Is rejecting/accepting your SO based on your PERCEPTION of the relationship?

[Wickanne GG]

This is assuming you are in a relationship and you did not know about your SO’s gender issues and/or the degree of the issues until after the relationship began.


OP by Wickanne GG
That actually opens up something I never thought about before.……..I assumed that when a man is making love to a woman while he is enfemme he would feel very 'male'. So I'll flip my question for you. Do you think you would feel femme or masculine in that situation? If you felt femme, would you see it as a lesbian or a heterosexual encounter?

OP by Susan Anne
I feel/act/talk/percieve like a woman when en femme. This would include typical female activities such as shopping, chatting, home decor and etc. but could also include sports or other so-called "man" stuff. However these all would be experienced by me from a female outlook and point of view. I am not attracted to men sexually and desire only women. Therefore in making love to a woman en femme I see it for myself as a lesbian experience since en femme I identify as lesbian. The lovemaking would take on a female to female flavor.


The preceding quotes are from another thread I start. After reading the replies to the thread, the assumption I made in the quote may not be as clear-cut as I had thought. Part of it may have been due to ignorance (lack of information) or part of it may be due to my ego…there is the possibility it is a combination of both.

It struck me that one doesn’t often hear/see what a GG would think of such an encounter. Is her reason for rejecting/accepting a CD based on how she does/would perceive the relationship? I have tried to encourage someone else to start a thread on this but perhaps because of the subject matter a female best broaches it.

This is the type of question I like because it is open to the majority…it is about MM, MF, and FF relationships and how one perceives it. Perception [seems to be my favorite word lately] rarely has a right or wrong answer but never fails to enlighten and bring about an understanding when participants approach it with an open mind.

***********************

I have never found myself attract to other GGs. When asked about my sexual preferences I, usually, responded with some flippant quip such as, I’d rather suck the spoon than lick out the bowl. It got my point across. Then one day I found myself extremely attracted to a male enfemme. Oh, yeah…that got me thinking about my sexuality. I struggled with it because my eyes where telling me one thing (hmmm, sexy lady) and my mind was telling me something else (may look like a female, but he is a male). Now, if I thought he looked like a female then why was I so attracted to him?

Some background information is necessary here. Although I am genetically female I am not what one would label a ‘typical’ genetic female. I have the aptitudes most strongly associated with males…strong mathematical skills, strong spatial perception, and strong mechanical aptitude. I can program and run CNC equipment and a whole lotta other things but I cannot frigging flip an egg over-easy without breaking the yoke. My current pursuits are degrees in Industrial/Process Engineering and Mechanical Engineering. I really have poor writing skills; I suck at spelling and sentence structure. As a youngster, I always watched and participated in sports, totally despised anything on my feet, pulled things apart and, successfully, put them part together…it wasn’t until I got older did I start having extra parts. I know how to knitting, cook, do needlepoint, and most other “typically” female pursuits and I do them quite well, but they don’t interest me. I am tall, have large hands, large feet and broad shoulders. I like getting my hands dirty and the smell of 10W30 (the scent of 10W50 is too heavy for me) I like stockings with seams up the back, silk, lingerie, and high heels, but I don’t like blouses with ruffles around the neck. Once, I was accused of being a MTF CD.

So why was I so strongly attracted to his femme persona. Some will argue, and rightfully so, that I have predominately male genetics and I was born into the wrong body. I have no interest, at all, in being a FTM CD but that could be because I wouldn’t want to be a “male” and live within the strict confines males generally have to live in. IE: Social stigmas attached to almost everything a male does. I believe I was born into the correct body. I am one of those who are truly blessed to have the best of both worlds, I can move fluidly between both. The only things I cannot do which are male involves a certain appendage that I do not have. I can pretty much do anything female. I have no desires to be with a GG, I just don’t. At first glance, I saw my attraction to his femme persona as ‘lesbian’ in nature. Yet, I believed I “allowed” myself to be so strongly attracted to her because I knew underneath she is male, if she had the male parts than she could play in my sand box. I knew the breasts would come and go. I am not a breast person…I am definitely a penis person. My sexuality came out of the struggle intact. But would all GGs be so lucky or would some continue to struggle? Would some give up because it’s just a lot easier not to deal with it?

I perceived making love with him as a heterosexual act. I perceived making love to him while he was in female clothing, stocking, high heels as a heterosexual act. Really, clothes are just a cover it doesn’t matter what they look like.

The tricky part of this, how would I have perceived making love with him if he had been in total femme mode? I would not have perceived it as a lesbian encounter. It would have been sex between me and a man in a ‘costume’ because, realistically, most women don’t wear make-up to bed, very few wear a bra while making love and most of use don’t worry about how our hair looks during the throes of passion. Did I fantasize about making love to him in full femme mode? Yes, but I was having a difficult time trying to figure out what and how to do it, how to be “male” about it. I had to think of it as me trying to seduce HIM out of HIS clothes. At no time did I see it as lesbian in nature.

Now, because of my other thread, I have to look at it from an angle I hadn’t thought of before. If he is a simple CD then he would see sex between us as heterosexual, I do not have an issue. If he is a transsexual presenting himself as a CD and seeing himself as a woman and perceiving a sexual encounter as lesbian, I have an issue with it and this is where my perceptions may take a beating. Most straight women, including myself, do not want to make love to another woman or anyone who “thinks” he is a woman because you will present and project yourself to us as a woman and we don’t want to make love to a woman.
[NOTE: This is my perception. This is based on knowing myself well. I have not, to my knowledge, been in a relationship where he felt he was a woman and perceived love making as a “lesbian” encounters. It never crossed my mind to ask.]

I am going to play the devils advocate here. This will not apply to some of you:
We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth. Sure you have lived with your struggle, shame, and desire to be a woman but you will never know or come even close to knowing what it is to be a woman, no more than I, with my background, could ever possible know what it is to be a male. How can you claim to embrace something you are not and never will be? We take exception to you trying to cross the line into our world. We dislike you for getting to call yourself a woman without having known the hardships (physically, biologically, and emotionally). We hate that you got the ‘easy’ pass to being a woman. We are a territorial bunch, but then if you were a woman you’d know that ;-)

For me, I will respect whatever ‘label’ you want to use, just be honest and open about how you perceive yourself. Allow me to make my decisions based on how I feel and not how you think I should feel or what you fear the outcome will be. To the average heterosexual female, making love to a man who perceives himself as a woman in a lesbian sexual act is like a betrayal and it is “icky” to us and don’t expect us to love you for it. It knocks our whole sense of what a heterosexual relationship is out of whack. That alone should tell you, you are still a male and thinking with your penis because you cannot see it that way. If it happens that you can understand it, yet still continue to push your needs to the forefront of the relationship (you haven’t learned one of the basic tenets of being a woman…sometimes your needs are put on hold for the good of the relationship…so take a number and sit down) then you are not respecting us as individuals so how can you expect the same in return?

Would I reject a SO based on the perceptions of others? No! I don’t give a flying…oops, careful there…what other people perceive my relationship with someone as.
Would I reject a SO who perceives himself as femme and the relationship as heterosexual? No.
Would I reject a SO based on his perception of himself as a woman and perceiving the relationship as ‘lesbian’? Yes, because it is not who I am. Like any other trait I may find undesirable in a mate, which would influence me to reject him. I haven’t evolved to a point where I can wrap my head around it and I don’t believe I will.
Some may argue that unless he told me he thought this way I wouldn’t know. There’s a lot more for a man to be in a ‘lesbian’ relationship than putting on a dress and make-up. I would know.

After reading posts on here, I have also come to understand the frustrations of some of the GGs. I never really understood why a GG got so upset about her man wanting to wear clothes of the opposite sex. For some, me included, it isn’t just about the CDing….


OP by Satrana

And yes you are correct there is a huge spectrum of states inbetween simple crossdressing based solely on clothing to transgenderism and transexuality. Some people stay static on this continuum, but many will move along it over time. How far they travel is individualistic, no-one can tell, even the CD themselves. We spend a lifetime discovering what it all means, we never stop learning.
And the labels are very confusing especially more so when they are missing. A statement about transitioning from a TS who you assumed was a CD is going to give you all sorts of grief!

….it is also about the fear of where her SO is in the “spectrum” and where he is going to end up.

I know the “labels” and wording will vary slightly depending on your situation…eg. A FTM CD and F relationship.

:love:
Wickanne

[Julie York]

I can't contribute directly to the topic but it was an interesting post so I hope I am not going off topic.


But I can add to your confusion.:D

When a crossdresser is all dressed up, they can perceive of themselves as a woman who is either gay or straight. But also, they can perceive of themselves as a man who has been all prettified.

So a GG may find herself in a relationship with a 'lesbian', a "straight" woman, or a sub-male.


That clears that up then.:D

[PaulaJaneThomas]

If you're attracted to someone then labels shouldn't matter IMHO. There can never be too much love in the world.

[Wickanne GG]

Do you really think you, or anyone, could followed a post of that length if I had not incorporated "labels"?

:love:
Wickanne

[Carin]

"Relationship" is one of my favorite words. It is grossly misunderstood. IMHO a relationship is how you relate to someone, and how they relate to you. I have witnessed a relationship that could only be described as "In Love" based on how they related to each other, that lasted for many years between two women, and they did not even know.

I think you may have hit on the core challenge of acceptance of CD'ing in a relationship. This is so NOT about labels, let's not go there.

We all want to be accepted. As a CD I want to be accepted. I want a relationship. I don't want cd'ing to be a challenge to the relationahip. So we all have the same goals. But it is not so simple.

You can love a person without regard to their gender identity. But is is not a given that someone will relate to you in the same way with no regard to you gender identity. So the characteristics of how you CD (labels do help in defining this) can play a vital part in the quality of the relationship - how you relate to each other. Exactly as Wickanne said. We are all human - not perfect. How we relate to one another is leveraged on our own personal preferences, including sexual preferences.

We can evaluate our personal preferences. Some may be traditionally defined. Some will have been defined by nature. We may decide that some of our personal preferences are not that important after all. Some are.

[Zee]

I feel that personally, I was born into the wrong body type. This has been a feeling for me since I was very small. Not knowing the trials and hardships other women may face is an accurate assumption; however I have prevcieved the trials and hardships amongst the females of my life, as they have seen the trials, tribulations and the harsh reality of the male side of life from me and other males in their lives. The insight this gives me is a quality of unique duality. I can see a situation from many sides and lends to a heightend sense of empathy towards others regardless of gender.

Without getting in to details, while I am intimate with my SO, I will do almost anything to satisfy her desire and needs as she would for me. At times, this lends to what some will call "kinky", but both my SO and I do not feel that we require a lable. I have often stated that I am a male lesbian. What I mean by this is that when I am intimate, I make sure her needs, wants, desires and if possible fantasies are met. There is no perception here if I am enfemme or not. She prefers not while intimate, but often she does not mind. To her, even if in my mind I desire to be a woman being intimate with a woman, in her mind, it is being intimate with the person she loves regardless of my state of mind at the time.

While my explanation of my personal experiances do not fall within the perview of the original post, it does lead to a point I would like to make. Regardless of personal perception, regardless of past and future experiances, in the end, you love whom you love. It does not matter if one partner feels more male than female or female than male. It does not matter what label one may place on another.

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!"

[Fab Karen]

You said play devil's advocate, which means you don't think that way, so the response is for those that do:
"You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vagina at birth. Sure you have lived with your struggle, shame, and desire to be a woman but you will never know or come even close to knowing what it is to be a woman, no more than I, with my background, could ever possible know what it is to be a male. How can you claim to embrace something you are not and never will be? We take exception to you trying to cross the line into our world. We dislike you for getting to call yourself a woman without having known the hardships (physically, biologically, and emotionally). We hate that you got the ‘easy’ pass to being a woman."
Some of this sounds directed at TS's ( & I'm sure TS's will tell you it ISN'T an "easy pass" )- as a CD I don't literally call myself a woman.
"Embrace something you are not"- I embrace a part of myself which this society tells us as men we are supposed to COMPLETELY reject, because supposedly "anything feminine is inferior."


"you haven’t learned one of the basic tenets of being a woman…sometimes your needs are put on hold for the good of the relationship"
I think plenty of guys in long-term relationships with women would say the same thing.

[Sheila]

Is rejecting/accepting your SO based on your PERCEPTION of the relationship?


for me i have to say no ............ what does kick in my rejection is lies, lies and more damned lies ........... give me the truth and I will get on and deal with whatever, lie to me and I find out and I am not a happy bunny ........ too many lies = me pulling away, carry it on and there will be no road back.

So my rejection/acceptance is based on whether he is telling me the truth not on my perception of the relationship

[Wickanne GG]

I reserve the right to change my view of anything I have posted, :D including this:

“Would I reject a SO based on his perception of himself as a woman and perceiving the relationship as ‘lesbian’? Yes, because it is not who I am. Like any other trait I may find undesirable in a mate, which would influence me to reject him. I haven’t evolved to a point where I can wrap my head around it and I don’t believe I will.”

I have always prided myself on being open-minded and to make a statement like… “….and I don’t believe I will,” contradicts my perception of myself. It doesn’t erase the fact that there are things in life I have a difficult time wrapping my mind around. Which is why I don't 'live' in my head. I get out and try to learn.

I suppose "perception" could be interchanged with "limits".

Most of us seem to have our limits. When my perception of my relationship had reached my [perceived] limit I backed out. Maybe out of fear (referring back to the “spectrum”), but I think mostly because I couldn’t get passed the fact that he was still looking for “admires” and other GGs and he had time for my g/f but not me…huge red ‘limit’ flag waving in my face. I left myself no road back when I ended it. Some of his reasons for getting involved with me in the first place may not have turned out as he had hoped…i.e.: a private place to change so he could attend meetings, I wasn’t going to be used for that. (<<< Perception/limit.) I have had notes that put him down and talk about how lucky he was and what most CDs would give to have someone like me, but I cannot put him down…I love him and to put him down would be to put myself down. Maybe I was the luck one :-) If it weren’t for him I would not have found such a great forum to expand my knowledge from…the other forum sites just seem so ‘limp’.

:love:
Wickanne

[Zee]

Wickanne, I think you did it right. When two people commit to a relationship, it is not a 50&#37; 50% deal. Each person should commit 100% of themselves to the relationship. In today's world, this does not happen as often as we would like. Often, one does not makes time for those in their life whom they care about (generalization). Carreers and hobbies take a considerable amount of time away from a relationship.

Indeed, it sounds like crossdressing may have contributed to the break, but the reason the break occurred was that he did not have time for YOU. YOUR needs, wants and desires were not being met. To me, it sounds like your SO needed to be with YOU more. Your "limit", as it were, had grown taut, and like a rubber band that was stretched too far, your "limit" snapped.

SO's, whether, male or female, in my opinion, need to treat each other as their best friends, as their ulitmate confidant, as an extension of ones soul. Cleave unto one another with complete mind, might, heart, and strength. This is hard to accomplish, but from what I have read about your situation, this did not happen. Indeed, it sounds from your description that your SO did not even try.

I am not saying anyone is at fault, all I am saying is that there may have been underlying issues that crossdressing may have been brought to light in your relationship.

:hugs:

Z

[Wickanne GG]

Wickanne, I think you did it right. When two people commit to a relationship, it is not a 50&#37; 50% deal. Each person should commit 100% of themselves to the relationship. In today's world, this does not happen as often as we would like. Often, one does not makes time for those in their life whom they care about (generalization). Carreers and hobbies take a considerable amount of time away from a relationship.

Indeed, it sounds like crossdressing may have contributed to the break, but the reason the break occurred was that he did not have time for YOU. YOUR needs, wants and desires were not being met. To me, it sounds like your SO needed to be with YOU more. Your "limit", as it were, had grown taut, and like a rubber band that was stretched too far, your "limit" snapped.

SO's, whether, male or female, in my opinion, need to treat each other as their best friends, as their ulitmate confidant, as an extension of ones soul. Cleave unto one another with complete mind, might, heart, and strength. This is hard to accomplish, but from what I have read about your situation, this did not happen. Indeed, it sounds from your description that your SO did not even try.

I am not saying anyone is at fault, all I am saying is that there may have been underlying issues that crossdressing may have been brought to light in your relationship.

:hugs:

Z

I know this is off top but I have to clear something up.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression here. I know he TRIED in his way. He did some amazing things for me that no one has ever done. But he hit my limit...my perception of where the relationship was going. I don't know too many people, regardless of sexual orientaion or anything, who wants to be put on the backburn for someone's obsession AND her g/f...WTF! The relationship is over, he got what he wanted, and we will all live happily doing what we like to do best.

I will say I have had some very interesting PM that would explain some of his behaviours, desires, fantasies...explained to me in ways I don't think he would have been comfortable talking about...but nothing explains having time my g/f and not me :p

:love:
Wickanne

[Zee]

...but nothing explains having time my g/f and not me :p


This is my point. Even though he thought he tried, he didn't understand your needs. In particular your need to have him with YOU and not your g/f. And the only person who will know why he had more time for your g/f than you would be him.

He tried, in his own way maybe, but he really didn't try hard enough. He may have done amazing things with you, but in the end, did he really understand that you had real issues with him spending so much time with your g/f? Did he really try to understand why you had issue with this? Did he really, whole heartedly try to make you happy in this regard?

I don't know the full circumstances of the issues, so please don't think I am blaming anyone. Everytime a relationship fails, both parties involved share the responsibility. I just don't think crossdressing was the issue, it only highlighted the issues already present in the relationship.

Be that as it may, I am really sorry the relationship didn't work out. :hugs:
Understanding why someone does something can only be explained by the individual who did it. I hope you have better success in your future relationships. :hugs:

[Alice B]

For someone that feels they can not write or present good sentence structure you are dead wrong. Kudos on a well articulated presentation that will help not only SO's on understanding and dealing with the issue of their loved ones dressing, but more so on presenting to the CDer a true understanding of the effects they have on others. It makes me sit up and think about what demands and perceptions I may unwittingly present to my wife. It makes me more understanding of the other side of the issue and presents a need for further discussion with her. Your presentation is something all of us CDers need to print and present to our SO's to further discussion and strengthen our relationships.:love:

[Mitch23]

And thanks from me to - I've learned much from this discussion

Mitch

[Michelle37]

thats a good story to. i read your other stuff and it helps me to. so thanks.
my cap lock button doesn't work. sorry.

