I can pass better than you...

[Nicki B]

I made a post on the Ultimate Crossdressers (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1054985#post1054985) thread which nobody seems to have picked up on....



:sb:

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them.. :werd:

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...:Angry3:

Or am I really just in a minority of one? :strugglin

[Lovely Rita]

I made a post on the Ultimate Crossdressers (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1054985#post1054985) thread which nobody seems to have picked up on....

:sb:

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them.. :werd:

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...:Angry3:

Or am I really just in a minority of one? :strugglin


Nicki, I posted a similar thread months ago and it certainly was fuel for lively discussion. Interesting to revisit the same subject matter.:hugs:

[Marla S]

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?
Right, but is there really the intention to change anything ?

Or is the wish to change something just the effect that 99%
of us don't pass (all the time).

I guess if there would be the choice between passing and changing, the vast majority would go for passing and leave any definition of gender and gender roles untouched. The latter is quite often only a workaround IMO.

[Nicki B]

Rita, you mean this one (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63373)? Sorry, I'm still new around here...


Marla - don't most of us want to the world to feel more accepting? :strugglin Fear seems to be where so many of us start, if not reside permanently?

[Kate Simmons]

I hear what you are saying Nicki and I get slightly annoyed by this myself. Everyone I make contact with knows I am a CD and I make no pretense to be otherwise, even so, I enjoy the occassional compliments. I've had people say "no way you are a guy and I say yes, way, I am." I've even come to the point of showing some folks my license to prove it (I don't think I look THAT good really). Bottom line is I want them to know I'm a guy, otherwise what's the point? Being "invisible" accomplishes nothing IMO."Oh, so you have to get dressed up like a woman to have fun? No, I don't have to, I like to", there is a difference. I don't make an issue about it in any case. When they see my purpose is to have fun and enjoy being myself some see that we are maybe not that weird after all. Works for me.:happy:

[Nicki B]

Salandra, speaking for myself, I don't think I'm a guy... But I'm certainly not a woman, either?

I confess I would get upset if people treated me like a 'bloke'?

[Dita_B]

I, for one, go for both. Passing is my first objective but I am not that foolish that I think I pass all the time.

So in those instances I know I don't pass, I have the hope that I trigger in those that pick up on it, an awareness of a segment in the public that wishes to express themselves as members of the opposite sex...

And I hope that somewhere in their hearts they may appreciate the efforts that I and my sisters have gone through to make our appearance as good as humanly possible. At least I am aiming for their thinking: "that may be a guy in drag, but boy does she ever look good"...

Observing this phenomenon on a regular basis, which is unavoidable when one cruises the Malls all the time, may help to create awareness and tolerance for our cause... People get used to it and that might pave the way to encourage those CD's still in the closet, to venture out as well...

At least, that is my hope...

:love:Dita.

[Kate Simmons]

Salandra, speaking for myself, I don't think I'm a guy... But I'm certainly not a woman, either?

I confess I would get upset if people treated me like a 'bloke'?Well, speaking for myself Nicki, even after I make it known who I really am, some folks continue to relate to me as a gal anyway, not that I'm complaining mind you. I just want there to be no misunderstandings up front. Sometimes it is gauged by how you present when you meet them. This is one thing mystifying about this whole CDing thing that I've experienced. To most people I know who met me as Sal, I'm always Sal whether I'm Sal or Rich. Go figure.:heehee:

[Nicki B]

Like Rita on her thread, this was not intended as an attack on those who do pass - more to the attitudes that make us want to?

But I do have plenty of friends who have made the journey through transition, who feel that they've 'paid their dues' in changing attitudes?

I am NOT trying to be divisive, here - I believe we stand together, or all suffer?

[Stephenie S]

I made a post on the Ultimate Crossdressers (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1054985#post1054985) thread which nobody seems to have picked up on....



:sb:

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them.. :werd:

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...:Angry3:

Or am I really just in a minority of one? :strugglin

Not sure what your point is here, hon.

Are you complaining about the hierarchy? Or lamenting that you don't pass? Very true that if no one notices you, then YOU in particular are not doing much to advance the "cause" so to speak. But some of us (well, ME for instance), don't want to be noticed. I just want to be left alone to live my life the way I want to.

I can't "pass". There's no way. But I can and do live and work as a woman 24/7. That's what I want to do. I supose I MUST be doing SOME good, as people see me, talk to me, and interact with me on a daily basis. They can easily see that I'm not a freak, or a weirdo, or a child molester. I'm just a woman of a "certain age" doing her job and trying to keep her head above water.

It's true that the world needs more education. But that IS happening. Slowly but surely. There was reference to a new television show this AM on Regis and Kelly that has a TG character played by a TG actor. Now THAT'S progress if I ever saw it. There is more and more public awareness every day. Will we see the day when it's OK to do what we want, when we want, any time soon? I dunno. But things are getting better. Could I be doing what I'm doing now, 30 years ago? I doubt it.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Violetgray]

What is so great about passing? Hmm let me think...

O.k. This is the way that I see it:

Women, just by being women, are beautiful. If I get dressed up and I go out, and the people that see me and glance over me as just another woman, then by extension they are telling me that I am beautiful. Follow me?

But its not just about what they think. First and foremost its about what I think. I feel a need to see something attractive when I look in the mirror.

And the need to pass better than someone else? I sure hope you have not seen that in some among us... that would be unfortunate and petty not to mention ultimately futile because there's always someone you'll feel can pass better than you! That having been said, I have seen other places how some TS look down on the other gender variant people..

[Marla S]

Marla - don't most of us want to the world to feel more accepting? :strugglin True, but where does this come from ? This feeling only rises when we are personally effected by non-acceptance. Otherwise we probably couldn't care less.

Which higher form of acceptance a CD can achieve than passing as a woman ?
It's usually an illusion though, at least when it concerns "normal" socialization.


Fear seems to be where so many of us start, if not reside permanently?
Of course, because we feel non-accepted.

The way out, as already stated:
1.) Passing
if this doesn't work
2.) Seeking for other forms of acceptance and claiming that passing is not important.

If it only would be to look good and/or feminine all this padding, breastforms, aka names and stuff wouldn't be required. We would just try to look our best with what we have. But the goal is to look like a woman, in order to be accepted as a woman (usually the stereotypical one), aka passing.
Very few are able to in real life, some more on pics, the majority isn't; but most dream about this illusion.
And this passing hierarchy causes the "tranny" hierarchy.
The more you look like a woman the more easy you are accepted by the society and by the TG community, because TG community also has very traditional and stereotypical views ... sometimes even more traditional than society.

Nothing wrong with this, but IMO that's the way it is.

[Nicki B]

Not sure what your point is here, hon.

Are you complaining about the hierarchy? Or lamenting that you don't pass?

Well yes to the first, and no to the second... I'm complaining about the apparent 'need' amongst some (many??) for both?



But some of us (well, ME for instance), don't want to be noticed. I just want to be left alone to live my life the way I want to.

I can't "pass". There's no way. But I can and do live and work as a woman 24/7. That's what I want to do. I supose I MUST be doing SOME good, as people see me, talk to me, and interact with me on a daily basis. They can easily see that I'm not a freak, or a weirdo, or a child molester. I'm just a woman of a "certain age" doing her job and trying to keep her head above water.

I think (though you may not realise it) that we are very much in agreement. Cultures can't be changed overnight - it takes decades? And it happens drip by drip if we all (or those of us who feel we can) add our drop of water? I'm not saying 'throw it in their faces', just accept yourself?

But I see so many people putting such effort into 'passing' and really feeling gutted when someone unkindly reminds them that they don't... When actually, all they need is to be proud of who they are?

The normal attitude I've met, from both genetic women and men, when friends & I are out, is respect that we are willing to be ourselves?

IMHO the trans world is full of very courageous people, though most of them would say 'I'm just living my life, as best I can'?

The bravest girl I know (who picks herself up everytime, then scares herself silly all over again) keeps telling me what a coward she is.. :hugs:

[tracigirl_tv]

..... First and foremost its about what I think. I feel a need to see something attractive when I look in the mirror.....



Violet, I am in agreement with you here. Undoubtedly, our vanity quotient is above-average.

I had a gf (gg) once who said that I was selfish....she meant it not as a put-down, but simply as an observation. Many of us have given up certain things for the sake of our dressing, and I guess that does make us selfish, doesn't it?

(Hmmm, I may have drifted off-topic here...):heehee:

[Patti Girl]

Very interesting thread and I think the responses show that the very different reasons among us for dressing.

Some want to make a statement, and perhaps be noticed for what they are, and want to promote crossdressing. Some of us just feel comfortable en femme and don't want to make waves. Just like some gays want to live quietly and peacefully and privately while others prefer the extreme "in your face" approach.

I'm not passable so I don't go out dressed, at least not in any observable way. Maybe someday I'll feel different.



And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD...


Interesting comment. In my view (FWIW) of things (and according to Wikipedia and Dr. Harry Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale), TG encompasses the entire range from occassionaly CD to full TS. TG isn't in the middle, it's the entire range. Of course the Internet is full of varied views and opinions and sometimes downright misinformation :)

Personally, I don't see that anyone is better than anyone else, from the occasional "I can sneak panties on while the wife is away" to the full 24/7 girl able to pass. I do feel that those who are able to do what they want without limits are more fortunate that those limited by the environment (or marriage).

Patti

[Nicki B]

Which higher form of acceptance a CD can achieve than passing as a woman ?

Wouldn't being accepted as something other than a man or woman be a [-]higher[/-] another form of acceptance? I think you're saying there can only be 'either/or', a very binary view of gender?


The way out, as already stated:
1.) Passing
if this doesn't work
2.) Seeking for other forms of acceptance and claiming that passing is not important.

I've obviously missed a discussion - can you point me to where? :)


But the goal is to look like a woman, in order to be accepted as a woman (usually the stereotypical one), aka passing.
Very few are ale to in real life, some more on pics, the majority isn't; but most dream about this illusion.
And this passing hierarchy causes the "tranny" hierarchy.

Mmm - and so much pain?


TG community also has very traditional and stereotypical views ... sometimes even more traditional than society.

Yet, since we cross genders, shouldn't we be encouraging more fluidity, not less?


Nothing wrong with this, but IMO that's the way it is.

With respect - I think there is something wrong with it, or we as a community wouldn't be so guilt-ridden and prone to anger, depression, suicide? Why does it have to be the way it is, can't we try to change it?
:strugglin

[Brianna Lovely]

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them.


Ok, so I'm a mature lady, and I don't think I pass, most of the time.
Does that keep me inside? Not on your life!

Would I like to be a 20 year old, with a perfect figure? Yes! But I'll have to settle for being myself.
I'm a gurl who wears fem clothes and a wig all the time. Sometimes I wear forms and full makeup, but that usually takes too much time to get ready, so most of the time, it's a skirt, fem top, wig, light lipstick, purse, sandals and out the door.

I go to most of the same places, meetings, restaurants, stores, gas station, post office etc. in both modes, semi-fem and full-fem.

And I make it a point, to explain to those who ask, that I'm a TG person.

[Kate Simmons]

This is one of the reasons I left the TG Org I was in. Don't get me wrong, they do help promote understanding but my problem was I had to be myself. You can't do that when someone is trying to press you into a mold regardless of how beneficial it may seem. The whole "TG hierarchy" is a load of dunky dust and we all know it. Much better to appreciate and accept folks for who they are as people in my opinion, not to mention less work.:happy:

[Kieron Andrew]

Its this simple to me, im very happy to 'pass' (hate that term btw) as a Transman rather than a GM, im proud of my Trans status and proud of the Trans community, i dont want to be accepted as a GM, i want to be accepted as a Trans person cos thats what i am and dont want to deny that......I too think the world needs a helping hand to accept us, and if we are all intent on merging into society and being 'the same' as everyone else, then we are denying ourselves to ourselves and the world, and thus not educating the masses that yes we do exist and some of us do not see ourselves as either male nor female for those inbetweenies out there....how can the world accept us if they do not see us

[Ðarissa]

It's too bad we seem to think we have to completely dress in order to go out and have this desire to pass. I would be so happy to be in drab at home and suddenly just take off the jeans, throw on a skirt and cute shoes and stockings and go to the store but I don't do this and wish I wasn't such a big chicken. I keep thinking I have to completely dress enfemme in order to go outside but I really wish that I didn't feel that way. This world is pretty messed up and I get frustrated thinking about how lame it all is.

[Marla S]

Wouldn't being accepted as something other than a man or woman be a higher form of acceptance? I think you're saying there can only be 'either/or', a very binary view of gender?
What should that 'something other' be ?

Of course it is binary, but do you see any other view than the binary one even here on this forum ? There are not even words for this "something else".

-We have male and female user names ... binary ... only a few have non-gender or gender neutral names.
-We have 'male to female' and 'female to male' ... binary
-We have those with a fem self and a male self ... binary
-We have those that that ask "am I a girl when I underdress in drab or I am a boy then?"
-We have GMs that go full time as woman and vice versa ... binary
-We have those that are happy when they are called Ma'am and those that are happy when they are called Sir ... binary
etc.etc.etc.

It is binary and it will stay that way. If not even we are able to think different than binary, how should society be ?

The only thing that eventually can change (and very slowly does) is the definition and the expected look of men and women.




With respect - I think there is something wrong with it, or we wouldn't be so guilt-ridden and prone to anger, depression, suicide? Why does it have to be the way it is, can't we try to change it?
:strugglin
Because we think binary, and if this binarity is present in a single individual it causes problems until we find a workaround. TG community eventually could change something (actually it contributes a bit to changes), but as long as "man" or "woman" are more important than the authenticity of the individual as highest value which needs acceptance, it will stay that way. What is a GM that looks like a woman ? What's a GG that looks like a man ? The essence is they are individuals and should be accepted a such.

[Nicki B]

It is binary and it will stay that way. If not even we are able to think different than binary, how should society be ?

The only thing that eventually can change (and very slowly does) is the definition and the expected look of men and women.

I disagree... Nature is not binary. Other cultures are not binary?

[Marla S]

I disagree... Nature is not binary. Other cultures are not binary?
Like what ?

Bacteria, algae and viruses come to mind as non binary. What else ?
There are some lizards which have no male gender ... all girls

[Nicki B]

There are over ninety different intersex conditions identified in humans.

Native North American cultures, amongst others, recognise more than masculine and feminine?

Nature always does diversity - that's how we get evolution?

[jaina]

And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...:Angry3:

Or am I really just in a minority of one? :strugglin

I'm sure you are in the minority. Not many are willing to notice or comment on the strong " CD is ok if hidden" undertones, not only in the community but in the support network also. these are hard concepts for many to swallow and often bring hate and threats on those that bring them up.

[Steveo]

i'd like to add my tuppence worth. we should all have the ultimate aim of showing the public, that we are not that different to them, i myself would not go out in either dress or skirt , but the desire to do that is there, if surcomestances were right, and as has already been said nothing will change if we are invisable to those public, i wear womens jeans, womens tops, womens knickers, and dont get a lot of hassle from anyone, that has'nt always been the case so we are having an impact on the public, but in an acceptable way, a case off little and often does the trick.

[Marla S]

Nicki, you started a great thread, and it is not my intention to disrespect your view, to a good part I share it.

But I like to take the chance to try to pinpoint a few aspects that a lot people talk about, but hardly anyone is able to describe or explain.
Hence my posts sound a bit polemically and are indeed more of theoretical nature. No personal offense intended.

There are over ninety different intersex conditions identified in humans.
Yes, what are the names of this other over 90 genders ?
What's the name of their gender roles ?
In which department do they buy their clothes ?


Native North American cultures, amongst others, recognise more than masculine and feminine?
If there is more it should be possible to name it. What means "more "? What means "something else" ?
Not that I want object in principle, but what's the name of a third or forth quality ? I am really eager to learn about it !!!
Why doesn't anybody name it, describe it, if it is there?
And if the one is very good, he/she (it ?) is able to describe it without the binary terms man, woman, feminine, and masculine.


Nature always does diversity - that's how we get evolution?
Absolutely correct. There are tall men, small men, tall women, small women, masculine man, feminine man, masculine women and feminine women, fertile and non-fertile men and women. Men that are born in female bodies, woman that are born in male bodies etc.
Nature creates diversity and it created the binary sex system.
But actually nature isn't our problem, problem is that culture and society try to restrict diversity ... because it's "unnatural":rolleyes:.

More back to topic

I'm sure you are in the minority. Not many are willing to notice or comment on the strong " CD is ok if hidden" undertones, not only in the community but in the support network also. these are hard concepts for many to swallow and often bring hate and threats on those that bring them up.
Good point.

[Sugar01]

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to pass. I mean, after all the work we go through; the shaving, the make-up, the clothes, the hair, etc, it's nice to imagine that someone may mistake us for a lady.

[azalea]

People that want to dress up / act like that which is most commonly associated with the opposite sex, are, through those actions, acknowledging that gender matters to them, whether they'll admit to it or not.

As for why we would want to pass? Well, I feel like I'm a girl and I'd rather people not think of me as a man who is a sick weirdo for wanting to wear a dress. Would a GG want to be thought of as a man who wears a dress? Probably not, right? Well, what's the difference?

[Nicki B]

No personal offense intended.

None taken. I much respect the previous posts of yours that I've read....


Yes, what are the names of this other over 90 genders ?
Not that I want object in principle, but what's the name of a third or forth quality ? I am really eager to learn about it !!!
Why doesn't anybody name it, describe it, if it is there?

I've seen this argument from people before - I don't believe that it's one 'it', although other cultures may call it such as 'Kathoey', 'Hijra' or 'Berdache'? There were the equivalent to Hijra in the Roman Empire, who served as priestesses?

To my eyes I see a range, call it a spectrum or rainbow as you will? :)

How it fits with intersex conditions, I don't know - but I suspect there may be more crossover than people are aware of, because, provided the external genitalia are recognisable, nobody looks for intersex conditions?


Absolutely correct. There are tall men, small men, tall women, small women, masculine man, feminine man, masculine women and feminine women, fertile and non-fertile men and women. Men that are born in female bodies, woman that are born in male bodies etc.
Nature creates diversity and it created the binary sex system.

And XY (AIS (http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais/21_OVERVIEW.HTM)) women, and XXY, XYY, XXXY, etc, etc, people? What are they, men, or women??


But actually nature isn't our problem, problem is that culture and society try to restrict diversity ... because it's "unnatural":rolleyes:.

Western, Abrahamic culture and society? That's where the 'binary only' rigidity came in... :)

[Sheri 4242]

Are you complaining about the hierarchy? Or lamenting that you don't pass? Very true that if no one notices you, then YOU in particular are not doing much to advance the "cause" so to speak. But some of us (well, ME for instance), don't want to be noticed. I just want to be left alone to live my life the way I want to.

Some want to take up a sword and shield and advance a cause, some don't. If "Sister X" wants to be out advancing a cause, that's fine. If "Sister Y" doesn't want to do that, then that should likewise be fine. If anyone is saying that to belong here -- to participate and find others who share "something" in common with you -- that you must take a position and advance somebody's notion of a cause, then that could well be the death knoll to what this website seems to be about!!!


Undoubtedly, our vanity quotient is above-average.

Some of the crossdressers here have above-average vanity -- indeed, some have exceedingly high levels of vanity. Conversely, many who come here have low, if not exceedingly so, vanity. What bothers me is the undertone subtending this thread that this site is about advancing causes!!! For those who want to advance a cause, go for it!!! BUT, don't put down those who do not have some agenda to advance. There are those here who, just by being here, it is a major step in their lives!!! The last thing they need is to be cornered and told you have to advance "a cause" to stay and/or participate!!!

The problem I see coming out of this discssion is the notion that belonging here is about taking up a banner and going headlong into a fight!!! I imagine that many who participate here would have headed to the hills had such been thrust upon them when they joined. Some are estatic to learn that there are others just like them out in the work-a-day world. Some are happy and comforted that they can communicate with others who grew up with the same feelings. Some are glad to know there are those out there who have taken like steps just coming to self-acceptance. Many of these sisters don't want to advance a cause -- many just want to feel better about themselves. Many just want to get a spouse to some level of acceptance. The list can go on and on! This site, in the main, should be about acceptance, education, and support for crossdressers, their families, friends, and others who are significant!!! Nobody who comes here should be made to feel that they must advance some cause to be a fully-involved participant!!!

[Lisa Golightly]

I've seen all these arguments before... Rather than being constructive the passing/hierachy arguments lead to mere squabbling and deeper division within forums.

[Nicki B]

The problem I see coming out of this discssion is the notion that belonging here is about taking up a banner and going headlong into a fight!!!

I said
What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them..

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

I said nothing about belonging, or not belonging, here?

Please - I'm NOT LOOKING FOR A FIGHT, with anybody. (Well, it's not really very ladee-like, is it? :winking: )

I think those people who are willing to be seen as not passing help all of us - but I also want to refute the notion that people are somehow lessened, by not passing? I want people to like what they are? Because how can we expect others to respect us, if we are ashamed of what we are?

But azalea, trust me, I sooo know how you feel... :)


Lisa - but do you feel the number of 'did I pass'/'look how well I passed' threads here doesn't make some people feel lessened? :strugglin

[Lisa Golightly]

Lisa - but do you feel the number of 'did I pass'/'look how well I passed' threads here doesn't make some people feel lessened? :strugglin

No... But what will make me feel like logging off is another... 'Oh God not another war on the forum thread'. Seen them elsewhere and it led me to log off for good.

[nikki_t]

Every one of you bring up very valid arguments... but that's because we, as humans, are all different and have different dispositions and reasons for doing the things we do. If we were all the same and agreed all the time then how much fun would that be?


I've seen all these arguments before... Rather than being constructive the passing/hierachy arguments lead to mere squabbling and deeper division within forums.
:yt:
Just for a refreshing change I'm not getting into the argument this time. Takes too much time and energy. We can all agree sometimes... and we can all disagree sometimes... but I love you all anyways. :thumbsup:

[Marla S]

None taken. I much respect the previous posts of yours that I've read....:hugs::love:


I've seen this argument from people before - I don't believe that it's one 'it', although other cultures may call it such as 'Kathoey', 'Hijra' or 'Berdache'? There were the equivalent to Hijra in the Roman Empire, who served as priestesses?

To my eyes I see a range, call it a spectrum or rainbow as you will? :)

How it fits with intersex conditions, I don't know - but I suspect there may be more crossover than people are aware of, because, provided the external genitalia are recognisable, nobody looks for intersex conditions?

And XX women, and XXY, XYY, XXXY, etc, etc, people? What are they, men, or women??

Western, Abrahamic culture and society? That's where the 'binary only' rigidity came in... :)
I could write a book: "Arbitrary usage of the terms sex and gender, and the romantic view on ancient cultures".:D

Just one short chapter :heehee:

Berdache romantics

The underlying question is

Do we want to stand out ?

If no: Passing is a way, the closet is a way, clubbing is a way, Tri-ess meetings are a way.
Is the bedache status a way ? No, those people stand/stood out in their culture. They didn't get their status by choice. What do we know if they felt comfortable with this status, maybe it also meant a lot of doubts and isolation for the persons concerned.

If, yes: The berdache status is an option, but why looking for foreign/ancient cultures when we already have this. Drag shows, travesty shows, women's impersonators. They get applause, are respected and even can do it for a living sometimes.But the respect usually only lasts as long as the show lasts.
I guess it isn't/wasn't much different in the past or other cultures. Once the ritual (show) was over the just admired berdache becomes a somewhat curios something again, with all the problems this causes.

But I guess I miss the point of the thread and will stop here.

[MJ]

No... But what will make me feel like logging off is another... 'Oh God not another war on the forum thread'. Seen them elsewhere and it led me to log off for good.

just a note please don't take this thread to heart just have an interesting post for us to read ... i am sorry but i don't have the intellectual capacity to respond .. way too deep for me remember respect
hugs

[charllote34]

I really dont think we should put to much pessure on ourselves if we can pass or not . Its like the cross dressers " does my bum look big in this " hang up .Its not how we look but how happy we are as the people we are x

[Marla S]

A step back, 'cause I think I have wasted this thread with some sidelines.

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them.. :werd:

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?
In reality, I think this is a baseless fear.
First off, only a minority will really pass (maybe some more that think they would), at the point where education could take effect this minority even gets smaller, because it means to interact, speak with people. So actually there are only very, very few that will be unrecognized and could cause a non-change.
Others that don't change anything are those in the closet. Are they to blame ? I don't think so, bu they are the majority.


And an obsession with passing better than others seems to fit with that 'tranny hierarchy' that so many seem to try and fit into - a TS trumps a TG, who trumps a TV/CD... So unnecessary, and just as destructive as genetic women's obsession with body image; both to us as individuals, and to our whole community...:Angry3:
This is actually something that bothers me too, but shows IMO that even TG folks are just ordinary people ... define yourself by segregatind from others ... higher yourself by lowering others ... haunt for unrealistic and unhealthy ideals .... that's how it works seemingly.
But if you have a closer look, beyond the surface, it's what people have to say what makes them interesting ... the pic in the gallery is nice to look at but if the person is an idiot what is it worth ?
Some only pop up to show pics once in a while ... nice, and nice pics ... but who are they ?
On the other side, there are great picks that don't show the ideal of beauty, but they are real, authentic and show a good person.
I learn more from those pics and persons, but I also like pics that show the "ideal" (I often even get envious; close to depressions;)).

[gennee]

I pass most of the time. I just like to be out and try to look my best. I'm a casual dresser. I haven't disguised my voice yet but maybe I will. :D

Gennee

[Julogden]

Like what ?

Bacteria, algae and viruses come to mind as non binary. What else ?
There are some lizards which have no male gender ... all girls
Some mushrooms have lots of genders, of sort. Click here (http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/feb2000.html) to read about one that has over 28,000 "genders".

Carol

[Marla S]

Some mushrooms have lots of genders, of sort. Click here (http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/feb2000.html) to read about one that has over 28,000 "genders".

Carol

Now you got me ..... almost :heehee:
Very interesting to read ... I didn't know that.

BUT they talk about sexes not genders and define the sexes by the ability to reproduce.
That certainly doesn't apply to us, because it would mean any non-fertile GG isn't a woman, not to mention that a TS can't become (or be) a member of the opposite sex, but is sexless (genderless ?)... I don't think we want to follow this mushroom definition of "genders" (sexes actually).

Hence the mushrooms are nice, but don't contribute.

[Ruth]

When I dress in private, my aim is to look "nice" and my standard image of that nice look is a good-looking, well-groomed woman (sorry, I know this is all very subjective). I don't need to pass because there is nobody to convince.
However, when I go out in public, I have the same standard image I try to live up to, and I also want to pass because it avoids confrontations with people who feel threatened by the sight of a man in a dress. If there were not this danger I would not be interested in passing, though I would probably still be trying for the same look.

[Sally24]

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing.


This was not intended as an attack on those who do pass - more to the attitudes that make us want to?.

You have to remember we are all individuals. Sure, we want more acceptance for the group as a whole but we all have our own desires for ourselves. Many here either feel female, or at least want to be treated as female. When I'm not doing my T-girl thing at clubs I want to be treated like an american woman going about her everyday things. I don't want to be treated as a man who feels and dresses like a woman. That may be a fine point but it matters to me. Now I go out both as a GG and as a T-girl so I guess I get the best of both of those worlds on a good day! I do my part in trying to advance the acceptance of people who are gender variant, but some days I just want to be a girl and relax, ok?

[Sugar01]

Very well said, Sally. :happy:

[JaytoJillian]

hmmm, I really don't care as long as I like what I see in the mirror, and I often do, hence my obsession with my femme side. However, with my height, the best I could possibly hope for with regard to "passing" would be people having to do a double take or being left with some degree of uncertainty. As a friend once told me, "If your skirt is short enough, no one really cares what you were born with between your legs!"

[Beth-GDB]

What's really so good about passing? If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them.. :werd:

In short, nothing will change, if we aim to pass all the time?

We don't all behave the way we do for the same reasons. The only "cause" I am personally working for is my own self-satisfaction. If that coincides with some larger issue then fine, but that larger issue is not my motivation for doing what I do, my self-satisfaction is my motivation.

In my specific case, while my personal self-image (how I see myself in my own mind) is very much masculine, there are times when I wish to be feminine, or at least a version of "feminine" that pleases me. I have no interest in looking very obvious as a man in a skirt/dress. When I wish to be feminine I also want other people to see me as feminine, as someone who can go about "her" (in the eyes of the people around me) business without causing a fuss.

I've never concerned myself with whether I can pass more easily than anyone else. There will always be people who appear more convincing than I ever expect to. This isn't a competition and there are no medals to be won. The only benchmark I have for passing is how well or how badly I meet my own self-expectation of "feminine" and how well or how badly I fulfil my own sense of self-satisfaction.

[docrobbysherry]

We don't all behave the way we do for the same reasons. The only "cause" I am personally working for is my own self-satisfaction. If that coincides with some larger issue then fine, but that larger issue is not my motivation for doing what I do, my self-satisfaction is my motivation.
The only benchmark I have for passing is how well or how badly I meet my own self-expectation of "feminine" and how well or how badly I fulfil my own sense of self-satisfaction.

This is one of the most interesting threads. So many comprehensive points have been made. However, I think Beth has gone to heart of the matter.

Look in the mirror. What each of us sees is our motivation! The reasons WHY we see what we see, r less important than our vision. I see an erotic beauty. And I want others to see my vision, or not see me dressed. So, I produce pics conveying what I feel is my vision. If I take off my special faces, I see an old man in a dress. So, I am unable to take MY vision outside, because I don't like the "old man in a dress" look.

Those of u who see a confident, feminine person in the mirror, may be prepared to go out. You want the world to accept this person. Come what may. Because that is what u need to do to satify yourselves.

Some see a man in a dress, like that look, and feel the world should accept that look. In your face world, take me as I am, or F u!

Each of us sees a slightly different person in the mirror. So each of us must do our CDing in our own way to satisfy ourselves. OK, that's my 2cents.
RS

www.myspace.com/robertsherry

[Billijo49504]

I understand where you are coming from, BUT, there's always on, in my case, if I'm going to do something, I try to do it to the best of my ability. In other words, if I'm CD'ing, I try to do the best I can. Because if I'm not going to try to do my best, why even do it. So if I'm trying to look like a GG, I do my best...BJ

[Kate Simmons]

I understand where you are coming from, BUT, there's always on, in my case, if I'm going to do something, I try to do it to the best of my ability. In other words, if I'm CD'ing, I try to do the best I can. Because if I'm not going to try to do my best, why even do it. So if I'm trying to look like a GG, I do my best...BJI think you've got it BJ and that is kinda my take on it as well. I may have mislead folks a little in my previous posts. When I go out , I try to look my best because as you say, anything worth doing is worth doing well. I do not go out and shout:"Hey, I'm a guy" but will not deny it either. I just feel that honest is as honest does and when folks get to know me, they know who I am. I'm not going to put on a pretense and deny my real sex. The fact that they see I'm enjoying being myself makes all the difference and it doesn't change my basic personality.:happy:

[Nicki B]

I also want to pass because it avoids confrontations with people who feel threatened by the sight of a man in a dress. If there were not this danger I would not be interested in passing, though I would probably still be trying for the same look.

That's partly where I'm going..


I don't want to be treated as a man who feels and dresses like a woman.


Some see a man in a dress, like that look, and feel the world should accept that look. In your face world, take me as I am, or F u!

This again assumes a binary, that you are either a woman, or a 'bloke in a frock' - I thought I'd suggested we can be something else - I'd simply call it transgender?


I understand where you are coming from, BUT, there's always on, in my case, if I'm going to do something, I try to do it to the best of my ability. In other words, if I'm CD'ing, I try to do the best I can. Because if I'm not going to try to do my best, why even do it. So if I'm trying to look like a GG, I do my best...BJ

Me too? I'm not suggesting anything else - just don't obsess about it, okay?

It's perfectly acceptable not to pass, in fact throw the whole worry about passing out of the window and, IME you are far more likely to pass - but just forget it??


I really dont think we should put to much pessure on ourselves if we can pass or not . Its like the cross dressers " does my bum look big in this " hang up .Its not how we look but how happy we are as the people we are x

I think Charllote sees where I'm coming from?

[Melissa Davis]

If you pass, that means the world doesn't notice us as existing, doesn't realise we're little different to everyone else, that we can live in the world without threatening them..
At the risk of sounding selfish... I crossdress for me. Not anyone else. I try my best to pass because I enjoy it.

Now I'm just gonna sound rude so here goes... I'm not going to purposefully do a terrible job at putting myself together just so I can try and educate the traffic that might stop to stare at me. That's just not what I am about.

HOWEVER... I do plan on attending any outreach / educate the community type events with my support group. That is more up my alley.

[Nicki B]

... I'm not going to purposefully do a terrible job at putting myself together just so I can try and educate the traffic that might stop to stare at me.

That's absolutely NOT what I was suggesting...:sad:

:wall:


just don't obsess about it, okay?

[Sally24]

Some of us take the best and worst of the GG world. We diet down a little lighter than we should be and obsess about our looks and the passage of time. It's authentic but something we should try to be careful not to take to extremes.

[MsJanessa]

Ive said it before---My goal is to look as attractive as I can---very few of us actually can pass all the time 24/7---and still fewer of us pass as beautiful glamorous women---one of the most "passable" TGs I know doesn't not make a pretty women---she looks like a significantly overweight 60 year old maiden aunt---but she always passes---unless she is dressed like a ****, no body ever gives her a second glance and when she does dress like a **** she looks comical---like an old lady going to a custome party. For me I would rather be looked at as beautiful desirable T-Girl than a plain jane GG

[Patti Girl]

---and still fewer of us pass as beautiful glamorous women---

But then very few GGs are "beautiful, glamorous women". If one is trying to "pass", probably the best approach (IMO) is to look like the typical woman, not like some glamorous Hollywood model that attracts attention.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the glamorous approach, just that if one is trying to "pass" most GGs don't fit or dress "glamorous".

I do certainly understand trying to look our best but I suspect that's more important to us than it is to the typical 30-40-50 yo GG. As you said, the best passer you know looks like a frumpy oldster :)

Patti

[Patti Girl]

Look in the mirror. What each of us sees is our motivation! The reasons WHY we see what we see, r less important than our vision. I see an erotic beauty. And I want others to see my vision, or not see me dressed. So, I produce pics conveying what I feel is my vision. If I take off my special faces, I see an old man in a dress. So, I am unable to take MY vision outside, because I don't like the "old man in a dress" look.

Those of u who see a confident, feminine person in the mirror, may be prepared to go out. You want the world to accept this person. Come what may. Because that is what u need to do to satify yourselves.

Some see a man in a dress, like that look, and feel the world should accept that look. In your face world, take me as I am, or F u!

Each of us sees a slightly different person in the mirror. So each of us must do our CDing in our own way to satisfy ourselves. OK, that's my 2cents.
RS

Good message, I agree very much! We are all here for whatever meets OUR needs.

Patti

[Nicki B]

If one is trying to "pass", probably the best approach (IMO) is to look like the typical woman, not like some glamorous Hollywood model that attracts attention.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the glamorous approach, just that if one is trying to "pass" most GGs don't fit or dress "glamorous".

Patti, I'm not sure if you've understood where I'm coming from - I was questioning this competitive 'need' to pass, and even to pass better than others, rather than relaxing and just being comfortable as yourself? :)

[Karren H]

So what your saying is next time I go out I should do a crap job of my makeup and dress poorly so everyone and their mother knows I'm a guy in a dress?? There's a plan!! Hahaha. Well I like to look good no matter how I'm dressed and if that passes then fine.. If not that's fine too.. I could give a rat's ass what people think..

Karren

[Nicki B]

So what your saying is next time I go out I should do a crap job of my makeup and dress poorly so everyone and their mother knows I'm a guy in a dress?? There's a plan!!

:wall:
No (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1063738&postcount=53)....



Well I like to look good no matter how I'm dressed and if that passes then fine.. If not that's fine too.. I could give a rat's ass what people think..

That's pretty much what I AM advocating? You can look fantastic - act and feel very feminine, but still people know you weren't born a genetic woman? I'm saying, so what - it doesn't matter, in fact, it helps?

[jaina]

They aren't getting the idea of the core issue Nicki B.

They are viewing it with a pass or fail mentallity instead of a values issue.
They see those that pass are good, those that don't pass have done a bad job at passing, when its actually a much larger issue then that.

[Patti Girl]

So what your saying is next time I go out I should do a crap job of my makeup and dress poorly so everyone and their mother knows I'm a guy in a dress?? There's a plan!! Hahaha. Well I like to look good no matter how I'm dressed and if that passes then fine.. If not that's fine too.. I could give a rat's ass what people think..

Karren

No. What I'm saying is that if one dresses extremely feminine, you are likely to attract more attention and examination than if you dress more like the typical GG. The typical woman at Walmart isn't a stunning beauty and doesn't get a second look. Might be a CD who is easily passing because they aren't noticed.

OTOH, the good looking sweet young thing in a mini and tight top is going to get noticed and examined closely.

Each person should pursue their own goals. Some want to look "model quality" and be noticed, others prefer to pass in the background. For many, I think passing is easier if they blend in with the background.

Patti

[Darla in Pa.]

That is what is so great about this place. Opinions, feelings, reality are discussed with no repercussions.

I know I have read post and have thought that is Bull****!

And yet it is MY choice to reply or not, and if I do nothing it is still valuable.


It is all about learning, perhaps I'm reading more into it than it really is. But were all here because of a common interest.

So may the pink fog be with all of us.



Darla

[charllote34]

Its wrong to have a competion amongst ourselves about who passes the best etc... There are enough things to worry about than this !:hugs:

[Sam-antha]

as Charllote says :
Its wrong to have a competion amongst ourselves about who passes the best etc... There are enough things to worry about than this !:hugs:

Can you pass ?

~Samm

[Sugar01]

It seems this thread evolved from some recent members who had overwhelming response to whether they passed or not, and it seems to have ruffled the feathers of some other members.

But that's life. If a GG isn't pretty, we say she has a good personality. If a CD doesn't pass, we say look at the inner person instead. It's all the same.

I don't feel threatened by CD's that are 'prettier' than me.

[charllote34]

that would depend on the competion my dear samantha! ha ha !!!

[JoAnnDallas]

To me, if I have done a good enough job of my dress and makeup that people leave me alone, then I am satisfied. To me there is a balance that allows one to go out and 90% of the time you will not be noticed, Pass, or whatever. Too little and you end up looking like a man-in-a-dress and too much you end up getting noticed and people start staring at you and then it clicks in their head and you end up with again the man-in-a-dress.
I strive for that balance. I don't always make it, but so far on those occasions where I have been noticed, I'll get the wide eye look and/or a smile and that is it.

[Kelsy]

I could give a rat's ass what people think..

Karren

My Hero um Heroine!!:D

Kelsy

[marie354]

It took my a while to read most of this, but I gotta agree with Karren...


...Well I like to look good no matter how I'm dressed and if that passes then fine.. If not that's fine too..
Karren

I try to do the best I can and if I don't pass to some, then so what. As long as no-one acts stupid... That can make us all look bad.


To me, if I have done a good enough job of my dress and makeup that people leave me alone, then I am satisfied. To me there is a balance that allows one to go out and 90% of the time you will not be noticed, Pass, or whatever. Too little and you end up looking like a man-in-a-dress and too much you end up getting noticed and people start staring at you and then it clicks in their head and you end up with again the man-in-a-dress.
I strive for that balance. I don't always make it, but so far on those occasions where I have been noticed, I'll get the wide eye look and/or a smile and that is it.

If someone asks me if I'm a guy, I just tell them... Oh yea, I used to be, and leave it at that.
Someone asked me the other day why I dressed as a woman and I said... 'Because I can' TeeHeeHee.

Anyway... If I pass, then OK. If not, then that's OK too. No-one I've met so far seems to mind either way.
I'm still going to dress and interact with the world everyday anyway. It's just the way I am now.
Most people like me for me, not just how I'm dressed.

[Suzy Harrison]

So what your saying is next time I go out I should do a crap job of my makeup and dress poorly so everyone and their mother knows I'm a guy in a dress?? There's a plan!!

Karren

Exactly.!

When I dress either in private or if I intend to go out in public, then I want to look 100% female - and not half man / half woman.

I'm sorry, but for me it's not about promoting the idea that guys dress as girls, but it's about me being female. Maybe I'm a transexual and not a crossdresser after all, because I'd rather look and act like a female than run around looking like a guy with a dress on.

We are all going to pass/not pass to a greater or lesser degree. It's not a race or league table of who is the best. It's about doing the best with what we have. Isn't that the whole reason for this site - support and advice?

I look better these days only thanks to the support and advice of others on this site who have more experience. Just because they look better than me doesn't mean to say that I feel inferior - we just do the best we can with what we were born with - that's life I'm afraid.

[Marla S]

Exactly.!

When I dress either in private or if I intend to go out in public, then I want to look 100% female - and not half man / half woman.

I'm sorry, but for me it's not about promoting the idea that guys dress as girls, but it's about me being female. Maybe I'm a transexual and not a crossdresser after all, because I'd rather look and act like a female than run around looking like a guy with a dress on.
It's a valid argument, but makes seeking for acceptance pointless, because there is no need for it.

[Deborah Jane]

[QUOTE=Suzy Harrison;1064458]Exactly.!

When I dress either in private or if I intend to go out in public, then I want to look 100% female - and not half man / half woman.

I'm sorry, but for me it's not about promoting the idea that guys dress as girls, but it's about me being female. Maybe I'm a transexual and not a crossdresser after all, because I'd rather look and act like a female than run around looking like a guy with a dress on.

We are all going to pass/not pass to a greater or lesser degree. It's not a race or league table of who is the best. It's about doing the best with what we have. Isn't that the whole reason for this site - support and advice?


I,m afraid i,ve got to agree with Suzy on this..I feel the same!

[jaina]

It's a valid argument, but makes seeking for acceptance pointless, because there is no need for it.

Its less work to create a good illusion and hope it never fails then it is to stand up for acceptance and good treatment when the time comes the illuision will fail.

Many people pass, but in their day to day life have to deal with peoples acceptance. For many "when I go out" is everyday, not once in a while as a well planned event. It doesn't matter how much work you put into "doing it right", customs, police, planes, trains, courthouses and 100 other lisencing agencies that you have to deal with willl read you. The fight for acceptance is still important.

[tvbeckytv]

:wall:
No (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1063738&postcount=53)....




That's pretty much what I AM advocating? You can look fantastic - act and feel very feminine, but still people know you weren't born a genetic woman? I'm saying, so what - it doesn't matter, in fact, it helps?


nicki, third gender rocks. I identify with every thing you have said in this thread. As you have pointed out this crosses many cultures and has been recognised throughtout recorded history. Down with binary boo hisss.

[Karren H]

No. What I'm saying is that if one dresses extremely feminine, you are likely to attract more attention and examination than if you dress more like the typical GG. The typical woman at Walmart isn't a stunning beauty and doesn't get a second look. Might be a CD who is easily passing because they aren't noticed.

OTOH, the good looking sweet young thing in a mini and tight top is going to get noticed and examined closely.

Each person should pursue their own goals. Some want to look "model quality" and be noticed, others prefer to pass in the background. For many, I think passing is easier if they blend in with the background.

Patti

WRONG.... Hey, If I'm dressing up and going out it's always in a skirt or dress and heels or boots.... The mall, stores, local casino.... I may be the only person in a skirt or dress in the place but it sure doesn't matter to me at all.... You can dress feminine and not over the top and still fit into the scenery IMHO..... And how you dress isn't what gets you noticed... is your attitude.... That says you belong there dressed as you are.... Do that and no one will question you presentation even if they don't think you a genetic woman... 95% attitude.... 5% clothing.....

Karren

[Marla S]

Its less work to create a good illusion and hope it never fails then it is to stand up for acceptance and good treatment when the time comes the illuision will fail.

Many people pass, but in their day to day life have to deal with peoples acceptance. For many "when I go out" is everyday, not once in a while as a well planned event. It doesn't matter how much work you put into "doing it right", customs, police, planes, trains, courthouses and 100 other lisencing agencies that you have to deal with willl read you. The fight for acceptance is still important.
Right and agreed.

But this passing thing is more of theoretical nature anyway. There is a right not to stand out, and there is a right to pass. Passing or not and the personal motivation to do so isn't the point of this thread anyway IMO.

I think it's more about "I want to pass, because I don't want to look like a guy in dress"

What's wrong with looking like a guy in dress ?

That's what we are finally and once the illusion fails everybody will be aware of it. Does a bit more or less guy in dress, realized by more or less people justify a (hypothetical) tranny hierarchy and competition?

[Nicki B]

:wall:

So many people still don't get what I'm saying, but are replying to others saying the exact opposite of what I suggested... :sad:


I'm sorry to pick on you, specifically, Marla - there are so many similar posts previously, too many to reply to all..


I think it's more about "I want to pass, because I don't want to look like a guy in dress"

Being called a 'guy in a dress' is extremely hurtful to many - I wouldn't ever do that, and I'm certainly NOT advocating that.


..a (hypothetical) tranny hierarchy and competition?

Look at the number of threads about 'how well do I pass', 'where on a scale do I pass' and tell me it's hypothetical, and that it doesn't make some people feel inferior?

The thread was simply about 'don't get so hung up on passing - it does none of us any favours'.

Be proud and comfortable with what you are - and if you call yourself a 'bloke in a frock', all well and good - but call me one and don't expect me to be polite back..:heehee:

[MsJanessa]

:wall:

So many people still don't get what I'm saying, but are replying to others saying the exact opposite of what I suggested... :sad:


I'm sorry to pick on you, specifically, Marla - there are so many similar posts previously, too many to reply to all..



Being called a 'guy in a dress' is extremely hurtful to many - I wouldn't ever do that, and I'm certainly NOT advocating that.



Look at the number of threads about 'how well do I pass', 'where on a scale do I pass' and tell me it's hypothetical, and that it doesn't make some people feel inferior?

The thread was simply about 'don't get so hung up on passing - it does none of us any favours'.

Be proud and comfortable with what you are - and if you call yourself a 'bloke in a frock', all well and good - but call me one and don't expect me to be polite back..:heehee:

ditto darling

[Kris]

Native North American cultures, amongst others, recognise more than masculine and feminine?



I can't speak for all native tribes but the tribes that are in my area, and many have migrated here, there is male and female and double spirited.

Now double spirited doesn't necessarily mean gay, (but most think of it that way - the people who don't know traditional ways) but it means to have the ability to look at the world through both sexes eyes. To be able to admire the beauty in both sexes where most others cant. Which is why they are so valued and honored in my world. There are few, which makes them special.

The other thing that this discussion brings to mind is drug addiction. Many addicts (using) will say things along the lines of, " I don't shoot drugs, so I'm not that bad." Or, with meth I hear people say, "Shooting is the clean way to do it, it doesn't rot your sinuses." Can you hear a louder argument of pure justification? I can't. How can you cleanly inject your body with arsenic? If you get these substances into your blood stream, no matter what the method, what makes you better than others that are doing the same?

I haven't read all the posts yet, but in a perfect world, there shouldn't be a "better than/less than" for anyone. There needs to be more gender neutrality. I think it's comical on some days when I come to this site and read some of the things you ladies write. Obsession with passing, YET acting as if to be a "real lady" you have to get dressed to the nines to get eggs at the store. I am a GG, I pass every freaking day, I NEVER do that! So you are making yourself stand out, in essence.

Once long ago I wore jeans and t-shirts everyday. I never thought twice about it. Until one day a group of lesbian women told me that I was gay and in denial. I was shocked, I couldn't figure out why so I asked them why they thought so, and they said because of the clothes that I wore. I walked around for days wondering what was different from me and other people... my sister is a mailman... she dresses in boys pants and boys shoes everyday and no one questions her, why was I so different? I didn't have a job dictating that I dressed that way? I can tell you that my oldest sons father saw me as beautiful no matter what I wore... and there was no question in that. He was not gay.

I don't know what the answer is to all of this is, but self acceptance comes to mind. We, as a society, need to be accepting of ourselves first. That means ALL of us. Not drawing the line between gay and straight, Transsexual and transvestite, and not embrace everyone as something different but more of the same.

However, does that not add insult to injury? I want to be viewed as different, or then I do not feel unique? I most certainly don't want to be viewed as a European American, I want to be honored as Native American.. why? Because I hold high the pride of my people. Now...... does that make me prejudice, yes, it does. Do I think that I am better than them? No, but I do get sad when I see a young native person with a white mate....because then yet again their is a dilution of our blood as a whole. Does that make me prejudice? Kinda, because who do you think I want my children to choose as mates? I can't tell you how sad I was to see my step children ALL choose white mates - however, we live in Oregon... there aren't a lot of natives here. Most of whom they are related to in one way or another.

When I was a kid, Native Americans had no pride. It was shameful to be seen as a native person. My parents were the opposite of me. When I came home and said, I have a boyfriend.. the first things out of my parents mouths were, "What color are his eyes?" They knew a blatant question about race was prohibited. They were delighted when my oldest sister married a German man, my other sister married a man from Finland, and I was with Tim - Adam's father (I never married him) My mother about DIED when I did get married, and my husband was native as well...

We want to be accepted for who we are - no matter who we are, but yet NATURE gives us the "only the strong survive" instinct. There will always be a better or worse. There will always be someone who stands on a soapbox and screams they are better... That is nature. Do I agree with it? No, I think we are all equals... but then again, I have to admit I am the first person to laugh at something stupid someone did.. when I much of the time delight in my own stupid mistakes.

Anyway, my point is .. this is a which came first, the chicken or the egg debate.. there really is no end. We all, do the best we can each day to take care of our needs -without hurting others and to try to find joy.. but what else is there in life?

Incidentally, as I was getting my family ready to go trick or treating, I put on my jeans, and sweatshirt, and socks and tennis shoes .. and laughed. I haven't dressed like this in a LONG time... I have been dressing up far more regularly since joining this site. Isn't that an odd observation? Just food for thought..

:hugs: and :love:'s and peace to us all!!

Kris

[Kris]

I guess it isn't/wasn't much different in the past or other cultures. Once the ritual (show) was over the just admired berdache becomes a somewhat curios something again, with all the problems this causes.



No, not in native cultures.. all to my knowledge the prejudice started when Anglo people started changing our culture. Thankfully many of us are trying to bring it back with strength.

[Marla S]

@Nicki, I really don't seem to get what the point of all this is ... my fault.


Being called a 'guy in a dress' is extremely hurtful to many - I wouldn't ever do that, and I'm certainly NOT advocating that.
Yes seems to be hurtful (sorry if I did hurt someone), but the alternative is passing*, isn't it?
So I wonder why you wonder that people are so hung up with passing.

(*My def of passing is: not being identified as GM. Maybe your's a different one and there is the problem)

Not being seen as "guy in dress" and not passing just don't go together.

It's a question of the perspective though. I am coming from the "regular" peoples perspective. If you don't pass you'll get "Oh it's a man dressed like a woman" sooner or later. The later the better you pass, everything else is an illusion.


To be proud of what you are and the natural beauty you have is obviously not enough, hence a passing hierarchy superposing the usual beauty hierarchy is inevitable.
+ there are no beauty standards for the "guy in dress" look, hence it will automatically be compared to the "look like a woman" look, the more that it is not seen as the "real thing" usually.

Maybe the real problem is:

To look good = To look like a woman
To look better = to look even more like a woman

For me this is not interrelated or an automatism, and gets unhealthy if it gets an obligation.

If you interact and socialize on a regular day to day basis with people passing gets secondary anyway (your clothes will become an indicator rather than a convincer), your mannerism and behavior will be more important to be accepted as a woman.

[Patti Girl]

I haven't read all the posts yet, but in a perfect world, there shouldn't be a "better than/less than" for anyone. There needs to be more gender neutrality. I think it's comical on some days when I come to this site and read some of the things you ladies write. Obsession with passing, YET acting as if to be a "real lady" you have to get dressed to the nines to get eggs at the store. I am a GG, I pass every freaking day, I NEVER do that! So you are making yourself stand out, in essence.

Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say.

Obviously here, there is a high interest in "looking good". No, that's wrong, the interest is in "looking great". That's perfectly fine, but doesn't correlate with "blending in" with the typical GG.

Perhaps that's what we are arguing about: wanting to look spectacular (unlike most women on a typical day) vs. simple passing and blending in. Both are legitimate, but they are different goals, often at odds with each other, IMO.

I really doubt that I will every pass (6'0 barefoot, 200# doesn't lend itself to passing) and I currently have no desire to try to go out and pass. But I'm happy to be me, somewhat feminine. At home, I dress feminine, but when I go out, I keep the feminine things under cover or gender neutral (e.g. small earrings, very light lipstick or eyeshadow that only I know about). Enough to make me feel comfortable with my femininity without being noticeable. I'm happy with that. Obviously others here have different goals and that's fine too.

Patti

[Marla S]

No, not in native cultures.. all to my knowledge the prejudice started when Anglo people started changing our culture. Thankfully many of us are trying to bring it back with strength.
It is hard for me to differentiate between reality and romantic view here. My knowledge isn't deep enough, but taking the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit) as a basis, it isn't/wasn't the paradise either.

e.g.

Their dress is usually a mixture of traditionally male and traditionally female articles.
Can't see how that relates to passing or looking like a woman.


Although two-spirits were both respected and feared in many tribes, the two-spirit was not beyond reproach or even being killed for bad deeds

It needs a more differentiated view obviously, the more that those listed under "Modern people self-identified as Two-Spirits" (have searched for 10) don't seem to really fit into what we are talking about here. Seems to be rather gay/lesbain and/or queer related (My impression at the first glance, can be wrong of course)

[Nicki B]

(*My def of passing is: not being identified as GM. Maybe your's a different one and there is the problem)

....If you don't pass you'll get "Oh it's a man dressed like a woman" sooner or later. The later the better you pass, everything else is an illusion.

:winking:

My experience would be that it's NOT just either/or - people, in general, don't just view it as a binary when they're confronted with you?

They know that you're not born a woman - but they're happy to treat you as such - I guess because they see feminine qualities outweighing the masculine ones?

I can only speak for myself, but I don't regard that as passing (because it's not being identified as a GW), - but I do regard it as acceptance - and not as a GM?

[Kris]

It is hard for me to differentiate between reality and romantic view here. My knowledge isn't deep enough, but taking the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit) as a basis, it isn't/wasn't the paradise either.

e.g.

Can't see how that relates to passing or looking like a woman.



It needs a more differentiated view obviously, the more that those listed under "Modern people self-identified as Two-Spirits" (have searched for 10) don't seem to really fit into what we are talking about here. Seems to be rather gay/lesbain and/or queer related (My impression at the first glance, can be wrong of course)

With all due respect Marla - some white man probably wrote this definition because the world history is really his - story. Many white people don't understand native cultures at all.. like when the pilgrims came here, they saw men walking in front of women.. stating obviously that the women were subservient to the males.. and that wasn't it at all. Men are expendable. A man can have many children, and a woman can have one each nine months, he was in front so that if something bad was coming, it would give her a way to escape.

I can tell you it IS very wonderful in "traditional" native culture to be double spirited and I am not sure if two-spirited is a change due to tribal cultures or what... but even from part of the article that I read - you are the most powerful person in the tribe if you are the medicine person ( I don't use medicine MAN because there are very FEW tribes that had medicine MEN and not WOMEN) - another white thing from not understanding the culture. Anyway.....

I don't want to turn this into a history or Native American social studies class, but this dictionary definition is wrong. Someone double spirited did not just mean GAY.. that is the new world definition .. (some natives use it this way now, that aren't in touch with heritage) but it means to have the ability to see the world through both sexes eyes. Be it the wrong body, wrong gender, feeling half of both OR being gay - this is a gift, a much valued and respected gift which means that the Ancestors smiled upon you and made you special.

Which as far as I am concerned TOTALLY relates to cross dressing because how many of you feel feminine? How many times have I read, "I am in touch with and want to express the feminine side of me." I can't count, it's been that many. I may want to turn it into something "romantic" :heehee: but that doesn't mean that I am romanticizing about my heritage and the traditions of my people.

Getting into why double spirited people being killed for mistakes, or being banned is a totally different subject and I don't want to get into that here. Actually I don't really want to debate what I know to be true and would normally laugh and ignore your naive comments but I do believe they were made with a good heart and lack of understanding for a completely different culture that has been misrepresented for a few centuries.

I view each and everyone here as double spirited. Some leaning more one way than another but double spirited just the same. Someone to respect and admire which is what makes it romantic to me :heehee:

I think it is the third sex that everyone is seeking here.. and one that is a great gift.

:hugs: and :love:'s,

Kris

[Melanie R]

Passing is frequently in the eyes of the beholder. On our TG Halloween cruise we completed this week, my wife, Peggy, and I decided to eat breakfast each morning on the ship in the dining room. Our waiter was the same for the 8 day cruise. He thought my wife and I were sisters and we played that role well. On the morning of the fourth day I had decided to be in drab for a shore excursion. The same waiter saw Peggy and Mel. He asked Peggy to introduce me. Peggy told him that I am Mel who is also Melanie. His response was "no way". She then proceeded to educate him about being transgendered. As we were leaving the table his response was, "When is Melanie returning? I miss her." Melanie did return for two additional mornings. Over the eight days our group of transgendered persons and their SO's educated many of the 2500 other passengers on board.

[Marla S]

:winking:

My experience would be that it's NOT just either/or - people, in general, don't just view it as a binary when they're confronted with you?

They know that you're not born a woman - but they're happy to treat you as such - I guess because they see feminine qualities outweighing the masculine ones?
There are scales, one scale pan is man the other woman, and it depends on the total wight of all aspects of a personality which one is up or if they are equal.
But here (forum, i-net) we only see the visible part presented with stills, that can cause a competition that only (but wrongly) focuses on my definition of passing.

But in real life it is indeed the bundle (look being a heavy weight), representing your definition of passing.

Hope that's it finally ..... please :hugs:

[Nicki B]

(My impression at the first glance, can be wrong of course)

Have a look at these, for some background?

http://www.angelfire.com/on/otherwise/native.html
http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/1996/outcome.htm
http://www.coreymondello.com/Berdache.html
http://www.phenomenologycenter.org/course/berdache.htm


The difficulty is that Euro-American cultures lack social and linguistic categories that can translate the pattern of beliefs, behaviors and customs represented by North American berdaches. Instead, writers have chosen between mutually exclusive terms that emphasize either gender variation or sexual variation - "hermaphrodite" and "sodomite," for example, or, more recently, "transsexual" (gender) and "homosexual" (sexuality).

I think that's rather what Kris said... :) The point is, that the idea's not new - it's been around a long time, just like trans people have?


PS - Kris - I hope I'm not offending by the use of the term 'Berdache'? It's just that's the term used in some of these links, however I know that it is disliked, by some, because of it's Arabic origins..

[Marla S]

@Kris
I said that I am not an expert for Native American culture, and I know that wiki is not the most reliable source. But nevertheless I still see a discrepancy between attempts to pass (with whatever means, subject of this thread) and the Native Americans approach.

@Nicki
I haven't read all the links completely,but I will.
But with my limited understanding, for me there is a basic question, which is important to be answered IMO, actually I am searching for an answer for a while already. The answer is independent from cultural differences IMO.

What do we want ?

Do we want to be considered man, woman or trans ?

If it is trans, than I can see where this "two spirited" fits in even in the Western culture.
The main difference would be that in the native American cultures it is respect to be "trans" or "two-spirited" respectively whereas in Wester culture it is not. But in both cultures it's a special, outstanding status.

I can live with I am neither a man nor a woman I am trans. Please respect me as such. But I am not sure if this is really the goal for a lot.
I.e. wouldn't be Male-to-Trans and Female-to-Trans be better "labels" ???

[Kris]

PS - Kris - I hope I'm not offending by the use of the term 'Berdache'? It's just that's the term used in some of these links, however I know that it is disliked, by some, because of it's Arabic origins..

LMAO ... Believe it or slurp it.. I am actually pretty hard to offend. I view people with bad intentions as "lacking in brain cells" and those with good intentions as " uninformed." Both to be not of faults of their own making.

:hugs:

[Kris]

What do we want ?

Do we want to be considered man, woman or trans ?



I think that this IS the answer to your question... Everyone gets to decide that for their selves~! That IS the point.

Native people view it as a "good special" and well, the rest of them, I haven't even begun to understand, nor do I want to. The best word that comes to mind is fear. People are naturally afraid of things that are different.

My understanding of what the "jest" of this thread was......

If you can pass, GREAT- GOOD for you.
If you can't pass, GREAT - GOOD for you...

No one is better, no one is worse. It is okay to be who you are .. and since there seems to be a "general feeling" that passing is of the utmost importance, letting those who do not pass know, that they play an important role in the acceptance of all trans-people as a whole. That even though often we speak of a trans spectrum, one side is not "better than" anyone else.

If WE can't band together and be a united front, society will continue to reek havoc with non acceptance of all kinds of minorities.

Please, Nicki if I misrepresented you feel free to put me in my place.

:hugs: and :love:'s,
Kris

[Patti Girl]

Do we want to be considered man, woman or trans ?

Marla,

could you clarify what you mean by "trans"? I assume you mean transgendered. Or do you mean transsexual?

I think you hit a critical issue with that question. Some of us feel "inbetween" and don't want to feel fully a woman. Others do.

Thanks,

Patti

[LA CINDY LOVE]

This thread is relay showing us who we are and our true face, VIOLETGRAY AND SUZY HARRISON are the best replays I have read they keep it real and to the point, SALANDRA you lost me girl if want people to KNOW you are a MAN then why do you dress up as a WOMAN?

Competing among CD'S is sad but is true we do not talk about it but look
we live in a very competitive world we are taught to be the best we can be at what ever we do, they say that the ultimate gold in cross-dressing is to pass, but we want to say it is self fulfillment,and making our self feel good but when we look in the mirror we do not say how good we feel we ask our self............... CAN I PASS?

LA CINDY LOVE

[Tammygirl]

Ladies
It is extremly important that I pass when I dress a go out in public!
I want people not notice me as a Yack! "MAN":thumbsdn: in a Dress! But as a good looking woman! Maybe a bit over dressed :D That's the way I like it!
I have been dressing for many years now and have had some scary situations!
Some nievie people have even called the police because I was using the Ladies room! Fortunely, The cops were very nice and explain to the Pepole complaining that "She" Would have more trouble use the Men's room The way she is dressed! Fortunitly I have not have any bad situations like that isome time. Because I take the efford to look my best to "Pass" I feel much better about myself when I do!

Lave Ya Tammy

[Marla S]

Marla,

could you clarify what you mean by "trans"? I assume you mean transgendered. Or do you mean transsexual?

I think you hit a critical issue with that question. Some of us feel "inbetween" and don't want to feel fully a woman. Others do.

Thanks,

Patti

Roughly spoken "trans" would be the analogue of "two spirited" (like I understand it). Or you also can describe it by "third gender".
Meaning a different quality (gender) than man or woman.

A value in itself and not a workaround with the aim to match the dual-sex ideology again.

A value that is so valuable that someone would say e.g. "I want to look trans" "I want to be accpeted as trans" instead of "I want to look like a woman/man" "I want to be accepted as man/woman"

Only this meaning would really cover the often mentioned gender spectrum, or rainbow IMO, because there is a wide range of "transinity". It would give the "third gender talk" a meaning and makes the tranny competition obsolete, because the tranny hierarchy is measured in terms of the binary gender system, but we are all trans hence alike in this respect.

@inbetween
If you are trans there is no inbetween, you represent a different quality. A special, unique quality to be proud of. One that doesn't need to be hidden, masked or needs to haunt for stereotypes. One that needs to be accepted, and respected, because it is.
(idealized view of course)

[Kris]

Roughly spoken "trans" would be the analogue of "two spirited" (like I understand it). Or you also can describe it by "third gender".
Meaning a different quality (gender) than man or woman.

A value in itself and not a workaround with the aim to match the dual-sex ideology again.

A value that is so valuable that someone would say e.g. "I want to look trans" "I want to be accpeted as trans" instead of "I want to look like a woman/man" "I want to be accepted as man/woman"

Only this meaning would really cover the often mentioned gender spectrum, or rainbow IMO, because there is a wide range of "transinity". It would give the "third gender talk" a meaning and makes the tranny competition obsolete, because the tranny hierarchy is measured in terms of the binary gender system, but we are all trans hence alike in this respect.

@inbetween
If you are trans there is no inbetween, you represent a different quality, one that needs to be accepted, and respected and which doesn't need to be hidden.
(idealized view of course)

Oh my gosh Marla ~

What a beautiful way to say this. This post almost made me cry. Thank you for your words.

:hugs: and :love:'s,
Kris

[Khriss]

Oh my gosh Marla ~

What a beautiful way to say this. This post almost made me cry. Thank you for your words.

:hugs: and :love:'s,
Kris

While just being 6'4" tall .would likely get some stares whether I dressed like a "soccer Mom" ... or any other subdued way ..
It's just a "reality" I need to accept !? xx"K"

[tvbeckytv]

Roughly spoken "trans" would be the analogue of "two spirited" (like I understand it). Or you also can describe it by "third gender".
Meaning a different quality (gender) than man or woman.

A value in itself and not a workaround with the aim to match the dual-sex ideology again.

A value that is so valuable that someone would say e.g. "I want to look trans" "I want to be accpeted as trans" instead of "I want to look like a woman/man" "I want to be accepted as man/woman"

Only this meaning would really cover the often mentioned gender spectrum, or rainbow IMO, because there is a wide range of "transinity". It would give the "third gender talk" a meaning and makes the tranny competition obsolete, because the tranny hierarchy is measured in terms of the binary gender system, but we are all trans hence alike in this respect.

@inbetween
If you are trans there is no inbetween, you represent a different quality. A special, unique quality to be proud of. One that doesn't need to be hidden, masked or needs to haunt for stereotypes. One that needs to be accepted, and respected, because it is.
(idealized view of course)


That’s absolutely how i perceive myself... beautifully succinct.
Provided there is acknowledgment that this 'state of being' exists, I am perfectly content. I fully appreciate that is not how many cds/tvs identify while dressed, but recognition of these different self identities is a good thing. You can be a tranny, neither trying to look like a woman, or a man in a dress.

[Kris]

While just being 6'4" tall .would likely get some stares whether I dressed like a "soccer Mom" ... or any other subdued way ..
It's just a "reality" I need to accept !? xx"K"

Absolutely not! What you need is a bunch of GG's who are over 6 feet tall to go hang out with you so you can "blend in" and that will make you feel better.

I gotta find that tall women's website with loads of pictures. I will and I will send it to you. But I am afraid as you will tower over most people that en femme or drab you are going to get looks. I am 4'11" and tall people are so beautiful to me. I almost always walk up and ask them how tall they are because I am jealous.

