CDs v's Goths - Societies View

[~Tammy~]

Hey all,

A collegue at work is evidently a goth type of person. Long black hair, always black clothes and also has very long fingernails. Just recently he has been sporting bright pink nail polish on those nails. Now no-one, that I'm aware of, has commented about this at all.
It seems that just because a guy wears black clothes and has long black hair, he can get away with these kind of things.

Is this because goths are more accepted by society than CDs?

Then there's me, being an average type of er.. guy (pah!), short hair, blue jeans, etc. What if I suddenly started wearing pink nail polish at work. I wonder what my collegues would be talking about then!

Now I'm not suggesting a goth can wear skirts and not be gawped at anymore than me turning up to work in a tu-tu. But it seems certain people with certain looks are entitled to wear make-up, nail polish etc without anyone battering an eyelid.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

~Tammy~

[Nyx]

Surely there must have been comments about his gothness before... Its just that people got used to him being a *weird* person...You also have to take in account that you're not in high school anymore, and that people have better things to do than comment on other people's look... But, just like that, does he have that many friends at work?

Here at my university theres some lesbian girl thats always exhibiting her laptop with a girl in lingerie as her desktop background. She has piercings and started wearing a kipah on her head recently... Nobody made any comment.

As for me... I'm a cd, and I'm buying strictly black clothes to give myself a goth look... So I'm going to be a goth cd girl ;)

[Tamara Croft]

Didn't you know pink is the in colour for men??? Maybe you should go to work with your nails painted pink.... LOL I can just imagine what (Q) would say to that!!!!

Tamara x

[Midnight_Minx]

Being goth (in drab and also CD), I can offer a little insight into this. Society already thinks of goth people as "being a little strange", thus they're overlooked, or not even mentioned. I have often worn black nail polish to work, (with my blue hair, or even my now reddish brown hair), and nobody mentioned it -- some didn't even notice.

Also, the work place is getting to the point now, where they have to accept people's differences (whole issues of discrimination and al), unless there is a very strict dress code to the office. As long as they still do their work, I think most places may not care as much.

Nail polish isn't as drastic a change as attire, and usually is overlooked frequently.

Luv

~Viv~

[~Tammy~]

Nyx,

I understand what you mean, that people have gotten used to him being weird so dont need to comment.
So I figure this.
I'll start wearing all black clothes all the time
Die my short hair darker and darker very slowly so no-one notices a big change until it's all black and let it grow so I 'very' gradually change into a goth.
Then eventually people will accept that me being weird is normal.
Then I can start painting my nails which won't be such a big deal.
Then I'll start wearing long skirts like some goths do, and slowly make them shorter and shorter.
After a while I'll die my long hair blonde.
Eventually I'll be able to wear girlie tops.
and ... hey presto! I'll be going to work dressed completely like a girl :D

Nah. On second thoughts that'll all take to long. Think I'll just turn up tomorrow looking like a tart and get it over with. Probably get some grief for a few days, then they'll get used to it and again no-one will comment!

[Nyx]

Nyx,

I understand what you mean, that people have gotten used to him being weird so dont need to comment.
So I figure this.
I'll start wearing all black clothes all the time
Die my short hair darker and darker very slowly so no-one notices a big change until it's all black and let it grow so I 'very' gradually change into a goth.
Then eventually people will accept that me being weird is normal.
Then I can start painting my nails which won't be such a big deal.
Then I'll start wearing long skirts like some goths do, and slowly make them shorter and shorter.
After a while I'll die my long hair blonde.
Eventually I'll be able to wear girlie tops.
and ... hey presto! I'll be going to work dressed completely like a girl :D

Nah. On second thoughts that'll all take to long. Think I'll just turn up tomorrow looking like a tart and get it over with. Probably get some grief for a few days, then they'll get used to it and again no-one will comment!

It would work, but it would take two years...

Looking like a tart? Now that would just be asking for trouble ;) At least do it on halloween or something.

[Tristen Cox]

Well how often are Goths critisized for sexual perversion vs. the crossdresser? That may add to them being more accepted in society. Just my thoughts. All I know is, Tammy if you do go to work with pink nails, I want pictures :p

[Midnight_Minx]

Not as often as Crossdressers. Apparently, people already think that goth's are into all sorts of perversions, and the like. What I find strange is how it's really the MtF CD that people find perverted, -- but don't say much about FtM

I think society would be depressed and suicidal if they didn't have at least 1 thing to feel "obligated" to find perverted and wrong.

