GGs and TS MTFs

[Maggie Kay]

There is a GG only thread over in the MTF crossdressing board by a GG on whether GG's of CDers view their husbands as female when dressed.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64768

The posts go on to talk about TS MTFs and many state that none really pass and other GGs say that they can always tell that the transwoman is really a man. It is implied that they have a radar that can detect this initial state in any condition. I have seen quite a few transwomen and they passed totally for me. The only way I knew was that I was told that they were transwomen.

Do GG's have this radar? My SO has told me that she has problems seeing me naked now because she sees a woman. Yet she says similar things to these GGs.

The mind of a TS MTF is female which is why GRS was prescribed by the medical/psych community. To say that transwomen are not female seems to belie a lack of acceptance of the TS condition, even here in this community.

[GypsyKaren]

I really don't think they're saying that TS's aren't female, just that many don't completely pass as a female to the general public, and I have to agree with that. Yes, there are many that do, maybe more than I'm aware of, but the majority that I know or have seen don't, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Think about it, we have to deal with genetics here, plus the many, many years where we tried to live as a man and presented those characteristics in order to keep our secret. It takes a lot of time to try to undo that, yet we still have to deal with the male features we were born with, some with a lot more than others. You can only do so much when it comes to changing your appearance, and the hormones to help some there, at least for me, but I think that many will never be able to pull it off completely, myself included.

I know the GG you're talking about, and what she's talking about comes from a conversation we've had, and I can assure you that she means no disrespect at all, so please don't infer any. In any event, I do feel the same way, but I don't give a damn about "passing" or whatever, I'm all about living my life as who I really am, and I don't care how others perceive me, male, female, or dalmation for all I care.

Karen Starlene

[Sharon]

Of course you have to realize, that they are unaware of those who may actually be able to pass.

[Leah B]

Right. How would they know if they were wrong? People who "pass" this woman's detection are never considered. She can't go "That's a natal male, but I can't tell that it is."

[JamesAlan]

People come in all shapes and sizes. I've met GG's that looked very masculine, but were not tg. I've met GM's that looked very feminine, but were not tg. I have friends that are in various stages of transition. To me it is how you feel about yourself that truely matters. If you pass, you pass. If you don't pass, but you are happy with yourself, why should it matter. I'm a GG with a masculine build, but on the short side. I just happened to have two parents that were built broad. I know it is something my girlfriend worries about. She wants to pass as female. To me she is a woman, even though she hasn't started any of the medical avenues to get there. *shrugs* I don't know if when it's all said and done that she'll pass, but that doesn't mean she's not my girlfriend or that she's a woman. It's more about your self esteem.

[Robin Leigh]

There is a GG only thread over in the MTF crossdressing board by a GG on whether GG's of CDers view their husbands as female when dressed.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64768

The posts go on to talk about TS MTFs and many state that none really pass and other GGs say that they can always tell that the transwoman is really a man.

I bet there are a few non-GGs that would love to make comments in that thread. :) But, to be fair, TS wasn't mentioned until post #20, and most of the discussion revolved around the typical straight married CD.

I used to know a MTF CD that has always had a feminine body type. As a kid, she was often mistaken for a girl. As an adult, she claims she has been in lesbian clubs, and even kissed GGs without them reading her.

There is a post-op TS in my neighbourhood who passes really well, despite her large size. I often see her at the bus stop on the way to work, and when I noticed her big hands I thought there was a chance she was TS. I was wondering about her for months, until one day she made a bit of a scene on a bus (because all the windows were closed).

Even then, I only read her from the manner in which she spoke to the other passengers, some slightly masculine vocal patterns, and certain aspects of her body language. It was interesting to see the wave of realization sweeping down the bus, and how the other passengers (mostly GGs) reacted to her.

:hugs:

Robin

[Tamara Croft]

Wow, post 20 is a bit harsh, I don't think I could ever say that about a TS, it's a bit insulting :( even if I thought it, it's a bit of a slap :(

[Kate Simmons]

I have to agree that you cannot always tell. I have a friend who transitioned over 25 years ago and when she told me a few years ago you could have scraped me off the floor with a spatula. No indication whatsoever that she was ever anything but female. Just goes to show that life is sometimes full of pleasant surprises.:happy:

[Sharon]

Wow, post 20 is a bit harsh, I don't think I could ever say that about a TS, it's a bit insulting :( even if I thought it, it's a bit of a slap :(

You think that was harsh? Try going out with a TS (or CD for that matter) sometime and hear comments from people who have had no previous exposure with us. It is a shame, however, to have to read such nonsense here in the forum, but I guess there's no escaping ignorance no matter where you go.

