If you could tell your SO where to…

[Wickanne GG]

…get the best information about you then wouldn’t you tell her to ask you? The forums and other sources of information are simply a guide to build a basic understanding of your CDing.

Your SO is feeling you may be drifting into a “pink fog”. The characteristics of “pink fog” include compulsive behaviour (addictive behaviour) which leads to alienating loved ones and becoming hermits?

“I wonder if anything would stop them or are they more like a runaway train? I guess the runaway train eventually has to come to a stop but it usually isn't pretty.”…A significant other.

Your SO believes you’re in need of an intervention, how does your SO bring you back to reality? How best can your SO get the lines of communication buzzing?

What have some other SOs done to bring their mate back to "reality"?

:love:
Wickanne

[Emily Ann Brown]

Interesting question.......not sure I'm the one to ask or answer since I am divorced because of my gender issue. But I'll try anyhow....

By that definition of "pink fog", being CD or TG itself (in my opinion) is the trainwreck waiting to happen. I always use "pink fog" to refer to some specific act of dressing that has gotten my 'rational mind" clouded. Example, I see a woman in a specific outfit which just appeals to me so much I forget I'm pumping gas, I'm dreaming of me in that outfit. My SO needs simply to shake me or speak loudly to jolt me out of my fog. I get the feeling though that this question is not about individual acts so much as the whole act of being a dresser or one with a gender issue.

My shrink tried to explain my issue as an addiction....then decided it wasn't, because I wanted to spend time with my family. I wanted to continue many of our lifelong activities. I loved being around OUR old friends. I didn't try to make everything about me.....the female me. I wasn't trying to dress 24/7, far from it.

So let's take the answer looked for as one of the whole act and not a specific small action. In my case our communications always quickly devolved to "you were born a man so get over it!". I tried stopping knowing failure would end in a train wreck. I could not quit thinking about dressing because it was all she wanted to talk about. I THINK we might have fared better if she had addressed this for a brief amount of time and not made it a 24/7 running nag. Even now divorced she wants to shift any conversation to "my problem" (we had a daughter die of cancer recently and have not been able to NOT have continuing contact) and it makes me want to say the 3 sentences that HAVE to be communicated and run the heck for cover. I guess I am saying better communication techniques might have helped me listen longer. I certainly knew the seriousness of my issue on our relationship. During our attempt to work through it I tried to listen to what she was saying and ask myself if I was out of control. I admit I lost interest in her company...nobody seeks constant ear pain. I am not trying to paint her as a bad person, just explain why I "didn't listen" towards the end.

Could I have stopped dressing if she had been gentler and less wordy? I have no clue. Probably not. I might have tried harder tho near the end instead of just dreaming of peace and quiet.

Told you I probably wasn't the one to answer.


Emily Ann

[Julie York]

I would encourage them to ask me as I really don't think they'd "get it" from the diverse tastes and activities on the forum. I am represented but only by picking a bit here and a bit there. But having said that......most of us don't actually KNOW exactly how we feel about it all, so it is extremely difficult to share and explain clearly even if someone is listening. It also changes from week to week.



As to being "brought back to reality". Whose reality? If someone has TS inclinations they may actually be living their 'real' lives.

I do know what you mean though. Like any obsession or addiction it is out of control when it effects your job, social life and marriage in a detrimental way......so that logic would be my starting point.

[Emily Ann Brown]

I agree with your last statement Julie. If she had a valid argument showing how my being female every 4-8 weeks was detrimental to my job or OUR social life or on my adult children I would have sit up with both ears open and tried to see if I got the same horrible trainwreck outcome she did. And if I would have I would have attempted to put sanity back into my actions. But she never did because I was managing to keep my two personalities in balance (I know sadly many can't do this, and I am not bragging but saying Em is a sensible woman and not wildly out of control or flaunting it in our community....lucky me).


Emily Ann

[Wickanne GG]

Told you I probably wasn't the one to answer.

Emily Ann

Your opinion matters Emily Ann.

Anyone who can offer a vaild opinion that helps and doesn't play the 'blame game' is is always appreciated.

I thank you both for contributing to a better understand :hugs:

:love:
Wickanne

[Toyah]

I have seen so many get on that train
I try my best to point out the things that they are doing are ruining their lives. I have seen a number of girls that join a forum get totally carried away then loose everything.
The only thing my SO complains about is Yahoo chat which I have spent some time on, Usually when she has fallen asleep downstairs. Don't even ask me to wake her, that really doesn't go down well. Toyah comes out at night then goes away again.
I think the best way to stop the pink fog is to set boundaries beyond which you are not comfortable (ie my wife would not let me go out dressed in our town). This way he knows where you are not happy and he can indulge himself sometimes.
BTW talking at them will only wind them up, talk to them, ask questions try to pwrticipate just a little, tell him where she is not working (dont say you look crap tho !!!) and dont nag :hugs:

[Wickanne GG]

Sometimes I wish I wouldn't say the things I am about to say, but it's in my nature to probe, play the "devil's adovcate" and try to understand. :straightface:

By setting boundaries is one not in, essence, trying to control someone else?

What do you do when mutually acceptable boundaries cannot be agreed upon?

:love:
Wickanne

[Toyah]

Living with someone is about give and take. Both parties must be able to accept that there are things that their partners are not willing to do or accept.
Controlling others by excessive rules and regulations is wrong but asking someone not to something because it is beyond what you are comfortable with is normal and healthy I think. There are many things that break boundaries, IE sleeping with someone else, spending money you don't have, selling something that belongs to someone else, taking something etc etc.
If you cannot come to mutually acceptable limits then I am afraid the train is out of control and is going to crash its time to move on before it hits

[Wickanne GG]

Living with someone is about give and take.


Both parties must be able to accept that there are things that their partners are not willing to do or accept.

Sounds so easy, but why is it so difficult?

:love:
Wickanne

[Emily Ann Brown]

In my case, once discovered, our initial positions were at the north and south poles. I felt like this was something I could not stop "mentally and physically" as demanded so I was only able to come to Brazil compromise wise, and she never left the south pole for a moment. I truly think it was fear of "round two" when I would try to split the distance (probably wouldn't have BTW) and she was not gonna lose control or settle for less than her "ideal".

