Aspects I Don't Understand

[sobe1ove GG]

PREFACE:
Hi! Now, I know people say how you shouldn't seek answers to the 'why' when it comes to CDing or TGs, but, I still have some questions.

Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.
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Alright. I have known about my boyfriend, Leah B, being a crossdresser for a little over a year. He only started actually doing anything with it last May.

Over the course of the last couple of months, we've talked a lot about what it is to be a cross dresser and transgendered. I've also heard a lot of things on these boards. Some of it I totally get, other stuff, I don't.

Here's the things I don't get, so that some of you might be able to educate me:

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

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Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe

[Dita_B]

Hello Sobe...

Now first off, I really wanted to answer your questions because IMHO they touch the core of the crossdressing issue and a bit of soul searching never hurts. But the opinions I will express hereunder are my opinions only and although coming straight from my heart, I do not pretend to represent the opinions of the cross dress community at large. Many cross dressers may have opinions that differ from mine and may even be appalled by them…


- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

You are absolutely right about this. It is unfair in my opinion to say this and in the process belittle or even bagatalize the impact the dressing has on the SO… Because it just isn’t only the clothes and every CD knows that. The underlying reason for the dressing is the desire to express as a woman. If it were the clothes only that desire would not be present. For instance when one wishes to dress like a witch at Halloween, does that mean that one wishes to express oneself as a witch or is it just a harmless disguise taken on only for the one time occasion?
So it sits deeper than the clothing alone. I remember the first time I donned woman’s clothing and it brought such intense feelings to the surface that I was overwhelmed and hooked for the rest of my life. I still don’t know where those feelings came from and I can’t answer that question, but I can assure you that they are there ever since and they have only intensified over the years…So I cannot agree with you more on this…


- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

Yes I understand this one, because I feel the same thing and do the same thing… Going out in the world as a man dressed as a woman is the ultimate challenge for every cross dresser… Read the forums about the subject… Passing as a woman in public means the ultimate confirmation for the successful expression as a woman for every crossdresser and is therefore (almost) every crossdresser's goal. You, as the SO, who loves him, and knows him are biased because of your relationship with him and are therefore disqualified as to judge his success in passing. The outside world however, who doesn’t know him/her from a hole in the wall and knows absolutely no scruples, will cruelly humiliate him in case they read him and they chose to do so. Groups of young teenage kids of both sexes are notorious for that. So the conditioning, stigma and stereotyping that goes with a male expressing as a female comes with a tremendous risk for the crossdresser who ventures out in public. It is therefore the ultimate crossdresser ‘s frontier and a challenge once over won that brings with it a feeling of euphoria, or even ecstasy, if you will. It comes straight from the soul and it is tremendously addicting, almost like if coming from using a drug…
So if you feel neglected in that respect please consider the circumstances around it. You are not neglected but your opinion as a biased person, is not the ultimate challenge and as such not the end of the line, but just a step on the way towards it…


- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

Now this reaches to the core of the crossdressing issue. IMHO there is NO COMPROMISE in the cross dressing issue. The crossdressing is not going away, no matter what the consequences. Most crossdressers, me included, have done the dressing for most of their lives, regardless of circumstances or danger of discovery… And we all keep doing it despite what consequences are at stake. It is an evolution process as well because we live and learn. We get better at all aspect of it including better covering our tracks and improving our female appearance… Finally there comes a time when we all conquer our guilt and wish to claim our unalienated right to express ourselves for what we really are. This is a life time process and it is not reversible nor negotiable. Any OTHER issue may be negotiable EXCEPT cross dressing. I am sorry to say this, but in my world this is the way I am and how it stands. I risk a 38 year marriage with my cross dressing and when I recently introduced Dita to my unaccepting SO, she had huge issues with it. She asked me to compare the impact seeing me dressed as Dita with her introducing herself in army fatigues, well knowing that I like to see her dressed as feminine as possible and as often as possible and also that I hate everything army with a passion… (No offense meant to those who wear the uniform out of free choice).
Well, I gave her some sheepish answer, because I couldn’t answer properly… Here it is where we are at loggerheads and I am not going to budge, because budging would mean lying and the lying and deceiving is over and behind me, I had it with lying. So the crossdressing is not going away and the lying is not an option… Not a good start for a negotiation, isn’t it? So I sincerely hope that she can find it in her love for me to accept the crossdresser in me and I in turn will try not to rub her face into it. Every time when Dita now returns from one of her outings, I consider myself in army fatigues in her eyes and although I am ecstatic to see myself in the mirror dressed as Dita and despite I hate it with a passion to take Dita off, I’ll do it for her in an effort to minimize the impact… I noticed for instance that she doesn’t look at Dita when she enters the house. She purposely avoids the sight of her…


- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

You are right again…I have noticed this as well and if you read the posts you will observe that most crossdressers have a tendency sooner or later to express themselves as a ****. I have analyzed this for myself as an attempt to express as the woman we never had and wanted so badly, whether in our fantasies or (temporarily) in reality. Now when a crossdresser has found a way to look like a real woman in the mirror it is a logical next step to express and dress in the way his “good girl” wife never wanted to express. We all seek a woman that will be the mother of our children, but somewhere we are excited about the bad girl… So when the bad girl doesn’t manifest whether in role playing or in reality, it finds a way to enter through the door of crossdressing. I have bought some ****ty outfits and I treasure them. I am not planning to go to the Mall in them, but I must admit that once when my SO was away from home for the night , that I dressed like a hooker and went down to the part of the City where they do their business and walked among them. It was a tremendous exciting experience and I tell you I could have made some serious money that night, but I felt no urge. What I got out of it though was an ultimate confirmation of my female expression… I was able to generate interest, how questionable it may be, from those John’s who were out there looking for a “date”…
Now, the idea of having sex with a male appalls me. So I am still sure to be 100% heterosexual… If a female I would be lesbian I guess, because I am still interested in females only from my sexual perspective…
So to summarize, it is only logic that every crossdresser will go through all facets of female expression that has ever generated his (sexual) interest. But only those expressions that resonate with him will remain. And that is different for each one of us…


- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

From my point of view, you are absolutely right. Expressing androgynous as a male to female expression and having to be much more “girly” at it, is to my taste a contradiction. Or, as you say it… changing one mask to the other, it doesn’t make sense to me, but hey it may make sense to him…


I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

And again, I have to agree with you. Having a preference for the things girls do and play with is for me not a sign of being a girl inside….but at most a support for the man who wants to express himself as a woman. IMHO on its own it means nothing. For instance, would it make me a woman when I pick up a woman’s fashion magazine while waiting at the doctor’s office? Or going through the racks with women’s fashion when I accompany my wife shopping for a new outfit? I don’t think so. This example may not touch the heart of the matter, but you get the point….Man can do many things that are typically seen as women’s jobs and women can do many things that are typically seen as reserved for men, like building a house, or as was said, driving a Harley Davidson bike. Does that make them wanting to express in the opposite sex? I don’t think so.

In resume it is a complicated issue and I have limited myself to answering your questions only and I tried to stay away from going on a tangent. However, I would want to stress to you that your relationship is at stake…in your position in regards to your boyfriend’s cross dressing. If he is anything like me, he will not abandon his cross dressing urge, no matter what. He may promise, but in the end the urge will show being stronger than himself. And if you are unaccepting the crossdressing will move back into the closet and/or the lying and secret phase will start all over again. It is up to you what you chose. I wouldn’t be able to live with a partner that dresses in army fatigues out of passion, much less making love to her, so I can understand that a compromise for his crossdressing may not be in your dictionary. However, if you would compromise, he would still be the guy you fell in love with and perhaps you may realize that one of the reasons you fell in love with him may well have been the fact that he acted towards you more from the female side of things…

I am sorry it has become such a long post, and I have written it 3 times now. But I just HAD to do it, because it is an issue many female partners have to deal with. If it has helped you, of anyone else in this forum, my time spent on it was well worth it…

I wish you all the best and I wish you wisdom in the choices you are going to make…

With lots of LOVE and COMPASSION, from Dita.

[Valerie]

Great questions. I have not the slightest clue about a "correct" answer, but we grew up in a culture that identified some aspects as masculine and others as feminine. Some of us are born in the forties... as hard as that is to believe, so perhaps we idenfify some colors, behaviors and so on as gender marked, while younger people do not. Your question about why clothes and accessories matter... I am not sure, but in our culture the fashion for men is limited and unimaginative, while women have wonderful options. (Would we still want to dress as women if they had to wear sacks?) In any case, thanks for your excellent questions.

Valerie

[Genevera]

no offense taken :)

there are no simple answers to your question, all your observations are right to some extent. Part of the problem is most CD's can't really express themselves very well, and they often misinterprate their own feelings for ideas that may or may not be correct. As you look over these forums you see CD's fixated on underwear, stockings, sleeping in panty hose and bras or old style clothng (possibly emulating their mothers). Some of these behaviours seem strange to you. In part because there are many causes of crossdressing.

You can almost look upon crossdressing as a symtom of something deeper inside the CD. Many go through some fetish stages and never go beyond that, others go beyond those stages, some dress constantly some sporadically, some dress for a lifetime and never get past the guilt, some come to terms with themselves, for me a year of hardcore therepy and a few suicide attempts got me to where I am. I was the product of the perfect storm for crossdressing, in doing the research my upbringing and home situation was ideal to create a crossdresser. Added on top of that were the drugs (prescribed) my mother used during her pregnancy that had the effect of feminizing my brain, those same drugs had the reverse effect on my sister masculinizing hers.

Going back to crossdressing being a symtom, that is why you see such diversity in the crossdressing community, every behaviour is tracing back to something that was a cause to them crossdressing. And their individual expression through crossdressing is as varied as the circumstances that led to the crossdressing.

Many threads in this forum do not apply to me so I don't follow them, nor do I look down upon those crossdressers because they don't do like I do, they are reacting to different causes than me and I understand that. But each one of those behaviours brings different issues into a relationship.

Communicate with him try to untangle his confusion or inability to express his feelings, what he is saying and what he really means may be two different things. It took years for me to figure out I didn't want to be a woman, or think of myself as woman trapped in a man's body.

Also understand this crossdressing community has a language all its own and crossdressing platitudes which are thrown around often in place of facts.

Spend time with the GG's here, contact CD's you are comfortable trying to talk to, e-mail me any time you need to bounce some ideas, if not me find someone your comfortable with to discuss things.

[Dee Talbot]

Naturally I have no answers to these questions :D But I think these questions are wonderful and look forward to reading all of the answers. To those whom have already answered, thank you for sharing your thoughts!!!

Dee

[Carin]

SoBe, these are good observations and excellent questions. Let me take a stab at some answers having been in most of these places. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just different views.

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them..

I think this is a matter of perspective. The CD is inside a room looking out the window at the beautiful ladies outside passing by. He wants to be out there and feel the same sensations that they do. For that he needs to put on the clothes, because without the clothes he believes that he won't know what it feels like to be a lady on the outside. His perspective as he goes out the door is that he is the same person, just with some necessary accessories (clothing). His perspective is that he is the same person physically and mentally. He does does not see himself differently, because he is looking out from inside his own mind. The SO can not see this perspective. She is a woman amongst women
She sees someone trying to be a woman coming out the door. That is a completely different perspective.


- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious..

I wouldn't go with that specific argument myself. However I think the pseudo logic behind it is: I get a big kick from emulating femininity. But I don't understand it. In order to understand more, I have to emulate more. To emulate more I have to go out and interact with more people (with strangers) as a woman. It is not so much what the stranger thinks from the interactions. It is more about how the CD feels in the interaction with the stranger.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE..

I don't not agree that this is a typical attitude specific to M2F CDs. That being said, the "Inner Turmoil" can be VERY strong. That compromise is not always an easy one. But in a committed relationship you have every right to be a part of the process. You have every right to aks for any compromise that you feel you need. You may not get it. But this negotiation does not have to happen with an attitude.

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did..

I don't know about 50's, maybe not so far back, but anyway. In going the journey the cd wants to experience the trappings of femininity, and not just the age appropriate ones. He wants to experience the whole spectrum, starting with what works for him - in terms of turn-on. But I think you are right. He starts with his "idealized and generalized view of a woman". However, don't fault him for not having an accurate understanding of "Real Women". Does anyone have an accurate understanding of "Real Women"


- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?.

Yes I do. But it may take an TG a long time to figure out their comfort zone on the spectrum. Overshoot is predectable. There is not much in the way of stereotypical TG role models or mental images to leverage. However, we are bombarded with mental images of women.

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

Well, that wasn't me, so I can't speak authoritavely. I was crossdressing in womens underwear when I realized I had gender issues. Maybe those posts suggest that those activities added to their information pool, as opposed to being the basis for thier conclusion.

[mylitta]

Good questions, Sobe, and thank you all for your thoughtful and honest replies. Very interesting and enlightening.

[kittypw GG]

Great questions Sobe.

Kehleyr's response is quite interesting but it raises more questions in my mind. A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial. :straightface:

So much of the crossdresser's life is baffeling in the context of identifying as a heterosexual man. It would be easier if the CD would just say "hey I'm a transexual" then you could just get on with life instead of waiting for the boom to drop or to keep trying to understand and wrap your mind around this whole phenomenon.

:hugs: Kitty

Ditta B. : When ever I take the time to type a long post I always copy it before I submit so that if the time out thing happens you can go back in a paste your reply.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial.

Hi Kitty,

A small proportion quite possibly are. I think a lot are frightened of the true extent of their transgendism and try to hide it from themselves by proclaiming how macho they are and how it's "just a hobby". There's nothing quite like a good dose of self-denial to fuel a high-octane emotional roller coaster ride ;)

[Byllie]

This is one interesting discussion. And it raises questions and concerns I've often mulled over myself.

Anyway, here's my 2 cents.

Several years ago, before I realized that I was a CD, my daughter had me take one of those online gender tests. She thought it would be fun. I came out slightly on the feminine side which blew her away, sort of.

Since then, I've taken such tests on occasion and always seem to fall on the cusp between masculine and feminine. Which is fine with me, but from my limited experience, most people cannot deal with a male who thinks, acts and looks half feminine and half masculine. Why?

I also have Tourettes Syndrome, tics that is, which can be suppressed. But if you do so, they come back with a vengence when you stop pushing them back. When I spend time *not* holding back the tics, I find they are milder and more easily dealt with. Tics are a part of my life, and those around me have come to accept them as part of me.

But the same cannot be said about CDing. How would folks feel if I wore whatever I felt like on a daily basis. Today a nice pair of slacks, tomorrow a skirt, or maybe a nice pair of skorts if it's a warm summer day.

I'm a guy, with a full beard (another story), and most folks would look at this behavior as odd or outrageous.

But, if a woman chose to wear slacks one day, jeans the next, a dress, or a skirt, no one would bat an eye. In fact, they might be impressed by the woman's breadth of taste.

I see men dressing to the nines, and wanting to called "miss" as overcompensating for the inability to dress and behave the way they'd like on a daily basis. I also see it, in older CDs, as a rapid progression through the stages of femininity that women experience through their whole lives.

Dressing age-inappropriate? Let's just called it delayed female adolescence. Yes, some CDs can get stuck in one of these stages, if their experiences do afford them what they need to move on to the next. And no, these are not TSs in disguise.

Anyway, that's just my humble opinion, for what it's worth.

[Paula Thomas]

Dita B - compose a long post or reply in a word processing program (e.g., Word), then copy it and paste it into the response box.

That way, you do not lose anything, you can use spell-checker, etc., and even take your time in responding.

I learned this the hard way. :(

[KandisTX]

Hello Sobe...

I am going to write you an answer from my point of view... You are touching the heart of the whole CD thing as far as I am concerned... But I have no time right now, and I just wanted you to know that an answer is coming...

:love:Dita.

Believe it or not Sobe, I just spent an hour writing you an answer only to find that my post was wiped out after I was finished and told me I didn't have the right to post because I was not logged in... Log in on this forum seems to expire pretty quickly and if one is writing an edit to a post, the editing gets wiped out as soon as the log in expires... I didn't know that... I will rewrite in a new post tomorrow...

I am sorry...Dita..

Well Sobe it happened again. I really have to earn the privilege of answering your post. Despite following the advise of another member of preventing the login to expire, I just spent another hour to only lose the entire post again... I don't know what is wrong with it, but there is clearly a serious glitch in the software powering this forum. But I am going to try it again, but now I am going to write my reply in MS Word first and than copy it in here...I am not risking losing all my work for the third time....

I am sorry again... Dita.


Dita,

You can type your post up on Word and then copy and paste it into the box to reply. Just make sure to log in :) I for one would LOVE to read your response to her.

Kandis:love:

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Excellent post; you raise many issues that I think a lot of us GG's have.

Kew

[AmberTG]

Here's an answer to some of the questions from someone who's been down both roads. First a bit of my background. I was a late starter, compared to a seriously transgendered person who knew when they were 4 or 5 years old. I was a normal boy until puberty. I've wanted to be a girl sense puberty, but I think that there's a fetish connection to that also. When I was younger, it was very much connected to fetish reasons, it always got me excited, and after satisfying myself, be it 5 minutes after getting "dressed" or 2 hours after getting dressed, the guilt and shame hit and the clothes came off. Just for reference, this was always connected to bondage also, and it was tough to seperate the two to figure out where the fetish actually came from.
As a young adult, I prayed to God on many occasions to change me to a girl. My first wife and I had many conversations about the idea of transition and if I could be successful with it, but I was not accepting enough of my issues to have ever been able to do it.
The older I got, the easier it was to seperate the bondage issue from the "dressing" issue. The CDing slowly became less and less a fetish, and more a "it just feels right" thing. At this point in my life, middle age (52) I'd say that I'm about as girly as any other middle aged woman. I get dressed up once in a while just to look good (good for the ego) but most of the time I'm comfortable in my jeans and T-shirts, like most women my age.
Now that I've been on T-blockers and estrogen for about 8 months, I nolonger have any sex drive. The bondage fetish is completely a non-issue now, but I'm more serious about transition then I have ever been in my life. That's where I'm coming from with the following answers.
I think MTF CDers fall into 3 basic catagories, and these catagories overlap to some extent. The fetish driven CD, the hidden (or not so hidden) TG, and those that don't fit either of those catagories. My personal opinion is that the 3rd catagory is mostly about denial of fitting into one of the 2 other catagories, but that's just my personal opinion.
The fetish driven CDer does it for the obvious reasons, it may be more complicated then that because of overlap, but you get the picture.
The TG driven person does it as part of the entire experience of being TG in the first place. I believe this is a much more complex area then the fetish area.
The going out in public thing has a lot to do with validating who you think you are, and many people get their validation from outside themselves. We have such a basic lack of self respect that we can only get it externally until we really come to terms with who we are and learn to finally like ourself for who we are. Many people never get to this point, and not just in the CD world. I really can understand how you feel hurt about your opinion and acceptance not being enough for your SO, but that outside acceptance is so important when you have a self respect issue.
That whole "if you don't like it, then leave" issue has mostly to do with defensiveness with a dash of selfishness, 2 things we're really good at. A combination of lack of self respect and pink fog makes for a really ugly combination in a relationship. Both of those things are hard for us to deal with, even when we know that we're doing it, they're almost instinctive reactions to confrontation about Cding, and most other things, come to think of it.
I agree with the other posts that talk about inappropriate clothing being part of the "delayed female adolescense" and, if the primary reason for CDing is fetish in nature, it's a turn on. I don't wear some of the things that I used to wear now because I'm not "turned on" by them now.
Just so you know, dressing androgenously is probably the easiest thing, but it won't get you IDed as female unless you look female. I think I get IDed as a gay man mostly, but then, I don't wear my wig and put on any makeup, I'm missing a fair amount of hair, and I still have a lot of beard shadow.
How others see me is their problem, not mine.
To me, I think associating activitys with a certain gender is a form of overcompensating for a CDer's sense of guilt and shame. Some of the great cooks are men and some women really enjoy "playing with guns". Women ride Harleys, they enjoy football (some of the most rabid Packer fans that I know are women, they'll beat you up if you diss Brett Farve!) It tends to be more of a cultural thing then a gender thing, except when a CDer thinks that a certain activity might "out" him, just overcompensation for that. I was like that for many years.
These are just my own opinions from my own experience, of course, everyone sees it a bit different.

[Marla S]

A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial. :straightface:

So much of the crossdresser's life is baffeling in the context of identifying as a heterosexual man. It would be easier if the CD would just say "hey I'm a transexual" then you could just get on with life instead of waiting for the boom to drop or to keep trying to understand and wrap your mind around this whole phenomenon.

"It would be easier".
I think this is a crucial statement.
IMO, yes it would be easier from a certain point of view, even for the SOs, because it is a clear and simple statement that doesn't really violate the gender norms and social settings and hence it is more easy to "understand".

"Just have SRS, and everything is according to the norms again"
"Just pass as a woman and everything is according to the norms again".

Most likely there are some CDs that are actually transsexuals in denial, but I am convinced that there are by far more CDs that desperately that try to present themselves as a woman are actually men in denial.

Meaning the constant pressure of justification, self-justification, explanations , the lack of a normal development of male femininity, the usually temporal restricted chance to dress, the "urge driven" expression of feminity etc. will lead in quite a few cases to the at least temporary denial of the male part of the personality.

I am convinced that most of the problems and questions for the CDs and SOs, impulsive behaviors etc. would vanish into thin air, if a "normal development of male feminity" would be (would have been) possible.

[sobe1ove GG]

Wow! I'm having such awesome replies. Thanks everyone! I look forward to hearing more.


Sobe

[AmberTG]

You know Marla, that's an aspect of the CD issue that I hadn't thought of, and might fit me to a certain extent. I would put that in my 3rd catagory, not fetish driven, but not quite TG either. But then, from a certain point of view, a "feminine man" could be considered as fitting into the TG spectrum. It may be simply a matter of point-of-view on this.
I do think I'd still want to transition though.

[sobe1ove GG]

.

"It would be easier".
I think this is a crucial statement.
IMO, yes it would be easier from a certain point of view, even for the SOs, because it is a clear and simple statement that doesn't really violate the gender norms and social settings and hence it is more easy to "understand".

"Just have SRS, and everything is according to the norms again"
"Just pass as a woman and everything is according to the norms again".

For me, it would be easier to know because then I wouldn't have to constantly worry. Right now, my Leah B is confused about whether he is TS or not. And, I don't want to be with him if he is and plans to live full time as a woman.

Frankly, I would like to know as soon as possible so that I don't waste all this time for a futile end. Know what I mean?

[AmberTG]

I can completely understand where you're coming from Sobe, my ex was the same. I know she had needs that I was unable to fill, sometimes, that's just the way life is. You need to have a satisfying life also.

[Victoria Anne]

Sobe , what a wonderful question , thought inspiring to say the least. I wish I could offer you an awnser but I just cannot so I do offer you my thanks for the question and to all for the replies , it gives one pause for thought on there dressing and te reasons why in many different aspects , thankyou.

Viccy

[MJ]

PREFACE:
Hi! Now, I know people say how you shouldn't seek answers to the 'why' when it comes to CDing or TGs, but, I still have some questions.

Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.
--------------------

Alright. I have known about my boyfriend, Leah B, being a cross dresser for a little over a year. He only started actually doing anything with it last May.

Over the course of the last couple of months, we've talked a lot about what it is to be a cross dresser and transgendered. I've also heard a lot of things on these boards. Some of it I totally get, other stuff, I don't.

Here's the things I don't get, so that some of you might be able to educate me:

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

OK so some of us need to think before we open our mouth i see what your saying how can we be one of the girls without the clothes

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

i am sorry i don't get that !!! . ""He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. "" whats next like me i need the surgery to feel complete !!! :eek: one step at a time Leah :hugs:

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

Just COMPROMISE. you can't do that in the bedroom , you can't go out side like that ... you can't put pictures on the net .. you can't wear makeup , you can't drive like that !!!
how about the gg take a step of Faith and stand by there wo /man and take one for our side instead of tighten the ball and chain

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what cross dressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

hey sobe did you know most cd'r dress like the woman they would like to go out with so what does that tell you !!!!
i wear panty hose because they give my legs some color and they look nice and Evan in tone let me tell you if i had found a gg who wears short skirts hose and heels well would i be doing this " sorry a little joke " maybe we are trying to teach you gg how to dress please don't kill me i am just saying :love:

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

OK confession time i dress full time and it's bloody hard ... yes as Leah said to pull it off ...the androgynous side of the female identity. would make life better don't you think hey sobe how are we hiding from our self's i don't understand are you saying all cd'r are girls in the wrong bodies ?

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.
now sobe you are trying to get in the head of a man ?? bad idea let me tell you something men are men they like to do the rough stuff try to fix things fight ,want to put as many notches on there belts in regards to woman they don't want to become a woman they want to do them..:D real men never play with Barbie or cook / clean thats womans work and another thing BOYs live by one set of rules .. GIRLs live by another .... thats why we are in this mess in the first place... i wish we could change that but we have a long way to go
------

Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe

i hope i don't offend anybody , but here is what i don't get .. have you notice the length of most m to f posts and replies ? and go take a look at the f to m posts and replies !!! one would think it would be reversed no ? thats no offense to your long post :love:

[MarinaTwelve200]

PREFACE:
Hi! Now, I know people say how you shouldn't seek answers to the 'why' when it comes to CDing or TGs, but, I still have some questions.

Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.

Who says you shouldn't ask WHY? Thats a silly , non-scientific approach or cop out. Sure the answers are usually complex, but an understanding can go a long way in dealing with CDing. CDing is not what one IS but what one does in response to about a dosen or so, and very different underlying mental conditions. Its an INDICATOR of an anomaly, and identification of the anomaly say, just thrill seeking, to full blown Transsexualisim is important if you can do it.





- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them..

CDing upsets the average, uneducated person---They think it means the CDer is gay!----and keeping it secret to boot===NOT a good thing for a susposedly hetro relationship. Of course CD=gay is a MYTH, but many people dont know that because they really dont know what gay means and this causes a lot of needless troubles.






- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did..

CDers CD for different reasons. A transsexual would want DIFFERENT things from CDing that a thrill seeker or escapist. That explains why there are "oddities" and an apparent lack of consistancy from CD to CD---As they are being driven by different motives.




- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

------

Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe


All you need to remember is that There are different REASONS for CDing and that affects the CD pattern of the individual. People may CD because they are Transsexual, To address their "Fem Side", To ESCAPE Themselves, or their "male side", to "relax', to satisify a fetish, Part of an SM fantasy, or a simple turn on, or thrill.------

Its HARD to know what reason it is because the mind will fool itself. The man who declares he "wants to be a woman", for example, may really be a Transsexual---OR NOT-- thats the only way he knows to get a certain sexual THRILL.=====very different REAL motives. Some folks give up on figguring out why.

[MJ]

For me, it would be easier to know because then I wouldn't have to constantly worry. Right now, my Leah B is confused about whether he is TS or not. And, I don't want to be with him if he is and plans to live full time as a woman.


Frankly, I would like to know as soon as possible so that I don't waste all this time for a futile end. Know what I mean?

why say that !!! you do know there are toys .. and you have a best friend and she is already house broken

[WyomingDiva]

A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial.This is one of my concerns about my SO...he says not, but as he comes 'out' to me more, it appears this might be true.

For example, he wants breasts and takes herbs to help with that and also talks about having surgery to have implants. I don't know what to think...

This is an informative thread, esp. for a newbie like me...keep it coming! :thumbsup:

[RebeccaLynne]

.


I am convinced that most of the problems and questions for the CDs and SOs, impulsive behaviors etc. would vanish into thin air, if a "normal development of male feminity" would be (would have been) possible.

Sobe, I believe Marla has provided some valuable insight here.
The upbringing of males in modern society is strictly defined. No tolerance of feminine qualities is acceptable. A young girl's interest in so-called "masculine" endeavors, i.e., sports, rough and tumble play, etc., is considered 'tomboyish', and of no detriment. A young boy's interest in feminine areas, i.e., fashion, playing with dolls, etc., is deemed "girlish", and, as such, somehow reprehensible.
A double standard exists.
And we'd all be better off if it didn't.

[Mary Morgan]

Sobe, I'd love to give you the answers you seek, but I too am confused by all of this. I find my need to express my feminine self to be irrational and impossible to explain to others. I can only grope with possibilities and then I am admittedly inconsistant about it. I can only tell you with certainty the following: I need, no I must express this part of me; it is not just the clothes, I love the time I am "em femme" as we say; I hate putting my drab back on; I am defensive and therefore inconsistant about all of it; I sometimes feel persecuted about it; I don't think there is anything unnatural about it; I do wish that I could move in society without scorn; I love who I am and I want others to love me too, I hate that my needs are a detriment to that for some. We live in a society of judges, too fat, too tall, too much money, too little money, too butch, too feminine, too much judgement!

[WyomingDiva]

I find my need to express my feminine self to be irrational and impossible to explain to others...I need, no I must express this part of me...Wow...now you sound like my SO. Insightful.

And if this is how he feels, is it any wonder that I (and sounds like many other GGs here) am so scared and confused??? Afterall, I know my SO and I mirror each other's emotions and mental states QUITE often. :happy:

[PaulaJaneThomas]

For example, he wants breasts and takes herbs to help with that and also talks about having surgery to have implants. I don't know what to think...

Many TGs have a deep desire to have breasts. That's why all these quack herbal concoctions exist - to exploit desperate and vulnerable people. None of this is of itself diagnostic of transsexualism. Transgendism is not a simple either/or thing. It's a complex patchwork of traits of desires.

[Melanie R]

Sobe,

Have you read the books of Dr. Peggy Rudd and/or Helen Boyd? If not please do so as most of the answers to your questions and concerns are addressed in those books written by the wives of transgendered persons. In reality there are no simple answers to all your questions and concerns.

[Dita_B]

Well it took me the better part of the Sunday, but I just wanted you to know that I was finally able to get it in there.

I rewrote the post in MS Word and copied and pasted it into my original post using the edit feature. A little bit of editing and VoilÃ*...

I wish to thank all those who sent me personal messages with good advise. You are all very kind and compassionate as could be expected from you bunch of girls!

...and KandisTX, you can now read my post if you are still interested...

Thank you all again, you are all sweethearts...

:love:Dita.

[sobe1ove GG]

Now this reaches to the core of the crossdressing issue. IMHO there is NO COMPROMISE in the cross dressing issue. The crossdressing is not going away, no matter what the consequences. Most crossdressers, me included, have done the dressing for most of their lives, regardless of circumstances or danger of discovery… And we all keep doing it despite what consequences are at stake. It is an evolution process as well because we live and learn. We get better at all aspect of it including better covering our tracks and improving our female appearance… Finally there comes a time when we all conquer our guilt and wish to claim our unalienated right to express ourselves for what we really are. This is a life time process and it is not reversible nor negotiable. Any OTHER issue may be negotiable EXCEPT cross dressing. I am sorry to say this, but in my world this is the way I am and how it stands. I risk a 38 year marriage with my cross dressing and when I recently introduced Dita to my unaccepting SO, she had huge issues with it. She asked me to compare the impact seeing me dressed as Dita with her introducing herself in army fatigues, well knowing that I like to see her dressed as feminine as possible and as often as possible and also that I hate everything army with a passion… (No offense meant to those who wear the uniform out of free choice).
Well, I gave her some sheepish answer, because I couldn’t answer properly… Here it is where we are at loggerheads and I am not going to budge, because budging would mean lying and the lying and deceiving is over and behind me, I had it with lying. So the crossdressing is not going away and the lying is not an option… Not a good start for a negotiation, isn’t it? So I sincerely hope that she can find it in her love for me to accept the crossdresser in me and I in turn will try not to rub her face into it. Every time when Dita now returns from one of her outings, I consider myself in army fatigues in her eyes and although I am ecstatic to see myself in the mirror dressed as Dita and despite I hate it with a passion to take Dita off, I’ll do it for her in an effort to minimize the impact… I noticed for instance that she doesn’t look at Dita when she enters the house. She purposely avoids the sight of her…

.......


In resume it is a complicated issue and I have limited myself to answering your questions only and I tried to stay away from going on a tangent. However, I would want to stress to you that your relationship is at stake…in your position in regards to your boyfriend’s cross dressing. If he is anything like me, he will not abandon his cross dressing urge, no matter what. He may promise, but in the end the urge will show being stronger than himself. And if you are unaccepting the crossdressing will move back into the closet and/or the lying and secret phase will start all over again. It is up to you what you chose. I wouldn’t be able to live with a partner that dresses in army fatigues out of passion, much less making love to her, so I can understand that a compromise for his crossdressing may not be in your dictionary. However, if you would compromise, he would still be the guy you fell in love with and perhaps you may realize that one of the reasons you fell in love with him may well have been the fact that he acted towards you more from the female side of things…


Dita... Thanks for the thoughtful response. I really need to talk about the points I quoted, though.

You think there can be no compromise on the CD side. Well, to clear things up, I am not, and would never, ask him to stop CDing. That's not the issue.

Things that would need compromise are maybe how often he does it, who we tell, how often he goes out, and so on. I feel that if you, or he, can't compromise on those things and expect us, the GGs to do all of the bending, then maybe you don't love us enough.

[Lora Olivia]

Very interesting thread hon...for me at this stage I consider myself to be bi gendered, a term that I believe fits me. I AM a male and female personality in a genetic male body although there is some ambiguity there as well since I have nice B cup very femme breasts with prominent sensitive nipples. I only came out of my own denial in the last few years and at the point of me driving (him) crazy I came out to my wife. Of course there was all the usual questions, are you gay, do you want a sex change or are you just playing a game and trying to drive me crazy. Now she has learned that many of the traits that she liked in (him) were me. She has told me things about her past that she hadn't told him in 25 years or anyone else for that matter. Now how much better can it get that she can have (him) and a very bestest friend. The 1 other thing in your posts that I wanted to comment on was the need for us kind of people to go out and why for alot of us just the acceptance of an SO is not enough. When I do get out I feel so alive, to have a hostess at a restaurant say "Good Evening ladies, can I get you a table or a booth" or the server "What can I get you girls to drink" Now that is true validation. In the times I have been out I have gotten a couple looks but were they truly a "hey is that a man" look? Not sure but I do know that they were few out of hundreds of people. Anyway Sobe hon kudo's to you for trying to understand. :hugs:

Oh and Dita hon...if you sit there thinking and typing for a fe minutes like I just did and then have it tell you you dont have permission just log in on that page and it posts right up

[Holly]

...then maybe you don't love us enough.So then, do I understand you to be saying that your mates ability to display his love for you is contingent upon how much he will bend to your will? Using your logic, then perhaps you don't love him enough to accept him as he is.

[sobe1ove GG]

So then, do I understand you to be saying that your mates ability to display his love for you is contingent upon how much he will bend to your will? Using your logic, then perhaps you don't love him enough to accept him as he is.

I'm in a weird place right now. It seems that we are most likely breaking up. Mostly because he is not willing to compromise at all. Not even a little. So... I think that's disrespectful. It's like me expecting him to give up CDing altogether. It's not nice on either side.

[Lora Olivia]

oh no hon...i feel for you i really do more :hugs:

[WyomingDiva]

there is NO COMPROMISE in the cross dressing issue. The crossdressing is not going away, no matter what the consequences.What's confusing about this for me, is DH has told me this. I can see that. I believe it.

But in the next conversation, he says he'd give it up if that's what it took to keep our relationship intact.

I guess he and I are going to have to talk about THIS issue soon. Ack.

[Rachel Morley]

I gotta be honest .... it must be so hard for a woman who likes her man to be a "man" discover that he's a crossdresser. That is if he's the sort of cder who hides it well and then springs it on her.

No matter how loving an accepting a person is, if it grates with the very core of what it is you want in your life you can't really ... not truly ...not fully .... accept it.

I know in my heart of hearts that if my wife were to want to dress in manly plaid shirts, boots and jeans, with false facial hair etc .. and want to do it regularly, I wouldn't love her any less, because she's still is the woman inside I married (she does actually sometimes dress like this at home for fun. Click HERE (http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-4wJUrx08erREtjl3CGIxmQ--?cq=1&p=1120) if you don't believe me ....yes this pic really is Marla GG) but I sure would miss seeing her in feminine floaty skirts and heels :sad::sad:

[MJ]

I'm in a weird place right now. It seems that we are most likely breaking up. Mostly because he is not willing to compromise at all. Not even a little. So... I think that's disrespectful. It's like me expecting him to give up CDing altogether. It's not nice on either side.

sobe i am sorry to hear this , as much as we are hard wired from birth to be this way i also understand gg are also hard wired at birth to want only a man thats the hardest thing we just don't get ... some girls like girls and then the boys who love boys and everything in between some of us here are lucky some of us are not it's finding that balance thats keeps us together and respect on both sides

[kittypw GG]

.

"It would be easier".
I think this is a crucial statement.
IMO, yes it would be easier from a certain point of view, even for the SOs, because it is a clear and simple statement that doesn't really violate the gender norms and social settings and hence it is more easy to "understand".

"Just have SRS, and everything is according to the norms again"
"Just pass as a woman and everything is according to the norms again".

Most likely there are some CDs that are actually transsexuals in denial, but I am convinced that there are by far more CDs that desperately that try to present themselves as a woman are actually men in denial.

Meaning the constant pressure of justification, self-justification, explanations , the lack of a normal development of male femininity, the usually temporal restricted chance to dress, the "urge driven" expression of feminity etc. will lead in quite a few cases to the at least temporary denial of the male part of the personality.

I am convinced that most of the problems and questions for the CDs and SOs, impulsive behaviors etc. would vanish into thin air, if a "normal development of male feminity" would be (would have been) possible.

Marla,
Your position is very compelling and I have pondered this even before meeting and getting married to my CD husband.

I tried to raise my son in a way that allowed him to express his "true" self. I tried to stay away from all the gender trappings of our society. He developed great creativity but was somewhat confused about where he fit in with everyone else. I don't mean genderwise but just thinking wise. If all parents would adapt this way of thinking it would be easier for our little girls and boys to accept themselves and develope a true sense of who they are IMO. One of the guys that I work with has a son. He tells his son that he can't cry when he is hurt but he has to rub it and shake it off. I think this is in part what you are talking about. The supression of what is perceived as feminine in our little males. It is a great shame that we do this. It makes it hard for the non gender effeminate males to fit in an feel a sense of acceptance.

I could go on about this subject, I feel quite strongly about it, but I won't. Thanks for your comments and the food for thought. :hugs: Kitty


PS Sobe I hope that you and Leah B can find some common ground. It would be a shame to loose a love over lack of comprimise. I know it is hard but try to keep the emotion out of things. Maybe step back away from the topic for a while to gain some perspective? Kitty

[crunchysoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG
For me, it would be easier to know because then I wouldn't have to constantly worry. Right now, my Leah B is confused about whether he is TS or not. And, I don't want to be with him if he is and plans to live full time as a woman.


Quote:
Frankly, I would like to know as soon as possible so that I don't waste all this time for a futile end. Know what I mean?



Originally Posted by MJ
why say that !!! you do know there are toys .. and you have a best friend and she is already house broken

What? I am confused, are you saying the answer is just to go get a vibrator? Really you jest.

[Marla S]

For me, it would be easier to know because then I wouldn't have to constantly worry. Right now, my Leah B is confused about whether he is TS or not. And, I don't want to be with him if he is and plans to live full time as a woman.

Frankly, I would like to know as soon as possible so that I don't waste all this time for a futile end. Know what I mean?
I think I know what you mean and I think there is nothing wrong with your point of view.


Things that would need compromise are maybe how often he does it, who we tell, how often he goes out, and so on. I feel that if you, or he, can't compromise on those things and expect us, the GGs to do all of the bending, then maybe you don't love us enough.
I think it is not a question of love or something that can be measured in degrees of love.
IMO love provides time for the difficult task to get a grip on CDing within a relationship; nothing more and nothing less. This time should be wisely used.

Given CDing is an expression of a basic need (I believe it is), than it is somehow comparable to other basic needs.
One of which would be eating (I know it sounds silly, but on my long time search of something that has some parallels to Cding, I think it has quite a few).

Hard to imagine that someone is able to follow an advise like:
If you love me you eat once a week only.
If you love me you eat fish only.

Probably it will work for a short time (because of love), but not in the long run.
Is this a sign for a lack of love ?
No, it is a sign that basic needs will pave their way on any risk. If there is a huge deficiency of a basic need your subconscious will switch off your ratio just to supply the want ; you act like in trance or like standing beside yourself.
This is usually called the urge and might experienced by the SO as selfishness of the CD.

To stress the eating analogy a bit further:
If one tries to force the eating behavior into a certain pattern which doesn't suit the own needs (conscious, subconscious, physical) this can lead to eating disorders.
I think it is similar for CDing.
IMO most CDs will at least start with some kind of "dressing disorder" that have parallels with some eating disorders (too much, too sweet, too often, overeating due to frustration, bulimia (dress and purge), etc.), because we are forced and force ourselves into patterns we don't really fit in.

I think what is needed is to get rid of the disordered part.
This doesn't mean to get rid of CDing, it does mean to get rid of some inner and outer restrictions.
Only then I think it is possible unwrap the "real degree of transness" and to become able to make compromises.

How to achieve this ... I DON'T KNOW ! (Probably there isn't a universal answer anyway)

My approach to get there was and is:
What ever I do, I have to find a level that I am able to live and maintain 24/7 everywhere and in front of everyone.
So far I ended up as feminine man or effeminate man (however you want to call it), being able to dress more drabish for certain, rare occasions, but also to have my more girlish days.

[MJ]

What? I am confused, are you saying the answer is just to go get a vibrator? Really you jest.


no i am not saying that at all if you read my post here you would understand that ... we go out look for our "perfect mate" we find qualities we love and fall in love and over time that love grows deeper and one day we find out something we just don't understand .. my god my night in shining Armour wears womans cloths , but what about the love and respect built up over years ... is it worth losing everything and starting over with someone you don't know what if he is a woman beater or a drunk did you trade up ...
just for the record we "guys " here love you girls so much we would do and try anything to make it work we don't ever want to lose you
i would think it makes sense to try to live with the other woman after all most gg have been doing that all along you just did not know it ..
i also understand sometimes that can't happen
it is so gross to be with a cd'r ?should a soul have a gender

[Mary Morgan]

I don't mean to frighten you or confront you, but I am trying to say that like so many other parts of me, this is who I am and I must exercise it. I could no more deny my transgender nature than my left-handedness, my artistic nature, my love of family and so on. It goes to the essence of who we are, what makes us unique, special, and valuable.

[Angie G]

Sobe this is a good post and the points you make are good ones nothing in if offends me and I'm inagreement with a lot of it I do compromise with the wife she gives and I give and it work for us I would never take us some were without her input on it :hugs:
Angie

[Carin]

What's confusing about this for me, is DH has told me this. I can see that. I believe it.

But in the next conversation, he says he'd give it up if that's what it took to keep our relationship intact.

I guess he and I are going to have to talk about THIS issue soon. Ack.

I've said that too. The gut-wrenching grief of the thought of loosing your life-partner is overwhelming. I would take a bullet for my SO. But in some respects, that would be the easy way out. For some - me included - to deny all expression of being transgendered would be to kill of a part of myself, and the part of me left over would be a miserable lump.

So compromise. For some it is easy, for some it is not. "You can only be yourself on Thursdays"! If that is close to meeting my needs, that works. If my core being needs more expression that that then what I hear is "I reject you on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

We can compromise on what to eat for dinner, what tv show to watch. We can compromise on buying a car or saving our money. It is not possible to compromise your core chemistry. You can surrender some of the expression. But it does feel like compromising your own self.

For the SO it feels like compromising her self to unequivocally accept and support that which she is not comfortable with some or much of the time.

That is the ultimate dilemma in a relationship. How do you compromise your sense of self, for your partner.

[AmberTG]

Very few people can compromise on their core personality, they can hide it, but they cannot change it. To compromise past a certain point will cause resentment, and that resentment, from either side will eat away at a relationship, like rust on steel. Eventually, the relationship becomes too corroded and falls apart.

[Chantelle CD]

May i have a shot at this one <lol>


- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

First off, i do get when an SO says she is upset, this is not an easy thing to get, and i think a lot of Cd's get carried away with this gender thing, and i say this knowing that i will get flak from peops here, know that ill never get replys from those that judge my views, and thats ok i dont care, im gona give it anyways :)
To say its just cloths, is a attempt to get the SO to just accept it, the cloths are important, they help or make us transform!!! damn right there important, so is the make up, the wig, the forms, the padding. And your totally right, if they are just cloths, you wouldn't need them, they are more than that. Is it who i am truly inside??? For me, to call what i am when dressed all i am inside, is so limiting, fact is, we all are all that can be felt, not just the female feelings and emotions, all the male ones, all the joy, fear, absolutely everything we can feel and take inside 100%, is us. People take these feelings in, and totally enjoy them, run with them, and some to the max!! Really how hard is it to believe, we are what we feel at any given moment??? i can totally feel femme and pretty in any clothing i have on, and in an instant i can feel macho, masculine, handsome, just like that!!!! Can go from feeling anger, to happiness, just like that!! don't believe me, try it yourself, we all can. god gave us all free will, and its peoples free will that labels what they feel inside, and call it what it is they truly are. Be all you can be!!



- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

<sigh> <deep breath>

This one may seem different for others, but i think there is still some truth in regards to this one. For me i don't want to be treated as a woman really, i want people to see me and accept what it is i am feeling as real, the more i see this the more i am happy in knowing what i am feeling feels right, BUT believe me, i really LOVE feeling like a man, and having that accepted, feels just as good!!! I guess it is a feeling of completeness, its not so much what strangers think so much, as feeling acceptance, and the freedome to express outwardly, not just in the confinds of your home, these feelings that we can feel. Going out does, let us do this, It is so liberating to feel this side of the coin, she becomes alive, after being dormant for so so long, I DONT understand tossing the male side at all!!! That feels so good too!!! And it is how we were born. I said to my sister the other day when we were out dressed.... " I dont know what i would prefer more..being a GG and really being this i feel, or what i am, a man feeling what i can, and feeling this side i do when dressed so much as i do''. And honestly, i think if i was a GG, it would feel as normal as being a guy does, and the total joy of feeling what i do when dressed would not be there. To feel femme outside in the world, let these feelings and movements be natural, outside of just the home, is so so liberating for lac of a better word, imagine, being able to feel these feelings, for as long as you can remember, and never being able to express them outside of private, and by yourself, and then you go out, and you can!! its a feeling i cant even begin to describe. We are what we feel at any given moment, and to choose to feel these things, and be out, i cant describe Imagine going back in time, and all woman, had to be girly girls, dresses and skirts only, walk like a lady, be feminine all the time, no more pants, no more T shirts, no more just walking normal. I love a feminine woman, i would very much like that, in school all girls wore jeans, all high waisted jeans, i loved them on them too, but now, girls jeans are all low rise, going even closer to mens jeans, Hmmm what is womans styles heading towards? FTM CDing???? seems that way to me. Why, cause it makes them feel more than they can, so really why is it tabo for ment to have this???? if people really cant understand this, then i think every one should go back to girly girls, and ware dresses only. Its all about expression, isnt it?

I don't really think it's what strangers think that is more important than what you do, that is the key, its that he wants to express at the moments he wishes to.




- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards


That altitude is not healthy, especially for a relationship, Again this thing about how you are on the inside is CRAP!! Again, its what we can feel at a moment we can!! its not all anyone is!!! Ya we can feel and grow a female persona, and it can become very real and alive, but damn it, take it all off, and we are men again, and ummmmmm yaaaa this is totally real as well, They need to come up with a name for people that can feel both sides of the coin!! completely. Or is that what TG really means, honestly i hate the term CD, im a man that can feel so much inside, so much more than most men can, that buy into men are to be macho he men, limiting perspective completely. CD makes me feel freakish!!! like its not normal, how about...... ''Emotionally literate'' I like that one better!!!!

You shouldn't lose your rights to be partners, but how hard is it to accept allowing your man to be free to express all he can, its when they run with it, let it consume them, and they forget what a man feels like, that becomes a problem, this will destroy a relationship faster than you can shake a stick!! Again i think saying .... If you don't like it leave, is an attempt to get you to just accept what it is he is doing. Maybe he is being obsessive and losing his male self in the possess, and your not accepting this is because you hate to see him go???


"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."


Be a man more, that is what you were born, please your wife, let her feel like a woman in a mans arms, deny her that, and she will leave!!! Another TRUTH. He can make any excuse in the book, there is a million of em, reality is....he is more than just that.



Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

First thin about this, is the term gender identity, you are what you were born!! how can it be any different???? you can just feel what you can feel, express what you can express. Thats it. Hate being a man, hey i can feel like a woman, im a woman in a mans body!!! OMFG gime a break!! God made you a man, or call it the luck of the gene draw, what ever.....thats what you are, live your life as one!!! Express what you will!!!!! You are 100% right it is a partnership!!! and one is all about COMPROMISE!!! Just how obsessive is he??? How much of the blinders has he over his eyes??? Me saying this may make you want to defend him, you love him, but reality is reality, right, from your post, i sense a bit of a battle in your relationship, i don't know whats its all about, i just get what i have read from you, and have to decipher it as best i can, ill talk to you here in this reply in truth as i see it, thats it, take it if you will.....or not, i hope that what i say gives you some comfort, or understanding.



- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

<another deep breat>

Ok...I don't emulate a woman, i feel female feelings and emotions, femininity, and express it. Thats it. Its not hard to understand, i do it because i can, and it feels good. Plane and simple. panty hose don't do a lot for me, but cover up my work scared legs, <but i have learned about a product that covers these scares for your legs YAAAA> You didn't offend me at all, but i think you don't really realize the truth about what this really is, i don't think a lot do, The feelings are real, not emulating, not trying to be a woman, But expressing what you feel, and hey....its what a woman does, cause the energy is real. I don't have to watch woman and copy them, i see there movements and grace, and recognize it, its what i feel too!!! How about that huh....<chuckles> A lot of what most dress like, is how they wish to feel, how they like to express what the do feel, no biggie, to go out and express femininity and be a man doing it, its better to dress to blend in.



- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

This may show you what im saying is true, you can feel what ever you wish to feel, it has nothing to do with what you truly are!!! you are all you can feel!!! Hiding from yourself is....not allowing yourself to express what it is you want to express, if one is a man and wants to totally express femme, then so be it, do SRS too if you want, be ready to deal with reality of doing this though. Heard so much about this, have meet a few peops that are going threw this now, and they have counselors, fight depression, cause they basically are turning there backs on the side of the coin that they were born, and in reality, its the way they will get 100% acceptance from the outside world, how can that not be depressing??? again all this what i truely am stuff, is simply because people do not understand energy, and reality, feeling what ever you chose, is simply free will. There is a saying i believe in, and that is "fake it untill you make it" in other words, if you are sad and depressed, you will attract even more of this energy to you, you can however, force feeling good and happy, and hold onto it, and you will start to change what comes back to you, this is powerful, and works, why???? because what you feel at any moment, is real, and will draw to you more of the same, because energy is magnetic!! Truth again.

What he wishes to feel can and will change, as his desires change to express what he wishes to differently.



- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

Your totaly right!!! this will hinder the progress of men!!! Some men like to cook, dont like sports, and dont drink beer!! so what!!! linking this to gender, is a cop out!! because of what i said above!!

Now i know what i have said im going to get some that will judge me for what i believe in, not reply to my posts, i was going to reply to you in a message, but changed my mind, there is a reason i have what i do as a signature, judgment is the crime in life, i may be baned for saying what i believe, like others have, if i do i wont come back, because i will know that this place is riddled with it, and not working to help others communicate about this they are fighting with, the reason we are here maybe?? Any ways, you asked i replied how i understand what this is to me, and that is simply we are what we feel at any given time, chose what you feel to be that fits for you, its not all that you are, nor is it what you truly are, thats to limiting!!! When others see and feel what you are putting out, they will recognize it, and believe it, cause what you feel is real, this is how you pass!!! no matter how well you make yourself up, if you forget for one second what your putting out, and feel male energy, you will get had fast!!! My sister told me when we were at the mall, she watched one person look at me, and not know what i really was, i was going threw fear, focusing on female energy, and going back to trying to protectmyself, my male side, the persone didnt know what i was, and she knew i was a CD when my male side was to convincing for her, and she shook her head knowingly, my sister seen it, and told me later, i told my sis, i was fighting then going back and forth, because i was having a hard time focusing on what i needed to because of fear of being read, first time in a mall dressed. once i get a handel on this fear, im gona have so much fun with this....what a w00t.

Sorry this was long, your post was a long one hehehe

Basicly he is saying this is what i am, and showing you differently, because he changes, and it confuses you. He wants to go out, and your afraid it will be out of the bag, and life is over as you know it. Am i right about this ???? He wants to take his femme feeling to the max, we all do, call it what i am, and yer heading for SRS!! See it for what it is.... i can feel and become anything i chose, at any moment, and its is real!!!

[Carin's Wife GG]

I've said that too. The gut-wrenching grief of the thought of loosing your life-partner is overwhelming. I would take a bullet for my SO. But in some respects, that would be the easy way out. For some - me included - to deny all expression of being transgendered would be to kill of a part of myself, and the part of me left over would be a miserable lump.

So compromise. For some it is easy, for some it is not. "You can only be yourself on Thursdays"! If that is close to meeting my needs, that works. If my core being needs more expression that that then what I hear is "I reject you on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

We can compromise on what to eat for dinner, what tv show to watch. We can compromise on buying a car or saving our money. It is not possible to compromise your core chemistry. You can surrender some of the expression. But it does feel like compromising your own self.

For the SO it feels like compromising her self to unequivocally accept and support that which she is not comfortable with some or much of the time.

That is the ultimate dilemma in a relationship. How do you compromise your sense of self, for your partner.

it breaks my heart knowing you feel you have to ever compromise who YOU are.


Louise.

[LilSissyStevie]

Sobe said: “Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.�

You answered your own questions but still had to ask them anyway. And, not surprisingly, you got different answers from each person based on their different experiences. So here's mine.

I don't appear to be a whole lot like your boyfriend in the sense that I will readily admit that I'm a fetish crossdresser. I don't want to be a real girl and I have no desire to go out in public dressed. I also love the fashions of the '40s and '50s. And yes, I dress to emulate my own idealized fantasy version of womanhood. So what? Shoot me! Perhaps it's because I got my first woody while looking through the Sears catalog when I was 3yo. Who knows? I don't care. I like those clothes so much I want to wear them myself. I also have other kinks and quirks for which I have no satisfactory explanation. I don't want to try to either. “Girls (even fake ones) just want to have fun.�

The bottom line is this: Human behavior and motivations are complex. By that I don't mean that they are merely complicated in the sense that you can figure it all out if you just put enough effort into it. No, I mean that they are complex in the same sense that stock prices and the weather are complex. No amount of information or analyzing will allow you to explain or predict them to any satisfaction. There are just too many variables in constant flux.

All you can do to make sense out of the world is draw “lines in the sand.� You set up your condition and make decisions beforehand about what to do if the condition is or is not met. You might decide to sell a stock when it falls below a certain price. When it happens, you carry out your decision—no regrets, no compromise, no looking back. Then you move on. You may decide that if your crossdresser decides to get breast implants then he has crossed your line in the sand and you're leaving. If that's the case, then do it. But please don't try to understand, predict or change their behavior or motivations. It's pointless and hopeless. In other words, “if you don't like it, leave.� Believe me I know how much that can hurt, but that's it in a nutshell.

[Satrana]

I'm in a weird place right now. It seems that we are most likely breaking up. Mostly because he is not willing to compromise at all. Not even a little. So... I think that's disrespectful. It's like me expecting him to give up CDing altogether. It's not nice on either side.

Maybe because there are some things which cannot be compromised. Would you ask a black person to be less black? Would you ask a Jew to behave like a Jew only part time etc......Your partner is TG, this is who he is, he cannot compromise. It is not a hobby nor is it a preference.

Maybe the issue would be clearer if CDs in general did not compromise. Many do, sometimes because they are not really transgendered, perhaps more a sexual fetish, so compromising is OK with them. Others compromise because they are desperate for acceptance so agree to conditions which they can't stick to and will break later.

Maybe if the CD community did not bend over so much and routinely compromise on crossdressing that causes them so much grief, guilt and shame then there would not be an expectation on your side that he should compromise on who he is. This indicates to me that you are dealing with crossdressing as a problem issue and not dealing with your SO as a person. What other group of people are expected to compromise on who they are?

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I don't get a "thrill" from being a woman (or dressing as one). I just feel natural. You'd rather be a man experiencing the thrill of doing something taboo, whereas I'd be perfectly content as a natal female without doubt.

I just feel natural too. And I'm not TS. There are some natal females on here who are not content to be so.


You also labor under the all-too-common misconception that being transsexual and being a crossdresser is just a difference of degree, as opposed to being fundamentally different conditions with dramatically different internal experiences and feelings.

I find it quite ironic that the people who consistently mistake me for TS are :heehee: TSs. So if you (as a group) can't tell the difference, how much difference is there? A lot less than you seem to think I'd say. No-one can read another's mind so there's no way you can know what the "internal experiences and feelings" of that person are.

[MJ]

[QUOTE]From what I can tell, most TS women never really identify as CDs before deciding that they are TS women. Some TS women are *extremely* macho before transition (it is part of their repress and deny coping mechanism). Some of them are just nice, sensitive seeming guys beforehand.
well i tend to agree with Kehleyr here



Also, a common coping mechanism for TS women in denial is to enter into a serious relationship with a heterosexual woman and marry her (and have kids, if they are young enough).

so true , i am sure that most feel that this would just go away and we can live " normal " lives

[kittypw GG]

I've said that too. The gut-wrenching grief of the thought of loosing your life-partner is overwhelming. I would take a bullet for my SO. But in some respects, that would be the easy way out. For some - me included - to deny all expression of being transgendered would be to kill of a part of myself, and the part of me left over would be a miserable lump.

So compromise. For some it is easy, for some it is not. "You can only be yourself on Thursdays"! If that is close to meeting my needs, that works. If my core being needs more expression that that then what I hear is "I reject you on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

We can compromise on what to eat for dinner, what tv show to watch. We can compromise on buying a car or saving our money. It is not possible to compromise your core chemistry. You can surrender some of the expression. But it does feel like compromising your own self.

For the SO it feels like compromising her self to unequivocally accept and support that which she is not comfortable with some or much of the time.

That is the ultimate dilemma in a relationship. How do you compromise your sense of self, for your partner.


Ok so here is the confusing part. We want to know if our partners are men, want to be women or are a combination of the two. If you are transexual I can understand the need to express your feminine self on a daily basis. If you are a combination of the two then you SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPRIMISE. The fact that Sobe's SO is UN-WILLING to comprimise is the problem. By this un-williningness he is sending the message that her feelings and opinion just don't matter and is making their relationship all about HIM. :Angry3: I believe that this is what she is upset about and what is going to destroy their relationship.

Does Sobe have to deny herself everyday of the week?????? Does Leah B get full rein of everything just because he is confused and can't see past his own desire's to see things clearly???

Sorry don't buy this argument. It is a two way street. I want to live my life the way I want to also but I gave up some of that control when I got married. THAT IS JUST LIFE!!! Kitty

[Satrana]

By this un-williningness he is sending the message that her feelings and opinion just don't matter and is making their relationship all about HIM.

That would be true if he did not compromise on any subject, which I very much doubt is the case. Just because there is one subject which cannot be compromised does not make the whole relationship about him.

If he is TG then how do you compromise this? He cannot switch it on and off. Even when he is in drab Sobe's SO can still be thinking and behaving as TG. It would be like suggesting that you should only be a part-time woman. How could you achieve that if all you only feel yourself to be a woman and nothing else?

[Leah B]

I hear sometimes about compromises some transies make with their partners that I just know I couldn't do without suffering. Sometimes posts are pointed out to me where the trans partner gives something up "for the sake of his wife," and I immediately think one of two things: Either they are giving up something that is easy for them to give up, or they are consenting to an inescapable, oppressive malaise. There is nobody I love enough, or will ever love enough, to consent to that. If something is easy for me, or even if it's tough but tolerable, I can compromise on it. (I talked to Sobe, and she said she wouldn't ask me to compromise on anything except for these cases.)

Unfortunatly, the "big deals" are often the same for me as they are for Sobe. I certainly don't want Sobe to suffer any sort of malaise, but I don't want to either. So what seems like a "if you don't like it, you can leave" is really more like "If you don't like it, you SHOULD leave" because with some things is no middle ground, and we're both better off with a fresh chance for happiness. We don't have kids, or a shared mortgage, or any number of other things that make us inextricably bound.

And when I'm reluctant to slow things down so Sobe can catch up, it's partly because I don't want to suffer in the time being (which for some issues, could be years or possibly never), and partly because time will only make it harder if we have to break up. Also, while Sobe resents being nagged about someting I'm waiting on, from my perspective, I'm waiting on something that may not ever come if I don't speak up, and each day she spends coming to terms with it is a week I spend waiting for it.


Now, on to the questions:
If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

For some, it IS just clothes, so they do need them. For me, the clothes are expressive, just like my male clothes. I certainly CAN feel fem without them, and often do, but I like them. And at one point, they were necessary for me to feel fem.

Gender is a social construct. Every single person we meet is immediately put into a box "Male" or "female," often without you ever really having to think about it. How we treat people is then dramatically influenced by this. When I'm at home alone, I'm not male or female. I'm just me. I may identify as a guy, but "guy" doesn't mean anything alone.

But when you've spent 26 years thinking of yourself as male, it's not easy to change your own mind. A reflected image in a mirror goes a long way toward dispelling our illusions about ourselves. It sounds strange, but seeing yourself through the eyes of someone else helps a lot.


How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside?

Strangers can certainly help validate how we feel about ourselves. Really, it isn't about what strangers think of us, it's finding where we fit in in the world. I can tell myself a woman all I want, but if all I get "Hey, man!" where does it leave me? I want to be put into the female box, and be treated accordingly. Sobe has told me she needs me to be her man, and I don't expect her to change this. I could never be a woman to her, and I need to be a woman socially as well as mentally.


Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman

We're emulating what we see and what we like and admire. Growing up as boys, this is radically edifferent than what women see and admire.

And I really really hate the fact that I didn't figure this out as a teen. Teen fashions are the best! All the wild experimentation, the color, glitter, super-femme stuff. You've been there and done that, I haven't. I'm lucky I figured this out at 26. The twenties and thirties are good too, even if they are relatively sober.

I probably wont ever go out dressed like a teen would. I just want to be a woman out there, not be a freak on top of that.

ANd Sobe, aren't you the one who has a 50s fashion site bookmarked? The fifties was like the best era for women's fashion! On this I know we agree.


Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

Good point! But for now, I'd rather pass. I really, really, want to pass, and in jeans and an androgynous top, I'm a dude in tight pants. Or perhaps not.

I'd like to note though that I never said I would prefer the andrgynous look to exclusion. I definitely prefer it for casual times, but I love the femmy look too. Frankly, I'd like to be feminine no matter what I wear.


I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in?

As far as gender goes, the decades haven't changed much for men. Seriously, how much have men's roles changed since the 50s? The 1850s? A little, but women have come a looooong way.

Anyway, it's not liking pink that makes men have gender issues, it's what makes them realize that they do. There are plenty of men who cook and sew and aren't trans, but these activities don't help them realize anything, because there's nothing to realize.


The fact that Sobe's SO is UN-WILLING to comprimise is the problem. By this un-williningness he is sending the message that her feelings and opinion just don't matter and is making their relationship all about HIM.

When Sobe says I don't compromise, she is wrong. I do compromise. Sometimes too much, which lands me in trouble because I end up backing out. From her end it looks like I can't keep my end of the deal, but I'm doing plenty of compromise, kitty.

[ubokvt]

You raised a lot of good questions here but for now I will try my view/experience on just one


My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious

The truth is we are all human. We all have a vary wide range of feelings and emotions, and we like/need to both express, and experience, those feelings, Because we are social creatures most of that expresion and experience has to occure in a social setting, with other people. If this were a perfect world this wouldn't be a problem, but its not. I our foolishness we labled many of the feelings and expressions boy, girl, appropriate, not appropriate. And so if you need a specific respose it may not be avaialbe in you given gender. A poor example, but it should give you an idea I, a male, feel hurt by others, I want to express that, and receive comfort. If I cry, an inappropriate expression for a male, I will not receive comfort, only censure for being too emotional. If I use anger, I may get support/recognition as a strong male, but not comfort. To get comfort I have to be female. This label and societies adherence to the labels make one believe the only way to get the female response is to be female. And its not CDer doing it its the people around them that decide the response the CDer will get. The CDer is just trying to conform to gender norms for acceptance and response to displayed feelings by society.

[Carin's Wife GG]

Ok so here is the confusing part. We want to know if our partners are men, want to be women or are a combination of the two. If you are transexual I can understand the need to express your feminine self on a daily basis. If you are a combination of the two then you SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPRIMISE. The fact that Sobe's SO is UN-WILLING to comprimise is the problem. By this un-williningness he is sending the message that her feelings and opinion just don't matter and is making their relationship all about HIM. :Angry3: I believe that this is what she is upset about and what is going to destroy their relationship.

Does Sobe have to deny herself everyday of the week?????? Does Leah B get full rein of everything just because he is confused and can't see past his own desire's to see things clearly???

Sorry don't buy this argument. It is a two way street. I want to live my life the way I want to also but I gave up some of that control when I got married. THAT IS JUST LIFE!!! Kitty

is just HARD! It is the ultimate question in marriages like ours. How far is too far? What compromises can each person make without feeling that they are compromising themselves to a place of misery? I don't know the answers, I just now that trying to find out is beyond difficult.


Louise.

[Sheri 4242]

Sobe,

First a few questions your way: what is the willingness, or lack thereof, on both sides regarding some level of compromise??? I've always liked your posts, so don't take this a personal afront to you. That said, I am, in the end, left wondering if your SO is totally unwilling to compromise -- and I am left wondering about your level of willingness to compromise? Relationships are about balance! If you are willing to compromise and your SO isn't, then you are at a dead end! Conversely, if you aren't willing to compromise and your SO isn't either, then it is same results: dead end!

I do understand where Louise is coming from when she says . . .

it breaks my heart knowing you feel you have to ever compromise who YOU are.

However, that said, often in life, depending on the stakes, compromise can be appropriate if it is in healthy proportions!!! My wife and I reached a point several years ago where practically all of the boundaries had been removed. Yet, a few minor ones remained. She realizes who and what I am, and she knows she cannot ask me to be otherwise b/c such would be tantamount to asking me not to be at all!!! She had also grown in acceptence -- to the point of realizing that much of what initially attracted her to me was because of who and what I am. But, just like with any area of life with a loved one, there are some very minor points where love itself dictates that compromise is in the best interest of the corporate entity!!!


Does Sobe have to deny herself everyday of the week?????? Does Leah B get full rein of everything just because he is confused and can't see past his own desire's to see things clearly??? Sorry don't buy this argument. It is a two way street. I want to live my life the way I want to also but I gave up some of that control when I got married. THAT IS JUST LIFE!!! Kitty

If Sobe gets nothing of what she wants and her SO gets all of what he wants and refuses to seek marital balance, then that is just purely selfish -- it is not a healthy relationship!!! Conversely, if Sobe is wiling to establish healthy boundaries and really work on marital balance -- and is willing to see if those boundaries can be moved with time as understanding and acceptance grow, then her SO is extremely fortunate and should work with her. To do otherwise (by the SO) would be the epitome of selfishness!!!


Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

The clothes are, IMHO, very important to the mtf heterosexual crossdresser -- at least the majority of them. The clothes are, after all, to whatever extent each CDer dresses, the outward and visible expression of the femme side of a dichotomous personna.


My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

Just my opinion, but let me answer this two ways. First, your SO doesn't "need" to go out to be treated like a woman. Second, the first part said, going out is an extremely "freeing" experience!!!!!!! It is difficult to explain, but there is an element of validation combined with an extraordinary sense of being who you are "out in the world." Here, though, is where appropriate boundaries come into play, realizing that boundaries are moved with time and patience. Fourteen years ago, my wife would NEVER have imagined, much less agreed to, a wedding (a vow renewal ceremony) with me as the bride. She would have never agreed to the two of us standing on "'The'Las Vegas Strip" having photographic portraits taken, with me in a very feminine wedding gown, while thousands upon thousands of onlookers passed by. Yet, with time, it became her idea that we do this earlier this year -- and it was a sweet and meaningful service beyond my greatest of possible dreams!!!!!!! You cannot approach CDing with a selfish attitude!!! It is a growth thing that, if there is love, will happen given nurture, time, education, edification, and TLC!!!!!!!


What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives?

For the most part I think you find this attitude in CDers who've reached a certain point in life, are not being able to express their femme side with the most important person in their life, and want to let their femme personna have some freedom; for right or wrong, they've been closeted for too long, and in the main, usually such is found where they have an SO who won't even begin to study what's what and see if they might meet them somewhere in the middle. I am not saying the individual CDer has lived openly regarding their CDing with their SO -- they well may have deceived their SO, which is absolutelywrong -- just that they have reached a point where life is starting to count down and they are saying, "no more -- I am who I am."


Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong!

There are several things to be addressed within this last statement. First, you are right that often CDers are not emulating real women but rather an idealization of what is in their head. That image came from somewhere, and in my opinion, it came from past influences. A generalization is "they wear pantyhose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to." Pantyhose wouldn't be as popular as they are if nobody wore them. GG's wearing them is usually associated with the season (and locale). Plus, many GG's wear thigh highs instead of pantyhose when hosiery is needed -- and for good reason, especially the comfort factor. My wife would tell you that what she see CDers wearing that GG's get out of at the first opportunity are bras. But, she understands that GG's wear bras for specific reasons during the day and when she comes home and takes her's off asap, that this is usually the exact same time that I get into a bra.

I have commented several times before why I think so many CDers wear clothes that are "too young" for them. It is basically a psychological mud bog: when dressing became an extraordinarily strong influence, many CDers couldn't really dress much (if any at all, save the occassional underdressing). So, the CDer is stuck at that barrier (usually the late teen/early 20's "coed" age group) and when they become bolder (or get a green light to dress), that's where they head. This is where a supportive, patient SO can play such an important role in their CDers life!!! I know that my wife has worked diligently at teaching me how to dress in a more age-appopriate manner. I know it has been frustrating for her, but she has finally started getting through and is teaching me that age-appropriate clothing can be sexy and chic -- the only difference from what I used to wear being I can actually sit down without anybody knowing the color of my panties. ( :lol2: )


Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself.

I'm not certain that this makes sense. I was under the distinct impression that "androgynous" was, more or less, neutral -- or perhaps better said, "between the two."
In archaic use, it meant a hermaphrodite, In modern ue, it means, "characteristics of both sexes." This comes from the word's Greek origin of "andros" = man and "gyne" = "woman." (Unfortunately many dictionaries are sorely lacking in fully explaining this.) All that said and definitional differences aside, it sounds like what you are really saying is that your SO wants an appearance that is neutral-but-leaning-towards-the-feminine." Could this be an attempt to reach some level of gender appearance satisfaction? If so, doesn't this give you a hint that what makes your SO who and what he is, is desperately attempting to find a way of expression?!!!


I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

No, preferring cooking over sports is a non-issue when it comes to gender identity. And, what one plays with as a child is, likewise, a non-issue. I'm not sure what your point is, anyway. I have always loved to play baseball, football, and tennis; I've always been an avid hunter. Conversely, I loved pink, high heels, barbies, and cheerleading. Too much emphasis is put on what young males like and don't like to play with and/or do!!! Let's face one fact, though: a girl that likes to play baseball, climb trees, etc. is called a tomboy and society says there is nothing wrong with that. BUT, let the boy who likes to play with Barbie openly express this and it is off to the shrink to fix that kid's thinking!!!


Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

I hope in some manner or fashion I have assisted your understanding.

As Carin told you . . .

I think this is a matter of perspective. The CD is inside a room looking out the window at the beautiful ladies outside passing by. He wants to be out there and feel the same sensations that they do. For that he needs to put on the clothes, because without the clothes he believes that he won't know what it feels like to be a lady on the outside. His perspective as he goes out the door is that he is the same person, just with some necessary accessories (clothing). His perspective is that he is the same person physically and mentally. He does does not see himself differently, because he is looking out from inside his own mind. The SO can not see this perspective. She is a woman amongst women

It is abstract vs. reality -- and it isn't black or white, but somewhere on the grayscale between the two (and there are 256 shades of gray between the two).

[Desiree2bababe]

See relies in pink

PREFACE:
Hi! Now, I know people say how you shouldn't seek answers to the 'why' when it comes to CDing or TGs, but, I still have some questions.

Yes, I already know that everyone is different and that each person has a different experience.
--------------------

Alright. I have known about my boyfriend, Leah B, being a crossdresser for a little over a year. He only started actually doing anything with it last May.

Over the course of the last couple of months, we've talked a lot about what it is to be a cross dresser and transgendered. I've also heard a lot of things on these boards. Some of it I totally get, other stuff, I don't.

Here's the things I don't get, so that some of you might be able to educate me:

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them. It's definitely more than clothes, least for me and I started out at the age of 4 wearing mother's heels. May start out with the mere touch of feminine things but it does progress. For me, it is being a woman in all aspects. From the smell of a woman, the ritual of makeup, dressing, hair, nails, and of course attraction of the sexes.

- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.This is a definite must for me. I had to be seen, to be called "hun", to be cat whistled. And the funny part is, it had to be by strangers. God forbid if someone who knew me saw. However, I may have had a different attitude if I'd started out with an SO so accepting as you.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."I've never been comfortable with my transvestism. Wish I could. I'm a very manly man outside of my skirts and heels. I also like my male personna, which is probably the cause of all my difficulties with cross dressing over the years. When I met my wife I'd heard conversations she'd had with girlfriends how she loved female impersonators. I took that for possible acceptance of my cd'ing. I courted her and eventually shared my passion. She like you could not understand the need if I actually did not do it to attract men. Once she accepted me, we married and she found the extent of my desires. Never could understand the need for so many clothes, so much makeup, jewerly, etc. And she would not stand for me pubicly showing my other side. So back in the closet I went, hotels, late work nights became times to dress. It was like I was living back at home with my parents. I know my secret lifestyle was unfair to her but for some unknown reason I felt compelled. Once we had children, I kept it all inside and it gradually fainted away. It's still on my mind, very much so. I wish I could fit into that size 12 dress again and strut my stuff, ah but alas age has sucummbed my desire.

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.I could only have hoped for compromise. Albeit Halloween, it was taboo and still is. But she does have a say, she married a man, not a woman and I love her enough to be that man and keep my desires as dreams now.

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.You hit this one on the head. I believe we all want to be that Cosmo model.

- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.I love all things manly and also all things womanly. Go figure. and I do cook but I thing cooking is a man's thing anyway.I think those who are male and love only things fem lean towards the trannsexual side of things rather than mere transvestism.

------

Okay, I'm done. I realize that I can sometimes be abrasive in the language I choose, and I am sorry in advance for offending anyone. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe

[sobe1ove GG]

I had a bunch of replies but then my computer crashed and I lost all of my hard work.

I'll do it again later, though, so expect to hear from me soon.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

What does this have to do with whether or not a CD that *doesn't* want to be female is similar to a TS woman?

You need to think about it.


I've never told anyone that they were TS. I've never told anyone that they weren't.

I never suggested otherwise.


However, a lot of what gets posted here is *not* suggestive to me of being from a TS. Someone saying that they'd rather be male than female, so that they can enjoy the "thrill" of breaking taboos while wearing women's clothing, doesn't sound much like a transsexual to me (assuming that they are being honest about their feelings, which I have no reason to doubt).

Agreed.


If you are so certain that you are not TS, then that doesn't sound like much of a personal argument in favor of the two categories as being indistinguishable, either.

Let me use height as an analogy. I hope you'll agree that people come in a range of heights.. I'm 5ft 8 (actually I might be slightly shorter now as I haven't measured myself for donkey's years but that's not the point). That makes me taller than some but shorter than others. It does not infer that that there's a huge gap in height amongst the population, say in the 5ft 10 to 6ft 4 range and that everybody's either 5ft 10 or under or 6ft 4 or over. It's a continuem. So is gender identity. Where ever you and I are on the gender continuem, there are people in between. Draw a line anywhere you like to seperate yourself from the majority of trans folk if you like but I can guarantee that somewhere there's someone who will confound whatever metrics you used to decide the position of that line. None of which is probably of any help to the OP.

[Cara Allen]

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

You're right, Sobe. Anyone who says it's just clothes is in denial, dear. It's a gender condition, not a fetish.


- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

What you think is VERY important. You are his compass, and probably the main thing that keeps him from loosing it completely. All of this point has to do with acceptance. If other accept you as who you outwardly appear to be, then the outside matches the inside, and all is well. Often, dressing in the house is not enough, but for many, it is. Depends.


- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.

Compromising transgenderism is like compromising the core of your personality. Thjere is a big difference between changing careers, which you can choose to do, and changing the core of your personality, which you cannot do.

You might find it easier to understand if one day you were not allowed to express yourself as female. Only work shirts, levis and work boots. No long hair, no makeup, no pierced earrings, in fact no earrings at all.

Now, take that one step further... suddenly, you are no longer female. You find yourself a male, but you are still female inside. Try and consider what that would be like... even then, you only get an imagining. All of the things that you love about yourself, you femininity... bearing children, pride in your body, inner happiness, GONE.

This is not due to upbringing, or preference. It is a core psychological issue. You could no more get him to compromise this than you could get your dog to walk on his hind legs for more than a few steps. We can try, but it is not our nature. The degree of the condition has everything to do with the degree of adaptability. Some can compromise, some can't. There is a big difference between "can't" and "won't."


- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

CD's have very little to gravitate to, when it comes to being female. They have no hips, no breasts, no soft skin, no smooth legs, facial structure is likely off because of predominant eye brow ridges, square jaws, adams apple, large upper frame, deep voice...many of us, because of society cannot grow hair or pierce our ears. You assume that most of what you are is learned. I insist that makeup, pretty clothing, looking or feeling attractive is feminine because it is a demonstration of female. Men don't get it that women dress sexily because it is fun, not because they want to broadcast to males that they are available. (CD's do... at least many of us...) It's all part of projecting what it is to be female.

With CD's, there is very little to overcome that which is overwhelmingly projecting male. All there is, is what we can "put on" to overcome or hide maleness. Panty hose, feminine undergarments, wigs, makeup, all help overcome the overwhelming evidence that we are not what we are supposed to be.... They are also talismen of femininity. Like a crusifix to a Christian, it represents what being female is. All of these things are "off limits" to males. We endear these things because it helps us cross over, helps us to "be right and fix what we know is wrong with ourselves." The need to project female to some degree, depending on the individual, is very strong.

Add to this the idea that TG's have not been alloowed to develop emotionally. Many CD's are stuck in a pre adolscent limbo. All the things that you got to do when you werew a teenager... the experimenting with clothes, finding your style.... When they finally "get out of the cage" they have lots of caching up to do. They start by being the adolescents they were never allowed to be. In effect, every time you see a TG in a mini skirt, you see a teenager who has not yet caught up with her physical age. (sorry girls. My opinion.)


- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

See above. If it was OK with society, we might be pleased with a pair of


- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion. Feel free to tell me your side of these issues so that I can better understand what it means to be an MTF CD/TG/TS and so on.

Thanks!

Sobe


These things are not, in themselves milestones of transgenderism. They are more like symptoms. Each thing, in itself, is nothing, but taken together, probably indicates alot. What makes a TG a TG is not that pink is a pretty color, or that Barbies are fun. What makes a TG is the way we think, and who we are inside.

There was a tv show about a little boy who had a circumsision gone bad, and his penis was gone. He's pretty famous, because a Doctor Money thought it best that he be raised a girl. He was, from a very early age. When he bacame old enough, he rebelled, and pursued a male path. I think most of your problem stems from the confusion about exactly what we are. We are not completely male in the head. There are 5 different axes that determine what we are as people... emotional, mental, physical logical, sexual. TG's are crisscrossed in some or most of these axes. If it were known, many, many people are. We exhibit these traits because we are what we are, and nothing can effect that, or fix that. No amount of compromise, deal making, therapy, behavior modification, can "fix" it. It is not to be fixed. We are all part of a broader "human condition" than is currently justbeginning to be recognized. If some of us can compromise, it has more to do with the degree of variance from the "norm" or the number of Axes that are affected. Some of us, despite how much we try, cannot compromise without becoming psychologically injured.

What you are after is for the boys to put away their toys when playtime is over. the problem is that we are not playing, we are trying to live out our lives the way that God made us.

Many years ago, people with varing psychological conditions or mind sets were at first considered posessed, then in later years placed in institutions... things like altzheimers, sczophrenia, bi-polar disorder, epilepsy, homosexuality, CP, Downs, etc.,etc. These are recognized these days as conditions that are either amenable to medication, or accepted as perfectly admissable and acceptable in society. Because we TG's have been so effective at hiding ourselves from shame and functioned in society despite our inability to fit in, we are considered funny and deviant. We are neither. We are The Way Things Are. Your inability to accept this or minimize is understandable. Your not fully understanding what it is to be like us is regretable. Your wanting to learn is commendable.

Don't blame him/her! (S)He tried to be a good citizen. Get married, have kids, deny what he cannot deny. He fell in love because you were special, and love has no boundaries. When the condition would not let go, anymore than you can change your eye color by choice, he is accused of being dishonest or manipulative, or disloyal. He was just doing what he was told, and the alternative was frightening, and would render him a social outcast.

Try and walk in his/her heels for a mile before you judge?

Thanks for listening.

[Sheri 4242]

I hear sometimes about compromises some transies make with their partners that I just know I couldn't do without suffering. Sometimes posts are pointed out to me where the trans partner gives something up "for the sake of his wife," and I immediately think one of two things: Either they are giving up something that is easy for them to give up, or they are consenting to an inescapable, oppressive malaise.

From my post (a few above this one) I gave Sobe some food for thought. Now, I'd like to suggest some things to you.

Suffering? This is just my opinion, but marriage is balance and that requires compromises and boundaries that get moved with time. If you are inflexible and hold forth that it is all to be the way you want right now, then there are other options than the two you are giving. My wife is as accepting as they come -- which, if you've read some of my posts about some of the things we've done, you might know -- but it took time to get there -- time, patience, and understanding as one or the other of us grew. I don't think that is suffering, but rather healthy respect and love as growth allows boundaries to be moved or removed. You don't sound willing to accept anything less than what you want -- want right now!


There is nobody I love enough, or will ever love enough, to consent to that. If something is easy for me, or even if it's tough but tolerable, I can compromise on it. (I talked to Sobe, and she said she wouldn't ask me to compromise on anything except for these cases.)

Unfortunatly, the "big deals" are often the same for me as they are for Sobe. I certainly don't want Sobe to suffer any sort of malaise, but I don't want to either. So what seems like a "if you don't like it, you can leave" is really more like "If you don't like it, you SHOULD leave" because with some things is no middle ground, and we're both better off with a fresh chance for happiness. We don't have kids, or a shared mortgage, or any number of other things that make us inextricably bound.

And when I'm reluctant to slow things down so Sobe can catch up, it's partly because I don't want to suffer in the time being (which for some issues, could be years or possibly never), and partly because time will only make it harder if we have to break up. Also, while Sobe resents being nagged about someting I'm waiting on, from my perspective, I'm waiting on something that may not ever come if I don't speak up, and each day she spends coming to terms with it is a week I spend waiting for it.

Many (most) GG's would have already told you to not let the door hit you in the rear with this attitude. Maybe I'm wrong, but what you say comes across as "take no prisoners." It is like "this is what I want and what she wants is going to take a back seat b/c I don't want to suffer."

I won't go into the specific other issues as I have addressed them above. I have given opinions that, for the overwhelming majority, are on your side! That said, it doesn't sound like the two of you have much of a chance! I'm trying to not point fingers, but I will note with all due respect that you don't come across as one who would work at your relationship first. I can't say how true Sobe is to gaining the acceptance you want and need. I do get the sense that any inconvenience to your agenda is unacceptable to you. If that is the case, so be it -- it IS your life. But, I will tell you that of those of us who have loving and accepting wives, I'd be willing to wager that 99.9% of us had to be willing to work at it -- with patience. Maybe you should keep looking b/c Sobe seems light years away from what you want!!! That's okay -- Sobe must be Sobe and you must be you!!! In the main, I don't see any of the major requsite components necessary for a happy and vibrant marriage. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it!!!

My best to you both!!!

[DonnaT]

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.
One problem is not knowing exactly it is that causes us to need to CD. There is some urge deep within that was triggered the first time we wore something designed for a woman. For me it was a nightie. And when I put it on, it just felt "right".

Note that when we fall in love, and "know" that this is the right person for us. someone to spend the rest of our life with. We don't know why we feel this way, we just know it's right. Trying to put into words what we know is right can be quite difficult, if not impossible. But when asked to, we make an attempt.

This is what occurs when someone says it's just the clothes. Many of us who have given this deep thought know it's not just the clothes. The clothes are a relief. Like aspirin relieves a headache. Like water relieves our thirst.

My wife asked, if it's just the clothes, why the need for a wig and makeup. I told her that we are all not the same, and I can be perfectly happy with a skirt and fem top, sans makeup and wig. She said, "Not with me you won't." Thus she answered her own question as to why some need the whole look.

So, basically it comes down to our level of being transgendered, or bi-gendered as some prefer. There is a need too complicated to explain, much less fully comprehend. Where this need comes from is anyone's guess. But the clothes and/or overall appearance for many of us is the aspirin that relieves this need.


- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.
I think the problem here is that Leah hasn't been out. She's read other trans folks making similar comments. So, she's really not sure what she needs, but knows she needs something, and since others have expressed a need to be treated as a woman, then maybe she is parroting this need.

Maybe.

I need to go out. I go out fully enfemme, because my wife prefers I not be seen as a guy in a dress. So, maybe Leah doesn't want to be seen as a guy in a dress. For me, I could care less if I'm seen as a guy in a dress.

The thing in, I need to go out. Why? To be totally free. To not be suppressed by what society thinks I should wear. Maybe that's the reason. Maybe that's just my justification for wanting to go out. Maybe it's because growing up I knew that it was acceptable to be out. Accordingly, I was locked in a closet. Now the closet is unlocked. Do I make the closet as big as the house, or do I make it as big as the world?

I don't hate my male clothes. I don't hate looking like a guy. But there is still a need to go out, whether it's just in a skirt, or fully enfemme.

Note I keep saying need. IMO this is different from want.

And needs are just hard to explain. At least harder to explain than wants.

Yes, I am still trans. A CD. Whether I'm seen by anyone else or not.

But being human, don't we need to be around other humans? Why is that?

Maybe because we are social creatures. Most of us aren't hermits.

And being trans means we have a male self and a female self all rolled into one. Is it fair to the female self to deny it the social interaction it also needs? Can we truly be whole we we deny an innate part of who we are?


- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

Let's say my boyfriend wanted to make a huge change that would affect our relationship in a large way forever. And let's say that it had nothing to do with his gender identity. I suppose only THEN would I, and other GGs have a say. I don't understand how that can be okay. Don't forget that it's a partnership. And I'm not saying that you should have to give up CDing. I will never say that is a good thing. Just COMPROMISE.
Compromise is a part of any relationship, because we are all different. Most of the things we compromise on, however, are our wants.

I want a new car. She wants an SUV. I want a fast sporty car. Neither of us needs either one. We can always say we need a certain type car, but our life will not be affected adversely by compromising on the car. Maybe neither of us will be happy with the compromise, but our health, mentally and/or physically, will not be affected by the choice.

I compromised with my wife for many many years regarding my need to CD, and need to go out. It worked, for the most part. But then there came a time when the compromise didn't work. so we worked out another compromise. Now I go out once a month, as the need hits me.

This usually entails going down to a club in Richmond. My wife has been with me to this club twice. She had a good time there, but refuses to go out with me anymore. There is a TG night once a month. This past weekend was one of those months. Last month I didn't go, since she didn't want me to. This time she didn't want me to again. I've been through this before, and knew where this was headed. That is, no more compromise, I don't want you going out, period. I already compromise by not going out at other times.

So, I went.

Was that selfish? Not to me. Even though not going wouldn't have affected me mentally/physically, eventually it would. When I couldn't say. But I've been through it before. Do I hold off until I crack, then say f***it, and get dressed and go out locally? Really not a good idea.

So, compromise should be attempted. If it works it works. You can't know if it will work for you until you try. Just flat out refusing to even try to compromise is selfish.

There is a time, however, when compromise simply doesn't work. That's when there are only two choices.

For example, Leah wants to go out enfemme, you apparently don't want that to happen. Given only those two choices, how can there be compromise?

Compromise in this case can be, for example, based on where she goes. Or whether she goes out with you or not. Or how often she goes out. Compromise on her part is not going out anytime she want, or without you, or limiting herself to where she goes.


- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

You're right. IMO. I believe people are just reading these things into the fact they are trans. As symptoms instead of just normal likes and dislikes. Again, this is probably due the fact that being trans is so hard to explain and understand.

[Sheri 4242]

Sobe and Leah,

Jenni'sGirl GG made a very heartfelt post that spoke so very, very much about weathering a marital storm, in re crossdressing, and coming through it with a stronger and more vibrant marriage!!! The thread was entitled, "Hello there, it has been a long, long time."

One of the single-most significant posts to that thread was made by Satrana, who said, in part . . .

What I really liked about your story is your balanced approach to life and your understanding of how your actions affect your SO. That is real empathy in motion, seeing past the clothes and understanding the hurt that CDs feel. That is a step further than most are prepared to go. Well done

Not to put words in Satrana's mouth, but IMHO, she saw how both parties evolved!!! Satrana also said . . .

It is a wonderful story to hear that both of you wanted to carry on when facing a break-up. That is real commitment and you should be commended for it.

Both of you, IMO, need to ask yourselves what are your individual commitment levels -- what are your empathy levels?!!! Are you both wiling to seek balance and accept boundaries that will evolve with time??? It is a two-way street, but you both have to agree -- not unyieldingly demand but agree -- on your individual tolerances, where you each can commit and where you can't, and if you each are willing to work for the relationship, accepting the snags and snares that come with the territory.

[RobertaFermina]

first of all I say "psuedo(?)-feminine" with respect to my appreciation and expression of the feminine. I intent to be humble, not sarcastic.



Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

It isn't just clothes for me. Its is the interactivity I experience from my psuedo(?)-feminine persona that shifts my experience to a more happy and powerful place, eases me and expands my consciousness.



- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

Precisely as I said. It is not what people think, it is how they interact with me, and how I interact with them, and how I interact with my ideas about people and spaces from my psuedo(?)-feminine perspectives is such a strong draw.

Interacting from a more (psuedo(?))feminine place brings on a different set of emotional and functional perspectives and experiences. It begins to give real life and meaning, insight and habit, where the was previously only longing, imagination, and hunger. Carrying on human activities "in crossdress" makes it real.

It is also a relief, and at times, and escape from dealing with life from my basic-masculinish-EnHomme-persona.



- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises.[snip]

I don't have an SO. I do have a live-in daughter and granddaughter, and the daughter thinks I'm an addictive, obsessive jerk that is endangering the development of my granddaughter around gender issues.

I ache and resent the compromises I make with her to limit crossdressing in MY OWN HOME. I feel crossdressing is "The next thing, the present thing" in my soul's development. Whether it proves to be a transitional stage to a more balanced psyche, or to a new gender assignment, or whatever, I feel the truth and rightness, beauty, and channeling of Love that is opened up through my life as Roberta.

It is like I saw the burning bush and this is what it told me to do. Speaking for myself, it is my way or the highway. The only reason I moderate my crossdressing around the home is that my commitment to support my daughter through college predates my expansion into crossdressing. That said, I'm feeling resentment in having to contain my self-expression...I'm really sad and angry about getting negative judgement...getting anything less than celebration and sharing of joy I have in CDing hurts.

It feels like anything less than wholehearted support for my CDing is a selfishness on my daughter's part.

I can see that my joy means so much to me, that I seldom consider how difficult it is for her to deal with the idea of her Masculine Role Model showing up as a CrossDresser.

I feel feed deeply in a good way, and sometimes the goodness is so good, I ASSUME that everyone else should get it.

I don't want to compromise. I want to fully experience this and move on. Compromising feels like retarding and perverting this process, which even I do not understand.

God how I wish my daughter were independent and I could be free of this friction !




- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

I agree that I am mirroring my accumulated experience of women whom I respect and women whom I desire...I don't have any intention, presently, to emulate women I neither respect nor desire.

I have accumulated my concept of womenhood as a man. I do get lots of insights directly from women, though. Especially since many women get their ideas about womanhood from the same channels as I did...though they were using a different research instrument...a more typically feminine brain/being.

I think it is reasonable to suggest my expression of womanhood is strongly influenced by stereotype and idiosyncratic fascination.

A big part of this is that I have to choose a picture and then emulate it. I cannot wear just anything and create that appearance of a woman. Women are a feminine canvas, and can paint anything or nothing onto it, and remain feminine beings. I paint a feminine picture (to the best of my ability, understanding, and stereotyped/peculiar skewed genius) upon a typically masculine, male canvas. So the image of womanhood I project must by nature of the intention and act of emulation be stilted subset of the full range of feminine self-expression.




- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

Not a problem. When your guy wants to make that form of androgynous expression, he will. I think about this too. However, I am presently so entralled and gratified by playing in the intentionally psuedo(?)-feminine/womanly/girly zone of expression and interactivity, that moving into the androgynous zone can wait.

One of my possible futures is thanking creation for my feminine adventures, and recrafting my base persona in a more fluid range between masculine and psuedo(?)-feminine...that is - androgynous. Yet, like I said...it can wait. I'm right where spirit calls me to be.



[snip]So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

Can't agree more. This idea that femininity interferes with or diminishes the masculinity within a person, or the potential for it is without foundation.

The seed of consciousness that this might be so grows from an aversion to masculinity, and projecting that onto the belief that selection of gender-energy is a zero sum game. That is, it is a manifestation of phobia, suggestibility, or slavish devotion to misinformation.

I participated a Roberta in my Men's Organization's 10 Year Anniversary Gathering this past weekend. Some men were startled, though no one questioned my masculine credentials, and I got great feedback about how my psuedo(?)-feminine energy and experience brought great pleasure, stimulation, and education to the weekend. Best of Both Worlds is the interweaving of all gender-energies (not excluding that there may be other gender-energies than masculine and feminine).




Thanks!

Sobe

You are welcome....thanks for asking directly for what you want !


:rose: Roberta :rose:

[BarbaraTalbot]

Chantelle's Post resonated with me. I can sort of see him being the "model" or type" of crossdresser I am.

Kehleyr's on the other end of that spectrum struck me also, not because I share those feelings but because I don't. I also think that she has a good point about many of the inconsistencies I see in many Crossdresser's as they contemplate possible connection to Gender Identity Issues to their dressing. It is inconsistent with Transsexulism if one is and isn't a gender at any particular time or circumstances.

Now who noticed what I did there?

I purposely used different gender pronouns for the two extremes, and I hope neither is offended by my affixing labels for the moment. I think its important in terms of showing respect to others on here that we use pronouns most likely to be consistant with how that person is presenting, but that is based on appearance. I accept the pronoun of she for Barbara in the spirit it is intended, not as a label of my gender, but as a sign of respect for my freedom to choose this for myself.

Some are freeing the woman within, some guys like panties, others could care less about the panties but like what the skirt does to their natural cooling systems. Many many of us though have really no idea. Especially at first. Few of us are new to wearing women's clothes, but the wide range of possible why's on the menu is overwhelming.

I think its good and healthy and constructive for a CD to look at the girl in the mirror and wonder about these things. Personally, I think that even with my remarkable skill at self-deception and denial, that if I were as many have described it feeling trapped in the wrong body, "she" would be SCREAMING to get out. But thats me. On that basis it would be either one or the other or for all. Like either you are transsexual in every way, all the time and drab is really crossdressing against your own gender, or you are a purely fetish motivated crossdresser. (Or you are one of those and confusing yourself into the opposite category.)

My feeling is if you are playing the percentages, that if you have no idea which you would label yourself if only given the two choices, then I say the crossdresser is more abundant than the truly transsexual.

The reality is everyone has varying degrees of masculine and feminine traits and the sum of these is who we are. Who we is worth trying to find out but for many is not clear.

Back (finally) to the point of the thread as I see it is the essential question, "What phylum, genus and specie are you married to?"

You have no reliable way to tell.

He/she probably doesn't know either for sure. It sounds like he is in the process of sorting that out. It takes time and is of necessity stressful on the CD and generally (and often more so) stressful on the SO.

I wish you peace, and understanding between you that there not be ultimata given or resented till you can each make the decisions that benefit you each individually, and then as a couple. Best wishes.

[Fab Karen]

Here's the things I don't get, so that some of you might be able to educate me:



- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.
Imagine as a woman never leaving the house. Or if you did, you would HAVE TO wear something like a space helmet, a thick baggy shirt & loose fitting jeans & sneakers, & ZERO make-up. You're still a woman, why would it matter? As others have said, it's about how we feel doing it, not literally the opinions of strangers.

- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."
Compromise is fine. Not in all cases, but we do see some GG's using that term, when what they mean is,"I'll tell you how it's going to be." & the GG decides once a month( or less ) is good enough.


- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

We wear what looks & feels best for us( with exceptions). Do all GG's emulate other women? There are women who wear pantyhose & not just for business wear. There are CD's like me who prefer thigh-highs for the look as well as for comfort. Why do GG's wear short dresses/skirts? For comfort and/or attention, same for us. And there are women who don't buy into the concept of "age-appropriate" clothing, which is just as made-up as the archaic idea of all females having to wear dresses or skirts. It's chauvinism to suggest at a certain age a woman must hide herself from view.
This isn't to deny that there ARE clueless CD's, such those who'd wear a full length ball gown with opera gloves to a casual club. Or those in need of a "fashion intervention" combining silver with beige/brown for example.

Couples therapy might help the two of you work things out, so each can get a better understanding of the other's needs. And if something is a big enough "deal-breaker" then show each other real love & end the romantic relationship.

[Byllie]

My goodness, this thread keeps getting more and more interesting.

One of the points I caught was that gender was not simply a continuum, that it's more complex. I disagree, in part. I feel gender *is* a continuum, but what gender we see ourselves as is not the whole picture.

There's also our sexual orientation, and a whole bunch of personality traits.

Each is probably a continuum, but when you put them altogether you find that we're each a point on a multi-dimensional cloth.

So, we look at someone who CDs, and ask why? Is it their gender? Their sexual orientation? Their aesthetic style of dressing? Merely a comfort issue? And the answer is Yes, Yes, Yes ...!

There seem to be (at least from what I've read on this forum) so many reasons why we CD that it's enough to make a girl's head spin.

Crossdressing is an activity, a behavior, whose genesis is multi-faceted. To make it seem anything less detracts from it's beauty.

[Rikkicn]

The vast majority of CDs are not transsexual. Most of the people that post to this forum don't strike me as being even remotely like a typical TS woman. ..

How do you know that most cder's aren't ts and what is a typical ts woman?

I'm off to see a thrapist tomorrow so it would be helpful to have your insight into this

[Satrana]

Unfortunatly, the "big deals" are often the same for me as they are for Sobe. I certainly don't want Sobe to suffer any sort of malaise, but I don't want to either.
If both of you love and care for each other then neither of you should ever contemplate putting each other into such a scenario. You cannot have a loving relationship based upon a situation which generates misery and resentment. If no middle ground is practicable then the only solution is to compromise and agree to not agree, i.e. to look the other way and ignore the other. If the two of you work well together and the only sticking point is the crossdressing then this may work but is hardly ideal.



each day she spends coming to terms with it is a week I spend waiting for it. The advice almost always given to CDs is to wait, wait, wait. However as you point out, you have a life too which is being consumed waiting upon another. You are not being selfish wanting to see progress being made by your SO, so long as the rate of progress you seek is realistic. If you can see and feel that your SO is doing her best and is making progress then waiting some more is appropriate. On the other hand some SOs claim they just need more time but in truth have no intention of ever changing their minds so are just using delaying tactics hoping the CD will tire and give up.

You have to make up your own mind how much your SO is trying and whether sufficient progress is being made. It is not for others to second guess what is appropriate for you. Both parties have equal rights to have their needs considered, there is no higher ground here, neither is being more or less selfish than the other. The important thing is for both of you to empathize as much as possible with each other so that you both give the relationship the best possible chance of success.

My favorite definition: selfish - the total disregard of another's selfishness.

[Alice Torn]

Sobe, You mention cder wearing 1950 type women's clothes. I am totally attracted, to the 1950s, and 1960s ladies fashions. Todays clothes don't do it much, for the most part. And, men have such a small choice, and boring clothes. Women have a rainbow, men have a grey cloud! As a single man, who's heart has been broken and crushed, many times, and never got a chance to marry, I dress up to look like the lovely lady, I never had. I know it sounds selfish, and crazy. At six foor six, I have always been attracted to very tall women, but, was usually turned down, or the friendship never went, or I was too poor, or emotionally ill. I dress up, and look in the mirror, at the tall lady, I wish I could have had, and now can be, for dressing sessions. We all have our quirks. I have never had sex, with a person, either! There are more of us, than anyone thinks. I know a number of men, in ther sixties, and 70's, who never married, or had sex! I am off topic, so will quit. Lucille

[Chantelle CD]

Kehleyr

Im not even going to reply to you.

Tell me people....How hard is it to believe, that everything that we all can feel, can be felt by both sexes??? Like love, anger, hate, fear, joy, and yes femininity, and masculinity!! A sense of feeling pretty, and handsome, are all feelings that can be felt by both genders. A young child can feel everything, before it can speak, just look at them and you can see they feel it. And yes for some male children can feel female feelings at a very young age, and this is where the feeling of TS come in. Now you can make all the excuses you want, but the fact is, it can all be felt by both sexes, where you choose to take it, revolves around OBSESSION!!! Face it its true. So many woman out there are struttin about like men, and vise versa, why????? because we all can feel the same things.

Now... you all can get your danders up if you want, because of what i said sparks fire in your veins, this is because you are going to DEFEND your choices in life!!! Everything i have read in reply to what i said before, shows me this!! But you cant hide from the fact, we all feel everything together!!! Feeling more will heighten your existence yes, become more whole, have a lot more energy to draw from, under more circumstances, yes, but to say i am a woman, when you were born a man, or vise versa, why??? because you feel it, what did i just say???? it feels natural???? duhhh how long have you focused on feeling this???? the more i dress the more natural it feels.... so i have to feel me more as well, or ill lose it, and become TS!!! WE all feel the SAME thing!!!!!! How hard is that to believe????

Now i feel for SO's out there, that partners go nuts because of this, Why on earth does a man show his self to a woman, and she falls in love with him, and then he flips a wig, and decides hes a woman now???? You really expect her to stay??? if she does she buys into this, its what i am crap!!! When all along you simply can feel what she does!!!! And you obsess to the MAX. Now im not or never said that its WRONG to become TS, now did i?? If thats what you like, go for it, Dont expect a woman to though!! give your heads a shake, let her go, and be with a man. Thats what she wants to be with!!! God!!

TS may not like CD's why is this??? ill tell ya why, because you TS dont like your maleness, i read this over and over again!!! CD's do!!! and that picks your BUTTS!!! WHY????? You think just because we dont hate our maleness, we don't feel FEMME like you do, how flippin ignorant is that??? I can go out and pass just as good or better than most TS can, and that picks your BUTTS too..... why???? BECAUSE we all feel the same thing!!!! Maybe you hate CD's because this is a fact, and you cant live with the choices you made!!!

Now you can reply all mad at me if you want....but i honestly don't think a thing will be said that doesn't show me what i just said isn't true!!! So go ahead and blab away. I say this not because i don't like TS, but because im sick and tired of listening to you belittling CD's because we can FEEL the same thing YOU DO!!!

[Satrana]

Tell me people....How hard is it to believe, that everything that we all can feel, can be felt by both sexes??? Like love, anger, hate, fear, joy, and yes femininity, and masculinity!!

LOL, I think you could repeat that a thousand times and the message will never sink in for many. Most people are so sold on the gender myth that men and women are fundamentally different that they refuse to accept we are all have the same feelings and thoughts. The differences we observe are culturally enforced, artificial rules and regulations to inform us what we are and are not allowed to express if we wish to conform. And we do want to conform because we are social creatures who crave acceptance.

I have a classic example. For years I had private CD fantasies in my head. Since there was absolutely no information on crossdressing to be had or contact with CDs, my private fantasies were 100% my own not influenced by anyone else. They should have been unique to me but when I eventually got around to purchasing a CD magazine in my early 20s I was shocked to find CD fantasies identical to my own, not just the general storyline but the details too. How could this be? This was my first insight that we are all fundamentally the same. I have had several more experiences since, each time reconfirming how people of any gender or race have exactly the same feelings and emotions. How these are blended together and mixed with cultural overlays makes us all individuals but we are all based on the same blueprint.

I don't know any of you as individuals but I know all of you as human beings no matter what label you attach to yourself.

[kristiCD]

If it were me, I would not want to be in a serious relationship with a woman who disliked my cross dressing. I like having my legs shaved. My cross dressing is very sexual. I do prefer women. There are women who like cross dressers. They are hard to find. But it is better to be single than be with a person who dislikes or is not comfortable with who you are.

[Cara Allen]

on top of that were the drugs (prescribed) my mother used during her pregnancy that had the effect of feminizing my brain, those same drugs had the reverse effect on my sister masculinizing hers.


Generva, what drugs were these?


Great questions Sobe.

Kehleyr's response is quite interesting but it raises more questions in my mind. A lot of the response reinforces my fear that perhaps all CD's are transexuals in denial. :straightface:

So much of the crossdresser's life is baffeling in the context of identifying as a heterosexual man. It would be easier if the CD would just say "hey I'm a transexual" then you could just get on with life instead of waiting for the boom to drop or to keep trying to understand and wrap your mind around this whole phenomenon.

Hi, Kitty!

I have also considered this. It has to come down to either of two things.
1) What you say is true, and all TG's are actually TS's. If this is true, then what we exhibit are stages... The denial is a result of societal conditioning, and as we progress through stages of acceptance we proceed to transition, or societal issues are so overwhelming that we stop along the path somewhere.

2) That this is not true, and what the differences are within the TG camp are results of either degree of the effect on personality, or that there really are different things that create a CD or a TS.

I tend to believe that it is a combination... The drive is that same for all of us, but there are also degrees of effect.

Anyone else?


What's confusing about this for me, is DH has told me this. I can see that. I believe it.

But in the next conversation, he says he'd give it up if that's what it took to keep our relationship intact.

I guess he and I are going to have to talk about THIS issue soon. Ack.

Many years ago, my SO and I had that same conversation. We'd been in couples therapy, and it appeared that we were splitsville... we had TWO therapists, and both of them suggested that we break it up. I'd been our for about 4 years, and she tried to be accepting, but just couldn't do it.

I told her the same thing. If it kept us together, I would stop. She didn't believe it, but I did, for over 10 long painful years. I still cruised the internet, got onto chat rooms, tried to find alternate ways to express my feminity. Some time ago, I told her that I was expressing again. I asked her if that meant that we were splitting? She said, "well, I've stayed with you this long, I am not likely to leave now!

Things have been good. She felt that it was wrong to make me purge. I discovered that my family meant so much to me,k that nothing else mattered. I proved to her that I did love her, and that I cared. It did not change me at all. I just went into remission (purge) for a very long time. This was emotionally very bad for me, and I do not recommend it to anyone. To do that under those circumstasnces is an emotional blackmail. I do not blame her. I made the choice.

[Sharon]

TS may not like CD's why is this??? ill tell ya why, because you TS dont like your maleness, i read this over and over again!!! CD's do!!! and that picks your BUTTS!!! WHY????? You think just because we dont hate our maleness, we don't feel FEMME like you do, how flippin ignorant is that??? I can go out and pass just as good or better than most TS can, and that picks your BUTTS too..... why???? BECAUSE we all feel the same thing!!!! Maybe you hate CD's because this is a fact, and you cant live with the choices you made!!!

I hate to burst your theory and generalization, but some of my best friends are crossdressers, and most of them probably do look better than I do. It really doesn't matter -- I just do the best I can with what I have. And I won't even get to your prejorative "ignorant," because..., well, you seem to be rather quick with painting all of us with one brush.

I hardly represent every transsexual out there, but I am very happy with the choices I have made -- happy for the first time in my life to be perfectly honest.


Now you can reply all mad at me if you want....but i honestly don't think a thing will be said that doesn't show me what i just said isn't true!!! So go ahead and blab away. I say this not because i don't like TS, but because im sick and tired of listening to you belittling CD's because we can FEEL the same thing YOU DO!!!

So, rather than listening to (how many? two? three?) TSs belittling CDs, you would rather belittle TSs. Interesting. And this makes you better, how?

I'm not mad at you -- I feel sorry for you.

[Denielleinheels]

I think for everyone it is different. For me I have an extra X in my biolgical make up. I was told if my mother would have done a test to see what she was having (this was in 1961) she would have been having twins, a boy and a girl. I have lived and felt that way for as long as I can remember. For me it IS NOT fetish based. If I went through transition the male side would suffer instead. So I must learn to co-exsist with myself. So I may have just clouded what you were looking for but this is what makes me up.
My SO loves all of me and has chosen to live with.

[kerrianna]

Hey, this is a great thread (well, it WAS going along nicely :rolleyes: - some people take things too personally, not mentioning names).

Anyway, good questions Sobe and some great answers and insights. I wish I had more time to read them properly, but time waits for no woman.

:hugs:

[Kate Simmons]

Sobe my friend, I'm gonna stick my neck out here and say I honestly do not disagree with anything you asked in your original post. In fact, these are questions I ask myself all the time. I'm currently trying to prove to myself that I can be myself by being my guy self and expressing myself in that way. This in no way changes who I am inside mind you. Also bear in mind I am not your ordinary "garden variety" of CD and only speak for myself here. I had in fact been dealing with "sisters" who were telling me I was being a phoney if I didn't totally dress en femme. I'm like "Huh?" What is the point in expressing yourself and feeling free if you just put yourself in another mold? I still enjoy dressing but now I'm determined more than ever to prove I can be myself no matter what. It has to my choice totally or it doesn't wash. My wife does not live with me but if she ever does come back, I will certainly work things out with her as an equal partner.:happy:

[Denielleinheels]

LOL, I think you could repeat that a thousand times and the message will never sink in for many. Most people are so sold on the gender myth that men and women are fundamentally different that they refuse to accept we are all have the same feelings and thoughts. The differences we observe are culturally enforced, artificial rules and regulations to inform us what we are and are not allowed to express if we wish to conform. And we do want to conform because we are social creatures who crave acceptance.

I have a classic example. For years I had private CD fantasies in my head. Since there was absolutely no information on crossdressing to be had or contact with CDs, my private fantasies were 100% my own not influenced by anyone else. They should have been unique to me but when I eventually got around to purchasing a CD magazine in my early 20s I was shocked to find CD fantasies identical to my own, not just the general storyline but the details too. How could this be? This was my first insight that we are all fundamentally the same. I have had several more experiences since, each time reconfirming how people of any gender or race have exactly the same feelings and emotions. How these are blended together and mixed with cultural overlays makes us all individuals but we are all based on the same blueprint.

I don't know any of you as individuals but I know all of you as human beings no matter what label you attach to yourself.



Bravo

[Monique Althea]

I think that part of the problem is that I don't feel that there really isn't any such thing as a "textbook" crossdresser. It would be great if we as crossdressers were able to show the world the sort of united front that would force the rest of the population to confront their feelings about us the way the gay, lesbian and transsexual community have asserted themselves in society, but (ironically) we're just too diverse within our own ranks.

Part of the problem is the whole issue of denial. Having practiced it our entire lives, when we make those first tentative steps into the TG community, the first thing we hear is the "party line", which generally touches on these points: we are not gay, we do not want to get sex changes, and our dressing is not a fetish. Therefore, we should be allowed to wear whatever we want, whenever we want. To embrace that concept after years of denial is very empowering. If your SO seems to be sounding a bit disingenuous in his assessment of his own dressing, it's probably because when we enter the TG community we learn that "party line". The problem arises when the crossdresser (or the SO) discovers that some self-described crossdressers are in fact transsexuals identifying as CD's to either attend Tri-ess meetings (or in yet another attempt to lie to their CO); some of them are indeed homosexual or bisexual, and that for some, the fetish/fantasy aspect is an essential part of the crossdressing. It should also be noted that there are a small percenntage of transsexuals who feel the need to try and convince crossdressers that they are but closet TS's. Suddenly, the issue of self-denial comes back to the forefront for the crossdresser--Am I really dressing for the same reasons as all these other self-proclaimed CD's? Do I want to have sex with another man? Do I want to take hormones? Do I in fact want to live as a female?

The bottom line is that there are no absolutes within the realm of crossdressing, regardless of what some some of the crossdressing studies, spokespeople or websites maintain. Each crossdresser should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and the crossdresser should not feel pressured by his peers to conform to any sort of groupthink.

In terms of my particular path over the past two years, I did indeed confront my feminine side by acknowledging it through crossdressing; at the same time, I have come to realize that I also have a male side that needs attention as well. The lack of balance I feel between my male and female sides is where I feel the most conflicted; I have no desire to dress and live as a female 24/7, yet at times I feel a compulsion to shave my legs and arms and dress. Ironically, I have found that in going out in public dressed, I'd just like to be accepted as a crossdresser and not judged. I don't want to convince the world that I'm an actual female, because I'm not--for starters, I'm not trying to attract men by my dressing--and I'd rather not convince the world that my ultimate goal is getting a sex change either. Obviously, this means that my inner conflict, which once revolved around my desire to dress, now revolves around my inability to satisfy both my male and female sides at the same time. Confusing? You bet. I'm glad I don't have to try and explain all of this to a significant other--never mind the problems involved with attempting to meet a woman all the while knowing full well that sooner or later I will have to figure out a way to drop the crossdressing bombshell. There's no way of knowing if the average woman on the street would either be accepting or horrified to learn that about me (just as the woman on the street probably has no idea if the man she's just met is a crossdresser or not).

That, however, is just me. Your mileage may vary. Sorry if I'm not directly answering any of the questions asked in the initial posting, but I really do feel that while the notion of the crossdressing community presenting a united front is a noble one, we all have our own road to trudge.

[ashlee chiffon]

being a lifelong crossdresser and in and out of two long term relationships, i've found that the cd ing started out fun and ended up a problem...maybe its true that we want and expect too much understanding out of our mates and SO's and don't give enough back. I can say that throughout my life, my thoughts and feelings and self indulgence in dressing has changed...changed from the highly sexual and excitement in dressing....to feeling Just more normal, comfortible, and happy when dressed and en femme! it's been awhile since i've had a relationship and miss it, but weigh my need to live my remaining years in a manner that makes me happy and i'm not sure i can find a woman that accepts and supports this life i lead without the many problems outlined in this forum...do i Really want to go there again? The answer is Yes...but with someone that i can love, share this with, give her my all on the romantic side, and make equally happy for the rest of my years and hers! Tough act to acomplish, but any less isn't going to work as we all know that stopping our dressing is probably Not going to happen! Purging and quitting Isn't the solution...never was and Never will be for the majority of us. It's not like quitting smoking and there are no 13 step programs available...We usually Don't want to quit...Thats the problem!!! Finding,loving,keeping happy an understanding woman is the best course and it takes Lots of work on the man's part to accomplish this. I learned That through trial and error and losing two great partners that tried to make things work!
There Are no simple answers to this...sadly!

Wish i had to do it over again and that i was a younger, but wiser, cd!!!

[Fab Karen]

I think that part of the problem is that I don't feel that there really isn't any such thing as a "textbook" crossdresser. It would be great if we as crossdressers were able to show the world the sort of united front that would force the rest of the population to confront their feelings about us the way the gay, lesbian and transsexual community have asserted themselves in society, but (ironically) we're just too diverse within our own ranks.

The gay or lesbian people are ALSO too diverse within their own ranks as you put it, just there have been some who are more "mainstream" and seen as more acceptable to a majority of straight Americans. Not all gays or lesbians want to marry, have committed relationships, or raise children. There isn't in truth a united front in those communities either.

[sobe1ove GG]

Hey everyone! These have been really thoughtful posts! I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to my questions. As luck would have it, I have two more.

- Since my boyfriend is considering whether or not he is transsexual, this has brought up questions as well for me. I said to him that I was mad that he seems so nonchalant about essentially killing his male self. Let's say his name is David so that you can understand what I'm saying.

I feel like if he was a full time lady, full time Leah B, he would no longer be David. David would be gone. He disagrees though saying that the same thoughts and feelings are still there. While I agree, thoughts and feelings aren't the only thing that makes someone special. If he looks different, acts different, identifies as a completely separate gender, has a different name, has a bit different interests (or added interests), then how could he possibly be David anymore?

While intellectually, I can see where he is coming from, that David is still there, I DON'T see it emotionally. In my heart, I would feel that he killed David. That Leah killed David. I have already been going through mourning already over this, so I can't even imagine how devastating it would be if he were to transition. I imagine that would be the case for his mom, other family members, and some friends as well.

What does everyone else think of this death issue? If someone doesn't feel that their male side accurately represents them and decides to take on a completely different female life, then how could they still, from the emotions of others, be the same person?

- I was thinking a lot about how some people were saying that the CDer shouldn't have to compromise in the slightest. Of course I disagreed with that, but it took me a few days to really cement in my head why I felt that way.

For most of you, you have had decades to come to terms with your gender issues. It has taken a really long time to resolve your issues with yourself and what society thinks. For some of you, you still don't fully accept yourselves.

So then how are we, as partners of trans folk (CD included), supposed to accept it so easily? We have much of the same hang ups as you as far as 'what society thinks.' We also have to resolve our own issues with gender when presented with an issue like this. Essentially, we need the whole process as well.

Unfortunately, we are often expected to accept things and get over our problems and fears at light speed. This can, obviously, be a problem. We need time to understand what's going on and accept it. If our T-lover doesn't want to go at a reasonable pace so that we too can come to terms, this often causes a rift. We can't be forced to accept things so fast. You all have had decades to deal with this and we are only given a short amount of time. To take my relationship as an example, I've known in general for a year and only really started doing anything in less than six months ago. Is six months really enough time to resolve issues over gender and the identifying gender of our spouse or boyfriend when it took him over 25 years to accept it for himself (and still has years to go)?

I don't think so.

But if there is care with the time frame that things happen, and if the SO/GG is willing to grow and accept and figure this out, then it could be seen as an obligation for the CDer to accommodate her.

What does everyone think of this?

Sobe

::EDIT:: I also wanted to clarify my original post. I mentioned the 1950s. I didn't mean to say that fifties fashion is bad for anyone. I LOVE it in fact. Check out daddyos.com for my clothing wishlist. I want everything! What I meant was the 1950s attitude. Women are supposed to wear dresses and stay at home and cook and clean and so forth. It seems like some CDers are stuck in that mentality. That's what I meant.

[Chantelle CD]

I hate to burst your theory and generalization, but some of my best friends are crossdressers, and most of them probably do look better than I do. It really doesn't matter -- I just do the best I can with what I have. And I won't even get to your prejorative "ignorant," because..., well, you seem to be rather quick with painting all of us with one brush.

I hardly represent every transsexual out there, but I am very happy with the choices I have made -- happy for the first time in my life to be perfectly honest.

Sharon..

Did i some how point my finger at you??? i don't think i did, but you did for some reason. Maybe i am painting all of us with one brush, not just TS or CD's but everyone, and every thing, because we all come from the same place. One earth, one universe, the same light we all go to after this is all said and done. And this is why we all feel the same things. Free will is what makes us chose what we do.

I am glad your happy with your choices you made, i have meet a few TS that are struggling badly, going to counseling, and on the edge of losing it. I am glad your not like that.



So, rather than listening to (how many? two? three?) TSs belittling CDs, you would rather belittle TSs. Interesting. And this makes you better, how?

I'm not mad at you -- I feel sorry for you.

I not belitteling TS, im simply stating a fact, like 1 and 1 = 2 there is truth to this universe, and part of it is we are all interconected, we all come from the same place, feel the same thing, like it or not, you are born the gender you were born, everyone can feel what ever they chose to focus on, and because you can do this, what you feel is real, regardless on your label...TS...CD..Gay... BI....straight...what ever, its saying this is what i am, is simply not true, your all of it!!! every one, again regardless of the label you want to put on yourself. I dont feel im better than anyone, if i did that, then my conections to the universe would halt, because that goes against the natural flow of it, i am saying, im as good as the next grain of sand, as bright as the next shining star, the person next to me,this is what connects you, i see this, it opens my heart, and fills me with joy, far more than any piece of clothing i may have, i connect to it as chantell, or my self. I don't need your pity dear Sharon, save your energy for more important things. Saying that you feel sorry for me, makes a statement that is, you have a general idea in your mind, that i am a certain way, that makes you feel sorry for me, isn't that a judgment?? again something that will cut you off from this conectivness we all share. so its better you don't do this, 1 it doesn't hurt me, and 2 its only hurting yourself, why.... because you are saying to the universe.....i don't like this grain of sand, its like this and like that, you cant hate, harbor any ill feelings to any one, to connect to this inverse. I dont hate TS people, i feel the same things they do because we are males, thats a truth, like it or not. Ts think that CD are $^#$% because we dont hate our male sides, this frees us, to being more, because we embrace the best of both worlds. Just like 1+1=2 Truth. And is why a lot of TS are seeing counseling, and fight depression, all they did was exchange 1 side of there 2 sided coin, for another, and that makes CD's less why??????????????



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chantelle CD View Post

Tell me people....How hard is it to believe, that everything that we all can feel, can be felt by both sexes??? Like love, anger, hate, fear, joy, and yes femininity, and masculinity!!
LOL, I think you could repeat that a thousand times and the message will never sink in for many. Most people are so sold on the gender myth that men and women are fundamentally different that they refuse to accept we are all have the same feelings and thoughts. The differences we observe are culturally enforced, artificial rules and regulations to inform us what we are and are not allowed to express if we wish to conform. And we do want to conform because we are social creatures who crave acceptance.

I have a classic example. For years I had private CD fantasies in my head. Since there was absolutely no information on crossdressing to be had or contact with CDs, my private fantasies were 100% my own not influenced by anyone else. They should have been unique to me but when I eventually got around to purchasing a CD magazine in my early 20s I was shocked to find CD fantasies identical to my own, not just the general storyline but the details too. How could this be? This was my first insight that we are all fundamentally the same. I have had several more experiences since, each time reconfirming how people of any gender or race have exactly the same feelings and emotions. How these are blended together and mixed with cultural overlays makes us all individuals but we are all based on the same blueprint.

I don't know any of you as individuals but I know all of you as human beings no matter what label you attach to yourself.

Satrana

Speaks from a watchful eye on life, seeing the coincidences that happen, that show us <not blind faith> that there is truth to the universe!!

Very well stated hon...very well indeed.

[Satrana]

Part of the problem is the whole issue of denial. Having practiced it our entire lives, when we make those first tentative steps into the TG community, the first thing we hear is the "party line"

Great post Monique, very insightful. The CD party line is indeed a big problem as it only serves to obscure the truth that there is a great diversity within the CD community, and some of it is disquieting to the more prudish. The result is a CD community that is unable to agree or understand some basic concepts, and SOs getting mixed messages. Self denial and confusion reigns.



What does everyone else think of this death issue? If someone doesn't feel that their male side accurately represents them and decides to take on a completely different female life, then how could they still, from the emotions of others, be the same person?
If Leah is indeed TS then you are looking at this from the wrong angle. "David" was never there, it was a carefully created mirage then looked convincing but was a falsehood. You would be mourning the loss of a ghost. If "David" is a CD then he has to come to find a balance between his male and female sides. CDs do tend to convince themselves that their female side is better and superior and reject their male side. It takes time to get over this feeling.




For most of you, you have had decades to come to terms with your gender issues. It has taken a really long time to resolve your issues with yourself and what society thinks. I have seen this quote several times before and for most of us CDs it is not true. We may have known we were CDs all our lives but few make any real progress coming to terms with it and resolving issues. For most CDs the first real progress has only been possible by coming to internet sites like this which have only been available for a very short period. Just because you turned up late for the race does not mean you have any disadvantage in resolving the CD enigma as most CDs are still fumbling with their starting blocks at the start line. You know as much about the subject as they do.


But if there is care with the time frame that things happen, and if the SO/GG is willing to grow and accept and figure this out, then it could be seen as an obligation for the CDer to accommodate her. Indeed, so long as there is a corresponding obligation for the SO to accommodate the CD's needs and be prepared to wait to see how the CD resolves their gender issues and grow and accept that. Patience and understanding are virtues on both sides of the equation. Are you prepared to stay and accommodate Leah needs?

If yes then there should be more than sufficient common ground to find a solution.

[kittypw GG]

I feel like if he was a full time lady, full time Leah B, he would no longer be David. David would be gone. He disagrees though saying that the same thoughts and feelings are still there. While I agree, thoughts and feelings aren't the only thing that makes someone special. If he looks different, acts different, identifies as a completely separate gender, has a different name, has a bit different interests (or added interests), then how could he possibly be David anymore?

While intellectually, I can see where he is coming from, that David is still there, I DON'T see it emotionally. In my heart, I would feel that he killed David. That Leah killed David. I have already been going through mourning already over this, so I can't even imagine how devastating it would be if he were to transition. I imagine that would be the case for his mom, other family members, and some friends as well.

Sobe



Sobe,
I for one can totally relate to this and do agree. The male self may be a ghost like Satrana said but it was what was presented and attracted us to the person in the first place. Now after a life together has been started all of a sudden the rules change? I don't buy the argument that they are the same person, it just isn't true. I think that it is human nature to resent Leah B when it is she that is keeping the love of your life away from you. She is killing every part of "HIM" and will not stop until you can't even recognize "HIM" any longer (at least that is how it feels). Essentially, Leah B is fighting to be the front runner. "SHE" doesn't care what you think because "SHE" wants to express herself. Essentially "SHE" is killing "HIM". This is just as unbalanced as being totally "HIM". To deny "HIM" to be "HER" is un-balanced and un-healthy IMO. "HE" is part of "SHE".

It may take a bit of un-balance to get to a place where "HE" and "She" are integrated and become a whole person with balance and perspective. When "SHE" took over my marriage I thought I was going to die. I can't describe the hell I went through. It was the only time in my life that I have EVER felt that I didn't care if I lived or died. It was the only time in my life that I couldn't figure out a clear plan for my life. I sat in my doctor's office begging for something to ease my pain, the tears would not stop falling as I sat there telling her that my husband thought he was a women trapped in a man's body. Did I resent "HER"? Hell yeah I did. I wanted "HER" the hell out of my house, my life, my memories. It was un-bearable (this is not an exaggeration). Some how I stayed, maybe because I could not figure out a plan.

I still feel resentment towards "HER" because she was too powerful and tried to kill "HIM". This is the problem with loosing perspective. Once the dammage is done it is hard to go back and mend. Not impossible but hard.

Leah B, I know that this is a powerful force and you want to explore but please try to step back and give yourself some reality checks before the dammage you do is too great. Don't be so impatient with Sobe or with yourself. My hubby found that he is not a women trapped in a man's body. He likes being a man. We are trying to take baby steps in our relationship now but I still feel so damaged by his whole gender identity confusion. My wounds are still not healed and it has been 3 years.

:hugs::hugs::hugs: To the both of you. I have empathy for the both of you and what you are going through. :love: Kitty

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with Satrana about the "death issue". You can't really kill something that was never there to begin with. I know because that is how it was for me. My guy self was a carefully constructed and camoflaged persona to hide the real me so I could do what was "required" as a man, a husband and a father. I did have obligations after all. The real me goes much deeper than merely fulfilling a role for society and this is why it has become a spiritual issue for myself.
My deep feelings and love for my family cannot really be defined in terms of gender but I have used the crossdressing as a vehicle to help express my real feelings. I was brought up in a world in the 50's and 60's where there was no middle ground and expressing any softer feelings was a sign of weakness for a boy. This seriously conflicted me, so my feelings and my dressing went into the closet but couldn't stay there forever. I've accepted myself now but that does not mean I don't feel that I haven't let my family down by doing what I have done. Those feelings never go away. To dwell on them though is counter productive and really a waste of energy.
There is no easy answer. I made the decision to be myself no matter what and that decision has cost me my family, a decision I regret very much. What I have learned , especially since being here, is not to shut people out and talk, discuss and compromise if necessary. How do we know how anyone feels unless we ask? I don't think anyone is asking anyone else to instantly accept things. Hell, it's taken most of us decades to accept this in ourselves. Being honest with one another and having faith in one another is the key. Something I learned far too late.
It's obvious that you care about your SO very much or else you wouldn't be asking the questions. I wish you both well and hope things work out.

[Rachaelb64]

:2c: Ok this my view, subjective, personal and not intended to disrespect anyone.

Here goes, 1st I dislike pink, can't stand the colour, blue, purple, red, black and white in all shades yes, but pink no-way, whatever mode I'm in.

2nd, I like sport, I've play footie (soccer) rugby, badminton, hockey (grass) and squash. I watch footie, rugby and motorsports. I love going down the pub with my mates, playing pool, darts and going bowling (ten pin). I enjoy being a bloke.

3rd My Nan, mother and sister where/are strong woman (weaver, factory worker, Lawyer), my Grandfather, dad and step-dad where/are strong men (Foundery worker, boxer, factory woker) all from a strong working class background. For myself I've worked on building site, in factories and the health service.

So why do I do it? Depression, escapism, sexual fetish, cus I like it? They have all played are part, but for me to put a finger on a definate answer, it would easier for to walk to the moon and back.

I have been open and honest with my new SO, and with every good relationship there has to be compromise. If she needs me to be masculine then I am, but she can also read the signs (better then myself sometimes) as to when I need to dress, and she lets me.

Being narcissistic in a relationship will eventually destory that relationship, and compromise has be from bothsides. It is irresponsible, for someone to say 'I'm a crossdresser, so deal with it' to someone we love when we spend so much of ours lives trying to deal with crossdressing ourselves to find a place where we are happy or at least at peace with ourslves.

Communication is our greatess gift, yet so many of do not use it.

I am me, at peace and willing to talk. :2c: :happy:

[Tree GG]

One heck of a thread! Very, very interesting and informative. I just have to comment on the latest death aspects.

Another great GG here and I were discussing change and our conclusion is that coming out, finding out, your male partner is TG (CD-TS; pick anywhere in between) changes both the SO and the CD. "I'm still the same person" argument does not hold water. The SO is stunned, confused, watching for signals and clues as to how the relationship will proceed from here. The CD is typically the kid in the candy store and goes nuts in varying degrees. Obsessing, thoroughly enjoying himself, shopping, learning beauty tricks, on ad nauseum - exploring his femme side. Behaviors have changed. The dynamic of the relationship that was is gone - dead - and a new one has to be built (or not).

Denying that the femme personna "kills" the male personna because the male never really existed is bunk as well. Pat yourselves on the back, you did a great job of creating and selling this guy to everyone. We bought it and many of us love it. Take responsibility for your creation and it's effect on those around you. I've only been able to say the words twice, and never without choking up, but Darlene scares me because she has the power to take something away from me that is very precious and I am powerless to do anything to stop it. Call it control issues, call it unfounded fear, call it lack of trust or faith - whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that she can take my husband. Even if I participate and support and accept - I can still lose my most intimate friend. Doesn't matter if "he" never existed to himself, he existed to me.

I certainly believe there are persons out there that are adult, reasonable, rational and compassionate. They take their wives by the hand and gently lead them into their TG mind and lives and it is wonderful, loving and peaceful. But too many are not that emotionally mature (myself included). Or conversely, the wife takes the CD by the hand and reassures, loves and they walk the path together. But too often it goes more like:

Look at this! Let's bounce on the furniture in our excitement - oops, kicked you in the gut - but isn't this fun - oops, kicked you in the face - oops, watch out for that flying lamp, sorry.........hey, why are you mad? Why can't you be supportive? You're not giving me what I want. This was here all along, you know it was. Look what I did to you, she would never do that. Woo hoo, look how high I can jump.

Makes my head spin. A business associate once said to me that they work under the philosophy that if you try to shove something down someone's throat, they usually spit it back out at you. But if you serve it up and allow them to partake on their own, they can take ownership of their involvement and support wholeheartedly.

There is absolutely death of relationship and the person you knew - and death of person the SO is. Everything & everyone is changed. The supposedly learned in CD/TG issues publish that a wife's acceptance cycle is very similar to the grieving cycles. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[Desiree2bababe]

It definititely takes time and if I understand you correctly in that he has discovered his fem side less than a year ago, then I'd question his thoughts on the subject as well. How can one make a decision on a lifelong issue such as this in less than a year. He definiately could benefit from counseling IMHO.

If death to David ends up his option, then you more than likely are in love with a transsexual rather than a mere crossdresser.

In my experience with my fem side. It comes and goes, when the opportunity, the figure, the time all worked out to present the girl of my dreams, then it stayed a while but eventually my maleness would take over and the girl would be closeted until who knows when.

Perhaps he needs just some time. If possible, let him be in-fem for a two week period, no maleness whatsoever, and go from there.......

Good luck.



Hey everyone! These have been really thoughtful posts! I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to my questions. As luck would have it, I have two more.

- Since my boyfriend is considering whether or not he is transsexual, this has brought up questions as well for me. I said to him that I was mad that he seems so nonchalant about essentially killing his male self. Let's say his name is David so that you can understand what I'm saying.

I feel like if he was a full time lady, full time Leah B, he would no longer be David. David would be gone. He disagrees though saying that the same thoughts and feelings are still there. While I agree, thoughts and feelings aren't the only thing that makes someone special. If he looks different, acts different, identifies as a completely separate gender, has a different name, has a bit different interests (or added interests), then how could he possibly be David anymore?

While intellectually, I can see where he is coming from, that David is still there, I DON'T see it emotionally. In my heart, I would feel that he killed David. That Leah killed David. I have already been going through mourning already over this, so I can't even imagine how devastating it would be if he were to transition. I imagine that would be the case for his mom, other family members, and some friends as well.

What does everyone else think of this death issue? If someone doesn't feel that their male side accurately represents them and decides to take on a completely different female life, then how could they still, from the emotions of others, be the same person?

- I was thinking a lot about how some people were saying that the CDer shouldn't have to compromise in the slightest. Of course I disagreed with that, but it took me a few days to really cement in my head why I felt that way.

For most of you, you have had decades to come to terms with your gender issues. It has taken a really long time to resolve your issues with yourself and what society thinks. For some of you, you still don't fully accept yourselves.

So then how are we, as partners of trans folk (CD included), supposed to accept it so easily? We have much of the same hang ups as you as far as 'what society thinks.' We also have to resolve our own issues with gender when presented with an issue like this. Essentially, we need the whole process as well.

Unfortunately, we are often expected to accept things and get over our problems and fears at light speed. This can, obviously, be a problem. We need time to understand what's going on and accept it. If our T-lover doesn't want to go at a reasonable pace so that we too can come to terms, this often causes a rift. We can't be forced to accept things so fast. You all have had decades to deal with this and we are only given a short amount of time. To take my relationship as an example, I've known in general for a year and only really started doing anything in less than six months ago. Is six months really enough time to resolve issues over gender and the identifying gender of our spouse or boyfriend when it took him over 25 years to accept it for himself (and still has years to go)?

I don't think so.

But if there is care with the time frame that things happen, and if the SO/GG is willing to grow and accept and figure this out, then it could be seen as an obligation for the CDer to accommodate her.

What does everyone think of this?

Sobe

::EDIT:: I also wanted to clarify my original post. I mentioned the 1950s. I didn't mean to say that fifties fashion is bad for anyone. I LOVE it in fact. Check out daddyos.com for my clothing wishlist. I want everything! What I meant was the 1950s attitude. Women are supposed to wear dresses and stay at home and cook and clean and so forth. It seems like some CDers are stuck in that mentality. That's what I meant.

[MoonBaby GG]

Another great GG here and I were discussing change and our conclusion is that coming out, finding out, your male partner is TG (CD-TS; pick anywhere in between) changes both the SO and the CD. "I'm still the same person" argument does not hold water. The SO is stunned, confused, watching for signals and clues as to how the relationship will proceed from here. The CD is typically the kid in the candy store and goes nuts in varying degrees. Obsessing, thoroughly enjoying himself, shopping, learning beauty tricks, on ad nauseum - exploring his femme side. Behaviors have changed. The dynamic of the relationship that was is gone - dead - and a new one has to be built (or not).

Denying that the femme personna "kills" the male personna because the male never really existed is bunk as well. Pat yourselves on the back, you did a great job of creating and selling this guy to everyone. We bought it and many of us love it. Take responsibility for your creation and it's effect on those around you. I've only been able to say the words twice, and never without choking up, but Darlene scares me because she has the power to take something away from me that is very precious and I am powerless to do anything to stop it. Call it control issues, call it unfounded fear, call it lack of trust or faith - whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that she can take my husband. Even if I participate and support and accept - I can still lose my most intimate friend. Doesn't matter if "he" never existed to himself, he existed to me.


*Whew* ~ great post/thread and it's taken me days to read and process many of the comments...beautiful and painful.

Tree GG ~ as always you seem to "cherry pick" the thoughts right out of my head and give voice to my emotions.

With Nicole being transgendered ~ I've been though several of the grieving stages already. I *think* I'm finally at acceptance, somewhat reluctantly mind you...but I just want my spouse to "pick a side" so we can get on with our lives. It's the in-between and indecision that's killing me. Although I'm not going to *actually* rush her process. That would be rash and hasty & might give incorrect, premature answers.

[MJ]

This is our support network so i do not wish to hurt or offend anyone this is from my perspective

killing his male self



I feel like if he was a full time lady, full time Leah B, he would no longer be David. David would be gone. He disagrees though saying that the same thoughts and feelings are still there. While I agree, thoughts and feelings aren't the only thing that makes someone special. If he looks different, acts different, identifies as a completely separate gender, has a different name, has a bit different interests (or added interests), then how could he possibly be David anymore?

David and Leah b .. are the same feel the same think the same .. we have to act different because thats the way the world see us , David does the guy thing when in guy mode because thats what we are suppose to do ..
David can't show Leah's feelings when in male mode ... he can't sit down with the girls and enjoy a girl talk as a guy ..
Leah b. can be free to smile talk enjoy the comforts of womanhood show her true feelings be her true self .. but she is still David

as for me i am the same i still love all the things i did as PAUL .. but i am now free to enjoy the feminine thing as a guy i was not i feel i am still Paul just can't have a male name when i look like this


While intellectually, I can see where he is coming from, that David is still there, I DON'T see it emotionally. In my heart, I would feel that he killed David. That Leah killed David. I have already been going through mourning already over this, so I can't even imagine how devastating it would be if he were to transition. I imagine that would be the case for his mom, other family members, and some friends as well.

oh sobe he is not dead he is right there ... my god we are saying to our family friends n lovers look i am hurting i want to be the real me. gender issues are not catching and they are not fatal ..... it's only the one's we love that bury us alive because they don't understand us

What does everyone else think of this death issue? If someone doesn't feel that their male side accurately represents them and decides to take on a completely different female life, then how could they still, from the emotions of others, be the same person?

completely different female life, how so ??? nothing about Me change except my looks thats all.. i still have the same passions and interests as before i can be open now


I was thinking a lot about how some people were saying that the CDer shouldn't have to compromise in the slightest. Of course I disagreed with that, but it took me a few days to really cement in my head why I felt that way.
For most of you, you have had decades to come to terms with your gender issues. It has taken a really long time to resolve your issues with yourself and what society thinks. For some of you, you still don't fully accept yourselves.

you are so right

So then how are we, as partners of trans folk (CD included), supposed to accept it so easily? We have much of the same hang ups as you as far as 'what society thinks.' We also have to resolve our own issues with gender when presented with an issue like this. Essentially, we need the whole process as well.

i can see were you are coming from so can i ask you sobe do you feel that you are becoming a lesbian and you are ashamed people will find out ?