[racquel]

I agree with several of the previous posts.You have rendered a very thought provoking article and I wish to thank you for it,it has given me a lot to think about.:thumbsup:

[Wickanne GG]

This is my point. Even though he thought he tried, he didn't understand your needs. In particular your need to have him with YOU and not your g/f. And the only person who will know why he had more time for your g/f than you would be him.

He tried, in his own way maybe, but he really didn't try hard enough. He may have done amazing things with you, but in the end, did he really understand that you had real issues with him spending so much time with your g/f? Did he really try to understand why you had issue with this? Did he really, whole heartedly try to make you happy in this regard?

I don't know the full circumstances of the issues, so please don't think I am blaming anyone. Everytime a relationship fails, both parties involved share the responsibility. I just don't think crossdressing was the issue, it only highlighted the issues already present in the relationship.

Be that as it may, I am really sorry the relationship didn't work out. :hugs:
Understanding why someone does something can only be explained by the individual who did it. I hope you have better success in your future relationships. :hugs:

Ooops again. His time with my g/f was not what you think. She wasn't interested and it was his attempt to contact her via the Internet. No excuses for him...I know.

I simply didn’t appeal to him in some way. I was another name for him to add to his list of flings. LOL…by now he’s probably forgotten my name. You are correct, we both contributed to the failure of the relationship…he acted and I reacted and he got the desired result.
________________________________

Thank you so much. It's very sweet of all of you...getting me a little choked-up here. :blushing:

:love:
Wickanne

[Zee]

Ooops again. His time with my g/f was not what you think. She wasn't interested and it was his attempt to contact her via the Internet. No excuses for him...I know.

I simply didn’t appeal to him in some way. I was another name for him to add to his list of flings. LOL…by now he’s probably forgotten my name. You are correct, we both contributed to the failure of the relationship…he acted and I reacted and he got the desired result.
________________________________

Thank you so much. It's very sweet of all of you...getting me a little choked-up here. :blushing:

:love:
Wickanne

You seem to be a wonderful and understanding woman. My heart bleeds for you that this happend. Anybody would be lucky to find a woman like yourself. Honest, sincere, kind and gentle (from what I have read).

Believe me when I tell you I know exactly how this can make one feel. Suffice it to say, this happend to me once a long time ago when my girlfriend wanted to spend more time with another friend of mine and only came back to me when she needed something. I ended it much the same way you did, I reacted, she acted.

***On Topic***

I am still very much in love with my wife of 9 years. We have two wonderful boys. My "perception" of myself as a crossdresser is that I was not granted the amazing gift of womanhood, yet mentally I view myself as a woman. I grew up around women, I have many lady friends and I can relate to them with ease. I can also relate to men as well, so in this regard, I am pretty easy going.

As far as where I view my wife within the spectrum of crossdressing, well I would die for her. I thank my lucky stars daily (sometimes hourly) that I found an understanding woman who accepts me for who I am inside. She is my life.

It gets a little more complicated for her when she tries to define herself within the spectrum of crossdressing. She doesn't like to talk about her feelings often, mainly because her past relationships and family would invalidate her feelings (and they still do to this day). She has opened up to me once or twice, but usually its nothing very specific. Its just not about crossdressing. She has a hard time articulating her love for her family, her passion for art, anything that is near and dear to her, she just can't communicate those feelings very well, and I believe she is frustrated by that fact. So I would hope that her "perspective" of where she falls within the sepctrum of crossdressing is like mine or somewhere close-by.

I can say this because she buys me make-up, skirts, blouses, lingerie, etc. She prefers me not to wear said apparel while intimate, but occasionally she doesn't mind. She is hesitant to do my make-up and nails, but doesn't care if I do it. Honestly, I do not think she ever did make-up and nails with her friends either so in that regard, I think its just her not wanting to do it. I wish she would, though; she once painted a complete mountain scape on both her big toes... I was awe struck.

***

Again, I wish you the best in any future relationship you may encounter. You are a bright and wonderful woman and don't let anyone (including yourself) tell you otherwise.

Luv
Z

[Hippy Chic's Chick]

For me, the acceptance is how much of an issue you or your SO make of the cross dressing. It's like any other part of a relationship and often on these forums I see it being intertwined with other problems such as unfaithfulness or selfishness.

The bottom line is that if my SO wasn't a cross dresser I'd still be narked at him for being selfish and the relationship would be over if he were unfaithful. Cross dressing is something else, it stands all on its own and it is a part of the man I love.

When cooking and cleaning I like to have music on. Loud :D. HC doesn't like that, so I tend not to do it while he's around, or I allow him to turn it down when he is (and turn it up again when he's not looking, hehe). In our relationship we've found a compromise that keeps us both happy, I put up with less mucic and he puts up with occassionally walking in the kitchen and moaning that it's too loud. He's never asked me to not play music, I do it less out of consideration and indulge myself when I can.

Now, with his cross dressing, I don't perceive a problem whatsoever. My music may drive him nuts, but I've never been annoyed or cross over what he wears. He told me about this as soon as the relationship became serious and slowly but surely he introduced more and more of his dressing to me (well, I think it was about him being open about it in his own time rather than revealing it to me). I don't care if he wears a bra daily and a nighty to bed every night.

The reason I have no problem with this and the reason it works for us is that actually, my perception of him doesn't change one bit. One of the things I first fell for him years ago was his ability to be open and honest and discuss real things - like a woman! That is a huge part of him, his sensitivity is the first thing that attracted me to him, that part of him is released all the more while he's dressed. If I love that part of him, what does it matter what he's wearing in order for him to physically allow himself to use that part of his personality? If I were to ask him not to dress, I'd lose a big part of him, some of the best parts of him (though I love his 'man' side too - I like the whole package). If he were to not dress, I'd be changing him and I'd be getting only a part of the man I love, where it's the whole of him I want and love.

When he's dressed, I perceive him as my man. He's not a woman, and some here might not like what I have to say about this, but hey - opinions have been asked for ;) The OP had a very good point, he will never be a woman, he'll never feel like a woman. He may feel more feminine, but clothes alone do not make a woman. He might be wearing femme stuff daily, but he still gets the better deal in the relationship all round (and it's not something I mind, I wouldn't change that). I'm the one who is up with the baby while he sleeps through it, I'm the one who the baby is given to if he cries, I'm the one who does my best with the housework while struggling with the baby and no sleep while SO goes for an afternoon nap. I'm the one who has the ultimate responsibility for the children, who has to put my career and plans on hold because we accidently made a new baby. The highlight of my life for the next few years will once again be a pat on the back because I got the toilet clean. I again have no financial independance. My body is knackered from 4 births and my C-section scar (6 months old) still hurts on occassions. Breast feeding wears me out. My job is to ensure the kids, the baby and HC are happy, fed and living in a reasonably clean and tidy home. That sucks, it's frustrating. I'm no less ambitious than any man - yet being a woman means I have to choose whether to dump the baby in nursery and look after my own needs, or do as mothering means and put my own needs last. This is something no man, knickers or not, can ever understand. So, while we're in the same house, the same family and the same relationship, we might be wearing matching undies but only one of us has a real grip on what it means to be a woman. The home life is only one example, real life as a woman, even outside of the home is something else - something wearing clothing and feeling feminine cannot replicate.

I've also talked to HC about going out clubbing as a woman and how that is. You're constantly on the lookout for the creeps and weirdos, because there are plenty of them. Some bars refuse to serve glasses to women because of the risk of drugging and will only allow bottles, where a thumb can be held over the neck of the bottle. An unattended drink is whipped up by bar staff. THIS is what a girls' night out entails. Being a woman incorporates so many things that are drummed into you that being afraid of leaving your drink for a second is done without thinking. Can a man really understand that?

I can understand the OP finding a CD man attractive. It is attractive and although she found it hard to express I think I know exactly what she means. There are some men who CD that are very attractive, rather than trying to look like a woman, they are happy to be somewhere in the middle. Definitely a man, but definitely feminine - and it's a very sexy look. There's something about a man who can be feminine and yet it's so obviously a man that it's shouting out at you that it's got to be one hell of a man for you to still see the masculinity.

I get really confused about the lesbian stuff when it comes to CDing. Having sex with HC is not lesbian sex. It's sex with my man, he might be wearing something pretty. I'm going to have to be careful how I explain this, hehe. We've discussed this before, the issue coming up on here many times. I've told him that if it were lesbian sex in his mind and we'd done the whole foreplay and the 'best bit' wasn't going to happen, I'd wallop him. Foreplay as a straight woman is about preparing for and wanting the 'best bit', I want the man bit! If that's what I want and that's what I know it's about, how then can it be lesbian sex? I am not making love to a woman, physically it's a man and that's what does it for me. Give me a partner who has physical girl bits and not only would it fail to arouse any interest, I'd be turned right off. That he's wearing stockings doesn't take away that physically he's a man, he's built like a man, he feels like a man and he can give me what a man can that a woman can't.

I fancy him whatever he wears. In all honesty, I'm more attracted to him in male clothing, but then I guess he's more attracted to me when I'm not dressed to clean toilets. It doesn't matter what he wears, he is who he is and I love him for that.

Acceptance I think is about keeping it in perspective and being open with each other. HC knows he can never be a woman simply because he's got a nighty on, the same as if I put my big comfy PJs on, I'm not a man.

CDing is not a problem. It only becomes a problem when it's used as an excuse for unacceptable behaviour. Lies, dishonesty and secrecy are a huge problem in a relationship and you don't have to cross dress to screw up that way.

[melissacd]

HCC, I want to compliment you on your wonderful post. Thanks for taking the time to share that with us. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

[Satrana]

I perceived making love with him as a heterosexual act. I perceived making love to him while he was in female clothing, stocking, high heels as a heterosexual act. Really, clothes are just a cover it doesn’t matter what they look like.

Yup, clothes are just clothes. This is where the big confusion steps in. Both CDs and GGs are guilty of perceiving a man wearing women's clothes as being a woman. The correct way would be to perceive the man as wearing pretty/sexy clothes. It is true that a fair share of CDs convince themselves that they are a woman when dressed but that is nothing more than a fantasy bubble. It would help matters between couples if the GG did not fall into the same trap by believing clothing transformed their man into a woman. This statement of course excludes TG/TS individuals.




We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth. Sure you have lived with your struggle, shame, and desire to be a woman but you will never know or come even close to knowing what it is to be a woman, no more than I, with my background, could ever possible know what it is to be a male. How can you claim to embrace something you are not and never will be? We take exception to you trying to cross the line into our world. We dislike you for getting to call yourself a woman without having known the hardships (physically, biologically, and emotionally). We hate that you got the ‘easy’ pass to being a woman. We are a territorial bunch, but then if you were a woman you’d know that ;-) Yes I had noticed the strong territorial aspect. It presents a big problem gaining acceptance from SOs. It does not make sense to me considering how feminism focused on knocking down the walls of male territorial power.


To the average heterosexual female, making love to a man who perceives himself as a woman in a lesbian sexual act is like a betrayal and it is “icky” to us and don’t expect us to love you for it. It knocks our whole sense of what a heterosexual relationship is out of whack. But how about a man imagining he is making love to another woman not his SO which is a common practice among men. For me, sexual fantasies should never be judged. What gets someone off is often disagreeable to the partner which is why such fantasies are never admitted to. If a CD fantasies during sex about a lesbian act then how would this hurt you more than him thinking of another woman? For me it is a problem only if he tries to move his fantasies into everyday life - but then that would likely mean he is TG/TS not a CD.



(you haven’t learned one of the basic tenets of being a woman…sometimes your needs are put on hold for the good of the relationship…so take a number and sit down) Sorry that is sexist, men absolutely do put their needs on hold all the time. It is as much a tenet for men as it is for women. Selfishness is individualistic, it is not based on gender.


Would I reject a SO based on the perceptions of others? No! I don’t give a flying…oops, careful there…what other people perceive my relationship with someone as.
Would I reject a SO who perceives himself as femme and the relationship as heterosexual? No.
You are definitely not an average woman. Those two statements would be a show-stopper for many women.



….it is also about the fear of where her SO is in the “spectrum” and where he is going to end up. There are a million things you could fear about - cheating, ill health, accidents etc all of which are statistically more likely to happen so why the big focus on where he may end up in the CD spectrum. For example 33% of men and women cheat on their spouses. Lets say 0.5% of CDs end up TS. That means your partner is 66 times more likely to cheat on you with another woman than he is to one day inform you he wants the operation.

It has always seemed to me that fears over crossdressing are greatly magnified out of all proportion to their actual occurrence and impact. I would explain this as "normal" threats and worries have already been accounted for in your thinking so an "abnormal" threat sticks out and causes undue fear. Unfortunately this fear often has a negative impact in that many SOs try to limit and prevent the scope and occurrence of crossdressing because they place undue emphasis on the fear of CD partner wanting to actually become a woman.

[Sheila]

HCC, I want to compliment you on your wonderful post. Thanks for taking the time to share that with us. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.


52541and I do hope that many many CDR's and their SO's read your post......... it is one of the most memorable, touching and totally honest post I have ever read on this or any other forum

Jess

[Wickanne GG]

HCC,

You read the OP then took the time and energy to type an honest reply. Thank you.

:love:
Wickanne

[Hippy Chic]

Hi there Wickanne,

HCC's other half here :D I missed this & HC has just brought it to me.

All I can say is a paraphrase of what I say to HCC's eldest son. He has Asperger's Syndrome. Sometimes his behaviour is unacceptable, & he uses his AS as an excuse.

I just tell him that AS may explain his behaviour, but it doesn't excuse or justify it.

In the same way, CDing may explain your partners' behaviour, it doesn't excuse or justify it either.

Hope this makes sense,

:) HC

[battybattybats]

He has Asperger's Syndrome. Sometimes his behaviour is unacceptable, & he uses his AS as an excuse.

I just tell him that AS may explain his behaviour, but it doesn't excuse or justify it.


How do you tell what is genuinely Aspergers caused behaviour and what is 'excuse'?

I for one have been frequently accused of using my own disability (Myalgic Encephalomyelitus aka Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) as an excuse by a family member who didn't understand what my illness actually meant (they thought I had it easy sitting around all day and was lazy). Eventually I got a total list of symptoms (in a research article that explained how the symptoms were comparable to those of people going through chemo for a fatal cancer) read it to them and said that if they found one thing I said was caused by my CFS that wasn't on the list I'd give them $1000 and if they accused me again of anything that was on the list they could choose to either pay me $500 or have me risk being bed-bound for a week by smacking them in the face with a piece of firewood.

I got a thorough apology and they stopped accusing me.

As you can tell being repeatedly condemned for something that you are afflicted by is pretty upsetting. I'm not suggesting the situation is that similar but it's potentially very cruel to expect people to be able to transcend their symptoms if such is practically difficult or, in my case, fundamentally impossible.

[jimb]

no doubt its complicated depending on the individual......as al individuals are.....but.....personally.......i'm a guy that just happens to like womens clothes......i'll always be a guy and have no intentions of being a woman....tho a pair of breasts wouldnt go amiss.....but am quite happy with the tackle lol

[Hippy Chic]

How do you tell what is genuinely Aspergers caused behaviour and what is 'excuse'?

I for one have been frequently accused of using my own disability (Myalgic Encephalomyelitus aka Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) as an excuse by a family member who didn't understand what my illness actually meant (they thought I had it easy sitting around all day and was lazy). Eventually I got a total list of symptoms (in a research article that explained how the symptoms were comparable to those of people going through chemo for a fatal cancer) read it to them and said that if they found one thing I said was caused by my CFS that wasn't on the list I'd give them $1000 and if they accused me again of anything that was on the list they could choose to either pay me $500 or have me risk being bed-bound for a week by smacking them in the face with a piece of firewood.

I got a thorough apology and they stopped accusing me.

As you can tell being repeatedly condemned for something that you are afflicted by is pretty upsetting. I'm not suggesting the situation is that similar but it's potentially very cruel to expect people to be able to transcend their symptoms if such is practically difficult or, in my case, fundamentally impossible.

Hi Batty,

I'll let HCC reply more completely about AS (I'm not going to hi-jack the thread), but I don't make it accusatory, it's about being matter-of-fact (which actually works well with Aspies).

It's more about parenting & hopefully equiping him with what is & isn't acceptable in the big wide world. Yet.

[battybattybats]

I am going to play the devils advocate here. This will not apply to some of you:
We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth. Sure you have lived with your struggle, shame, and desire to be a woman but you will never know or come even close to knowing what it is to be a woman, no more than I, with my background, could ever possible know what it is to be a male. How can you claim to embrace something you are not and never will be? We take exception to you trying to cross the line into our world. We dislike you for getting to call yourself a woman without having known the hardships (physically, biologically, and emotionally). We hate that you got the ‘easy’ pass to being a woman. We are a territorial bunch, but then if you were a woman you’d know that ;-)

You know, maybe we have paid our dues to be women more than some women. A gay friend pointed out to me that gay folk who want to be parents must go to greater lengths whereas many straight folk become parents by drunken accidents so the gay parents have much more earned being parents.
In much the same way TGs of whatever sort face a level of discrimination that the last couple of generations of women have been substantially free of. We have suffered mentally, emotionally and often physically to be women. As a group our dues have been paid with the blood of suicide and murder victims.. thousands of them. Have we paid greater dues than a woman born into that state by accident?

And as for us not knowing what a woman is.. Well for starters we are born with an x chromosome (and please no pseudoscience about intelligence on the x, it's rot. So far there is little evidence that individual intelligence is genetically determined at all). Beyond that we are surrounded by women.. 52&#37; of people in most western countries are female. More importantly, as stated on the Australian tv program Insight during a discussion on a book written about the difference between male and female brains two neuroscientists pointed out that the variance between male and female brains on average was substantially less than the differance between any two men or any two women. They said that biologically, rather than culturally, there is very little differance at all between men and women.

Male or female then is mostly merely a matter of social indoctrination, position and role.

When I see the mental illnesses, the suicides, the hate crime violence, the discrimination etc I do not see an 'easy pass' to being a women. I see human beings trying to express part of themselves that is feared, hated, despised and taboo but who have no choice but to be themselves.

I don't see a victim and a villain here, I see two victims and a villain.. the victims are the TG who has had to suffer to be and to accept who they are because the world has told them it is wrong and the SO who suffers too because the world never told them the fantasy groom they were taught to crave might behave in this way.
The villain? The lies told in childhood social conditioning. The solution? Fighting against the arbitrary oppresive and evil rules of society.

[MJ]

OK first of i take offense to some of this post. i beg to differ, first of all some of us here have been born with a body of a guy and a mind of a woman we may be at the extreme end of the spectrum but we should have been born with a vigina but that did not happen all we want is to be "just one of the girls" " normal " and yes join the club of woman ... so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??


We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth.

trans man / woman go through hell and yes we also start out cross dressing as the opposite sex our true sex , it's tough and sure there are some who can live in both worlds ... you don't have gender issues thats why you can't understand why we do what we do


Sure you have lived with your struggle, shame, and desire to be a woman but you will never know or come even close to knowing what it is to be a woman, no more than I, with my background, could ever possible know what it is to be a male. How can you claim to embrace something you are not and never will be? We take exception to you trying to cross the line into our world. We dislike you for getting to call yourself a woman without having known the hardships (physically, biologically, and emotionally). We hate that you got the ‘easy’ pass to being a woman. We are a territorial bunch, but then if you were a woman you’d know that ;-)
.

there is nothing easy being this way , god if i could give this easy pass away i know most of us would...

in regards to how i deal with relationships i am still not sure so it's better to have none

[Satrana]

. More importantly, as stated on the Australian tv program Insight during a discussion on a book written about the difference between male and female brains two neuroscientists pointed out that the variance between male and female brains on average was substantially less than the difference between any two men or any two women. They said that biologically, rather than culturally, there is very little difference at all between men and women.


Absolutely, numerous studies have shown that the natural differences between men and women are minuscule. Apart from the obvious differences surrounding the sexual roles, all the observed differences between men and women are artificially created through gender conditioning. As such it is more than possible that anyone, no matter what their genetic makeup and what organs lie between their legs, can become a man or a woman and know exactly what that means and feels like. Being a man or a woman is little more than a state of mind and following a detailed set of rules and behavior.

The difficult part is that it is very hard, maybe impossible, to jettison all that you have learned since childhood to switch genders. If you were brought up as one gender as a child, that that experience will define who you are as an adult. But that does not mean that if you do decide to switch genders, your experience is any less real or relevant than that experienced by "genuine" men and women.

We are all trained to believe that the labels male and female mean something beyond the act of procreation. It is becoming increasingly evident that this is not the case, these are just labels for a job description which we are programmed to follow if we want acceptance from others.

[renee99]

all the observed differences between men and women are artificially created through gender conditioning.

So how would a 4 yr old boy who insists he's a girl, prefers to play with girl toys and engage in girl activities, when opposed and discouraged by his parents, fit into this model?

What about the intersex children who were surgically assigned and raised as one sex, and later became transgendered?

No, there's something underlying the parental and societal conditioning, such that even if parents cannot condition it INTO a child, they certainly have failed at finding a way to condition it OUT of a child.

[battybattybats]

Go back centuries and the boy who insists they should be a girl will be wearing blue. Change countries and it will be the kind of skin paint the child wants to wear and the piercing and scars they want when they come of age.

The important thing is the child identifies as being female inside and then will co-opt all the social conditioning intended for females as something that should aply to them.

Another possibility would be that the child finds themselves attracted more to the toys and clothes that are ascribed to girls and will then identify with being female.

Either version still allows for the vast majority of what is feminine to be socially/culturally determined rather than biological. There can still be a biological cause for the child feeling female on the inside but what is inside doesn't determine what clothes, behaviour or social roles are considered male or female.

Just glance at other countries, at history. You'll find a good share of warrior women, men wearing the soft fabrics, pink as a male colour and nodding for no and shaking the head for yes.

[Satrana]

So how would a 4 yr old boy who insists he's a girl, prefers to play with girl toys and engage in girl activities, when opposed and discouraged by his parents, fit into this model?

I am not sure how this affects the point I was making that males and females are indistinct from each other when all gender conditioned behavior is set aside? The fact that a 4 year old boy decides he wants one set of gender conditioning over another means he wants to choose what type of person he will grow up to be ie I want to grow up to be like my mother not my father. All this means is that he has observed the artificial differences society demands of men and women and states his preference and rejects the idea that he does not have a choice.

If we had a gender neutral society where everyone could look and act as they wished, there would be no gender confused 4 year olds in the first place.

The important thing to take away from this observation is that people want to believe that there is more to male and female than just a separate set of genitals. They want to believe men and women are distinct entities, two species which have defined differences. Scientific studies do not support this viewpoint, they are unable to pinpoint any discernible natural difference between the two sexes outside those relating to the physical sexual difference. This should not really be a surprise as we are the same species, the sexes only exist to swap genetic material.

Maleness and femaleness are just intangible labels much like our nationality. People used to believe Europeans, Africans and Asians were distinct species of humans with verifiable differences. Now we know that is rubbish, the observed differences between people of different nationalities are culturally induced. No matter where you are born, you have the same thoughts, feelings and emotions as everyone else. The same is true of gender. The qualities which we have earmarked as masculine or feminine are arbitrary, in reality they exist in both genders equally, differences are individual in nature not by gender.

[Wickanne GG]

It’s been awhile since I have read this thread. I cannot say I disagree with much of what has been stated between my last post and this post.


OP: MJ
OK first of i take offense to some of this post. i beg to differ, first of all some of us here have been born with a body of a guy and a mind of a woman we may be at the extreme end of the spectrum but we should have been born with a vigina but that did not happen all we want is to be "just one of the girls" " normal " and yes join the club of woman ... so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??

You are entitled to take offence but one would hope that you could understand the position of the ‘average’ GG, the ‘average’ GG as a SO. This is the reality of it in today’s world. I cannot say I agree with it, hence, the title of the paragraph, “I am going to play the devils advocate here….” Like it or not, it is the reality of what the ‘average’ GG thinks. All you can really do MJ is move out of an offensive mode [(so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??) Some women would reply…not even then does it make you a woman!] and move into a position that enables you to educate people in a positive light, if one wants change one must be an active participant for that change.


OP: Satrana
There are a million things you could fear about - cheating, ill health, accidents etc all of which are statistically more likely to happen so why the big focus on where he may end up in the CD spectrum. For example 33% of men and women cheat on their spouses. Lets say 0.5% of CDs end up TS. That means your partner is 66 times more likely to cheat on you with another woman than he is to one day inform you he wants the operation.

It has always seemed to me that fears over crossdressing are greatly magnified out of all proportion to their actual occurrence and impact. I would explain this as "normal" threats and worries have already been accounted for in your thinking so an "abnormal" threat sticks out and causes undue fear. Unfortunately this fear often has a negative impact in that many SOs try to limit and prevent the scope and occurrence of crossdressing because they place undue emphasis on the fear of CD partner wanting to actually become a woman.


You are thinking of the opposite extremes. Most GGs don’t get as far as thinking about SRS. (There are people who still don’t know what SRS is. I know, it’s difficult to believe but it’s true.) Call us a narrow-minded bunch, but being a woman, many women cannot imagine a male wanting to be a woman. Most GGs are concerned about the middle of the spectrum, him crossing the line into homosexuality. This is not an ‘abnormal’ threat to the average GG…it is in the realm of “normal” threats.
I understand this crossing of the line to mean he is either bi-curious, bi-sexual, homosexual, or transsexual. (Yes! labels are necessary.) Most women cannot even deal with the bi-curious step and it is their right and their choice not to deal with it. I have read posts on here referring to gay men using dressing as their ‘cover’ for engaging in homosexual activity. I have a thread about the perceptions a CD may have while dressed. Someone I love has crossed that line (bi-curious) and came back. This was prior to use meeting. Whether he stays “straight” or not no one knows, without knowing what is going on inside of his head.

I’ll include part of one quote from a woman here. “…it’s bad enough I have to compete with other women, now I have to complete with men too!” No comment is necessary about the partial quote because you don’t know the rest of the quote and I won’t reveal it. BTW, the issue is resolved.

I find a vast majority of people on this site to be very intelligent and sometimes this may impede communication with the average person in real life. Whether it’s explaining why a line of code has to be inserted into a cnc program or explaining why men like to wear dresses, I have learned that sometimes it is necessary to “dumb it down” a bit to help people digest/understand what I am saying to them.

You and I understand statistics, but I can tell you, with complete certainty, that the average woman doesn’t understand statistics nor does she really give a sh!t about the ‘mean’ when faced with this possibility. The only choices are education and communication. A GG needs all the information to make an educated decision about what is best for her.

:love:
Wickanne

[Satrana]

Most GGs don’t get as far as thinking about SRS. Cannot say I agree with this. The two big questions CDs always face when they tell a woman about crossdressing are : are you gay, do you want a sex change operation. I would say both are equally worrisome for most women.


Most women cannot even deal with the bi-curious step and it is their right and their choice not to deal with it. Personally I don't see the difference whether your partner cheats with a woman or a man, cheating is cheating period and it shows the relationship is facing serious challenges. I don't see the point in differentiating between them. The other person , whether man or woman, is obviously filling a need that is not being met.


You and I understand statistics, but I can tell you, with complete certainty, that the average woman doesn’t understand statistics nor does she really give a sh!t about the ‘mean’ when faced with this possibility. My point exactly, highly unlikely situations are given equal or greater focus than much more likely threats such as cheating with another woman or just the relationship falling apart due to lack of commonality, lack of empathy etc. There is a tendency to believe that crossdressing is somehow at the root of all problems in the relationship. Since crossdressing is a "problem he brought to the table", the tendency is also to focus the blame on the CD with the SO overlooking how her attitude and behavior may be contributing to the problem.

It is not fun to live with a partner who becomes paranoid or gives undue concern over a certain behavior of yours and ends up watching and analyzing everything you do looking for signs that your behavior is progressing towards an undesirable end (whether that be engaging in gay sex or having SRS).

[Sheila]

It is not fun to live with a partner who becomes paranoid or gives undue concern over a certain behavior of yours and ends up watching and analyzing everything you do looking for signs that your behavior is progressing towards an undesirable end (whether that be engaging in gay sex or having SRS).


Then you try living with a lying crossdresser (and many of us SO's do).......... you know so many times we as GG's notice more than you males think, then when we ask questions, you turn the suspicions ......(that many many times have a factual basis behind them ....... only you don't know we have them) ........ around and accuse US of paranioa :Pfft:

If you don't want us to apper paranoid then give us
A) credit for not being as stupid as some of you all think,
B) the truth ........especially if we are asking questions around the subject.


I used crossdresser here .......... but it could apply to any relationship and any activity that produces apparent paranioa based on apparent untruths

[Satrana]

Then you try living with a lying crossdresser (and many of us SO's do).......... you know so many times we as GG's notice more than you males think, then when we ask questions, you turn the suspicions ......(that many many times have a factual basis behind them ....... only you don't know we have them) ........ around and accuse US of paranioa :Pfft:


Well if there is a factual basis then that is not paranoia, but if there is no basis, then it is paranoia. If your partner is truthful then a SO's paranoia can be very hurtful. If your partner lies to you all the time then I guess they deserve all the paranoia that would entail.

Question: why would you choose to stay with a lying partner?

[Sheila]

Well if there is a factual basis then that is not paranoia, but if there is no basis, then it is paranoia. If your partner is truthful then a SO's paranoia can be very hurtful. If your partner lies to you all the time then I guess they deserve all the paranoia that would entail.

Question: why would you choose to stay with a lying partner?

because in the beginning you hope that your suspicions are just that, suspicions, and when they prove not to be you continue to work on your relationship hoping that the lies and deciept stop, that you can step forward together into a more stronger relationship, built on truth and trust ........... when the lies and deception continue and for some it does, and when it gets too much, the relationship is ended ........... I know because we seperated on Monday of this week. I love the guy to bits I just can't live with the lies and deception ....... you see we don't always walk out at the first bump, for many the rollercoaster really does get way out of hand


If your partner lies to you all the time then I guess they deserve all the paranoia that would entail.


if they are lying then we are not paranoid are we......... and even if we are paranoid it don't mean they ain't out to get us:D

[Wickanne GG]

Cannot say I agree with this. The two big questions CDs always face when they tell a woman about crossdressing are : are you gay, do you want a sex change operation. I would say both are equally worrisome for most women.


We can agree to disagree on this one. 'Average' GG finds out her man is a CD the most common first question is, "Are you gay?" It takes awhile to get to the SRS question, mostly because it doesn't cross her mind until she reads something about it.

Personally I don't see the difference whether your partner cheats with a woman or a man, cheating is cheating period and it shows the relationship is facing serious challenges. I don't see the point in differentiating between them. The other person , whether man or woman, is obviously filling a need that is not being met.

You assume this is just about already estblished couples? I agree, cheating is cheating. Not too many people will argue that. I am talking about...girl meets boy...boy says, I am a CD...girl says, Cool, [insert time to estabish trust here] have you ever had sex with other men?...boy says, yes...girl says, bye. Because it is her right, regardless of what we think is the right course of action, to decide she doesn't want that in her life...she is free to preceive as she pleases.


My point exactly, highly unlikely situations are given equal or greater focus than much more likely threats such as cheating with another woman or just the relationship falling apart due to lack of commonality, lack of empathy etc. There is a tendency to believe that crossdressing is somehow at the root of all problems in the relationship. Since crossdressing is a "problem he brought to the table", the tendency is also to focus the blame on the CD with the SO overlooking how her attitude and behavior may be contributing to the problem.

A man confronts you in a dark alley...which would be the greater threat, if that man had a knife, if the man had a BB bat, or if he had a handgun? Everyone sees a threat differently...everyone has their reason for the order in which they would place those three threats. "Statistically" the average person will place the handgun as the greater threat, but a "thinker" will place the_______ as the greatest threat. :D I'll let you fill in the blank.

For me, CDing isn't a threat. If "pink fog" becomes an issue. Deal with it and move on, either to-gether or you go your separate ways.

For alot of GGs it is an issue...we can agree on this.

I think even you must admit that there are cases where CD is clearly the root of the problems in a relationship...come on now. Maybe we need to agree to disagree on this one also.


It is not fun to live with a partner who becomes paranoid or gives undue concern over a certain behavior of yours and ends up watching and analyzing everything you do looking for signs that your behavior is progressing towards an undesirable end (whether that be engaging in gay sex or having SRS).

Trust me, I know a couple of people going through this right now and neither are in a very good place as a result of her fears and his insensitivities.

:love:
Wickanne

Jess... many :hugs: to you sweetie.

[Satrana]

I know because we seperated on Monday of this week. I love the guy to bits I just can't live with the lies and deception ....... Very sorry to hear that, lies destroy relationships that is why I asked:hugs:



and even if we are paranoid it don't mean they ain't out to get us:DReminds me of Invasion of the Body Snatchers......don't fall asleep or we CDs will take over the bodies of females.:eek:

[BarbaraTalbot]

because in the beginning you hope that your suspicions are just that, suspicions, and when they prove not to be you continue to work on your relationship hoping that the lies and deceit stop, that you can step forward together into a more stronger relationship, built on truth and trust ........... when the lies and deception continue and for some it does, and when it gets too much, the relationship is ended ........... I know because we separated on Monday of this week. I love the guy to bits I just can't live with the lies and deception ....... you see we don't always walk out at the first bump, for many the roller coaster really does get way out of hand

I just want to say to you (and my wife too through this post) that I am sorry for the pain that deception has caused.

I admire your willingness to try repeatedly. I am truly sorry for both of you that this hasn't been something that he was ready to face head-on.

I admire the balance that you struck in your post between being clear about behavior and its consequences so that all might benefit from your experience, without (imo) seeming accusatory, shrill, or defensive about what you needed to do to protect your feelings.

I wish you both well.

[Satrana]

For alot of GGs it is an issue...we can agree on this.

I think even you must admit that there are cases where CD is clearly the root of the problems in a relationship...come on now. Maybe we need to agree to disagree on this one also. No question about it, often the CD does mess things up. If you check my posts you will see I often criticize CDs for not taking responsibility for their behavior. I am an equal opportunity criticizer:D

My statement was not a dig at SOs, rather it was a psychological analysis that when one partner brings a "problem" the other partner will invariably blame the first partner for any problems that they perceive arising from the "problem". In doing so it is human nature to consider yourself the victim which blinds yourself as to how your own behavior, statements and actions contribute to the problem. And during trying times empathy tends to be thrown out the window which makes helpful communication very difficult to achieve usually resulting in a painful stalemate. This is true for both men and women, it does not matter which brings in the issue because that partner then becomes the PROBLEM.

One of the most important lessons I ever learned was how much another person's behavior and attitude towards you was directly influenced and controlled by your attitude and behavior towards them. It seems an obvious point but few people understand it. It is much easier to write off a person as a jerk when they react unfavorably towards you, however in reality you almost certainly said or did something which provoked them, you just did not realize it.

Typically when a CD reveals his secret it is a very scary and traumatic experience for him, however the SO is usually so lost at sea and traumatized herself that she loses sight how vulnerable the CD is. If she reacts negatively this will result in the CD becoming resentful which in turn feeds back as negativity towards the SO. The two then spiral downwards feeding off each other's negativity, each more determined to prove that they are the real victim and why can't the other see that.

What is needed is sensitivity and empathy from both of them that each is guilty of hurting the other. Both are victims of the stigmatization surrounding men expressing femininity. The CD is directly affected, the SO by association. Both deal with the issue with sexist overtones, CDs having highly stereotyped concepts of what constitutes femininity and SOs unable to let go of their stereotyped concept of what constitutes a man.

[Marcie Sexton]

Call me dumb if you want, but it was way over my head...TMI to a point...

I don't try to phsychoanalize things any more...I just accept things as they are and deal with them...

From my eyes there is much to much of making to much over nothing...but then again that is from my eyes.

[battybattybats]

Why does the 'average' GG that has been outlined here have such a possessive, combative and sexist view of their partners and of their own gender?

From what do these apparently common feelings emerge? Why is the fear of bisexuality so much greater than the more common threat of cheating?

And I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of a sex change, the 'SRS' term perhaps not but 'sex change' most certainly.

[AmberTG]

I must say that this is one of the most interesting, thought provoking, and well written discussions that I've read sense joining this forum! It is also quite distressing to me from a certain point of view, I'll get to this in a bit.
The opening post was very well written and articulated, and everything that has followed has seemed to add to the conversation instead of detracting from it. It is a complex issue, isn't it?
As far as my distress, reading the "devil's advocate" part really hits an exposed weakness in my "armor". I have had this discussion with my therapist on several occasions and, yes, I will never know what it's like to grow up in a woman's world. That, by itself, is depressing. I don't know what it"feels like" to be a woman from the viewpoint of someone who was raised as a woman, I totally lack the proper frame of reference for that thought process. I will always be missing something vital in that process, experience.
I am only one human being, trying to correct a lifetime of conflict and inner turmoil, and may never qualify for that thing that I long for most, to be accepted as a woman, because she lives inside this male body. I may always be excluded from the "girl's club" because of physical characteristics that hide the true person. There is nothing I can do about this except be depressed about it and hope for the best.
This is the part that both "normal" men and women will never understand about transgendered people. They lack the frame of reference to even begin to understand the the way we think and feel, and simply cannot "wrap their minds" around this thought process. Sense "normal" men and women make up the rules, we have very limited options. This is why so many post-ops disappear into the woodwork, simple acceptance.
Actually, this opens a couple of old wounds that I thought were healed.
Honesty in a relationship, that was all I asked for from my ex. It was the one thing I never got.
My depression tended to make me distant from her at times, that explains her affairs, but I don't think it excuses them. She needed attention that I was unable to give her at the time, she found it from others. I guess it turned out for the best for both of us. She got what she wanted and I have the freedom to transition. You know what Janis Joplin said about freedom? "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
I think I'm done for now.

[Satrana]

Amber

A very touching post. I would to comment on the issue that you are depressed about never being part of the "Girls Club", maybe you should never have this as an aim in the first place. What I mean is, both men and women proceed with their lives mostly blinkered, never seeing or understanding anything past that which preoccupies their lives. They think the rat race is the only way to be and make themselves unhappy chasing imaginary and unattainable goals. Don't set your sights on joining them.

Any group which exists outside the box, and TGs are one such group, are really in a privileged position as they can experience and appreciate life in a way that others never will. Yes it comes with a price tag, it can be painful and lonely not to conform but would you really want the mindless alternative?

If you have watched the Matrix, then do you want to be the human battery plugged in to a fantasy world who simply exists or do you want to experience life unplugged in the harsh but rewarding reality.

Conformity does not bring happiness, self acceptance does. If you can understand that a TG state of being has made you a better person then maybe you will hunger less to conform to normality. Or put it another way, as a woman you have experienced things that GGs never will. Maybe they are more jealous of you.:happy:

[AmberTG]

Satrana, that is a very valid point, sometimes I have to remind myself that I am who and what I am and that it's OK to be that way. I guess I just think about the difficulties of being alone and having no one to share my life with. For me, that has not been an easy thing. I don't relate to "normal" men very well, and most women see me as just another guy, so I don't get let into "the circle", leaving me "out in the cold". Friends are nice to have, they enrich one's life.

Here's another comment on the thread in general that seems to have been missed so far. One of the most fundamental differences between men and women, one of the things that make them different in the first place, is the sex hormone in the brain chemistry. This is the primary reason that women are more nurturing and men are more violent. Studies have shown that adding testosterone to the mix, be it male or female, increases aggressiveness and competitive drive.
This has a lot to do with why men and women think differently, on average. When a man says that he doesn't understand women, it's not just conditioning, it's also brain chemistry How can a man think like a woman when there's almost no estrogen in his brain? How can a woman think like a man when there's almost no testosterone in her brain.
Anyone on transgender HRT, be it MTF or FTM, can tell you how their thought patterns have changed. Studies have shown that changing hormones in the brain, over time, will cause certain structural changes in the brain tissue, small changes, but enough to be able to detect them.
The end result of this is; of course men and women don't think the same, their brains are wired differently by the sex hormone present during development from puberty on. This really does not explain the transgender phenomonon though, that is still a mystery.

[Wickanne GG]

Satrana and AmberTG…great dialogue :hugs:


Why does the 'average' GG that has been outlined here have such a possessive, combative and sexist view of their partners and of their own gender?

35 years (I can remember) of speaking with 1000's of people and I cannot answer that, but I will say this…if those are the adjectives you use when dealing with GGs in real life you may want to have a read or reread of post #42 in this thread, if it's not then don't worry about it.



From what do these apparently common feelings emerge? Why is the fear of bisexuality so much greater than the more common threat of cheating?

I’ll take a guess and say…hmmm, “Male or female then is mostly merely a matter of social indoctrination, position and role.” Sound familiar? I cannot say I disagree with what you stated. There are many articles dealing with why women are more threatened by a SO cheating on her with a same sex person than an opposite sex person. I am in the middle, both are equal…both are cheating.



And I've never met anyone who hasn't heard of a sex change, the 'SRS' term perhaps not but 'sex change' most certainly.

We obliviously travel in different parts of the world :D

#46 Kehleyr
I am going to play the devils advocate here. “This will not apply to some of you:”This thread has taken a slant towards the CDing. The issues I have dealt with are with regard to CDs. When it comes to TS, I am very aware of the “oops” factor at birth.


A GG is in a relationship and her SO decides he wants to wear panties. Hopefully, she can deal with it. Now he decides he needs more, perhaps a dress and high heels. One would hope the GG could deal with it, but not many are able to (generally, due to a lack of communication and social conditioning), but for this text she can deal with it. Moving along the “spectrum”. He now decides he wants the ‘look’ of a female…make-up, wig, nails. At this point some alarm bells are going to start sounding for the GG, but for this text, they work it out. Down the road, his current look isn’t enough and he wants breasts and hair removal. Right now he isn’t looking heterosexual to her, he’s looking more like the sex she is all to familiar with (female) and part of being female is to attract a male mate, but he has not voiced a desire to be with a man so the couple continues on their merry way.

Now we are in the middle of the spectrum, the imaginary line that separates what the GG knows to be heterosexual and everything else. For couples who have lasted this long, this is the point that seems to throw life into chaos (for various reasons) for both the SO and the CD. You have two people in a committed relationship, for this text, he was aware of his desires but suppressed them and never told his SO of his desires prior to the establishment of the relationship…the reason is irrelevant. The more he moves along the spectrum the more he is discovering about himself. He loves her, she loves him, BUT he now thinks there is more to his CDing then simply “looking” the part. He is struggling with the possibility that he wants to be with a man. He asks himself, but how can this be…I have been hetero all my life? So he fantasizes about being a ‘woman’ taken by a man and then beats himself up, emotional, for having such thoughts. He tries to satisfy his urges by spending hours on the Internet watching she-male porn and gay porn and any other kind of porn…living vicariously through others.

In the meantime, GG is standing back watching all this. She may not see it directly but she has an IDEA why he is coming to bed late, why he hits the “escape” key back to reality when she walks in the room, why he is experiencing mood swings, why the chores are not getting done. Most women are highly sensitive to change…blame the cave days when we had to notice change to protect our offspring…so she snoops. Why does the browser history show visits to pages with strap-ons, and other ‘kink’? Why he is hiding/deleting his IM history? She knows something is wrong because the communication has broken down. The CD assumes if the GG finds out she will leave him and decides not to tell her (he tells himself…what can it hurt? It’s probably just a phase I am going through. If he really believed it to be a phase then why wouldn’t he tell her? Let’s assume he is too embarrassed.) in effect canceling communication and removing her choice to make her own decisions.

Where is she going to learn about the issue if he won’t communicate with her? She has no choice but to think the worst because he won’t tell her any different. (Human nature to think negative when something appears ‘wrong’.) It is damaging to a GG to think her man wants to be with another man, likely a man is the last person she will think he is actually messing around with on the Internet. At this point, she may think it is a woman he is “emotional cheating” with, but in the back of her mind is the little voice she keeps trying to silence that says, it could be a another man because of the way he looks dressed.

Drama, lies, cheating and lack of effective communication are now taking over their lives. What is he going to do, he finds himself attracted to other men, but he is in a committed relationship and he loves his SO? The day finally arrives and he announces that he wants to explore his feelings regarding men. GGs jaw will hit the floor. Some GGs think bi-curious means “gay”…most of us understand the assumption to be a simple lack of education/knowledge. The average GG, being someone with little or no exposure to gender “issues” is not going to respond well. For the last few [insert your own duration], every time she asked the CD what was wrong his replies were, nothing, mind your business, this doesn’t concern you, I’m just going through a phase, stop pestering me.... Now she is expected to respond with, Okay, go fk or be fk by a guy, see what you think about it and let me know! Dream on CD dream on.

Using a quote from post 46, “…[but I don't think someone can flip a switch and convert back and forth between man and woman] (although that may not be a popular opinion in this forum). I do believe that some people are "genderqueer" or a "third sex", but that's a different case altogether.”

You are a TS woman and you don’t think it is possible. Damn, imagine an ‘average’ GG trying to wrap her head around it. In her mind, it isn’t about being bi-curious…she has already determined that he is gay because how is it possible for someone to flip back and forth between ‘gay’ and ‘hetero’ Let’s not forget, he’s had a few [duration] to try and figure it out while he was telling her to piss off, but now he expects her to just accept that he wants to be with a man. The perceived threat has now become the “other” man.

Placed in order of probability…(most probable)-What are the odds he is bi-curious? What are the odds he is bi-sexual. What are the odds he is discovering repressed homosexuality? What are the odds he is, after all is said and discovered, actually a TS? (least probable)-What are the odds he will transition?

It is one in a million GGs who will wait out the storm. They will not wait around to find out what he is, even if there is a stellar performance in the communication department. She perceives that he is not the man she original committed to. Some of you will argue that he is still the same man. If he is discovering parts of his being/personality he has repressed and is now expressing them then he has changed. (The extremes, hyper masculine to hyper feminine.) He is not the same person emotionally and/or physically. Just go read the threads about men discovering their femme side, how they have changed the way they feel (discovered empathy) or how they communicate with GGs.

A GG may perceive a pair of panties as a threat and end the relationship. Some may hang in there until the question of homosexual activity comes up (if it comes up), she will perceive the “other” man as the threat, and end the relationship. We all, both men and women, have limits. The rare GG will wait to see what happens after he crosses the imaginary line between what she perceives as heterosexual activities (If she has come this far clothing isn’t the issue…sexual activity and preferences are.) and what she perceives as homosexual activities. Sue us for it, but it’s just the way were are ‘wired’. (<< Good point Amber, I see we agree :-) But the opposite can also be true. Some GGs may end a relationship because he won’t wear panties or take on the ‘look’ of a female.

Let us all take a moment to bask in the glory of individuality….ohmmmmm…lol ;-)

So, the moral of the story is. It’s about communication and finding what ‘fits’ into your realm of possibilities. The crap happens when couples are mismatch, lack effective communication skills, and control becomes an issue because neither can come to grips with the fact that the only person you really have any control over is yourself.

This is only one example of a million possible scenarios composed from hundreds of conversation, so let’s not waste time nitpick the scenario.

:love:
Wickanne

[MJ]

You are entitled to take offence but one would hope that you could understand the position of the ‘average’ GG, the ‘average’ GG as a SO. This is the reality of it in today’s world. I cannot say I agree with it, hence, the title of the paragraph, “I am going to play the devils advocate here….” Like it or not, it is the reality of what the ‘average’ GG thinks. All you can really do MJ is move out of an offensive mode [(so until we cut our dicks off we are not a woman ??) Some women would reply…not even then does it make you a woman!] and move into a position that enables you to educate people in a positive light, if one wants change one must be an active participant for that change.

Wickanne



We will resent you for trying to come into our world in a male form “pretending” to be a woman.
You haven’t paid your dues into the Club of Women, the lottery failed to award you a vigina at birth.
sorry but that hurts

please i don't mean to offend anyone this is how i feel
that hurts real bad again it's better to have a gun to our head and end it all than go through the hell we do and yes so some woman don't like what we have become ..
how do we pay our dues so we can get in to the club of woman ???
what do i have to do to get in !!! psychologist will tell you i was never a guy !!! there for were does that leave me ?
it seams that in this world the are people who get who and what we are and then there are the people who don't ..
i understand we need to change attitudes and be positive but the question is how ? Thank You

[Wickanne GG]

sorry but that hurts

please i don't mean to offend anyone this is how i feel
that hurts real bad again it's better to have a gun to our head and end it all than go through the hell we do and yes so some woman don't like what we have become ..
how do we pay our dues so we can get in to the club of woman ???
what do i have to do to get in !!! psychologist will tell you i was never a guy !!! there for were does that leave me ?
it seams that in this world the are people who get who and what we are and then there are the people who don't ..
i understand we need to change attitudes and be positive but the question is how ? Thank You

MJ, I understand your feelings. I would be hurt too. These are things women say to me. I can try to change how they think, but it really means nothing coming from me. We agree, some people will NEVER understand your feelings.

I wish I had the magic answer for how to change attitudes. Mostly, it's like anything else that gets changed...a heck of a lot of positive communication and effective education.

:hugs:
Wickanne

[MJ]

true i guess someone has to go out there and tell the world the way it is . who among us will be first .... thats the problem

[battybattybats]

Wickanne GG said:
35 years (I can remember) of speaking with 1000's of people and I cannot answer that, but I will say this…if those are the adjectives you use when dealing with GGs in real life you may want to have a read or reread of post #42 in this thread, if it's not then don't worry about it.

If a GG I am talking to makes a sexist comment or disparages a group of other women I point it out. Thus far though that has not been a problem for me. Virtually all of them are still friends and the one exception ceased to be over something else (and the rest of my circle stopped talking to her too). Of course the small smile and the tone of voice that I say these things with end up missing in text form.

AmberTG said:
I am only one human being, trying to correct a lifetime of conflict and inner turmoil, and may never qualify for that thing that I long for most, to be accepted as a woman, because she lives inside this male body. I may always be excluded from the "girl's club" because of physical characteristics that hide the true person. There is nothing I can do about this except be depressed about it and hope for the best.
This is the part that both "normal" men and women will never understand about transgendered people. They lack the frame of reference to even begin to understand the the way we think and feel, and simply cannot "wrap their minds" around this thought process. Sense "normal" men and women make up the rules, we have very limited options. This is why so many post-ops disappear into the woodwork, simple acceptance.
Actually, this opens a couple of old wounds that I thought were healed.

:hugs:
It's posts like yours that remind me how deeply and vitally true it is that acceptance of differance diversity and freedom of expression is a moral and ethical obligation. It's true that the greater the differance and the closer the relationship with the person is the harder that acceptance is to hold and yes, people have the freedom to choose to do immoral, unethical and wrong things but those things are no less wrong. No less evil.

MJ said:
sorry but that hurts


please i don't mean to offend anyone this is how i feel
that hurts real bad again it's better to have a gun to our head and end it all than go through the hell we do and yes so some woman don't like what we have become ..
how do we pay our dues so we can get in to the club of woman ???
what do i have to do to get in !!! psychologist will tell you i was never a guy !!! there for were does that leave me ?
it seams that in this world the are people who get who and what we are and then there are the people who don't ..
i understand we need to change attitudes and be positive but the question is how ? Thank You
:hugs:
Bigoted statements always do hurt, even when they are reportings of the views of others.

Bigotry is an extention of ignorance and/or fear.
Willfull ignorance, where someone refuses by choice to consider or accept new evidence whether because they have attached too much emotion to prior beliefs, had them become deeply ingrained to the point where it's become reflexive and they are too lazy to root them out or for whatever other reason is just totally and absolutely unacceptable. It is a betrayel of thought, of reality, of truth.
Everyone exists in a state of ignorance about many things, people pick up unconciously biased and bigoted views of all sorts of subjects, on race, religion, the sexes, sexuality. We all have to be prepared to examine ourselves for these biases, to learn more about the things we dislike, fear or look down upon, to challenge the views we hold rather than blindly defending and rationalising them. Not to do so is to do wrong just as racists who stay being racists do wrong, chauvenists who remain chauvenists do wrong, homophobes who remain homophobic do wrong.

:hugs:
Being human, doing the right thing, is hard. Let us all try to be patient with each other and to reach out, not just to fellow human beings in similar situations to ourselves but also to the ones we most dissagree with, that we most hate, that we most fear and that hurt us the most. Not as placation but from genuine sympathy with the ignorance and struggle that they too live within.

[AmberTG]

Wickanne, I can see that you've had a lot of time to think about this in depth! I believe your analysis holds up pretty well for most situations, and not just for CDing, I can think of a number of issues between spouses that this would apply to. The CDing issue just happens to be a particularly difficult issue for many people, it really is a matter of preference and perception. If a woman, or man, for that matter, really just can't handle something the spouse does, or is, for whatever reason, it will cause a breakdown of the marital relationship.
I can't speak for the CDers but, as a TG person, we just have to accept the possibility that it will end the relationship with a spouse. It seems to come with the territory, unfortunately. It's certainly not the way I would prefer it, but the only person I have any control over at all is myself. My ex left me because she wanted a relationship with a "real" man and, lets face it, I'm not. I don't really know what I am, but I do know what I'm not.
I must say, again, that this is the most in-depth discussion that I have personally seen on this website. It's really been food for thought for me.

[Wickanne GG]

:yt:

I am glad we all can feed each others brains....no 'silence of the lambs' jokes please :D

:love:
Wickanne