Heard a negotiator say once that if both parties are screaming they have been screwed then the compromise was probably as fair as it would get.


Emily Ann

[tommi]

There are days when dressing is very addictive, just feeling good about myself, and sometimes that feeling is only reached by dressing.
At other times it is whensomething else is going right.

[Wickanne GG]

There are days when dressing is very addictive, just feeling good about myself, and sometimes that feeling is only reached by dressing.
At other times it is whensomething else is going right.

Are there times it is 'disruptive' to relationship with your SO or your family or your friends? If so, what is done to bring about "normalcy"?

:love:
Wickanne

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I'm not happy about cross-dressing being described as an addiction. It's no more an addiction than a left-handed person using their left hand would be in a society which forced everyone to be right-handed. If you want to try to understand TGs then try to imagine what it's like to be a child with transgender feelings. Try to imagine how frightening and isolating that can be.

[Wickanne GG]

For this thread, that's is the only way one knows how to express it.

I acknowledge what you say as valid, but what would you call it when a person, CDer or not, spends hours looking at porn on the Internet...so much so that it becomes the important aspect of his/her life...to the point where someone cannot even acknowledge they have a problem because the brain is to busy being satisfied to the stimuli in front of him/her? CDing can be just as addictive to some...it disrupts 'normal' interactions with other people.

How do you intervene?

:love:
Wickanne

Addiction: a state of physiological or psychological dependence.

[Emily Ann Brown]

Ah................


Now you have given the right amount of information. Little to do, in my opinion, with dressing and much to do with sex and erotic. Sex is a very strong urge...one of the top 3, behind eating and sleeping. I would suggest something like cut off the internet.


Emily Ann

[Wickanne GG]

LOL...no, it isn't necessarily that. Porn just seems to be an easy example to use. It's an example of an addictive/compulsive behaviour.

How does someone tell you to put the brakes on your behaviour? How have some of the SOs dealt with their mate when he/she was exhibiting disruptive behaviours?

:love:
Wickanne

[Roberta Lynn]

How do you intervene?

:love:
Wickanne

Addiction: a state of physiological or psychological dependence.

Until the "addict' recognizes that the addiction is a problem, a problem that will have a adverse affect on the addict him/herself there isn't much hope of improvement.
Of course the trick is to get the addict to recognize and admit there is a problem.

[Wickanne GG]

Until the "addict' recognizes that the addiction is a problem, a problem that will have a adverse affect on the addict him/herself there isn't much hope of improvement.
Of course the trick is to get the addict to recognize and admit there is a problem.

There are a number of SOs who would like to know how to do just that...Of course the trick is to get the addict to recognize and admit there is a problem.

:love:
Wickanne

[Roberta Lynn]

There are a number of SOs who would like to know how to do just that...Of course the trick is to get the addict to recognize and admit there is a problem.

:love:
Wickanne

A baseball bat to the back of the head usually works.

OK I'm sorry, I know this is a real serious problem in many relationships.
The only way is to talk, to try and make the SO understand your position
You need to set aside some time with no distractions and just try to communicate.
Hopefully you can find some common ground.

:love:

[GACountrygal]

A baseball bat to the back of the head usually works.

OK I'm sorry, I know this is a real serious problem in many relationships.
The only way is to talk, to try and make the SO understand your position
You need to set aside some time with no distractions and just try to communicate.
Hopefully you can find some common ground.

:love:


Ok I'll throw this out there..

What about when the CD in the relationship refuses to even try and compromise and throws everything back on the SO?

(disclaimer-this aint a problem in my relatioship, I'm just curious)

[Roberta Lynn]

Ok I'll throw this out there..

What about when the CD in the relationship refuses to even try and compromise and throws everything back on the SO?

(disclaimer-this aint a problem in my relatioship, I'm just curious)

That is so sad, If one side or the other refuses to recognize the others position, refuses to even try to understand the other person feelings there will be a wedge in the relationship that could split it apart and destroy it.
Just my opinion.

[Emily Ann Brown]

GAcountrygal GG

I believe you have one answer to your question there in your hand in your avatar.


That was a joke everyone...chill! Seriously, if dressing has gotten to the point of a porn addiction maybe you need to treat it like you would a porn addiction...SERIOUS INTERVENTION.

Here I will speak from personal experience and please understand I am not typical of all dressing SOs. I have at times asked myself if I was losing my grip. Something (I don't know) made me ask was my life out of balance and step back (or try to) and take a BIG PICTURE look at the issue at hand(fem shopping as an example). Once I saw a problem that had pourred over on my total life and relationships I made an effort to correct it. Wasn't always easy.

Understand I never did this about dressing in general because my head sings a female tune...I don't want surgery but I feel female more times than male. I knew I would NEVER be able to give it up both physically and mentally...which was what my partner demanded. "When you think of even touching a dress I want you to get sick on your stomach and puke!" Good luck, I quit physically but the mental wasn't gonna fly. I guess I mention this because I sometimes wonder if some sisters are more of a CD/TG mishmash and that issue alone still has to be dealt with before other things can fall into a happy position.

Emily Ann

[Toyah]

Living with someone is about give and take.



Both parties must be able to accept that there are things that their partners are not willing to do or accept.

Sounds so easy, but why is it so difficult?

:love:
Wickanne


Its easy!!! its because we are individuals hun

[kittypw GG]

Someone said to set boundries. Well, what happens when the boundries that are agreed upon are broken without any dialogue as to why they can't be adhered to any longer? How does a so convey their hurt when it is a valid hurt without being percieved as controlling or nit picking? Is there anything that would stop the train after it left the rails or do you just ride out the storm and hope the dammage is not to great when the train is finally stopped.
Do you think that some cd's adapt the attitude that they are already in trouble and put caution to the wind? How do you combat that strategy?
:hugs: Kitty

[Holly]

...What about when the CD in the relationship refuses to even try and compromise and throws everything back on the SO?... Then that would be just as wrong as the SO blaming the CD for every ill the relationship is suffering. I have yet to encounter a relationship where one party was entirely right and the other entirely wrong. If neither party is unwilling to listen and evaluate what the other is saying, the relationship has a much more deeply flawed than cross dressing.

