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Jamie001
10-02-2007, 11:59 PM
Is it complete selfishness and inflexibility when a gg will not allow her SO to wear any article of feminine attire in public even if it is just one thing?

For example,

It has come to my attention that some GGs will leave their SOs is they want to wear shaved legs or earrings in public. They insist on a complete and 100 percent masculine appearance. I find this very interesting and would like to hear thoughts on this subject.

:2c: Jamie

raleighbelle
10-03-2007, 12:24 AM
Hi Jamie,

Although I understand what you are saying, and I think it should be no big deal for anyone to wear almost anything they want as long as it is not overtly offensive to others, I do understand the GG stance somewhat. If you wear earrings, or other female wear, it can be very embarrassing to her, especially in regards to friends and people she may work with. How you look is to some extent a reflection on her. As for at home, I can also understand how she may lose a lot of her sexual interest in a guy who dresses like a girl, though how sad that is. I don't like that, but I do have to try to see it through their perspective.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 12:30 AM
If I was in this situation and required to be ultra-masculine, then I would require the gg to be ultra feminine and only wear skirts and fem hairstyles, no baseball caps, blue jeans, etc. What's fair is fair for all. I find it hard to believe that some ggs even object to their sos wearing earrings because earrings are so predominant on males in today's society. Maybe it's the "it's ok on Howie Mandel, but no on my guy".


Hi Jamie,

Although I understand what you are saying, and I think it should be no big deal for anyone to wear almost anything they want as long as it is not overtly offensive to others, I do understand the GG stance somewhat. If you wear earrings, or other female wear, it can be very embarrassing to her, especially in regards to friends and people she may work with. How you look is to some extent a reflection on her. As for at home, I can also understand how she may lose a lot of her sexual interest in a guy who dresses like a girl, though how sad that is. I don't like that, but I do have to try to see it through their perspective.

My Lady Marsea
10-03-2007, 12:43 AM
:2c:I also think that whats good for the goose is good for the gander. If I have to be a sterotype guy for my SO then she should be a stereotype GG., no jeans, no boxer shorts or mens high power suits, no ball caps, no dress shirt to bed, and another zillion things they can wear with no one batting a eye. I got the old "I married a man" routine before getting the boot LOL.:thumbsdn: Upside is now I'll wear whatever I want,:thumbsup: downside...hummmmm....is there a downside at this point ??? If I figure some out I'll let you know LOL.:D

noname
10-03-2007, 01:55 AM
If I was in this situation and required to be ultra-masculine, then I would require the gg to be ultra feminine and only wear skirts and fem hairstyles, no baseball caps, blue jeans, etc. What's fair is fair for all. I find it hard to believe that some ggs even object to their sos wearing earrings because earrings are so predominant on males in today's society. Maybe it's the "it's ok on Howie Mandel, but no on my guy".

I'd be saying the same thing. Good thing my wife is mostly accepting. My wife practices what she preaches. Never worn pants in her life.

Di
10-03-2007, 03:00 AM
Is it complete selfishness and inflexibility when a gg will not allow her SO to wear any article of feminine attire in public even if it is just one thing?

For example,

It has come to my attention that some GGs will leave their SOs is they want to wear shaved legs or earrings in public. They insist on a complete and 100 percent masculine appearance. I find this very interesting and would like to hear thoughts on this subject.

:2c: Jamie

I think if you would start out the relationship being 100 percent truthful.....then you would not end up with a partner that would want you to be 100 percent masculine ......:Angry3:


:2c:I also think that whats good for the goose is good for the gander. If I have to be a sterotype guy for my SO then she should be a stereotype GG., no jeans, no boxer shorts or mens high power suits, no ball caps, no dress shirt to bed, and another zillion things they can wear with no one batting a eye. I got the old "I married a man" routine before getting the boot LOL.:thumbsdn: Upside is now I'll wear whatever I want,:thumbsup: downside...hummmmm....is there a downside at this point ??? If I figure some out I'll let you know LOL.:D

read my answer above....AND YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME.......this coming from someone who wants to wear whatever they want....and you would put restrictions on your partner:rolleyes:

Sandra
10-03-2007, 03:24 AM
I really don't belive this thread :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:

Ema1234 GG
10-03-2007, 03:30 AM
Oh my god I actually have to walk away from this thread before I'm able to make a constructive comment on this. :Angry3: :Angry3: :Angry3:

EDIT

Ok here goes.

Ok, well how about I think it can be complete inflexibility and selfishness when a CD insists on wearing femm items and does not consider the needs of their partner as well? Surely a relationship is about give and take, and that means compromise on both sides.

I don't know where you've got the impression that we insist on 100% masculinity all the time, I've certainly never seen a post that alludes to that on this board. Yes it's rare (and extremely lucky for the CD involved) to find a SO who is completely accepting of everything but perhaps there is a very good reason for that.

How many of the SO's on here knew about CDing from the outset? I'm hazard a guess that it's relatively few of them. For the rest of us, the person we entered into a relationship with, fell in love with, married was "all man". But then you spring this huge secret on us that you've been harbouring and expect us to be automatically ok with it and allow you you're every whim regardless of our own feelings.

For those whose partners knew from the start, well that's a different situation all together and from the posts on this forum those in that position do tend to be the most accepting. That's not saying that those who found out whilst in the relationship can't also come to that level of acceptance.

But to say those of us who place restrictions on our partners CDing are completey inflexible and selfish is unbelievable. What about our feelings and thoughts on the matter? Or do we not count? So long as your CDing as satisified to hell with your SO's feelings.

Blonde
10-03-2007, 04:42 AM
No matter which "side of the fence" you're on, the "my way or the high way" state of mind is selfish and narrow minded.

Angie G
10-03-2007, 04:54 AM
I went all summer with my legs shaved wearing shorts and I wear posts some balls the U.S. flags and Skull and cross bones and my wife if OK with it :hugs:
Angie

JudeGG
10-03-2007, 05:14 AM
I'm preparing to be flamed for this but am going to say it anyway.

I do insist on masculinity at all times - why wouldnt I? I didn't know until way into the marriage that my hubby CDs.

I married a man and that's what I want to see at all times - I have no desire to see him dressed like a woman, I don't need a new sister or a new friend - I need my husband and my husband is a man - he might have a more feminine side - but I don't need him to be dressed to see that side.

He married a woman and accepts that this woman may sometimes wear jeans etc but he knew that before we got married - he chose to marry that woman. I chose to marry a man - a man who conveniently didnt tell me about CDing.

We both have choices and we have boundaries to try and keep the marriage together.......he dresses when I'm not about to see it. So I don't stop him dressing but it has to be out of my sight.

Sheila
10-03-2007, 05:17 AM
maybe, maybe not, but many times we only hear from the complainant on the subject, very rarely from both parties .............. maybe a skewered view ......... just my:2c:

And you know some GG's never had the option or not to Marry a crossdresser in the first place ............... so if we want to talk about choices surely they should have been given that option .......... I mean we don't go out and pick up a new partner as easily or as oft as a new pair of panties or a set of earring .......... again just my :2c:

Shannon CD
10-03-2007, 05:33 AM
In my opinion it is about what is "appropriate". I know that I would not want an SO to wear something to an event that would embarrass me, so why should I expect her to "accept" that kind of behavior from me. This has very little, if anything, to do with feminine/masculine. When spending time in public with your SO you should have respect, and so should they. In our society, most public events do not require a woman to wear dresses, so jeans or pants do not draw stares and comments, thus no reason for the man to be embarrassed by his SO. Unfortunately we have not gotten that far on the other end of the spectrum, so until we do YOU MUST CONSIDER YOUR SO's FEELINGS.

The other option is to remain single and be happy about it.

Satrana
10-03-2007, 05:45 AM
Well if you are talking about a total prohibition of any feminine article whatsoever then yes in this scenario it is only the SOs feelings that are being taken into account and not the CDs. Not really a definition of compromise in my book.

It is a subjective issue. As you pointed out men wearing earings or having shaved body hair is not an indicator of anything in particular. The public is not going to point at a man with earings and say "He is a CD, it is so obvious". In these cases we are essentially dealing with paranoia on the part of the SO (and often the CDs themselves). But if he is wearing 4 inch stilettos then that would be seen as a clear sign. But if the attire in question is not overtly feminine then the question is raised how is this different from women wearing male attire in public?

For me, so long as the attire does not automatically identify you as a crossdresser, then the CD should have the freedom to wear it in the same manner as women have a right to wear what they wish until the point is reached when their gender would be questioned.

CDs expect GGs to be automatically against crossdressing and also expect to have to live within strict rules if they do emerge from the closet. But there has to be some give and take and a sensible appreciation that CDs need the same level of self expression as GGs themselves have.

Veronica E. Scott
10-03-2007, 06:26 AM
There are some topics that really get my goat and this is one of them.:Angry3:
Well here goes I know that I am old fashion and there are some areas of a relationship where one might have to compromise,but where in the marriage vows does it say that either partner gets to tell the other what to do. When I got married I married a help mate not an owner. NO one has the right to tell the other one what they can do ,say, what type of clothing to ware or not ware. One might not like what the other is waring but that does not give them the right to tell them they can't ware it.One could ask me not to do something and most cases I will comply but don't tell me to do anything. Ok I got that off my chest. Marriage is give and take mutual trust and respect out of respect I will not intentionally wear something that would embarrass my wife.

Kate Simmons
10-03-2007, 06:30 AM
In my opinion, this issue is something each couple has to work out for themselves in regard to consideration of feelings and showing mutual respect. Ball park observations and knee jerk reactions are totally useless because the situation of each couple is different and unique. We are the experts when it comes to knowing our SO's and are the best ones to make the call. If it is an issue, discussing things rationally and intelligently is the best way to go. This is true teamwork in action.