I have a friend who is a cd and 6'4" and I am going to have her over when my friends daughter is in town as April is 6'2" flat footed.. and April struts her stuff in high heels and DARES someone to make fun of her. :heehee:

I wouldn't want to meet April in a dark alley if she was angry.

:hugs: Kris

[charllote34]

Wow this is turning into a real debate !!! opinions i love em basically just be yourself no matter what you look like ,enjoy your life and dont stand on anybodys toes and you will be fine , take all the bad vibes on your chin look life in the eye and get on with it ,life is precious get the most out of it. One day ,the last day i have on this earth i dont want to end up with mind full of what ifs ! :hugs:

[Kate Simmons]

My goal is simple. I want to be viewed as someone who is ordinary, everyday and no one special. The reason I tell folks I'm a guy is because I want them to be aware of folks like us and the fact that we are just regular people who may have just a slightly different "take" on things and different ways of expressing who we are. I prove this by who I am, my friendly interaction with people, my accepting attitude and my actions and this is what helps people to think that maybe, just maybe he is not a weirdo after all and just enjoys being who he is. Hmm--maybe other TG people are not that bad either and possibly another heart is won and another door is opened.

It's entirely up to us, how we act and how we live our lives. We can go out and educate people on TG issues but unless they see it in action, it's meaningless to most and people forget rather quickly.

We are all seeking understanding and I see a lot of confusion but I also see a lot of hope, not only for our community but for everyone. We have to live together and we are all stuck on this planet together. Slowly progress is being made by organizations and Forums such as this one, we are also winning hearts of people one at a time and the time is coming when we will be considered ordinary just like everyone else with no more double takes. Works for me. Keep up the good work my friends.:thumbsup::happy:

[Kieron Andrew]

It's entirely up to us, how we act and how we live our lives. We can go out and educate people on TG issues but unless they see it in action, it's meaningless to most and people forget rather quickly.

you said exactly how i see it thats why i have no problem stating im trans :)

[Lucy Bright]

Great thread! This is something I've never quite managed to get my head round (yet).

People talk about gender as a spectrum, and I can see how that's a useful concept, but so much of our thinking, culture and language is set up in binaries that it's hard to apply - and even to think in that way for any sustained period seems to require a kind of mental energy I don't always have. Is gender analogue, or digital? A wave or a particle? Or are these words just clumsy gestures towards a reality we can't quite comprehend?

I've always been fascinated by ambiguous figures (such as this one (http://dragon.uml.edu/psych/woman.html)): you can see them as one thing or another, but not both at the same time. Or, with a bit of practice, you can see them as just an abstract group of lines. Sometimes gender's a bit like that. I think of myself as transgender, and I suppose that means that ideally I'd like to be serenely occupying the elusive 'third gender' position between male and female, And sometimes indeed I am - but more often I'm often flip-flopping between the two in quick succession! Whether that's an effect of culture, or language, or hardwiring in the brain I don't know, but it can be a rather bewildering experience.

That said, I don't ever think of myself as having two personalities - a male and a female one. I don't really like to use an alternative name, even (I'm Lucy here for reasons of anonymity, and because it's what my parents would have called me had I been born a GG). I'm lucky, because my name in RL is one some GGs use also, so I can just think of myself with alternative pronouns. The disconnect is less when I can keep the same name - but there's still no middle way between male and female pronouns, at least in my language.

The best way I've managed to feel comfortable with it so far is to think of the way that certain gods have different 'aspects' - the Greek gods were like this, and many others - so that you could have Athena as a warrior, Athena as a protector of Athens, Athena goddess of wisom, etc. Or, say, in Hinduism there's Parvati/Kali. These different aspects can behave and look very differently but they're still recognized as the same deity. Now, I'm no goddess, but sometime it helps to think of my male and female sides as different aspects of a single person - the same person seen from a different angle. I'm not offering this as a truth about gender - but it helps me hang on to my sanity! (And it's not so different from the way I have other aspects - as parent, lover, worker, etc - in each of which roles I behave and even look quite different. But they're all me - it's not that one's real and the others an act.)

Kisses,

Lucy

[Patti Girl]

Roughly spoken "trans" would be the analogue of "two spirited" (like I understand it). Or you also can describe it by "third gender".
Meaning a different quality (gender) than man or woman.

A value in itself and not a workaround with the aim to match the dual-sex ideology again.

A value that is so valuable that someone would say e.g. "I want to look trans" "I want to be accpeted as trans" instead of "I want to look like a woman/man" "I want to be accepted as man/woman"

Only this meaning would really cover the often mentioned gender spectrum, or rainbow IMO, because there is a wide range of "transinity". It would give the "third gender talk" a meaning and makes the tranny competition obsolete, because the tranny hierarchy is measured in terms of the binary gender system, but we are all trans hence alike in this respect.

@inbetween
If you are trans there is no inbetween, you represent a different quality. A special, unique quality to be proud of. One that doesn't need to be hidden, masked or needs to haunt for stereotypes. One that needs to be accepted, and respected, because it is.
(idealized view of course)

Marla,

Thank you! Very good and helpful and a new perspective!

Patti

[Patti Girl]

Competing among CD'S is sad but is true we do not talk about it but look
we live in a very competitive world we are taught to be the best we can be at what ever we do, they say that the ultimate gold in cross-dressing is to pass, but we want to say it is self fulfillment,and making our self feel good but when we look in the mirror we do not say how good we feel we ask our self............... CAN I PASS?

LA CINDY LOVE

Cindy,

Please don't feel that I'm picking on you, but "competitiveness" is usually considered more of a male quality than a female one. In fact, my lack of competitiveness is one of the reasons that I feel feminine.

Patti

[Kris]

Cindy,

Please don't feel that I'm picking on you, but "competitiveness" is usually considered more of a male quality than a female one. In fact, my lack of competitiveness is one of the reasons that I feel feminine.

Patti

Patti,

GG's are pretty darned competitive as well but in a different way. We rarely are physically competitive, but competitive over weight (Emily, Nikki, MJ, and myself) and what clothes we wear, and who's got more money, etc.

Just had to throw that out there, all sexes are competitive just GG's do it in a slightly different way. Have you ever heard a man gasp at a party and say, "How dare he wear the same tie as me?"

:hugs: and :love:'s,
Kris

[Khriss]

this thread seems like "trolling" in the worst way !
Defend it any way You like ..but it smells like shit ,looks like shit ..and begs replies full of shit too !? I do'nt need validation from anyone who replied to this load of CRAP !!! :mad::thumbsdn:

[Kieron Andrew]

this thread seems like "trolling" in the worst way !
Defend it any way You like ..but it smells like shit ,looks like shit ..and begs replies full of shit too !? I do'nt need validation from anyone who replied to this load of CRAP !!! :mad::thumbsdn:

Whoa! thats wayyyyyyy strong, no one is trolling!!! its just a discussion and a good one at that! Chill!!!

We now return to our regular scheduling, carry on girls :D

[SirTrey]

this thread seems like "trolling" in the worst way !
Defend it any way You like ..but it smells like shit ,looks like shit ..and begs replies full of shit too !? I do'nt need validation from anyone who replied to this load of CRAP !!!

You know, if you didn't want to participate in the discussion, you should have just NOT....If you don't like the topic, don't READ IT....and if you don't have anything to say, DON'T POST....How hard is that? But instead you choose attention seeking ranting that says basically nothing....you slam the thread, but contribute NADA....If there was a point, I think we all missed it...and if there wasn't...don't you have something better to do?? Geez, I HOPE so....**Trey**

[Kris]

this thread seems like "trolling" in the worst way !
Defend it any way You like ..but it smells like shit ,looks like shit ..and begs replies full of shit too !? I do'nt need validation from anyone who replied to this load of CRAP !!! :mad::thumbsdn:

I am interested in your reasons to call this thread trolling in the worst way. Please, instead of juvenile name calling, please do explain yourself - if you have a reason.

I am sorry that your precious nasal passages were so offended, (you must have something on your shoe) because I have yet to smell the internet. I also would like to point out that it's okay that you don't need validation to this post that many have spent hours discussing and learning from, as well as I don't believe that we asked you for your validation as well.

Your opinion of this thread, even though you have a right to it, is irrelevant to the subject. Didn't anyone teach you, do unto others as you would have done unto you? Or, plain old, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all?

I would say a case of ladylike manner lessons are now much needed..

But that's just my opinion.

:hugs: and you have a nice night too.. I do so appreciate your sharing.

[Khriss]

I'm just bothered by "Comparisons " made by ourselves or others ...
as in .. Pretty Tranny's are ok , though those with some 5 O'Clock shadow or other perceved flaws .. are EWWW - sad sick folks that need help ..
just an observation and no..vulgar language eh ? "K"

and the thread started out in a good way !!
then, do I feel intimidated about expressing Myself here ,over any topic ???? NOT !

[Nicki B]

I'm just bothered by "Comparisons " made by ourselves or others ...
as in .. Pretty Tranny's are ok , though those with some 5 O'Clock shadow or other perceved flaws .. are EWWW - sad sick folks that need help ..
just an observation and no..vulgar language eh ? "K"


Khriss, have you actually read the thread? Please do, 'cos that's the point of it, so no wonder your comment came over to folk as strange? :strugglin

[Marla S]

It is rare, that a single thread has such a big impact on me. I’ve learned a lot, and had to change my view. Ghost like thoughts, finally took form after a long time and could made a feeling.

It needed the right thread, right questions, answers, post, criticism, and the right people for it. Each single post was important.
Special thanks to Nicki for starting this thread and your patience (it feels a bit like I did highjack it, sorry) and Rita for your previous thread.

Thank you Salandra, Dita B, Stephanie S, Violetgray, tracigirl, Patti Girl, Brianna Lovely, Kieron, Ðarissa, jaina, STEVEO, Sugar01, azalea, Sheri 4242, Lisa Golightly, nikki_t, MJ, charllote34, gennee, Julogden, Ruth, Sally24, JaytoJillian, Beth-GDB, docrobbysherry, Billijo49504, Melissa Davis, MsJanessa, Karren Hutton, Darla in Pa., Sam-antha, JoAnnDallas, Kelsy, marie354, Suzy Harrison, deborah jane, tvbeckytv, Kris, Melanie R, LA CINDY LOVE, Tammygirl, Khriss, Lucy Bright, SirTrey (in order of appearance, hope I didn’t miss someone) for your contributions.


Thank you
You are a diverse crowd, but that is what is needed to learn and make progress: diversity.:love:

I hope some of you did profit as well ….... I am quite exhausted now.:sleep:, but first I have a :drink: on you

[Cara Allen]

No... But what will make me feel like logging off is another... 'Oh God not another war on the forum thread'. Seen them elsewhere and it led me to log off for good.

No need, Lisa. Just let them do their thing, and you go shopping!

[Kris]

It is rare, that a single thread has such a big impact on me. I’ve learned a lot, and had to change my view. Ghost like thoughts, finally took form after a long time and could made a feeling.

It needed the right thread, right questions, answers, post, criticism, and the right people for it. Each single post was important.
Special thanks to Nicki for starting this thread and your patience (it feels a bit like I did highjack it, sorry) and Rita for your previous thread.

