Possible outcomes

[Maggie Kay]

I am wondering about this process of transition from Male to Female. According to the HBSOC there are many steps to be completed as an assurance that a mistake is not made. The time and cost are very significant. It makes me wonder then that there must be a lot of washouts from the system but who are they and what did they become? I have heard and understand that there are those who are genuinely mentally ill who can present like a TS person however, I also understand that they can also be determined by a clinician rather quickly as being ill rather than TS. So what about those folks who are far enough into the process that they see a gender specialist and begin the HBSOC and drop out? Do they become simple crossdressers? Do they revert back to 100% maleness? Or is it like that line in the movie "Dog Show" when the suicide counselor says "I'll tell you a trade secret, they all jump". That is, do all end up transitioning to live as the opposite gender? I can understand not being able financially or medically to be barred from GRS but that still allows one to live as a preOp. And if it is the case that we all "jump" why have the HBSOC?

[Teresa Amina]

those who are genuinely mentally ill who can present like a TS person.........if it is the case that we all "jump" why have the HBSOC?

Well, as I understand it, the Benjamin standards are there to protect the mental health professionals as much as to keep certain people from "jumping". God help the poor counselor who, acting outside the system, gives someone that later regrets it the go-ahead.
A thing to keep in mind is that, not so long ago, everyone who wanted to change their sex was considered mentally ill.

[AmberTG]

Also, there are a lot of TG, or TS people, if you prefer the term, who choose to live fully as a woman, but choose not to have SRS, for reasons other than money. Some people just don't want surgery that invasive. Some of these people do have an orchiectomy (I probably spelled that wrong) to lessen the need for T-blockers, but that's not nearly as major surgery as SRS. The non-op TS is no less a lady than the post-op, how you feel and how you live; what's between your ears, is more important then what's between your legs.

[kerrianna]

Also, there are a lot of TG, or TS people, if you prefer the term, who choose to live fully as a woman, but choose not to have SRS, for reasons other than money. Some people just don't want surgery that invasive. Some of these people do have an orchiectomy (I probably spelled that wrong) to lessen the need for T-blockers, but that's not nearly as major surgery as SRS. The non-op TS is no less a lady than the post-op, how you feel and how you live; what's between your ears, is more important then what's between your legs.

Right on sister. We don't always hear that enough. Sometimes I feel like not transitioning means I'm weak and afraid and a failure. And I know it's not really like that. There are other ways of being that don't follow anyone else's path and that is exciting at times and scary at times and damn confusing because sometimes you just feel like a freak who doesn't fit in anywhere.

Life is way too complex and varied to have only one way of doing things, and I have always gone my own way, whether that was the best thing for me or not. I respect the choices others make, and I have nothing but admiration and respect (and some envy) for people who commit to a path that is long and arduous but who know that is the path they need to take.

Meanwhile I muddle through as always... telling myself my way is ok too. Not sure about that, somedays. :straightface:

[melissaK]

The symbolism of jumping is appropo. A suicide jumper is ending this earthly life to move to another. A SRS jump is ending a gender life to move to another.

Thought provoking idea that we all eventually jump. Perhaps not physically via SRS, but certainly mentally.

I can make a case that my life has been nothing but a series of jumps. Some big and temporary, some small and long lasting, some stealthy, some obvious, and some even hidden from me by my brains DID three card monte-like memory games . . .

Is CDing just a spring board dive competition jump? Is RLT/HRT a jump from the Olympic 10 meter platform? Is SRS a dive from the cliffs of Acapulco?

Ok, now I have the Pointer Sisters song "Jump for my love" running through my mind Its 2:45 AM, how am I going to sleep with them playing?

Jump., jump for my love
Jump, I know my heart can make you happy
Jump in, you know these arms
Can feel you up
Jump, you want to taste my kisses
In the night then
Jump, jump for my love

hugs,
'lissa (princess of insomnia tonight)

[Teresa Amina]

Do they revert back to 100% maleness?

Another thought- was a TG ever 100% male to begin with?

[Maggie Kay]

The question that I was really asking was what becomes of those folks that are screened out of the program? Are there any at all? Of course, preOps are an end point but they are not screened out. They live as females. What about those who are denied HRT and RLT? Do these people fail some test? Do people fail the Real Life Test? If so what happens to them? Are they then cured i.e. stop wanting to be female? Since HRT is almost a one way street anyway, how does one go back? I'll speculate that few if any are screened out and that the majority of the program is help to adjust to the new condition of being female.
The therapist I went to said that the HBSOC are not always held to anyway and many relax the criteria significantly. He said that the standards will most likely be changed in the future to be much less stringent. IMHO they are very much too restrictive when one can just go to a plastic surgeon and get all sorts of body mods just by putting down the money, including breast implants and facial surgery.
So the upshot of this thread is that who are they kidding? Once a gender issue is present, some major accommodation must be made to allow the person to transition at some level to the opposite gender. It is like crossdressing, who really can stop it? For me, I can't imagine myself ever being comfortable in the world of men. My future is inevitably linked to expressing who I am, a woman. What screening program is suitable for that?

[kerrianna]

It was a good question Kay. I didn't address it directly because I have no idea.

I would imagine if it were me and I jumped through the hoops and got turned down the LAST thing I would do is return to my previous life. You can't. If you could, then they were right to rebuff you.

I'd probably try and try again and go outside the system or just march out on my own doing the best I can with everything. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some people who get pushed away (and you're right - I can't imagine it would be too many) end up killing themselves in the end.

There comes a point where life is just too painful to continue on in this incarnation, which is why I would hope that I or anyone else rebuffed wouldn't quit and would make sure people knew what the stakes were for us.

[AmberTG]

There are some people who can't take HRT because their health is not good enough to withstand the body stress that HRT causes. When taking HRT could send your liver or heart over the edge, what choice do you have?
I think some people do back down before the RLT is completed, they can't handle living the life FULL TIME. I think that's what the RLT is all about. If you're happier one year after starting RLT then you were before, you'll probably be OK with SRS.
There's so many reasons why RLT could be difficult for a person, SO, kids, job issues, some people just can't do it, with what they'd have to give up, they choose to be miserable somewhere in between, the lesser of the various evils, if you will.
I think that if a person decides, after experiencing RLT, that it's not for them and drops out, they go back to where they were before and deal with it, knowing that full time is not for them after all. Nothing wrong with knowing your limitations.

[Sally24]

According to the HBSOC there are many steps to be completed as an assurance that a mistake is not made. So what about those folks who are far enough into the process that they see a gender specialist and begin the HBSOC and drop out? Do they become simple crossdressers? Why have the HBSOC?
First thing, there is nothing simple about crossdressing! Second, you really need to have some sort of defined protocol to guide both the clinician and the patient. We don't want it to be like some of the plastic surgury places overseas where you just walk in and tell them what to take off and what to add. People that are having gender issues can't be expected to always know what is best for them. They also tend to be impatient (aren't we all?). The standards try to allow everyone to take things a step at a time until they arrive where they need to be. The standards treat full surgical transition as a last resort, to be used in the cases where it is absolutely needed.


The question that I was really asking was what becomes of those folks that are screened out of the program? What about those who are denied HRT and RLT? Do people fail the Real Life Test? I'll speculate that few if any are screened out and that the majority of the program is help to adjust to the new condition of being female.
I'm sure many are screened out of HRT. Any good endocrinoligist will not abide a patient who can't be depended upon to follow dosages and timing of the dosages. If they don't follow up and have their tests done to make sure everything is in balance they are endandering their lives and that is the Doctors responisbility to oversee.


So the upshot of this thread is that who are they kidding? Once a gender issue is present, some major accommodation must be made to allow the person to transition at some level to the opposite gender.
Surgury is not the end all and be all of the TS. It is one tool to help the person to attain whatever balance they need to enjoy life. I am sure one of the groups that is screened out, or at least slowed down, are the ones that think surgury is a magic bullet that will "cure" them instantly. The biggest accomadations that need to be made are between the ears. If a person with gender issues can't get their mind wrapped around the problem, than anything external is not going to help them.

Many of us will never seek or choose SRS. That is a personal and situational choice. It however doesn't prevent us from living a happy and full female life. It just makes it a little more difficult.

[Stephenie S]

The HBSOC are there for the protection of the practitioner perhaps more than for the patient. The doctor HAS to be sure he is following a standard medical protocol in order to protect himself and his practice from lawsuits. A lawsuit is possible ONLY when a physician does something wrong. If the physician is following the standard medical protocol, which is called the HBSOC, then he cannot be sued if the patient become disgruntled or disatisfied with their care.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Pamela Julie]

I suspect most that drop out of the HBSOC, do so for financial reasons or they feel they have gone along as far as they want too. Of those kicked out of the HBSOC against their will, it is most likely because a care provider felt they were not following the prescribed program. Of the first group, most are probably doing ok, living their life as they see fit. Of the second group, the rejection may have a more detrimental effect, ranging from suicide to following an unsupervised plan of their own creation. I agree the HBSOC was created to protect the health care professional, however it also opened the door to some professionals to provide care that they otherwise would not have. I imagine the RLT is the biggest stumbling block for those going through the program, with most reverting to living their TS life in the closet or occasional outings. Anyone not wanting to follow the program can go to Thailand and get everything done for a fraction of the cost and time. Money is a major factor for myself, however I believe the HBSOC is a good idea, although it could be streamlined to be less expensive and less time consuming. The RLT is probably the most important part of the program, if you can't get through it, you probably shouldn't go any further anyway.:2c:

PJ

[Maggie Kay]

I am surprised that on the forums, there aren't any drop outs posting. I suppose that I am a drop out since I went to a therapist and stopped seeing him. I stopped because I thought he was playing mind games with me but now know that it was a colossal series of miscommunication. My SO also made me promise never to go back to see him. This is not your average case, however. I suspect that most manage to get along as best as they can.

However, I am fairly sure that even in Thailand, the surgeons require all the same steps and letter as their counterparts in the US. BTW, Thailand and India are becoming a mecca for a new phenomenon called "medical tourism". They provide a level of care we cannot have in the US for a fraction of the price including air fare and hotel stay. The hospitals are state of the art with world class personnel who are often trained in the US. Soon it will be that most of us who cannot afford major health care in the US will get our care there.

[Sarahgurl371]

I think there was a case of a "drop out" in the local news a year or so ago. She was being charged with the death of her husband. She had attempted castrastion on him, with his permission, and he died from the complications of it. Where did she learn the technique? On herself years prior.

So unless the "drop outs" are cured of thinking about gender all the time, or are made to think that they are mentally ill and therefore resist with all their might for the rest of their lives, or are medicated or possibly hospitalized, I think that they go on living is torment for a very long time until the dam breaks open and they take matters into their own hands.

[Maggie Kay]

Tammy,
That is precisely what I fear is my future, a life of struggle and anguish. I just had another conversation with the SO and she just cannot help me go much further in my progress. I'm feeling pretty lost right now...

[geri]

hi girl,
if you decide on not having srs or grs, living as a woman in your mind, how do you handle the sexual issues? i guess if you want to have sex with a male, as i do, i get the surgery. if i don't get the surgery, will i be gay if i have the sex?
the surgery is a big deal and sex is an important issue in my life because as a male, i don't get none and haven't for a long time. so i want to feel good about ME.
i hope you understand what i just said and please answer.

hugs,
geri danielle

[Maggie Kay]

Geri,
Well on the sex side, taking spiro and estrogen can pretty much abate the sex drive. At this point, I never get erections and that is a welcome development. If you want sex with a male and are a female internally, I feel that you are not gay even if you don't have SRS. What your partner thinks may be very different. If I was to have sex, it would be with another female so in that sense, I am a lesbian. However, for me that is never gonna happen as my SO wants nothing to do with me now in bed.

[Sarahgurl371]

Kay I understand your feeling of hopelessness. I do. But, I don't know, even when thoughts of my future or pretty bleak, I still try to have some hope that some day, some way things will get better. At least you are moving along, down a path, and your SO has been willing to come this far with you. Maybe in time that will change, maybe not. But, and I realize this sounds corny, sometimes you have to stop and look at other people and realize that you are where they would want to be. Sometimes we get so caught up in our own troubles that we fail to see the struggles that other are facing. And sometimes seeing that we are not the only ones with problems helps me to calm down a bit. Seems to work for me (sometimes).

I would relate these worrysome feelings to my therapist if I where you though. Just one more thing. But maybe they could help you see around them?