[sissystephanie]

Living with someone is about give and take.

Both parties must be able to accept that there are things that their partners are not willing to do or accept.
Sounds so easy, but why is it so difficult?

:love:
Wickanne

As a CD who was married to wonderful, loving, and supportive wife for 49 1/2 years before she passed away, I feel somewhat qualified to answer those questions. The first statement about living says it all. Unless you and the SO recognise that is true, you will have problems. If you do both recognise that there HAS TO BE give and take, other problems will solve themselves. That is how our marriage lasted so long. Sure we had disagreements, any real marriage will. But we never, in that entire 49 1/2 years, went to sleep still angry!

If you always have that atitude, the second statement about willingness to accept, will not ever become a problem. You must always enter a committment, whether with a wife or an SO, that you are NOT going to change that person. Whatever he or she is when you marry, you won't change. You may try, but all you will accomplish is usually to destroy the marriage or committment. Accept what they are, or leave. It will be better for both parties.

As I said, my wife was supportive from day one. I told her before we were married. Now I have a GGF on the Internet. I told her and gave her a link to the Forum. She is very supportive and reads all my posts. She also reads a lot of others simply because she wants to understand more about me. BTW, she is married, as well as being across the pond so to speak, so our relationship is that of very close friends, and never will be anything else.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I thought these things needed to be said.

Sissy

More Girl than man sometimes

[battybattybats]

.. but what would you call it when a person, CDer or not, spends hours looking at porn on the Internet...so much so that it becomes the important aspect of his/her life...to the point where someone cannot even acknowledge they have a problem because the brain is to busy being satisfied to the stimuli in front of him/her? CDing can be just as addictive to some...it disrupts 'normal' interactions with other people.

Addiction: a state of physiological or psychological dependence.

Hmm... by that definition of addiction all those things neccessary for the continuation of life are addictions including food, water and air!

The definition of porn as an addiction is under serious contention in the medical world at present. Many state that anything without a biological aspect cannot be considered an addiction. Therefore gambling or obsessive use of porn would be more related to OCD. Also there is a strong debate as to whether or not frequent use of porn constitutes 'addiction' with many throwing around notions that any use of such or regular use constitutes addiction. The same is said about video games. Others state that many people classified as being 'addicted' to porn have simply developed an habitual behaviour as a coping mechanism for deeper underlying emotional conflicts.. which is often the case with an obsessive overuse of a pleasure related activity like overeating etc.

Alcoholics, obsessive gamblers, drug addicts.. will rather get their fix than eat and often end up in situations where they are forced to choose between the two. How many CDs spend so much on clothes that they cannot afford food?

It is all to easy to take any activity that is less common but that is deeply important to an individual and label it addiction when they will not or cannot give it up. Homosexuality has been called an addiction for the same reasons. Plenty of people have been asked by spouses to give up things important to them.. a lot of women used to be asked to give up their careers and education when married for example and that is generally accepted these days as a wrong done unto those women and when they chose their career or education over the feelings of their husbands they are often now lauded. By that reasoning asking your busy partner to try and spend more time with the family might be ok but asking them to give up something that is important to them would be very wrong.

Addiction is a medical condition, most often genetic in origin. Obsessive behaviour is psychological, and CDing only counts as such under present definition when it reaches the level of impairing normal function (not when it annoys others or when others discriminate against the CDer on account of it but when it actually makes normal activity impossible for example when someone with OCD is so busy washing their hands and checking their locks that they have extreme difficulty working or going shopping). In this case the parallels between the removal of crossdressing as a mental disease is for the same reasons as the removal of homosexuality as one.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

For this thread, that's is the only way one knows how to express it.

Which is going to make conducting a meaningful diagogue something of a challenge ;)


I acknowledge what you say as valid, but what would you call it when a person, CDer or not, spends hours looking at porn on the Internet...so much so that it becomes the important aspect of his/her life...to the point where someone cannot even acknowledge they have a problem because the brain is to busy being satisfied to the stimuli in front of him/her?

A displacement activity.


CDing can be just as addictive to some...

You're confusing addiction with needs.


it disrupts 'normal' interactions with other people.

You mean normal as in being forced to live a lie? To hide one's true self in fear of what may happen if outed? That's "normality" for a TG. I bet you wouldn't want to live that "normality" yet you seem keen that TGs suffer it.


How do you intervene?

You could start by trying to understand what transgender is.

[Sheila]

You mean normal as in being forced to live a lie? To hide one's true self in fear of what may happen if outed? That's "normality" for a TG. I bet you wouldn't want to live that "normality" yet you seem keen that TGs suffer it.


and you don't think that SO's live with the same fear and live with the same lies ...... that our partners will be outed .......... you know I can hear the neighbours now "and you continued to live with it ......... weird", I can hear the whispers and hear my son being laughed at cos Dad does this ............. and the tradefy of it is is the secrecy of it makes it weird ............. if he decided one day to dress and go wander round the neghbourhood it would be a five minute wonder ....... yes they would talk but the majority of them out of curiosity would be forced to ask questions give us a chance to inform and enlighten ............. if it comes out by accident from that moment on we are on the back foot doing damage control not a good position to be in:sad:

is it normal not to answer the door to friends and neighbours, to have to run upstairs and change ............. if living a lie is so big a deal, then why is it so difficult to be truthful.

you know pink fog is not just to do with CDING ........ my partner does the same with anything he is interested in .............. has to take it way over the top in interest and participation .......... so having tried the rational approach, having done the screaming and hollering bit, I now just shake my head walk away saying do what you feel is the right thing to do ......... does it work, ....... sometimes ................ but I still feel annoyed that I have to go that far ........... he is meant to be an adult, and a rational adult at that, sometimes Venus and Mars lives a lot in our house:D

[JOEY88]

i just do what feels right ,I'm pretty young so i feel if i merge my personality's now it shouldn't be a problem later and if people don't except me than thats OK sometimes you just have to be yourself even though some people will crucifies you for that

[Rosaliy Lynne]

Interesting question.......not sure I'm the one to ask or answer since I am divorced because of my gender issue. But I'll try anyhow....

