Maybe We Got It Wrong From The Very Beginning...

[Holly]

What I mean by that is maybe we designated the wrong clothing to the wrong sexes. In the animal kingdom, it is the pea**** not the peahen who has all the beautiful plumage. It is the lion, not the lioness with the beautiful mane. The first clothing for humans was fig leaves as far as I know... pretty much unisex. So who decided that the pretty and colorful and soft clothing was to be designated as women's and the utilitarian, drab things were to be for men? Did someone blow it a long, long time ago? Could it be that we are drawn to the clothing we seek by some ingrained calling that originated from that beginning of time? Or do I just have too much time on my hands to think too much? :D

[TreKidation]

Unfortunately different people have different opinions on what is or is not beautiful and soft and pretty and so on ...

[chucks]

i think that if some tests were run, male chimpanzees would prefer to wear girly clothes over drab ones. if they would want to wear clothes at all.

[Wendy me]

ok now i am scared ..... lol because if that is true then we would be out buying drabs?????.........

[Phyliss]

ok now i am scared ..... lol because if that is true then we would be out buying drabs?????.........

Oh my, I can just picture it. Here I am in my skirt, frilly blouse 4" heels and trying to NOT be noticed while sneaking up and down the aisle looking for a pair of "Y" fronts. (in plain white scratchey cotton)

[Joy Carter]

I need to do a search. But there is a South Sea island tribe where the males adorn themselves with flowers and a form of makeup. I think I saw it in National Geographic.

I think that what we chose as our presentaion as a gender statement, has allot to do with peer pressure. And how we view our selves. If there was no culture taboo in dress. I think we would be surprised how many males would be sporting skirts and heels.

[Marla S]

Could it be that we are drawn to the clothing we seek by some ingrained calling that originated from that beginning of time? Or do I just have too much time on my hands to think too much? :D
I think it is the latter :heehee:

The lion's mane is a symbol of power and strength and not of beauty.
It resembles more to a Ferrari or a big bank account than to a ball gown.

@peacock. It's better the male is haunted down due to it's sparkling feathers than that the hen is. She has to bring up the offspring.
Same for a lot of other birds.

Most often when the male animals are more decorated than the females, they don't have anything to do with breeding and/or have the decoration as a symbol of strength.

BTW: We talk about secondary sex characteristics here and not about clothes or culture.

[sarah378619]

Holly,
I don't think gender identity has not been fully understood. It was just always easier to have just two devisions. Reality is different than the two gender division boy/girl. Clothing has also been used to elevate males and exclude females from occupations and trades too. Not sure how girls got the best clothes either.But some girls like drab too and they can dress that way anytime-not fair he-He.
Sarah

[Kate Simmons]

Well, we weren't here in the beginning Holly. We just inherited this whole she bang from generations of others, all of whom had their own ideas and beliefs. The bottom line is, if we want to truely be individuals, we have to be willing to take the bull by the horns and challenge the status quo. We have to prove who and what we are as people and show that what we wear makes absolutely no difference as to who we are inside and what is in our hearts. We had this graphically demonstrated this past week. Some people just cannot see past the surface and they are losing out themselves and selling others short by doing that. Only when people see others for who they truely are will they be able to move forward in a positive way and in a positive direction.:happy:

[Satrana]

I had the same thoughts Holly, if we follow nature's lead it should be the males who are flashy and the females who should be dull.

Men's clothes in our Western society was often flashy in the past but puritan religious thoughts that sex was bad especially homosexuality resulted in men losing their plumage. Instead men had to rely on substitute displays of wealth to attract females.

I have said this before but I will say it again, we have the misfortune to be alive during an abnormal time in history when male drabness was strived for. It is a weird concept to deliberately constrict your self-expression. It has been wrongly perceived as a show of strength but in reality it is a weakness.

[BarbaraTalbot]

think about centuries past..there were times when the mens garments were the ones with the frills and colors and fabrics.

The last guy in any society that went from kilts, or caftan, or skirts was the very first crossdresser.

In ancient Israel, women had short hair and were forbidden jewelry.

[Marla S]

think about centuries past..there were times when the mens garments were the ones with the frills and colors and fabrics.

The last guy in any society that went from kilts, or caftan, or skirts was the very first crossdresser.

In ancient Israel, women had short hair and were forbidden jewelry.
Could you give me some insight when in history (let's say the last the 2000 years) fashion hasn't been different for men and women ?
Do we talk about unequal distribution of frills and lace, or do we talk about gender issues ?
If the latter is the case history is meaningless, if the first is the case emulating women is kinda pointless, we talk about fashion statements then.

BTW: Bras and nylons never have been men's fashion. What about that ?

[Kerry Owens]

Now wait a minit! Historically (and hysterically too come to think of it!) Lace, satin, velvet and frills were used by men also with little or no hesitation. C'mon look at Louis XV or Henry VIII? Lace? Embroidery? Lots of expensive silk? Check on all of em.....and without a demur from anyone in court who was just as dandified up. Ladies also had their share. I'd say if anything the tide turned dressing-wise when Cromwell stomped down everything and the French Revolution had it's bloody turn. WWI pretty much made a drab of everyones lives until the sixties blew in and men rediscovered color.

[Julogden]

I need to do a search. But there is a South Sea island tribe where the males adorn themselves with flowers and a form of makeup. I think I saw it in National Geographic.

I think that what we chose as our presentaion as a gender statement, has allot to do with peer pressure. And how we view our selves. If there was no culture taboo in dress. I think we would be surprised how many males would be sporting skirts and heels.
Hi Joy,

You might possibly be thinking of the Wodaabe in Africa, see here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm1tN3SmDWs) for details.

Carol

[Marla S]

Now wait a minit! Historically (and hysterically too come to think of it!) Lace, satin, velvet and frills were used by men also with little or no hesitation. C'mon look at Louis XV or Henry VIII? Lace? Embroidery? Lots of expensive silk? Check on all of em.....and without a demur from anyone in court who was just as dandified up. Ladies also had their share. I'd say if anything the tide turned dressing-wise when Cromwell stomped down everything and the French Revolution had it's bloody turn. WWI pretty much made a drab of everyones lives until the sixties blew in and men rediscovered color.
I don't doubt that. It's true and it is also true what Satrana said:

... we have the misfortune to be alive during an abnormal time in history when male drabness was strived for.It is a weird concept to deliberately constrict your self-expression.
But that argument doesn't really fit to the often mentioned wish to become or look like a women, break taboos, the thrill and what not.
That's another level, which is not really affected by the actual fashion. There is some oddness in the argument with historical fashion.
You can buy pink shirts, men's skirts, lace shirts, satin pajamas, makeup, wigs etc. even pantyhose for men. How many CDs do ?

Having this said I am convinced if men's fashion wouldn't be so restricted there would be by far less MTF CDs and there would be by far less that want to look like a women.

[Rachel Morley]

I blame the Victorians. Click on the link below and scroll down and take a look at the pictures of the (rich) people as we go through the ages. All the clothes of both the men and the women are all very colorful with lots of choices of fabrics and styles all the way up to 1800's (Queen Victoria's reign started in 1837) then it all goes terribly wrong! Suddenly there is no color, no frills, no lace, no adornments, and there is absolutely no style or anything good in any of the male clothing! .... like I said ...I blame the Victorians :sad:

http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/timelinepages/timeline.htm

[Fab Karen]

What I mean by that is maybe we designated the wrong clothing to the wrong sexes.
The first clothing for humans was fig leaves as far as I know... pretty much unisex.
According to that old story, god wants us naked, so most people are blasphemers. :devil:

[susie evans]

i don't no but i like girly clothes a lot better :heehee:

susie

[Sapphire]

Holly,

Even if men’s clothes were to change back to styles prevalent when men dressed in silk and satin and wore makeup and perfume I for one would not be the least interested in forsaking my present day “drab” male clothes. In fact, as a man, I rather like the practical clothing that is available to men as of now; and there is no way I would want to exchange my male clothes for what might be termed “feminine” male clothes. My inclination towards crossdressing has, I suspect, more to do with wearing clothing of the opposite sex than with the fabrics and their tactile qualities. It is tempting to infer that were men’s clothes made of softer and more sensuous fabrics then the problem would be solved. For some maybe – but I think the problem goes deeper than that.

Worth thinking about though – especially after a glass of wine!

[Veronica 1]

According to that old story, god wants us naked, so most people are blasphemers. :devil:

I, for one, would love to not be a blasphemer, but our current laws of society keep me from keeping God's law. :D

[Rachaelb64]

What about the New Romantics of 1980s? Including the 'Gender Benders' like Boy George?

Just because through out history the Rich had fancy clothes does mean we all did. Your average European Peasant had very drab clothing, the Industrial revolution meant very practicial clothes plus sunday best.

Like the Pencock, clothes have been and are still used as symbols of power and status.

Personally I just like wearing woman's clothes full stop. And my t-shirt and jeans in male drab :)

[Hippy Chic]

think about centuries past..there were times when the mens garments were the ones with the frills and colors and fabrics.

The last guy in any society that went from kilts, or caftan, or skirts was the very first crossdresser.

In ancient Israel, women had short hair and were forbidden jewelry.

Exactly Barbara, think of the Tudors, & Georgian periods.

[JoAnnDallas]

If you look back in history at mens fashions, you will find until almost the middle of the 1800's mens fashions were a lot different. A lot more closer to what the women wore. Back then it was socailly acceptable for a man to

1. Wear a wig
2. Wear makeup
3. Paint their nails
4. Wear lacey soft garments
5. Carry lacey hankies
6. Wear high heel shoes

Then sometime near the middle of the 1800's it all changed to what men wear today. It became taboo for men wear what they used to wear.