caught on first day of job

[noname]

So I finnally found a job and it's my first day. Things could have gone better but for a first day they went fairly well. Well being as I have about zero guy jeans I decided I better pick some up. After shopping for hours I decided to try target before going home. Though I might find some generic relaxed fit girls jeans. So I waltz on in and I'm talking down the main isle and who I do spy? But a guy from work, but wait he spys me! I'm wearing my mens capri and messenger bag along with my sandals not bright green toenail polish. Let's say did a real bad job of being inconspicous. He keep staring, then trying to stare out of the corner of his eyes. The walk past him seemed forever. But as I got closer he stepped into the bras and was trying to spy on me though the bras. Yeah his wife was shopping for a bra, but jeez buddy, try not to be obvious. I hope this doesn't ruin the one job I've gotten in the last year and half that will save my career. I normally wouldn't be worried, but it would at least be nice to have proven how good my work is. Guess I'll find out what happens. You know what though, it's really upsetting, I shouldn't have to worry at all about this, especially being after work. This place is very off the record kind. After submitting my resume I was given a one piece sheet of paper to fill out, in addition to W-2 forms. You get the idea, they do what they want here. Would appreciate any positive spin.

[GACountrygal]

keep on truckin, and keep yer head up! You've done nothing but be yourself! :thumbsup::hugs:
Nic

[noname]

keep on truckin, and keep yer head up! You've done nothing but be yourself! :thumbsup::hugs:
Nic

Thanks GACountrygal. I also forget I had mascara on and makeupforever star powder. Dunno how visible that that stuff is 5-7 feet away. I so hope this doesn't affect work. Of course at the same time I don't work for the company 24/7 and it wouldn't be right not to be myself when I'm off work, that is asking too much.

Though I wonder, can an employer dicate off the clock. Could they could say that working on projects and meeting with clients, it is important to maintane an appearace that is acceptable to the general society?

[GACountrygal]

Thanks GACountrygal. I also forget I had mascara on and makeupforever star powder. Dunno how visible that that stuff is 5-7 feet away. I so hope this doesn't affect work. Of course at the same time I don't work for the company 24/7 and it wouldn't be right not to be myself when I'm off work, that is asking too much.

Though I wonder, can an employer dicate off the clock. Could they could say that working on projects and meeting with clients, it is important to maintane an appearace that is acceptable to the general society?

You're welcome!

I dont think they can dictate what you do outside of work as long as you're not boozing around making a fool of yourself on TV or landing in jail. As long as you are professional in demeanor and appereance at work then they should be satisfied.

I guess one thing to do, that might help, would be to tone things down for a week or two just to keep from shocking folks, and might help you feel more comfortable easing into this new situation?

[Sheri 4242]

I dont think they can dictate what you do outside of work as long as you're not boozing around making a fool of yourself on TV or landing in jail.

Much of this depends on what state you live in.

Where GACountrygalGG and I live (Georgia, obviously) sans a contract to the contrary, employers can get rid of you without much of a, if any, reason. (Georgia is one of many states where employment is "at will" -- a legal principle that is on the employer's side.) Oh, you still have EEOC protections, but that is a complex process - and crossdressiers don't have standing under these -- yet. Sometimes legal protections depend on how many employees the company has! Even though you didn't (apparently, based on what you said) sign a contract, there should be an established employment handbook that must be made available to you on request (ask Wal-Mart about withholding such from certain classes of employees!). At all businesses, there is usually a "probationary period" whereby either party (employer or employee) can say "this isn't working" and terminate the relationship. This is usually 3 months -- and someone terminated during such period doesn't even have to put the job on their resume. Some employmnt laws are basically implied -- IOW, things like they will pay you at a certain rate on a certain day -- and you acknowledge that you are part of the "face of the company" to the public. This latter point can be problematic depending on the jurisdiction, in re how far it reaches into the employee's personal life. Not trying to be a downer here, just give you a snapshot of all sides of the employee-employer relationship issue.


I guess one thing to do, that might help, would be to tone things down for a week or two just to keep from shocking folks, and might help you feel more comfortable easing into this new situation?

GACountrygalGG is absolutely right. Life has got to be a balance. When starting any new job, regardless of whether you are a crossdresser or not, this is a time to put your best foot forward!!! This is a time to affirm to your employer that they have made a good decision in hiring you -- that you are going to be productive and represent them in an excellent manner. The latter part of that last sentence can cause headaches, b/c just how far into your personal life should that reasonably extend?!!? Yes, you have rights -- but put the shoe on the other foot: so does the company!!! When starting a new job, IMHO, that is the time to do your best work and be on your best behavior. One of my daughters has yet to learn that NOBODY is indespensable!!! She keeps thinking she is -- and keeps bouncing from job to job based on "attitude priblems" alone. So, swallow your civil liberties and rights, and show them you are valuable and a team player -- then, when the newness wears off, go back to the life you want to live!!!

[noname]

Yeah, just doubted I run into anyone at target at 9:30 at night.

I hate to lie, but whats a good excuse should it come up? I need something believeable.

Thing is, I have no idea if this guy is some idiot blabber mouth. Though I'd bet so, trying to spy on me, geez, what a loser.

Of course I could confront him, "hey I saw you at target last night" "uhhh yeah" "say, what were you doing in the bra section?"

[DanaJ]

If you knew it was a guy from work, and you didn't want to be spotted, why did you walk past him? You should have walked a different way.

Anyway, if you are not concerned about bending the truth, just deny it - put a look of bewilderment on your face and say "Target? Last night? Wasn't me dude." :)

Edit: I do not think you should hide or be ashamed or embarrassed at who you are, and I do not advocate trying to hide - I only asked because the thread starter sounded like he was worried about the encounter.

[Rosaliy Lynne]

keep on truckin, and keep yer head up! You've done nothing but be yourself! :thumbsup::hugs:
Nic

Right on and normally true too. But not always as others have mentioned.


Yeah, just doubted I run into anyone at target at 9:30 at night.

I hate to lie, but whats a good excuse should it come up? I need something believeable.

Thing is, I have no idea if this guy is some idiot blabber mouth. Though I'd bet so, trying to spy on me, geez, what a loser.

Of course I could confront him, "hey I saw you at target last night" "uhhh yeah" "say, what were you doing in the bra section?"

Need something believeable? Try the truth. Your fellow employee was behaving a lot worse by obviously spying on you. So you cross dress and wear makeup on your own time. Big deal. (not).


If you knew it was a guy from work, and you didn't want to be spotted, why did you walk past him? You should have walked a different way.

Anyway, if you are not concerned about bending the truth, just deny it - put a look of bewilderment on your face and say "Targer? Last night? Wasn't me dude." :)

I can understand walking past him. Any other behavior would have been the same as yelling out loud and clear - I AM DOING SOMETHING WRONG!! That would have just put fuel on the fire. You dampen the affect by behaving as if everything is right on normal - which it is as it was.

[Rosaliy Lynne]

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -George Washington

think a lot alike which is one reason I joined NRA as a life member after I settled my late father's estate.

[Karren H]

If you see him at work today say loudly.... "Was that you at Target looking at Bra's last night?". :D

That should headoff any further conversation about your life style... Get everyone talking about his bra fetish!!!

Karren

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

It all depends on what kind of job it is you are doing and does the company have a policy about putting forth a positive appearance while on your own time. If you were not doing anything wrong, and crossdressing is not anything wrong then you should have no worries. I would not confront the guy unless you start hearing rumors that he is talking about you behind your back to co-workers. If he does you should confront him with it and let him no that you will not tolerate any malicious rumors and will bring his actions up to your supervisors. If you are open and honest with your boss about this and he fires you I would guess that you would have a legal action against them, in any state there are laws that protect your rights even if you are not aware of them the threat of legal action will in most cases allow you to keep youir job without harrassment. Of course you would have to be willing to proceed with the action if they forced your hand and I don't know your personal situation regarding how open you are with the crossdressing. Good luck!

[noname]

Crossdress? I was wearing all guy clothes. Of course I don't consider painted toes and mascara crossdressing. Others may perhaps.

Also there is no way he could have seen the mascara from the initial distance he spotted me. I'm pretty sure it was the neon green toes.

As far as policy, this place has few office workers and more than a few worker bees. So there is no dress code at work, just keep yourself looking decent.

It could be ok as one guy there goes by a female name and wears two rainbow braclets. I'm not certain but odds are he's gay.

I think I was over panicing a bit. Perhaps I'll have to pull back a bit. At least around town. This business is small, but the job has tremendous opportunity for future job as I'll meet tons of people. I can't say for certain, but I can see a business wanting their employees to appear "normal".

Also, there is "firing" here. There would just conviently be no contracts for me work on.

[DianaGomez]

Was that you at Target looking at Bra's last night
LOL! Sounds good! Attack is the best form of defense!

[Jamie001]

The company that you work for has no right to control what you do on your own time. It is none of their business. What about guys that wear earrings? It is the same thing.


Crossdress? I was wearing all guy clothes. Of course I don't consider painted toes and mascara crossdressing. Others may perhaps.

Also there is no way he could have seen the mascara from the initial distance he spotted me. I'm pretty sure it was the neon green toes.

As far as policy, this place has few office workers and more than a few worker bees. So there is no dress code at work, just keep yourself looking decent.

It could be ok as one guy there goes by a female name and wears two rainbow braclets. I'm not certain but odds are he's gay.

I think I was over panicing a bit. Perhaps I'll have to pull back a bit. At least around town. This business is small, but the job has tremendous opportunity for future job as I'll meet tons of people. I can't say for certain, but I can see a business wanting their employees to appear "normal".

Also, there is "firing" here. There would just conviently be no contracts for me work on.

[angelfire]

The company that you work for has no right to control what you do on your own time. It is none of their business. What about guys that wear earrings? It is the same thing.

This is not true. I have gone into interviews where they said upfront, no piercings, if you have them, remove them. This was shortly after I removed my eyebrow ring because it was growing out, but still, the guy obviously said "We need to look professional, so its good you have no facial piercings." So if they can say anything based on facial piercings, I don't see how earrings are any different.

A lot of employers just won't hire you if you have visible tattoos either.

As for being fired over it, if he chooses not to tell anyone, you'll be fine. If he does, unless he goes and tells your boss, and the boss has a problem with it, you should be fine. BUT, employers do typically have a 3 month probation period where they can fire you for no reason.

[KandisTX]

They would more than likely request that you not have any visible tattoos or body piercings during business hours. Many employers could care less about what you do after hours, however I have heard of some that are so adimant about only hiring non-smokers that if you are caught smoking after hours away from the business they terminate employment.

Many states (Texas is) are "Right To Work" states. That means that employment is "At Will" (Yours or the companies). You can leave whenever for whatever reason, and they can fire you whenever and for whatever reason. A job is not a guarantee, unless you are working in a union industry that is, especially in places like Texas.

Kandis:love:

[Jamie001]

Angelfire,

I think that you may have misinterpreted what I was saying:

When you are on "company time" they can dictate appearance standards. I completely agree with that as being a "fact". On the other hand, when you are not on "company time" they do not have any control over your personal appearance provided that you are not arrested for public nudity or something that is illegal. That is the point that I was trying to make.

:2c: Jamie



This is not true. I have gone into interviews where they said upfront, no piercings, if you have them, remove them. This was shortly after I removed my eyebrow ring because it was growing out, but still, the guy obviously said "We need to look professional, so its good you have no facial piercings." So if they can say anything based on facial piercings, I don't see how earrings are any different.

A lot of employers just won't hire you if you have visible tattoos either.

As for being fired over it, if he chooses not to tell anyone, you'll be fine. If he does, unless he goes and tells your boss, and the boss has a problem with it, you should be fine. BUT, employers do typically have a 3 month probation period where they can fire you for no reason.

[Jamie001]

How could the boss have a problem with it? He was not on company time. He was at the local target store and not working for his employer at that time. All that matters is his appearance at work. His appearance off company time is his own business.

As for being fired over it, if he chooses not to tell anyone, you'll be fine. If he does, unless he goes and tells your boss, and the boss has a problem with it, you should be fine. BUT, employers do typically have a 3 month probation period where they can fire you for no reason

[Sheri 4242]

The company that you work for has no right to control what you do on your own time. It is none of their business. What about guys that wear earrings? It is the same thing.

This is not true. I have gone into interviews where they said upfront, no piercings, if you have them, remove them. This was shortly after I removed my eyebrow ring because it was growing out, but still, the guy obviously said "We need to look professional, so its good you have no facial piercings." So if they can say anything based on facial piercings, I don't see how earrings are any different.

A lot of employers just won't hire you if you have visible tattoos either.

The corporate world does have some rights. Part of their rights can affect your off-clock activities, depending on where you live and the particulars of the situation . . . so much so that the case law is absolutely "lop-sided." This has been upheld time-and-again. Accepting a position is a voluntary thing -- and most state legislatures, top-heavy with lawyers with ties to big business -- have ensured this.


As for being fired over it, if he chooses not to tell anyone, you'll be fine. If he does, unless he goes and tells your boss, and the boss has a problem with it, you should be fine. BUT, employers do typically have a 3 month probation period where they can fire you for no reason.

If you'll look back at my earlier post, and more particularly at the "probationary period" of employment, I will say once again, this is a time for prudence and common sense -- especially if you like the job and think you might want to keep it. Maybe take the nail polish off for the short-run -- then, if the topic gets brought up, you were in male clothing and have no idea what he's talking about, in re the nail polish. Your line is, "Gee, I want to rep this company professionally; I want to be considered an asset!!!" Unless you are determined to make a statement, show them you are interested in what they are interested in -- a well-represented company to which you want to be a productive part of!!!


If you are open and honest with your boss about this and he fires you I would guess that you would have a legal action against them, in any state there are laws that protect your rights even if you are not aware of them the threat of legal action will in most cases allow you to keep youir job without harrassment. Of course you would have to be willing to proceed with the action if they forced your hand . . .

With all due respect, your "guess" is wrong. Crossdressing isn't a protected class under EEOC rules. AND, most state laws are "at will," which is on the side of the employer. And, even given a liberal interpretation of a "probationary period" clause or rule, trust me, if they want you gone, that's what is going to happen and crossdressing will never even be mentioned!

[dakota_ann69]

Well here is my :2c: , I think that you will be fine. I really think based on his behavior it sounds to me like he may have been embarrased to have you see him in the bra section. Like Karren said if anything happens ask him about his bra fetish. I doubt very much that anything will be said at all.

[Jamie001]

I completely disagree with this approach and believe that this is bad advice!! :Angry3:

There is no need to take the nail polish off as long as it is not visible when you are at work. For God's sake, don't give the company that you work-for the power to control your appearance when you are not at work. Unless the company that you work for owns the Target store were you were shopping, they have not power over your personal appearance when you are not on the clock at work. Don't lie about the nail polish and say "you have no idea what he is talking about". It is none of their business and doesn't affect your performance on the job. Lying can be construed to affect your performance on the job and could be grounds for dismissal if the company thinks that you are not honest. Look what happened with President Clinton and Monica! He should not have lied and you should not lie either!! After all, you didn't do anything wrong. You are making a mountain out of a mole hole...

It doesn't even matter if you are cross-dressed when you are not at work. Remember that the company that you work for does not control your personal life!!

We need to be proud of ourselves and that includes what we wear and the way that we dress. We should not ever give anyone power over our appearance when we are not at work. On the other side of the coin, when you are at work always strictly adhere to their dress code. The company that you work for is paying for your time and you must comply with their rules.

But PLEASE don't ever let the company that you work for have power over your appearance when you are not at work!! That is going too far. We don't have to hide in the closet especially in a world where US senators solicit prostitutes, wear diapers, and presidential candidates are admitted crossdressers. Don't cower in the closet on your personal time. When you are not at work, your personal life is your business and not anyone else's. Wear what you want to wear on your personal time and enjoy. :2c:




The corporate world does have some rights. Part of their rights can affect your off-clock activities, depending on where you live and the particulars of the situation . . . so much so that the case law is absolutely "lop-sided." This has been upheld time-and-again. Accepting a position is a voluntary thing -- and most state legislatures, top-heavy with lawyers with ties to big business -- have ensured this.



If you'll look back at my earlier post, and more particularly at the "probationary period" of employment, I will say once again, this is a time for prudence and common sense -- especially if you like the job and think you might want to keep it. Maybe take the nail polish off for the short-run -- then, if the topic gets brought up, you were in male clothing and have no idea what he's talking about, in re the nail polish. Your line is, "Gee, I want to rep this company professionally; I want to be considered an asset!!!" Unless you are determined to make a statement, show them you are interested in what they are interested in -- a well-represented company to which you want to be a productive part of!!!



With all due respect, your "guess" is wrong. Crossdressing isn't a protected class under EEOC rules. AND, most state laws are "at will," which is on the side of the employer. And, even given a liberal interpretation of a "probationary period" clause or rule, trust me, if they want you gone, that's what is going to happen and crossdressing will never even be mentioned!

[noname]

Been working the guy all day. He's acted normally. Things will probably be fine. We'll see how things go. As far as 90 day probation, it's contract work. I'll be out of owrk when the contract is up, unless they have another contract for me work ok.

[SatinDoll00]

You're welcome!

I dont think they can dictate what you do outside of work as long as you're not boozing around making a fool of yourself

Oh crap...

Morgan

[sterling12]

Your latest reply may indicate that you simply weren't recognized. I mean you were only at the company for one day, you probably look a bit different with some makeup on, and he may have just been curious about what he was seeing.

My guess is that he probably "clocked" you. But, he hasn't put your face and the word employee together. Or, since he's not "positive," he's not going to make any waves. Doesn't mean that bad things can't happen, but it appears that things just might blow over.

Don't do anything "overt," which might remind him of the incident, and then further remind him that your face and That CD's Face he saw, might just match up. I would spend a lot of time around there acting "really butch."