<snip>

My shrink tried to explain my issue as an addiction....then decided it wasn't, because I wanted to spend time with my family. I wanted to continue many of our lifelong activities. I loved being around OUR old friends. I didn't try to make everything about me.....the female me. I wasn't trying to dress 24/7, far from it.

So let's take the answer looked for as one of the whole act and not a specific small action. In my case our communications always quickly devolved to "you were born a man so get over it!". I tried stopping knowing failure would end in a train wreck. I could not quit thinking about dressing because it was all she wanted to talk about. I THINK we might have fared better if she had addressed this for a brief amount of time and not made it a 24/7 running nag. Even now divorced she wants to shift any conversation to "my problem" (we had a daughter die of cancer recently and have not been able to NOT have continuing contact) and it makes me want to say the 3 sentences that HAVE to be communicated and run the heck for cover. I guess I am saying better communication techniques might have helped me listen longer. I certainly knew the seriousness of my issue on our relationship. During our attempt to work through it I tried to listen to what she was saying and ask myself if I was out of control. I admit I lost interest in her company...nobody seeks constant ear pain. I am not trying to paint her as a bad person, just explain why I "didn't listen" towards the end.

Could I have stopped dressing if she had been gentler and less wordy? I have no clue. Probably not. I might have tried harder tho near the end instead of just dreaming of peace and quiet.

Told you I probably wasn't the one to answer.


Emily Ann

I don't see why you would be the wrong one to anser. You have valid experience and opinion. Could you have stopped dressing? No more than I can and I have tried over the years. Could you have worked out a compromise? Only if SHE was willing to see beyond your dressing as a "life shattering problem" which is how I read her response to you.


Sometimes I wish I wouldn't say the things I am about to say, but it's in my nature to probe, play the "devil's adovcate" and try to understand. :straightface:

By setting boundaries is one not in, essence, trying to control someone else?

What do you do when mutually acceptable boundaries cannot be agreed upon?

:love:
Wickanne

Setting boundaries that are mutually agreed upon is not controlling others, imho. However, to say "you will do it this way'.'" is exactly that. An attempt tp control others based on your conception of what SHOULD BE. On the other hand, YOUR conception and MINE may be at variance and if compromise is not attainable then you fight a losing battle and your only remaining option may be to simply cut your losses and move on.


In my case, once discovered, our initial positions were at the north and south poles. I felt like this was something I could not stop "mentally and physically" as demanded so I was only able to come to Brazil compromise wise, and she never left the south pole for a moment. I truly think it was fear of "round two" when I would try to split the distance (probably wouldn't have BTW) and she was not gonna lose control or settle for less than her "ideal".

Heard a negotiator say once that if both parties are screaming they have been screwed then the compromise was probably as fair as it would get.


Emily Ann

No doubt fear was a major factor. A problem is she was so blinded by that fear that she could not see reason even if it were to have bitten her.


GAcountrygal GG

I believe you have one answer to your question there in your hand in your avatar.


That was a joke everyone...chill! Seriously, if dressing has gotten to the point of a porn addiction maybe you need to treat it like you would a porn addiction...SERIOUS INTERVENTION.

Here I will speak from personal experience and please understand I am not typical of all dressing SOs. I have at times asked myself if I was losing my grip. Something (I don't know) made me ask was my life out of balance and step back (or try to) and take a BIG PICTURE look at the issue at hand(fem shopping as an example). Once I saw a problem that had pourred over on my total life and relationships I made an effort to correct it. Wasn't always easy.

Understand I never did this about dressing in general because my head sings a female tune...I don't want surgery but I feel female more times than male. I knew I would NEVER be able to give it up both physically and mentally...which was what my partner demanded. "When you think of even touching a dress I want you to get sick on your stomach and puke!" Good luck, I quit physically but the mental wasn't gonna fly. I guess I mention this because I sometimes wonder if some sisters are more of a CD/TG mishmash and that issue alone still has to be dealt with before other things can fall into a happy position.

Emily Ann

I know the name of that tune. My first wife didn't know but then she wasn't mature enough for marriage as she kept running home to mother till I finally gave up and siad enough!

My second knew and liked it at first but later decided against so I compromised. If she wasn't around I would do some dressing and keep to our room. We had children but they didn't know because I kept that part out of the rest of the house.

My third (last) wife might have had a clue but she would not have tolerated and didn't want it to happen. She let me dress for Halloween one year only because I already was when she got in from work and it was Halloween after all.

But the reason for my divorces was probably mostly me. For a variety of reasons, and dressing was only one of those, I was unable to let people close enough to run the risk of losing them or suffering their censure for my behavior. I had the same problem with my last wife's children. They would only let me so close.

Still, every relationship MUST be a 2-way street in order to function and survive. Anything less is doomed.

[Lilith Moon]

I'm not happy about cross-dressing being described as an addiction. It's no more an addiction than a left-handed person using their left hand would be in a society which forced everyone to be right-handed. If you want to try to understand TGs then try to imagine what it's like to be a child with transgender feelings. Try to imagine how frightening and isolating that can be.

I was just about to type a similar comment about the term "addiction". I'm uncomfortable with it because of the negative implications that it is intrinsically harmful in the same way that addiction to certain substances can be. Crossdressing is not intrinsically harmful. Even dressing 24/7 to the exclusion of all else does not damage your health. After all, many GGs have done it 24/7 from birth with no ill effects whatsoever.

[Emily Ann Brown]

Is it just me or did this turn hostile suddenly?


Learning to handle two voices in your head is no piece of cake. I understand that it isn't easy for a SO to understand what some of us feel....it's "scifi" almost and scary and a lot of other things, none good. But at the same time if we haven't come to terms with it then how can we expect our SOs to?

For years I tried to understand myself in terms of "guy in a dress" and it caused me to go back and forth between hating myself and tolerating myself because "God made me, right?". Hardest day of my life was when I typed "I am transgendered." I didn't want that. No way. I wanted to be "NORMAL" (whatever that is). I didn't want to have surgery and walk away from 56 years of male me. But then slowly I began to realize that wasn't necessary. I just had to learn to love myself , two natures and all, and figure out how to blend those two into one enough to satisfy both most of the time and each one separately at special times.

