Is crossdressing transexual purgatory?

[kittypw GG]

I do not mean to offend anyone but after watching the Opra show on Friday I have been doing some serious thinking. (dangerous I know :heehee:)

Both families featured discussed their journey to living full time female. Both considered themselves crossdressers. Both wive's accepted this and even stayed when they transitioned. Both mtf's stated that the urge to crossdress became stronger and stronger progressing to more frequent and more feminine. One claimed he could have been discribed as an efeminate male (his wife said not, she had no idea). One described the feeling as a rage burning within him. A feeling that he would explode if he did not make the transition.
All the while the wive's were thinking this was a phase or something. Obviously these feelings were not expressed to the spouse.

My question is, then what is the motivation to participate if participation will lead to more frequency and fine tunning , if you will. I think most gg's are willing participants to a point but it is not our thing. We go along because it means something to our spouse, so naturally, most would prefere the frequency to diminish not accelerate.

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty

[Rachelhouston]

I can only speak for myself, but I have zero interest in becoming a woman full-time. As much as I love wearing dresses, heels and hose, I know for a fact that the thrill wouldn't be there if I had to dress that way for work every day...forever.

It isn't all sexual fetish for me either. I started off in miniskirts and platform heels, but I've gotten to where I like to dress more conservatively. About once a week, I'll get dolled up and putter around the house doing the things I would normally do. Maybe someday I'll work up the courage to go outside.

My wife is outstandingly wonderful and supportive, but she fell in love with me as a man and is attracted to me as a man. I try to see things from her point of view and I spend a lot of time making sure that I don't cross boundaries. For instance: I'd kind of like to shave my legs, but my wife likes the soft fine hair on my legs. If I shave, the hair grows back in coarse and it take a long time for it to get soft again. So I don't shave.

Ultimately, a relationship is a two way street. If it is all take and no give, I don't think you have a very good one.

Rachel

[Marla S]

Thanks Kitty, another thought provoking thread.



Both families featured discussed their journey to living full time female. Both considered themselves crossdressers. Both wive's accepted this and even stayed when they transitioned. Both mtf's stated that the urge to crossdress became stronger and stronger progressing to more frequent and more feminine. One claimed he could have been discribed as an efeminate male (his wife said not, she had no idea). One described the feeling as a rage burning within him. A feeling that he would explode if he did not make the transition.
All the while the wive's were thinking this was a phase or something. Obviously these feelings were not expressed to the spouse.
Thinking it is a phase is an understandable means of self-protection, but it is a misconception that inevitable will lead to conflicts and frustration for both; this can ruin a relationship. It would be the best for both not to see it as a phase. If it turns out to be a phase nevertheless, nothing is lost.


My question is, then what is the motivation to participate if participation will lead to more frequency and fine tunning , if you will. I think most gg's are willing participants to a point but it is not our thing. We go along because it means something to our spouse, so naturally, most would prefere the frequency to diminish not accelerate.
Another misconception. Of course there is the wish that it will diminish, but hoping and waiting for it will again lead to frustration for both. This way of thinking even has the potential to induce further progression. For a CD there is (almost) no way back, but if this is what is latently hoped for or demanded, the only other way for the CD to "escape" is progression. Progression to underline that there is an integral part of the personality that won't diminish and shouldn't be denied.

Participating is understood by the CD as a sign for acceptance. That could be the motivation: Acceptance, respect for the partner.
"but it is not our thing". Yes, completely understandable and nothing wrong with it, but unless it doesn't become "your thing" or the SO at least is able to find a neutral attitude, again conflicts and frustration.


Is crossdressing transexual purgatory?
Most of the time,No

Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so?
Often, NO. But because people (CD, SO, society) obviously don't get gray shades, it is enforced to think so.
(I often think it would be more easy, more plausible, more "real" if I only would be TS or a full fem CD. But I am neither, giving me hard time at times, and makes it hard to explain it to others:
If you don't want to be a woman, why you do it at all, where's the fun in it ? It's probably fetishism then or you are a gay in denial.:straightface:Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! !!!:wall:)

Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?
I would think so, but the way it is expressed is corrupted by a lot of constraints, fears, and fantasies, some of which are mentioned above.

[Kate Simmons]

Everyone is different in what it means to them Kitty. An expression for sure. Harmless? It depends on how much you allow it to run your life. From what I've seen with TS people it may be just a stage of adapting to and/or getting used to wearing the clothing of the gender you actually feel you are. I don't think there is that much of a "rush" in this case, it's more of identifying with your real self. I do have friends who had to transition because they knew everything was just wrong and in a few extreme cases, the only other alternative was not wanting to live at all and there was really no other choice. Of course, most of these folks fulfill all of the requirements prior to transition and there is no question that they need to do it.

As far as crossdressers, most of it in the beginning is innoculous enough, i.e. wearing panties or bras even though it may come off as somewhat "bizarre" or eccentric behavior where the SO is concerned. This does tend to escalate however and the beaming eye reaction of a CD reflects this in a "give 'em an inch and they take a mile" scenerio. In a lot of cases, this greatly puts off the SO and they wonder just how far this thing is going to go, where it leaves them, etc. Believe me, I know.

This is when communication of intentions is essential and where partners have to seriously act like adults and this is where I failed in my personal case. Determining the intentions is the key and only openness and honesty will accomplish this. Anything less leads to mistrust, doubt and anxiety for both partners. Relationships are based on trust, respect and teamwork. Anything (not just CDing) that threatens that will eventually be detrimental to the relationship. Communication, trust and sharing is the only way. I know that now.:straightface:

[Katrina]

I think for some of us, it is purgatory. For others, they just need to express a feminine side or like the fashion. I bet if you asked 1000 CDers what they thought, you'd get 1000 different answers.

[Alex R]

.......

My question is.....crossdressing transsexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty

Good question Kitty and the answer, I fell, is that it really depends.

