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katrinafltg
03-30-2005, 01:18 AM
From a webpage

"The theory seems to hold that there is an entire class of transsexuals who are in love with the woman they fantasize themselves to be. They are in love with the woman they belive is inside them, or the woman they would be were they women. So, in a sense, we are talking more about a sort of strange narcissism than about a gender dysphoria. And there is no reason why the theory does not apply to cross dressers as well. The difference wold be the degree of infatuation, and the extent to which one was willing to go to bring the love affair to fruition. Autogynephelia is a neat and handy explanation for such phenomena as cross dressers increasing their activity the more frequently they dress, and the sudden switch to transsexualism at a later age. The more one cross dresses the "closer" one becomes to the love object until consummation becomes a necessity. Since the love object canonly be obtained by externalizing it, the person must become the love object. Or something like that."

Another theory postulated by academics to assign a more sinister meaning to tg existence. While I believe the autogynephiliac theory may have some valid insights I do not believe it necessarily indicates a disorder.

Society, of course, tells us that we what is healthy and proper is the heterosexual union. If all hetero unions were the model of balance, health and actualization I would say "you got me." Now, I am not a hetero-basher by any mean but heterosexuality does not imply health. Domestic violence, adultery, date rape, prostitution, all of these plainly indicate that being hetero does not mean one is "healthy."

Homosexuality shares some of those problems and has some that are unique to it. Crossdressing is a form of sexuality and as such I do not believe that it is innately pathological simply because it is not in line with mainstream notions of what "normal" or "healthy" implies.

Indeed the isolation and shame that tg's endure is not a product of their own making but the result of society's prejudice and intolerance. Tg's don't want to stay in their homes or hotel rooms. We don't want to be confined only to tg clubs or tg events like southern comfort. For the most part we just want to live life normally as our chosen gender.

I believe there is a reason why tg's exist. Tg's tend to be fun, life embracing people with good hearts. And if we are narcissistic and self obsessed then so what? That's not going to kill anyone. But really in my experience tg's have been very supportive and generous.

The truth is that love is rare. I see very little of it in real life. Its a cold world out there. There is so much deception, manipulation, superficiality and indifference. So much unhappiness.

I believe there is always an element of jealousy from mainstream society when it comes to those who are gay or transgender or whatnot. It's like they're pissed off because we have an "option" they don't. I'm not antifamily but let's face it; families can be very oppressive. I remember recently reading about a virulently antihomosexual preacher. One of his criticisms was that they had too much income because they didn't have children.

I can appreciate the beauty of children and parenting but we are not simply cattle made for breeding. We can find meaning outside of reproduction. And this is not pathological. Especially when you consider all the people out there who reproduce and then abuse the living hell out of their kids.

In the end my only real point is that "clinicians" are just that; clinical and cold. they don't see the romance or the mystery. The meaning of life goes beyond the artificial notions of "normality" and "health" that are foisted upon us by the media and other institutions. What we are fed as "normal" comes many times from people who are willing to damage our psyches and bodies in any way possible if it will make them money.

Just sharing some thoughts

Love
Katrina

crispy
03-30-2005, 04:03 AM
Actually I can identify with much of the description of autogynephilia.

......... should I change my profile to Autogyne-CrispyPhyllis ? or even Autogynetic-Crisphylis :rolleyes:

RobynP
03-30-2005, 05:16 PM
Another theory postulated by academics to assign a more sinister meaning to tg existence. While I believe the autogynephiliac theory may have some valid insights I do not believe it necessarily indicates a disorder.

This is the first time I have ever heard of a "sinister meaning" to tg existence. I'd be interested in finding out who these academics are...



Society, of course, tells us that we what is healthy and proper is the heterosexual union.

Actually, nature tells us that a heterosexual union is healthy, proper, and NECESSARY for mankind to survive. Without heterosexual unions, mankind would disappear.



Indeed the isolation and shame that tg's endure is not a product of their own making but the result of society's prejudice and intolerance. Tg's don't want to stay in their homes or hotel rooms. We don't want to be confined only to tg clubs or tg events like southern comfort. For the most part we just want to live life normally as our chosen gender.

Actually, there are very few, if any, barriers to t-people in our society. There are many transgendered people who go anywhere, anytime, living normally as their chosen gender presentation. Many t-people go to tg clubs or tg events because they like to associate with people who are like them and share the same interests. I know I do... Why would one go somewhere where there are people they dislike or don't share the same common interests? I think that we blow way out of proportion society's predjudice and intolerance. Have you ever gone anywhere and seen a sign that says "No T-people Allowed"? Or a sign that says "Trans people must use their own drinking fountain."? Sure, there are people who don't LIKE us and don't want to associate with us because of our presentation, but they may not like us because of our bad breath, lack of deoderant, our height, our weight, and so on. But that is not predjudice or intolerance.



I can appreciate the beauty of children and parenting but we are not simply cattle made for breeding. We can find meaning outside of reproduction. And this is not pathological.

Actually, we are built physically and chemically to reproduce (i.e. "breeding").



Especially when you consider all the people out there who reproduce and then abuse the living hell out of their kids.

Those people "out there" should be arrested and punished appropriately. There are laws against this.

-----

So are you saying that the explanation of autogynephilia labels transgendered people as not healthy or normal? I think that if you research this carefully, it is an attempt at explaining one possible reason (not the only possible reason) for transexualism and crossdressing. There hasn't been a lot of reasearch yet on whether or not these ideas are viable. From my own experience, I think that autogynephilia has potential as a possible reason for what we do. Most crossdressers are extremely focused on what they are wearing and how they look not only just with clothes but with wigs, makeup, padding, etc. And many transexuals are extremely focused in how their body looks. Read some of the on-line journels of various t-people. A ts usually describes in detail their body changes when starting and using hormones, their rlt, and their operations. A crossdresser will describe in detail the clothes they are wearing or buying. Just look at many of the discussions here...

Robyn P.

robin/rjs
03-31-2005, 10:07 PM
Great Points Kat. I think you hit it on the head ? are you a phyc. Doc or studying to be ? just sounds that way. :)

Davena
04-20-2005, 03:46 PM
From a webpage

"The theory seems to hold that there is an entire class of transsexuals who are in love with the woman they fantasize themselves to be. They are in love with the woman they belive is inside them, or the woman they would be were they women. So, in a sense, we are talking more about a sort of strange narcissism than about a gender dysphoria. And there is no reason why the theory does not apply to cross dressers as well.

Good GOD!!! Don't fall for that load of crap theory by Ray Blanchards.

Here is a website that gives a counterview point about the subject - http://tsroadmap.com/info/autogynephilia.html

Brandy_Marie
04-20-2005, 05:27 PM
I love that there are so many stimulating topics on this forum.


Autogynephelia is a neat and handy explanation for such phenomena as cross dressers increasing their activity the more frequently they dress, and the sudden switch to transsexualism at a later age.I always worry about any explanation described as "neaty and handy". I used to focus a lot of energy on discovering the "hard and fast" rules in life that would help me succeed. I've discovered that no matter how badly we want life to be easy to figure out, to be black and white, it isn't. That's what makes it so interesting. There are as many different motivations for TG/TS/CDs as there are people who fit in that category.


Actually, there are very few, if any, barriers to t-people in our society. There are many transgendered people who go anywhere, anytime, living normally as their chosen gender presentation. Many t-people go to tg clubs or tg events because they like to associate with people who are like them and share the same interests. I know I do... Why would one go somewhere where there are people they dislike or don't share the same common interests? I think that we blow way out of proportion society's predjudice and intolerance. Have you ever gone anywhere and seen a sign that says "No T-people Allowed"? Or a sign that says "Trans people must use their own drinking fountain."? Sure, there are people who don't LIKE us and don't want to associate with us because of our presentation, but they may not like us because of our bad breath, lack of deoderant, our height, our weight, and so on. But that is not predjudice or intolerance.Robyn, do you know a secret that I don't know? The most conservative estimate I've heard of the murder rate for transgendered people is 1 per month in the US and 2 per month outside of the US. Based on the overly-conservative estimates of the actual TG populations, the US murder rate is 16x the national average. The 2nd highest murder rate in the US by population is among African-American males at 3x the national average. The most extreme estimate I've heard is that TGs have a 1 in 12 chance of being murdered, compared to the 1 in 100,000 chance for Americans in general. That alone is enough to at least make me cautious about going out in public.