Okay, EX wasn't gonna have any part of any blend. I understand her position. She didn't sign on for that. I was honest, and she decided to go. It was her choice. I hated it. Truth is we are both better for it. She is not living hour by hour with someone who keeps her in total rage just by existing, and I am able to peacefully live the rest of my life as male AND female.

I'll go back to what I said earlier. I think some sisters are like me...a blend...and they have neither accepted it nor found the handle on being at peace with it. Maybe a SO needs to calmly ask those hard questions (and pray they get real answers).....What's really going on in your head? Are you as scared as I am? Where do you want to be in 12 months? What do you really need from me? Do you see how our life together is falling apart?

Emily Ann

[PaulaJaneThomas]

and you don't think that SO's live with the same fear and live with the same lies ...... that our partners will be outed .......... you know I can hear the neighbours now "and you continued to live with it ......... weird",

It sounds like you live in a bad area. All my neighbours know about me and no-one gives a monkey's.


I can hear the whispers and hear my son being laughed at cos Dad does this

You're right to worry about your son being targetted.


............. and the tradefy of it is is the secrecy of it makes it weird

Being secretive sends out messages that you're doing something wrong.


is it normal not to answer the door to friends and neighbours, to have to run upstairs and change ............. if living a lie is so big a deal, then why is it so difficult to be truthful.

I'd have thought that was obvious.


you know pink fog is not just to do with CDING ........ my partner does the same with anything he is interested in .............. has to take it way over the top in interest and participation

The use of displacement activities is very common amongst TGs. Usually it's something like train spotting or model making. Keeping the mind on other things helps to avoid thinking about how crap the reality of situation is.

[kittypw GG]

I'll go back to what I said earlier. I think some sisters are like me...a blend...and they have neither accepted it nor found the handle on being at peace with it. Maybe a SO needs to calmly ask those hard questions (and pray they get real answers).....What's really going on in your head? Are you as scared as I am? Where do you want to be in 12 months? What do you really need from me? Do you see how our life together is falling apart?

Emily Ann

This really touched me Emily. This is a real answer to the problem. Maybe it is all in how you ask the question. Sometimes the struggles are so painful we loose our compassion and empathy for our spouses and I think this goes both ways. The hard part is to leave all of the emotion at the door and have an honest conversation. I think honesty and security is what most gg's really want. The security that things either will not change or that we are being constantly informed when our spouses are starting to feel differently about things. Thanks for putting these words here for me to read today. you will never know how much they helped at a critical time. :hugs: Kitty

[Wickanne GG]

OP PaulaJaneThomas…Being secretive sends out messages that you're doing something wrong.

WE HAVE A BINGO!

Cause and Effect…A CD is secretive about his CDing and once found out about by the SO it is viewed as being wrong because you yourself view it as wrong.

Sufficient causes…If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x.

I am not trying to belittle anyone’s intelligence with this post by explaining what I mean by the above statement.

Consider the CDing actitivites (x) as a cause of the relationship break-up (y). Consider the collection of events, the CDing, the secrecy/unusal behaviours (example: excessive Internet activity) (z) and the absence of a relationship counselor (z). Considered together these are unnecessary but sufficient to the relationship break down (since many other collection of events certainly could have destroyed the relationship). Within this collection; the CDing is an insufficient but non-redundant part (since the CDing by itself would not cause the failure of the relationship, but the failure of the relationship will not happen without it). So the CDing is an insufficient and non-redundant part of unnecessary but sufficient cause of the relationship break-up.

Some of you may be wondering how the above explaination applies to this thread. An SO wants/needs to know how to intervene when ‘unusual’ behaviours become all encompassing to her/his mate.

She/he may not be able to intervene but that’s not to say the CDing is the sole reason the relationship disolved but it is part of the reason. If we eliminate the secrecy from the equation, does the relationship stands a better chance of survival? I don’t know the answer to that. If we eliminate the ‘unusual’ behaviour from the equation, does the relationship stand a better chance? I would think that if an SO is seeking out options to bring about some ‘normalcy’ then it does stand a chance of survival. If we inject a relationship counselor into the equation does the relationship stand a chance? Possibly, if the secrecy and unusual behaviour can be eliminated, but not necessarily if other unknown factors are present in the realtionship.

If the SO or her/his mate just doesn't want to be in the relationship anymore then nothing is going to prevent the train from going off the tracks.

Emily Ann offered some great tips:


I'll go back to what I said earlier. I think some sisters are like me...a blend...and they have neither accepted it nor found the handle on being at peace with it. Maybe a SO needs to calmly ask those hard questions (and pray they get real answers).....What's really going on in your head? Are you as scared as I am? Where do you want to be in 12 months? What do you really need from me? Do you see how our life together is falling apart?

Emily Ann

:love:
Wickanne

[tommi]

Are there times it is 'disruptive' to relationship with your SO or your family or your friends? If so, what is done to bring about "normalcy"?

:love:
Wickanne

No I make sure of that,but normalcy is easily reached when stress levels drop
and free time is filled with other quality activities.
I agree with Emily that just accepting our selves can be alot of the battle we face, I know I've
gone to counciling and even though helpfulit still left alot more questions that only we can sort out.
No I do not want to be fulltime but I do find that dressing gives me a different feeling of satisfaction
and even a level of enjoyment that isn't easy to explain even to myself.

[BarbaraTalbot]

Is a poor self-reporter. If this was not so, one could write psychological texts by just interviewing people with various conditions, strengths or challenges and writing down what they have to say.

In my case if I had thought to ask myself about What makes a crossdresser? Am I a crossdresser? Why? and a hundred other questions, I would have no idea 6 months ago, and am not sure I have complete and valid answers for me.

Add a healthy dose of life-long shame, and flight and avoid tendencies when dealing with this issues, and you don't get very accurate answers. I can tell you what I know about me, if I know it and if I feel safe in sharing it, but I can;t tell you what I don't know that I don't know.