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Jamie001]

:rant: Again, I have to respectfully disagree with this advice. Remember that she hasn't done anything wrong! That is the point that you are completely missing. She was not at work and therefore was on her own time. This means that she doesn't have to conform to the company's dress code standards when not at work. Why doesn't everyone understand this?

There is no reason to "act butch" if you are not really butch to begin with. Just be yourself and abide by the dress code when you are at work. When you are not at work, you can wear whatever you want to wear. It is that simple.

The advice that a lot of folks are giving is just wrong. :(

I believe that one GG replied to this thread with the correct advice that the company doesn't have any control over your appearance when you are not on company time. That is all that there is to it. Don't let the company that you work for dictate your appearance when you are not at work.



Your latest reply may indicate that you simply weren't recognized. I mean you were only at the company for one day, you probably look a bit different with some makeup on, and he may have just been curious about what he was seeing.

My guess is that he probably "clocked" you. But, he hasn't put your face and the word employee together. Or, since he's not "positive," he's not going to make any waves. Doesn't mean that bad things can't happen, but it appears that things just might blow over.

Don't do anything "overt," which might remind him of the incident, and then further remind him that your face and That CD's Face he saw, might just match up. I would spend a lot of time around there acting "really butch."

Peace and Love, Joanie

[AllieSF]

Jamie,

Your point is very clear and correct. However, the world of employers don't always play by the same rules. If someone acts outside the norms of a very conservative and employee controlling company whether at work or on their private time, it is very possible that this person may suffer negative consequences for their actions. Is that fair? Hell no! But the burden of proof in a case like this rests with the poor employee and his/her's limited legal funds to pursue a just resolution from the deep pocketed company. Yes, there are many cases that have been settled in favor of the employee. But, I would bet that that is only the tip of the iceberg in comparison of all the wronged emplyees out there. I interpret the advice given as, "Hey, we live in the real world where ideals are not always reached and things may not be that fair. So, just take it easy for a while, cool your jets and do your job as best that you can. Later when the person is better entrenched in or with the company and has established value to the company he/she can loosen up and get back to the life they want to live." As stated here before, if a company wants to get rid of someone or not renew a work contract (potentionally in this case) they will find a way to do that. I am for fair treatment to all, but to flaunt an attitude in front of the establishment that writes the pay check can be risky. Unfortunately we still live in this crazy world where most of us depend on others for our income.

Regarding this specific case, as I understand the scenario, the new contract employee has been seen by someone from work and it appears that this person may have seen painted toenails and maybe some other femme that may lead them to believe that the new employee may be doifferent (i.e. CD/TG, other). I don't think that this situation is job threatening as long as the seer does not make a case out of it and the company is not too conservative in what they expect from those that they employ. It may be no more than the surprise of meeting a new employee and then noticing something about him outside of work. That's my :2c: :love:

[Lana_CD]

So far, the right girl hasn't seen your post. There is a girl, on this forum, who was fired from Winn Dixie, in New Orleans, for dressing after hours, on her own time.

[DonnaT]

I believe that one GG replied to this thread with the correct advice that the company doesn't have any control over your appearance when you are not on company time. That is all that there is to it. Don't let the company that you work for dictate your appearance when you are not at work.

Well, read Sheri's posts again.

People get fired all the time for how they are dressed after work hours. Just ask Donna O. (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=932215&highlight=Winn#post932215)

That is one reason some in the government are in favor of the ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) (http://www.pflag.org/ENDA.enda.0.html) bill.

There are a number of states and localities that already protect against discrimination, but there are more states and localities that do not. Thus the need for federal protection (ENDA).


As for Noname, the clothes were guy cloths, the accessories were apparently not. Thus there is deniability.

The guy that spotted her hasn't brought it up, and probably won't. He may have been quite curious. He may even be a secret CD and eyeing her enviously.

So, unless this guy raises the issue, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

[Jamie001]

There is no issue for the guy to raise. What is he going to say? Is he going to say that the guy had painted toenails? So what! is that a crime? It is the same thing as having tattoos on his arms that are covered while at work but he wears a tank top to show-off the tattoos when not at work. There is no law against having painted toes, and if there was, most women would have to be arrested or at least given a citation.

My point which should be taken very seriously is that we need to stand-up for our rights and not hide in the closet when we are not at work. If I was confronted at work about this non-issue I would say "so how is this relevant to doing my job?" and that would be the end of it. You have to remember that she wasn't doing anything illegal. Even folks that are caught doing illegal drugs aren't dismissed and they actually committed a crime.

We need to stand-up for our rights like big girls and not let the company that we work for dictate our appearance when we are not at work. He should be proud of his painted toenails. I am not suggesting that he display them at work, but if asked by anyone he should just say that he likes having painted toes. It is the same as if they wanted to know what color of underwear he is wearing. It is none of their business. As long as it is not illegal it doesn't affect the company that he works for.

If you give the company that you work for power over your appearance in your personal life, then you are part of the problem rather than being part of the solution. No one really gives a crap what color your toenails are or if you are wearing mascara when not at work. If your employer is worried about that, the company has much bigger problems and you don't want to work there anyway. The original poster was not even crossdressing as he was wearing male clothing. What he was doing is no different that a male wearing earrings while on personal (not company time). The company has no say about this and according to our VP of Human Resources it would be illegal for the company to even have this type of discussion with the employee.

:2c: Jamie


Well, read Sheri's posts again.

People get fired all the time for how they are dressed after work hours. Just ask Donna O. (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=932215&highlight=Winn#post932215)

That is one reason some in the government are in favor of the ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) (http://www.pflag.org/ENDA.enda.0.html) bill.

There are a number of states and localities that already protect against discrimination, but there are more states and localities that do not. Thus the need for federal protection (ENDA).


As for Noname, the clothes were guy cloths, the accessories were apparently not. Thus there is deniability.

The guy that spotted her hasn't brought it up, and probably won't. He may have been quite curious. He may even be a secret CD and eyeing her enviously.

