date. It ended my 25 year marriage and although my children do not know about this part of me (yet) it created a huge barrier between us and a lot of emotional baggage. I was there physically but not emotionally, as a father. I will have to find my way through all of this to get back to them. This rift developed as a side effect of the negative relationship with my ex. Instead of dealing with it we tried to carry on as if all were normal and went through a decade of having huge communication and emotional walls between us. While we went through the mechanics of being a family, the lack of closeness and true emotional bonding changed the course of my children's lives in ways that will always haunt me.

The most un-selfish thing that I can do is to leave the house, find my own place and be true to who I am. I believe that through being out of here and away from my ex that all of my relationships will greatly improve and my relationship with my children will start to re-build. I cannot make up for all of the emotional distance of the past ten years, however, I can start with today to show them that in spite of it all I am still their father, that I am still there for them and that I love them very deeply.

My cross dressing path has been a very difficult one as I am sure that it is for many. It has had a high price in terms of emotional, physical and financial loss. Most of that was as a result of my not accepting who I was so long ago. Had I been raised as a child to accept that difference, had I been appreciated instead of condemned for that difference, that uniqueness, then perhaps so much in my life would have been different and perhaps more positive. Now that I do accept that part of myself, whether others do or not, means that I can start to make choices every day that are positive and life enhancing.

Is cross dressing a selfish choice, perhaps it is. Is accepting that that is a part of who you are, I now see that there is no choice but to accept that part and allow it to manifest itself in the most positive way that it can. By being true to ourselves we can in turn be true to others in our lives and then perhaps things start to get better for everyone.

Huggs
Melissa

[susie evans]

that was a lot of information to soke up at one time but i will give some serious thought and coment thanks

susie

[Mary Morgan]

Tree, you make so many good points that I do not know where to begin so I will deal with just a couple of issues. First, I would never pretend to know how anyone else feels, or why they behave the way they do. I must admit that I am fascinated by the number of crossdressers and transgender individuals that there are. I would love it if there were a way to do a demographic study, but I suspect we would find it is just part of the human condition. Second, I think most of us would have to plead guilty to your criticisms about the selfishness of crossdressing, but I would offer the following: Everyone wants to survive, thrive, and be happy. I knew as a small child that I was different. I didn't know why or how different. I wanted to be loved and accepted, to thrive and be happy. I found that for me the path was one of denying how I felt and to conform. This is how I have spent most of my life. I imagine it is how many people spend most of their lives. Through the process of growing, learning, aging, loosing loved ones, finding new ones, I have changed many of my attitudes and beliefs. I now believe I am worthy, that I can be myself and still be a good and loving person to my family and friends. I am no longer interested in maintaining the big lie, one that I feel was forced on me in the first place. On the other hand, I believe my wife and all of my friends also deserve to feel the same way, to thrive and be happy and I tell them so. If I can be a part of that, I want to be. If I am an obstacle to that, then it is time to stop the lies, confront our differences and compromise or move on. I guess my real issue is that it is not the dressing, it is the person inside the clothes. We need to focus on who we are and how we behave, not how we look or what we wear. As for whether or not we want to be women, I think I would love to be like a woman on the inside, but I would need to be invited into the inner circle and embraced as worthy before I would know. Thank you for your stimulating thoughts as always. Your Friend, Mary Louise

[Tree GG]

Thanks for the responses so far. If more arrive in this tone, this should prove to be a very informative thread for me.

One trend I see that I would like to steer clear of is the focus on the "self-centered"comment I made. I am not criticising CDs as being selfish over-all. I do believe it is an agreed upon characteristic of CDing, but certainly not the whole. I am not trying to make a value judgement of right/wrong or should/shouldn't.

Realizing that you can't go back and un-do anything, what I'd like to focus on is now that you are out, can the dressed CD be a good husband, father, son, brother, etc or are those roles doomed to die? What does your dressed personna bring to the table that your male self does not when trying to integrate dressing into the family life? What, if anything, can your immediate family expect to go away? When looking logically (I know that's crazy when these are such emotional issues), when approaching children, or spouse or family with the "I am a crossdresser" talk, what do you think you can sell them on "her" that makes acceptance of "her" an attractive proposition that could encourage them to accept, learn and appreciate?

[Kate Simmons]

What you say makes a lot of sense and is not boring at all. There is no social value per se of CDing in itself. The value is in the person. Self acceptance, working with that and embracing that go a long way in realizing who we really are as a person. Only then can we put it in it's proper perspective and build our relationships and friendships. Unfortunately, for many, it takes a long time to realize this and for some it never happens. The skill, it seems, is to use it as an advantage that we control and not see it as a disadvantage that controls us.:happy:

[Mary Morgan]

1. Realizing that you can't go back and un-do anything, what I'd like to focus on is now that you are out, can the dressed CD be a good husband, father, son, brother, etc or are those roles doomed to die?

I am the product of all that I have been and all that I have done. If I did those things well, I am to be seen as virtuous and expected to continue to be those things. If I failed at those things, wouldn't you want me to do better?

2. What does your dressed personna bring to the table that your male self does not when trying to integrate dressing into the family life?

Perhaps nothing, perhaps everything that is missing now. When one is whole, when one feels good about themselves, when one receives acceptance from others, they will do almost anything to keep that goodness going.

3. What, if anything, can your immediate family expect to go away?

Relationships are a mirror. If you are comfortable, you will give comfort. If you are unhappy, you will sow unhappiness.

4. When looking logically (I know that's crazy when these are such emotional issues), when approaching children, or spouse or family with the "I am a crossdresser" talk, what do you think you can sell them on "her" that makes acceptance of "her" an attractive proposition that could encourage them to accept, learn and appreciate?

What is required to make peace or become comfortable with any new or evolving person , situation or experience? Remove the fog of prejudice and ignorance, and expect, no require the other person to do the same.

Individuals are responsible for their actions, no matter what equipment they come with.

[Jaydee]

Wow, thanks Tree for a very interesting and thought provoking thread. I am still deeply hidden in the closet. For me, I never understood my desires to wear clothing associated with women for the last 40 years. It is only within the last couple years that I am coming to accept my self. I am not ready to ask my family to accept a new "self". But, I think that the feminine sensitive aspects of my personality have always been visible to anyone who cared to look. I work in what was traditionally a very macho type career field. While I have been successful, I have never truely fit the mode. It is difficult to keep up appearances. In my personal life, having been married for over 31 years, I think the sensitive and caring aspects of my personality have never been hidden. I always felt that I was a caring husband and father, more so than it appeared was the norm. I never felt the need to repress these aspects of my personality.
I am comming to accept that the crossdressing(in secret), allows me to rebalance and center myself. It is something I do for my self. It provides a comfort, from having to "play the part". I don't believe that I will ever go out dressed. While it would certainly be easier for me if my wife knew, I don't know if that is neccessary. She will surely know someday. I know that what I will NOT do is jump out of the closet and shout "Here is the new me. Accept me or else".

