Confused (CD vs. TS acceptance)

[Emma England]

I have heard that some people can accept a transexual wishing to go through the op.

Yet the same person has a hard time wondering why some guys just like to crossdress.

I am confused as to why the difference in opinion.

[KandisTX]

The answer to this is a simple one... or relatively simple, though not logical.

A TS has decided they are no longer going to be a man and will be having surgery to "fix" the mistake nature made.

A CD is still a man that has the desire, need, want to dress like, and in many cases pretend to be a woman.

For myself personally, I find that CDing is a way to allow Kandis a chance to express herself and other than my still having outdoor plumbing, I AM Kandis.

Kandis:love:

[PaulaJaneThomas]

A CD is still a man that has the desire, need, want to dress like, and in many cases pretend to be a woman.

You clearly have a lot to learn about the wider trans community Kandis.

Emma, I don't remember ever coming across anyone who accepts TSs but not any other trans people except for a few TSs who harbour a deep hatred of other trans people. Fortunately we don't seem to have individuals like that on this forum.

At a politcal level, there is plenty of evidence that it's acceptable to be TS but the rest of us are perverts (of course the politicians will never call us that in public ;)). Much of this has to do with transsexualism being sold to the politicians as a medical condition which can be "cured". Whilst this has resulted in much-needed legal protection for TSs it stigmatises all other trans people as being abberant rather than trans being one of the strands of human diversity.

[KandisTX]

You clearly have a lot to learn about the wider trans community Kandis.


Paula,

I'm sorry, I just had to laugh at this statement. I have been CDing for 30+ years, and out in the community for at least the last 18 of them. I do believe I am familiar enough to respond as I did. There are some circles where my information is correct, and there are some where it may not be. Most of the ones I have met that identify as a CD prefer their male aspects to remain, but they do have that need, desire, want as I stated. When you get into the realm of a transvestite or a drag queen, you are starting to get to the ones that are doing it for shock value or the entertainment of others, or just simply sexual gratification.

Kandis:love:

[JeanneF]

I think that Kandis hit the nail on the head.

The other aspect is that while TSes are "out" by the very nature of going through transformation, CDs tend to be the most closeted of any of the "alternative lifestyle" bunch, so the general public doesn't get an unbiased view of them.

It's pretty rare anymore, if you live in a large city, to not come across at least one TS person in your life. At the company that I currently work for, there are two TSes (one who is planning on staying non-op) who are currently transitioning as part of the 1000+ employees that we have in the Cincinnati area. But, I'd be willing to bet that there are a couple of dozen of CDers in the employee pool...you just would never know. I'm good friends with one of the TS girls at work, and I've joked with her a few times about how many of the guys that we work with are wearing panties underneath their suits.

It won't be until normal, red-blooded guys who like to glam it up once in a while wave their freak flag proudly that CDs will get the level of acceptance that the rest of the LGBT community has. One thing that the gay/lesbian community has done very well is make it extremely "in your face" about their sexuality...because if it's sitting in front of you, you have to at least acknowledge it's existance. Transsexuals are starting to get that level of acceptance as well. But crossdressers are going to still be fighting an uphill battle because most CDers don't want to be outed.

[RylieCD]

I haven't talked to many people about this topic but it am open to my wife ant she to had the same opinion as I, That a TS would fixing a natures mistake and CDing is harder to understand. It also make it hard to explain to her about the cloths like Bras. as a CD we like them, they feel comfortable/natural but as she says we are men and do not have the equipent necessary for the bra to be needed. (I make it sound like she is not accepting but she is understanding of my feelings and is trying to understand this herself)

[Rosaliy Lynne]

all of which are true in some respect.

I will say this: there is more to each of us than the shell that contains us. We may have male or female genitalia but that is NOT ALL that makes up who we are. The rest is determined by our internal pshcyo/chemical natures. The more that internal makeup expresses an opposite gender to our bodies, and the greater the conflict inside between those two things, the more we tend to need to "fix the effors of nature" that put a man or woman in the body of the opposite gender. Somewhere between the [reasonably] well balanced male or female and the extreme of being transsexual, exists the other classes of transgender from cross dresser to gay. The problem I see of being identified as a CD is that the great majority of so-called normal people, and of course the religious groups for the most part, is that CD and Gay get associated as one and the same which is NOT necessarily true.

No doubt some CD's are gay, or at least bi, but the majority seem to be heterosexual in that they relate to women from a man's point of view but have this internal need to express their feminine side but not necessarily with another male.

The same may well be true of the female to male CD altho it is harder to tell if a woman is cross dressing because it has always been acceptable for women to wear mens shirts, jackets, and even jeans while a man wearing women's clothing has always been considered some form of pervert.

[Hippy Chic]

At a politcal level, there is plenty of evidence that it's acceptable to be TS but the rest of us are perverts (of course the politicians will never call us that in public ;)).

Am sooo not mentioning anything to do with nooses, oranges, stockings & politicians in the same sentence, my lips are sealed!, biting my tongue here :hehe: ;)

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Am sooo not mentioning anything to do with nooses, oranges, stockings & politicians in the same sentence, my lips are sealed!, biting my tongue here :hehe: ;)

Or even worse Chelsea supporters ;)

[Hippy Chic]

Or even worse Chelsea supporters ;)


ROFL noooooo !!!

[MarinaTwelve200]

I have heard that some people can accept a transexual wishing to go through the op.

Yet the same person has a hard time wondering why some guys just like to crossdress.

I am confused as to why the difference in opinion.

Most people, mostly out of ignorance, can"t or dont differentiate between Gay,TS and CD---To them we are all "GAY" and their definition of gay, learned from their peers in grade school, is simply "a man who thinks he is (or wants to be) a woman"---They never bother to look up such terms in a book or dictionary, and go through even adult life with this attitude.

I suspect that they at least "admire" a TS for their "honesty", by going ahead and getting the operation. The concept of a hetro CD does not make sense to them, and they likely suspect that CDs are "gays" who pretend to be straight and are not honest with themselves or the public.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Paula,

I'm sorry, I just had to laugh at this statement. I have been CDing for 30+ years, and out in the community for at least the last 18 of them. I do believe I am familiar enough to respond as I did. There are some circles where my information is correct, and there are some where it may not be. Most of the ones I have met that identify as a CD prefer their male aspects to remain, but they do have that need, desire, want as I stated.

Then you've either met a very un-representative cross-section of the community or the circumstances under which you've met them has made them feel sufficiently uncomfortable that they've taken the safe option and spouted the party line instead of talking honestly about their feelings and needs. And there is a party line. I noticed it immediately when I joined this site.


When you get into the realm of a transvestite or a drag queen, you are starting to get to the ones that are doing it for shock value or the entertainment of others, or just simply sexual gratification.

Kandis:love:

The terms transvestite and transsexual were coined by Magnus Hirschfeld (sp?) early in the last centuary. By his definition, which the correct one, transvestites are those trans people who fall outside of the definition of transsexual (of course he didn't use the word trans or transgender - those are far more recent.). I don't see what you are hoping to gain by twisting the definition into something more seedy.

[Toyah]

honestly you are making this up arnt you ???

[KandisTX]

Then you've either met a very un-representative cross-section of the community or the circumstances under which you've met them has made them feel sufficiently uncomfortable that they've taken the safe option and spouted the party line instead of talking honestly about their feelings and needs. And there is a party line. I noticed it immediately when I joined this site.



The terms transvestite and transsexual were coined by Magnus Hirschfeld (sp?) early in the last centuary. By his definition, which the correct one, transvestites are those trans people who fall outside of the definition of transsexual (of course he didn't use the word trans or transgender - those are far more recent.). I don't see what you are hoping to gain by twisting the definition into something more seedy.

But, you see I'm not twisting any definitions. I am using the definitions by which society defines those words.

We, as a community need to find our unity within ourselves if we are to even remotely become "accepted" as part of the normal societal groups. Sure, we can all meet in our monthly get togethers, and we can all go out en masse to support the Gay Rights groups for Pride weeks, but it is not going to do any good for us as we do not technically fall within that realm of alternative lifestyles. Those of us that are gay do, but we heterosexual male to female crossdressers do not truly "fit" any definition when it comes to what society says is part of the GLBT (Transgendered in this sense is more directed toward Transsexuals).

Kandis:love:

[sterling12]

I think it has a lot to do with people not knowing whom and what we are. It's been the traditional thing for almost all Crossdressers to stay buried very deeply in their closets. People and things which have low visibility and are not understood....are usually misunderstood! Too true, TS people are "Out," and visible. We are not.

Personally, I have come to believe that we are all "going down the same road," the differences are in degrees of behavior. Maybe 1% of us choose to go much further with our transgendered feelings and go The TS/SRS Route. For a variety of reasons, most TG folk never go anywhere near to that TS Scenario.

Right now, we have several threads that are gently taking us all to task for being judgemental about others. Perhaps we are seeing something similar in this thread. Instead of trying to separate other person's into "they are ____, we are _____, categories, I think we would do better to consider ourselves all Sista's and kinfolk to all person's of alternative lifestyles. For me, politically, and morally, it just makes good sense.

Before I catch hell for it, I understand that other's are entitled to their own opinions, that's why we have dialog on this Forum, just would like to see folks NOT dividing The World into "Us and Them."

Peace and Love, Joanie

[lizbendalin]

(Transgendered in this sense is more directed toward Transsexuals).

Which is unfortunate. I think it's important that we within the crossdressing non-transsexual community do our best to recognize ourselves within the transgender community and claim our membership with pride.

As to the seeming public acceptance of TS's vs CD's: In addition to the wonderful points already made, the transsexual community has had a great deal more positive media coverage in the last few years. Unfortunately, the image that many people have of crossdressers involves Jerry Springer. If the crossdressing community could change the nature of the coverage that it receives by the media, I think that public perceptions would also change.

[KandisTX]

Which is unfortunate. I think it's important that we within the crossdressing non-transsexual community do our best to recognize ourselves within the transgender community and claim our membership with pride.

As to the seeming public acceptance of TS's vs CD's: In addition to the wonderful points already made, the transsexual community has had a great deal more positive media coverage in the last few years. Unfortunately, the image that many people have of crossdressers involves Jerry Springer. If the crossdressing community could change the nature of the coverage that it receives by the media, I think that public perceptions would also change.


I am 100% in agreement with you here honey. Shows like Jerry Springer, Maury Povich (lateley), Richard Bey, Ricki Lake, and all those other so-called "talk shows" on television have done nothing but give us bad press. We have got to work together to show the public that we are NOT all like that.

Kandis:love:

[Chantelle CD]

I have heard that some people can accept a transexual wishing to go through the op.

Yet the same person has a hard time wondering why some guys just like to crossdress.

I am confused as to why the difference in opinion.

I dont understand either the reason for this. Maybe because they see us as not being either one, male or a female, that this a more like a freak that needs to be stomped to the ground!! And this is why we feel a need to hide it so badly, reality for me is Chantelle would be crushed if i killed the male side of myself, she needs me, as much as i need her. Take either one away, and i am not whole at all.

[Sheri 4242]

I have heard that some people can accept a transexual wishing to go through the op. Yet the same person has a hard time wondering why some guys just like to crossdress. I am confused as to why the difference in opinion.

In the main, to the general public there is a congruence between what the person wants their actual anatomical sex to become and the appearance they present when crossdressed.

Marina takes it to the next logical step:

Most people, mostly out of ignorance, can"t or dont differentiate between Gay,TS and CD---To them we are all "GAY"


You clearly have a lot to learn about the wider trans community Kandis.

It seems it is the other way around, Paula, but what would I know, I've only been CDing for fifty-plus years -- and seriously studying it (in psychology, psychiatry, and general medicine) for several dozen years. IMO, Kandis knows exactly what she is talking about!


At a politcal level, there is plenty of evidence that it's acceptable to be TS but the rest of us are perverts (of course the politicians will never call us that in public ;)). Much of this has to do with transsexualism being sold to the politicians as a medical condition which can be "cured". Whilst this has resulted in much-needed legal protection for TSs it stigmatises all other trans people as being abberant rather than trans being one of the strands of human diversity.

H'mmm. Maybe you should cite your sources. I don't know of anything of the kind being "sold" to politicians, especially as something that can be cured. Current medical thought and theory, re diagnosis and therapy, is that the appropriate approach is accomodation and acceptance. Haven't heard too many politicos say any of this!


honestly you are making this up arnt you ???

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?!! Trolling or serious, and if the latter, where in the heck did this come from?!!

[Lisa Golightly]

I don't remember ever coming across anyone who accepts TSs but not any other trans people except for a few TSs who harbour a deep hatred of other trans people.

I've met a few of those... but in my experience it is more akin to jealousy, or a failiure to accept themselves fully, rather than a definable objective hatred. I kind of know the 'personalities' you mean though... I have the scars ;)

To answer the original question I'd wander down the line of the majority of people view one another as mechanical animals many of which require repairing. In the case of a TS... well that's easy... bit of body work, hormone injection and off you trot all shiny and new. In the case of the vanilla CD... well there's nothing mechanical to grasp on... nothing physical that they can go 'Aha!!! There's the problem guv!'.

Biggest failing of modern society is we try to understand too much rather than accepting what we see for what we see. Deconstruction time again...

'ere, you seen this language we're using guv? We wear it like clothes...

Nurse the screens... I've got a bad case of the philosophicals. :)

[Sheri 4242]

The terms transvestite and transsexual were coined by Magnus Hirschfeld (sp?) early in the last centuary. By his definition, which the correct one, transvestites are those trans people who fall outside of the definition of transsexual (of course he didn't use the word trans or transgender - those are far more recent.). I don't see what you are hoping to gain by twisting the definition into something more seedy.

The thing about "language" is it evolves -- and even changes. Many of the terms you are talking about have evolved since Magnus firt coined his term -- much b/c of emerging research and information. Read books about CDing (CD, TV, TS) written in the 1940's, then 1970's, then 1990's. Most who write with authority on the subject specifically note the evolution of many of the terms we use. It is well accepted (academically) that some definitions become antiquated as knowledge progresses.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Which is unfortunate. I think it's important that we within the crossdressing non-transsexual community do our best to recognize ourselves within the transgender community and claim our membership with pride.

I totally agree. The term transgender was coined to encompass the whole of the gender-variance spectrum. Sadly some pressure groups here in the UK have seen fit to "steal" the word and re-sell it as a psynonym for transsexual.


As to the seeming public acceptance of TS's vs CD's: In addition to the wonderful points already made, the transsexual community has had a great deal more positive media coverage in the last few years. Unfortunately, the image that many people have of crossdressers involves Jerry Springer. If the crossdressing community could change the nature of the coverage that it receives by the media, I think that public perceptions would also change.

I think changing perception is largely down to us.

[Rosaliy Lynne]

I dont understand either the reason for this. Maybe because they see us as not being either one, male or a female, that this a more like a freak that needs to be stomped to the ground!! And this is why we feel a need to hide it so badly, reality for me is Chantelle would be crushed if i killed the male side of myself, she needs me, as much as i need her. Take either one away, and i am not whole at all.

Oh Sister I so hear you on this!!! and this is exactly how I feel about me.

[Rosaliy Lynne]

The thing about "language" is it evolves -- and even changes. Many of the terms you are talking about have evolved since Magnus firt coined his term -- much b/c of emerging research and information. Read books about CDing (CD, TV, TS) written in the 1940's, then 1970's, then 1990's. Most who write with authority on the subject specifically note the evolution of many of the terms we use. It is well accepted (academically) that some definitions become antiquated as knowledge progresses.
Dayam good think too because if we all change and the understanding doesn't change too - who will know?

[QUOTE=
I think changing perception is largely down to us.[/QUOTE]
Yes and it starts by all of us accepting US as who we are. No doubt I am talking to the choir here but believe it, there are many who still don't accept themselves fully and remain in the closet as if who they are is somehow bad. Unless we step up to the plate and accept ourselves as good people, no different from anyone else (skip the clothing issue here) society as a whole will continue to see us as bad/perverse/what have you.

Everyone else who has made that 'transition' has achieved at least part of their goal of social acceptance. It is time for us to do the same.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I've met a few of those... but in my experience it is more akin to jealousy, or a failiure to accept themselves fully, rather than a definable objective hatred. I kind of know the 'personalities' you mean though... I have the scars ;)

I think you may be right about it being based in jealousy. We may never know though as having any sort of meaningful dialogue with such people is impossible. I don't like scars so I tend to give them away to others :devil:


To answer the original question I'd wander down the line of the majority of people view one another as mechanical animals many of which require repairing. In the case of a TS... well that's easy... bit of body work, hormone injection and off you trot all shiny and new. In the case of the vanilla CD... well there's nothing mechanical to grasp on... nothing physical that they can go 'Aha!!! There's the problem guv!'.

There's also the issue of people's binary notion of gender. You're either blue or pink. Some turn out blue when they should have been pink. No problem. A quick re-spray will fix that. Their world then still consists of blue or pink people and all is well. But then us awkward lot come along and say "I'm prepared to be blue during the week as long as I can be pink at the weekend" or "I quite like my arms being blue but I'm going to paint my hands and ears pink" or "I'm going to paint myself a bluey pink". We challenge their blue or pink binary gender world view.


Nurse the screens... I've got a bad case of the philosophicals. :)

Drink more beer :D:drink:

[Lisa Golightly]

Drink more beer :D:drink:

I'll have a litre of wine I think... You want your usual barrel of Guiness? :)

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I'll have a litre of wine I think... You want your usual barrel of Guiness? :)

I wasn't going to but now you've talked me into it :D

[Satrana]

Several thoughts spring to mind:

TS is usually presented as a spiritual problem "I am a woman trapped in a man's body". Spiritual issues are more easily accepted whereas CD is seen as a gay/sexual fetish problem.

Also the above statement invokes the fate trap, "It is not my fault, I was born in the wrong body". You cannot harbor resentment against those born with a problem, whereas CD is seen as a personal choice of the individual to live a perverted lifestyle.

By transitioning, TS are conforming to the traditional view of gender. See, they had a problem, but it has been corrected so everything is back to the way it should be. Society can appreciate a TS' wish to conform to a cisgendered society. CDs do not conform, they do perverted things behind closed curtains and make no attempt to correct their abnormality.

There have been many high profile movies and documentaries which highlight the plight of TS which have garnered much sympathy. In contrast there has been no equivalent exposure to CDing, instead it remains a dirty perversion to be laughed at and ridiculed on exploitive TV shows and comedies.

CDs are viewed as drag queens, making a mockery of women with over-the-top clothes, make-up, excessive focus on sexuality. TS do everything possible to pass and fit in as a normal everyday woman.

[ta2]

It seems to me gay is more accepted by the publick and and CD TV/TS
are looked at more like some creepy wierd mental person

[battybattybats]

Some countries where homosexuality is a crime have embraced the notion of TS as a medical condition. Iran iirc was one where the state pays for srs.

[Veronica 1]

Well, being recently accepting of who I am, I would say that the CD'r would usually be considered gay or lesbian as when we are first coming out, where do we feel most comfortable? Gay and lesbian bars or other hangouts. This is not because they are accepting, but because they are more accepting of who we are. As for the transsexual/CD difference, I look at it as a transsexual knows that that is right for them and they are willing to put in the time and money to recreate their bodies to the the image in their own personal conception of their life whereas the CD is a person who, for the most part, remains hetro but just likes to feel satin and lace upon their freshly shaved body. It matters not to the general public, though, as they have had their preconceived idea for a long time and it is up to us to bring ourselves forward to acceptance in the same right as the gays and lesbians. I mean really, what is the difference between us preferring satin to some "straight" who likes the feel of wool?

[Satrana]

Yes Batty I was surprised to hear about Iran. But it goes to show that if TG issues are converted into another status like medical or spiritual, then the taboo (sinful) status is removed and people's prejudices are reduced. What was unacceptable yesterday is acceptable today.

The problem CDs face is nothing more than an irrational, uninformed perception that we are doing something morally wrong. So long as CDing is believed to be immoral, others will not address their own prejudices against CDs unless forced to by personal circumstances. Like it or not, nothing will change for us until public perception changes for the better.

[battybattybats]

I suspect that, in the case of Iran, a MTF TS undergoing surgery would be more readily accepted than a FTM or a CD who does not permanantly transition. The first maintains the rigidly polarised extremes of gender and is choosing to give up the extra privilidges of being male wheras a FTM is gaining previously forbidden privilidges and a CD is diluting the perception of polarised opposites in gender by existing in between the states rather than crossing over from one side to the other and staying there. By making the surgery more readily available the Iranian government may actually be trying to normalise the TG population swiftly to minimise the impact they may have on the society. Assuming that they are ignorant of or disbelieving in the differences between CD and TS transgenderism.