Past disappointments (on both sides) are just that--in the past and we should consider them as a learning experience and move in a positive direction. If we truely want the relationship to be successful, we will have consideration for one another's feelings to the extent possible.

erickka
10-03-2007, 06:45 AM
At any rate, it takes two to tango,,,,,,

Daintre
10-03-2007, 09:42 AM
Sandra, I have to agree with you 100% ....I will just say that and walk away.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 10:46 AM
Ema,

I believe that you may have missed the original point of my post, or possibly my original post was ambiguous and didn't state the issue properly. My original post was regarding wearing one fem item in male mode. A good example of this is earrings. A post that I saw on this forum last night caused me to ask this question. The post was discussing "Double Standards" and we were discussing pushing the envelope by wearing fem items in male mode. The person that responded said that if he were to wear earrings in male mode or shaved legs in male mode, his wife would leave. Don't you think this is a little to inflexable?

Does this mean that if he wanted to wear earrings in male mode you would not allow it? Don't you think that your attitude is "my way or the highway" and therefore is unflexible? After all, wearing a fem item does not equate to being dressed as a woman. For eample, Howie Mandel on Deal or no Deal wears earrings and so do many other TV personalities. In my opinion, you are inflexible. :2c:


I'm preparing to be flamed for this but am going to say it anyway.

I do insist on masculinity at all times - why wouldnt I? I didn't know until way into the marriage that my hubby CDs.

I married a man and that's what I want to see at all times - I have no desire to see him dressed like a woman, I don't need a new sister or a new friend - I need my husband and my husband is a man - he might have a more feminine side - but I don't need him to be dressed to see that side.

He married a woman and accepts that this woman may sometimes wear jeans etc but he knew that before we got married - he chose to marry that woman. I chose to marry a man - a man who conveniently didnt tell me about CDing.

We both have choices and we have boundaries to try and keep the marriage together.......he dresses when I'm not about to see it. So I don't stop him dressing but it has to be out of my sight.

Tamara Croft
10-03-2007, 11:40 AM
Walk away Tamara.... just walk away.... I really believe once again that the word 'CLUELESS' comes to mind... selfish? wow... the only selfish person is the one who doesn't tell their partner UP FRONT.. that they are a CD.. then expect them to be 100% accepting, run around in circles after them, throw down rose petals and worship the ground they walk on... oh give me a flaming break... this thread is worse than the double standards one....

101 - how to piss of the GG members.... post clueless threads :rolleyes:

jaina
10-03-2007, 11:44 AM
Yes , It does seem to be complete inflexibility.
It should never be OK to to control or deny ones self expression.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 11:50 AM
They don't expect them to be 100 percent accepting, however, being 100 percent non-accepting is selfish. Compromise is what is needed. If wish that there was someway that I could clarify the original post to make it clear, unfortunately I don't know how to do it because a lot of folks are reading something into the original post that just isn't there. I am trying to discuss full 100 percent rejection of wearing any fem item (even earrings) as being unfair. Nowhere in the post am I saying that the gg should be 100 percent accepting.



Walk away Tamara.... just walk away.... I really believe once again that the word 'CLUELESS' comes to mind... selfish? wow... the only selfish person is the one who doesn't tell their partner UP FRONT.. that they are a CD.. then expect them to be 100% accepting, run around in circles after them, throw down rose petals and worship the ground they walk on... oh give me a flaming break... this thread is worse than the double standards one....

101 - how to piss of the GG members.... post clueless threads :rolleyes:

docrobbysherry
10-03-2007, 11:54 AM
In my opinion, this issue is something each couple has to work out for themselves in regard to consideration of feelings and showing mutual respect. Ball park observations and knee jerk reactions are totally useless because the situation of each couple is different and unique. We are the experts when it comes to knowing our SO's and are the best ones to make the call. If it is an issue, discussing things rationally and intelligently is the best way to go. This is true teamwork in action.

Past disappointments (on both sides) are just that--in the past and we should consider them as a learning experience and move in a positive direction. If we truely want the relationship to be successful, we will have consideration for one another's feelings to the extent possible.


Salandra has really said it all! It doesn't matter what anyone says on this subject, only what your SO and u say. U both must constantly compromise and consider both persons feelings. If your arrangement doesn't work, change it. If you can't make it work, u go your separate ways. That's NOT such a big deal these days. It HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE, JUST THE TWO OF U!
Well, of course I'm divorced. Why do u ask? Ha ha ha

Tamara Croft
10-03-2007, 11:56 AM
They don't expect them to be 100 percent accepting, however, being 100 percent non-accepting is selfish.It is? are you kidding me? Pray tell me, just why should anyone be accepting? who said? with an attitude like that, it's no wonder whoever you're talking about, or whatever, isn't accepting at all, you really have no clue about the real world do you... selfish my ass... fgs get a clue :rolleyes: that has got to be the most insulting thing I've ever heard. Just because you're a CD, does not mean ANYONE has to accept it, it's your issue, no one elses and to call someone selfish for disliking it is beyond :lame:

jaina
10-03-2007, 12:06 PM
There do seem to be some very Contradictory stances.

There are no clothing double standards, wear what you want, no one can stop you, just don't do it around me, because I have the right to tell you what to wear.:rolleyes:

Dee Talbot
10-03-2007, 12:24 PM
Sometimes it's not about inflexibility. Sometimes, it has nothing to do with acceptance of the crossdresser. There are other reasons for asking our CD husband's to exercise some discretion.

Example, my family. We have 5 children who don't know about Barbara. This is something she and I have discussed, and we BOTH prefer to wait to tell the children. Therefore, dressing in public is an issue for us. Barbara has, for the most part, had to stay within the confines of our bedroom.

If we told the children tomorrow, then there are other concerns. I WILL NOT subject my children to teasing. It's hard enough being a child, they don't need to deal with teasing. If Barbara dressed in public, other children WOULD tease our children. I work with children, so I say with 100% confidence that this would absolutely happen. Barbara herself waited until after a day camp she was attending with our youngest son before waxing her legs for the very same reason. (edited to add....I know there are those who do live openly, and their children are aware. I appreciate and respect their bravery and honesty. I'm simply too much of a coward to do it)

Am I completely inflexible when it comes to putting our children in the way of possible teasing, misunderstanding, violence (yep, when kids are picked on because they (or their parents) are different it can and does lead to violence)? You'd better believe it. Barbara's need to express her femininity takes a HUGE backseat the the well-being of OUR children

To say that is complete inflexiblity for us to disallow our CD husbands any form of public femme expression is not taking into account the many other reasons that could lead to these decisions. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my love or acceptance for and of Barbara.

I have to echo Salandra and say that this is a decision for each couple to make individually on this issue as meets their own personal needs and situation.

Dee

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 12:38 PM
Thank you Jaina, :kickbutt:

You hit the nail on the head! Some of the GG's here just don't get that it is selfish and WRONG to not come to a compromise. Life is about compromise. The CD didn't choose to be a CD anymore than someone choose to get cancer, or someone that is born retarded or disabled. The CD was born that way!! That is the part some of the GGs don't understand and it seems that some of them believe that it is the CD's fault and that he should be able to "turn-it-off" like a light switch. Then it seems that the GGs feels that the GG should be able to tell the SO that he will suppress all forms of fem presentation including earrings or shaved legs in male mode.

GG's, it is a "two-way" street, and compromise is the key. :confused2:

That is my :2c:. On second thought that this post is worth 10 cents. :heehee:

:hiding:


There do seem to be some very Contradictory stances.

There are no clothing double standards, wear what you want, no one can stop you, just don't do it around me, because I have the right to tell you what to wear.:rolleyes:

It seems that this thread has really struck a nerve. Maybe you have some unresolved issues? :bonk:

I don't need to get a clue. I would suggest that you try to be a little more open-minded. The CD didn't choose to be a CD, he was born that way! It is also wrong to deny a person self expression. Would you like for your SO to dictate what you can and cannot wear? You should think more before hitting the 'Reply" button. :2c:



It is? are you kidding me? Pray tell me, just why should anyone be accepting? who said? with an attitude like that, it's no wonder whoever you're talking about, or whatever, isn't accepting at all, you really have no clue about the real world do you... selfish my ass... fgs get a clue :rolleyes: that has got to be the most insulting thing I've ever heard. Just because you're a CD, does not mean ANYONE has to accept it, it's your issue, no one elses and to call someone selfish for disliking it is beyond :lame:

Dee,

As usual you are right and really tend to think things through. Considering what you said, do you think that it may be acceptable for Barbara to have an accepted form of fem expression like earrings 24/7 since this is very common for men these days and would not cause teasing of your children? It is little things like that that can really be a big deal to a CD, although some GGs strictly forbid it even when half of the football teams or TV show hosts are wearing earrings. This was the intent of my original post.


Sometimes it's not about inflexibility. Sometimes, it has nothing to do with acceptance of the crossdresser. There are other reasons for asking our CD husband's to exercise some discretion.

Example, my family. We have 5 children who don't know about Barbara. This is something she and I have discussed, and we BOTH prefer to wait to tell the children. Therefore, dressing in public is an issue for us. Barbara has, for the most part, had to stay within the confines of our bedroom.

If we told the children tomorrow, then there are other concerns. I WILL NOT subject my children to teasing. It's hard enough being a child, they don't need to deal with teasing. If Barbara dressed in public, other children WOULD tease our children. I work with children, so I say with 100% confidence that this would absolutely happen. Barbara herself waited until after a day camp she was attending with our youngest son before waxing her legs for the very same reason. (edited to add....I know there are those who do live openly, and their children are aware. I appreciate and respect their bravery and honesty. I'm simply too much of a coward to do it)

Am I completely inflexible when it comes to putting our children in the way of possible teasing, misunderstanding, violence (yep, when kids are picked on because they (or their parents) are different it can and does lead to violence)? You'd better believe it. Barbara's need to express her femininity takes a HUGE backseat the the well-being of OUR children

To say that is complete inflexiblity for us to disallow our CD husbands any form of public femme expression is not taking into account the many other reasons that could lead to these decisions. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my love or acceptance for and of Barbara.

I have to echo Salandra and say that this is a decision for each couple to make individually on this issue as meets their own personal needs and situation.

Dee

Di
10-03-2007, 01:00 PM
It seems that this thread has really struck a nerve. Maybe you have some unresolved issues? :bonk:

I don't need to get a clue. I would suggest that you try to be a little more open-minded. The CD didn't choose to be a CD, he was born that way! It is also wrong to deny a person self expression. Would you like for your SO to dictate what you can and cannot wear? You should think more before hitting the 'Reply" button. :2c:

YOU have the unresloved issue...............someone telling you what you can or cannot wear......give me a break!!!!!!!!!!
YOU DO NEED A CLUE......I agree you were born this way.............SO why would you not iron this stuff out early in the relationship...why would you..being the cd........go into a relationship with someone that would tell you can't express yourself is beyond me........................that what we are trying to tell you.........................I would never tell my partner what they can or can not wear...or vise versa..............the point i'm trying to make.........Since you knew this.....were born as you stated....WHY would you go into a relationship with someone that would not see things the same way................................more or less lie to them.................spring it on them later......then later say...of why oh why.............................:censor::Pullhair:

KimberlyS
10-03-2007, 01:11 PM
OK, I am really going to stick my neck out here. Unless you told your wife before getting married that you were a CDer, AND she understood what that meant, she married a guy, a MALE person. Anything beyond that needs to be worked out with your wife via good communication and compromise. With most of the compromise on the side of the CDer. If all you can get for compromise out of your wife is that she knows you do it and you keep it out of sight of her and others, I think you should feel lucky. This was the very minimum that I asked from my wife when we started working through the CDing issues. I have been very very lucky and gotten more than that over time. But it did not come easy as there has been a lot, A LOT of communication, discussions, heated discussions, and learning how to communicate as a couple. And part of that communication I have needed to learn how to open up and share my feelings and talk to my wife about them. I am no where near where I should be with my communication skills and sharing my feelings with my wife. But I am a lot better, and because of it our marriage is the best it ever has been and much more intimate on all levels. I have also learned how to treat my wife better. Not just like the wife, but someone that I want to be married to. One should never stop Dating and Courting your wife, and treating her like she matters and how SHE LIKES to be treated.

A happy wife is much easier to communicate and discuss things with. And a happy wife will usually want their husband to be happy also. It is surprising what they will suggest and compromise on when they are the ones that bring it up and not being pushed by their husband to compromise.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 01:19 PM
Di,

I think that I understand what you are saying, so let me answer your questions. In my case, I suppressed the fact that I am a CD until about 5 years ago because of the shame and guilt that is placed upon males for being a CD. Males are taught at a very early age that feminine expression is abhorrent behavior and is akin to mental leprosy. Therefore, it was a source of great shame and guild. I was taught by my upbringing and society that I must suppress my fem side and I tried to do this and suppress it for 40 years. I went through bouts of severe depression that were ruining my relationship and livelyhood. Finally five years ago, I hit rock bottom and couldn't get any lower. Because of my mental state and the severe depression, the next step was six feet under. I didn't want to expose the fact that I am a CD, but it had to come out. I was very lucky that my wife and I have a great relationship and that she is accepting to a point. In other words, I can wear fem items in male mode such as fem hair, earrings, nail polish, but I cannot have a fem name and I can't try to completely pass as a woman. Therefore, I have acceptable boundaries that I can live within and be happy. On the other hand, there are many males on this forum that their SOs don't allow any fem expression, not even earrings in male mode! (If you read the double standard thread last night, one poster said this). That is what I think is unfair. Relationship is about understanding and compromise, not dictation or living in denial.

Regards,

Jamie :Peace:



YOU have the unresloved issue...............someone telling you what you can or cannot wear......give me a break!!!!!!!!!!
YOU DO NEED A CLUE......I agree you were born this way.............SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO why would you not iron this stuff out early in the relationship...why would you..being the cd........go into a relationship with someone that would tell you can't express yourself is beyond me........................that what we are trying to tell you.........................I would never tell my partner what they can or can not wear...or vise versa..............THE POINT WE ARE TRYING TO GET IN YOUR HEAD...........Since you knew this.....were born as you stated....WHY would you go into a relationship with someone that would not see things the same way................................more or less lie to them.................spring it on them later......then later say...of why oh why.............................:censor::Pullhair:

Tamara Croft
10-03-2007, 01:22 PM
It seems that this thread has really struck a nerve. Maybe you have some unresolved issues? :bonk:

I don't need to get a clue. I would suggest that you try to be a little more open-minded. The CD didn't choose to be a CD, he was born that way! It is also wrong to deny a person self expression. Would you like for your SO to dictate what you can and cannot wear? You should think more before hitting the 'Reply" button. :2c:I don't dictate ANYTHING to my partner EVER... and if I had unresolved issues, do you think I'd be an administrator of a CD forum, do you think Tam would be out? Do you think we'd go to events... and NO ONE would ever dictate anything to me either, I am my own person.... if people dictate to one another what they can and can't wear, then that's their problem.. not mine... my issue with you was what you said about people being selfish... now I'm going to go eat my dinner and go offline, before I say something I might just regret....

charllote34
10-03-2007, 01:32 PM
wow !! hot thread i have to find myself agreeing to what the GG,s are saying .Upfront and honest really is the best policy , but hey life is far from fair or perfect .Play the hand you have and make the best of it .

Di
10-03-2007, 01:44 PM
Di,

I think that I understand what you are saying, so let me answer your questions. In my case, I suppressed the fact that I am a CD until about 5 years ago because of the shame and guilt that is placed upon males for being a CD. Males are taught at a very early age that feminine expression is abhorrent behavior and is akin to mental leprosy. Therefore, it was a source of great shame and guild. I was taught by my upbringing and society that I must suppress my fem side and I tried to do this and suppress it for 40 years. I went through bouts of severe depression that were ruining my relationship and livelyhood. Finally five years ago, I hit rock bottom and couldn't get any lower. Because of my mental state and the severe depression, the next step was six feet under. I didn't want to expose the fact that I am a CD, but it had to come out. I was very lucky that my wife and I have a great relationship and that she is accepting to a point. In other words, I can wear fem items in male mode such as fem hair, earrings, nail polish, but I cannot have a fem name and I can't try to completely pass as a woman. Therefore, I have acceptable boundaries that I can live within and be happy. On the other hand, there are many males on this forum that their SOs don't allow any fem expression, not even earrings in male mode! this I think unfair Relationship is about understanding and compromise, not dictation or living in denial.

Regards,

Jamie :Peace:

Thanks .....I do understand what you said about being afraid to tell the truth and keepng it hidden..........I have a thing about lying.....to your partner :Angry3:You say it is selfish and wrong for the partner not to compromise.....I'm trying to say it is selfish and wrong for the partner not to know....there would be no issue if it is out in the open . Glad you talked to your wife and worked out something that works for the both of you:hugs:
My reply goes to the ones that lie to the s.o...but later can't understand why....the s.o. isn't jumping on the wagon. I am totally accepting . and we are out in the world......... I was coming from the pov of s.o.'s that find out yrs later....feeling betrayed, Is more or less what you orig described.

KimberlyS
10-03-2007, 01:49 PM
IMHO, most of us would be better off it we were all taught some communication skills, and especially some couples communications skills. And make it ok to share feelings, especially for guys. Then our spouse would be made aware of things in a timely fashion so they could be dealt with as a couple and not have it sprung on them some time later after the other person was ready to tell.

One of the hardest things I had to ever do was tell my wife that I could not deal with this on my own. That I was not the strong as a rock guy. Guess what? It has now make a lot of things easier to deal with and talk about. Two working together are much stronger than two working separately.

Dee Talbot
10-03-2007, 04:09 PM
Dee,

As usual you are right and really tend to think things through. Considering what you said, do you think that it may be acceptable for Barbara to have an accepted form of fem expression like earrings 24/7 since this is very common for men these days and would not cause teasing of your children? It is little things like that that can really be a big deal to a CD, although some GGs strictly forbid it even when half of the football teams or TV show hosts are wearing earrings. This was the intent of my original post.As a matter of fact, Barbara has no desire to pierce her ears. This has never been an issue with me. Heck, my 61 year old father pierced his ears. And this only recently.

However, surprisingly, in our little conservative religious bedroom suburban community....earrings would stand out. A masculine stud..maybe not so (although it would raise eyebrows at church). But any type of femme earring would be considered beyond the pale.

We have found other ways for Barbara to express herself. Nail polish is one. Even a clear nail polish, which is hardly noticable, helps Barb to express herself. We usually do a pale pink though. The children delight in seeing Daddy with scarlet painted toenails. And why not? Their big brother has had his nails polished off and on courtesy of various girlfriends over the years. To my kids, it's just something people in a relationship do for fun. (I did it to all of my boyfriends when I was a teen)

Barbara is free to shave whatever part of her body she likes. We have found that no one notices or cares.

Barbara takes delight in wearing "stealth clothes" to church. Women's slacks, trouser socks, a womans jacket.

All of these are outward expressions that I have no problem with. I can empathize with those women who are uncomfortable with it. And, if at ANY point, it impacted the children.....again I would put my foot down. Children first and always first.

Dee

Edited to add*** I did understand the original intent of your post. This is just my own observation and feeling on the subject. (And it's not a problem for Barb & I since we both agree on the level of her expression, and are willing to compromise with each other. I just wanted to point out that there may be more to the "inflexibility issue" than meets the eye. To the outside observer it may seem cut and dried, black and white. To the participant....it's probably much more complex than simple expression of self.

Ema1234 GG
10-03-2007, 04:26 PM
Ok I'm pretty annoyed right now but you know what I don't care. Why some people on this site feel they have a right to dictate to other people what they should and shouldn't do in their relationship is beyond me.