Jaydee

[Dita_B]

Subtitle: "What Has 'She' Done For Me Lately?"

Let's sum up this essay by asking, when dressed, how do you, or how would you like to interact in the at-home, family environment?

Hell no, I disagree. I see your point(s), but I have a total different view on this issue.

Did you ever read the books from Don Miguel Ruiz? Like: "The Four Agreements; The Mastery of Love" and "The Voice of Knowledge"? I doubt it...

Let me Quote from "The Voice of Knowledge" page 26 to make my point:

All of the drama humans suffer is the result of believing in lies, mainly about ourselves. The first lie we believe in is: I am not:I am not the way I should be, I am not perfect. The truth is that every human being is born perfect because only perfection exists.

In a relationship I am only responsible for my half of that relationship, my spouse is responsible for her half. I cannot cause her to be happy if she decides not to be happy, it's her choice. And that has nothing to do with being self centered.

IMHO you are still struggling with society's expectation of the male role, the stereotype of the male role. And when the male role is not played out according to the stereotype, you are portraying yourself and the female population in general as victims.

Well, I am not buying into the victimizing guilt trip. A cross dressing husband and father is still a husband and father, nothing has changed, he's still the same person. He only dresses differently. If that clashes with the stereotype that society has build around that, than it is time society at large wakes up to a changing of the norm. Face the facts.

Self centered? Is someone who is seeking his/her true identity self centered? Is someone who tries to find out who he/she really is, self centered? From the point of view of the victim...yes. But who is really self centered by making that statement? Do we not have the right to express ourselves the way we want? Any infringement on someone's right to expression is interference with that right.

We remain hidden because society at large has a problem with the issue. Well society has to change its views because the issue is not going away. We are not going to stop cross dressing because society has some catching up to do. We are spearheading a movement and building critical mass. Once reached, the balance will tip to full acceptance as history has proven time and again...

And to answer your last question in regards to interaction in the home/family environment: I would like to keep playing my role as head of the family. I am still the same person, but acting from my female self, which is softer, more gentile and more emotional than my male self. Both personalities live in me and I like the female personality more than the male one, and my family agrees. They only disagree with seeing that female personality in female clothing. But that has only to do with their conditioning/stereotyping.

So in resume, who and what has to change? It is the view of the others around us that has to change to adapt to the new situation. If they refuse to adapt and chose to hang on to the old they have a problem, not the cross dresser. The cross dresser exercises his/her un-alienated right to express him/her self.

I rest my case.

Love you all, beautiful people. :love:Dita.

[KandisTX]

Tree GG,

I'm going to make this simple and just answer this final question of your essay/question.



Let's sum up this essay by asking, when dressed, how do you, or how would you like to interact in the at-home, family environment?

I do dress as Kandis at home, and my family (wife and daughter) do not treat me any differant than they do when I am not dressed as Kandis. I think, and my daughter has confirmed, that since my coming out to her our relationship has grown as she feels I can relate to her better since I do in fact crossdress. My wife has known since long before we were married and therefore Kandis is seen as just another facet of the gem she calls her husband.

Kandis:love:

[Emily Ann Brown]

I'll be a woman of few words.....I want to continue being who I am but as a female. I can still do household repairs and such in jeans and a Tshirt and flat shoes, maybe with my hair tied back. I would hope to be treated as a member of the family (saying that noting all my kids are grown and my EX is gone).


Emily Ann

[RylieCD]

Tree,
Thank you for this thread, As a CD I do not wish to change who I am on the inside. My wife is the only one who knows, and she asks how far this will go? and for my it is a very confusing question because I have read other posts that ask if society is acceoting will a CD continue and the general answer is no, heck i think that would be my invitation to venture out. Like I said I do not want to change the person inside, I do not have children but I have always thought of myself as being a good father someday. My wife told me that she fell inlove with me because I was a more gentle man than others, was this a result of being a CD????

[Claudia Zylindrias]

My own point of view and one that seems to follow the somewhat twisted logic that defines me is thus. I'm the same way weather i dressed in male or female clothing. In fact I have been asked such questions several times by either starngers or close friends and everyone in between. Some don't ask, just pigeon hole me in the enffemiante guy with alpha male tendencies box. Others with the Somewhat stright metrosexual box. Whatever the classification is one constant remains; ME. I have children they all know and they all realized that even if i' wearing a skirt. When they act up, i will correct them. The aspects of me that are stronger when i dressed are always there. I am not trying to become a woman (TS), i am simply a CROSSDRESSER(CD). I like wearing the clothes, the colors, textures, style, etc. 450 years ago, i would have been fine, today some people would like to make fun of me. However i stated before that i have alpha male tendencies, those few that have been negative, i have challeged physically. All of them backed down. Maybe it helps that i'm confident in my abilities and traits. None of them are ever suppressed i am me always. In silks or denim or uniform. I will always fight for the freedom of expression and the right that all people that do not hurt others or themselves in anyway should have the right to live there lives. May the bells of libery ring freely and loudly and to those that would stop the bell, you cannot outrun my AR-4.

[Toyah]

[quote=Tree GG;965639]Subtitle: "What Has 'She' Done For Me Lately?"

These thoughts are mainly for hetero CDs in family relationships built in male mode who are searching to successfully incorporate their TGness into those relationships, but any are free to comment of course.

I have come to believe that a CD, by the act of CDing, is not emulating, imitating or wanting to be a 21st century female. Most really have no concept of what that means or its complexities- myself included. The dressed, fully expressing CD can be somewhat offensive to modern women as it trivializes a woman's value to the superficial and says you can only express set A of emotions if you appear to be gender F - and conversely, gender F can't express emotion set B because....well that just isn't done. Any semi-feminist will play the BS card here.

I agree to a point with the above in that I think most CDs dont see how offensive they can be by imposing themselves on the world. As for the expressing the feminine side thingy I have never quite got that and dont feel I need to do it . I do adore the clothes and started on makeup because frankly a bloke in a skirt is not a pretty sight . I honestly dont think I do it to express a feminine side although you are right in that I can forget day to day life dressed.

As for hiding being a CD yup do that to everyone but my wife and a few shopkeepers, why ?????? because i dont want the piss ripped out of me for something that only occupies a small part of my time and is fun for me. I certainly do not intend to Present Toyah to the world apart from a small number of CD events

So now they come out. This is who I've always been. If you love me, you'll love this, otherwise you don't really love me. Again, I'll play the BS card.

I agree totally with this for most CDs if you know your wife / SO will not like it stop now or leave her/ him !!!! whats the point in carrying on if something you find so important is hidden from her.
Whenever my wife does not want to see Toyah she does not, Toyah does not come out to play. Thats the other thing if your SO sets rules abide by them otherwise you are asking for trouble


And if you've never been really close to your family (although longing to be), should it not be reasonable for the family to expect to see this increased sensitivity from you in male form before you introduce the full CDed self? Why should they accept this new & improved version if the old version comes & goes without any consistancy of involvement/intimacy/closeness? In my experience, the CDed male is so enthralled with his CDed self, that the nuturing/caring they profess to be capable of is only focused on themselves. When asked why they want to pass, many say they want to shop and lunch and be seen and admired as a beauty. Self-centered goals - which is not a bad thing in and of itself - but is it even possible for a MTF to crossdress and NOT focus on "her"? You have a role in the relationship dynamics that has been created pre-CD; by avoiding the pre-existing role, are you not, in a way, dismissing what they do know and love as unimportant? No one is in a relationship for the complete benefit of the other - what does your CD'd self offer your family that the male self does not?

S not gonna happen

Let's sum up this essay by asking, when dressed, how do you, or how would you like to interact in the at-home, family environment.

I dress we watch telly cuddle have a meal etc.
I chat online and meet lots of interesting weird people like me :thumbsup:

[KellyCD]

what does your CD'd self offer your family that the male self does not?


What does your dressed personna bring to the table that your male self does not when trying to integrate dressing into the family life?

When looking logically (I know that's crazy when these are such emotional issues), when approaching children, or spouse or family with the "I am a crossdresser" talk, what do you think you can sell them on "her" that makes acceptance of "her" an attractive proposition that could encourage them to accept, learn and appreciate?


What has "she" done for me.......

Let me tell you something. I CAN STILL be a good father, husband and productive member of society NO MATTER HOW I'M DRESSED. I WILL NOT try to prove my worth as a person to you, or anyone else for that matter from how I dress.

What can I bring to the table? Try open-mindedness. The acceptance of ALL people for WHO they are and NOT based on GENDER/race/sexual orientation/height/weight/musical preference/CLOTHING PREFERENCE/etc.

What can my male side bring the the table that my femme self cannot??

Hmmm???

NOTHING

I am equal no matter what I wear and am no better OR worse at anything that I do because I am a CD.

When I put on a skirt is it for me? When I buy a Music CD is that for me? When I goto the store and pick up vanilla ice cream because I love vanilla is that for me? just because i do something for myself doesn't mean I have to equal it out by doing something for someone else. Or by doing something for myself in male mode.

I don't dress for other people's benefit or pleasure. I do it for myself.

Call it self-centered.

Call it self-enthralled.

Call it whatever you wish.

I don't care.

[DonnaT]

My CDed self is no different than my drab self. I am who I am and don't try to pretend otherwise. I don't act any different based on how I'm dressed.

I think this is one reason why my wife and son have no problem with my dressing at home (even though my wife wishes I didn't CD, it's not an issue when I do). I reckon they see it as simply a change in attire, not a change in the person or personality.

[Marcie Sexton]

Food for thought...interesting, although I think you're seeking something that isn't really there...for me atleast !

Some time back I came to grips witht he fact that I was indeed a Cd/Ts or any other name or lable you want to attach to it, It isn't so much I want to be a woman, it is I am a woman, or in my mind, and that is all that is important. I sought and got acceptance from my wife who fully supports me. On more than one occasion she has ask me what my intentions are, they are and will remain to be the man I was born. That is not to say that perhaps 25 or 30 years ago had I come to grips with who I really am that I wouldn't have sought gender reassignement.

So for now I am satisfied with me as I am...A loving husband, faithful partner, close girl friend to my wife, so how much better could life be...

While wanting to learn and understand us looking though the eyes of a GG, we or atleast some us are seeing exactly what you see from the same perspective, be it in form of a male body...

Let me add that this is the very reason we all need to be able to talk in a forum where we all share a common factor...It is such a shame that there aren't more support groups that provide just that oppurtunity...and perhaps I am kidding myself, but I would like to sit and pick your brain just as you would like to pick mine just if for no other reason to better understand each other and in turn gain a different type of respect and understanding for each other...

[battybattybats]

I have come to believe that a CD, by the act of CDing, is not emulating, imitating or wanting to be a 21st century female. Most really have no concept of what that means or its complexities- myself included.

But what is a 21st century female? An average or a mean? The lowest common denominator? A demeaning sterotype perhaps?

Is it the manipulative sexist who wants all the value of female privilidge 'because I'm a girl' while demanding access to male privilidge?

Is it the smart woman acting as a vapid airhead because it helps them in their career or social life?

The fashion fascist who judges everyones worth on how well they ascribe to the latest cuts and colours?

The woman who smiles on the surface while scheming to undercut her friends at every turn?

Certainly the smart assertive woman who doesn't hide her mental prowess and expects equality while also respecting other men and women, seems definately old fashioned. More end of the 20th century.

But these things vary from place to place and proportions differ. All are at best crude generalisations.

And what are these complexities? Are they cultural constructs or biologically determined?


They are trying to create a person from their mind/soul that they believe is female because they believe "male" is in conflict with their own definition of who they are inside (whether that self-definition was created by parents, friends, society or hormone wash is irrelevant).

Perhaps some are but then some are not. Some will be trying to enjoy things which the cultural restraints of their own genders peer forces dissallow which are much more freely available to the opposite gender. In those cases it is not what they themselves view as female, but what the blokes at the barbecue or the hardware store would call them (excuse the Australian common vernacular here) a 'Bl**dy P**fta' for.

Then there are folk who throughout their lives might long to try things worn by or done by the women and girls around them. This is a relation to specific exdternal things rather than an internal conceptualisation.


In other words, if there were a 3rd or 4th choice (other than just male or female), dressing like 3rd or 4th may serve the purpose better. But since nature decided two genders was sufficient, that's the choices we get.

But other times and other cultures allow/ed much broader self expression for men and notions of more than two genders. Where has the dandy gone? Their are suits of knights armour with skirts and bustlines built on to allow for feminine expression even in the midst of war! Lots of other cultures had 3 or more sexes.

And I should point out that (outside of pagan personifications) nature decides nothing. What survives breeds, what adapts to changing circumstances survives. The genetic heritage of those things that survive determine a lot but that is often as much by accident as anything else like survival value (as recent discoveries of 'genetic drift' underscores nicely).

There are plenty of life forms on earth with more complicated genders or lack of them. And while we are descended from types with two distinct chromosomal arrangements the degree of the expression of this is staggeringly broad as one neurologist put it on a debate about findings on the differences of male and female brains on the SBS discussion show Insight earlier this year: "The differences between any two people of the same gender are vastly greater than the differences between male and female."


The dressed, fully expressing CD can be somewhat offensive to modern women as it trivializes a woman's value to the superficial and says you can only express set A of emotions if you appear to be gender F - and conversely, gender F can't express emotion set B because....well that just isn't done. Any semi-feminist will play the BS card here.

Hmm.. interesting notion. If the CD requires to dress to then feel feminine emotions that would certainly reflect sexist notions pf superficial femininity. On the other hand if the CD dresses because they feel feminine emotions then that is not demeaning but does reflect a possibly sexist notion of clothing and gender. If the CD dresses because they like wearing clothes or having an appearance that is set aside for the opposite gender then the sexism would be from the restriction of those clothes to only one gender. If the CD dresses in such a way to be free to enjoy experiences that are taboo for their own gender then the sexism comes from having some things that are taboo for males yet acceptable for a (passing) CD.

However as clothing is mostly gender specific, as many males have desires to experience things that are taboo for males, as many males feel that they exist in the broad gulf between the gender stereotypes then it is the notion of gender extremes, gender immutability, male taboos and the trivialisation of both genders but especially males as concrete roles that is sexist and demeaning. That would mean that CD rights are a pro-feminist goal. Wouldn't it also mean that any restriction of males adopting anything considered feminine is anti feminist and sexist.

Following the notions of equality and the harm of stereotyping, feminism should clearly dictate that the destruction of male stereotypes, the destruction of male taboos, the destruction of negative and restrictive extremes of gender etc are all neccessary parts of achieving gender equality and freedom.


So now they come out. This is who I've always been. If you love me, you'll love this, otherwise you don't really love me. Again, I'll play the BS card. The "known man" was never over-padded, over-made-up, or over-dressed in the experience of their loved ones until now.

Hmm... an argument could be made that there is a moral duty for the family to accept and understand any previously hidden or even new aspect of a member of that family. Family love is often idealised as unconditional love. If so (and the rest of this argument flows from this idea) then is the son comes out as gay? Yep, they should be accepted. Wife decides she wants to return to her career or higher education. Yep, even if the whole family routine and roles need to be restructured around it. Examples abound. As it is immoral for the family to have a claim over a member that would prevent them from the full expression of themselves or preventing change and growth then clearly it is (from this argument) the moral duty of the family to accept aspects of the husband (or wife for that matter) that they previously were unable to express or have only recently discovered. Often people idealise family members via there role in the family, in which case the view of that family member is not as a human being but instead as a concrete point of referance and a social structure. A friend once argued that it is only when you discover, as a boy or man, that your father is fallible, is not the strongest, that you can do some things better than he, that you truly learn to love him as a human being instead of as a superficial shell. If this is not the case, then at what point is it ok to force someone into(or have an expectation that they remain within) a restricted set of freedoms beyond their direct (ie parental) responsibilities? Surely it is an immoral expectation that another person should remain unchanging so that they maintain all the qualities, and posses no new ones, that they have previoisly come to be identified with. In fact wouldn't failing to come to terms with such change be an act of bad faith (from an existentialist use of the word) as the simple raveges of time alone will render enough change that those who have failed to learn to cope with such change will be more strongly devestated by the ageing or natural deaths of family members?


OK, it's just clothes. Absolutely. But what does your CDed self do when dressed? Do you continue to perform the functions you did in drab or shun them altogether and expect them to wait until you're not CDed? Do you continue to keep relationships at arm's length and hide? Where is the day-to-day, non-emotional, logistically in tune value of your CDed self? Would you still squash the bug (figuritively, please)?

Hmm.. again interesting. If the functions of the CD are gender based (and therefore probably sexist) in a way accepted by the family unit then it would be inappropriate for the person to continue such functions. If there are no others of that gender to perform those functions then those functions should remain undone until the original gender aspects are resumed. If, on the other hand, those functions are not gender based in the family but are individual specific then it would be innapropriate for the CD to take on a sexist gender based set of functions.

Or more simply, if in the family boys do construction, repairs and bug squashing while girls do cooking, cleaning and screaming at bug appearances then yes, the CD should change their functions and work while dressed. However if this is not the case and these functions are not gender based then nothing should change. For those families where functions are sexist this would be good, the CD learning how much work goes into cooking and cleaning etc and perhaps the women learning to deal with mice, bugs, clogged drains etc themselves.


And if you've never been really close to your family (although longing to be), should it not be reasonable for the family to expect to see this increased sensitivity from you in male form before you introduce the full CDed self? Why should they accept this new & improved version if the old version comes & goes without any consistancy of involvement/intimacy/closeness?

Well the answer is simple. Most people are sexist. Their views are deeply ingrained. It can take a very long time for them to overcome this sexism. Again people are fallible at people must accept that this is the case.


In my experience, the CDed male is so enthralled with his CDed self, that the nuturing/caring they profess to be capable of is only focused on themselves. When asked why they want to pass, many say they want to shop and lunch and be seen and admired as a beauty.

I can only speculate but perhaps that self-nurturing is one of the needs for which they dress? Perhaps they never felt nurtured as a male (a common enough experience for males). Only speculation mind.


Self-centered goals - which is not a bad thing in and of itself - but is it even possible for a MTF to crossdress and NOT focus on "her"?

Yes. Though practically only after the clothes and makeup have finished being put on. Once dressed the answer is yes.


You have a role in the relationship dynamics that has been created pre-CD; by avoiding the pre-existing role, are you not, in a way, dismissing what they do know and love as unimportant?

Not neccessarily. Escaping from a pre-existing role, one that may be monotonous or resrictive or even if not, might be a neccessary way to maintain an interest in that role (like needing a break from work). Also just because the person steps out of the previous role that does not mean they cease to love the people that the role serves. The emotional ties should remain, the care and value should be unaltered. Just as a person is more than their career, a person is more than their role inside a family. By reducing a persons value in the family to the practicalities of their pragmatic service to that family isn't that demeaning and dismissing the person to nothing more than a cog in the machine?


No one is in a relationship for the complete benefit of the other - what does your CD'd self offer your family that the male self does not?

Yike! If a person needs to justify any specific aspect of their self with it's value to others then it's time for them to flee! Surely it should be enough that a person does not fail in their duty to nurture themselves and to provide their fair share of efforts for the nurturing of others and for mutual benefit? The state and the family exists for the benefit of the citizens/family members and certainly not the other way round. So long as each does their fair share that is it. If the CDing offers nothing at all to anybody but the CDer what of it? What does the sons piano practise or the daughters football games offer the family? Should the son only study for the family business? Should the daughter be expected to give up her career to look after the senile grandfather? How does the gay sons sexuality offer to the family if he isn't propagating it's particular combination of dna?

Toyah said:
I agree to a point with the above in that I think most CDs dont see how offensive they can be by imposing themselves on the world.

How is it intrinsically offensive though? If a gay couple hold hands in publicis it intrinsically offensive? What about an interacial couple? If someone feels offended at the sight of an Orthodox Jew or a Muslim woman wearing a headscarf who is in fact offended and who offensive?


Thats the other thing if your SO sets rules abide by them otherwise you are asking for trouble

And what rules is it fair to impose on ones SO in return? Or is it just ok for the more mainstream person to limit the minority? It's one thing for an SO to determine how much and in what way she is involved in the dressing (her freedom of choice), it's the other side of the ethical line for them to decide how much and in what way the dressing occurs (restricting the freedom of another).
Great thread.
:hugs: for everyone

[Satrana]

They are trying to create a person from their mind/soul that they believe is female because they believe "male" is in conflict with their own definition of who they are inside You got it. The root of this is the initial discomfort about certain aspects of masculinity which made us reach out and encompass the alternative - femininity which traditionally is the polar opposite of masculinity. So whatever aspects of masculinity we dislike we are guaranteed to find the the qualities we seek in femininity.


I believe that many CDs, however, have kept their relationships at arm's length to avoid the secret being found out, even if they really, really wanted closer contact/involvement with their loved ones. Yes an unfortunate consequence of being forced into the closet. Boys do not have an option, it is the only survival choice we can make and the result is a man who routinely seeks to maintain a certain distance from others to ensure his guilty secret is never revealed.



So now they come out. This is who I've always been. If you love me, you'll love this, otherwise you don't really love me. No, do not agree with this. CDs are extremely aware that people hate feminine men and that wives want normal masculine men they can be proud of. When husbands come out of the closet they are seeking tolerance and hopefully acceptance. They are only hoping that their wife is that 1 in a thousand woman who actually loves the whole idea. Hope springs eternal, that is why people buy a lottery ticket every week, they know they will not win but they can dream.



Where is the day-to-day, non-emotional, logistically in tune value of your CDed self? In order to achieve this degree of normalcy the CDer would have to have complete freedom to dress as he wanted so that his femme self could be normalized as part of his regular personality. Only a few are in this position, most remain stuck grabbing a few hours here and there and living under rules and restrictions. Expecting normalcy and full integration under these typical conditions is expecting too much.

A child does not mature into an adult by being kept inside behind closed curtains never meeting others, never being encouraged to venture out and explore their feelings, never being accepted by others.


And if you've never been really close to your family (although longing to be), should it not be reasonable for the family to expect to see this increased sensitivity from you in male form before you introduce the full CDed self?
Reasonable from other's point of view but impossible from the CDer's. His masculine form follows the rules and regulations of male code, this is been a key strategy to keep the guilty secret under wraps. By doing so the CDer has decisively separated masculine and feminine qualities between his two selves. He ends up only being able to access feminine qualities by crossdressing. This is why I believe it is important that CDers are able to crossdress frequently and without undue restrictions so that they can get back in touch with their feelings and reintegrate the two selves into one whole.




Self-centered goals - which is not a bad thing in and of itself - but is it even possible for a MTF to crossdress and NOT focus on "her"? Again this is a function of the divide which CDers create by allotting their en femme selves with all their feminine values. Also it is a function of enjoying yourself to the full because you only have a limited time crossdressed, especially for example in public.

This is like asking a woman who only occasionally gets to go to a formal event in a glorious ball gown and diamond jewelry. Notice how self-centered women are in this example, they would be preparing for days, weeks ahead and it would all be about the gown, the hair, the make-up, the shoes etc. And while she was at the event she would be self-conscious the whole time about her appearance. The entire focus would be on her.

For CDers, every time they crossdress, especially in public, it is like going to a ball in a gown. To get over this, the CDers need the freedom to crossdress so that the familiarity and repetitiveness of the dressing removes the focus from the appearance and would allow the CDer to focus on others and not on himself.


Let's sum up this essay by asking, when dressed, how do you, or how would you like to interact in the at-home, family environment? Is that not the whole problem, the lack of interaction at home? The indifference, animosity and secrecy most CDers face at home prevents the development of a family orientated CDer at ease with himself so that he can focus on others. When SOs get fed up of their partners crossdressing and ask themselves why they put up with it when they are not getting anything out of it, is it really all about the crossdresser?

The problem is that crossdressing is an example of a behavior which puts a divide between people. People believe it to be so problematic that they instinctively approach at as a "major problem", a negative blot on the relationship. How often do we hear stories about SOs and other family members welcoming crossdressing behavior as a positive attribute and something to be encouraged so that the CDer's feminine side will bloom and be fully integrated and normalized?

Until people in general accept that it is good for men to be feminine, there won't be "unselfish" CDers who have the luxury not to have to focus on the dressing and can be a healthy whole expressive person.

[Lilith Moon]

Satrana,

Lots of nails on heads !

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, for expressing my POV so much better than I could have done.

:yrtw:

[BarbaraTalbot]

my character irrespective of how I dress. I do not need to "earn" the right to express myself through building a car that pleases me, spending time refinishing furniture, or dressing.

Some people feel more 'transgendered' than I do in which case they have even less to justify to their families.

The CD doesn't need to to "do" anything lately or ever to justify their existence.

The CD needs to be involved and present with their family. They need to love and show support to their spouses and their children. As do their non-CD spouses.

I thought feminist ideals were supposed to be about self reliance both financially and emotionally. You be your kinda strong woman and we'll be ours.

This reminds me of my mother's brand of feminism. She felt no need to be respectful in tone towards my father but demanded he address her in reverential tones. (She didn't ever get that, wonder why?)

She did expect him to earn a good living, felt no requirement in anyway to include him in most of her calculations of household needs and expenditures.

Indoctrinating the next generation, 5 boys were crammed into two bedrooms, then as we grew into three. Two girls shared a room and then eventually got individual rooms, the youngest as early as 7 had her own room in a household of nine. The girls had their own bathroom, which was deemed sanitary enough to share with guests. The cleaning of the bathrooms? Done by boys.

Ironing? Done by me as the oldest boy because it would be repressive to make my older sister do it.

Yard work? Rebuild carburators? Change tires? Replace electrical outlets, clean sink traps? Done by boys.

Dishes, babysitting? Shared equally by boys and girls. Incidentally the youngest girl was nearly always excused from all other chores to tend to her always messy room.The oldest girl was excused if she had studying or babysitting (for others) to do. Such exemptions were not granted males.

So in this house of equality girls had to help with dishes and child care, and clean their own rooms.

Clothing? girls clothes are more important, so boys can get by with just 2 or three pairs of jeans and hand-me-downs where girls require extensive wardrobes updated with trends. Boys Y-front white all white cotton underwear was washed with soiled baby diapers, Girls white all cotton panties are washed with mom's delicates.

Any wonder I envy girls?

You are probably saying hmmm, sounds like SOMEBODY has mother issues. Guilty. My point though is my mother had issues. Having some feminist ideas doesn't mean anyone is living truly feminist ideals and treating people equally and as we would want to be treated.

Crossdressing is a selfish pursuit in that it is about how one feels about ones self. It isn't done to benefit anyone else. In short it isn't about you. It may well affect you, but isn't designed to enhance your life. If you feel you are 'due' some benefit not already available in your marriage in exchange for 'allowing' crossdressing, maybe you are less willing to accept crossdressing than you think you are.

So exactly how 'equal' a semi-feminist do you want to be?

[Marla S]

:worship::worship::worship:

Great thoughts on a great essay.

[Stephenie S]

Why do I dress?

Well, I like it.

But why? Does it make me any different?

No, it doesn't.

So, why? Does it bring anything to the family unit?

Yup! A happy camper. It's like a song in my heart. I am no longer suffocating under the facade of my ultra masculine acts, just to prove to the world I am really a guy in spite of how I feel inside.

But why do I dress in women's clothes?

I think that I dress in women's clothes, not just for me. More importantly, I dress in women's clothes because I want others to relate to me as the woman I know I am. It's like a flag. The clothes are only a signal to others that "here comes a woman". The fact that the clothes are prettier, softer, more attractive, is a bi-product, a really un-needed perc. Most of the time my clothes, while not gender neutral, are pretty low key. I dress just the way GGs around me dress, and in this neck of the woods, that's jeans and nice tops, period.

So, what do I bring to the table?

As I said above, a happier, more centered, (and yes, more emotional) person. Those around me say I have never smiled so much. I function in the family pretty much the same as I did before. I still fix things, I still earn the majority of the money (thank goodness for the medical profession), I still cook and clean and wash. I still do ALL the carpentry and car repair. My dear partner wants NOTHING to do with tools, or grease.

Well, that's the simple answer. I absolutely agree that much of what most CDers do and feel seems a bit self-centered. That is definately an immature part of our world view. I think that as we mature and grow, this should become less a part of us. I feel that many CDers are held back in their developement simply by their inate fear and guilt over their own acts. Helping us all get over this (and over ourselves), is one of my goals here, and in my life.

And I still don't have enough shoes!!!

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Tree,

Very perceptive of you. A lot of what you have said makes sense IF we're are talking about one (or most?) type of crossdressing guy. Basically IMHO the type who tends to switch on and switch off his willingness to embrace the female part of his personality. I do believe that because it's switched off most of the time per day, or per week, when he does switch over into that mental mode he can sometimes become rather obsessed with that thought process ... sometimes to the exclusion of others in his life.

I know you don't want to focus entirely on this but when you say:

In my experience, the CDed male is so enthralled with his CDed self, that the nuturing/caring they profess to be capable of is only focused on themselves
I understand your point and it's a valid one. However, I don 't personally feel this is me, and my wife has told that she feels that I'm not this way either. I'm one of the lucky ones because I'm encouraged by Marla to "show the person who's on the inside on the outside" pretty much almost all of the time to a greater or lesser extent. I'm fortunate that my wife is attracted to feminine men both in nature and appearance.

I feel that I have a strong feminine side to my personality all the time and so I feel like I'm never really in "male mode" ....just degrees of femme-ness (if that’s a word). I'm always wearing something girly and my wife tells me that as far as she is concerned, amongst other guys that she's known, I'm not typical ... both in the way I dress, act and how I interact with other people (including other guys). I know what she means too because I feel I am exactly the same whether I'm dressed fully en femme, partially dressed, or my normal "girly boy mode". I feel more feminine when en femme but I definitely don't "become someone else" or "become enthralled with my CDed self".

So I guess whatever situation you have (if you have a situation?), just happens to be the way it is for you. Do the majority of cders have the attitude you perceive us as having? Who knows? Bearing in mind we all are closeted to a greater or lesser extent, and also the willingness to integrate our femme selves into out normal life and to show this to others varies tremendously from cder to cder, you might be right.


....how would you like to interact in the at-home, family environment?
Apart from dressing en femme more often at home - nothing. I want to just do, say, and be the way I normally am when I'm not dressed en femme.

[Kerry Owens]

I know I'm lucky, Lawren was honest from the very first. The dressing, while we're at home is pretty much 24/7, and undercover when we are outside the home. There are times we get a visitor, I'm the one who answers the door and if necessary I cover for Lawren and keep things on the qt.
If he's relaxing and en femme I schedule stuff for the next day or so, so no biggies hit, unless we both forgot to make notes for a friend we promised to help!
What does he bring? That special unique self and a wickedly hilarious sense of humor and understanding. We discuss, talk and otherwise keep each other on the level about emotional/mental and physical stuff. Knowing I have psych meds(and for a good reason) it's a blessing to have someone who accepts my handicaps and reminds me meds I need.
Heck.....if we're 2 birds with one wing for each of us, we've learned how to fly together.

[Tree GG]

Thank you to all who posted. There are some very interesting, well thought out replies and I appreciate the effort. Other points of view are always enlightening.