Luv

~Viv~

[Priscilla1018]

Not as often as Crossdressers. Apparently, people already think that goth's are into all sorts of perversions, and the like. What I find strange is how it's really the MtF CD that people find perverted, -- but don't say much about FtM

I think society would be depressed and suicidal if they didn't have at least 1 thing to feel "obligated" to find perverted and wrong.

Luv

~Viv~

Hi Viv,

How true,throughout history there is always a need for a scapegoat.How very sad.

Love and Hugs,
Priscilla

[Wendy me]

my thoughts are like a lot more cds in the closet than goths are so thay are out there and seen we are for the most part not as out ...........i mean it's not like people that are goth worry abought passing as a goth ..........

[Maddie Knight]

I think a lot of people see goths and accept that thats what they are.
When someone see's a tv or ts they seem to think we are trying to be someting we are not (i.e. a boy trying to be a girl). It seems harder to understand that we are simply trying to look the way we want to look, like goths look how they want to look.

However go for the tarty look at work and enjoy the attention. Only interesting people are talked about by others.

[MonaSmith]

When I came out to my manager at work, she said that she had thought that I was a goth, with the painted nails and everything. It is a convenient thing to hide behind if you are not out and your nails, hair, eyebrows are threatening to give you away.

I suppose that it is more socially acceptable at this moment in time. There is a goth guy in our office who doesn't get any comments, but I'm sure that if I turned up tomorrow dressed fully (shock factor aside) there would be a bit of a to-do. Things will change in the future if we make them.

Mona xx.

[Wendy me]

mona well said ................

[Amelie]

It's probably like Mona said about her friend. This guy probably looked goth before he worked there. Most goths start when they are young, so people know them as goths right from the start of their lives, while most of the CDs here are older and just coming out of the closet, this becomes a shock to others that know them.

Goths are not that tolerated by others. Goths and punks are always being harrased by someone. I think goths and punks have more of an attitude, telling others this is what I am so piss off. Plus, like someone said here, goths are out in the streets, while most Cds are closeted, and the ones that do go out try their best to blend in, so they are basicly invisible to the public.

Also, there are CDs who are similar to the goths and are out there. Just the same as the goths these CDs are young and don't care what people think. I have seen quite a few of these Cds in New York. I have seen them working in stores, clubs, and on the street. I guess it is easier if Cds came out while they were young.
Amelie

[Serena]

Amelie's right. Because goths start young, and they're in school and act tough, then people will generally be scared of them, and not want to mess with them, CD or not. But if somebody becomes goth after people have known them for awhile, they'll get questioned and critisized. But the problem is that it's not exactly young CD's fault that they don't expose themselves as CDs to the public. There are going to be kids at school who call them a "fag" or something, and they're afraid of that criticism, ebcause most young people don't have a not-caring attitude.

What needs to happen is younger CDs to stand up for themselves, and not care what others think. But like I said, it's not all their fault, since there are others out there who would taunt them for being who they are. So for the younger kids to accept CDs, and see them as regular humans, if they don't already, the adult CDs need to try and make it acceptable. For example, years ago homosexuals weren't generally accepted into society. But now most people just don't care if somebodie's gay, just as long as they don't hit on them. That kind of attitude needs to be given to CDs also.

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

for starters in England alternative lifestyles r more accepted than in the US, but Marilin Mansion is working on changing peoples views, hes a tg/goth from what i can tell. Goth doesnt make people nervious because they r still str8 people as wer cds confuse others as to what sex we r or want to be with. just my views.

[Serena]

for starters in England alternative lifestyles r more accepted than in the US, but Marilin Mansion is working on changing peoples views, hes a tg/goth from what i can tell. Goth doesnt make people nervious because they r still str8 people as wer cds confuse others as to what sex we r or want to be with. just my views.
Marilyn Manson is working on changing people's views, but he's not a t-girl, but I beleive he is a goth, just a gold-hearted goth. That whole album cover was just computer-animated, and it was only to try and make CDs more acceptable in the community. I know this because I know somebody who worked with him, and he was a good person, but not t-girl. That's why I admire him, because he shares the same views. not only does he try to make CDs and such more acceptable, but to make the world not prejudice. The proof is in Bowling For Columbine.