I'm gonna stick my neck out right now and I really couldn't care less. You talk about shaving legs, well yes my partner would probably like to do that but I wouldn't want him to do it, infact I'd probably be extremely pissed off about it.

"Oh but that's terrible, you're denaying him his self expression, how dare you stop him doing such a thing."

Well what about my feelings on the matter? Do they not matter? FFS I like hairy legs on men, I like body hair, I'm physically attracted to manly men. But does that not matter? Oh no, your feelings on that matter don't count, how dare I stop him being able to express this.

But do you know what we do, we compromise. He thins out his leg hair, I'm ok because he still has it (or atleast some of it) and he's ok because it's nowhere near as hairy as it would be naturally.

And you know what? I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about the fact that I'm stopping my partner having this part of his self expression. It's our relationship and it's us who has to deal with it, not anyone else on here.

Please, don't try and dictate to other people what they should and shouldn't do in their own relationships. It's up to them to sort it out, if they really aren't happy they can walk away.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 05:59 PM
Di,

Thankyou for your response. I agree that it is wrong to lie to your SO and to keep this part of me hidden from her. However, from my perspective I was not lying. I honestly thought that I could put the Pink Monster back in her cage and forever refrain from crossdressing. I thought that the relationship with my then girlfriend and now wife would have "fixed-me" and therefore I would not have the need to CD anymore. By the way, this is my first marriage and I have not been through these issues before. As we have all found, it is not possible to keep the Pink Monster locked in the cage and maintain mental and physical health and therefore it had to come out. When it did come out, I was very ashamed about having kept this secret from my wife and for the pain that it could cause her. I wish there was some way to make GGs understand that some CDs are so delusional that they actually believe that they can put the Pink Monster in a cage and never crossdress again. In fact, the first time that the Pink Monster emerges and a little boy is caught by his mom or dad, he is taught very quickly that the Pink Monster belongs in a cage and the key is to be thrown away! Boys and men are programmed with this at an early age and then they are shamed if they can't keep it under control.

Respectfully,



:hugs: Jamie



Thanks .....I do understand what you said about being afraid to tell the truth and keepng it hidden..........I have a thing about lying.....to your partner :Angry3:You say it is selfish and wrong for the partner not to compromise.....I'm trying to say it is selfish and wrong for the partner not to know....there would be no issue if it is out in the open . Glad you talked to your wife and worked out something that works for the both of you:hugs:
My reply goes to the ones that lie to the s.o...but later can't understand why....the s.o. isn't jumping on the wagon. I am totally accepting . and we are out in the world......... I was coming from the pov of s.o.'s that find out yrs later....feeling betrayed, Is more or less what you orig described.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 06:08 PM
Tamara,

I want to publically apologize to you for my improper statement to you regarding having "unresolved issues" and I hope that you will please accept my apology. :sorry:

I understand you point of view and that it is wrong to lie and deceive your SO, however, I do believe that compromise is what is needed to make a relationship work. That is what my wife and I do. I have limits that we have mutually agreed upon and I respect those limits. For example, we agreed that I will use my real name and not have a fem name and that I will not go "all the way" with the dressing. She is ok with a fem-guy, but not ok if I adopt a completely fem persona. On the other hand, if I were not allowed any form of feminine expression, I would have to leave the marriage for my own sanity.

:hugs: Jamie


I don't dictate ANYTHING to my partner EVER... and if I had unresolved issues, do you think I'd be an administrator of a CD forum, do you think Tam would be out? Do you think we'd go to events... and NO ONE would ever dictate anything to me either, I am my own person.... if people dictate to one another what they can and can't wear, then that's their problem.. not mine... my issue with you was what you said about people being selfish... now I'm going to go eat my dinner and go offline, before I say something I might just regret....

MJ
10-03-2007, 06:17 PM
i should not say this... but Honesty upfront is the key , if you did not tell your partner up front then if she is still with you... you should be thankful and in most cases grateful , and yes what she says goes .... be thankful for what you have and can do ... i never told the one i love and i lost everything ,
and some complain because of restrictions ... be thankful for what you have

RobertaFermina
10-03-2007, 06:45 PM
We are as sick as our secrets.:bonk:

If I fear the reaction of society to the truth of my life, and I hide the "inconvenient truths", then I am accepting a life with secrets and participate with society in censoring the truth.:bonk::bonk:


I choose a world of lies, populated with less than whole human beings.:hypnotized:

Any wonder there is confusion, mistrust and war?:nono:

ENOUGH OF THAT!

I choose the confusion that comes from being honest and frustrating conventional gender stereotypes over the confusion that comes from living with secerts. With secrets, life does not add up, it has fault zones and swamps of facetiousness and inauthenticity....lies.



If your SO wants you to live less than whole life, decide what hurts more...sharing your whole life with nobody, or sharing part of your life with somebody:devil:

Sadly, especially if you have children, the remedies are worse than the problem.

Better to come out to the SO on day 1....save the heartache and bitterness that is bound to follow.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

Zee
10-03-2007, 06:57 PM
Honesty is core in any relationship. However, there are "inflexible" view points.

Some will say that you have to wear what others tell you, while others say that that view is inflexible. In either case, each are being inflexible.

When it really comes down to it, idealy, it would be nice for everyone to be able to wear anything they want to. Unfortunately, due to social issues, this is not the case.

Does it really matter that a woman can wear mens clothing at any time? Does it really matter that a man wants to wear womens clothing from time to time? In my honest and humble opinion, this is a relatively small issue compared to the rest of reality.

Many women think that if a man wants to wear womens clothing, then he isn't a man. This is by far the most ignorant view about crossdressing that I can think of. Of course the man is still a man. So what if he likes silky, smooth clothing. He is still the same person in or out clothing just the same way a woman is. Unless that man is seriously considering SRS, the view that he isn't the same man is the most dispicible double standard I have encountered.

Why is it that you never see men only gyms? You see women only gyms. Why is it that you hardly ever see nice mens clothing in wal mart? Women get over three quarters of that retail space. Why is it that magazines have 80% womens clothing and 5% for men? Why is it that in a business environment, a man can't wear shorts, but a woman can. I can go on and on, but you get the general drift.

Any relationship requires compromise on every issue. It is a fact of life. It is unfair to pose absolutes on anyone in any relationship. If either the man or the woman are unable to reach compromises, counselling is definately in order. An objective third opinion is what would be needed.

Be that as it may, it should not matter what other people think. Each person in every relationship should only care about what their SO thinks and feels. This goes for BOTH parties. And you know what... its really a small issue. Honesty and compromise is the best thing a relationship could have. Just don't sweat the small stuff...

angelfire
10-03-2007, 08:34 PM
This thread is the exact reason I intend to tell my girlfriend I CD before we even consider marriage. I want to learn from others' experiences on here and not have to go through it myself. From what I've seen, little to no good has come in the long term from not sharing this info early on in the relationship (early on = pre-engagement in my view). If it isn't the CDing that gets them, it is that fact that you hid a part of yourself and lived a lie for the past X number of years. Even when I came out to my parents, my mom was upset because she always said I could share anything, and I hadn't told them up until then, so she doesn't believe in keeping secrets from family. I believe SOs are the same way. If they don't know until well into the marriage, then they will either try to make it work through compromise, or just flat out end it in most cases. This can all be avoided by sharing the info before you are 'bound' to each other.

battybattybats
10-03-2007, 09:08 PM
I think if you would start out the relationship being 100 percent truthful.....then you would not end up with a partner that would want you to be 100 percent masculine ......:Angry3:

Hmm it'd be nice wouldn't it.
And yet when a man with upper back length long hair, long painted findernails and wears several womens tops as male tops and who, just a week after the first date, mentions they have occassionally crossdressed in the past, doesn't feel the need to right now but that the desire to might return in the future then that's exactly what would happen wouldn't you?

But instead there are constant whines about hair, fingernails, various things that 'look gay' or 'only gay guys do' and a constant push to masculanise let alone the suicide threats and constant arguments when crossdressing comes up.


read my answer above....AND YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME.......this coming from someone who wants to wear whatever they want....and you would put restrictions on your partner:rolleyes:

What is wrong with that? Equal freedom or equal restriction? A preferance for the first but failing that insistance on the latter. That I think perfectly matches the notion of fairness. How could it not be?

As for embarassment in public... that is an interesting point and one that I have pondered at legth without coming to a firm conclusion. That said I think it is more than fair for an SO to ask their partner not to change their public appearance radically in a setting that may adversely affect them socially. However if the partner is just maintaining their appearance (like my long hair and long black painted nails.. we are both goths) then it should only be particularly important occassions when this is done so (For example I cut my nails and removed the polish for her best friends wedding which I thought was fair enough, of course I was asked to do this and so was willing to go to very great lengths because it was a request. If I was told to I would not have done so.).

There seems a lot of hostility being flung around about acceptance and selfishness. Well selfishness is puting ones own desires above the needs of others.. and when ones needs or desires are considered more important than anothers needs or desires for no other reason than they are your own. At what point does the feelings of others dictate restrict or influence the choices of someone over their own body? Legally, morally and ethically (outside of communist/socialist philosophies where the states/groups rights are more important than individual civil/human rights) the answer is almost none. However it would be a callous CD who ignores a fair request based on their partners feelings and it would be a callous GG who does likewise.

Do CDs deserve acceptance? Why wouldn't they? Why would they deserve less acceptance than anyone else? Aren't accepting and tolerating diversity and differance important life skills and the duty of everyone? Don't you have to respect the differences of others if you want them to respect your differances? If a cd was not out to their partner before marriage that is a seperate issue isn't it?


Dee Talbot: Example, my family. We have 5 children who don't know about Barbara. This is something she and I have discussed, and we BOTH prefer to wait to tell the children. Therefore, dressing in public is an issue for us. Barbara has, for the most part, had to stay within the confines of our bedroom.

If we told the children tomorrow, then there are other concerns. I WILL NOT subject my children to teasing. It's hard enough being a child, they don't need to deal with teasing. If Barbara dressed in public, other children WOULD tease our children. I work with children, so I say with 100% confidence that this would absolutely happen. Barbara herself waited until after a day camp she was attending with our youngest son before waxing her legs for the very same reason. (edited to add....I know there are those who do live openly, and their children are aware. I appreciate and respect their bravery and honesty. I'm simply too much of a coward to do it)

Am I completely inflexible when it comes to putting our children in the way of possible teasing, misunderstanding, violence (yep, when kids are picked on because they (or their parents) are different it can and does lead to violence)? You'd better believe it. Barbara's need to express her femininity takes a HUGE backseat the the well-being of OUR children


The notion of protecting children from teasing.. teasing because of being different is something I have a lot of personal experience with. Because of my cheekbones and eye shape in one tiny rural town I lived in the other kids thought I was chinese so I copped a lot of racism. The next, slightly bigger town was very anti-intellectual so my habit of reading in public made me a target. It was also homophobic so my not liking footbal and motor vehicles had many assume I was gay and so I suffered from that too. Later in high school i refused to conform even further and the more I was spat on, the more my posssessions were destroyed, the more I was assaulted, the more I was almost stabbed or almost run over on my way home from school the more I realised how important it was to be myself and not give in to schoolyard terrorism. I respect anyones desire to protect their children from such violence, physical and psychological but with the huge rates of bullying in schools reducing their difference may not be enough. Also by reducing difference what lessons are being taught? That it's ok to be different? That its important to stand up for others? There are many anti-bullying programs some of which are quite successful. I don't know if protecting children from being a target because of differance is good for either the children or the rest of the community but I respect your intentions and that the decision on how best to try and go about it is yours.

Take a deep breath everyone please. :hugs:

Dee Talbot
10-03-2007, 09:53 PM
I don't know if protecting children from being a target because of differance is good for either the children or the rest of the community I don't disagree with you. I think children today are very overprotected. And, when we feel that our children...and we...are ready to have this discussion, we will. But, until we do....Barbara and I just go on picture dates further from the house. Or while the kids are at school. And this was not an issue that either of us had to compromise on. We are 100% in agreement. No stifling Barbara's expression at all. We just find ways to make it work.

I think diversity can be taught a variety of ways. We live in a neighborhood that looks like a 1950's TV show. There ain't a whole lot of diversity here :o So we have had to be creative with teaching important lessons to our children. I am pretty proud of the job we have done so far. I NEVER worry that my children are going to spew hate speech or behavior, because they have been taught to treat EVERYONE with kindness. Different doesn't mean wrong....it just means...different. And that's OK. I have never seen my children turn from someone different, because they were different. I am proud to say that my children are the type to reach out the hand of friendship to everyone.

I dealt with teasing while growing up too. So much so, that I spent years on the couch coming to grips with the damage done. It's a personal thing, but seeing or hearing of my kids being teased brings out the Mama Bear in me. I just can't take it. I am aware that it is my baggage, but there it is.

Interestingly, it's our 1 year old....with no concerns about teasing, who is included in Dad's dressing adventures. We are convinced that she is going to have some oddly conflicted memories about Mom and Dad and that red-haired broad who sometimes visited.....but never when Dad was around. Kinda like Superman and Clark Kent. :D

Dee

Tamara Croft
10-04-2007, 08:22 AM
Tamara,

I want to publically apologize to you for my improper statement to you regarding having "unresolved issues" and I hope that you will please accept my apology. :sorry:Thank you, and apology accepted :hugs: I do understand the need for compromise and I also understand the need to keep things a secret from family etc. I understand, because a while back, Tam was on the radio discussing his secret on air and the things she said were really heartbreaking, it made me realise how hard it is for a CD to come out to partners/wives/husbands etc...

But I also know how hard it is for a partner/wife/husband etc to find out early on in the relationship, it isn't easy, especially when you have had no knowledge previously that this even existed. I can tell you, I was completely floored when I found out and it took 5 years to even start understanding the actual meaning of being transgendered. I can really understand those that won't accept it, can't get their heads around it and despise it, because I've been there, prayed it would just go away, but it doesn't. I think the majority of people who don't accept it have no information to help them, their partners just drop the bombshell and that's it. They have no one to talk to, they keep it to themselves because they feel ashamed and society doesn't help by making the transgendered look bad all the time.

When we find out, it's like we're shoved in the closet with them, it's hard not having anyone to talk to about it, so when Tam showed me this forum 3 years ago, it was like a God send to me, I was finally able to figure out what it all meant. I just wish other people would give their partners/wives/husbands etc more information, so they can at least start understanding and know they aren't alone, that's how it feels for a lot of people. Does that make sense?

Kerry Owens
10-04-2007, 08:27 AM
The only thing I will say, and it's simple children have enough grief now-a-days in growing up. To add the vicious teasing that will happen when a parent is identified as "different" is to ignore reality. That child will be ripped apart by the other kids socially, and emotionally. Those kids have no hesitation in attacks.
I know, I survived a similar childhood with meaness around me like a shark tank. Why? because my mom had a "problem". Duh, protecting the kids from the teasing and attacks is not wrong!

Sheila
10-04-2007, 08:50 AM
If a cd was not out to their partner before marriage that is a seperate issue isn't it?

and that is why so many SO's have problems in coming to terms with CDing, so many of us just didn't know prior to marriage or entering into a living partnership.

And even if you knew prior to entering into marriage/fulltime relationship .............. it does not automatically gaurantee it will work out just because you know .............. knowing about something and living with it 24/7 can be a very different thing:straightface: all we can do is try and if it dosen't work out then you can at least say we tried but !!!!!!!!

Karren H
10-04-2007, 08:51 AM
It still amazes me that crossdressers continue to whine that their SO's are so mean for not accepting them.. Her values are her values and that's not going to change just because yours have.. Or you poped out of the closet (Surprise!!!!). She didn't sign up for this... So why should she have to accept the new you? If my wife started wearing male clothing (and not womans jeans....), not shaving, penciling in a mustache, and shoving a sock down her pants I'd sure as hell be horrified!! Not what I signed up for!! So what's the difference!!!

The SO's here are already on the bandwagon to varying degrees so were not hearing from the ones you speak of!! But its not their fault!! I don't blame my wife for how she feels!! So get over it..

Karren

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-04-2007, 09:08 AM
Is it complete selfishness and inflexibility when a gg will not allow her SO to wear any article of feminine attire in public even if it is just one thing?

For example,

It has come to my attention that some GGs will leave their SOs is they want to wear shaved legs or earrings in public. They insist on a complete and 100 percent masculine appearance. I find this very interesting and would like to hear thoughts on this subject.

:2c: Jamie

I think a lot of times it boils down to trans issues in general being a 'pretty girls' and 'manly men' club.

For instance, if one actually 'looks' like a woman and only gets a glance here and there. It seems more often OK. Look like Shrek in a dress and cause people slamming on their brakes and kids crying, theres a problem.

I've seen the same in public with women presenting as masculine. The more they fit 'the norm', fairly masculine face, minimally female frame, etc,. people seem to merely glance. Take another woman with a guy haircut, guy clothes and she has a fairly voluptuous build and unmistakable female facial features, she gets the dirty looks.

Look around online and more often then not, partners who are very accepting of 'going out' do not have trans-partners who fit the Shrek model.

So our ability to 'fit' the appearance of a target gender without drawing negative attention may very well factor into partner acceptance. And the answer to that isn't just as simple as stating our opinion. It's very difficult to be objective and remove your passion, bias, etc. from questions like that. If not, shrinks wouldn't have a job.

So this might imply correlation between the non-trans partners perception of a negative public reaction, and their own acceptance level.

As for kids factoring in and one has unresolved issues, nature provided this thing called an orgasm to call attention to the fact that we're probably fertilizing an egg. Fertilize an egg and you now have a group of three or more voters. Thus, its quite logical to assume you will be out voted.

Di
10-04-2007, 09:18 AM
At first your thread angered me ( the orig post)and I was trying to give an s.o.'s P O V.......and after reading your heart breaking post about how it feels to have to hid part of your self for survival and talking it over with my partner. I think I have come to an even more understanding and appreciation.......hope others have too .....looking at both partners opinions on this.

I am very lucky...never had to endure anything like this( having to hide part of your life or feeling betrayed)....and at first this post tripped my trigger in a bad way...........it now is letting everyone talk and learn.:hugs:

Kris
10-04-2007, 12:28 PM
It still amazes me that crossdressers continue to whine that their SO's are so mean for not accepting them.. Her values are her values and that's not going to change just because yours have.. Or you poped out of the closet (Surprise!!!!). She didn't sign up for this... So why should she have to accept the new you? If my wife started wearing male clothing (and not womans jeans....), not shaving, penciling in a mustache, and shoving a sock down her pants I'd sure as hell be horrified!! Not what I signed up for!! So what's the difference!!!

The SO's here are already on the bandwagon to varying degrees so were not hearing from the ones you speak of!! But its not their fault!! I don't blame my wife for how she feels!! So get over it..

Karren

I just wanted to say thank you Karren...... I think that it is wonderful that you see how hard this is for some female at birth women... and that you can put the shoe on the other foot. Sometimes, all I read here is that there is no way to put the shoe on the other foot for a CD - especially if they are in the middle of a pink fog attack.

:hugs: Kris

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-04-2007, 01:02 PM
The reality is that we'll never reach a conclusion because the group is too diverse and consequently their motivation for trans-behavior too varied. Theres been too much rhetoric thrown about with the intended purpose of suppressing the opposing viewpoint or eliciting an irrational response. It actually isn't possible to conduct a productive, rational debate on an internet forum.

Tamara Croft
10-04-2007, 02:54 PM
The reality is that we'll never reach a conclusion because the group is too diverse and consequently their motivation for trans-behavior too varied. Theres been too much rhetoric thrown about with the intended purpose of suppressing the opposing viewpoint or eliciting an irrational response. It actually isn't possible to conduct a productive, rational debate on an internet forum.Maybe if people worded threads in a rational way, instead of writing in such a way, it becomes insulting, then maybe, just maybe we could have a rational, productive debate.

I don't however agree, we (the GG's) have plenty of discussions in the GG forum, they are always rational, productive and worded in ways that we don't take offense too, the Transmen forum is always productive and interesting, maybe it's the majority of MTF's with the rational behaviour problem eh? and just ponder that before you go jumping down my throat....

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-04-2007, 03:16 PM
Reread my posts, their quite rational from a debate standpoint. I always try to refrain from rhetoric such as 'whining', etc. I try to avoid logical fallacies and unscientific terms such as 'pink fog'. I also do my best to debate from a place of value neutrality.


The reality is that we'll never reach a conclusion because the group is too diverse and consequently their motivation for trans-behavior too varied. Theres been too much rhetoric thrown about with the intended purpose of suppressing the opposing viewpoint or eliciting an irrational response. It actually isn't possible to conduct a productive, rational debate on an internet forum.

docrobbysherry
10-04-2007, 04:12 PM
Whenever I refer to Mother "F"err's, I just abbreviate them MF's. Wondered why U added a "T"?
RS

Maybe if people worded threads in a rational way, instead of writing in such a way, it becomes insulting, then maybe, just maybe we could have a rational, productive debate.

I don't however agree, we (the GG's) have plenty of discussions in the GG forum, they are always rational, productive and worded in ways that we don't take offense too, the Transmen forum is always productive and interesting, maybe it's the majority of MTF's with the rational behaviour problem eh? and just ponder that before you go jumping down my throat....

Karren H
10-04-2007, 04:21 PM
I just wanted to say thank you Karren...... I think that it is wonderful that you see how hard this is for some female at birth women... and that you can put the shoe on the other foot. Sometimes, all I read here is that there is no way to put the shoe on the other foot for a CD - especially if they are in the middle of a pink fog attack.

:hugs: Kris

Your welcome, Kris... Sometimes I scare myself.. But God Love'em..... ... Don't ya just love a good fight? Hehe. :D

Karren

Kris
10-04-2007, 04:23 PM
Whenever I refer to Mother "F"err's, I just abbreviate them MF's. Wondered why U added a "T"?
RS

UN F'ING BELIEVABLE MaleToFemale

DUH! This just reinforces that most people are cattle..

Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! ! ! ! ! !

Kieron Andrew
10-04-2007, 04:24 PM
UN F'ING BELIEVABLE MaleToFemale
:lol2: sorry this comment just made me smile lol

Kris
10-04-2007, 04:55 PM
Your welcome, Kris... Sometimes I scare myself.. But God Love'em..... ... Don't ya just love a good fight? Hehe. :D

Karren

Oh honey you have no idea.. this fight is starting to scare me. These people can vote.....

I'm afraid we are doomed.

:hugs: Kris

Zee
10-04-2007, 05:03 PM
Oh My! Emotions seem to be running a bit high here.

It is NO harder for the woman in a relationship who finds her SO is a crossdresser than it is for the man who has had to hide it since birth. Different sides of the same coin. Inflexibility is bred into the situation when neither party seems to understand the others view point in a fair and objective way.

So, should you find it impossible to leave the angst out of your "talk" with your SO (or others in any situation), then it is incumbent upon you to re-evaluate the situation and approach the subject in a more contemplative, objective oriented, logical way.

The best result comes from everyone doing what is best for themselves and the group they are involved with. When emotions start running high, take a step back, re-group, re-evalutate, take a breath, think it through to a logical conclusion and begin again.

To fire off replies without thinking anything through is the best way to alienate people.

Like mom used to say (or was it Thumpers mom), if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Today's world is completely opposite, everyone has something to gripe about and if you don't agree with said gripe, you are branded and sent out as an outcast.

Tolerance of ideas, ideals, preferences, etc, should be something we ALL practice, not just preach. It is not the end of the world if someone disagrees with you. And more importantly, it is definately not worth getting angry over, no matter what. Obviously, you should defend yourself if you are attacked (and I mean legitimately, not via some narcissistic view of yourself).

If everyone could just relax, enjoy life and be more open minded, we would have a lot less conflict here and in the world abroad. It is ALL small stuff after all.

battybattybats
10-04-2007, 07:48 PM
I just wanted to say thank you Karren...... I think that it is wonderful that you see how hard this is for some female at birth women... and that you can put the shoe on the other foot. Sometimes, all I read here is that there is no way to put the shoe on the other foot for a CD - especially if they are in the middle of a pink fog attack.

:hugs: Kris

I do recognise that this is hard.
Just as I also recognise that it is hard for a homophobic person to discover their child is gay. Just like it is hard for a racist who has grown up in a racist family and a racist society to then accept their sister marrying an aboriginal man. I knew one racist who became suicidal when he discovered he had a jewish ancestor. These things were all hard. It was also hard for a fundamentalist christian I went to school with when they started teaching evolution in class. He was so distraught when he found out about the development of different strains of disease and vaccination and how that conflicted with what he had grown up believing. I found him crying in a dark corner of the library where I usually went to get some peace and consoled him as best I could, telling him he needn't give up his religion (or keep it if that was his choice) just because part of what he'd 'known' all his life didn't match the evidence of the real world.

Yes it is hard. It is hard but it is right. Shedding yourself of racism sexism and homophobia is right. Accepting gay family members is right. Accepting people of different race into your family is right and accepting crossdressing is right. Not easy. Definately not easy. Sure not everyone can do it. I met plenty of elderly folk who could never accept that other races were equal, that men and women were equal, that homosexuality isn't a physical disease or mental illness. Several of them have gone to the grave distraught with the directions society has taken and unable to reconsile themselves to it.

I'm not putting unaccepting GGs down by mentioning these other things that the majority of society has managed to handle.. I am calling for greater compassion for everyone. Who has not believed something that was wrong? Who has not held at least one bigoted opinion over their life?

Do CDs deserve acceptance? Unequivocally yes. Yes they do. Just as women in the workforce or the universities did. Just as black people in the same school as white people do. Gays do, Jews do, Gypsies do (and not many get it still!), Muslims do, Christians do, Atheists do, Nerds do.. everyone whose actions and nature are ethical deserves acceptance and respect. The more marginalised, the more oppressed they are the more they will crave it and the less they will get it.

To put the shoe on the other foot for CDs just search for a persons past bigotry.. we all have at least a bit somewhere, we pick it up unconciously. Some have fought it and won, some fought it and lost, some never fought it at all and harbour it still. For almost everyone it is a hard fought battle as the concious mind has to constantly overide the unconcious reflex until the unconcious learns the new reflex.

I'm reminded of both my father and also my best friend. Both are generally good people. Both are quite open-minded, accepting and decent. Both are in favour of equal rights for everyone, including gays. Yet both can't handle seeing open acts of homosexual romance. The holding hands or kissing that anyone else can do in public freaks them out, they don't appose it but they can't bear to see it. I understand it is hard for them but that isn't any reason for restricting gays from holding hands or kissing in public like straight people can is it? Instead they have to acclimatise themselves to the experience.. slowly but surely, if they can.

Dee Talbot
10-04-2007, 08:08 PM
Do CDs deserve acceptance? Unequivocally yes. Yes they do.I agree 100% that acceptance is deserved. No question in my mind. But....and this is for the sake of discussion only....Does acceptance mean participation? I don't feel that I am homophobic. The man who helped raise me is Gay, and he would b-slap anyone who thought I was homophobic...he didn't raise me that way. But, does my acceptance of Gays and Lesbians mean that I have to have an intimate homosexual relationship? Maybe, I just don't swing that way. It in no way means that I don't accept them. I'm just not oriented that way.

So, is it possible to accept a CD, while still feeling that one doesn't necessarily wish to participate? Can I say to my SO, "Yes, I know you dress. I will not stand in your way. I support your right to express yourself. I'm just not into it myself. So while you are dressed, I'm just going to go to a scrapbooking class."? Can acceptance only be defined by a willingness to share clothing, give makeup tips and/or share intimacy while our SO is dressed? (again...just a discussion point..don't attack me please :heehee:)

I know that there are some CD's who have more acceptance than others here. There are some CD's who are grateful for the amount, however small, they receive. There are some CD's who are given the world and ask for more (I know, I know...human nature). Who is to say what defines acceptance?


Dee

battybattybats
10-04-2007, 08:38 PM
I agree 100% that acceptance is deserved. No question in my mind. But....and this is for the sake of discussion only....Does acceptance mean participation? ...

So, is it possible to accept a CD, while still feeling that one doesn't necessarily wish to participate? Can I say to my SO, "Yes, I know you dress. I will not stand in your way. I support your right to express yourself. I'm just not into it myself. So while you are dressed, I'm just going to go to a scrapbooking class."? Can acceptance only be defined by a willingness to share clothing, give makeup tips and/or share intimacy while our SO is dressed? (again...just a discussion point..don't attack me please :heehee:)

Ethically. The answer is yes. Yes you can accept without participating so long as the non participation wasn't used to prevent the act (say by not allowing enough seperate time for the act). It is perfectly fine for you to choose to not be a part of the activity as it's your right.


I know that there are some CD's who have more acceptance than others here. There are some CD's who are grateful for the amount, however small, they receive. There are some CD's who are given the world and ask for more (I know, I know...human nature). Who is to say what defines acceptance?

Is it good in the long term for a relationship for people to keep such a big part of themselves seperate? Hmm.. I suppose it depends. Just because some people don't get any acceptance at all doesn't mean that someone who finds that this is a big part of their everyday self identity should be happy with dressing once every 3 months in total secrecy from a hidden stash for which nothing new shall ever be bought for (which is what my girlfriend considers a very charitable comjpromise on her part). For some people keeping different hobbies and social contacts have been a very positive thing for their relationship. But with hair removal and other matters that isn't necessarily going to be as easy for some couples as it might be for others.

Some CDs may feel an aching need to be seen by their partner, to be loved totally rather than just for their masculine role.
For them participation may be an important thing for them.. however that involves mutual consent and so, from the ethical rights perspective it is something that can be asked for but never demanded, never expected.

In any case it is hardly acceptance if the subject is a taboo. a don't ask don't tell policy. However that doesn't mean that participation is mandatory.

Zee
10-04-2007, 08:49 PM
Does acceptance mean participation? I don't feel that I am homophobic. The man who helped raise me is Gay, and he would b-slap anyone who thought I was homophobic...he didn't raise me that way. But, does my acceptance of Gays and Lesbians mean that I have to have an intimate homosexual relationship? Maybe, I just don't swing that way. It in no way means that I don't accept them. I'm just not oriented that way.

So, is it possible to accept a CD, while still feeling that one doesn't necessarily wish to participate? Can I say to my SO, "Yes, I know you dress. I will not stand in your way. I support your right to express yourself. I'm just not into it myself. So while you are dressed, I'm just going to go to a scrapbooking class."? Can acceptance only be defined by a willingness to share clothing, give makeup tips and/or share intimacy while our SO is dressed? (again...just a discussion point..don't attack me please :heehee:)




Dee

Absolutely. Just because you can be tolerant of an idea does not mean you have to be a part of that idea. This, in my opinion, is the essence of acceptance.

Example, I am not gay, but I wont stand in the way of someone who is. I wont put that person down or talk about his life style negatively. I can respect that individual as a person, but it doesn't mean I have to participate in his activities. Thats what makes democracy work. The freedom to choose and not be persecuted by that choice. Granted some people take that to the extreme which is why the law is around, but you get the idea.

There is no greater freedom than that of choice. You remove that from any individual and it destroys that individual.

Dee Talbot
10-04-2007, 09:05 PM
Ethically. The answer is yes. Yes you can accept without participating so long as the non participation wasn't used to prevent the act (say by not allowing enough seperate time for the act). It is perfectly fine for you to choose to not be a part of the activity as it's your right. I appreciate you saying this. It's not my personal choice of acceptance level, but I don't think we should negate that simple acceptance may be the only acceptance some CD's can get from their SO's.



Is it good in the long term for a relationship for people to keep such a big part of themselves seperate? I absolutely don't think it's a good idea to do this. I know that, the more Barb and I "do our own thing", the harder it becomes to find things that are "our thing". But, I also understand that this is the way some marriages are. Not for me, but it seems to work in some marriages.

Do you remember or ever see the episode of Mad About You, where Paul started sleeping on the couch because he was watching TV...and Jaime stayed in the bed and talked to her sister on the phone or read magazines? In the end, they decided that this was a bad idea. That marriage needed to be a shared experience and too much alone time wasn't healthy. Well, I agree with this philosophy.



Some CDs may feel an aching need to be seen by their partner, to be loved totally rather than just for their masculine role.
For them participation may be an important thing for them.. however that involves mutual consent and so, from the ethical rights perspective it is something that can be asked for but never demanded, never expected. When Barb came out to me, she misunderstood the acceptance I was offering and told me she was putting Barb back in the closet. My heart broke because that wasn't what I wanted. Not what she wanted. And it was only with me trying very very hard to communicate my acceptance that Barb heard my words. She was willing to give up dressing if I didn't want to participate. My acceptance wasn't enough, so I understand exactly what you are saying here. I can't get inside the mind of a CD to FEEL that need. But, I understand. And I appreciate that you agree that this involves mutual consent----freely given, not demanded


In any case it is hardly acceptance if the subject is a taboo. a don't ask don't tell policy. However that doesn't mean that participation is mandatory. Again, I agree with you. I think that in any marriage, lack of communication on any issue can only erode the fabric of the marriage. I feel real sorrow for the CD's who can't discuss this with their SO's. But, I also feel sorrow for the SO's. I feel sorrow for the fear and sadness that they must also be feeling.



What I take from this discussion is that we are both agreeing on the issue, just with a different perspective....if that makes sense. I think we both seek the same end result, we may just take slightly different paths to reach the destination.

Dee

(Zee, you posted while I was posting so I didn't catch your thought until after I hit enter. Thank you for your answer too. It was very well thought out. BTW...it's very hard for me to think of you as Zee, as a very good GG friend of mine is a Zee. Do you mind that everytime I see you post, I think of a Filipino woman who is around my size and has a biting and intelligent wit :) ?)

Jazzmine
10-04-2007, 09:08 PM
I totally agree with you Karren.

If the tables were turned on me (my SO goes ftm) then I am sure I would need to negotiate a truce! I would feel totally uncomfortable holding hands with my wife in public were she dressed like a male when I was as well, especially with the kids in tow!
How's that for a double standard! At least I admit it!

Any restrictions are obviously individual to your relationship but empathy for the SO is paramount here!
Hugs Jazzmine

battybattybats
10-04-2007, 09:15 PM
What I take from this discussion is that we are both agreeing on the issue, just with a different perspective....if that makes sense. I think we both seek the same end result, we may just take slightly different paths to reach the destination.

Dee

This is the only bit of what you have said say that I don't completely get. :D
We seem to agree on the same conclusions of ethics philosophy. We seem to agree on the practical relationship things too. We both are looking at the same thing from our own different personal experiences and also the experiences of others. Beyond that what is different about our paths?

:hugs:

Dee Talbot
10-04-2007, 09:25 PM
This is the only bit of what you have said say that I don't completely get. :D
We seem to agree on the same conclusions of ethics philosophy. We seem to agree on the practical relationship things too. We both are looking at the same thing from our own different personal experiences and also the experiences of others. Beyond that what is different about our paths?

:hugs:It's those different personal experiences you mention that make our paths different. Our paths may run parallel to each other, but they are ultimately different. And I happen to think this is a good thing. It's our different personal experiences that shape what we bring to the discussion. We can agree 100% on everything but still be looking at it through different eyes. And it's by sharing these personal experiences that we can affect compassion and understanding for each other. Geez that sounded pretentious.....I hope you get what I am saying. :o

Dee

battybattybats
10-04-2007, 09:37 PM
It's those different personal experiences you mention that make our paths different. Our paths may run parallel to each other, but they are ultimately different. And I happen to think this is a good thing. It's our different personal experiences that shape what we bring to the discussion. We can agree 100% on everything but still be looking at it through different eyes. And it's by sharing these personal experiences that we can affect compassion and understanding for each other. Geez that sounded pretentious.....I hope you get what I am saying. :o

Dee

I get you and concur entirely.
It's the value that comes from diversity. :)
:hugs:


And it's by sharing these personal experiences that we can affect compassion and understanding for each other.

That's not pretentious. That is quite wise.
Thankyou.

Satrana
10-05-2007, 07:01 AM
But....and this is for the sake of discussion only....Does acceptance mean participation?.......
(again...just a discussion point..don't attack me please :heehee:)



Hi Dee

You know what I found interesting with your exchange with Batty was not that the two of you are in complete agreement but why you thought you might not be in agreement and so your need for these qualifications I quoted above.

You see everything you said makes perfect sense and I very much doubt if any of the thousands of CD members here would have the slightest problem with any of your comments. So I am interested in finding out why you must have thought otherwise. What were the building blocks that lead you to this conclusion?

Let me de-construct this for a moment.

All CDs go into the closet because they know their thoughts are taboo and socially unacceptable and if revealed would make them social outcasts. So all CDs expect that other people (including their SOs) when presented with crossdressing would:-

not accept feminine men and consider them perverted
not want to have a CD as a husband or friend
not want to be seen in public with a CD
not want to ever participate in CD events
not want to engage in sex with a CD
and so on.....

So if CDs expectations of other people is total rejection then CDs are actually very surprised and over the moon to find any level of acceptance whatsoever. Now given this, your apparent nervousness about discussing acceptance and participation would inflame CDs does not make sense to me considering CDs don't expect either.

So this is my take. CDs do wish for, pray for and fantasize that their SOs would be accepting and would want to participate. Naturally CDs will ask this from their SOs and keep all their fingers crossed that the answer is yes. Could it be that SOs are misinterpreting a request as a demand? Do SOs really think that CDs expect this of them rather than just CDs hoping for it? If so then this is a major source of miscommunication and an avoidable source of friction in relationships.

Does this make any sense?

Dee Talbot
10-05-2007, 11:43 AM
Hi Dee

You know what I found interesting with your exchange with Batty was not that the two of you are in complete agreement but why you thought you might not be in agreement and so your need for these qualifications I quoted above.

You see everything you said makes perfect sense and I very much doubt if any of the thousands of CD members here would have the slightest problem with any of your comments. So I am interested in finding out why you must have thought otherwise. What were the building blocks that lead you to this conclusion?

Let me de-construct this for a moment.

All CDs go into the closet because they know their thoughts are taboo and socially unacceptable and if revealed would make them social outcasts. So all CDs expect that other people (including their SOs) when presented with crossdressing would:-

not accept feminine men and consider them perverted
not want to have a CD as a husband or friend
not want to be seen in public with a CD
not want to ever participate in CD events
not want to engage in sex with a CD
and so on.....

So if CDs expectations of other people is total rejection then CDs are actually very surprised and over the moon to find any level of acceptance whatsoever. Now given this, your apparent nervousness about discussing acceptance and participation would inflame CDs does not make sense to me considering CDs don't expect either.

So this is my take. CDs do wish for, pray for and fantasize that their SOs would be accepting and would want to participate. Naturally CDs will ask this from their SOs and keep all their fingers crossed that the answer is yes. Could it be that SOs are misinterpreting a request as a demand? Do SOs really think that CDs expect this of them rather than just CDs hoping for it? If so then this is a major source of miscommunication and an avoidable source of friction in relationships.

Does this make any sense? This all makes perfect sense to me. The single reason that I qualified my comments with the disclaimer is that sometimes, people tend to let emotion override logic in discussions like this. I say people in the generic....not directed and anyone in particular here on the forum. There have been instances in the past where I thought my tone and intent were fairly clear. However, either due to misunderstanding, miscommunication, or just plain old "didn't read the whole post and jumped to unreasonable conclusions" my intent has been misconstrued. I wanted to be able to continue this discussion without fear that someone was going to make inaccurate assumptions about what I meant, and then turn this into an attack-fest. (edited to add...I wasn't worried about Batty attacking either..just CMA!!)

As to the question of what SO's see as CD expectations regarding acceptance, it's unfortunate that at times....we really just don't seem to see eye to eye on this issue. I think it boils down to the old Venus vs Mars issues. Men and women just communicate differently. My case with Barb is an example of that. Me saying, "gee, I don't know if I can be into this. I don't know how I am going to feel. Let me get a chance to adjust. I won't stand in your way", was my way of letting her know that I accept her. I love her. Give me a chance to catch up to where you are and learn. I thought I was offering total acceptance, and asking for acceptance of my need for time in return. Barb (I asked her just now so that this would be her correct feelings), in turn heard me saying, "I won't stand in your way, but I don't want anything to do with your dressing". I find it amazing that two people who have been married for 15 years, sometimes still can't communicate. Don't you?

But, that's it in a nutshell. At times, there are posts here on the forum regarding GG's level of acceptance. Sometimes, we GG's, read that CD's are NOT happy with our level of acceptance, and we get upset. Sometimes, those posts can feel downright insulting. We don't feel (and I am taking the liberty of answering for GG's here...sorry) that anyone has the right to demand more acceptance than we may be willing or capable of giving . There are intensely personal reasons behind our levels of acceptance that anyone outside the relationship can't know. And truthfully, is no one elses business. It's hurtful to us sometimes to feel that what we have given, may not be enough for the CD. We may feel that any acceptance we give is underappreciated.

From the CD perspective (and I have discussed my words here with Barb for accuracy..however...still just my surmising), perhaps, CD's aren't really accusing and demanding so much as venting and emoting. A simple, "Why is my SO being so difficult about allowing me to dress in public?" may just be a cry from the heart. A reaching out to other CDs who are in a similar situation. Maybe, the poster sincerely wants to understand the why's. Perhaps the CD is intensely grateful to their own SO for the love and understanding that has been given, but in a moment of anger or weakness, they type something that boils our blood. The need and desire to vent is understandable. It may have nothing to do with your reality. It may just be a release of the understandable stresses CD's are under.

It's like this. Years ago, I read in a parenting book to REALLY LISTEN to what the child means, and that the words don't necessarily fit the meaning. If a child is being told to go to their room, they may say, "WHY!!!???? I don't WANT to". If that child is saying these words, and simultaneously moving toward their room, they ARE NOT being insolent. They are asking WHY!!! But, sometimes, in our emotional state: anger, frustration, hurt, etc. All we hear is the insolence. We increase the punishment, when it wasn't really necessary.

I think that we just aren't communicating well on this board. And this is not surprising. In the cyber world, we can't see facial expression. We can't hear inflection. We can't see the child, moving toward the bedroom.....we only hear the insolence.

A little acceptance, not of crossdressing, but of each other and our differences will go a long way toward constructive progress.

Dee

Kris
10-05-2007, 01:28 PM
I'm reminded of both my father and also my best friend. Both are generally good people. Both are quite open-minded, accepting and decent. Both are in favour of equal rights for everyone, including gays. Yet both can't handle seeing open acts of homosexual romance. The holding hands or kissing that anyone else can do in public freaks them out, they don't appose it but they can't bear to see it. I understand it is hard for them but that isn't any reason for restricting gays from holding hands or kissing in public like straight people can is it? Instead they have to acclimatise themselves to the experience.. slowly but surely, if they can.


And this makes me CRAZY!! Women get to walk around pregnant...... and that is advertisement of what they have been doing...... and I hear people all the time, especially men say it's okay for women to kiss each other but men........... no freaking way.. Why? It is no different.
I too am not saying they are bad people, but I do not agree with them. I will also fight for the rights of each gay person that I know each time I am faced with this problem. It infuriates me.

JMHO.. I could be wrong,

Kris

Marlena-4now
10-05-2007, 04:19 PM
I do recognise that this is hard.
Just as I also recognise that it is hard for a homophobic person to discover their child is gay. Just like it is hard for a racist who has grown up in a racist family and a racist society to then accept their sister marrying an aboriginal man. I knew one racist who became suicidal when he discovered he had a jewish ancestor. These things were all hard. It was also hard for a fundamentalist christian I went to school with when they started teaching evolution in class. He was so distraught when he found out about the development of different strains of disease and vaccination and how that conflicted with what he had grown up believing. I found him crying in a dark corner of the library where I usually went to get some peace and consoled him as best I could, telling him he needn't give up his religion (or keep it if that was his choice) just because part of what he'd 'known' all his life didn't match the evidence of the real world.

Yes it is hard. It is hard but it is right. Shedding yourself of racism sexism and homophobia is right. Accepting gay family members is right. Accepting people of different race into your family is right and accepting crossdressing is right. Not easy. Definately not easy. Sure not everyone can do it. I met plenty of elderly folk who could never accept that other races were equal, that men and women were equal, that homosexuality isn't a physical disease or mental illness. Several of them have gone to the grave distraught with the directions society has taken and unable to reconsile themselves to it.

I'm not putting unaccepting GGs down by mentioning these other things that the majority of society has managed to handle.. I am calling for greater compassion for everyone. Who has not believed something that was wrong? Who has not held at least one bigoted opinion over their life?

Do CDs deserve acceptance? Unequivocally yes. Yes they do. Just as women in the workforce or the universities did. Just as black people in the same school as white people do. Gays do, Jews do, Gypsies do (and not many get it still!), Muslims do, Christians do, Atheists do, Nerds do.. everyone whose actions and nature are ethical deserves acceptance and respect. The more marginalised, the more oppressed they are the more they will crave it and the less they will get it.

To put the shoe on the other foot for CDs just search for a persons past bigotry.. we all have at least a bit somewhere, we pick it up unconciously. Some have fought it and won, some fought it and lost, some never fought it at all and harbour it still. For almost everyone it is a hard fought battle as the concious mind has to constantly overide the unconcious reflex until the unconcious learns the new reflex.

I'm reminded of both my father and also my best friend. Both are generally good people. Both are quite open-minded, accepting and decent. Both are in favour of equal rights for everyone, including gays. Yet both can't handle seeing open acts of homosexual romance. The holding hands or kissing that anyone else can do in public freaks them out, they don't appose it but they can't bear to see it. I understand it is hard for them but that isn't any reason for restricting gays from holding hands or kissing in public like straight people can is it? Instead they have to acclimatise themselves to the experience.. slowly but surely, if they can.

WOW !! Surely one of the most eloquent and powerful posts I have ever read ! Bravo Batty !!! - Yes, It may be hard, but no matter how hard, acceptance is right. BOTH acceptance of a persons need to express themselves in the manner they choose AND acceptance of a persons right to not participate in activities which are a detriment to their personal peace and happiness - in essence - Live and let live !

Lisa Golightly
10-05-2007, 05:05 PM
I think every woman has a right to be with a man... That's why I gave up on them.

Kris
10-05-2007, 07:07 PM
I think every woman has a right to be with a man... That's why I gave up on them.

Lisa,

What if the woman doesn't want a man, or wants a feminine one? By giving up on them, aren't you leaving yourself left out of happiness in your life?

This just sounds so sad. I had issues when I left my ex and had to spend time getting to know who I was before I attempted to get involved with anyone new..so I took 5 years. I got a lot of flack for doing it.. but I didn't give up - just took a break. There are good men out there, and there are good women.. maybe we just can't see them now?

:hugs: Kris

battybattybats
10-06-2007, 09:59 PM
And this makes me CRAZY!! Women get to walk around pregnant...... and that is advertisement of what they have been doing...... and I hear people all the time, especially men say it's okay for women to kiss each other but men........... no freaking way.. Why? It is no different.
I too am not saying they are bad people, but I do not agree with them. I will also fight for the rights of each gay person that I know each time I am faced with this problem. It infuriates me.

JMHO.. I could be wrong,

Kris

I can explain some of the double standard between the common mens attituides towards lesbians and gays.

Men don't like seeing men romantically involved with other men because they have grown up with it being referred to as the worst possible thing, absolutely unacceptable and repulsive and so they have internalised the general atmosphere of homophobia to the point that they have an unconcious physical reaction even when their concious mind is fine with gay people, can talk to and be friends with gay people it is witnessing the acts that revolt them.

Men like seeing very feminine lesbians. This comes from the same homophobic source. In porn they often have to "look round a guy to see" the things they want to see (quoted from a friend of mine). Seeing the same images of women without the men removes the confronting element. There is also a fantasy element (not actually believed by any guys I know but still a strong fantasy) that the women are lonely, giving each other pleasure for lack of a guy who can fulfil them and so the man can easilly fantasise about being that individual. Another strong turn-on for many men are women who are forward and open minded when it comes to sex and so lesbian acts are seen as a strong display of this from strong and powerful rather than dominant or submissive women.

Also men are taught to adore women and disrespect males, both other males and themselves. This makes it easy for a man to imagine that women would find other women attractive but harder for them to understand that anyone could find men attractive (it doesn't help that I have heard many women say that sort of thing either) and also why men find feminine lesbians acceptable but masculine ones very threatening.

I have seen some erosion of this phenomenon though as gay and bi men, effeminate men and strong masculine women are seen more in popular media more people become more acustomed to it and get over their hang-ups.. except for the more homophobic folk. I myself was a bit squemish about such things but, upon recognising my own hypocrasy was able to undo it pretty easilly.

Just look at other social double-standards.. men who sleep around are often lionised by their mates while many men and even more women rank the same behaviour amongst women as the lowest of the low.