To those who think this is about gender or "male role", I may not have expressed the situation clearly. I could care less about gender "roles". As a child born in the 60's, I came along well after the hard feminist battles were fought. Feminism to me is that we're all on the same team, there are no defined roles. I hold the door for my husband if I reach the door 1st - courtesy, not gender role. I have always been the more outgoing socially so I check in at the hotels, make the travel arrangements, coordinate with the organizations for kids activities and am generally the hub in who's going where and the facilitator. I have held the same job for over 20 yrs providing the steady source of income as his career choices changed. I will mix concrete and pound nails and squash bugs when needed. I honestly don't believe I expect him to be or behave in a certain manner because he's a man. Actually, he has the gender issues. Otherwise he wouldn't be a crossdresser, now would he?

When it's just he and I, CDing isn't too big an issue anymore. My concerns and questions have been addressed for the most part and now it just remains to be seen if all that holds true with the test of time.

Integrating it into our children's lives is the challenge on the table now. And quite honestly, whether we should or not. I have resisted and am not 100% convinced that it is in their best interest for many reasons. 18 & 14 seems like a bad time to introduce a full femme CD into their lives when this person has not been open or communicative all their lives. Not that he doesn't love his children, they know dad does and will spoil them when mom won't. Dad has always been prone to obsession and is always busy doing something - rarely just sits and talks to them or watches a movie, or plays a video game.... He continually expresses regret at not spending more time with them, but can't seem to let his stuff go long enough to make their stuff priority (in the mundane, not the big events).

Also, as so many CDs seem to be, when upset dad withdraws into himself. Walking around with the big black cloud over his head, not talking to anyone other than a grunt or bark and we've been instructed to just leave him alone until he works it out. Which can take weeks. Admittedly, since coming out, these moods have gotten shorter in duration and frequency, but it's still an eggshell walk. In my opinion, these mood withdrawals send the message that "You're on your own. Don't care what you may need right now, don't bother me." Perhaps overly harsh, but accurate to some degree.

Now we all have our faults and quirks and I am not trying to say he is undeserving of being able to dress how he pleases in his own home. I believe he should have that right. But I also believe my children have the right to be comfortable and feel welcome in their parents' home. We have already seen one daughter's response to Darlene and it was not good.

Also, whenever he talks about coming out to someone else, I ask "why?". Unfortunately, I have been proven right to date. IMO, he is searching for someone to embrace Darlene as a great person and to forget (at least temporarily) that the guy exists. As one TS here told me, "Tell him it ain't gonna happen."

He tries to alleviate my fears with, "You know how I am. I'll be obsessed for awhile and then it'll fade to just once in awhile." Forgive me for not buying into that. If it's just a whim of the time, it is not worth the upheaval to come out to the kids. I will not gamble with their sense of security for a passing fancy. Plus I don't believe it is a passing fancy so he will not be able to live up to that committment. I've already been told "It's just for fun once in awhile" that progressed to "I want to dress 50% of the time" in less than 1 year. There is no consistancy of intent here.

Hence my original thread & question. Why? As a mother I will instinctively go into defense mode whenever I even suspect danger to my kids. If he was able to just dress more femme than drab and ease them into the visual, I would be OK. He says he doesn't think he can do that - anything less than full femme makes him feel silly if others are around. Frankly, Darlene is too femme, IMO. I don't want either of my daughters to feel they have to dress like that to be a valid woman. If he'd just start exhibiting these more "feminine" feelings he says he can't express as a male then the girls could maybe see a happier, more open father and see the good side of CDing before they see the visual.

So from my point of view, where's the social (probably should've specified in-home social) value of his CDed self? I feel stuck in a position of choosing between my husband's or my children's well being and that sucks. Perhaps if mother bear went into hibernation for awhile it'd all be over when I awoke thinner and refreshed. :happy:

So thanks again for your comments. Many were helpful in various ways. As with all things, it will work out or it won't and either way, we will survive to struggle another day.

[Satrana]

Tree

You have some very specific issues to your situation which differs from many others here. As always only you can decide what is best for you and your family.

Here are some thoughts that popped into my head as I read.



Also, as so many CDs seem to be, when upset dad withdraws into himself. Why is this a CD attribute? Seems to me like a very common reaction that all sorts of men and women have. I think you are falling into the trap of assigning flaws to CDing which have got nothing to do with it.



But I also believe my children have the right to be comfortable and feel welcome in their parents' home. We have already seen one daughter's response to Darlene and it was not good. Lets use the great analogy, say your son announces he is gay. Does that mean he is no longer welcome himself, or that the other siblings would no longer consider home comfortable because their brother has come out? Your reaction on how you would deal with your son coming out as gay should be the same as dealing with your husband's CDing. For me, you should tell everyone, you cant keep this thing a secret. Next is everyone to sit down and work through the issues, in particular ensuring that irrational fears are worked on and eliminated. Family bonds are strong, don't discount their love for their dad to win over their phobias.


IMO, he is searching for someone to embrace Darlene as a great person and to forget (at least temporarily) that the guy exists. As one TS here told me, "Tell him it ain't gonna happen." People seek validation, it is a natural human reaction. I wonder why though he has to seek it elsewhere when home should be the first port of call.


If he was able to just dress more femme than drab and ease them into the visual, I would be OK. He says he doesn't think he can do that - anything less than full femme makes him feel silly if others are around. This is a problem he needs to work on. He has to ditch his fear of being labelled a sissy/gay. He will struggle with his transgenderness if he can't get his head around this issue. It only serves to distort his view of himself and he loses sight of what it all means.


I've already been told "It's just for fun once in awhile" that progressed to "I want to dress 50% of the time" in less than 1 year. There is no consistency of intent here. You may seek consistency but you will not find that in a person discovering themselves. No-one stays the same,you know that, the only difference is that his self-discovery speeds up the rate of change. I can understand the rapid change will be dis-quietening but it really has nothing to do with intent on his part. If you are genuine in your belief that he should have the freedom to fully express himself then you have to take the rough with the smooth and let him find his own balance.


Frankly, Darlene is too femme, IMO. I don't want either of my daughters to feel they have to dress like that to be a valid woman. I would say this is an unfounded fear on your part. Do you really think your teenage daughters would copy your father's dress sense and behavior? Would they really learn to be overly feminine from him? All the teenagers I know want to be the opposite of their parents. His fem dressing would almost certainly lead to your daughters wanting to be less fem not more.

[Marla S]

So from my point of view, where's the social (probably should've specified in-home social) value of his CDed self? I feel stuck in a position of choosing between my husband's or my children's well being and that sucks. Perhaps if mother bear went into hibernation for awhile it'd all be over when I awoke thinner and refreshed. :happy:
Yes sounds like you feel stuck and from what I've read I'd feel the same. Would hibernation help .... dunno.


Dad has always been prone to obsession and is always busy doing something - rarely just sits and talks to them or watches a movie, or plays a video game.... He continually expresses regret at not spending more time with them, but can't seem to let his stuff go long enough to make their stuff priority (in the mundane, not the big events).
Sounds familiar to me, I have similar tendencies.
Being busy all the time, nevertheless hardly get something finished, at least not the important things (there is always something less important to do, which seems to provide more instant fun or success), thereby losing sight of social aspects, feeling lonely and misunderstood, regret to have not made this call or just a nice evening with friends, which needs further activities to get some (self)-affirmation, etc. etc.

If your husband is similar and you ask for the social value of CDing or the anti-social 'value' respectively it could be rooted here.

The CDing (seems he didn't really accepted himself yet) just adds to it and probably is more pronounced because the inner conflict is more pronounced.
Personally I think I made some progress, but I didn't change in this respect only because I found my way of CDing ... it's independent of it, though it might have been caused by ages in the closet. Having got a grip on CDing helps me though to focus and work on this 'busy-anti-social-self-unhappy'-issues.
Don't know if you husband is similar, but it might be worth to figure out Why he has to be busy all the time ? What drives him ? Where's the fun of it ?

[Mitch23]

I can see where you are coming from now Tree. SO has come out, now starting to push the boundaries and move to places where he said he would never go and you're thinking what next and where its all going to end. You can just about stomach the CD but the social implications, kids, family, friends, neighbours are scaring you witless.

It's kind of where we are and I suspect where most GGs in these odd kind of relationships find themselves. Some cope with it well, some badly and to the divorce courts and most just hang on in there hoping that it will sort it self out somehow but they don't really know how. Bit like the Simpsons really.

And I've not been the father to my kids that they deserved and now I'm paying the penalty cos they don't phone. And I don't think it matters to them whether I decided to dress as Zsa Zsa Gabor (that dates me) or Arnie Schwartz...

Mitch

[Carin]

Hi Tree.

Great post and great responses. Quite thought prevoking.

Your follow-up today hits very close to home for us at the moment.


Integrating it into our children's lives is the challenge on the table now. And quite honestly, whether we should or not.

whenever he talks about coming out to someone else, I ask "why?".

But I also believe my children have the right to be comfortable and feel welcome in their parents' home.

I will not gamble with their sense of security for a passing fancy. Plus I don't believe it is a passing fancy so he will not be able to live up to that committment.

As a mother I will instinctively go into defense mode whenever I even suspect danger to my kids.

Fundamentally I agree with you. You maternal instincts are there to protect your children. For me it is not a passing fancy. And even so gambling with their sense of security is not appropriate. If the impact on the kids is a big gamble then you are right to be in defence mode.


If he was able to just dress more femme than drab and ease them into the visual, I would be OK. He says he doesn't think he can do that - anything less than full femme makes him feel silly if others are around. Frankly, Darlene is too femme, IMO.

If he'd just start exhibiting these more "feminine" feelings he says he can't express as a male then the girls could maybe see a happier, more open father and see the good side of CDing before they see the visual.

You know about the frog and the pot of boiling water. Put a frog into a pot of cold water and turn up the heat, he will stay there. Put a frog into a pot of boiling water and he will jump out. The full visual out of the chute is just too much. It overloads the senses and provides no time to understand the concept of transgendered and what that means. Over 10 years my kids have seen me get my ears pierced, grow my hair out, put clear polish on my nails, recently add a light sheer color. Nothing overnight. My clothing style has evolved androgenously. One of my daughters (who does not explicitly know) commented how she liked a particular t-shirt on me, the color suited me. It was purple.


Integrating it into our children's lives is the challenge on the table now. And quite honestly, whether we should or not....

So from my point of view, where's the social (probably should've specified in-home social) value of his CDed self? I feel stuck in a position of choosing between my husband's or my children's well being and that sucks. Perhaps if mother bear went into hibernation for awhile it'd all be over when I awoke thinner and refreshed. :happy:


It is on the table for us too. We have talked about it on and off for some time. Are they collectively mature enough? are they ready? We didn't necessarily agree with each other, so we waited. We think they are ready.

There is in-home social value in our children understanding more about their father. I have a very close relationship with all of my kids, and they have expressed an interest in advancing this. We have taught our kids to be open and understanding. Do we say one thing and mean another? I am not looking for permission to come down to breakfast in skirt and bright lipstick. I don't want to change what they see. I would like them to understand what they see and and what they accept today.

The fundamental pre-requisite is that we are not gambling with their sense of security. When we tell them I will know that I am not undermining their relationship with me. I know that they have enormous respect for me, not as a man, but as the person who who taught them how to drive, drove them everywhere before that, listened to them when they needed to talk, talked to them when they needed it, and a whole lot more. They deserve our respect of their ability to deal with the facts as they become adults in the world.

I am not embarassed or ashamed of being transgendered. To hide it is to say that it is wrong, when in fact it is right. It is not a bedroom fetish for me, it is an integral part of who I am. We have shared everything else of our lives with our children (OK, not the bedroom stuff, privacy is respected).

We have 7 ages 13 through 21. The 13 YO is mentally challenged and will not have to deal with this. The next up already knows. She found enough stuff to come to the wrong conclusion and we had to set her straight. Her comment was "Wow, I have cool parents". The next 4 (one girl, three boys )don't explicitly know, though they are savvy enough to put two and two together. The eldest already knows. To bring those four into the inclusion box is to let them and the others know that we are family. We deal with life 'stuff' togheter.

As for the big black cloud...

Also, as so many CDs seem to be, when upset dad withdraws into himself. Walking around with the big black cloud over his head
Guilty as charged. I am an intravert, Louise is an extravert. Had we not discovered this and "how we process" very early in our relationship (briggs meyers - we are on opposite ends of most of the scales), our relationship would have been much more challenging. I know that intraverted processing is VERY difficult for an extravert to deal with. The extraverted SO is moreso frustrated because she wants to talk about it (that is how an extravert processes) with anyone that will listen, but this is not a subject she can talk about openly.

Tree, I know that your environment is different. This isn't a recepie, it is just our family. Out timing is yet to be determined, but most likely before I turn 50 in November. I'm sure we will report.