Hugs,

Brandy Marie Devereaux

Jan W
05-02-2005, 04:01 PM
Katrina,

I suspect that you, like me, have read very extensively the discussions re autogynephilia. In fact I have actively sought out any and all information regarding our particular orientation ever since I was in primary school. If a magazine had Jan Morris on the cover I would move heaven and earth to access it. I found April Ashley's biography in a secondhand bookstore, Jan Morris's Conundrum in the school library and was always on the lookout for more. How does a young boy interpret this info all about seeming ordinary people some married with children becoming women and relate it to himself?

Then came the internet! Thank god. The day I first read of autogynyphilia is forever with me. An answer of soughts. I read and read and for some reason felt a lot better about the whole deal.

When I discovered violent opposition to the theory I was gobsmacked. Why are the people who do not come under the notion of autogynephilia so dead set against those of us who do? Why can't they believe that we are all different and that some of us do relate to the theory? I believe in live and let live and respect their right to explain that it does not apply to them but have a lot of trouble with the fact that they will not accept that it most definitely does apply to me.

I am quite comfortable with my orientation and my dressing so have not sought the services of a professional but would have no trouble doing so. I love the subject and am truly facinated by all it's aspects.

Thanks Katrina for raising the issue.

Love,

Jan

RobynP
05-03-2005, 01:11 PM
I love that there are so many stimulating topics on this forum.

I always worry about any explanation described as "neaty and handy". I used to focus a lot of energy on discovering the "hard and fast" rules in life that would help me succeed. I've discovered that no matter how badly we want life to be easy to figure out, to be black and white, it isn't. That's what makes it so interesting. There are as many different motivations for TG/TS/CDs as there are people who fit in that category.

Robyn, do you know a secret that I don't know? The most conservative estimate I've heard of the murder rate for transgendered people is 1 per month in the US and 2 per month outside of the US. Based on the overly-conservative estimates of the actual TG populations, the US murder rate is 16x the national average. The 2nd highest murder rate in the US by population is among African-American males at 3x the national average. The most extreme estimate I've heard is that TGs have a 1 in 12 chance of being murdered, compared to the 1 in 100,000 chance for Americans in general. That alone is enough to at least make me cautious about going out in public.

Hugs,

Brandy Marie Devereaux

Brandy,

The statistics you describe are over six years old and, if you took a look at the supporting data, are highly inaccurate. In order to determine the murder rate for the TG population, someone has to know how many people are in the TG community. Nobody knows that number. There are wild guesses and hasty estimates which make any statements derived from that information wild guesses and hasty estimates as well.

The statistics also do not clearly identify why the murders took place except for the fact the victim is TG.

That said, the murder of any TG is horrible and tragic. The killing of ANYONE is horrible and tragic no matter what the circumstances.

People will not hate TGs more or less because of Autogynephilla or any other possible explanations. It MAY help people who are suffering to come to better terms with themselves and others.

Do not let the statistics make you afraid. If you honestly fear being attacked, take self-defense courses. Get a permit and pack a weapon. But do not be afraid. Fear is the worst hate crime of all.

RobynP

Like2BAspen
05-03-2005, 06:16 PM
Aspen just wants to have fun let the screwballs figure that out. Are we going to let guys like FRASIER OR NILES CRANE JUDGE US. Those psychologists are the biggest screwballs. The only people that are worse are lawyers. They both make good livings off of peoples misfortune and lack of confidence. We are what we are because it makes us feel good don't worryabout it, :cool: be happy.