So, unless this guy raises the issue, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

[Val702]

I almost never run into people from work unless I arrange to. But I am gonna start going out every so often fully decked out. Am I gonna get recaognised by the wrong person?

[Jamie001]

Don't worry about getting recognized because you are on your own time.


I almost never run into people from work unless I arrange to. But I am gonna start going out every so often fully decked out. Am I gonna get recaognised by the wrong person?

[Sinthia]

You did not mention if you are married, or have a SO around. If you do, just mention that you were getting something 'For the little lady.'

[Jamie001]

Why is it necessary to lie? There was no crime committed and there was nothing that was done wrong. He was not doing anything wrong.


You did not mention if you are married, or have a SO around. If you do, just mention that you were getting something 'For the little lady.'

[Satinpeta]

I am in a job that has night shift and I am able to fully dress all night and be the girl I want so all I can suggest is to keep looking for the right job! I know this doesn't help you at present but It did take me about three years of trying, now I love it!

[Sheri 4242]

Your latest reply may indicate that you simply weren't recognized. -- My guess is that he probably "clocked" you. But, he hasn't put your face and the word employee together. Or, since he's not "positive," he's not going to make any waves. Doesn't mean that bad things can't happen, but it appears that things just might blow over. -- Don't do anything "overt," which might remind him of the incident, and then further remind him that your face and That CD's Face he saw, might just match up.

Sound advice based on common sense and logic!!! You probably weren't recognized -- and even if you were, he probably doesn't know for sure what he really saw. Joanie is giving absolutely solid advice in suggesting you not do anything overt at this point in time. Your own observations are a good indicator:

Been working the guy all day. He's acted normally. Things will probably be fine.

PLUS, you have added a new detail that makes me believe that all will be fine:


As far as 90 day probation, it's contract work. I'll be out of owrk when the contract is up, unless they have another contract for me work ok.

So, that issue is pretty much settled -- and unless somebody convinces you to stir the pot, as long as your work is good and you represent the company professionally, there is no reason not to believe that you wouldn't be eligible -- and the first consideration -- for employment under a new contract!


I completely disagree . . . and believe that this is bad advice!! :Angry3:

For God's sake, don't give the company that you work-for the power to control your appearance when you are not at work. Unless the company that you work for owns the Target store were you were shopping, they have not power over your personal appearance when you are not on the clock at work. Don't lie about the nail polish and say "you have no idea what he is talking about". -- It is none of their business and doesn't affect your performance on the job. Lying can be construed to affect your performance on the job and could be grounds for dismissal if the company thinks that you are not honest. Look what happened with President Clinton and Monica! He should not have lied and you should not lie either!! After all, you didn't do anything wrong. You are making a mountain out of a mole hole...

From a legal standpoint , the Bill and Monica analogy is one of the most specious things I've heard lately. With all due respect, you seem more interested in our sister making a point, regardless of the consequences to her, than her acting maturely, getting on sound footing, then going about her business as she wishes. I'm not trying to be argumentative -- but I know employment law, and the advice I gave was based in no small part on that basis for the best interest of our sister. Whether she chooses to follw my advice, yours, somebody elses, a combination, or nobody's, will ultimately be her choice. That said, my advice was legally sound. She has NO protecions under the EEOC or any state statutute I am familiar with -- if her state is an "at will" state, she can be toast without any reason being necessary. In fact, being a contract employee makes her position even more precarious. No, the company doesn't control one's personal life -- but only to a degree!!! They can hold your personal life as a reflection on them and you can be ruined before any legal protections (if any exist for your particular situation) can correct the situation.

I'm proud of who I am and what I am -- even show my face on here from a small, southern Bible-belt town -- but your advice to her has nothing to do with our sister's best interest in this particular situation!!! Like it or not, many Americans are faced with the pospect of what they say or do (and attire has been held to be a non-verbal form of speech) off the job seriously affecting their employment.

Get mad at me and insult me all you want, but the facts are that the corporate world, itself, does have some rights. Part of their rights can affect your off-clock activities, depending on where you live and the particulars of the situation . . . so much so that, as I noted yesterday, the case law is absolutely "lop-sided" and has been upheld time-and-time again. Accepting a position is a voluntary thing -- and most state legislatures, top-heavy with lawyers with ties to big business -- have ensured this.

There is a time to "stand up and be counted" and there is a time for prudence and common sense -- especially when it comes to paying your bills and putting food on the table. The better part of valor is, as I EXACTLY said, "maybe take the nail polish off for the short-run -- then, if the topic gets brought up, you were in male clothing and have no idea what he's talking about, in re the nail polish. Your line is, "Gee, I want to rep this company professionally; I want to be considered an asset!!!" And, I stand by my statement that unless our sister wants, or is determined, to make a statement, her priority should be to show them she is interested in what they are interested in -- a well-represented company to which she wants to be a productive part of!!!

EDIT: ADDITION


People get fired all the time for how they are dressed after work hours. Just ask Donna O. (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=932215&highlight=Winn#post932215)

That is one reason some in the government are in favor of the ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) (http://www.pflag.org/ENDA.enda.0.html) bill.

There are a number of states and localities that already protect against discrimination, but there are more states and localities that do not. Thus the need for federal protection (ENDA).

As for Noname, the clothes were guy cloths, the accessories were apparently not. Thus there is deniability.

The guy that spotted her hasn't brought it up, and probably won't. He may have been quite curious. He may even be a secret CD and eyeing her enviously.

So, unless this guy raises the issue, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

GREAT post, Donna!!! Subtending your post are some important considerations that seem to be escaping a few. At this time, the most significant employment law that is applicable in the U.S. is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This mainly covers discrimination and harassment of protected classes. At the federl level -- and federal trumps state and local -- gender issues that have come to civil litigation have not been considered as protected under the law. To date, EVERY federal court that has considered such gender issues have determined that such is not cognizable under Title VII.

In a few issues at law the relatively obscure "BFOQ exception" has been played. "BFOQ" stands for "bona fide occupational qualification," and is a way around Title VII and the Age Discrimination in Employment Act to the exclusion of employees based on sex, religion, national origin, or age. To be utilized, the employer must make a showing that a particular trait or quality can be objectively shown to affect the job or that such would undermind the business.