Unfortunately, we are often expected to accept things and get over our problems and fears at light speed. This can, obviously, be a problem. We need time to understand what's going on and accept it. If our T-lover doesn't want to go at a reasonable pace so that we too can come to terms, this often causes a rift. We can't be forced to accept things so fast. You all have had decades to deal with this and we are only given a short amount of time. To take my relationship as an example, I've known in general for a year and only really started doing anything in less than six months ago. Is six months really enough time to resolve issues over gender and the identifying gender of our spouse or boyfriend when it took him over 25 years to accept it for himself (and still has years to go)?

i can understand that if you met Leah first what would you have done ?


But if there is care with the time frame that things happen, and if the SO/GG is willing to grow and accept and figure this out, then it could be seen as an obligation for the CDer to accommodate her.

What does everyone think of this?

can i be honest and please don't kill the messenger .. with time and care the so.gg could accept .. but the issue is you gg are not "gay" . and now you have an unexpected other woman to deal with this is a problem how do you deal with it, if your man is a humble cd'r thats one thing BUT if he in fact wants to become a woman and you stay in the relationship what does it make you !! welcome to our demons " guilt shame fear " life is not easy this just makes it harder .. funny how how our family , friends , lovers chose to bury us alive how cruel uncaring is that

i ask before.. if you saw Leah first would you still date her ? . we as cd'r /trans also are guilty of not being upfront with our gg .. 99&#37; of the problems are due to us lying to our woman in the first place ..

but just as a new ts start her transition her new circle of life why not learn together we don't have 25 years to Wait while you catch up

again please i respect and love you all , i don't mean to offend this is just my take on a very sensitive subject .. in the pursuit of understanding and respect

hugs marissa
Whew* ~ great post/thread and it's taken me days to read and process many of the comments...beautiful and painful. as moonbaby said thank you sobe wonderful thread

[sobe1ove GG]

i ask before.. if you saw Leah first would you still date her ? .

Nope. Which says a lot about how I need to to adjust and sort out my feelings on the subject.

Tree GG explained this very well. Her feelings are my feelings. So, my response to the parts where you said that his male side is still there, read her post.

[Sheri 4242]

I don't say any of the following lightly!!!

I've been watching this thread with great interest! It certainly has inspired some in-depth, passionate responses! I responded, separately, to both Sobe and Leah a few pages ago. Since then, as more and more opinions and commentaries have been posted, I have been wondering if Sobe has really pondered her journey from when she first came to this forum and where she is today?!! IMO, where Sobe was and where she now is, vis-a-vis where Leah was and is, may hold the ultimate answers Sobe is seeking!!!

Back in April, Sobe posted:

I am a GG whose boyfriend came out as a crossdresser pretty recently. Needless to say, I'm having a really hard time with it. One problem I have is that now we aren't just a couple anymore. We are a crossdressing couple. I hate that we have to be defined that way. Can't we just be the two of us? It also makes me feel like he is now more important in the relationship than I am. It's all about him and his crossdressing.

Note that even back then Sobe was aware that (a.) it is "all about him and his crossdressing," and (b.) (his crossdressing) made her feel like his desires were more important than her in their relationship! Since that post back in April, it seems, too, that it is more than just crossdressing, but is questionably hovering on the question of whether Leah is a mtf heterosexual crossdresser or is transsexual, or what???

As I recall, back in April, Sobe was given a great deal of advice based on "where" she and Leah were at that point in time -- centering on communicate, educate, compromise!!! That said, even then -- and especially now, given what Leah has said -- the picture has changed. Even by Leah's own words, the picture is that it is all about him and the importance of what he wants!!! Leah doesn't seem to be able, or want, to step back and move at a pace that accounts for the adjustments Sobe needs time to make -- if she can make them at all!!!


I think that it is human nature to resent Leah B when it is she that is keeping the love of your life away from you . . . This is . . . unbalanced . . .


Does Sobe have to deny herself everyday of the week?????? Does Leah B get full rein of everything just because he is confused and can't see past his own desire's to see things clearly???

Sorry don't buy this argument. It is a two way street. I want to live my life the way I want to also but I gave up some of that control when I got married. THAT IS JUST LIFE!!! Kitty

Kitty, I completely understand where you are coming from; it seems to me, based on what Leah has said (and what else can we go on but that), that there is no compromising in their relationship -- at least not from Leah's side!!! The relationship is totally unballanced!!!


Another great GG here and I were discussing change and our conclusion is that coming out, finding out, your male partner is TG (CD-TS; pick anywhere in between) changes both the SO and the CD. "I'm still the same person" argument does not hold water.

Clearly many of us have empathy for Sobe and Leah's situation!!! Likewise, Leah isn't the same person she was back in April!!!


I hardly represent every transsexual out there, but I am very happy with the choices I have made -- happy for the first time in my life to be perfectly honest.

At the end of the day this is where Sobe and Leah need to be -- happy with the choices they each have made!!! If they can work it out, then so much to their credit!!! Do I see that happening??? Not the way things seem to be going!!! As the song says, "breaking up is hard to do." But, there comes a time when you've got fish or cut bait. Sobe's ability to love unconditionally can only take so much draining -- and things won't get any better if Leah refuses to meet her half way. Sorry if this seems blunt, but it is just my opinion of where I see the relationship!!!

[BarbaraTalbot]

Look at this! Let's bounce on the furniture in our excitement - oops, kicked you in the gut - but isn't this fun - oops, kicked you in the face - oops, watch out for that flying lamp, sorry.........hey, why are you mad? Why can't you be supportive? You're not giving me what I want. This was here all along, you know it was. Look what I did to you, she would never do that. Woo hoo, look how high I can jump.

~laughs~ Very apt description. Barbara is a very silly girl.

I liked the rest of what you had to say also. A little twist on your causation on the apparent death of the male persona, versus the CD's perception that he/she was always this way on the inside.

A CD in the closet is a completely different species than the very same CD, when they see the light of day. This, I think is more responsible for the perceived difference than the fact that now the SO knows she just can't look past the make-up and wig.

My dear GG, makes a real effort to see me as the pretty girl I like to slip into. She appreciates more than anything the radiant if needy smile that is Barbara's alone. My male side never smiles with such open vulnerability. Still she sees the man she married on the inside.

Crossdressing in the closet was never anything that made me personally happy or gave me any peace. It was silly, weird, and embarrassing to me. I never dressed fully, never thought to. Barbara is a brand new creation out of whole cloth only really 3-4 months old with maybe 2 months gestation before that. Barbara not only is different than my male self, she is different than my male self wearing clothes in a locked bathroom. The one has very little to do with the other besides providing the questions in my mind that led me to want to dress-up as Barbara. It isnt just that my femme side is revealed. It is that my femme side blossomed into being with the addition of sunshine. Maybe others grew over time like a carefully tended private banzai instead of like a milkweed.

The Barbara you all have met here is softer and more measured in her responses than my male side has ever been. We absolutely laugh at some sweet compliments I have gotten as Barbara that would never have applied to my argumentative, defensive male persona.

I speculate that Barbara is just who I would have been not gender wise but personality wise, if better more nurturing parents had provided the safety and security for the sweet 4 year old boy I was to have grown into a sweet man.

As an example, Dee has recently lost 40 lbs in just 3 months. I am seeing the version of her that is more in line with what is in my mind when I think of her in her absence, but she always looked like her to me. She has been getting beautiful compliments out of the mouths of babes at school where she does part time and teaching kids in church. She is dressing in clothes that fit, instead of tents that hide, is perched on cute heels (woohoo!) and is more inclined to pick race car red lipstick. She is happier and it shows.

She is different..or maybe just returning to an earlier self.

The key as I see it is for each person who will inevitably change, steers themselves towards their better self. Obviously we each only get to steer with one oar in the water.

[MJ]

i ask before.. if you saw Leah first would you still date her ?


Nope. Which says a lot about how I need to to adjust and sort out my feelings on the subject.
Tree GG explained this very well. Her feelings are my feelings. So, my response to the parts where you said that his male side is still there, read her post.

no you don't.. thats like if my wife wanted to become a man would i still date "him "
sobe this is a very hard subject ..:love:

[Carin's Wife GG]

when the thought of the *man* part dying it really brought up some deep feelings for me. It;s not as if either one of the partners tried to make this happen but I feel it really does happen for many of us.


I started out with what I call a regular CDer. One who dresses for pleasure and then seems happy in his old male self. As the journey continues however that male self is not as prominent. Now that male self is really not there much any more. carin has reached a point of self discovery of who she is and is confortable and proud of who she is. She describes it as on the female side of androgony. It is not as if she decieved me. She is still the same person I married only now she and I both know who that person really is. Neither one of us knew when we were 20 and 26 almost 24 years ago.

If she compromises in order to please me she is compromising herself. As a loving partner how could I ask her to do this? She is very happy to be with me, I am the one asking for some compromises. I am so glad that the kids (only two left!) are now in the loop because she also has that freedom and support.

I don't know what the futire holds for us. I know we love each other in a very profound way. Will it be enough? I don't know.



Louise.

[Chantelle CD]

One heck of a thread! Very, very interesting and informative. I just have to comment on the latest death aspects.

Another great GG here and I were discussing change and our conclusion is that coming out, finding out, your male partner is TG (CD-TS; pick anywhere in between) changes both the SO and the CD. "I'm still the same person" argument does not hold water. The SO is stunned, confused, watching for signals and clues as to how the relationship will proceed from here. The CD is typically the kid in the candy store and goes nuts in varying degrees. Obsessing, thoroughly enjoying himself, shopping, learning beauty tricks, on ad nauseum - exploring his femme side. Behaviors have changed. The dynamic of the relationship that was is gone - dead - and a new one has to be built (or not).

Denying that the femme personna "kills" the male personna because the male never really existed is bunk as well. Pat yourselves on the back, you did a great job of creating and selling this guy to everyone. We bought it and many of us love it. Take responsibility for your creation and it's effect on those around you. I've only been able to say the words twice, and never without choking up, but Darlene scares me because she has the power to take something away from me that is very precious and I am powerless to do anything to stop it. Call it control issues, call it unfounded fear, call it lack of trust or faith - whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that she can take my husband. Even if I participate and support and accept - I can still lose my most intimate friend. Doesn't matter if "he" never existed to himself, he existed to me.

I certainly believe there are persons out there that are adult, reasonable, rational and compassionate. They take their wives by the hand and gently lead them into their TG mind and lives and it is wonderful, loving and peaceful. But too many are not that emotionally mature (myself included). Or conversely, the wife takes the CD by the hand and reassures, loves and they walk the path together. But too often it goes more like:

Look at this! Let's bounce on the furniture in our excitement - oops, kicked you in the gut - but isn't this fun - oops, kicked you in the face - oops, watch out for that flying lamp, sorry.........hey, why are you mad? Why can't you be supportive? You're not giving me what I want. This was here all along, you know it was. Look what I did to you, she would never do that. Woo hoo, look how high I can jump.

Makes my head spin. A business associate once said to me that they work under the philosophy that if you try to shove something down someone's throat, they usually spit it back out at you. But if you serve it up and allow them to partake on their own, they can take ownership of their involvement and support wholeheartedly.

There is absolutely death of relationship and the person you knew - and death of person the SO is. Everything & everyone is changed. The supposedly learned in CD/TG issues publish that a wife's acceptance cycle is very similar to the grieving cycles. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Everything that TreeGG has said here, i agree with 150%

But.....it doesn't have to be this way, it only is, because the CD<s> obsess in it. They run them into the ground, and go crazy with it. The sensation dressing, and feeling things that has been forbidden for so long, feels liberating, to say the least, It may be more so for the male CD, i say this only because it is forbidden for one, and woman have so much nicer items to ware that make them feel so pretty, men just don't have those items they can ware. But this is still no excuse for going crazy with it, if one does, they start thinking... hey i am a tranny, im a woman, no matter how much you feel the females emotions, femininity, the fact is you will never be a woman, not even after SRS will you be one. Yes you can feel what they do, but thats only because everyone can, regardless of gender. Saying that, i know fully i can never be one, it all boils down to what is it that makes us want to take simple feelings and emotions, and turn yourself into a woman?? or try to. The only thing i can say to answer this for myself is, it feels good, it feels right, i connect to this easily, yes its a part of me, but only because everything i can passably feel, is a part of me, as it is a part of everyone alive on this planet. Ever since i was a small boy, i felt these feelings, as if it was in my past, it was felt so easily, and naturally, BUT, that is not the now, i am a man now, it still doesn't stop me from being able to feel these things. It takes discipline, to not go crazy with it, it takes feeling the male side and loving it as well, the ones that don't and go head over heals for the dressing, for some reason do not like the sex they were born, and if they dont dear GG's, there is really only 2 options for you to take. That is accept them this way, have a lesbian relationship, watch the man you loved change into a transsexual, there male parts slowly shriveling up and not function anymore, be with them threw SRS, and live with them as what they have became. Or, leave them, let them be what they will be, move on and find a new life, with someone else. This is about all i can say or think what the choices are. Realistically, yes they do kill the man you loved, i cant even imagine <and i have a great imagination> what living threw this would be like, it has to be so hard and painful, im so sorry that GG out there have to go threw this. There are some CD's out there, I for one, that will NEVER kill the male side of myself, when i am me, i love all aspects of being a man, more so i think because of the dressing, because of the duel sides of the coin maybe. Talk to them about WHY they want to TROW away the male side they were born to be!! Understanding this better may make it easier to make the decision you are faced with now.



Unfortunately, we are often expected to accept things and get over our problems and fears at light speed. This can, obviously, be a problem. We need time to understand what's going on and accept it. If our T-lover doesn't want to go at a reasonable pace so that we too can come to terms, this often causes a rift. We can't be forced to accept things so fast. You all have had decades to deal with this and we are only given a short amount of time. To take my relationship as an example, I've known in general for a year and only really started doing anything in less than six months ago. Is six months really enough time to resolve issues over gender and the identifying gender of our spouse or boyfriend when it took him over 25 years to accept it for himself (and still has years to go)?

I don't think so.

But if there is care with the time frame that things happen, and if the SO/GG is willing to grow and accept and figure this out, then it could be seen as an obligation for the CDer to accommodate her.

What does everyone think of this?

Sobe, i need to ask you about this...

Do you think it would be easier, for you to accept haveing a transexual woman, for a mate, if it took 15 years to become? would being with her be easier in the end having it take longer to happen? The end result would still be the same. The only compramize i can see a CD has to make, is in not throwing away there gender they were born, but to dress now and then, and be a man for there heterosexual wives more. Sure they can get better at being a CD, feel more and more like a woman as they dress, go out with you, shop together, have fun with it, but take it all of, give himself a shake, and be a man again, this is easy for me, it only takes loving being a man. Some situations i think, there are factors involed with there past, that makes them forget how good being one can be, like the incredible strength and completeness, you get in the arms of the woman that loves you so unconditionally, to name only one. There are meny more.

I want to say one thing, and its not meant to be picked apart either, cut or pasted and have my views belittled by anyone that feels threatened by what i say. I say it just in case there is a young CD out there, one that is searching to know or understand, if only one person reads it connects to it, and it helps them, for some reason. i feel i need to say it here.....

You all probably know by now i have a spiritual faith, i believe in energy, that everything has a aura, a energy field, I am a certified level 2 Reiki healer... Our energy bodies, aura, Chi, Prana, ect is directly connected to our physical body. There are many that know of this, and can do extraordinary feats by manipulating there energy, this also can show proof that the human energy field is real. This aura or Chi, is also connected to sexual organs in the body, Going threw these CD changes messing with hormone level, going threw SRS, ect will have an effect on your aura, each section of the aura is connected to each other, and playing with this will, mess things up, the result will show up in your feelings, emotions, and centering, like you may feel signs of depression, feeling of being alone, not connected to others, mood swings, and a bunch of others. Just something to think about, before you throw out a perfectly good body, not only the effects on the aura, but also your health, flooding a males body with hormone that its not ment to have, blocking the ones it is meant to have, will not be healthy, do you really want to go threw this, when you can totaly have it all?? the only thing that you have to do is love both sides of the coin!! thats all.. Thats all your loving SO wants really, to not watch you slowly kill yourself. Balance yourselves, Feel male, and female, equally, you may have to force feeling male side, because its feels normal, and not exciteing, but you have the ability to feel everything, even the male side, all you have to do is focus, and strengthen it, enjoy it as well, just decide you want more, than to just be a one sided coin, weather it is a female side or a male side, YOU CAN have BOTH. (((((again this is not meant to be picked appart, by someone that is going threw this, and feels threatened or defensive about it, its meant for those that are in question)))))

[RobertaFermina]

I feel like if he was a full time lady, full time Leah B, he would no longer be David. David would be gone. He disagrees though saying that the same thoughts and feelings are still there. While I agree, thoughts and feelings aren't the only thing that makes someone special. If he looks different, acts different, identifies as a completely separate gender, has a different name, has a bit different interests (or added interests), then how could he possibly be David anymore?

When I was a remote, socially awkward nerdy jerk, emotionally starved and cruel and arrogant, I knew that I was not mentally and emotionally whole and happy. I feared that I might actually become whole, and in the process, die, as I knew myself.

I'm still here, and the anguished jerk is still here, though seldom in control. I bring out everything beautiful about that jerk that his jerkiness covered over...everything that in his heart he really WANTED to bring out but didn't have a clue about how to do it.

I, the watcher, the tender of the Miracle of Life in this body, am, and always was, and shall, for the remainder of Life's tenure in this body, always be present, and be the spark in these eyes.

There is the choice of which level of consciousness you want to live in, that one which transcends appearances, that one that is attached to appearances ?

I am attached to my appearance as a means of inducing this (psuedo?)feminine beingness that expands my consciousness. I believe that consciousness is the main event....

I am also a cultural being, hormonally driven, attuned by my upbringing to judge people as I see them...that part of my brain does not transcend...I either go with it, or lovingly let go of it. I think this would be harder if I were younger, say younger than 35....I really think hormones drives it.

Leah is killing David's Habits and Appearance, not the Soul that is David. To which are you attached most ? If the balance is even or weighted towards appearance and habit, then the loss of David can be very disruptive.

David is a made up name, even his given name is a made up name. Even his culture and male persona are made up and trained into him. If you are attached to the trained results, other persons are attached to their training and feel like it IS them. Some have been trained similar to how David has been, and may share some of his endearing quirks and visual peculiarities. Happy Hunting ! (being cruel to be kind here, Sobe, but definitely intend no meanness.)

You also may be attached to how this looks to others. I leave that exercise to the reader.




[snip]I don't think so.
Neither do I.



But if there is care with the time frame that things happen, and if the SO/GG is willing to grow and accept and figure this out, then it could be seen as an obligation for the CDer to accommodate her.

What does everyone think of this?

I'd look for mutual accomodation. A healthy tension has an equal and opposite force on both ends. As much as he wants more CD freedom, she should strive to support that much freedom. However she needs him to limit his CD freedom, thats how much he should strive he could live with.

Instead of a tug of war between these complementary wants and needs, let it be dance where each celebrates the dreams of the other, and supports and sacrifices for the limitations of the other.


Sobe

::EDIT:: I also wanted to clarify my original post. I mentioned the 1950s. I didn't mean to say that fifties fashion is bad for anyone. I LOVE it in fact. Check out daddyos.com for my clothing wishlist. I want everything! What I meant was the 1950s attitude. Women are supposed to wear dresses and stay at home and cook and clean and so forth. It seems like some CDers are stuck in that mentality. That's what I meant.

So many of us are middle-aged and grew up in the 60's, or earlier. It is no wonder that this ZeitGeist should be current and common among us.

It is, however not a blanket rule for all who flow with it. I love the 50's ideal, and laughingly cast it aside when its time to don the LBD or Silver Lame Confection and go paint the town Red ! or put on the Low Rise Jeans and go out for a hike or for casual shopping.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Satrana]

Behaviors have changed. The dynamic of the relationship that was is gone - dead - and a new one has to be built (or not). Yup, that is true enough, the dynamic of the relationship will change and therein lies half the problem, the SO has to learn how to relate to a TG person and not a stereotypical male, and will also have to think about social stigmatization.


Denying that the femme personna "kills" the male personna because the male never really existed is bunk as well. Pat yourselves on the back, you did a great job of creating and selling this guy to everyone. We bought it and many of us love it.
I don't agree and let me explain why. The male persona is not just a complete fabrication, it is not a character picked from a book. The male persona is based upon the actual real underlying personality which is why most male personas presented by TGs contain plenty of clues of the underlying femininity. The male persona IS based upon a real person, it is simply embellished with male attributes to make it appear to fit in with other's expectations while suppressing the feminine attributes.

Think of it this way. Leah is a rose bush. All along she wanted to bloom large red perfumed petals to be considered beautiful but she could not. Instead she pinned artificial thorns all over her stems to pretend she was male. Now she is removing the false thorns and is allowing her natural flowers to blossom. Leah is still the same bush. Allowing her natural blossom to emerge has not killed off the bush, it is still there as before. To your eyes she looks different so you assume this is a different bush. It is not.

What is happening is that the balance of masculine and feminine qualities which make up an individual is being altered. This happens all the time, everyone changes bit by bit. The difference here is that the change in a TG coming out of the closet is much more sudden and more dramatic than we are used to dealing with.

I can understand that you may perceive this change to mean that one persona has been killed by the other producing a different person. But masculine and feminine qualities are the flowers and thorns of bushes, they are obvious external aspects of a bush's appearance but their appearance or disappearance does not alter the underlying structure of the bush, the roots, stems, branches and leaves are still intact.

What has died is the old relationship dynamic that was based upon the false presentation of the TG. The SO's hopes and expectations of a normal relationship to a normal man has died. Leah still has the same feelings, thoughts and emotions as before, it is how she presents this to the outside world that has altered.

[Khriss]

as "Frank" might say ?

Opinion's get deep , while reality ...as in life is "What it IS " eh??
... looking at life on "life's" terms is not such a bad thing ??
ikeeptrying-""K"

[kerrianna]

What a great thread. So many important and wise things have been said, and so much honesty is being dug into here.

I really don't have much to add. EDIT (haha, sure Kez...:rolleyes:). I feel kind of out of the loop, but I'm glad to see so many perspectives being discussed.

The only thing I can say is to agree that Leah/David are and will always be the same person at core - it's the same soul. Where that soul is moving to may be a better and happier place. Or she/he may be travelling down the wrong road. None of us knows if we're on the right path - we have to rely on experience, guidance, dreams and hopes, and in the case of TG people I think most importantly instinct.

Everyone on this forum is unique so it's not fair to speak for Leah. I can only say from my own experience that first of all my journey surprises and scares me as much as it does my partner. I have many days I wish I could turn it all back, shuck it aside, forget about it, just get on with being a man, etc... It would make life so much easier. Do you think I enjoy always feeling misplaced, confused, lost and unsure of where to go and how to get there? Do you think I enjoy putting my partner through all this? If I were to choose to present as much as possible to the world as how I felt inside it would take money, time and pain, a lot of very physical pain and taking medical risks with my body. Why would anyone even contemplate doing something like that unless they felt they had no choice - that it was the right way to go to attain something all of us want - happiness.

Even if someone isn't Transexual, many crossdressers ARE transgendered and that means identifying in different ways as the opposite gender. Identifying means that's who/what you are, and when we recognize those aspects of ourselves we attain happiness and completion and are generally better people for it. Many TG people don't have to be male or female entirely - it depends on the person and it can depend on where they are in their lives and their spiritual growth.

And has been pointed out here, society tends to divide us gender wise so even though it's possible that by definition MOST of the population could be TG (men and women) we aren't free to express or explore that, so we are still marginalized and our lives are made more traumatic and difficult than it needs to be.

Leah, like anyone who is travelling down this road, needs to go down it with her eyes wide open. And yes, Sobe, that does mean she needs to know where her moves place you. The only way you guys can survive as a couple going down the road she seems to be on is by doing it together, checking every twist in the path and waiting for each other to catch their breath. It's really hard to do. It means not only expressing what you feel to each other, but KNOWING what you feel, and that can be really hard to sort out sometimes especially with crap like this. I don't know if Leah feels the same way, but as much as I treasure and value my TG self awareness now, it's still crap that it has to be this way. I, and my partner I'm sure, would have loved to have me BE the more loving, happy, kinder, fully engaged person I am becoming without it having to be fuelled by my gender issues. The thing is, and this is no slight on my partner or my family or anyone else who has loved me for who I have been, because I AM transgendered, it means that as long as I deny that aspect of my being I will NEVER be truly happy. I will always be incomplete and feel unfulfilled.

I know some of you are probably thinking 'well, we're all like that...that's why people seek spirituality and other ways of fulfillment. Why do you have to choose being transgender?'

And of course, and I know this because I keep trying to "unchoose" it unsuccessfully, it's because I never did choose it in the first place. Did I know about it a long time? Well, yes and no - mainly no because I had no language for it, I didn't understand it, I thought it was wrong and made me a freak, I thought I could outgrow it, I thought it was just a kink - a fetish - a silly dream. It was when, after so many years of being fundamentally unhappy and out of place, I began to accept some things that things started clicking in place, like pieces to a puzzle. It wasn't manipulative on my part. Like I said, I was surprised too. And the puzzle isn't complete and I have no idea when or if it will be - I suspect like life itself I'll always be a work in progress. I hope my partner does understand that - I think she does because I see changes in her and realize she has not only become quite a different person than when we first met, but that she will be quite different in the future. And that actually is exciting and makes me want to journey with her. I think she feels the same way about me. We just have to make sure we stop and check with each other, because it is easy for one to get carried away and the other to feel left behind.

So I really do hope you guys find a way to journey together Sobe. :hugs:

I hope you don't mind me going on about myself here. I guess I was trying to give you an idea of how Leah might be feeling and why it feels sometimes that it seems more important than the relationship you have established already. It doesn't have to be the end of things - it can be a new beginning and new growth together.

The fairest thing for each of you as individuals is to be true to your own selves and be honest with each other. That way you will know when the road one is taking is not the same road the other is willing to travel on. And if it comes to that, that is where a hard decision will have to be made. I'm under no illusions. Despite 23 years together, it could still happen to me and my life partner and best friend. I hope not, and I hope it doesn't come to that with you guys.
:hugs::love:

[Cara Allen]

I feel your pain. However...

If your husband REALLY developed a life threatening disease, something he had no control over, you would not say, "The jerk... all he wants me to do is change his bedpan." You would dedicate yourself to making him well and whole again. You can argue that this is not life threatening (even though you claim that you grieve like he is dead,) but did you know that, at least for transsexuals, 20&#37; of them commit suicide because they cannot find a way to get happiness? This is not a flimsy construct that your SO has dreamed up. He didn't wake one morning and say to himself, "You know, THAT might be fun!"

Some wives get it, others don't. If you accept it, you get to keep him happy. If you don't, you will make him miserable and closeted. You argue that you grieve like he is dead to you. I am sure that you are a nice person, but this sounds very callous and insensitive. You know he is still there. The fact that he wears a dress on Sunday morning might seem very alien to you, and you might have a problem even looking at him. You might resent the impingement on your femininity, you might feel like you are looosing control over the way "things are supposed to be." But come Monday morning, he still goes to his job, likes the same TV shows, enjoys the same hobbies, cuts the lawn, takes you to dinner, rubs your back. You still get the same jokes, enjoy the same movies, believe in the same things. Often, if you give acceptance, it makes him even more grateful for you...He is not dead, and to claim that is just a bit of psychodrama. You are building a case out of your resentment. Someone is kicking and screaming, but it is not him....

He is showing you a side of him that no one has EVER seen. IT was allways there. He trusted you enough to display himself completely to you. Out of every single person in the world, you were the one he came to. He is not someone else. This is another side of the person you fell in love with. When this side comes out, you tell us that this is not fair. This isn't the guy I fell in love with. Oh YES IT IS! Better or worse.


One heck of a thread! Very, very interesting and informative. I just have to comment on the latest death aspects.

Another great GG here and I were discussing change and our conclusion is that coming out, finding out, your male partner is TG (CD-TS; pick anywhere in between) changes both the SO and the CD. "I'm still the same person" argument does not hold water. The SO is stunned, confused, watching for signals and clues as to how the relationship will proceed from here. The CD is typically the kid in the candy store and goes nuts in varying degrees. Obsessing, thoroughly enjoying himself, shopping, learning beauty tricks, on ad nauseum - exploring his femme side. Behaviors have changed. The dynamic of the relationship that was is gone - dead - and a new one has to be built (or not).

Denying that the femme personna "kills" the male personna because the male never really existed is bunk as well. Pat yourselves on the back, you did a great job of creating and selling this guy to everyone. We bought it and many of us love it. Take responsibility for your creation and it's effect on those around you. I've only been able to say the words twice, and never without choking up, but Darlene scares me because she has the power to take something away from me that is very precious and I am powerless to do anything to stop it. Call it control issues, call it unfounded fear, call it lack of trust or faith - whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that she can take my husband. Even if I participate and support and accept - I can still lose my most intimate friend. Doesn't matter if "he" never existed to himself, he existed to me.

I certainly believe there are persons out there that are adult, reasonable, rational and compassionate. They take their wives by the hand and gently lead them into their TG mind and lives and it is wonderful, loving and peaceful. But too many are not that emotionally mature (myself included). Or conversely, the wife takes the CD by the hand and reassures, loves and they walk the path together. But too often it goes more like:

Look at this! Let's bounce on the furniture in our excitement - oops, kicked you in the gut - but isn't this fun - oops, kicked you in the face - oops, watch out for that flying lamp, sorry.........hey, why are you mad? Why can't you be supportive? You're not giving me what I want. This was here all along, you know it was. Look what I did to you, she would never do that. Woo hoo, look how high I can jump.

Makes my head spin. A business associate once said to me that they work under the philosophy that if you try to shove something down someone's throat, they usually spit it back out at you. But if you serve it up and allow them to partake on their own, they can take ownership of their involvement and support wholeheartedly.

There is absolutely death of relationship and the person you knew - and death of person the SO is. Everything & everyone is changed. The supposedly learned in CD/TG issues publish that a wife's acceptance cycle is very similar to the grieving cycles. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[MJ]

as cd'r we are looking at this form the wrong view point ..what if it was your wife , lover who wanted to become a guy how would you feel , watching the one you meat become something total different .what would you say what would you do to help her become him, would you buy a suite for her after all it's only cloths , would you go out with him ? ,come on guys can you in the eye of your friends and family take on the appearance of a gay relationship " man /man " deal ..
we are asking our woman to become something they would not consider before to become a lesbian for us and in the eyes of the world in some cases and there family's . the things woman do because they love us .. can we do the same for them ...
sorry tree you are right

i mean no offence to the f to m this is just another view point

[tari]

This has to be one of the most interesting threads I've ever read in this forum. No wonder the world doesn't understand us. Even in our own community we can't agree about some very basic ideas. Who is tg ? I thought we all were. Why do men cd if they aren't dealing with a gender issue? My thought is gender is a linear scale. Regular guys at one end, and ts at the other. The cders fall in somewhere in between. Even the ts and cd have a sub-scale of various degrees. Sexual orientation is a similar scale. Where those two scales intersect is where we find ourselves. It is interesting that both gender and sexual orientation appear so fluid in our community. My heart aches for our so. They are asked to do so much more than they signed up for. If the roles were reversed, would we, could we support our so on such a journey? I don't know if I could/would. Life is such a maturation process. When I married so long ago, I never planned to take my wife on this journey. I loved her, put my blinders on(as it relates to my gender/sexual orientation) and took the plunge. I'm sorry I didn't think it through before taking that plunge. My wife doesn't deserve to be put through finding out her husband isn't what she thought. Sorry honey, I didn't do it on purpose. I was in denial. For that reason alone, I will not allow myself the freedom to do as I please. Left to my own devices, I would surely run amuck. I fathered children and made some very powerful commitments to others(now found to be under false pretenses). I will honor those commitments. I will however allow tari to see the light of day. I owe that much to myself. But tari will not replace the man my wife married. I am very sorry I took this thread so far off topic. I didn't mean to hijack it. The serious nature of the discussion has struck a nerve with me.

[MoonBaby GG]

I'm pretty certain that the SOs that are talking about grieving are talking about facing something a bit more profound than "his" wearing a dress on Sunday. Like their partner's gender expression (and possibly stated gender identity or even anatomy) becoming increasingly female. They are grieving over their soul mate possibly transforming from the "man" they thought they married into a woman. They are grieving over the loss of a life they thought they were going to live.


Yes, exactly. Thank you. My whole world has been turned upside down and I'm having to learn how to maintain a marriage with a different dynamic. Something that I'm trying to learn how to understand and fully accept with an open heart. For my partner and I ~ it's not just cross dressing in our case, but transgender expression and identity.

[Cara Allen]

All very true, MJ. I did not speak of a TS completing a life change, but a CD wanting acceptance. The difference is like athlete's foot, versus loosing the leg. Females have no problems wearing men's clothes... boxer shorts, men's hats, sweat shirts, pants, neckties have all become commonplace and fall in and out of style. I have heard it argued that CD's are CD's because of a lack of style and expression. This is a gross oversimplification, but it is true that most garden variety crossdressers and not up for SRS, and the idea is repulsive to them.

To say that you are going through the steps of grieving because your husband wants to wear makeup is not to my mind, valid, and sounds more like a manipulation, a means of controlling a situation that is not wanted. For the wife, crossdressing may be uncomfortable. For the CD, it is a lifeline.
as cd'r we are looking at this form the wrong view point ..what if it was your wife , lover who wanted to become a guy how would you feel , watching the one you meat become something total different .what would you say what would you do to help her become him, would you buy a suite for her after all it's only cloths , would you go out with him ? ,come on guys can you in the eye of your friends and family take on the appearance of a gay relationship " man /man " deal ..
we are asking our woman to become something they would not consider before to become a lesbian for us and in the eyes of the world in some cases and there family's . the things woman do because they love us .. can we do the same for them ...
sorry tree you are right

i mean no offence to the f to m this is just another view point

[Zee]

I don't feel like I am qualified to answer many of your questions as they do not pertain to me or my situation in anyway.

However, my wife is also from Minnesota. I told her my feelings about crossdressing early in our relationship. I didn't press her or force her into anything. I dressed only when she wasn't around, but I was always honest with her. Fast forward 8 years later, she is supportive, but is not comfortable to be intimate while I am dressed. This is OK to me. I love her and I can't help that. What I can help is how she feels about this.

Just to FYI, I could not have cared less about my male appearance. I hated how I was from a small age and never dressed up in nice clothes. When I am in male mode, as it were, I am look like your typical slob. I simply have never cared about my appearance, that is, unless I am in "female mode". I try to be respectable, I don't dress as a "****" though I do have kinky undergarments I like to wear on occasion. I like the look of a conservative woman, business attire and the like.

I have already reassured my wife that I would never under go gender reassignment while she and I are together. And we will be together as all my love and energy are pretty much focused on her. She is my everything. My best friend, my lover, my soul and nothing will change that. What ever makes her happy is all that matters to me. What I can say is that if your boyfriend isn't willing (as you are) to compromise in this relationship, then really you do not have a relationship. A relationship isn't a 50%/50%proposition. It is a 100%/100%. Both have to work at it. If your boyfriend is unwilling to see your issues, I would say that this relationship is in for some extremely rocky times ahead.

Like you, my wife still has questions about why I do what I do, and she does worry that she will loose me to a man (which will NEVER happen). But she still needs reassurement from time to time. And I give it. Everytime. I understand her needs, and I try to fullfill them as best as I can. Your worries, even with compromise, will not go away. What you need is reassurement that your boyfriend isn't going down that way.

It seems that he needs to figure him/her self out, and you know what? You should let him.

[Satrana]

All very true, MJ. I did not speak of a TS completing a life change, but a CD wanting acceptance. The difference is like athlete's foot, versus loosing the leg. .Yup, the old apples vs oranges problem. You cannot use arguments which address TS issues and then apply them to CD situations. This is why those horrible labels are needed or else everyone ends up confused and arguing with each other.

A man who is literally changing into a woman is quite a different situation to a man who simply wishes to express his feminine side through occasional crossdressing or seeking an androgynous look, especially if the man is not bothered about emulating a woman and merely crossdresses. Under these circumstances there is little to differentiate between what the CD wants and what GGs already have the freedom to do.

[crunchysoda]

The thing is, from what I understand is that Leah does not know if she is "just" a cd'er or wants (ok not "wants" but *is*) to be a TS, or perhaps somewhere in the middle even.

Sobe does not want to be with a woman. If she is attracted to males how can she expect to be attracted to a female (rhetorical question)? It all matters, the outside and the inside. What's wrong w/her wanting what she is attracted to which is a male physically (again rhetorical)?

There is no accepting, adjusting or compromising to be done, if Leah decides she needs to transition. Sobes desires are just as important as Leahs. It's not about worrying about what the world would see her as, it's about what Sobe is attracted to, what she desires, whats the core of that.

I think Sobe feels as though she is in limbo and Leah probably feels the same way.

I havent seen Sobe post in a few days. Sobe I am thinking of you. I also think Sobe needs to take back some of herself and I think she is trying to do that now.

Thank you Sobe.

[prettieboy]

im confused as well. in my opinion youre so is not a cder.to go be treated like a gg. not even, nada. cders dont need that.

[Cara Allen]

The thing is, from what I understand is that Leah does not know if she is "just" a cd'er or wants (ok not "wants" but *is*) to be a TS, or perhaps somewhere in the middle even.

Sobe does not want to be with a woman. If she is attracted to males how can she expect to be attracted to a female (rhetorical question)? It all matters, the outside and the inside. What's wrong w/her wanting what she is attracted to which is a male physically (again rhetorical)?

There is no accepting, adjusting or compromising to be done, if Leah decides she needs to transition. Sobes desires are just as important as Leahs. It's not about worrying about what the world would see her as, it's about what Sobe is attracted to, what she desires, whats the core of that.

I think Sobe feels as though she is in limbo and Leah probably feels the same way.

I havent seen Sobe post in a few days. Sobe I am thinking of you. I also think Sobe needs to take back some of herself and I think she is trying to do that now.

Thank you Sobe.


I agree completely. If Leah is transitioning, Sobe needs to get her own life. They are too young to try to work this out any other way.

[ReginaK]

- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

When you aren't a real woman, you have to compensate for not being one. If crossdressers were to dress like a "real woman", it wouldn't really be crossdressing anymore as there wouldn't be much crossing done. The differences between "real" men's and women's clothes are so minimal these days.

[Sheri 4242]

Sobe does not want to be with a woman . . . (t)here is no accepting, adjusting or compromising to be done, if Leah decides she needs to transition. Sobes desires are just as important as Leahs. It's not about worrying about what the world would see her as, it's about what Sobe is attracted to, what she desires, whats the core of that.

Absolutely!!! As I have stated:


. . . where Sobe was (when she first started posting) and where she now is, vis-a-vis where Leah was and is, may hold the ultimate answers Sobe is seeking!!!

. . . even back then Sobe was aware that (a.) it (was) "all about (Leah) and his crossdressing," and (b.) (Leah's crossdressing) made (Sobe) feel like (Leah's) desires were more important than her in their relationship! Since that post back in April, it seems, too, that (their situation is) . . . questionably hovering on the question of whether Leah is a mtf heterosexual crossdresser or is transsexual . . . ???

At the end of the day . . . Sobe and Leah need to be . . . happy with the choices they each have made!!! If they can work it out, then so much to their credit!!! Do I see that happening??? Not the way things seem to be going!!! As the song says, "breaking up is hard to do." But, there comes a time when you've got fish or cut bait. Sobe's ability to love unconditionally can only take so much draining -- and things won't get any better if Leah refuses to meet her half way. Sorry if this seems blunt, but it is just my opinion of where I see the relationship!!!

[Twyla]

- Some people say that they don't get where an SO is coming from when they are upset since it's just clothes? Then these same people turn around and say how much they need these clothes in order to express who they are inside. If the clothes weren't a big deal, like you'd like to tell an SO, then you, in theory, wouldn't need them in order to express yourself. Just be a guy then. So I think that theory is wrong and that people believe certain things only when it is convenient for them. Don't say it's only clothes when you feel you need those clothes in order to express who you are on the inside. If they were just clothes, you wouldn't need them.

Why do you like chocolate ? It's just food...




- My boyfriend said that he needs to go out as a woman because he needs to be treated as a woman. He needs to be treated this way, and then he will feel complete. Now, I don't understand this at all. How does what strangers think have anything to do with who you are inside? You are still TG or CD, whether or not people see you. If you see you, then that's what you are. I also feel saddened that what strangers think is more important than what I, his girlfriend, thinks on the matter. Curious.

He doesn't care what those strangers think about him. He just enjoys beeing treated like a woman. By anybody. You should try to treat him the same way. The simple fact that he tries to explain you everything about himself proofs that he cares what you think about him.
(I had an issue at my workplace, somebody blaming me for something I did. I had a valid reason to do that, but I explained nothing to him. Do you know why ? Because I don't care what that person thinks about me.)






- What is up with the whole 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude when it comes to MTF and their girlfriends/wives? If this was any other issue, we would certainly be able to voice our opinions and have compromises. But, since it is about your inner turmoil over who you are 'on the inside', we GGs sometimes lose our rights as people and partners. You even see it on the boards.

I think you are absolutely right. I try to figure out having a partner wearing boxers. Would I like it ? Definitely no. Would I leave her because of that ? No ! But it would be a difference between what I bargained for and what I actually received.
I think a CD must give more in a relationship than other people to compensate that "difference".




"Oh, well, this is who we are, so deal with it."

I would like to quit CD but it's not possible. We are told "this is who you are, so deal with it". No other options.
Can we say something different ?




- Sometimes it seems like CDers aren't emulating real women, but their idealized and generalized view of a woman. It's very 1950's. They wear panty hose, which most women don't wear unless they absolutely have to. They wear clothes that are too young for them and skirts that are too short. When I first heard from my guy about what crossdressers were like, I assumed they were trying to be real women. Boy was I wrong! I don't mean to offend anyone with this one, so I'm sorry if I did.

I think TGs try to emulate real women, but CDs don't.
If you look at the avatars on this site you will see some members wearing crinolines, others dressed like little girls, others in their fifties dressed like teenagers and so on.
Real women adopt highly sexualized clothing only in exceptional circumstances. CDs have an image of an ideal woman figure, usually highly sexualized, they try to imitate.
If your boyfriend is very 1950's, probably that period is close to his childhood when his CD started. Or else he was impressed by some female figure wearing the fashion of those years (maybe his mother). He will remain hooked forever to that period.
Something similar happens to me, I have my ideal women's fashion imagine and it doesn't change when the fashion changes. I would say that the image is burnt into my brain and nothing can remove it. Nobody, not even psychoterapists. That's the root of the problem.



- Speaking of what some CDers wear, I was talking with my guy and he said that he would, in reality, prefer to be on the androgynous side of the female identity. I said, "well, why now" and he said that since it was harder to pull off, he needs to be a whole lot more girly in his appearance. Umm, what? I thought this was about expressing who you truly are! This instead sounds like you are substituting one mask for another and still hiding from yourself. Do other people have this problem?

I don't have such problems. I don't consider myself a woman. My ideal world would be one in which I would be a man going out in a skirt and nobody wolud wonder. I don't use makeups, wigs, jewels, or other accessories. Only women clothes. I don't go out en femme because I don't want to give up my status as a male.
Would I like to be a woman ? Definitely yes ! But only if it would be possible to be 100% woman. I don't want to fake my walk, my voice, my talking. I don't want to keep my hands hidden all the time (my hands are realy rough even by men's standards). When it's about myself, I'm a perfectionist and anything less than 100% would make me deeply dissatisfied. Beeing a woman is not an option for me. I'm comfortable with that.



- I've read people posting about how they knew they had gender issues when they: liked pink, preferred to avoid sports, liked cooking instead of sports cars, and etcetera. Umm... what decade are you living in? And honestly, so you liking things that go a bit against the norm all of a sudden makes you a girl on the inside? What message is that for young men? So if you see that your son would rather play with a Barbie, are you going to sit him down and tell him he's transgendered? He, and you, can like that stuff while still being a man. I think that hinders the progress of men everywhere to think that they can't like those things and still be manly. Preferring cooking over sports is NO indication of gender identity issues in my humble opinion.

That's the old fashioned way to see the woman. Meanwhile things changed. But not too much. I would say that even in our days most of the chores at home are done by women.
To make it simple, I think both you and the others who think differently can survive these differences in your opinions. Not everybody sees everything in the same way. So what ?
BTW, pink is realy beautiful and sexy. Women should wear it more often. (My secret: about 5% of my underwear collection is not pink.)

Your message is from somebody who has a brain and know how to use it. The questions were very interesting. It was a real pleasure to try to anwer them. Thank you.

p.s. I appologize for the possible language mistakes. The English is not my primary language but I hope you still can understand what I meant.

[kerrianna]

I agree completely. If Leah is transitioning, Sobe needs to get her own life. They are too young to try to work this out any other way.

Not necessarily.

If Leah is transitioning, Sobe needs to think about what she will do. She has many options and hopefully she will contemplate them all, including the ones that scare her the most.

We never know what we are capable of. We can be surprised by the power of love.

Sobe, if it turns out you can't live with Leah as she grows and changes, then I truly hope you never stop loving her for the person she was/is and you two remain friends.

A girl really needs friends in a life like this.

:hugs:

[sobe1ove GG]

I know some of you seemed to be interested in what was going on between Leah B and me. I thought I'd come on and give an update of the status of our relationship.

For a few days we went back and forth about whether or not we should be together. And then one particularly angsty and illuminating day, I decided that we should break up. It seemed to make the most sense, and he agreed, but we both didn't feel right about it.

A few days after that, we just cried and cried. Together and apart. We kept being, 'this feels wrong!' In the meantime, we are just two short weeks away from us moving and we had no place lined up yet.

I stuck to my guns about being broken up because there were certain things that he wasn't doing for me in the relationship. I wasn't happy about the decision, but I felt it needed to be done. Since I can't afford a place of my own and I don't know anyone here anymore, I knew that I'd have to move out of state (from Minnesota to *shudder* Montana) to live with my mom if we broke up.

Yesterday we talked a lot and he said he would do what I wanted, but we didn't feel comfortable just getting back together.

Long story short, I'm still moving away, but instead of breaking up, it's a trial separation. I didn't plan on staying in Montana anyway, so that doesn't cause problems there. I will live there and he'll stay here, and we'll keep in touch and stuff. In a few months, we'll see where things are at.

The act of breaking up for real was heart breaking for both of us and we realized that we HAVE to be together. The trial separation is for both of us to work out our personal stuff and to see what we need.

I'm definitely happy with this decision.

So, now you know.

:)

[crunchysoda]

Ahhh well Sobe, I know that wasnt easy. It sounds like the responsible thing to do. To just take a step back and see what happens.

You have to believe that whatever is meant to be will be. It's better than trying to force something, that would ruin any chances yall had together.

It still sucks, I know.

:hugs:

Ive been thinking about you.

[MJ]

well sobe i wish you and Leah b all the best, you may both need this break to come up for some air ... and i hope you both make the right decision. all the best