[Katrina]

You think that was harsh? Try going out with a TS (or CD for that matter) sometime and hear comments from people who have had no previous exposure with us. It is a shame, however, to have to read such nonsense here in the forum, but I guess there's no escaping ignorance no matter where you go.

Yeah...the last time I went out with a group (also the first time), we went to a restaurant. As we were walking in, some "kids" my age started hooting and hollering and saying things like "he is one UGLY woman!" to several of us. Not a pleasant experience and probably the reason I haven't done much enfemme out since.

[Renee Talia]

Of course you have to realize, that they are unaware of those who may actually be able to pass.

I agree, although there may be some that may never pass I am sure there are just as many that easily pass, for one you wouldn't know if they did pass, for two it would just depend on so many different variables. To say all TS are male and come off as male no matter what, I believe that is not true!

[CindyFinalyFree]

You know, it wouldn't bother me if someone discoverd there 'was' a radar sensory that GG's had. For me, as a mtf TG, I'm not concerned with 'women' reading me. It's the men that I fear. Not to say that they're not out there, but when I think of 'gay bashers' or what have you, I instinctively picture a male in my mind. No offense to the GG's out there, but being read by a woman doesn't scare me. After all, isn't immitation the best form of flattery? Even if every woman 'could' read 'any' TG, what would it matter, really. It's not the women that rock the boat so to speak. It's the men who are so insecure in their own masculinity that they can't bear to see someone else shed theirs.

Now if she goes out of her way to point out to the nearest guy 'hey, that's really a man', then there's gonna be some arse-whoopin!! lol (j/k)

[Ema1234 GG]

I actually think you've got the wrong end of the stick about the postings on that thread.

The thread specifically asked about our thoughts on our partners, the vast majority of whom are not TS and whether we perceived them as female whilst dressed. The problem with that is that many of us met our partners in male mode and it was a long time before we discovered their female selves. Those who were introduced to their fem side more quickly seem to have an easier job of being able to see them as female.

And whilst some GG's may say that TS might not pass in their eyes, as far as I was aware no one said they weren't women. And again, as has been pointed out before we probably have no idea about those who do pass that we meet in our everyday lives!

[BrendaB GG]

KayRenee, I think you have to remember that the majority of those GG's in that post are dealing with their part time CDing husbands, who have not had the benefits of hormones, surgeries, etc...

I also believe that for a TG it is hardest to pass in front of the ones that knew them as a man, because simply, they still see the man.

The other thing at play here is that before the TG world came into my life, I was not aware of people and their gender variances unless it was incredibly obvious. But now my radar has been enhanced due to being in the community. So a TG that was passable before, might not be now, just because i know exactly what to look for, ie big hands, broad shoulders, etc. Having said that, there are many GG's that have those masculine markers too.
Brenda

[Hippy Chic's Chick]

I agree with those who suggest that the OP has got the wrong end of the stick.

My SO wears only lingerie and has never fully dressed (though I reckon it's just a matter of time.) He doesn't want to be a woman or pass as a woman, just wear the clothes that are usually associated with females.

For instance, the other night he's sitting there in a pretty negligie, make-up and tiny knickers. His hairy chest was on display and there are bits falling out of his knickers - I see all man, the clothes don't make a bit of difference. In my eye, I see more of a man, because if he can still wear that and he still looks masculine, there's a lot of man under all that get up. ;)

If he fully dressed, I'd still consider him a man - he's cross dressing, not gender swapping.

I have always considered a person who lives completely as one sex or another as that sex, regardless of whether they're completely TS or not. It's not even about passing as a woman, but about accepting that it is a woman. A lot of TS GMs are quite masculine and it's sometimes not difficult to tell, but they're still all woman as far as I'm concerned.

In short, a cross-dressing SO who spends most of their time dressed as a male will always be considered male by their partner. A TS will, as far as I'm concerned, will always be accepted as the sex they choose to identify with.

[GypsyKaren]

I also feel that some have taken what was said wrong, I didn't have a problem with it myself. Also, while I'm sure that there are TS's out there who looked "passable" before hormones, I would think that many did not, and I think that CD'ers without that benefit really tend to stand out, more than a lot of them think. Just my opinion here, so please don't take it the wrong way, just my experiences talking ...Anyways, good discussion here.

Karen Starlene

[GypsyKaren]

Thank you Josie for your comments, you've summed it up rather well I think. I guess the problem I have with all of this is that I don't care about how I'm perceived by others, that's their call and their problem as far as I'm concerned. I feel that to many spend to much time worrying about "passing", for some I know it rules their lives and they have no fun going out.

To me, "passing" is about being accepted, and I feel I get this when someone returns a smile, that's good enough for me. Do I wish I was "drop dead gorgeous? I'd be a liar if I said I didn't (so I'm a little bit vain, could be worse), but I am what I am, even though I've been able to make changes. I used to worry about it and was miserable for it, now I feel free to be myself, stares from the public be damned.

Here's something that really brought a hoot...the other day I had to run out real quick to the hardware store, I was dressed down and casual but I left the wig at home. The guy ringing me up actually referred to me as a 'she', now that was a first, and yes, it made my day (vanity once again I'm afraid, but I'll take it)...you take care.

Karen Starlene

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Absolutely. A man that crossdresses is still a man - after all, they don't identify as a woman, or feel that they have a woman's soul.

Not quite correct. All trans people self-identify to a certain extent with the sex opposite to their birth sex.

[Hippy Chic's Chick]

- no, you are a straight guy in a negligee.

I know it's naughty, but that made me giggle. ;) Harsher than I may have said it, but on the ball. :)

He may be expressing the feminine side to his nature and he may be doing so in a nighty, but he is still my bloke, the father to my baby and I'm still sexually attracted to him for his masculinity - not the nighty or the make-up. If he thought he was having lesbian sex, I'd be off in a second. It's straight sex, because it doesn't matter if I'm in my PJs and he's in his nighty, I'm a woman and he's a man.



Not quite correct. All trans people self-identify to a certain extent with the sex opposite to their birth sex.

There is a huge difference with identifying parts of your personality and nature to that identified with the opposite sex and wanting to live as, and be biologically as the opposite sex.

Talking to my SO the other night, I was talking of how if doing the garden or decorating, I'll wear something very masculine and find the activity invigorating. I enjoy that there are parts of me that are more masculine than feminine, but I don't want to be a man - just as he doesn't want to be a woman.

If clothing helps us to identify with the characteristics we label according to gender, then so be it, but that's a million miles away from feeling that your gender is different to your sex and you're therefore in the wrong body.

:)

[Hippy Chic's Chick]

To me, "passing" is about being accepted, and I feel I get this when someone returns a smile, that's good enough for me. Do I wish I was "drop dead gorgeous? I'd be a liar if I said I didn't (so I'm a little bit vain, could be worse), but I am what I am, even though I've been able to make changes. I used to worry about it and was miserable for it, now I feel free to be myself, stares from the public be damned.


That has nothing to do with 'passing' as a woman though. :)

HC can look very pretty and very sexy. I mean it when I say it and it's not a case of saying the right thing. Now that he lets me do his make-up it's astonishing how pretty he becomes and how his mannerisms change.

Even so, he's still a guy. An accepted, pretty and much loved one, but still a guy all the same. :)

[GypsyKaren]

That has nothing to do with 'passing' as a woman though. :)


I don't care or expect to be seen as a woman, I just want to be seen as a person, nothing more, nothing less.

Karen Starlene

[Hippy Chic's Chick]

I don't care or expect to be seen as a woman, I just want to be seen as a person, nothing more, nothing less.

Karen Starlene

And that you are. :D

In all honesty, there is too much labelling for my liking. None of us are 100% gender or the other, we're all somewhere on the spectrum. It's a case of discovering where we lie on that spectrum and how we fit into society according to that that leads to confusion.

It would be nice if we could all be pigeon holed - but it ain't gonna happen! ;)

Mwah xx

[PaulaJaneThomas]

There is a huge difference with identifying parts of your personality and nature to that identified with the opposite sex and wanting to live as, and be biologically as the opposite sex.

I never said there wasn't.

[Siobhan Marie]

I don't care or expect to be seen as a woman, I just want to be seen as a person, nothing more, nothing less.

Karen Starlene

That's all I want as well. It's not too much to ask is it?

:hugs: Siobhán x