[KandisTX]

Being secretive sends out messages that you're doing something wrong.


I have to disagree with you on this statement. Just because one is being secretive does not mean there is something wrong being done. If you are planning to rob a bank, yes that is wrong, however, if you are planning a surprise party or vacation for your spouse secretly, that is not wrong, that is part of being someone that is thoughtful and just wants to show it in a differant way?

We, as crossdressers, are secretive because of mainly one thing. The ignorance of society toward alternative lifestyles. Crossdressing is a lifestyle, I don't care what some person with a piece of lambskin has called it, it is a lifestyle, not a disorder, not something that can be cured. Whatever the reasoning we made a decision that first time we tried on something feminine, whether it was a bra and panties, or pantyhose, stockings.. whatever it was, we made a decision to wear it. From there we each expanded on that action further and further. We have learned over time to accept ourselves, but due to society's inability to understand anything that is not what some psychologist or psychiatrist or self-proclaimed "expert" defines as "normal" we are considered to be "freaks", or outcasts, even the Gay and Lesbian communities are only recently (within the last decade or two) beginning to tolerate us within their realm. We have yet to gain total acceptance within any realm other than our own.

Kandis:love:

[Wickanne GG]

....If you are planning to rob a bank, yes that is wrong, however, if you are planning a surprise party or vacation for your spouse secretly, that is not wrong, that is part of being someone that is thoughtful and just wants to show it in a differant way?

Kandis:love:

I agree, but we are not chatting about those things.

Also, if you are planning a surprise party and acting out of the ordinary then your spouse will probably wonder what's wrong. Maybe not in your case but in most cases.

:love:
Wickanne

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I have to disagree with you on this statement. Just because one is being secretive does not mean there is something wrong being done. If you are planning to rob a bank, yes that is wrong, however, if you are planning a surprise party or vacation for your spouse secretly, that is not wrong, that is part of being someone that is thoughtful and just wants to show it in a differant way?

I think everyone (well almost everyone apparently ;)) realises that, in the context of this thread, we're talking about being secretive about a very specific thing.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

WE HAVE A BINGO!

Do I win a prize? A goldfish? A hat (I need a new hat for Royal Ascot next year)? Beer :drink:? :D


Cause and Effect…A CD is secretive about his CDing and once found out about by the SO it is viewed as being wrong because you yourself view it as wrong.

There's nothing wrong in being transgender (although it does present some unique challenges in life). What is wrong is the guilt, fear and shame that society's intolerance of diversity heaps upon TGs.


She/he may not be able to intervene but that’s not to say the CDing is the sole reason the relationship disolved but it is part of the reason. If we eliminate the secrecy from the equation, does the relationship stands a better chance of survival? I don’t know the answer to that. If we eliminate the ‘unusual’ behaviour from the equation, does the relationship stand a better chance? I would think that if an SO is seeking out options to bring about some ‘normalcy’ then it does stand a chance of survival. If we inject a relationship counselor into the equation does the relationship stand a chance? Possibly, if the secrecy and unusual behaviour can be eliminated, but not necessarily if other unknown factors are present in the realtionship.

I still get the feeling that you believe being transgender is some sort of bizzare hobby.

[Wickanne GG]

I am sure many people wish it were some sort of “bizarre hobby”…it would make this forum, basically, redundant and clear up most of the mystery.

I am not one of those people. I accept people at face value, but it doesn’t mean, when given a choice, that I have to accept who they are as part of my life. If one were to place a label on me it would be “androgynous”. “People who are androgynous have both strong masculine and strong feminine qualities. Androgynous people tend to be both action and people oriented, and are usually able to successfully take on a diverse range of roles that cross gender-role boundaries.” Unfortunately, some people always associate androgyny with hermaphrodite (she-male), which I am not. Unlike many GGs, I can understand being TG as a need, as an aspect of a person which completes that person, and not a hobby.

I posted the original question for someone else, who shall remain nameless, unless the person chooses to identify them self.

Basically, this and many other threads simply deal with that age-old problem between men and women…communication. Communication is complicated because we are individuals. The basic forms of understanding/learning are: visual learning (learn by seeing), auditory learning (learn by hearing) and kinesthetic learning or practical (learn by doing), but factored within those are individual personalities and life experiences. Individuals perceive and process information in very different ways, hence, the communication difficulties that exist between people.

Having had many dogs I found I had to employ different training techniques to teach them “tricks”. I often wonder if the four-legged occupants of this planet have similar difficulties understanding and communicating amongst themselves.

:love:
Wickanne

BTW: One needs to read the paragraphs before your last quote to understand what is meant by “unusual” behaviour. Out of context it sounds like I am implying CDing is an ‘unusual’ behaviour, which I am not.

[sobe1ove GG]

This is only my opinion. "Addiction" doesn't mean that's what crossdressing is in general. You can gamble and not be addicted. You can drink alcohol and not be addicted. (You can do cocaine and be addicted, because it's a chemical addiction.)

But all of these things CAN be addictions if you let them. Maybe not by the definition that the medical community gives, but by what others define it as.

If your crossdressing rules your life in a way that you don't do everyday things, then yeah, it's a harmful addiction. That doesn't mean you should stop crossdressing altogether. You should learn to manage it.

But if you are too busy thinking about CDing or coming to this board and forget to, say, pay the electric bill and you get shut off, then maybe you need to assess how CDing controls your life. If you can't function as a regular adult and you need other people to take care of you, then maybe you need to wake up a bit.

Now, not all of you have this problem. But some of you might.

----

What I want to know from everyone is a bit about what kittypw asked. What happens when the CDer isn't willing to compromise a bit? What if he compromises, but goes back on it? Without even saying anything?

When does the argument, 'but this is who I am, baby!' stop working? Or should a GG let him do whatever he wants (whether or not it hurts her, or makes her stop being attracted to him, or makes them get their electricity shut off) just because this TGness is a part of him?

Do GGs just not have a say?

Sobe

[Wickanne GG]

You do have a say Sobe. You have a say about what you want in your life. People can only control self...you can only control you. Aside from certain BDSM activities, medical conditions, and incarceration situations, you cannot effectively control another person. They have the same rights as you.

This is where communication becomes a major factor. One has to hear and understand what is being said...not hear what one wants to hear. In the past, I have been guilty of hearing what I wanted to hear and it caused me some grief.

Hopefully, a CDer and his/her SO can find a happy middle ground through communication, but the million dollar questions are...how do you start a dialog?...how do you listen and hear what is being said?...how do acknowledge the other person and their feelings as valid?

:love:
Wickanne

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I am not one of those people. I accept people at face value, but it doesn’t mean, when given a choice, that I have to accept who they are as part of my life. If one were to place a label on me it would be “androgynous”. “People who are androgynous have both strong masculine and strong feminine qualities. Androgynous people tend to be both action and people oriented, and are usually able to successfully take on a diverse range of roles that cross gender-role boundaries.” Unfortunately, some people always associate androgyny with hermaphrodite (she-male), which I am not. Unlike many GGs, I can understand being TG as a need, as an aspect of a person which completes that person, and not a hobby.

I'm well aware of what androgyny is. You say that you understand TGism as a need (it's actually a state of being which generates certain needs) yet you refer to a TG fulfilling her need as "the CDing" as though it's somehow unconnected with the TGs core being. So it's OK to be transgender as long as we supress our needs and pander to the prejudices of a transphobic society which is your "normacy"?


Individuals perceive and process information in very different ways, hence, the communication difficulties that exist between people.

Amply demonstrated by this thread from my perspective. Lots of bandwith but no evidence of any communication.


Having had many dogs I found I had to employ different training techniques to teach them “tricks”. I often wonder if the four-legged occupants of this planet have similar difficulties understanding and communicating amongst themselves.

They seem to get by quite well by sniffing each others bottoms.


BTW: One needs to read the paragraphs before your last quote to understand what is meant by “unusual” behaviour. Out of context it sounds like I am implying CDing is an ‘unusual’ behaviour, which I am not.

If you're not implying that CDing is unusual then why use that word?

[battybattybats]

People only disclose things that they have learned to associate being punished for or a risk of causing hurt by involving others in when they feel safe and comfortable to do so.

The transphobic society of the last several centuries ensure that most CDs learn from an early age that showing signs of femininity, being mistaken for being gay or being labeled so all lead to negative consequences.

People who have been abused as children, even mildly, often take years to tell their family and spouses. A TG person who has grown up in a transphobic society has gone through an amount of emotional and psychological abuse.

Coming out to someone may involve a lot of overcoming of shame and fear first.

What is a reasonable expectation of a CD considering that?
Is the person individualistic?
Does the person stand out as different?
Is the person rebelious?
Was their family open minded and tolerant of diversity when they grew up?
Was their town/suburb and school tolerant and encouraging of diversity while they were growing up?

An answer to no on just one of those would be enough to not be able to expect them to be capable of being out to their partner when the relationship started. Even if the answer to all those things were yes it would not be enough to ensure that the person was able to own up to this part of themselves.

Yes it is the right thing to do but until a person fels safe to be honest, until they feel secure enough to share something so deep, so wrapped in fear and stress and struggle then it is not just unrealistic to expect such honesty but downright cruel.

[Wickanne GG]

I'm well aware of what androgyny is. You say that you understand TGism as a need (it's actually a state of being which generates certain needs) yet you refer to a TG fulfilling her need as "the CDing" as though it's somehow unconnected with the TGs core being. So it's OK to be transgender as long as we supress our needs and pander to the prejudices of a transphobic society which is your "normacy"?

Re: "normalcy" see post #12


Amply demonstrated by this thread from my perspective. Lots of bandwith but no evidence of any communication.

Generally happens when people go off topic or cannot recall a previous post.


If you're not implying that CDing is unusual then why use that word?

Re: "unusal" see post #36

:love:
Wickanne

[Satrana]

how do acknowledge the other person and their feelings as valid?


What if their feelings are not valid? Valid means logical,convincing and well-founded. Take this statement

"I can't stand to see you wearing a dress. It is abnormal, men don't do this kind of thing"

I can acknowledge that is how she is feeling, however her feelings are invalid as they are based upon ignorance and prejudice. This is where communication breaks down. Emotions may be real enough but often they are based upon incorrect analysis. Should we equate reasoning with emotional displays, especially when the person is very upset and cannot think straight. Do they have equal status? No, they don't.

A CD and SO will never communicate if they cannot leave emotions aside. By all means acknowledge emotions and give each other hugs and words of love and support, but when you come to discuss the subject of crossdressing both parties have to take a reasoned and practical approach and respect each other as individuals.

People always say that talking is the key to problem solving. That is only correct when the right type of talking is used. When the wrong type of talking is adopted it will only worsen the problem.

If neither the CD or SO can approach the subject without getting emotional then the only solution would be to use a third party ie councilor to help them think and talk about these difficult subjects in a reasoned manner.

It is because crossdressing brings out such strong emotions in people that there is so much mis-communication. Deep rooted fears, prejudices and sexism prevents a worthwhile dialogue from ever beginning.

[Wickanne GG]

Neither you nor I are in a position to determine the validity of someone’s perceptions. I will acknowledge that your post is valid to you…this is how YOU feel. I may not agree with all you say, but that does not make your comments any less valid to YOU.

Using your statement as an example:
"I can't stand to see you wearing a dress. It is abnormal, men don't do this kind of thing"

Based on your definitions, let’s communicate about this.
Is it logical?
To most people the statement is logical…based on the traditional views of the male and female roles in North America.

Is it convincing?
It certainly is. Again, based on traditional views.

Is it well-founded?
Without a doubt. And again, based on traditional views.

You used the word “men” in your statement as most GGs would. Had you used the words “transgendered male”, then based on what one knows about TG, the statement would be illogical, not convincing, and not well-founded.

Therefore, your statement would indeed be valid to the average GG, based on how she would perceive the typical male role. At this point in a conversation it may be a good idea to break it to her that you do not see yourself as a “typical” male.

With your statement and your post you have demonstrated one of the difficulties surrounding communication.

:love:
Wickanne

[battybattybats]

Neither you nor I are in a position to determine the validity of someone’s perceptions. I will acknowledge that your post is valid to you…this is how YOU feel. I may not agree with all you say, but that does not make your comments any less valid to YOU.

There is a field called metaphysics it's been around a rather long time and I suggest it would be profitable for most people to read a little on it. The extension of post modernist thought out of literary criticism and art into other fields is a very dubious one. A subjective truth can only be true subjectively and therefore is invalid when applied outside of the self. There still exists a physical reality that exists outside of the self where objective reality may be measured and explored. Perceptions are always subjective and, as optical illusions so amply demonstrate, are subject to illusion and miscomprehension and therfore are invalid in any observation or opinion that involves anything beyond the self. Including relationships.

Let me demonstrate an important way that metaphysical objective reality can be shown to be true and consensual understandings of reality as truth can be shown to be false (don't worry, it's very simple):

When most people believe that the world is flat they will act as if it were flat, to them it seemed true. But the world was round, it always was round and when it was tested, it proved itself to be round. Columbus and his ships, Gallileo and his telescope, the examples are numerous. There is a real world and it can be observed, measured, quantified and proven.


Using your statement as an example:
"I can't stand to see you wearing a dress. It is abnormal, men don't do this kind of thing"

Based on your definitions, let’s communicate about this.
Is it logical?
To most people the statement is logical…based on the traditional views of the male and female roles in North America.

Most people have no idea what logic is.. they don't usually teach it in school (though thankfully that is starting to change). The statement is only logical if specific aspects are known to be true.. if they are untrue then the statement is not logical. Tradition has nothing to do with it. Once the information is available that those are false, which in this case they are, then the statement is demonstrably false and no amount of cherishing a lie, of 'feeling' that it is true will make it so.


Is it convincing?
It certainly is. Again, based on traditional views.

Tradition is in itself valueless. Applying worth to an untruth is to lie. Refusing to test something that is thought to be true but is untested is to state as known something that is suspected is true but not known to be true and is therefore a falsehood. Such things may be rhetorically convincing but are false to reason. Poor Socrates! Has our society come to value lies so greatly?


Is it well-founded?
Without a doubt. And again, based on traditional views.

No, that is untrue. If something is said to be true because it conforms with previously held views but is untested that is a false statement.


You used the word “men” in your statement as most GGs would. Had you used the words “transgendered male”, then based on what one knows about TG, the statement would be illogical, not convincing, and not well-founded.

The consensual reality argument, which is itself falsified by Columbus and Gallileo would not work there because most women would not have heard that term. Logically both versions are false, convincingly.. rhetoric can convince anyone of anything if sufficiently eloquent but both statements are unreasonable as both are not well founded as tradition is not a valid foundation for statements of objective truth.


Therefore, your statement would indeed be valid to the average GG, based on how she would perceive the typical male role. At this point in a conversation it may be a good idea to break it to her that you do not see yourself as a “typical” male.

Whether or not the statement is perceived as valid due to ignorance it remains in actuality invalid.


With your statement and your post you have demonstrated one of the difficulties surrounding communication.

We each have only a vague understanding of what is meant by any one word and our individual perceptions and volume of acquired knowledge are unique, so communication will always be vague, nebulous and indistinct and yet the more that we learn, the more that the individual meanings of words are defined the more we can come to an understanding. This is why logic, reason, critical thinking are all so very important for everyone.

Too often subjective experience has been idolised, leaving people more easilly manipulated. Too often emotion has been glorified as the centre of self instead of reason and higher thought, leaving people more easilly manipulated.

They killed Socrates for teaching people reason and for being honest. Considering the outrage so often expressed on this site by folk upset at lying, deception and cheating they may find an idol and champion in Socrates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates.

[Satrana]

Valid: (adj) well grounded in logic or truth or having legal force


Based on your definitions, let’s communicate about this.
Is it logical?
To most people the statement is logical…based on the traditional views of the male and female roles in North America. No it is not. Even people who want to keep the status quo acknowledge the current position that women can crossdress and men cannot is illogical. This is obvious to everyone. Go out and ask people what is the logic behind it, you will not get any answers.

Validity and acknowledgment are two different things, you are mixing them together. We can acknowledge everyone has their own individual perceptions but not all perceptions are valid. A person who believes the world is flat because this is what her eyes tell her does not make her perception valid.

My post was discussing your statement that emotions are valid not perceptions. I can perceive something without having any emotions about it. So I will restate my point that crossdressing causes major relationship problems because of the emotions it generates.

If you hate someone based upon the color of their skin, I can acknowledge you are a racist, I can anticipate you will make racist statements, I can anticipate your behavior when you are around people of color. None of this makes your racist perceptions or racist emotions valid. They are invalid, they are immoral, they are based on meangingless, senseless emotions. The are like a bubble, prick it and there is nothing but air inside.

Nobody would suggest that racism is valid. Nobody would suggest that we should accommodate racists. The resolution here is not for black people to bleach their skins or to temporarily paint their skins white while in the presence of white people. (and vice versa as blacks can be racist too) The solution is for white people to recognize that racism in not a valid perception or emotion.

As far as my example goes, I would agree the common perception is men do not wear dresses. However that is only valid as an initial perception based upon an irrational social taboo. Once the issue is discussed, explained, and considered then it clear that emotions or perceptions that men should not wear dresses is invalid. It is as meaningless and senseless as racism and sexism. And if a SO were to argue that men in skirts is wrong, this can only be considered valid if she believes in strict traditional gender roles in which case she would also have to apply such rules to herself and wear skirts and dresses all day every day and restrict her role to mother and housewife and would be requesting that all other women do the same.

Communication is pointless if the parties are arguing from invalid positions. Two people shouting at each other "I hate you. This is how I feel and my emotions are valid" will go nowhere.

Any statement or emotions based on men in dresses being wrong are invalid. An example of a valid position however, would be to recognize the social stigma surrounding crossdressing and request caution be exercised so that jobs, family and friends are not jeopardized.


With your statement and your post you have demonstrated one of the difficulties surrounding communication. Indeed.