[Tristen Cox]

So in summary I should have stayed Goth all that time and I would be fine. Geez now you tell me. :( :rolleyes: :D

[~Tammy~]

Amelie, I agree with everything you said here. Some very interesting views.
I guess ultimately Goths are more accepted because they aren't exactly crossing the gender divide as CDs do. Goths do generally 'come out' younger and although may appear wierd by other people at school especially, they are basically saying 'to hell with what anyone thinks about how they look'. While CDs seem to be enclosed and actually do care what other people think and don't want to ridiculed.
This also seems to me that CDs are more caring or simply more afriad of what other people will think of us?
Goth guys don't pretent to be or want to look like girls, but simply wear what they like to stand out from the crowd.
But still, CDs are also people who simply want to be able to wear what they like and should be able to look how they want, when they want.
Like you say, I guess it's just too much of shock when you've known someone for years and then suddenly they find out you like wearing dresses.
Tamara is always saying I'm camp (acting gay) and I'm always saying I'm not.
To be honest I don't care if I am being camp. If I appear to be camp with my work collegues then maybe it wouldn't be such a shock if they suddenly found out I like dressing up like a girl!

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Sweet Tammy,

i agree with Maddy and Mona. A goth bloke flirts with femininity in a theatrical but basically masculine way, we totally embrace femininity and flaunt it in a wholly feminine way! A compromise others use is to do drag ... ie/flaunt femininity in a theatrical way.

For a man to be a woman in public he must fight not only society's prejudice but the prejudice of his own stupid male conditioning and fear that to be feminine is something to be ashamed of, embarrassing, a lesser existence or shows weakness.

The greatest battle to win is the one in our own head! There is nothing we cannot do nor wear, once we forget our arrogant masculinity and confidently express our femininity.

Handing out sweeties to London policemen at Buckingham Palace ... tests prove that four out of five bobbies will happily take a sweetie from a tgirl parading around in victorian ladies underwear even if she looks like a tulip with a pink scarf in her hair :)

She who wears wins! So wear and be dame'd! But why wear women's clothes to work unless you wish to transition? Wear them out and about in your own time and enjoy being feminine without having to justify yourself to your employer or employees.
Hugz x

[Amelie]

This is a very good point that Tiffany made. Dressing up should be for the fun times, not really for getting into an un-needed confrontation. Cd's should dress for the fun times, like going to stores, clubs, parks, etc. If we Cd for the fun, then it wouldn't be so stressful.
Very good point Tiffany.

Sorry if I burst any bubbles, but most goths don't consider Marilyn Manson a goth. Most goths don't like Manson, they think he is a poser or something. Why this is,,,I don't really know,, just is.
Amelie

[Amelie]

Tiffany, I really like that photo, is that you?

One time when I was going home from clubbing. I passed a police station in Tribeca NYC. A bunch of policemen were coming out of the station on horses.
One of the policeman said something and a few of them saluted me, and waved their hands saying hello. It must have been a thrill for them to see a drag queen walking passed them at that hour.(9 in the morning). I know they were just having a bit of fun, but then again so was I.

Sometimes we need to laugh at each other and not take life (passing) to seriously.

Amelie

[Melissa A.]

Absolutely. My workplace is not the place for me to be dressed, never will be.
Neither is the local pub I sometimes go to, and have been going to, for years. I don't wanna cd in those situations, or shove it in anyone's face.

However, I don't mind exploring a little.

I love that picture, Tiffany. I don't live in the city anymore, but if I thought I could walk around Times square handing out sweets to the cops without getting arrested or beat up by someone(s), I would be up for it!

I don't know much about Marylin Manson, but if Amelie says he's a phony, I believe her. I always thought Robert Smith was a credible Goth. Great music, too.

Wendy is right. Goths aren't trying to make anyone think they are anything but what they are. The same I guess, could be said for cds, but personally, I want people to think I am a girl. If they know I'm a cd and still accept me, great. But there is, I think, a difference.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Tiffany, I really like that photo, is that you?

Amelie

Thanks Amelie you are a darling,
yes honey that's me at Mardi Gras London 2002. Andrea who runs Stormes Club in London took the piccie from our float. I just got bored so took a handful of sweeties and started handing them out to the nearby policemen .. only later did a girl point out to me the bloomers had an open rear entry with a cute little pink bow marking the way :eek:

Hugz x

[ToniB]

Good on yer Tiffany. I wondered whether it was you when I saw it first time through the thread, but then Amelie asked the question and you answered. Do I spot an authentic lace up corset too! How did you get on with it all day, it looks pretty tight and I'm jealous. I'm attuned to these things you know!

ToniB

[Ava Mouse]

I don't know much about Goth, but I like some of the feminine Goth fashion, particularly the lacy dresses and velvet gowns. The morbid themes, graveyards, vampires, etc. are a little too melancholy, but you know what? So what.

People are soo fashion inhibited these days. I wish more people dressed to enhance their personalities and presentation. Why do we have to conform so much? I mean look at the malls and stores, the fashion is the same in all of them! You can see them all copying each other.

You know I can't find a traditional black pleated skirt anywhere these days!

I mean, while certain fashions are definitely not appropriate for the work place, why can't people have fun & dress up for dinner, movies, shows, etc? I went to an opera a few years ago, and only about 10% of the people dressed formally. So, casual day at work has become casual all the time. sigh...

I went out dressed to the 9's a few weeks ago, and yes I probably stood out like a CD overdressed downtown, but I don't care. It was fun wearing a feminine fluttery skirt and I don't care what others think.

I've seen a few men wearing kilts. Where's the creativity from the 80's? Where's the elegance of the 40's? Why do we gotta wear clothes designed by someone else's personality for my personality?

I wish more Goth people dressed up. I saw a woman with a dark black/deep red hair do a while ago. It looked nice, really classy. It was almost Chinese, with the chopsticks and all, the pattern of mixing the red with black in the back was artistic and pleasant to look at. I was dressed in conservative drab, but complimented her on it. She was shocked, I guess, to hear that from a guy like me.

Egads, dress up, be yourself...

I know, I know, easier said than done. But somebody's gotta be buying those cute dresses, because they keep making them, even though I rarely see anyone wearing them...

Oh, is the Goth fashion related to Punk fashion from the 80's? It seemed, at least to me, that they branched out of punk styles back then, as I don't recall Goth before the punk 80's... Ya know the bright colored mohawks..?

well sorry for the rant... But I do feel better now ;)

[Sharon]

I don't know much about Goth, but I like some of the feminine Goth fashion, particularly the lacy dresses and velvet gowns. The morbid themes, graveyards, vampires, etc. are a little too melancholy, but you know what? So what.

People are soo fashion inhibited these days. I wish more people dressed to enhance their personalities and presentation. Why do we have to conform so much? I mean look at the malls and stores, the fashion is the same in all of them! You can see them all copying each other.

You know I can't find a traditional black pleated skirt anywhere these days!

I mean, while certain fashions are definitely not appropriate for the work place, why can't people have fun & dress up for dinner, movies, shows, etc? I went to an opera a few years ago, and only about 10% of the people dressed formally. So, casual day at work has become casual all the time. sigh...

I went out dressed to the 9's a few weeks ago, and yes I probably stood out like a CD overdressed downtown, but I don't care. It was fun wearing a feminine fluttery skirt and I don't care what others think.

I've seen a few men wearing kilts. Where's the creativity from the 80's? Where's the elegance of the 40's? Why do we gotta wear clothes designed by someone else's personality for my personality?

I wish more Goth people dressed up. I saw a woman with a dark black/deep red hair do a while ago. It looked nice, really classy. It was almost Chinese, with the chopsticks and all, the pattern of mixing the red with black in the back was artistic and pleasant to look at. I was dressed in conservative drab, but complimented her on it. She was shocked, I guess, to hear that from a guy like me.

Egads, dress up, be yourself...

I know, I know, easier said than done. But somebody's gotta be buying those cute dresses, because they keep making them, even though I rarely see anyone wearing them...

Oh, is the Goth fashion related to Punk fashion from the 80's? It seemed, at least to me, that they branched out of punk styles back then, as I don't recall Goth before the punk 80's... Ya know the bright colored mohawks..?

well sorry for the rant... But I do feel better now ;)

Egads Ava! :) I wish I had a fraction of the style sense that you do!
But I'm working on it!

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Good on yer Tiffany. I wondered whether it was you when I saw it first time through the thread, but then Amelie asked the question and you answered. Do I spot an authentic lace up corset too! How did you get on with it all day, it looks pretty tight and I'm jealous. I'm attuned to these things you know!

ToniB

Hiya Toni,
yes hon it is a Dark Garden of SF waspie i got fitted for as a pressie at the Skin Two Rubber Ball weekend Fetish Fayre in the Barbican. Ideal for dominatrix goth girls! Rachel springs to mind .. y'know the GG at Torture Garden with the 16" waspied waist? She used to manage Cobblers to the World at Camden Lock and always dresses goth and wears her waspie!

Now, no one ever told me how erotic a pretty woman fitting you into a corset and totally reducing your waist could be .. omigosh how thrilly was that fitting from Dark Garden !!!! Fortunately i was mega tucked, but even so it was touch and go for a moment there my girl :)

Wearing it for that mardi gras was fine babe, i even walked for about three miles alongside our float down Regent Street and Oxford Street etc ,wiggling to the crowds (mega)! But ohmigosh next time i wore it out was to Club Rub .. eeek either i was out of training orit was all that sitting in the back of a car getting there .. but the bottom edges started to nip my hips and i had to loosen it a bit in the ladies!

Since then i do up the top fully but leave a little more room for my hips.

I'd appreciate any advice you could give me on wearing them as with the right outfit they look fantastic.

Hugz xxx

[ToniB]

Tiffany, I DO know just how erotic it can be. Last year, I screwed up the courage (and my bank balance) to visit Transformation Manchester for a "Changeaway". I now know there are other places you don't get so ripped off, but at the time I didn't, and I wanted the whole treatment, and had a small window of opportunity while my wife was away shopping with my daughter for 2 days. They weren't busy, and I got two good looking girls to cater for all my needs, one exotic oriental, and a beautiful young trainee who'd only been there 2 weeks. They laced me up real tight (with my encouragement for more) into one of their corsets. Like you, I was well tucked into a firm control pantie girdle, or there would have been a real bulge out front as I watched in the mirror while my waist was whittled down from my normal 33" to around 28" (yours looks more like 22"). The shaping is incredible isn't it, a real hourglass that accentuates the contrast between waist and hips, really feminine, and providing I didn't try to bend down too far, I didn't find it uncomfortable; just a strong "held in" feeling to remind me what I was wearing. Very erotic, but put your shoes on first! I didn't know before, but does the mechanics of tucking stop the blood flow to the penis and make an erection impossible; I didn't even feel hard, and that was my only disappointment, I like feeling hard! Then they made me up, tastefully, not OTT, and fitted a dark long wig. It was also a first for me to wear wig and make-up; doesn't lipstick taste nice, and doesn't long hair stick to it (and tickle your back)! There were so many new feminine sensations there, I think my senses went into overload (I posted a picture of my new female face in the pictures sticky just over a week ago). It was also the first time I'd worn real breastforms, and I got a tight clingy kneelength skirt, satin blouse, black stockings and 4" patent stilettoes to finish it off. I wouldn't have passed, but it was the most feminine I'd ever looked or felt in the whole of my life, and left me wanting more, much more. But against my wife's hostility to CD, I'm not likely to get much more. Such is life.

Since my wife is the same waist size as me, I'm planning to buy her a Vollers 1905U 28" corset in black satin off Ebay. I know I'll enjoy lacing her up into it, and the effect it will have on her figure, but I secretly hope I will also be able to wear it myself, and recreate the feelings I had at Transformation. It may be a little short in the body for a male though, have you any knowledge of these corsets?

You can see from this that I have no experience to share with you.......yet! Sorry. But I agree, they do look fantastic, whether they are worn as outerwear (by GGs or CDs), or underwear with a close fitting dress on top. They put a GGs boobs in a very provocative place too, ooooohh I'm getting wet just thinking about it! I'll have to go now.....

All the best,
ToniB

[Fallen Angel]

im not going to write a long version of any thing but as most of the members know thats how i got started wearing the gothic style of clothing it was more accepted than just going out fem for some reason like some of the other ladies have said people dont pay that much attention to the goths as would they to a cd

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Marilyn Manson is working on changing people's views, but he's not a t-girl, but I beleive he is a goth, just a gold-hearted goth. That whole album cover was just computer-animated, and it was only to try and make CDs more acceptable in the community. I know this because I know somebody who worked with him, and he was a good person, but not t-girl. That's why I admire him, because he shares the same views. not only does he try to make CDs and such more acceptable, but to make the world not prejudice. The proof is in Bowling For Columbine.

Disagree on the MM comment. He's stated he's not a goth and I guess I'll believe him. But honestly, I do think he's a T-Grrl. Seriously read his stuff, watch his videos and look at his art work. Hello!
hugs
kew

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Toni babe,
am mega impressed you got my waist size spot on! Yes i was reduced to 22" in that waspie. Only other corset i've experienced was an Axfords, but i understand Vollers have the name of being a good make.

On the Goth/ CD debate ... personally i find goth make-up makes our features look rather harsh and the sexiest goth girl clothes more suited to ample female attributes. One goth style that i find irresistably adorabubble is Elegant Gothic Lolita ... I have one such dress from Metamorphose in Japan (beautifully made) and wondered if anyone else has tried or loves this style? Here are some EGL dresses from Baby The Starts Shine Bright: http://www.babyssb.co.jp/ ( click on SHOPPING then JUMPER SKIRT or ONE PIECE to see EGL dress styles)

btw EGL bible .. means the trad, usually black and white, little girl lost/alice in wonderland look, the Japanese girls started the movement with.
Hugz x

[ToniB]

You may be "Mega impressed" with my guess, but I'm even more impressed with the 22". I can only dream, and I thought I was pretty slim at 28"! Still wonder what you will have grown to by the time you reach 60!

Let's drink to all corset wearers!
ToniB