I've realised fairly late in life that my infrequent dabbling with crossdressing was not some form of mild fetish or whatever and was the manifestation of something much stronger and deep rooted. The more I dress the more desire to experience something more than just dressing. What that is at this stage I don't know, and it is something I'm struggling with at the moment.

So yes, considering my own feelings and reading the commentaries of many others who have parallel experiences I suggest that many crossdressers realise that they be more than just CD.

However, in saying that, there are many active crossdressers, much more active than I, who would never feel the need to start on any form of transition or even contemplate any form of body change. This has to be equally recognised.

So the answer to a very good question, Kitty, is that it really depends.

[morgan51]

I found that as long as I denied the urge to dress I was very frustrated and hard to live with. since allowing my fem. side some outlet I am calm and happy I fully intend to nurture this side of myself so I can be a better husband for my wife and a better human. I didn't ask to be made this way It just is. I have had to learn to accept it and deal with it because it won't go away not by wishing it would or stuffing it in the "closet" .I have found a very supportive wife who talks with me daily about this and thru communication have strengthened our relationship She insists we talk every day I am loving this new way of living because of her and with her. she has had a hard time comming to grips with the idea and continues to have some fear.All I can do is reassure her I Love her. Morgan:wave:

[Eugenie]

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?
Kitty
I think that it is all of the above but to different individuals. For some it is indeed a profound feeling of being "born in the wrong body", for these persons, indeed the X-dressing part can be but a purgatory.

For other it remains a simple pleasure of wearing women clothes.

I seems though, that for many of us there is an evolution towards spending more and more time "en femme" and behaving in a way that we think is feminine. That last part can be quite a bit made of stereotyping a rather old feminine role model...

I can understand that a wife find this evolution of her husband difficult to live with. And that is the case most of the times. Some rare wives however have made the choice of the "person" they lived with so many years, even when that person has changed a lot physically.

Note that this shouldn't be taken as a reproach to the wives who can't accept that transition. As said above I understand very well the frustration that you (as a general "you") may feel. My wife is in that situation...

The conclusion is that there is a wide diversity among X-dressers motivations and a similar diversity in the attitudes and feelings of their wives (S/O).
:hugs:
Eugenie

[Raychel]

I think for some of us, it is purgatory. For others, they just need to express a feminine side or like the fashion. I bet if you asked 1000 CDers what they thought, you'd get 1000 different answers.

I think that Katrina said it best here. Although I would bet that for the most part crossdressers are comfortable with who they are. Sure there are some that would love to transition and go the whole route. But in my opinion, and it is only my opinion, I would guess that would not be the majority.

Myself, I am happy with who I am. Sure I would like more time to dress, But I am happy being a guy that like to play dressup sometimes. That is as far as I ever plan on going.
:2c:

[melissacd]

I feel that the denial that I am a cross dresser was the purgatory. During that period for me it was a living hell on earth. Now that I have accepted that part of me there is a greater peace within myself.

All cross dressers, like all people, are different. How they express their cross dressing and where their cross dressing takes them in their lives is different. I have no idea where mine is taking me now, however, I do know that the denial and then the acceptance have cost me a great deal in many ways.

I feel that I am finally leaving purgatory and moving on to become a much happier human who is just trying to be who they should have been all along, not male, not female, just me. Once we recognize who we are and start living accordingly then we become happier more balanced human beings. Once we become happier more balanced human beings the rest will take care of itself.

[Lilith Moon]

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so?

Hiya Kitty, thanks for raising this issue.

As you will see from this thread, there is no single answer to your question. Some do, some don't. We are all different. I would just like to add that a crossdresser may not know herself where things are leading to. There isn't necessarily a secret agenda of denial, or pretense, that it is "just dressing up" while transexual needs are actively concealed from SOs. The need to transition may emerge and be as much a surprise to the crossdresser as it is to her SO.

Just my :2c:

[janet1234]

just like getting dressed up, I don't feel any urges to become a total woman.

[livy_m_b]

It really goes both ways, but one is more common than the other. That is, some start out thinking they are ts-inclined and end up realizing they are just cders; others start out thinking they are cders and end up realizing they are ts-inclined. But, most people who start out thinking they are cders end up thinking they are cders and most who start out thinking they are ts-inclined end up thinking the same.

I can understand why ggs who are okay with cding would not be ok with ts, and I suppose there may be a few for whom the opposite is true, that they prefer the transwoman.

Regarding self-perception, I've learned about myself and from watching others that cd/ts are not to be _completely_ relied on about their own feelings and tendencies. I attribute that to two things - social pressures make us want to be more "acceptable" socially - for some of us that means being a cder, for others it means being a "woman" not a cder; also, it's a voyage of self discovery - we don't know what is going to happen two steps down the path until we take the next step.

Overall, most gg's who are supportive of cding can expect that is where it will end up; but for some few it will go farther without necessarily that being the desired outcome for either partner when it starts. GGs should know that too.

[Tip or Ozma]

. . . Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinely express?

Kitty

Kitty,

I think this is likely the case (I know it is for me) and if the fear factor expressed by some SOs here was replaced by a sharing factor (genuine and authentic communication), both partners could possibly enjoy the experience and enhance their relationship. This also goes for letting your partner express her masculine side.

I find that my crossdressing practices are self-limiting by the reality of my physical being, my desire to be a true companion to my partner and an awareness of the impact of my behavior on others. I have also been dressing up as a Civil War soldier and a citizen of the 1860s. My wife dresses as a nineteenth-century woman. However, we still are part of the present (using all the inventions and conveniences in our daily life). My wife and I have developed and created a flexible bubble around our "time-traveling" experiences just as we have developed the same envelope around my wanting to wear or assume a more feminine role at time for pleasure and peace of mind. For us the crossdressing bubble is almost entirely private (we do shop in public and I underdress with her awareness of that.

Tip

[Sally24]

My question is, then what is the motivation to participate if participation will lead to more frequency and fine tunning.
You participate because you love your SO and this is a part of them. If they are really transexual instead of cd then I think eventually that will come out, with or without support. If your spouce was transexual, would you really like to "force" them ,directly or indirectly, to remain where they are not happy? I don't think so. I am honest with my wife that there are some urges for something more than CDing. But I am also honest to myself that transitioning would probably not be an improvement for me. There are trade offs in both cases and each person has to balance all the possible pros and cons before taking non-reversable actions.

[Taffy]

One distinction, at least for me, is that the desire to be feminine, with all of the fabulous clothes, is completely different from a desire to be female. I have no interest in being female, but love the clothes. I loooove females, to be around them and dress like them, but I don't want to be one...

[docrobbysherry]

Taffy said it all for me. "Exiting fetishist" is me. I think!
RS

One distinction, at least for me, is that the desire to be feminine, with all of the fabulous clothes, is completely different from a desire to be female. I have no interest in being female, but love the clothes. I loooove females, to be around them and dress like them, but I don't want to be one...

[Tvanessa]

I have considered transitioning in the past and came to the realization that even though I did want to I did not need to. I value my family and friends who love me just the way I am (they do not know I cd) and that means more to me than transitioning. I am very satisfied with my choice.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kittygg

you are wonderful and i always enjoy your posts...i'm gonna go with the thousand answers response...

HOWEVER..thats probably true of everything..

specifically i buy into the concept that 100% straight or 100% gay is not reality and we all experience a scale of sexuality and its probably true of our gender issues... so one plausible explanation is that fetishy crossdressing and trannssexualism are really very different but very few of us are 100% on either side of that scale...just a thought.

the other major major factor is how you look.....on the inside our feelings are more similar...but tell that to a 6' 300 lbs ham fisted guy who wants to feel like a woman!!! its not fair, but its the reality of it..so ithink how good you are at pulling off being accepted in your role can have some impact on how you think of yourself..

that would certainly explain why there are so many different answers

its interesting how vehement some of us are when answering this question (and the gay question too!)....

great posts!!

[Ðarissa]

As much as I like dressing up and whatnot, I certainly don't mind being a guy and doing guy stuffs including dressing like one, or at least 80% like one because I'm always in lingerie. I know for certain I won't be heading down the road to transexual purgatory as I can't imagine going for the full meal deal. I like the way I am right now, being a dude and dressing up like a girl. It's a turn on, it's fun and relaxing as well. No need to go any further except to buy and try new items of clothing....

That being said, I figure if we do get multiple lives, I want to come back as a girl for the next 10 to compensate for this one. ;) Otherwise I may get a little ticked at whatever deity is involved or whatever crappy biological chromosome switch that messed up. :p :heehee:

If I'm going anywhere, it's crazy. ;)

[jaina]

I do not mean to offend anyone but after watching the Opra show on Friday I have been doing some serious thinking. (dangerous I know :heehee:)

Both families featured discussed their journey to living full time female. Both considered themselves crossdressers. Both wive's accepted this and even stayed when they transitioned. Both mtf's stated that the urge to crossdress became stronger and stronger progressing to more frequent and more feminine. One claimed he could have been discribed as an efeminate male (his wife said not, she had no idea). One described the feeling as a rage burning within him. A feeling that he would explode if he did not make the transition.
All the while the wive's were thinking this was a phase or something. Obviously these feelings were not expressed to the spouse.

My question is, then what is the motivation to participate if participation will lead to more frequency and fine tunning , if you will. I think most gg's are willing participants to a point but it is not our thing. We go along because it means something to our spouse, so naturally, most would prefere the frequency to diminish not accelerate.

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty

For some it is, for most it isn't.
Transitioning and Post-Ops mean ratings and are a black and white idea. I'm sure they looked for it. Non-Ops and crossdressers aren't so black and white, require thought to discuss and don't have the ratings shock value.

[Julie York]

As the others have said, there is a huge range of desires and goals and so there isn't a definite answer.

However, I did notice one thing about your post that was rather enlightening because I think you aren't the only GG on the forum to hold this view about being reluctant to participate, as you think it might be 'corrupting' somehow.

Encouraging, or being accepting of a partner who crossdresses, is NOT some form of corruption. You won't make them 'worse'. The reason for this is because the person ALREADY harbours the desires they've been hiding (and probably have done for dozens of years before you even met!). So when someone allows them to express those desires in a safe environment, all it means is that they no longer have to be secretive or deceitful about something they want to do anyway. And may even be more open to observing your comfort limits.

In many cases it is actually the forbidden nature of CDing that makes it fun! It's the same difference between stealing an apple from an orchard and going to the shops and buying one. So when you take away that forbidden element the obsessive nature diminishes.

However, having said this, you must bear in mind that the end of the road....the point at which a CD is quite happy....maybe further along the road than you wish to go.

Some folk are quite happy with a bit of clothing once a month....some want to go out on the town in full-on tranny mode.....others want to go the whole way and transition. By being supportive, it will not make that desire any different. It will just be expressed openly, honestly, and without all the resentment and secrets that go with a supressed desire.

[jill carey]

hi , I think it must be some sort of purgatory , I'v been dressing and progressing for as long as I can remember.being torn apart on a regular basis for the last forty something years and I still cant see an end in sight.
I so wanted to be a woman and I still do and it seems to be getting harder to cope.
Jill

[janelle]

This is my :2c: on this. For me it is hell. Can you picture yourself some place you do not want to be, yet can not leave. Yes you maybe able get get away for a time just to ease things(cd is the closet),yet you are always pulled back to where you were. You hate it more & more & wish for that relief more & more. Soon you come to see that, that this you, & you have been stuck in this other place forever. Now that you meet the terms of yourself you need to tell your spouse, you need to find someone to help you understand what is truely going on, & yet the people you seek are few & far between. So you go mostly on your own. Then your friends start giving you the 5th degree, your job starts to hurt because you know what you need yet your afraid to let them know. You end up seeing a Dr. for depression & you finally see its ok to be yourself,yet you have no to stand with you.
I guess I just gave you my story the only thing is I made the choice to let myself out & be who I found out I was. Is it wrong to want to correct something if you can? I don't believe so. Is it hard for those you love, for sure, yet it eats at you too because you don't wish to hurt anyone you care so much for so you try to hold back. Yet the person you found that has been caged up is alive & wants her freedom so what than?
Yes , I would say that this is when most marriages fall apart. As myself I need to be the woman I know I am inside & slowing letting out. On the other hand I know my wife has needs & this idea of what I was or am should be, so everybodies world is upside down. So what do you do????
Well for me I keep moving forward slowly. I try to make sure that my wife knows how much I love her & how much we need each other. I tell her that what is inside me is the same except I understand her needs abit better as I learn more about myself. So really all that has changed is what people see on the outside. What each person is what is inside them.

Sorry about this being long but this is from my heart & what my wife & I are working at. Yes it can be hell, but it is for both. Yes it can be something beautiful if both people can understand & respect each other( the give & take when you first got married,idea). Yes it is a long & hard road but if one does not take it what happens. Some just split up & then there are those that can not live with it all & take their lives. So is it hell?

Thank you for reading this & again it is only my :2c:, well maybe:2c::2c: worth.
xoxoxoxoxoxoxo,
Janelle

[Faith_G]

One distinction, at least for me, is that the desire to be feminine, with all of the fabulous clothes, is completely different from a desire to be female. I have no interest in being female, but love the clothes. I loooove females, to be around them and dress like them, but I don't want to be one...


As much as I like dressing up and whatnot, I certainly don't mind being a guy and doing guy stuffs including dressing like one, or at least 80% like one because I'm always in lingerie. I know for certain I won't be heading down the road to transexual purgatory as I can't imagine going for the full meal deal. I like the way I am right now, being a dude and dressing up like a girl. It's a turn on, it's fun and relaxing as well. No need to go any further except to buy and try new items of clothing....Me three.

[LaFem]

Absolutely a great question Kitty!

In my case the answer is yes, it is transsexual purgatory. I did not have the fortitude to make the change when I was younger. It (the operation) was scary and primitive, and I didn't have the cojones.

Often an outwardly accepting spouse can become an "enabler," someone who through their acceptance and support makes it easy for a CD husband to get better at being feminine. Unfortunately this seems to make things worse. There is a tipping point, when there is just too much femininity for that SO to even outwardly pretend to accept. It's OK to see your husband's feminine side once in a while, but not so good when he's girly-girl all the time. (I don't just mean dressed, but swishing around and acting fem all the time) I know about this. It's real easy to slip down that slippery nylon slope!

If you find yourself negotiating, cajoling, pressuring, and otherwise using all your wiles to get more "feminine privileges", be careful. Your wonderful SO has her limits. Give her that space.

As far as active denial of a CD husband wanting to really be a woman, I think that is quite common. I read the posts on this forum; many, many express this thought. We have sort of finally accepted (most of us) that we are all TG in some way, and sometimes it can be easy to find ourselves in a different place on that TG spectrum.

[MsJanessa]

well darling I'm sure that all transexuals start as crossdressers, but many crossdressers, in fact the majority I suspect, are not interested in either living full time as a woman or in undergoing SRS. I know I'm not.

[Mistybtm]

for me crossdressing is a form of harmless expression of my feminine side pluss i love it so :D, I am more calm relaxed when dressed and i just love the feeling of being a woman for a time and being treated like one with my male dates yes i am BI. and love the best of both worlds.
Mistybtm

[LoriFlores]

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty

I know in my case it is definately transexual purgatory.

[gennee]

A lot depends upon the person. Personally, I have no desire to transition. I love to wear women's clothing and they are so comfortable. I am very happy and content as a transgender and transvestite.

Gennee


:happy:

[charlie]

I do not mean to offend anyone but after watching the Opra show on Friday I have been doing some serious thinking. (dangerous I know :heehee:)

Both families featured discussed their journey to living full time female. Both considered themselves crossdressers. Both wive's accepted this and even stayed when they transitioned. Both mtf's stated that the urge to crossdress became stronger and stronger progressing to more frequent and more feminine. One claimed he could have been discribed as an efeminate male (his wife said not, she had no idea). One described the feeling as a rage burning within him. A feeling that he would explode if he did not make the transition.
All the while the wive's were thinking this was a phase or something. Obviously these feelings were not expressed to the spouse.

My question is, then what is the motivation to participate if participation will lead to more frequency and fine tunning , if you will. I think most gg's are willing participants to a point but it is not our thing. We go along because it means something to our spouse, so naturally, most would prefere the frequency to diminish not accelerate.

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty

Hello Kitty!
I crossdress because it makes me feel great to see in the mirror a set of legs and outfits that turn me on. In no way do I however want to be a woman. I just like the way it feels and looks. On the other hand the sexy feel is a type of an addiction, I do like to dress whenever I can get away and do it.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

In my own case, I just consider my cross-dressing being an overall lifelong evolution and growing process. It's gone from merely being a sexual fetish when I was younger and in denail. To a few years ago when I came out the closet to myself and said whew! I'm just a CD.

Now I'm slowly progressing to the point where I feel more comfortable being dressed as woman as opposed to a guy. I'm in the process of trying to reduce my the size of my upper body to a more smaller feminine size as opposed to being more muscular. I'm at the point where I totally despise my facial hair and hate having to shave it ever day.

Which is why I'm at the point of pricing various permanent hair removal options. Where this will all end up at, I don't know. I guess for me once the inner woman was let out of the bottle. There was no putting her back in. Jocelyn

[ShannonDragon]

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty

IMHO :2c: NO! I am a crossdresser. I have been a crossdresser all my life. I have no desire to be cut, snipped, pumped up, sucked out or whatever. I am a male. My mind thinks like a male and I plan to stay that way.

Also I am sorry to say :( that I have met a lot of post op TS folk who say they are now female, but sorry folks, many of them still act like your normal male.

:Pullhair: As one of my TG friends is fond of saying " Gender is in your mind, not between you legs".

[Carla Maria]

My, we do get serious at times. I've always enjoyed crossdressing, the feel of the soft and slikys. Just feeling like such a girl. It has been interesting though the years even when kept hidden. Now dressing is becoming easier to share with others. The acceptance from others is surprising at times. I don't think I would want to be a complete woman. I kind of like who I am now and who I will become tomorrow.

[Rachel Morley]

Do crossdressers participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?
Great question. I love threads like this one :happy:

I guess IMHO I would say, it depends. We hear stories all the time of crossdressers who go for it in a big way then apparently something happens to them inside, and they realize that they are a TS all along and then want to transition. Sometimes its not transition but to live full time presenting as a woman.

Then there are other's who I think are like me in the sense that they try to be as feminine as they can both in boy mode and girl mode (in fact what it takes to be really feminine looking in girl mode feminizes your boyself quite a bit) meaning pierced ears, very thin arched eyebrows, shaved hands, arms, legs and body, long shaped fingernails etc. Yet we have no urge to become women or live full time, in fact some of us (not me ... but the majority perhaps?) like to differentiate between boy and girl mode and like to make a clear distinct line between the two as to whether they take a gender vacation or not.

For the most part, I would say that crossdressing is mainly about a ...quote: "harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express". :2c:

[Sophie_C]

I do not mean to offend anyone but after watching the Opra show on Friday I have been doing some serious thinking. (dangerous I know :heehee:)

Both families featured discussed their journey to living full time female. Both considered themselves crossdressers. Both wive's accepted this and even stayed when they transitioned. Both mtf's stated that the urge to crossdress became stronger and stronger progressing to more frequent and more feminine. One claimed he could have been discribed as an efeminate male (his wife said not, she had no idea). One described the feeling as a rage burning within him. A feeling that he would explode if he did not make the transition.
All the while the wive's were thinking this was a phase or something. Obviously these feelings were not expressed to the spouse.

My question is, then what is the motivation to participate if participation will lead to more frequency and fine tunning , if you will. I think most gg's are willing participants to a point but it is not our thing. We go along because it means something to our spouse, so naturally, most would prefere the frequency to diminish not accelerate.

Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty

I think for some, yes, for some, I don't know.

I do know that it's quite obvious that there's a lot of things kept in the closet, even in here, due to potential negative repercussions of TV/CDs wives finding out, whether it is curiosities to all-out desires.

I mean, notice every single thread here involving a question of sexuality. The people who are immediately screaming how they never even considered the other side are first, the ones who are married with wives seeing this forum. Then, come the ones who are married whose wives may discover whatever they post. It's not random. They're always first.

Paraphrasing what was said in the movie "the opposite of sex" people who don't have any certain inclinations "don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it" or immediately react so crazily about it.

Speaking as someone who is extremely closeted TG, I can't say that I understand the fetishistic side of the whole TV/CD thing, so i'll give you that it's possible that TV/CDs are simply fetishists and not TGs with artificial walls placed against taking it further and saying that it's only a fetish, but I can't read their minds. And, with that, they'd not be in purgatory, but simply where they'd want to be.

But, even if that is the case, that's not all people who are in the TV/CD state of being, so to speak, so therefore some definitely are in the purgatory you are talking about (anywhere from a handful of them, to all of them).

How much? We'll never know until it's both a protected and accepted way to live so that those questions can be asked without repercussion. And, that won't happen in any of our lifetimes.

I do think there is a gender spectrum, akin to Kinsey's sexuality spectrum (scale), and will also throw out the possibility that people simply gravitate to where they fall on the scale, naturally. And, maybe it is possible that those who don't go as far on the opposite side of the scale have less of a desire to go further, since that is where they land (think on a scale of 1-10)?

For example,

George Clooney, i'd give a 0:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7999/georgeclooney13001a1fd4zl0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Chris Crocker (Internet Celebrity), i'd put as a 5:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7623/chriscrockeryr8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Shane, from the 'L' Word (not FTM, just not that femme), i'd also put as a 5:

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1026/shanett7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Reese Witherspoon as Elle Woods in "Legally Blonde", i'd give as a 10:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7326/041703blonde1a081eaut1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

But, as I said, we'll never find that out until negative repercussions are gone, so this is a long ways off.

Good question, though...

[BarbaraTalbot]

I wonder if the meaning of purgatory here is not the common connotation of the word as a synonym for Hell, but rather purgatory as the weigh station were souls go after death to await the actual judgment day where they will be sorted into where they actually belong. It seems in some faiths the prays (read support?) of those left behind can influence the outcome of that sifting process?

Really interesting context for discussion..(but interesting doesn't mean easy to answer!)

Anyway, I agree that the answer varies by the transgendered person. I wish I'd seen the Oprah show because 3rd hand its hard to say. I suspect though that my metaphysical twin wouldn't make very good TV. (no pun intended)

She would have wanted to show the extreme of a full time transexual transition. Even with no desire for say surgery dressing and presenting as a woman full-time is quite different individual than those that lack diaspora towards their male.

In the case of those that DO have an uncomfortable feeling about being male, crossdressing isn't even really an accurate label for what they do when they wear clothes to MATCH their gender rather than bend of cross their gender.

I can see that plenty of TS people may well have dabbled in what would appear to be CD-ing,but I keep hearing on the forum that for such, it was never REALLY about the clothes. For CD's it seems to be MOSTLY about the clothes.

I hear a little angst between the lines, as to whether the loved ones are helping their CD's towards peace tranquility, or ????

My take on that is that no just for the SO and family, but for the CD as well this is pretty important stuff to get right. It is reasonable to wonder whether this is a mid-point or an end point on a journey. I do think though that providing an environment where the CD can be honest with the SO and himself will certainly make it a more consistent journey but I don't think it alters the course or speeds up any process.

As far as it has gone for me. Short version, I realized I am actually a crossdresser, she realized, came here, read, decided to be supportive (although neither she nor I could have defined what is supportive at that time!). I talked to her about how I felt, what I thought I felt anyway. We explored discussed, explored. I think I know who I am, I think I am where I will be. We considered whether this is progressive in nature as you suggest. It seems not to be so in my case. I know it is kind of early to say that, but I find that her support doesn't make me want to dress more, it just makes it more fun when I do. In some ways it has reduced the urge a bit, its lost it's whole forbidden fruit flavor and that feels healthy.

[Vaerise]

With many wonderful replies too.

I feel that CD is a purgatory stage for some people who aren't able to transition fully due to circumstances. I think the majority of CDers are.. pleased with being male but have a feminine side in which they can express in their own way.

[Nicki B]

Both mtf's stated that the urge to crossdress became stronger and stronger progressing to more frequent and more feminine. One claimed he could have been discribed as an efeminate male (his wife said not, she had no idea). One described the feeling as a rage burning within him. A feeling that he would explode if he did not make the transition.
All the while the wive's were thinking this was a phase or something. Obviously these feelings were not expressed to the spouse.

.........Is crossdressing transexual purgatory? Do crossdresseres participate in active denial that they really want to be women but do not have the nerve or the ability to do so? Or is crossdressing a form of harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express?

Kitty, it seems to me that the underlying assumption (fear?) in your question is, will we all transition - i.e. is it a slippery slope with only one end for all who dress?

The answer to that HAS to be no - those who fully transition are a small minority. Transitioning is hard, painful (for everyone) and you don't go through all that unless you absolutely have to - for most of us, compromise is possible, if not essential? Remember, shows like Oprah survive on extremes...

But (and it's a big but) this is not a 'choice' - it's the way we are made? How we deal with it is where we have flexibility, but the more we try and suppress that side, the harder it gets... Conversely, the more we let it out, the easier, which I think may be what you find so worrying?

So the answer to your question is, we are all different in the distance we need to travel on that journey. Talk to your partner to help the pair of you understand how far you need to go - but if this has been buried for a long time, expect a few onion skins to be peeled off, before you get to the bottom of it?

Luv,

[Nicki B]

for me crossdressing is a form of harmless expression of my feminine side pluss i love it so


For the most part, I would say that crossdressing is mainly about a ...quote: "harmless expression of a feminine side that men are not allowed to routinly express".

There does perhaps seem to be some wishful thinking, here.. If you are in a close relationship with a woman, unless she is comfortably bisexual, how can it be 'harmless'??

[kittypw GG]

Great answers!!!!!

I think that communication of one's desires is really what jumped out at me. I understand that participating is not going to make someone want to become a women if that desire was not already there but the real question is my mind is wether or not that person is being honest about their desires. Some of you reminded me that thoes desires may be quite hidden from the individual and come out more and more as the fem side is being expressed. A real scary road for the average gg in this kind of relationship. On one hand you want to make your spouse happy and participate but on the other hand you avoid it because you don't know where it will go and don't really want to find out.

My husband has gone through a phase that he thought that he was a women trapped in a man's body. He says that he was confused and did not know what this desire was to wear womens clothes or want to look fem. He thought that he must be a transexual. The more I learn about crossdressers the more I am inclined to believe that he no longer has this idea that he wants to be a women. So where does that put him. us? Or any cd couple for that matter?

Some of you reminded me that great sacrifices are being made on the CD's/Ts's side in the name of love and respect for their commitment in marriage. I am humbled by this.

Thanks for all of your replies. Having discussions like this really helps me define what I think and feel about difficult topics. Sometimes these topics are necessary discussions to have but you would really rather slam your thumb with a hammer. :heehee:
You all are really the greatest bunch. :hugs::love: Kitty

[renee k]

You participate because you love your SO and this is a part of them. If they are really transexual instead of cd then I think eventually that will come out, with or without support. If your spouce was transexual, would you really like to "force" them ,directly or indirectly, to remain where they are not happy? I don't think so. I am honest with my wife that there are some urges for something more than CDing. But I am also honest to myself that transitioning would probably not be an improvement for me. There are trade offs in both cases and each person has to balance all the possible pros and cons before taking non-reversable actions.

I agree with Sally. If I were younger and didn't have a family or career that I care more about. I probalby would have transitioned. But I'm happy with where I'm at with my dressing and have taken it as far as I can without going under the knife.

Huggs, Renee

[laura.lapinski]

I agree with Livy m b. I was at a point, scared to death not knowing where it would go. It only lasted a few weeks, and now I know I am only an occasional, in the closet CD, who doesn't want any more than that.

[AmandaM]

For those who know they are, by the old definition, a transvestite, it is only expressing femininity. For those who know they are transsexual, it is becoming the woman they were meant to be. For those of us in between, it is purgatory in a way. Am I only a CD or really a woman? Personally, not knowing is purgatory, it causes me a lot of stress. If I knew it was a crossdressing thing and I liked being a man, heck, then I know where I stand. On the other side of the coin, if I knew I was a woman, then that would be easier too.

[jenniferj]

Kitty,

What a wonderful question! I also subscribe to the "1000 answers" response, as well as the idea that we are likely to be ineffective at analyzing ourselves.

Perhaps the best way to view this is that there is no single aspect to sexuality and gender. Clearly we can often see differences between sexual preference and gender identification; it probably goes much farther than that with many continuums over many traits.

Let me suggest a metaphor: Tennis. Many people like to play tennis and are very competitive. Many people pay money to take tennis lessons, and play tennis when they really should be doing other things. Many people buy expensive rackets and sneakers, and go away on tennis weekends. But very few people are full-time tennis players; they realize that there are other aspects to their life that are also important and just don't care enough about tennis to devote their whole life to it. However, they still being tennis players for a few hours at a time. That is probably where most crossdressers lie - they enjoy "being" feminine, but also realize that thay enjoy being men. They may fantasize about being women, they may obsess about women's clothes, but in the end the other traits dominate.

From what I have read, many transexuals have had a very hard time coming to terms with their gender identification, but they did - because they had to. It was so important to them that they endured incredible emotional and physical pain in order to be able to express themselves as they feel they are. Most crossdressers don't have this certainty, because they are more conflicted by the contradictory traits. And as such, they are likely to be very individual in nature.

Now there are a number of crossdressers who have made the decision to live dressed 24/7. How do we classify them? Do we have to? They have made a lifestyle choice that satisfies their needs. How many part-time crossdressers will become full-time? You can probably predict in individual cases whether this is likely to occur by giving a "stable" (i.e. post-pink fog) CD the chance to stay dressed indefinitely (vacation or whatever) and seeing how she feels when it comes time to change back. I expect that most are glad to be a guy again...

I really don't know about myself...

-jj

[Mirani]

I sometimes wistfully wish I had been born a woman - I would have loved to have been a mother and nurtured a child in a way only a mother can.

Then I realise that my view on womanhood is not realistic :) - it can be a living hell! PMT - no thanks! Childbirth pain - No thanks!

I like myself as a guy - I think that because I can fully express all of who I am (mostly whenever I want), then I am a better man - if that makes sense.

I dress from time to time, and love presenting as female from time to time. But, I dont want to BE a woman but I am honoured to be perceived and adressed and accepted as a woman.

OMG! in all honesty, sometimes I confuse myself - it doesnt make any sense at all.

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

somewhat for some

[Carin's Wife GG]

IMO. Certainly for me. I need constant reassurance that this will not happen. As the dressing continues I wonder where it will end. I don't know and that is scary.


Louise.

[Paula Wilder]

For me it's like the Jim Carey movie "The Mask". When I'm dressed in female clothing I want to be all woman, and strongly desire the full transition. Then, when I'm in male clothing I think about it fairly often, but don't have quite the same intensity of desire or emotion to become the "woman within." Maybe I'm more like the movie "Sybil" with multiple personalities, but I think it's fine either way -

[Khriss]

a.."rainbow of experiences ..or desires" ?
...catagories ... suck ! I want to feel free to be ME !
not pidgeonholed no doubt !
though I'm a member of a unique "Sisterhood" ..of Souls I very much love...and can relate to... I'm greatfull for that !!
xx"K"

[kittypw GG]

IMO. Certainly for me. I need constant reassurance that this will not happen. As the dressing continues I wonder where it will end. I don't know and that is scary.


Louise.

Exactly Louise, sometimes I wonder if I am holding my hubby back and if he wasn't with me he would be able to live the life he is truly intended to live. I wonder if he resents me in some ways. Resents me for actually being a women and resents the fact that he can't be? Are we both in transexual purgatory?
Kitty

[faltenrock]

Kitty, I think a lot has been said here. Not much to add.

However, I dress very feminine, I like to do it quite often, when on my own in the house. But I tell you, when I'm out in public, after two days in a row at the most, I start feeling uncomfortable and bored by dressing up. Then I'm happy to get back into my male clothes, my jeans and so on. That's been that way since the last 15 years of going out.

At home, it also makes me slow working and doing the stings I have to do, it just occupies me to much sometimes. Yes we're all different.

In one aspect I fully agree with you. if my wife would be supportive, I might dress more and would do more things that I don't do now. But still, I'm a man and I feel good about being male, on the other hand, I would not want to give up dressing - my wife knows that. I had to agree, that I leave her out of the game and that I won't dress around her.

[Ms_Judys_pet]

i think of it as my feminine side. i can't bring it to work, but i can find it at home and sometimes other places.

i will admit, if i go make a complete transition for as a temporary thing, i would do it in a heart beat. i'd love to spend a couple weeks as a woman. However, i prefer being a male in women's clothing.

The purgetory was when i couldn't accept myself and didn't feel like others would accept. my wife's acceptance, she knew when we started dating, has been incredibly liberating.
Fortunately for me, my wife tends to think of me in women's clothing, at the very least the jeans and top. She loves seeing me in skirts, dresses etc.
Another mentioned being a reenactor. i stripped the paint from my toes for a revolutionary war reenactment. i do a fairly hardcore interpretation and need to be able to change sox etc in the open. Mistress (my wife) had me paint them as soon as i got home. It just didn't seem right to her for me to be running around the house with naked toes. She tends to be the same way about men's clothes. She associates my men's clothes with work, and women's clothes with being home.
So i would say the purgetory part was prior to finding acceptance at home.
i'm not trapped between genders so much as trapped in a world that thinks too narrow.

[Rachaelb64]

Me, It probably started as a sexual fetish, in my early years, became an escape route for my depression and stress, now I do it because I simply like it.

10yrs ago when my depression was really bad I did think about transition, but I'm glad I never went through with it, all I really had to do is like myself.

So now I'm happy with who I'm a Person of two halves :happy:

[Carin's Wife GG]

Exactly Louise, sometimes I wonder if I am holding my hubby back and if he wasn't with me he would be able to live the life he is truly intended to live. I wonder if he resents me in some ways. Resents me for actually being a women and resents the fact that he can't be? Are we both in transexual purgatory?
Kitty

and we have had many discussions about this. The burden of keeping this *secret* from our children (who now know and are accepting) was truly terrible. I believe it was a part of the major depression I encountered in 2006. We have decided to go to couples counseling to work at some *negotiations* for both of us. We realize that there is no *win/win in all of this. We both lose something. For my husband he loses my complete acceptance in this particular area and I lose the male side of him for the most part. I believe this is something we can live with and move forward, so does he. Not the most pleasant of sitiations bit life is not always that fair. We love each other and have a huge history together. That is something to believe in. My stroke changed my mind and my thinking which is why this might seem unusual to folks reading this. I had spent my entire life living to please others (including my husband) and the stroke somehow allowed me to see more clearly what I could not see before. It took my voice for a while but allowed me to find it again in a more honest way. Sometimes that honesty is hard to swallow but it is at least truly how i feel.

Thanks again for a great question.


Louise.

[Linda C]

Like anything else it's all different for all of us... for me it's just a way to waste some time, de-stress and do a little role playing - my wife works so much that I needed a friend to play with and not step out on her. . she is way to cool for that crap.. At this point in my life I just want to play around with it - nothing to serious - and that's just me...

[Nicki B]

i'm not trapped between genders so much as trapped in a world that thinks too narrow.

I think that needs saying again... :yt:

[RobertaFermina]

Dear Kittypw,

Purgatory - you go there and the intention is you move on, eventually, to heaven - with enough intercessional prayer and penitence and patience you get elevated to Heaven - purgatory, to purge you of your earthly sins (errors).

It could be a stage to let go of masculine traits that have been erroneously taken on, or taken on as a strain. It could lead to a more harmonious balance of masculine and feminine energies in the form of a renewed man, or a new woman, or the "purgation" could continue endlessly, into Limbo (another thread, I presume).

So Purgatory? Yes!

Is it a Purgatory that necessarily leads to Transition? I don't know. I would be afraid if that were to be true for me, and, at present, I don't believe it is so. Since other TS's felt that way, initially, as CDers, there is cause to view my beliefs with skepticism......

One thing that counters that skepticism...I still LOVE to do all things MANLY (That's what She Said !).

Oh Well!?

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[flacindycd]

IT changes for me, sometimes i feel trapped, other times its my escape

[Rhonda Jean]

Hi Kitty,

A deep question. Impossible to answer adequately. What I can tell you is that for me there has been a constant progression. I won't bore you with a biography, but, I've come a long way from a little boy with long hair whose mother rolled up in curlers. The progression is not at all constant. It is only predictable in that there will always be more.

A quick example. I've been dressing forever. Completely. Going out in public, the whole works. In all those years, the one thing I was always uncomfortable was a purse. I had purses, and I carried them on occasion, but they just never felt right. Always seemed to be in the way. I kept trying because I felt like a purse was an important accessory to the overall look. I kept pushing myself to get used to it. i bought several purses of various descriptions. Still would rather leave it in the car. Then a couple of things happened.

My car was broken into and my purse was stolen. Luckily I had my wallet with me, but it gave me a real reason to carry my purse with me, if I was going to have one at all. During this same time my hairdresser started carrying a line of purses, and every time I got my hair done she'd tell me to "be sure to check out my purses" even though she'd never seen me carry one. I'd try them and she'd always comment about how cute it looked or what it would go with.

Somewhere along the line I became comfortable carrying a purse, to the point where I felt like I really needed it. I find myself looking for my purse even in guy mode. I now love carrying a purse, and don't go anywhere without one if I'm "barely feminine". Some time ago I realized It'd become so routine that I didn't even think about it.

This is going a long way around with a boring story just to say you never know when it's done. No I don't think I'm transexual, if that means having some mediacal proceedure. But over the years doing girly things that most men would rather die than do has become ordinary for me.

Back before I cut my hair I could go get my hair done in any feminine style you can imagine, in drab or drag, familiar salon or not, without any fear or hesitation whatsoever. Same with my nails, getting my eyebrows waxed, shopping for clothes, even buying makeup and trying it out at the makeup counter.

I still had my guy side that, to me, was remarkably unchanged by all this. But I'd been doing this for a long time, had never had a bad experience, and just became comfortable doing it.

Because I became so used to doing all this there was definately less dilenation between my male and female sides. Think of it this way. In the beginning the was male on one side and female on the other, with a bold vertical line separating the two. over the years that line began to tilt, until now the line is horizontal. Next thing you know there are arrows on both ends of the line. Then the line becomes shorter. Does the line ever go away? I don't think it will for me. For some, though the line goes away, the two merge, an "female" is the only thing visible.

Transexual Purgatory? Probably not. If you husband is anything like me, though, there will be a years-long progression. Look at what he does now. What he did a year ago, five years ago. Most likely there has been some progression. Chances are that that progression will continue. That doesn't mean that he's headed toward being a full-time woman. For me, it's kind of a mathematical progression. You can take any number and divide by 2 (for example) forever and never reach zero. We just never know what number we'll be at when something inside us will tell us it's time to quit dividing.

This is beginning to sound really stupid. I better go!

Rhonda

[Ms_Judys_pet]

There does perhaps seem to be some wishful thinking, here.. If you are in a close relationship with a woman, unless she is comfortably bisexual, how can it be 'harmless'??

:2c:

i have been married to a bi-sexual woman and now a woman who is straight.

She has experimented and confirmed, she has no sexual interest in women.
There are women who find their husband's dressing enjoyable, both in a sexual, and a non-sexual context. Judy knew about my dressing when we started dating. It was actually part of the attraction.

(my first wife wasn't really into my dressing. She kind of tolerated it. Occasionally it substituted for having a girlfriend. Usually, my CDing was something i wore under my clothes and she didn't see much of. For the record, my first wife is now a lesbian..)