Some gender-related cases have found protection in confidentiality laws that restrict an employer's ability to disseminate information about an employee based on protections of the National Labor Relations Act. That said, I can't help but remember the case where an employer at a brewery was seen by his supervisor at a tavern drinking brew from the competition. The next day he was fired . . . and he promptly sued the brewery. Sounds like a slam-dunk for the employee, doesn't it?!! He lost!!! (a.) His state had no statute protecting employees for off-duty conduct, AND (b.) he wasn't covered by any collective-bargaining agreement that restricted his employer and their ability to terminate employees (a collective-bargaining agreement would have saved him).

Just wanted to add this touch of the law as it is applicable in the U.S. b/c what you and I can obviously see, there are some out there that just don't get it.

[jjjjohanne]

So, now you don't have to worry about the guy jeans thing!

[Jamie001]

Sheri,

It is important for us to make a point. If we don't stand-up and be counted, then the situation will never change. If a sister is terminated for such a trivial personal issue, they could make a very significant issue of it in the media. Maybe the local newspaper or TV station would like to present the story. Do you understand what I am saying? I am sure that the company doesn't want the negative PR.

There was a time in this country when African Americans didn't have any protection, but they stood-up and fought for their rights. Yes sometimes there will be casualties, but it is important to remember that if you don't fight for your rights, then you are defeated and are part of the problem rather than the solution.

:2c: Jamie

[immike]

So I finnally found a job and it's my first day. Things could have gone better but for a first day they went fairly well. Well being as I have about zero guy jeans I decided I better pick some up. After shopping for hours I decided to try target before going home. Though I might find some generic relaxed fit girls jeans. So I waltz on in and I'm talking down the main isle and who I do spy? But a guy from work, but wait he spys me! I'm wearing my mens capri and messenger bag along with my sandals not bright green toenail polish. Let's say did a real bad job of being inconspicous. He keep staring, then trying to stare out of the corner of his eyes. The walk past him seemed forever. But as I got closer he stepped into the bras and was trying to spy on me though the bras. Yeah his wife was shopping for a bra, but jeez buddy, try not to be obvious. I hope this doesn't ruin the one job I've gotten in the last year and half that will save my career. I normally wouldn't be worried, but it would at least be nice to have proven how good my work is. Guess I'll find out what happens. You know what though, it's really upsetting, I shouldn't have to worry at all about this, especially being after work. This place is very off the record kind. After submitting my resume I was given a one piece sheet of paper to fill out, in addition to W-2 forms. You get the idea, they do what they want here. Would appreciate any positive spin.
Your on your own time,doing no one any harm,just walk away&keep
smiling?

[MsJanessa]

Maybe your co-worker was a CD too---did you actually see his wife?

[Jamie001]

Immike is correct. That is all that there is to it. There is nothing to deny or lie about because he did nothing wrong or illegal.

Don't give companies the power to stuff you into the closet when you are not on company time.


Your on your own time,doing no one any harm,just walk away&keep
smiling?

[PortiaHoney]

He's just jealous.

Hope it all pans out for you. Good luck.

[Toyah]

Sheri,


There was a time in this country when African Americans didn't have any protection, but they stood-up and fought for their rights. Yes sometimes there will be casualties, but it is important to remember that if you don't fight for your rights, then you are defeated and are part of the problem rather than the solution.

:2c: Jamie

I am sorry but you must have lost the plot if you think that dressing has the same importance as racialism

[Sheri 4242]

Jamie,

This is just MHO, but this forum is about different things at different times. Sometimes it is a place to encourage activism. Sometimes it is a place for specific, pragmatic advice. Sometimes it is a place for a shoulder to cry on, and sometimes it is a place to have a laugh.

Read nonname's post again. Was she asking for legal advice (as obviously we have several lawyers on here), or was she seeking a way to make an activist statement? In part, noname said:

So I finnally found a job and it's my first day. Things could have gone better but for a first day they went fairly well. Well being as I have about zero guy jeans I decided I better pick some up. After shopping for hours I decided to try target before going home. Though I might find some generic relaxed fit girls jeans. So I waltz on in and I'm talking down the main isle and who I do spy? But a guy from work, but wait he spys me! I'm wearing my mens capri and messenger bag along with my sandals not bright green toenail polish. Let's say did a real bad job of being inconspicous. He keep staring, then trying to stare out of the corner of his eyes. The walk past him seemed forever. But as I got closer he stepped into the bras and was trying to spy on me though the bras. Yeah his wife was shopping for a bra, but jeez buddy, try not to be obvious. I hope this doesn't ruin the one job I've gotten in the last year and half that will save my career. I normally wouldn't be worried, but it would at least be nice to have proven how good my work is. Guess I'll find out what happens. You know what though, it's really upsetting, I shouldn't have to worry at all about this, especially being after work. This place is very off the record kind. After submitting my resume I was given a one piece sheet of paper to fill out, in addition to W-2 forms. You get the idea, they do what they want here. Would appreciate any positive spin. {Emphasis Added}

Now, my take is that, (A.) noname wouldn't mind being somewhat activist minded b/c (a.) she doesn't mind going out in public with a femme aspect showing ("Normally wouldn't be worried . . ."); but (B.) her main concern is her standing with this job and what could and couldn't happen ((( 1 - first job she's gotten in year and a half, 2 - it would be nice to be able to prove herself, and 3 - she'd appreciate positive spin. )))

Please don't take offense at this, but this is how I take what you and I were doing: I was trying to give her some supportive, sound legal advice (which IS based in law), and you are telling her be an activist, make a stand (a stand that could cost her her career -- and cost her the ability to make money), and you were doing so with some advice that has no basis at law. Like I said, please don't take offense -- I am the type of person who believes two can disagree without being disagreeable for the common good. I am also very academically-minded (that was one career), and now am legally minded, having embarked on a new career. I am also well-connected politially and have been extremely active in that area. That said, I completely understand the struggles many classes of people have experienced, be they Afro-mericans, Native Americans, women, Gays & Lesbians, etc.

You tell me:

Sheri,

It is important for us to make a point. If we don't stand-up and be counted, then the situation will never change. If a sister is terminated for such a trivial personal issue, they could make a very significant issue of it in the media. Maybe the local newspaper or TV station would like to present the story. Do you understand what I am saying? I am sure that the company doesn't want the negative PR. -- Yes sometimes there will be casualties, but it is important to remember that if you don't fight for your rights, then you are defeated and are part of the problem rather than the solution.

Let me make several points here:

(1.) The company doesn't have to explain why they terminate noname (if they did) -- so even if you could get a media outlet to want to run with such a story, which is not a given since we don't know what market she lives in, something that may or may not happen -- not only do they NOT have to explain themselves, under some laws, they are prohibited from publically making employment comments. Employee "discussions" are even protected from governmental "sunshine laws" which is why you read things like a city council going into "executive session" to deal with hirings, firings, etc.

(2.) If noname brings this to the media and starts making a rucus, she may be putting herself in a position that would place future employment in danger. She clearly was worried about employment, not having worked in a while and wanting an opportunity to prove herself for her abilities. Perhaps noname wouldn't want the publicity you suggest she could go after! Perhaps this could effect other aspects of her life we don't know about (but CAN presume). We can only go on what she said she wanted.

In the main, we are making progress -- maybe not as fast as some of us would like. IMHO, noname didn't need (and wasn't looking for) a push to "stand up and be counted" at this point in time. She was looking for very specific advice. I am with you regarding standing up and being counted -- but only when it is pragmatic to do so!!! You don't do some of the things I do if you aren't ready to be counted (posting a real photo avatar, being on Las Vegas Blvd in a wedding gown at rush hour posing for photo after photo, etc.).

Well, I hope this explains my position as compared to yours. I really don't think we are too far apart in much of our thinking, we just took different presepectives on noname's thread.

[Jamie001]

It does have the same importance. Both are forms of prejudice and discrimination.


I am sorry but you must have lost the plot if you think that dressing has the same importance as racialism

[Jamie001]

Hi Sheri,

I am beginning to agree with the point that you are making, however there is still one issue:

Many folks that replied to this thread suggested that noname "lie" if confronted. Assume that a loyal and respected employee saw noname and told folks at that company that he works for. Assume that they said that he was wearing toenail polish and mascara. Assume that noname is asked about this by a supervisor at the company that he works for. (This type of inquiry would be quite out-of-line for the employer IMHO) He could lie and deny what the trusted employee saw or he could tell the truth and say that he likes to wear toenail polish and so do alot of other men like shaquille Oneal and David Beckham. (it is not illegal to wear toenail polish). If he takes the advice that was offered on this forum and lies, he would put himself in a very bad position! Who do you think that the company is going to believe? Do you think they will believe the new contract employee or the long-term, loyal and trusted employee? If I was the supervisor that was asking the question, I would trust the long-term employee and I would believe that the new employee is a liar! I would be very concerned if I hired a person that outright lied to me. Hiring a liar is a lot more of a concern than hiring a guy that wears toenail polish. As his supervisor, since I have caught the new employee in a lie, how could I trust anything that he tells me in a personal or a work related context (in my mind he has been proved to be a liar)?

Does that make sense? Lying to your employer is always the absolute *WORST* policy reglardless of the question. That is where Bill Clinton made his mistake that cost him impeachment by the congress. He should have either told them that "it's none of their business" or he should have told the truth. Lying is what caused the problem for President Clinton.

Do you understand what I am saying? As a manager myself, I could never trust an employee that is caught in a lie and I have a lot of faith and trust in my loyal long-term employees.

Jamie :love:


Jamie,

This is just MHO, but this forum is about different things at different times. Sometimes it is a place to encourage activism. Sometimes it is a place for specific, pragmatic advice. Sometimes it is a place for a shoulder to cry on, and sometimes it is a place to have a laugh.

Read nonname's post again. Was she asking for legal advice (as obviously we have several lawyers on here), or was she seeking a way to make an activist statement? In part, noname said:
{Emphasis Added}

Now, my take is that, (A.) noname wouldn't mind being somewhat activist minded b/c (a.) she doesn't mind going out in public with a femme aspect showing ("Normally wouldn't be worried . . ."); but (B.) her main concern is her standing with this job and what could and couldn't happen ((( 1 - first job she's gotten in year and a half, 2 - it would be nice to be able to prove herself, and 3 - she'd appreciate positive spin. )))

Please don't take offense at this, but this is how I take what you and I were doing: I was trying to give her some supportive, sound legal advice (which IS based in law), and you are telling her be an activist, make a stand (a stand that could cost her her career -- and cost her the ability to make money), and you were doing so with some advice that has no basis at law. Like I said, please don't take offense -- I am the type of person who believes two can disagree without being disagreeable for the common good. I am also very academically-minded (that was one career), and now am legally minded, having embarked on a new career. I am also well-connected politially and have been extremely active in that area. That said, I completely understand the struggles many classes of people have experienced, be they Afro-mericans, Native Americans, women, Gays & Lesbians, etc.

You tell me:


Let me make several points here:

(1.) The company doesn't have to explain why they terminate noname (if they did) -- so even if you could get a media outlet to want to run with such a story, which is not a given since we don't know what market she lives in, something that may or may not happen -- not only do they NOT have to explain themselves, under some laws, they are prohibited from publically making employment comments. Employee "discussions" are even protected from governmental "sunshine laws" which is why you read things like a city council going into "executive session" to deal with hirings, firings, etc.

(2.) If noname brings this to the media and starts making a rucus, she may be putting herself in a position that would place future employment in danger. She clearly was worried about employment, not having worked in a while and wanting an opportunity to prove herself for her abilities. Perhaps noname wouldn't want the publicity you suggest she could go after! Perhaps this could effect other aspects of her life we don't know about (but CAN presume). We can only go on what she said she wanted.

In the main, we are making progress -- maybe not as fast as some of us would like. IMHO, noname didn't need (and wasn't looking for) a push to "stand up and be counted" at this point in time. She was looking for very specific advice. I am with you regarding standing up and being counted -- but only when it is pragmatic to do so!!! You don't do some of the things I do if you aren't ready to be counted (posting a real photo avatar, being on Las Vegas Blvd in a wedding gown at rush hour posing for photo after photo, etc.).

Well, I hope this explains my position as compared to yours. I really don't think we are too far apart in much of our thinking, we just took different presepectives on noname's thread.

[Sheri 4242]

Hi Sheri,

I am beginning to agree with the point that you are making, however there is still one issue:

Many folks that replied to this thread suggested that noname "lie" if confronted.

I see your point about lyng. Actually, in retrospect, if you'll look back at my earliest post, my suggestion skirted that line very closely!!! I said, "Maybe take the nail polish off for the short-run -- then, if the topic gets brought up, you were in male clothing and have no idea what he's talking about, in re the nail polish. Your line is, 'Gee, I want to rep this company professionally; I want to be considered an asset!!!' " And, to then tell them you are interested in what they are interested in -- a well-represented company of which you want to be a part -- a productive part!!!" I guess it depends on one's ethics if I got too close to the line or went over it with this idea. My thought process was to take the polish off, then if questioned about it, well there is no proof, which, in turn, leads to plausable deniability. Noname would possibly have to do some heavy-duty verbal tap dancing to keep from lying in such a confrontation! (I absolutely agree that such a line of questioning would be way out-of-line!!! That said, I have seen much worse from some employers) My main emphasis is that here is a sister who hasn't worked in a while, needs the work, and through the work might position herself for further work down the line. That is no time, IMO, to be rocking the boat, causing waves, or making a difficult stand that might have more far-reaching effects than we can imagine since we don't know other details.

So, yes!!! You do make sense about the lying. Many think that if Richard Nixon had come right out and told the truth and made a humble appology, there was a chance -- a long shot chance given his enemies, but a chance nonetheless -- that the truth would have eventually allowed him to weather the storm. The same is true for Bill Clinton. I've heard more than one professional say that Clinton has made it hard to prosecute future perjury charges b/c if POTUS can get away with perjury, what kind of precedent does that establish?!!!

I hope I made more sense in my last post previous to this one about noname's needs, vis-a-vis whatever her personal circumstances are -- IMO, she was clearly asking for advice on how to handle the situation if it became an issue at work so that she could keep a job she apparently wants and needs. I'm all for taking strides for our common advancement, and for making stands when it is apropos!!! I just didn't, and still don't, see that as the goal of the advice noname was desperately seeking.

:hugs: ~ Sheri ~

[raleighbelle]

Though I agree with the legal concerns mentioned above, I don't think you have to worry about anything, unless it becomes a frequent thing or you are seen as such at work. Even if the guy says something to your boss, I think your boss would want to confirm things before taking any kind of action, if he/she even had any kind of problem with it. I doubt that other guy took pictures and I cannot imagine him getting the security video from the store. I really think he looked at you that way more because he was embarrassed by where he was. It may be best to be a bit more conservative for a bit when in public, but I think you will be okay.

[noname]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I think I have a tendancy to worry a bit too much about these things. I think this is going to be a non issue as long as it's off the job. Worst case, the boss might tell mention it too me. I do have a favor to ask of those who have a good memory. Please do not refer to me as she/her. I know many here would like to be precieved as girl and I understand the good intentions. But for those who can remember, I'd like to be refered as guy.

Thanks so much

[Veronica 1]

Yes, sir. :D

[Sugar]

I don't know about you, noname, but I'm putting Sheri 4242 in my pocket.

Could U.C.L.A. be of any help? You know, the civil liberties people.

I'm such a ditz

sugar

[Sheri 4242]

I don't know about you, noname, but I'm putting Sheri 4242 in my pocket.

Huh? :straightface: What did I do now???

[DanaJ]

If you are referring to my post Jamie, I only suggested that because noname seemed to be looking for that sort of answer. I didn't push my agenda down the thread starter's throat, I answered her thread in the spirit in which I perceived she asked her question.

Of course, I say again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going out en femme, en drab, or anywhere in between. Everyone should do that - IF that is what they WANT to do. I do not advise to hide or be ashamed for anyone.

Hope this clears up things - if I am wrong then I apologize in advance.




Hi Sheri,

I am beginning to agree with the point that you are making, however there is still one issue:

Many folks that replied to this thread suggested that noname "lie" if confronted. Assume that a loyal and respected employee saw noname and told folks at that company that he works for. Assume that they said that he was wearing toenail polish and mascara. Assume that noname is asked about this by a supervisor at the company that he works for. (This type of inquiry would be quite out-of-line for the employer IMHO) He could lie and deny what the trusted employee saw or he could tell the truth and say that he likes to wear toenail polish and so do alot of other men like shaquille Oneal and David Beckham. (it is not illegal to wear toenail polish). If he takes the advice that was offered on this forum and lies, he would put himself in a very bad position! Who do you think that the company is going to believe? Do you think they will believe the new contract employee or the long-term, loyal and trusted employee? If I was the supervisor that was asking the question, I would trust the long-term employee and I would believe that the new employee is a liar! I would be very concerned if I hired a person that outright lied to me. Hiring a liar is a lot more of a concern than hiring a guy that wears toenail polish. As his supervisor, since I have caught the new employee in a lie, how could I trust anything that he tells me in a personal or a work related context (in my mind he has been proved to be a liar)?

Does that make sense? Lying to your employer is always the absolute *WORST* policy reglardless of the question. That is where Bill Clinton made his mistake that cost him impeachment by the congress. He should have either told them that "it's none of their business" or he should have told the truth. Lying is what caused the problem for President Clinton.

Do you understand what I am saying? As a manager myself, I could never trust an employee that is caught in a lie and I have a lot of faith and trust in my loyal long-term employees.

Jamie :love:

[Desiree2bababe]

It may lead to some interesting things. Don't worry about it for sure. I've been found out at most every job I've had, with the latest being seen by a beautiful blonde at work while I purchased a lovely purple ball gown.