Differences across the water

[bi_weird]

So I have this new friend from Turkey. He's really fun and we're always teasing each other and whatnot. Of course, he sees me as a boyish girl, 'cause that's how I present. A couple of things he's said, though, makes me wonder how different America and Turkey/Europe are. He's made a couple of jokes about how I should wear a skirt, even when I'm wearing really girly pants, and then last night I was telling him the story of the tool kit I got for my birthday last year, and he replied "Tool kit?! Why not a makeup kit?" It seems like he's honestly at a loss as to how to deal with my masculine tendencies, because he's half serious when he suggests skirts and makeup.
Soooo. Is it really that different over there? Is he just teasing me? Maybe he's flirting with me... dunno. Any ideas? I guess partly I'm just curious to hear from people who've spent time in more than one country how different countries view gender. I never really considered it, so I've just always assumed everyone acted like Americans, but that seems rather egocentric...

[Anthony Jake]

Hmm, thats quite an intresting question..
I would say that turkey is obviously going to be a little less open that say the USA.. as england is.. I mean, at least my opinion of england is that although were sort of beginning to be open about sexuality it sort of limits its self to Bi, gay, straight..thus transgendered is still a little tabboo.. I feel as though england is more open to the MtF than the FtM.. least, when i heard of trans issues in england it is mainly based around the MtF factor.
I used to live in NYC, and i found that the gay scene / trans scene was much more happening out there than it is here.. when i came back to england it was like certain openings which you feel that you have out in the USA were closed again.
I cant really say much about the rest of europe, tho i do have a trans (FtM) friend who is out in amsterdam for this semester and he has told me that although it is amsterdam and we think or assume that it is a very open minded country (probably to do with all the sex shops out there and the red light scene, and the whole weed smoking thing) Its actually far more conservative about gender.
Im not sure about spain, though i would think that that is quite open to gender as when i met some people out there ( from being on holiday) they seemed quite accepting and open)
France i think is also a pretty accepting country, which will have a fairly decent LGBT scene and service.

As for the person you're talking to from turkey..hmm, perhaps he is either flirting with you or simply trying to wind you up in a comical (to him) sorta way.. either that or he is simply nervous and doesnt really know how to react. Im presuming he knows your trans.. and perhaps if he is flirting with you he is finding it difficult to have 'manly' chat with you as he is used to being flirty and trying to have feminine conversations with those he is attracted to..

Blah.. well.. iv now pretty much lost track of what im supposed to be sorta replying about.. but i hope i have said at least something which is of intrest..

this is quite a long post for me! :bunny:

[Nicki B]

Turkey is perhaps best not thought of like Europe?

It's at the crossroads between Europe and Asia (it borders Iran, Iraq, Syria, Azerbaijan & Georgia, and touches Bulgaria & Greece). It's a Muslim country like no other, with a fiercely macho culture?

The rest of the world is not like the US of A.. Perhaps you should think of travelling, to find out? :)

[Xaff]

I live in Europe, the Netherlands. I think you can't see Europe as a whole in this case. Every country has a diffrent culture, and diffrent habbits. It's not like the USA. The USA is one country, Europe is a lot of countries. It's also the case when you cross the border. The Netherlands is looking very diffrent than Germany. And also diffrent than Belgium. The culture is also diffrent. But the countries are next to eachother.

Also everyone has diffrent values.
I hope it makes things more clear. :-)

[Marla S]

Though partly a part of Europe Turkey is a whole different culture, and probably more important religion, and is hardly to compare to USA or central Europe.
In general they have a by far more strict separation of the genders and a more traditional view on the gender roles ... you could call it macho with religious background.
Even a lot of 3rd generation Turks living in Germany still have this very traditional view. I actually don't wonder that he seems to be at loss with your masculine side. That would rather be the rule than the exception.
It's not uncommon that parents chose the husband for their daughter without asking her, and things like this.
Three years ago a Turkish woman was murdered here in G by her brothers in order to protect the honor of the family, because she refused to live the traditional way.
Of course there are quite a few also that go along with Western culture. The capital Anakara is a bit more open towards gays.

[SirTrey]

Maybe you should Google some information about Turkey, their customs, etc. and see what you can find out....Might give you some insight to do that. Cultural differences between countries and regions can be VERY significant....Anyway, hope you get your answers! **Trey** :)

[Nicki B]

It's not like the USA. The USA is one country

IME the West Coast, the East Coast and the bit in the middle are all different countries... ;)

[Kieron Andrew]

IME the West Coast, the East Coast and the bit in the middle are all different countries... ;)

They certainly seem to have different ideas and values

[Nicki B]

I live in Europe, the Netherlands.

Xaff, would you agree that Amsterdam is much more liberal than the rest of the country - which tends to be much more traditional and strongly protestant?

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

Ooooooh. Bi, you bring up a really good question about gender and gender roles in other countries. Now, I actually have several Muslim friends (not from Turkey, so I know it's not the same thing) and they are very traditional about gender roles. One of my Iranian friends had to wear her hijab at our public high school, even though it got her harrassed on more than one occasion (or once some morons decided to try and kill her in dodgeball)... I also had a Pakistani friend who's parents were trying to marry her off (at 15) to a 23-year-old man living in Pakistan. :eek: Long story short, the faith in general sees women as very, very secondary to men and that's my main hang-up with my male Islamic friends. I hope your Turkish friend can hopefully come to appreciate all your characterstics, at the same time as you can come to understand his culture a little better.


Though partly a part of Europe Turkey is a whole different culture, and probably more important religion, and is hardly to compare to USA or central Europe.
In general the have a by far more strict separation of the genders and a more traditional view on the gender roles ... you could call it macho with religious background.
Even the majority of 3rd generation Turks living in Germany still have this very traditional view. I actually don't wonder that he seems to be at loss with your masculine side. That would rather be the rule than the exception.
It's not uncommon that parents chose the husband for their daughter without asking her, and things like this.
Three years ago a Turkish woman was murdered here in G by her brothers in order to protect the honor of the family, because she refused to live the traditional way.
Of course there are quite a few also that go along with Western culture. The capital Anakara is a bit more open towards gays.

Yeah.... I heard about the murder incident... it was a big deal and we discussed it in our German class. Since you live in Germany, Marla, could you maybe give me an idea of the social climate for LGBT people? I'm hoping to study abroad there for a year and it'd be good to know what I'm getting myself into. :happy:

Edit: I'm going to also agree that while the US is under one flag, we definitely have our microcultures that act as their own countries. There are things you can get away with in North California that you'd get shot for in the Deep South. Also, cities tend to be significantly more liberal than more rural areas, as a general rule (not just USA).

[Xaff]

Xaff, would you agree that Amsterdam is much more liberal than the rest of the country - which tends to be much more traditional and strongly protestant?

What's liberal??? :straightface:

You know the north of the country is I belive more protestant, and the south more kartholiek. That was becose of the Spanish also occupied this country is the past. And they where katholiek. (Some history) It would make Amsterdam a slitly more protestant idd. But also many people traveled to Amsterdam, so of that city you can't tell that one exactly. I belive also in Amsterdam are living more ethnick cultures than in New York. So immagene that. :happy:

[ZenFrost]

I had a friend from Turkey who had very similar views on gender roles. He was very confused that I played a male in a performance and he also got very confused by a guy in the class who was gay. It seems that LGBT stuff is very closeted in Turkey, at least that's the impression I got from him.

[Marla S]

Since you live in Germany, Marla, could you maybe give me an idea of the social climate for LGBT people? I'm hoping to study abroad there for a year and it'd be good to know what I'm getting myself into. :happy:
In general I'd say not too bad, could be worse. ;)
The LGB part is fairly accepted (politicians, actors, comedians entertainers etc. are openly gay or lesbian), but rednecks are everywhere and there are certainly some no-go-areas. I have the impression people still doing a bit harder with the T part though. On the other side I was pleased to see that the public library in Berlin hired 3 MTF TSs for customer service. Years ago a MTF CD even got the Federal Cross of Merit for her cultural work, but she (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_von_Mahlsdorf) left the G because of some Neo-Nazi attacks. So it's mixed, from good to evil, depending on where you go.
I think it would be best to go to Hamburg, Cologne (LGB-capital) or Berlin ( kinda cheap and lots of folks from all over the world). You'll find like minded people and support groups there. They can provide more information. I think you'll have more fun than trouble, if any.:happy:

[bi_weird]

Wow so many answers so quickly. :-) I'd forgotten that Turkey was Muslim... I should find out if my friend is religious. Luckily he's not being annoying or anything, just teasing me a bit which is fine. But yeah good to hear everyone's opinions. For a poor little grad student like myself, this is as close to world travelling as I'm likely to get for a few years yet.

[Tobie]

Watch the teasing closely though, because it sounds like it could easily turn into annoyance or worse.

As for liberal countries... guess the resident Canuck would like to point out that CANADA is a very liberal country. We have a federal human rights code, which covers everything from the average joe, to seniors, to GLBT, to pregnant and BFing mothers, to everything.

[Kieron Andrew]

Wow so many answers so quickly. :-) I'd forgotten that Turkey was Muslim... I should find out if my friend is religious. Luckily he's not being annoying or anything, just teasing me a bit which is fine. But yeah good to hear everyone's opinions. For a poor little grad student like myself, this is as close to world travelling as I'm likely to get for a few years yet.

I hate to say this but being a Turkish man and probably not up on trans issues cos its a no-no in his country of origin he probably fancies 'she' therefore is just teasing around with the he stuff

[Abraxas]

Half of my family is Iranian or Turkish/Iranian... While they've always seemed accepting of me (they're not religious-- my dad's brothers and sisters call themselves "Muslim"-- with air quotations), I do get the occasional 'so, are we ever gonna see you in a dress again?' from them. I just tell them no. And my young cousins do seem to have a lot of questions for/about me, but that could just be because they're young and curious, and less because they're Iranian (they were born here, but have traveled there a lot). But I think, as far as the Middle East is concerned (and I do consider Turkey to be part of the M.E., at least culturally), they're much more liberal than most people. And that may well have to do that they've been living in America/other parts of the 'Western' world for... eesh, 30 years or so.
They have kept a lot of their cultural things, such as the family dinners (although now they eat at the table instead of the sofre on the floor), and the weddings and mourning rituals are traditionally Persian... They haggle prices at the grocery store (my grandma will buy absolutely anything if it's on sale), etc. But they are rather Americanised, I'd say. The women (who don't take their husbands' surname, which I find interesting in a patriarchal culture) have jobs, the men help the kids with their homework, etc.
Anyway, the gender thing still seems to be an issue. I'm... not entirely sure what my point is, but I hope I've made it.

*feeling confused about life in general*