Thank you Salandra, Dita B, Stephanie S, Violetgray, tracigirl, Patti Girl, Brianna Lovely, Kieron, Ðarissa, jaina, STEVEO, Sugar01, azalea, Sheri 4242, Lisa Golightly, nikki_t, MJ, charllote34, gennee, Julogden, Ruth, Sally24, JaytoJillian, Beth-GDB, docrobbysherry, Billijo49504, Melissa Davis, MsJanessa, Karren Hutton, Darla in Pa., Sam-antha, JoAnnDallas, Kelsy, marie354, Suzy Harrison, deborah jane, tvbeckytv, Kris, Melanie R, LA CINDY LOVE, Tammygirl, Khriss, Lucy Bright, SirTrey (in order of appearance, hope I didn’t miss someone) for your contributions.


Thank you
You are a diverse crowd, but that is what is needed to learn and make progress: diversity.:love:

I hope some of you did profit as well ….... I am quite exhausted now.:sleep:, but first I have a :drink: on you


And thank you Marla for asking and debating in such a respectful manner. I feel just as exhausted as you did last night... but in such a good way.

So, the street goes both ways.

:hugs: Kris

[MJ]

no thank you Marla this is a very interesting thread . and thank you all for your insightful information

[dannie lee]

does any one realy want to see a hairy man wearing a dress? wearing pantyhose with hairy leggs? sporting a five o'clock shadow with lipstick and eye makeup? well mayby on comedy central! LOL. we are tring to be girls and that means doing are best to pass as one right?

[LA CINDY LOVE]

SALANDRA I must say after reading your reply I get your point and you are right, there are times that I want people to know that I am a CD and I am very proud of what I do.

People think that we are confusion but do they know us we are some very successful people.

I do not dress for me or to make myself feel good I dress to get notice I know when I pull up in the club in my BMW or to get gas CINDY is trying to be a show off and what I found out from reading this thread is that CINDY is a competitive person and I did not know that about my self, I just thought I was a out going person.............it is real sad to find out you are what you hate about people I can under stand why KHRISS lost her cool.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Nicki B]

does any one realy want to see a hairy man wearing a dress? wearing pantyhose with hairy leggs? sporting a five o'clock shadow with lipstick and eye makeup? well mayby on comedy central! LOL. we are tring to be girls and that means doing are best to pass as one right?

Dannie, again with respect - I think maybe you've missed the point of the thread?


But, an aside - I know two girls in Bristol who have been transitioned some time - they both work as bus drivers. Neither of them is blessed with anything other than a masculine frame and facial features. Gradually they have saved towards facial and other surgery - but certainly for one, the reassignment surgery just had to come first.

No one who looks at them has any doubt that they were born male - but they live as they do because they don't have any other choice. I think they're amongst the bravest people I know...:straightface:


Do you think drag queens, or LGs, are trying to pass? They have just as much right to be themselves too - and if you have ever met any, you'll know how tough that can be...


You are a diverse crowd

IMHO, that's our greatest strength? :)

[Melissa Davis]

Ok, so it seems to me what you are saying is that it's better if we don't pass because those that do pass are not doing the rest of the TG community any favors. (right? or am I going to get the head hitting the brick wall smiley again? :happy:)

Well, personally I think it's great that we do have the diversity of those that pass really well and those that don't pass but don't let that hold them back from living as a TG person.

Granted I've only been to 2 Tri-Ess meetings, however I think it's great that whatever resturant or place we are in, the folks around can see Some that pass better than others as well as the GGs that are in our group (the SO's). I think we look really good together being unified and diversified.

[crusadergirl]

I was going to go in to along post about this but for the most part no ones going to care what i say. Can i pass better then you all no way i can't pass even b/c i'm not a girl i just like looking like one. Passing it don't matter at all b/c i just don't have the look are the walk i don't act like a girl either.
So i resign from cding for now.

[Kate Simmons]

I was going to go in to along post about this but for the most part no ones going to care what i say. Can i pass better then you all no way i can't pass even b/c i'm not a girl i just like looking like one. Passing it don't matter at all b/c i just don't have the look are the walk i don't act like a girl either.
So i resign from cding for now.I personally feel you look good Hon. How we feel about ourselves is one of the points being made here. If I go out one night and am feeling good about being myself, no one is going to break my mood and I don't give a hang what they think really, I'm having fun.:happy:

[Melissa Davis]

i just don't have the look are the walk i don't act like a girl either.
So i resign from cding for now.
I felt like that once a while back. I quit CDing too. That was a long day.

Is that you in your profile pic? You are sooo cute! Girl, just enhance your good qualities, practice being a girl and don't worry about the rest. You look great from what I can see. :happy:

[Nicki B]

From her previous posts/threads, I do wonder if Kirra is being entirely serious? :hmmm:



Another thought occurred to me, after reading another thread here - isn't 'passing' essentially about trying to fool people that you're something you're really not?

And isn't the first and foremost of all the people that you're trying to fool, yourself? :strugglin


AND, when you do that, there's inevitably a failure rate - sometimes you can't succeed? So I'm suggesting shifting the target to something that is achieveable ALL the time...

[Kate Simmons]

Exactly Nicki. It's lonely at the "top" anyway with no one to talk to. I'd much rather concentrate on enjoying being myself and having fun.:happy:

[tvbeckytv]

From her previous posts/threads, I do wonder if Kirra is being entirely serious? :hmmm:



Another thought occurred to me, after reading another thread here - isn't 'passing' essentially about trying to fool people that you're something you're really not?

And isn't the first and foremost of all the people that you're trying to fool, yourself? :strugglin


AND, when you do that, there's inevitably a failure rate - sometimes you can't succeed? So I'm suggesting shifting the target to something that is achieveable ALL the time...

it sounds as if you and a few others here have much the same self identity as i do... that we are tranny, and present ourselves as such. If we present ourselves well, and get the message over that we are TG without the need to trick others into thinking we are female, rather 'womanly' people being ourselves...thats a fantastic place to be. As you say, we pass everyday in our tranny gender.
But we must not lose sight that there are many motives behind crossdressing, and for many others it is all about being taken for being female, felling for the time they dressed that they are women.
I dont think it right for us to suggest they should see themselves in any other way. If this thread has achieved what i thought it had, then we can accept that the gender 'tranny' exists. That is my gender, but how can i expect those of a different gender to feel as i (we) do. Spreading the word is a great thing, but IMHO it should fall short of trying to convert others self identity, even temporary 'while dressed' identities.

B

[Kris]

it sounds as if you and a few others here have much the same self identity as i do... that we are tranny, and present ourselves as such. If we present ourselves well, and get the message over that we are TG without the need to trick others into thinking we are female, rather 'womanly' people being ourselves...thats a fantastic place to be. As you say, we pass everyday in our tranny gender.
But we must not lose sight that there are many motives behind crossdressing, and for many others it is all about being taken for being female, felling for the time they dressed that they are women.
I dont think it right for us to suggest they should see themselves in any other way. If this thread has achieved what i thought it had, then we can accept that the gender 'tranny' exists. That is my gender, but how can i expect those of a different gender to feel as i (we) do. Spreading the word is a great thing, but IMHO it should fall short of trying to convert others self identity, even temporary 'while dressed' identities.

B

In my observation of this thread, no one is trying to say that anyone should see themselves in any certain way or another. I was just trying to say that it's okay to be who you are and if you are someone who can't pass, or doesn't pass sometimes it's no reason to stay in the closet and not enjoy life.


I was going to go in to along post about this but for the most part no ones going to care what i say. Can i pass better then you all no way i can't pass even b/c i'm not a girl i just like looking like one. Passing it don't matter at all b/c i just don't have the look are the walk i don't act like a girl either.
So i resign from cding for now.

I care what you have to say, just as I am interested in everyones posts here. Do feel you have to have a huge audience to express yourself? It is just sad that you said that.. because it doesn't matter who wants your opinion the point is that others will read it. Maybe you will spark something in someone else and they will write, and yet we will get two other opinions, which is always a good thing!! I also have to ask, why are you resigning from cding now?

:hugs: Kris

PS. I also have to say that I don't think you look BAD in your profile picture... no one said you had to look like Marilyn Monroe.

[Karren H]

I also have to ask, why are you resigning from cding now?

:hugs: Kris

PS. I also have to say that I don't think you look BAD in your profile picture... no one said you had to look like Marilyn Monroe.


I didn't know you could resign!!! Damn that would be too easy!! hehe

Karren

[Deborah Jane]

In my observation of this thread, no one is trying to say that anyone should see themselves in any certain way or another. I was just trying to say that it's okay to be who you are and if you are someone who can't pass, or doesn't pass sometimes it's no reason to stay in the closet and not enjoy life.





Nice sentiment Kris..I,ll try and remember that the next time i attempt to go out and change my mind :hugs:

[sissy_she_boy]

Personally being passable is very important to me. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am attracted to men. And the truth of the matter is that men (especially the str8 acting masculine ones) like a girl that is at least somewhat passable. So, I do my best to look as feminie and passable as possible. Thank god for makeup LOL. I am not really all that passable, but with the right makeup I can be pretty passable.

kisses
siss dana

[Kris]

Personally being passable is very important to me. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am attracted to men. And the truth of the matter is that men (especially the str8 acting masculine ones) like a girl that is at least somewhat passable. So, I do my best to look as feminie and passable as possible. Thank god for makeup LOL. I am not really all that passable, but with the right makeup I can be pretty passable.

kisses
siss dana

But genetically you are a male, and if they see themselves as st8......... ? I don't get it.

[sissy_she_boy]

But genetically you are a male, and if they see themselves as st8......... ? I don't get it.

I have dated lots of men that see themselves as str8. They also see me as a woman and not a man. I really love dating men like that. It just makes me feel really feminine.

[tvbeckytv]

But genetically you are a male, and if they see themselves as st8......... ? I don't get it.

If you label sexuality by bilogical sex then you would think them gay, but you can choose to perceive it through gender, in which case its not gay... on the assumption of course that the tranny has a non male gender, and that the man is not attracted o the male gender.

[charlie]

I am a married crossdresser that is in the closet. When I dart out to a transgendered bar the pretty and very passable transgendered ladies seem to be the ones that will talk to me. They give tips for my makeup, suggest things to wear and make me feel welcome. I believe they do this to show support and because everyone there knows I'm not there to find a man or be any sort of adversary to them. I am not passable at all from the neck up. A wig can not hide that chin! I'm just there doing my own thing and am not a threat. Does that mean that I'm at the bottom of the totem pole as well? Perhaps.

[Nicki B]

Does that mean that I'm at the bottom of the totem pole as well?

No honey - it doesn't.

[Kris]

Does that mean that I'm at the bottom of the totem pole as well? Perhaps.

That is one of the things that I hate about this cross dressing thing... there ISN'T a bottom of the totem pole....

And frankly who says being at the bottom of a totem pole is bad? It really means you are close to making the next journey of your life......... so maybe you are about to break out of your cocoon!

:hugs: and :love:'s,
Kris

[Kate Simmons]

Holy Moley, this thing is still going? Here's the deal. No one is any better or worse than anyone else. CDing is a fact of life for some and we all deal with our feelings and express ourselves the best way we can. We could just try to forget about it and be miserable but we have accepted the challenge of being ourselves and are people with real guts, can't say that for the majority of people on this planet. That is my story and I'm sticking to it. I'm dressed right now and it is a beautiful day, a beautiful day indeed. Need I say more?;):battingeyelashes::happy: