Silk, Men and Islam

[renee99]

I was reading this and could hardly believe the rigidity of the gender stereotypes we have to deal with.


Among those who believe that there is reason and wisdom (behind the rulings of Islam) -- and they are the majority -- are some who answer that Islam has forbidden silk so that people will keep away from it for the sake of Allah, so they will be rewarded for that. Others reply that it's basically created for women, as is the case with gold jewelry, so it's forbidden for men lest it corrupts them by making them resemble women. Some scholars maintain that silk is forbidden because of what it may lead to in the way of pride and showing-off. Others relate the ruling (prohibition) to its having effect of femininity on men, as it goes against his masculinity and manliness. This applies to all men, even the most masculine and chivalrous of them. Whoever is too dense to understand this should just submit to the Wise Law-maker. (Provision of the Hereafter, 4/80)

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544848

[Jamie001]

This is insane!


I was reading this and could hardly believe the rigidity of the gender stereotypes we have to deal with.



http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544848

[Angie G]

Well i glad I live here hun :hugs:
Amgie

[Teresa Amina]

The Mongols (pretty macho guys) wore what was essentially a silk chemise under their clothes & armor as it resisted being pierced by arrows. When shot the arrow head could be pulled out of the wound easier.
The Islamic powers of those days adopted the custom so I guess they are burning in hell because of it :D

[BarbaraTalbot]

If it says don't wear silk and one believes then its a simple as avoid that fabric. All the speculation about why and what else is therefore forbidden is just silly. "Scholars!?" Right. Speculators I say. I say this realizing a lot of faiths seem to have things to say (mine included) that take what is written or said and extrapolates it to what 'else' is 'covered' under that saying, scripture or proclamation.

Starting with a belief in a supreme being or a creator, I would tend to assume that that being would have communication skills sufficient to not need a lot of speculative interpretation by mortal men of what was meant.

One of the threads that weaves through many religions is the idea of simplicity in clothing leaves one more humble and more in tune with being worshipful. You see this in Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, The Amish, Mennonites, and Nephites. Not bad advice really, but I am quite sure this is meant for the period before really cute heels were invented.

[JulieC]

You can be arrested for crossdressing under Islamic law, at least in some countries.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/peter_tatchell/2007/08/nigerias_antigay_witchhunt.html
(third paragraph)

[janet1234]

Perhaps one should resist muslim immigration in order to stave off eventual inposition of Sharia law. We already see the effects of honor killing.

[carie]

actually, jewelry such as neclace,rings, etc is ok for men as long its not gold.


Well i glad I live here hun :hugs:
Amgie

well, if u are Islam, u still under that where-ever u live .

[Toyah]

Just look at some of the people who post here and you will see exactly the same thing this is good that is bad you must do this to do this is wrong its all over the forum fight against narrow mindednes!!!!!

[Kate Simmons]

Their loss.:happy:

[Julie York]

If I wanted to know where I was going...I wouldn't ask someone who wrote a map 4000 years ago.







(Hey that's good! Write that down Mz Jones!)
:D

[renee99]

If I wanted to know where I was going...I wouldn't ask someone who wrote a map 4000 years ago.

Very well said... there's something to be said for learning from the mistakes, and standing on the shoulders of those that came before us... but I find the idea of submitting to their imperatives to be downright silly.

[MarinaTwelve200]

One thing you need to realize is that we are dealing with a multitude of small cultures, scattered across the mid east and central asia.

While the Koran, the "Holy" book of Islam, Is usually nowhere near as harsh and ridgid as some Islamists, It is often interpreted in the context of the local culture. It says that women should "dress modestly", for example, but "Modest" in several of threse cultures can range from simple, almost "normal" (for us) dress to full blown veiling or burkas.

A lot of this radical stuff is an offshoot of ancient local cutures rather than the words of the Koran itself. When I was in Egypt, the Moslems there, for the most part, were no more "worse" than a typical Babtist over here---sure they take their religion seriously, but dont try to hit you over the head with it. The radicals are an "embarassment"----but they are greatly feared.

[JenniferMBlack]

These are the same people that don't allow women to show any skin except their eyes because it is arousing. So it isn't to supprising to me that they think this way. Just be thankful that you life in a free society and you are able to express yourself and have your own beliefs and thank the service men and women for carrying on the tradition that allows us to keep these freedoms.

[Trinni]

I read the connected thread and that is someones opinion on the subject not law. If I read it correctly it states you can not wear anything that is harmful. I know people who are Muslim (Not Fanatical) and wear gold and other jewelery. I also know a few who have long neat dreads.

[Rachel Morley]

it's forbidden for men lest it corrupts them by making them resemble women .........Whoever is too dense to understand this should just submit to the Wise Law-maker.
Oh dear :sad: I was never very bright at school, I always knew I was dense, but now apparently I 'm corrupted too :tongueout

[KateSpade83]

I would have hated it if I was born Muslim or Islamic. I kinda dislike a lot of things about them too...

[Billijo49504]

Well, JMHO if you can't wear silk, I certainly wouldn't. That leaves nylon, rayon, satin and don't forget micro fiber, that feels great....BJ

[camera_laura]

You can be arrested for crossdressing under Islamic law, at least in some countries.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/peter_tatchell/2007/08/nigerias_antigay_witchhunt.html
(third paragraph)

Depending upon how strictly the koran is enforced, it could result in death. :eek:

However, in keeping with the spirt of this forum (keeping an open mind) *please* let's not let this thread get out of hand. While I am not an theologin or anything I am very well read.

Let me put this back into perspective. While there *may* be religious law (and Islam does not hold a monopoly on that) that frowns on (at best) or punishes (at worst) crossdressing, what is *far* more typical is secular ideas on the subject. You know, the 'macho' thing.

Not only does Islam frown on crossdressing, but does the Jewish Tradition (which Islam branches from) as well as Christianity (which also branches from Islam). I am less familar with Eastern religions (Buddism, Hinduism, etc.) but if opening up this for discussion (and *NOT* any religion bashing) I would be in favor of some intellectual discourse.

:stirthepot:

[camera_laura]

Well, JMHO if you can't wear silk, I certainly wouldn't. That leaves nylon, rayon, satin and don't forget micro fiber, that feels great....BJ

What I don't understand (and as a Rocket Scientist I *do* understand a lot) is that (with the exception of Silk which is afterall an old material) how can *any* religion make rules based on materials that post date the religion?
:bringiton:

[Blonde]

You know, in pagan religions (I hate the term, since anyone calling themselves pagan, are reffering to the christian definition, and just being rebelious to christian), cross dressers are "holy people", living in "both worlds"

[ShannonDragon]

Not only does Islam frown on crossdressing, but does the Jewish Tradition (which Islam branches from) as well as Christianity (which also branches from Islam).
:stirthepot:

Actually since Christianity came before Islam, Islam either branches from it or from Judaism.

All 3 are considered descendants from Abraham. As I remember right, the Koran says you are suppose to honor "People of the Book" ie Christians and Jews. However it seems that is a lost cause.

[battybattybats]

As this site is an international one it's important to bear in mind the large diversity of people that will visit it and the diversity of situations those people may find themselves in.

Thanks to the enlightenment most of us in 'the west' get to make religious choices (or have no religion) on our own conscience.. in theory.. people still come under a degree of family and community pressure to follow local religions.. but legally our freedom of choice is somewhat protected so long as we still obey the general rule of democratic law.. which itself is often still influenced by large religious groups.

Non Abrahamic religions (As Islam, Judaism and christianity all have the same god, the same {roughly} old testament but deviated later on) have a great diversity of views on Cross Dressing.

In some animist communities for example it is fine while in others only the shaman may crossdress and then only in a ritualistic capacity.

Confusionism is generally strict on matters of husbands and wives (for example one proverb goes that if you go more than three days without beating your wife she'll be up on the rooftop throwing tiles!).

Whereas Taoism (aka Daoism) is the origin of the yin-yang symbol where the mysterious 'way' or 'path' (which is what Tao means) is depicted by the balance of the male and female, each with a small dot of the other inside.. but it varies depending on the school of taoism some point out that some women are more Yang than Yin and some men more Yin than Yang (Yang being the strong and direct forceful power and masculine, Yin being the slippery and indirect power hence feminine), some claim that achieving equal balence of these forces in each of us is important while others are very strict about what behaviors are appropriate and what isn't for men and women.. taoism is a varied lot with deep philosophy, martial arts, medicine, magic and politics mingle..

Hinduism has a great deal of TG material which I'm only just starting to explore, though it still has it's extremists ready to use force to impose their view on the rest of the populace...

I think the important lesson though is that whether or not someone follows a religion or not, which one if any and how they interpret its edicts should be up to the individual, something that small groups of extremists in every faith and every country on earth opposes.

[BarbaraTalbot]

Actually since Christianity came before Islam, Islam either branches from it or from Judaism.

All 3 are considered descendants from Abraham. As I remember right, the Koran says you are suppose to honor "People of the Book" ie Christians and Jews. However it seems that is a lost cause.

Christianity traces it roots to old testament times before Abraham, but of course it wouldn't have been called that. Abraham wasn't a Jew, a Muslim, or a Christen. None of the people these faiths were named for of were yet born in the flesh.

Abraham had two sons the elder was Ishmael, the younger Jacob.

Muslims maintain that Ishmael held the birthright as is common for the oldest son in that part of the world and therefore the rights descend patrolineally. Mohamed was a prophet that arose later among this tribe of people and his teachings-Islam (and others? or of others that came before as taught by Mohamed? not sure..) were transcribed into the Koran. Which is now endlessly debated by followers of the various factions of Islam.

The Jews maintain that Jacob purchased the birthright and the blessing of Abraham from a dis-interested Ishmael. Jacob according to their tradition had his name changed to Israel and this son is considered the father of the Israelites. He had 12 sons. Each tribe that descended from each brother had its own traditions and responsibilities. Judah and Benjamin merged at some point and were the two left by the time of Herod. Jesus of Galilee is known today by Christians (literally meaning "Followers of Christ") as "the Christ" because they believe that he was the long promised Messiah promised to the Jews. The Jews acknowledge Jesus' life and existence on Earth, and see him as one of many teachers of Judaism. The books in the King James Bible (from whence most other translations are made) prior to the birth of Jesus are acknowledged by Jews as being part of the Torah or body of ancient religious writings. There are many many more books that just not included in the Reader's Digest version of the Torah that became The Old Testament. The complete Torah is now endlessly debated by followers of the various factions of Judaism.

The only real difference between Christians and Jews is the Christians believe they have their Messiah, and the Jews still await Him.

The Christians took what was available to them and seemed relevant to them from the Torah and for purposes of contrasting The Law as handed down from God on Mount Sinai to Moses, with the gentler teachings of Jesus The Christ included it as The Old Testament, together with the writings and remembrances of the apostles of Jesus in The New Testament and combined these writings into The Bible as it is known today. These scriptures are is now endlessly debated by followers of the various factions of Christianity.

[JulieC]

However, in keeping with the spirt of this forum (keeping an open mind) *please* let's not let this thread get out of hand. While I am not an theologin or anything I am very well read.

Just to be crytal clear; I'm not in any way suggesting bashing Islam or any countries that adhere to Islamic law. My post was intended to be informational, not hatred filled.


as well as Christianity (which also branches from Islam).

Christianity branches from Islam? I hope that was a typo :)

[Bonnie D]

I am always in awe when clothing becomes an issue in any religion. Why would any god be concerned about what you are wearing. Some of the most vicious people didn't wear anything outstanding and some of the religious leaders surround themselves in gold and silver and dress extravagantly or behave exactly the opposite of what the preach. I feel it should boil down to one thing no matter what religion you follow, Be Respectful of Each Other.

Many religious rules were created by man to control the masses. Men can't trust each other so they cover up their females as if they owned them. It easier to do that by saying God said so and so it is Law.

Power, Wealth and Sex. Nothing wrong with any of it unless it is misused and it often is.

Bonnie

[Robin Leigh]

I'm glad that I'm not trying to crossdress in a country with a dominant Islamic culture. Do you know how hard it is for a GM to shop for essential CD supplies in such places?

We don't have many members from such countries, and they don't post very often. But I'm glad (at least) one of them has posted in this thread. Thanks!

:hugs:

Robin

[KateSpade83]

Well, I think one reason there aren't many Muslim crossdressers are because Muslim women clothes are just so boring. It's like a sari that covers everything up!

[carie]

Well, I think one reason there aren't many Muslim crossdressers are because Muslim women clothes are just so boring. It's like a sari that covers everything up!

sari is from india ...even a sari is still reveiling.

[Alice B]

it is becoming a scary world we live in.:mad: