Is Sexual Orientation an Issue? (All Can Answer)

[CaptLex]

I've been reading the umpteenth thread in the MtF section about whether it's "bad" or incorrect to label crossdressers gay. It's a never-ending discussion there, with people commenting on all sides of the issue, and it made me wonder why it doesn't seem to be much of an issue with us. I'm guessing it might have to do with the difference between most FtMs and MtFs. In other words, it seems a lot of FtMs do not identify as crossdressers - and there may be a larger diversity in our group: bi-gendered, genderqueer, TG, TS, and people born female-bodied who don't quite feel female, but don't attach a label to themselves.

Anyway, my point is that our group here (which I believe is representative of transmasculine people everywhere) doesn't seem to have much of an issue with sexual orientation, other than to occasionally question whether we may be open to switching teams. Why the diff? Why don't we wonder as much about this stuff? Many of us have been incorrectly labeled in our sexual orientation and we have no problem correcting people, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to it as "bad" - just incorrect.

Also, Trey and I had a discussion recently about how fluid gender and sexuality are, and the numerous combinations that can come about because of this. Aren't we limiting ourselves if we apply sexual orientation tags to ourselves also? Isn't there an almost limitless combination between all the different gender roles and forms of attraction? Is this thread too serious - should we just break out the rum? :p

[Lisa Golightly]

I am plastic. :)

[Nicki B]

I am plastic. :)

But platinum, of course. :winking:

Being new round here, I confess I think it may be an american thing... :hiding:

[Kieron Andrew]

I am plastic. :)

thought you were gold myself!

Yup im with Nicki on this, shoot me if you like but i think its an american thing....but as to why it doesnt happen on side of the fence, dunno! maybe part of it is we see gender and sexuality as seperate, and our gender issues dont cloud what we are sexually attracted to on any given day, which i guess goes hand in hand with your conversation with Trey about Fluidity of gender and sexuality (did any of that just make one iota of sense lol)

[Teresa Amina]

It's a real minefield growing up male in the US, at least it used to be. Hopefully things are improving for the younguns but way back when if you were "different" you caught hell for it. The slightest breach of expectation got you labelled, shunned and probably beat up. Learning quickly to cover up and blend in were necessities. Is it really a surprise that some "protesteth too much"?

[Tobie]

An interesting topic.

I find it a bit amusing that crossdressing males would be called gay, when most of them are actually quite heterosexual.

I definitely feel that gender and sexuality are two very different things. My sexuality is as fluid as my gender. And although my preferences are the same whether I'm Melissa or Tiergan, they are 'labeled' two different things. Silly, in my mind.

[ZenFrost]

I think it has something to do with the fact that many (not all) MtFs are heterosexual men who dress as women, and since crossdressing is often seen as queer, they're worried that they'll be seen as gay. On the other side, many (but not all) of us FtMs started out thinking we were lesbians and got comfortable with that fact before realizing we were transmasculine. I think that's just one of the reasons. Another could be that guys tend to be less high strung the girls. :winkp:

But I think the biggest reason why we don't seem to fret over our sexual orientations the same way many MtFs do is because we are a minority within a minority within a minority, and as such we've learned that labels only serve to separate us further.

[Anthony Jake]

I think Zen puts it very well there.

there is so much more than just a label to a person, i think people worry too much about how they are being percieved.

But i have noticed the MtF section seem to be more self conscious over what they should think of themselves... does that make sense?

[Marla S]

Personally sexual orientation isn't an issue for me. I think to know how I am wired :heehee: and I actually couldn't care less about the sexual orientation of others ... I usually talk to and discuss with people :tongueout The occasions when the sexual orientation of others really would effect me are not very frequent.:straightface:

BUT: I can't hear this word GAY anymore, because it is used by non-LGB(T) folks usually as an insult and stigma ... killer argument

Just last weak I was asked not to participate in a meeting, because one of the GGs has seen me with makeup and nail-polish, thinks I am gay, which scares her (I don't have to understand this, do I).:Angry3:

In this respect it is an issue for me.

[Cai]

I'd fall into the camp that doesn't care one iota about sexual orientation. I realised last week that I really can't put a label on orientation right now. And that doesn't bother me.

[MJ]

well i don't consider myself a cross dresser and i don't care if someone labels me gay or what ever i am just me ..no big deal
i wonder if it is the difference between those who just cross dress and those of us who are in transition after all .. if one is just a guy who likes to dress then the label would offend some imho

[Kate Simmons]

Yoiks Lex, call me anything but a donkey's butt. Means precious little to me since I don't give a rat's patudie what others call me. Now, about that rum.....................:drink::drink:

[Lisa Golightly]

But platinum, of course. :winking:

Isn't the black one the 'I'll take that island and throw in that hotel as well' card? I'd rather be that one...

I think Zen talks a lot of sense.

[SirTrey]

Lex....Right on the money....Those ARE very fluid....and we did have a GREAT talk about that at lunch, btw....Glad it spurred you on to the post....I can't add to it, just wanted to say, glad you posted it and, right as usual, Captain. <<and no, I am not sucking up to get a promotion, I already GOT one>>> :)

[Anthony Jake]

Lex....Right on the money....Those ARE very fluid....and we did have a GREAT talk about that at lunch, btw....Glad it spurred you on to the post....I can't add to it, just wanted to say, glad you posted it and, right as usual, Captain. <<and no, I am not sucking up to get a promotion, I already GOT one>>> :)

i do hope thats not aimed at me trey! i could take offense :D

but that bottom paragraph i don't totally agree with labels.. annoying things to satisfy the minds of others really, i mean, if people are happy to not label themselves why should they have to define who they are to satisfy someone elses curiosity? - things have become so diverse now that i think it is far easier not to have to label oneself totally; people see a label as a permenant thing.. when with sexuality and gender a label can continually expand and change.

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

Wow... interesting question Lex. I have no clue why it seems to be easier for our side of the spectrum to hang loose with orientation versus the girls who often seem more uptight. Zen's theories make a lot of sense though. Actually, one of the first things I noticed/was surprised at is how many "gay" FtM's there are; that is, androsexual FtM's. Before I knew very many transguys, I always kind of assumed (this sounds ridiculous in retrospect) that transmen were basically butch lesbians who had decided life would be easier as a straight man. Then [obviously] I revised that opinion once I actually got to know some transguys (and figured things out for myself.)

As to gender identity and sexuality being related and/or fluid, I kind of think that sexuality is like the tail of the gender kite... so... if your gender is grounded, so is your sexuality. If it changes, then what you are attracted to and what you call it may also (and invariably) change. Dunno... just some thoughts... I could way off base... Either way I need a :drink: now to de-cramp my brain. :heehee:

[bi_weird]

Yeah it's funny how people get those so mixed up. Convenient for me, I guess, because I'm half gay and half trans, so the fact that one tends to suggest the other works for me. But it definitely doesn't have to be that way. Who I'm attracted to and who I am are very much separate. I think a lot of why it's such a big deal, for the MtFs, prolly is very much an American thing, that it's hard here for guys who are seen as feminine to get accepted, so to feel accepted among guys they have to hold on to all of their masculine traits possible.
A thing about labels though. So many people are against labels, and I understand where they're coming from, but I'm a real big fan of 'em. I once knew this person, Robbie, who'd come out to their parents as bisexual, pansexual, transgender, and pangender on separate occasions. Or something like that. How confused would YOUR parents be after being told all of those things, including some ideas really foreign to straight cisgender people. I figure, for straight people, I'm willing to take labels (bisexual, transgender/confused) that they're likely to recognize and which fit me at a broad level. The thing is, those labels don't define me; I define them. I won't let myself get trapped by labels. When people ask me if being bi means I'm polyamorous , I correct them that some bisexuals are poly, and some poly-people (what's the plural?) are bi, but the two don't mean the same thing. Same for any other thing people try to attach to who I am.
As for fluidity...I'm curious as to the opinions of the older people. At 22, I can tell you that both my gender and sexuality have small variations, but never long lasting, so that I figure I average out to nearly the middle on both scales. Has anyone found long term trends? Did your orientation or gender identity change at some point in your life? I'm just really curious, because I've heard before how things could be fluid, and I'd like to hear from anyone that's experienced that.

[Sally24]

You should notice that even in the "straight" population, a woman's sexual orientation is not nearly as big a deal as a guy's. Most women and men will hang with a lesbian/bi or work with them, no problem. When we get to male oreintation it's a different matter. Males who are percieved as gay have a larger percentage of the population that feel "funny" about interacting with them. I don't know if it is an american thing or just a male thing. Many men are intigued by a bisexual women but put-off by a bisexual man. Go figure!

[CaptLex]

Males who are percieved as gay have a larger percentage of the population that feel "funny" about interacting with them.
I think you mean that straight men may feel funny about interacting with gay men - straight women generally love gay men. :happy:

[SirTrey]

i do hope thats not aimed at me trey! i could take offense

LOL....No, no.....I used to get teased about sucking up to the Captain to "get a promotion"....Pretty much started when Lex called Me "honey" "in a gay way"....:) So, no, the post was a reference to that.....But sucking up to the Captain is never a bad idea.....:) **Trey**

[wanttobejoe]

While my sexual orientation is clear (I like guys :D), I'm not exactly sure what label it should get, since my gender isn't clearly male or female (on a scale of 1 (female) to 10 (male) I would position myself around 6 (slightly towards the male side).

I'm pretty sure some people think I'm lesbian, mainly because the way I dress (gender neutral or male clothes) is something people associate with butch lesbians. But like most others here I couldn't care less about that. :p

[CaptLex]

While my sexual orientation is clear (I like guys :D), I'm not exactly sure what label it should get, since my gender isn't clearly male or female (on a scale of 1 (female) to 10 (male) I would position myself around 6 (slightly towards the male side).
You're absolutely right, Joe. That's why I said we shouldn't necessarily limit ourselves by attaching sexual orientation tags (though for some people the tags fit and aren't limiting), because of the various combinations that can come out of both gender fluidity and sexual/romantic attraction.


I'm pretty sure some people think I'm lesbian, mainly because the way I dress (gender neutral or male clothes) is something people associate with butch lesbians. But like most others here I couldn't care less about that. :p
Yeah, that goes with the territory. People have assumed I'm a lesbian all my life because they saw me as a masculine female, rather than a femmy guy. Even after I came out and explained to people that I like boys, some people still didn't get it. :p

[Nicki B]

Another could be that guys tend to be less high strung the girls. :winkp:

..Right.... :hmmm:


As for fluidity...I'm curious as to the opinions of the older people. At 22, I can tell you that both my gender and sexuality have small variations, but never long lasting, so that I figure I average out to nearly the middle on both scales. Has anyone found long term trends? Did your orientation or gender identity change at some point in your life? I'm just really curious, because I've heard before how things could be fluid, and I'd like to hear from anyone that's experienced that.

I'd say my gender has moved, along a sliding scale, as I've released feelings and behaviours from where I kept them hidden/ignored.. (And I've been around more than twice as long as you... :))


Males who are percieved as gay have a larger percentage of the population that feel "funny" about interacting with them. I don't know if it is an american thing or just a male thing.

I'd have said it was particular to the US - but Marla indicates above it still can be a problem in Europe???



S'funny, in my experience, straight women are usually very comfortable with gay guys - they're no threat?

[ZenFrost]

While my sexual orientation is clear (I like guys :D), I'm not exactly sure what label it should get, since my gender isn't clearly male or female (on a scale of 1 (female) to 10 (male) I would position myself around 6 (slightly towards the male side).

Androphilic. I tend to avoid gay/straight distinctions because it makes things tricky to explain which is why the terms gynophilic and androphilic are useful. I'm gynophilic (attracted to women) and if you're attracted to men then you'd be androphilic.

I do think that labels complicate things and don't work for everyone, but if you need a word to describe your sexual orientation without alluding to your gender, they're useful.


..Right.... :hmmm:

Women tend to be more emotional than men, and a number of scientific studies have proved that. I was speaking ironically however because many MtFs are simply crossdressers and do not have the hormones and brain chemistry that causes that.

[CaptLex]

Androphilic. I tend to avoid gay/straight distinctions because it makes things tricky to explain which is why the terms gynophilic and androphilic are useful. I'm gynophilic (attracted to women) and if you're attracted to men then you'd be androphilic.
Good point, oh wise Guru, but (just to mix the pot a little :devil:) . . . what if someone is attracted to males sexually and both males and females romantically (you may recall the thread about being homosexual and heteroromatic, for example)? Would that person still be androphillic in your opinion? Just wondering . . . :idontknow:

[Emily Ann Brown]

WOW WHAT A THREAD !!!!


Salandra....you ol' donkey's butt you, go get us some more rum !


Sally touched on exactly what came to my mind....men LOVE to see two women in a porn video (whatever definition you use that's not a hetrosexual relationship sexually) but would freak out if suddenly the video featured two MEN engaged in sex with each other....WRONG WRONG WRONG they'd scream ! Oh give me a break guys...be CONSISTANT !

For all the Brits that have replied so far.....you have had so many more centuries to get over your puritanical roots. Give us Americans another 300-400 years and we will have managed to pull our heads out of our collective butt....MAYBE.

I will alienate myself from the M2F section with this next remark...you guys here have it so much more together than we have. I personally think it is because (A.) you know who you are and so be it (B.) you are men without the the detrimental adolescent effects of testosterone on your mental development. I should have been so blessed, I can only be a female suffering from testosterone poisioning at best.

I will leave you now. All this thinking is way too deep....me head hurts now....Captain....more rum please sir.


Emily Ann

[CaptLex]

For all the Brits that have replied so far.....you have had so many more centuries to get over your puritanical roots. Give us Americans another 300-400 years and we will have managed to pull our heads out of our collective butt....MAYBE.
:lol2: So true . . .


you are men without the the detrimental adolescent effects of testosterone on your mental development.
But honey, trust me . . . those adolescent effects are happening now! :heehee:


I will leave you now. All this thinking is way too deep....me head hurts now....Captain....more rum please sir.


Emily Ann
I'm going to join you, Emily Ann . . . here, I'll pour. :drink:

[ZenFrost]

Good point, oh wise Guru, but (just to mix the pot a little :devil:) . . . what if someone is attracted to males sexually and both males and females romantically (you may recall the thread about being homosexual and heteroromatic, for example)? Would that person still be androphillic in your opinion? Just wondering . . . :idontknow:

Saying I'm gynophilic isn't the same as saying I'm heterosexual because 'philia' and 'sexual' aren't the same thing. Philia means love of or attraction to, and it doesn't have to be a sexual attraction. For instance, if someone is metrophilic that person loves poetry, it doesn't mean that person wants to have sex with a poem. I'm asexual and gynophilic, I'm attracted to women but not in a sexual way. Does that explain it well enough?

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

Saying I'm gynophilic isn't the same as saying I'm heterosexual because 'philia' and 'sexual' aren't the same thing. Philia means love of or attraction to, and it doesn't have to be a sexual attraction.

While admittedly there are slight etymological differences between "philia" and "sexual," (sorry Zen, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically...) I still think that "philia" has rather sexual connotations. "Pedophilia," for example, I think has set the connotations for the suffix "philia," and has given it erm... strong sexual connotations, regardless of its original meaning. So if you told the average idiot that you were gynophilic or androphilic, they would probably respond with something like, "Is there medication or therapy for that?"

I have the same problem with these terms as I do other obscure trans-related words (cisgendered comes to mind.) While they are fine and dandy for us to banter about on sites like this, they are useless in normal conversation and only serve to make us appear even stranger than people were expecting. Labels are great communication tools, until they splinter our diverse community into even more subgroups and require more explanation than simply explaining yourself from the beginning would have.

[Anthony Jake]

I was contemplating opening a new thread on this, but ill just post it here because its sort of to do with orientation and sort of to do with identity, i'm not really fully sure of what it is about..

All the alliances, groups etc tend to revole around GLBT now, because im bored and im thinking far too much for my head today, i have kind of come to a problem in my mind.. or a thought whichever..

Now, evidentally people can be gay, lesbian, bi, straight (plus a combination of many things) right? Everyone has some sort of sexual orientation, no matter how diverse.. So, surely in a way as much as these groups offer support etc they are also still a way of drawing attention to some that any other orientation other than hetrosexuality is 'different' from the way that society tries to make us.. as in, when we are born, from that instant we are raised specifically to be like our assigned physical gender. When people find out they're having a girl they think pink, when they find out boy they think blue.. so instantly we're being cloned to be a specific way ; to obide by the way in which society has catagorized us.

When people 'come out' in a way it is always taken as a statement, as wanting to be different.. why? Why should what were physically attracted to define us within society as being 'different', when really all we are doing is admitting to what we feel inside rather than shielding ourselfs from the judgement of society ; some people never admit to inner feelings for the fear of the way in which they will be viewed because of the way being a certain way had been percieved and portrayed by others and the media.. As we constantly try to make people see us as more 'normal' everything else is still trying to point out the differences.

What i dont quite understand is, why is it GLB *T* , surely being trans is different to being gay or lesbian or bisexual? I think, because it is not 'normal' for society to admit to these things openly and as acceptingly as it should it has all be grouped together.. we dont have support groups for straight people.. because no one see's the need for that, because it has been preconcieved as 'normal'. Obviousl, you can have trans people who are straight, trans people who are bi ..etc etc... so, could it not then be labelled into its own catagory rather than saying being trans was based upon sexual attraction and who one is attracted to which, by grouping it in with the sexual attraction identity groups surely it is? Because being trans does not define sexual attraction, however we wish to identify ourselfs we do not all have the same people which we are sexually attracted to. So being trans is not based on sexual attraction, therefore why is it labelled as so? :2c:

im hoping this isnt going to be taken in the wrong way, because it really isnt meant to be offensive to anyone.

[CaptLex]

I'm asexual and gynophilic, I'm attracted to women but not in a sexual way. Does that explain it well enough?
But I thought you loved me! :cry: :heehee:

Actually . . . yeah, that makes total sense to me. Probably because I have a friend who is asexual and he's been patient enough to explain a lot of stuff to me recently.

Here's something else I'd like to throw into the pot for ideas and opinions, which I was discussing with a gay friend recently, and which may be seen as another piece of the fluid gender identity/fluid sexual orientation spectrum (or maybe not?):

While gender identity and sexual orientation are separate issues, there is some overlap in that some cisgendered gay/lesbian/bisexual people are seen as "gender non-conforming" as much as some trans people are seen that way. In other words, specifically butch lesbians and effeminate gay men are seen as trying to emulate the opposite gender, instead of being seen as men or women who aren't comfortable with the macho, straight-acting or girly stereotypes. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Nicki B]

..Because being trans does not define sexual attraction, however we wish to identify ourselfs we do not all have the same people which we are sexually attracted to. So being trans is not based on sexual attraction, therefore why is it labelled as so? :2c:

I hope this isn't seen as a breach of netiquette, because it's suitably anonymised... Someone just said to me this:


I wonder, if "we the people" (any country) won't give acceptence and equal rights to Gay people, a "known" group of people, then how can CDs expect acceptence?

The answer to your question is not that we are necessarily similar - gender and sexuality are different, although in most of us, they overlap - but that we have to fight the same battles for recognition and acceptance?

It makes sense to do it together - united we stand, divided, we're much easier to pick off? :strugglin

[Cai]

While gender identity and sexual orientation are separate issues, there is some overlap in that some cisgendered gay/lesbian/bisexual people are seen as "gender non-conforming" as much as some trans people are seen that way. In other words, specifically butch lesbians and effeminate gay men are seen as trying to emulate the opposite gender, instead of being seen as men or women who aren't comfortable with the macho, straight-acting or girly stereotypes. Anyone have thoughts on this?

I don't know about effeminate gay men (you'd have to ask them), but the butch lesbians I know are certainly not trying to be men. In fact, they get pissed when people confuse them with men, no matter how masculine they look.

However, I also know that some people do feel that butch lesbians are trying to be like men. It's why people sometimes think that all lesbian couples are butch/femme - it's just two girls trying to "copy" the standard hetero format.

What people think, and what the reality is, are two different things. (Grammar bells going off, but you know what I mean)

[CaptLex]

I don't know about effeminate gay men (you'd have to ask them), but the butch lesbians I know are certainly not trying to be men. In fact, they get pissed when people confuse them with men, no matter how masculine they look.
That's my point, Cai. Femmy gay men don't want to be women, and butch lesbians don't want to be men, but (clueless) people think they do - which is why they may be or appear to be (in a sense) "gender non-conforming", when in reality they're just being themselves and behaving whichever way they're comfortable. (not sure my grammar was any better :p)

[bi_weird]

It seems to me that the grouping of trans with LGB is very natural, albeit unfortunate because many straight people (here I use straight to mean cis-gendre as well) get confused by it. I tend to want groups for queers, not some long acronym which invariably leaves someone out, where a queer is anyone who has to come out. We're one big happy family of people who would've had their a$$es kicked back in high school. We want a lot of the same things, and face a lot of the same problems. Within the community, of course, there are different needs for different identities, but the expectation is (although this doesn't always happen as I know many of you have found) that people in the queer community are more likely to be accepting and understanding than straight people.
But yeah, there are some straight people who are never gonna get it. Sometimes they're well meaning (I doubt my mother will ever understand that a femme gay guy and a MtF crossdresser are two different things. She's a wonderful person, but that's just too much out of her realm of experience.) but oftentimes they're not. The thing is, by living comfortably as ourselves, and being open to questions in safe situations, we're gonna convince people to think more about their preconceived notions and hopefully change some minds.
I really was going somewhere with this, but I've lost what I was gonna say next. Just assume it was insightful and fascinating...

[ZenFrost]

While admittedly there are slight etymological differences between "philia" and "sexual," (sorry Zen, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically...) I still think that "philia" has rather sexual connotations. "Pedophilia," for example, I think has set the connotations for the suffix "philia," and has given it erm... strong sexual connotations, regardless of its original meaning. So if you told the average idiot that you were gynophilic or androphilic, they would probably respond with something like, "Is there medication or therapy for that?"

I have the same problem with these terms as I do other obscure trans-related words (cisgendered comes to mind.) While they are fine and dandy for us to banter about on sites like this, they are useless in normal conversation and only serve to make us appear even stranger than people were expecting. Labels are great communication tools, until they splinter our diverse community into even more subgroups and require more explanation than simply explaining yourself from the beginning would have.

In the instance of pedophilia, yes it has sexual connotations. However, in many other instances it doesn't. The opposite of philia is phobia, gynophilia is a love of women, gynophobia is a fear of women. The same applies for everything from books to cats. If someone is a bibliophile people generally don't associate sexual connotations with that. From my experience, if people paid any attention in high school, they know that philia and sexual attraction are two different things. When I tell someone I'm gynophilic, I tell them it means attracted to women. I haven't run into any problems so far with that. One thing that helps is that phile and philiac sound different when spoken aloud. People are used to hearing pedophile, so gynophilic sounds different.

[Nicki B]

We're one big happy family of people

Would that that was always true.. :whistling:


I really was going somewhere with this, but I've lost what I was gonna say next. Just assume it was insightful and fascinating...

Tell me about it.. :roflmao:


if people paid any attention in high school,

Then they wouldn't attack paediatricians.... :rolleyes:

[ZenFrost]

I was contemplating opening a new thread on this, but ill just post it here because its sort of to do with orientation and sort of to do with identity, i'm not really fully sure of what it is about..

All the alliances, groups etc tend to revole around GLBT now, because im bored and im thinking far too much for my head today, i have kind of come to a problem in my mind.. or a thought whichever..

Now, evidentally people can be gay, lesbian, bi, straight (plus a combination of many things) right? Everyone has some sort of sexual orientation, no matter how diverse.. So, surely in a way as much as these groups offer support etc they are also still a way of drawing attention to some that any other orientation other than hetrosexuality is 'different' from the way that society tries to make us.. as in, when we are born, from that instant we are raised specifically to be like our assigned physical gender. When people find out they're having a girl they think pink, when they find out boy they think blue.. so instantly we're being cloned to be a specific way ; to obide by the way in which society has catagorized us.

When people 'come out' in a way it is always taken as a statement, as wanting to be different.. why? Why should what were physically attracted to define us within society as being 'different', when really all we are doing is admitting to what we feel inside rather than shielding ourselfs from the judgement of society ; some people never admit to inner feelings for the fear of the way in which they will be viewed because of the way being a certain way had been percieved and portrayed by others and the media.. As we constantly try to make people see us as more 'normal' everything else is still trying to point out the differences.

What i dont quite understand is, why is it GLB *T* , surely being trans is different to being gay or lesbian or bisexual? I think, because it is not 'normal' for society to admit to these things openly and as acceptingly as it should it has all be grouped together.. we dont have support groups for straight people.. because no one see's the need for that, because it has been preconcieved as 'normal'. Obviousl, you can have trans people who are straight, trans people who are bi ..etc etc... so, could it not then be labelled into its own catagory rather than saying being trans was based upon sexual attraction and who one is attracted to which, by grouping it in with the sexual attraction identity groups surely it is? Because being trans does not define sexual attraction, however we wish to identify ourselfs we do not all have the same people which we are sexually attracted to. So being trans is not based on sexual attraction, therefore why is it labelled as so? :2c:

im hoping this isnt going to be taken in the wrong way, because it really isnt meant to be offensive to anyone.

The whole LGBTIQQ thing seems weird to lump together to me. The LGB and QQ might fit together, but the T and I are different. I think whoever coined the term thought it would be a good idea to put every minority that has to do with sex, sexual orientation, and gender in one big group. On one hand, it really bothers me that so many LGBT groups add the T but don't do anything for it. They have LGB support but not much for T. And even if they did, LGB issues are a whole different ballpark than T issues. The concept of coming out is some big and important step for most LGBs but for a Transexual post transition, coming out often isn't a goal at all. I wouldn't want everyone to know that I was born female. I'd tell the people closest to me, but I wouldn't be openly trans.

BUT on the other hand, there's a legal side of things that the grouping makes sense. If you've been following the news, democrats are trying to get anti-discrimination rights for LGB people, but they've dropped the T. Many LGBT groups are fighting this.

So on one hand it doesn't make sense to have the T in it when LGB issues are often so different, but on the other hand all LGBT people should be working together to fight for our rights. I thing Transgendered people should fight for Gay rights and Gay people should fight for Transgender rights. We should work together on this.

[Nicki B]

it really bothers me that so many LGBT groups add the T but don't do anything for it.

But so few of us get involved - is it surprising? How much do you know about what matters to intersex people? :hmmm:

[CaptLex]

ACE!!!! :jumping: Nice to see you here, man! :D

Sorry for the interruption, folks . . . please carry on. :blush:

[Tobie]

*blinks* There's another Canadian FtM? And nobody told me?!?

[CaptLex]

another problem is that gay men are never portrayed as "bad" characters... this makes them seem different, not like normal people... where are some cool gay villains?? (especially for those who might have a hankering for bad boys, huh LOL)
Oh man, I guess you're right - I can't think of one! :p The closest I can come up with off the top of my head is Capt. Jack - though he's not gay (but he is femmy) and he's not much of a villain, really - just an opportunist. :happy:

Yes, we need gay bad boys. :D


*blinks* There's another Canadian FtM? And nobody told me?!?
Okay, I'll confess . . . I've been hiding Ace in my cabin (didn't want anyone else having access to those lips), and I guess he finally escaped - must have found that nail file I keep under the mattress.

[Tobie]

I'm allowed to get giddy gayboy about knowing, seeing it typed and not just alluded to, another FtM in Canada makes me feel better among them Americans and UKers.

[Albtraum]

Mercy on me! I need a strong shot of rum after reading all these posts. I'm just the token straight guy (ahem, cough,cough-sorry, bad joke) here precisely because I wanted to know what the T in GLBT is all about.

Most heteros understand GLB, but yes, the trans world is a major mystery. There are SO MANY variations and our poor heads are reeling. I'm not just talking about the homophobes either. You ladies and germs are so fluid (as a group) that it is like trying to grab a handful of morning mist.

Most straights I know think that a butch Lesbian 'wants' to be the man and an F2M is just taking it one step further. The same goes with the effeminate gay male and the M2F CD'ers. That's a generalization, but most of us only know the most superficial outward appearances.

I know that a lot of str8 guys like to watch girl on girl action because a) the female body is always fascinating to us, and b) they are imagining themselves in between them:o. Ergo, the man on man thing is 'icky'. They are not turned on by another man's body, nor do they wish to be in on it. I hope I have explained this right without offending anyone.

What hetero women think, I don't presume to know. Drat it all.:p

Labels aren't essential, but they do give a person a general impression. So label=good and label=bad, like most things in the real world there are many shades of gray between black and white.

O.K., I'll shut up and drink my rum now, I've probably teed off everyone equally, but walking on eggshells isn't any fun either. I'm going to have to reread this thread several times and let the many perspectives soak in gradually.

Thanks and peace to all.

[ZenFrost]

*blinks* There's another Canadian FtM? And nobody told me?!?

Happyfish is in "Eh" country too.



Sally touched on exactly what came to my mind....men LOVE to see two women in a porn video (whatever definition you use that's not a hetrosexual relationship sexually) but would freak out if suddenly the video featured two MEN engaged in sex with each other....WRONG WRONG WRONG they'd scream ! Oh give me a break guys...be CONSISTANT !

True, many men do love to see two women together. But the opposite is also true. Many, many women LOVE to see man on man action. Perhaps even more than the men who like lesbians. There's an entire industry of porn type materials featuring gay men that is geared specifically towards women.

[dhampir]

Was Jean Genet a 'gay bad boy'? If so, there is a nice long book devoted to him by Sarte.

[AmandaM]

To American society at large, an MTF CDer is still a "faggot", usually worth pummeling, an FTM is a "dyke", not usually pummeled but still ostracized.

A TV is either bi, straight or gay, irregardless of the clothes.
A TS is by definition straight if MTF and likes men, or if FTM and likes women. This is because the body/identity matches the sexuality.
Someone between TV and TS is more difficult. I think it depends on the extent of cross-gender identity. If more TV with a little bit of confusion, more than likely the old definitions apply. If more TS in identity, then the mirror applies.

[Nicki B]

To American society at large, an MTF CDer is still a "faggot", usually worth pummeling, an FTM is a "dyke", not usually pummeled but still ostracized.

Is there just one 'American society'? Or is it more just down to where you live?

[Lisa Golightly]

Shake it or take it... If it sends a shiver then its all cool to me.

[christina marie]

dunno, maybe i have been doing a little growing up, but attraction based solely on physical appearance or attributes, just seems so shallow anymore... the more i settle into myself, the more the lines of sexual orientation become blurred. havent met anyone in a long time that really gets me hot.( 'cept Lovely Lisa of course :D) i think that a wonderful personality would do more for me now than all the looks in the world, and i dont really think gender (physical or emotional) would be a factor!

[Valeria]

What i dont quite understand is, why is it GLB *T* , surely being trans is different to being gay or lesbian or bisexual?
Others have touched upon this, but the reason why T is grouped with LGB is that we are all perceived as not being heteronormative by society, and we are all subject to discrimination (and worse) based upong that perception.

As has been mentioned, femmy gay men and butch lesbian women are often perceived as being gender non-conformists (or even as being trans in some cases), and they do get discriminated against on that basis. Similarly, trans people are often perceived as being gay. There are numerous instances of trans women being assaulted by people calling them faggots and the like.

So ultimately, we are natural allies (as are the genderqueer, queer, and questioning people that are sometimes included in the alphabet soup). And yes, it'd be simpler to just call us all queer, but some LGBTGQIQ people object to being labeled as "queer".

[Valeria]

I've been reading the umpteenth thread in the MtF section about whether it's "bad" or incorrect to label crossdressers gay. It's a never-ending discussion there, with people commenting on all sides of the issue, and it made me wonder why it doesn't seem to be much of an issue with us. I'm guessing it might have to do with the difference between most FtMs and MtFs.
I agree, but I think that my reasoning is somewhat different than yours.

There are far more male-bodied "crossdressers" partly for sociocultural reasons.

The fact is that a male that wears any exclusively female garment is perceived as a crossdresser, whereas females have to dress pretty much entirely in male clothing before getting considered a crossdresser (and even then, not necessarily - no one I know in real life considers butch lesbian women that wear masculine clothing crossdressers).

Ironically, the increased social stigma associated with males wearing female clothing probably contributes to the number of males that feel a need to do so. Also, the higher testosterone levels in males do tend to contribute to higher sex drives, which does tend to contribute to higher degrees of fetishistic behavior.

So I think that there are a lot of reasons why MTF crossdressers are far more common, and it's hard to say what the results would be if we changed some of these factors.

When the crossdressers are removed from the mix, I don't see such a difference. I can't recall ever seeing a thread on whether or not it's "bad" to label MTF people as gay on a more ts-specific forum. Honestly, it wouldn't even have occured to me to ask the question. More than half the women on the forum I post at most frequently are lesbian, bisexual, or otherwise queer-identified, and a lot of them are queer activists, so it's almost a meaningless question. I proudly march in the dyke march during gay pride week.

However, the homophobia associated with being perceived as gay is certainly dangerous, and it contributes to hate crimes and discrimination against non-passable trans women.


In other words, it seems a lot of FtMs do not identify as crossdressers - and there may be a larger diversity in our group: bi-gendered, genderqueer, TG, TS, and people born female-bodied who don't quite feel female, but don't attach a label to themselves.
Within the MTF spectrum, there also seem to be a lot of bi-gendered, genderqueer, TG, TS, and people born male-bodied who don't quite feel male, but don't attach a label to themselves. Some people who were originally male-bodied see their gender as very fluid. Some believe that they are a "third" gender, or reject binary gender. Others, not so much.


Anyway, my point is that our group here (which I believe is representative of transmasculine people everywhere) doesn't seem to have much of an issue with sexual orientation, other than to occasionally question whether we may be open to switching teams.
I see lots of discussion among trans women about what their orientation is, or whether or not they are switching teams. But no one has an issue with it - they are just trying to figure it out. I've also participated in some similar discussions with cisgendered women.

Now maybe we women do care more about labels. I don't know. I'll admit that I tend to be very interested in subjects like gender, queer theory, and feminist topics - and so are a lot of my cisgendered girlfriends. But then, I've met several trans guys at discussion groups about such subjects at a feminist book store, so I'm not so convinced that it's just us women that care.

I think your belief about the transmasculine group here is the real key. This forum is not (IMO) representative of transfeminine people everywhere. The vast majority of the MTF that post here are crossdressers, or at least once considered themselves as such. On rare occasions (I know of at least 3, counting myself), a trans woman will hear that there is a forum for transsexual people here and will wander over to see if she can contribute (but most don't stay long). In general, I'd say that very few male-bodied genderqueer people and transsexual women ever even look at this forum - the name makes it sound irrelevant, and we are used to having our voices drowned out by crossdressers whenever we share a space with them.

There are a *lot* of types of voices I never hear here, and the topics have remarkably little in common with certain other forums. I'd be real skeptical about anyone making any generalization about trans women and queer male-bodied individuals with gender issues based on this forum.


Also, Trey and I had a discussion recently about how fluid gender and sexuality are, and the numerous combinations that can come about because of this. Aren't we limiting ourselves if we apply sexual orientation tags to ourselves also? Isn't there an almost limitless combination between all the different gender roles and forms of attraction?
That's all true, but I think that there are a lot of trans people (not just women) for whom their gender and sexual orientation is not that fluid, and they identify pretty exclusively with one of the two traditional genders. So for a lot of us, the traditional labels really do work well.

Also, many people go through genderqueer phases as part of transition, and then later realize that they are becoming more comfortable in one of the traditional gender identities. The most talented trans woman feminist writer that I know of has written that she thought of herself as genderqueer at one point, and she was actually very out and proud about being genderqueer, but she's since become much more conventional in her outlook. I've heard variations on that story more than once (I myself went through a phase of my life where I considered myself genderqueer).

[gennee]

I think that many men confuse gender and sexuality. Gender and sexuality can be fluid as it is my my case. My gender has been much more fluid. I think there diversity in both FTM and MTF but it more natural with the former.

Gennee

:happy:

[CaptLex]

Aren't we limiting ourselves if we apply sexual orientation tags to ourselves also? Isn't there an almost limitless combination between all the different gender roles and forms of attraction?
That's all true, but I think that there are a lot of trans people (not just women) for whom their gender and sexual orientation is not that fluid, and they identify pretty exclusively with one of the two traditional genders. So for a lot of us, the traditional labels really do work well.
Okay, that's fair. I just wonder if a lot of us limit ourselves because we think we have to fit into one side or the other - not exclusively with gender identity, but also with regard to sexual orientation, as it relates to our gender identity. I wasn't really thinking in terms of genderqueer when I wrote that, but mostly about the possibility of being more open to different sexualities based on which "gender role" (for lack of a better term) we're more comfortable with. Hope I didn't lose you there. :p


Also, many people go through genderqueer phases as part of transition, and then later realize that they are becoming more comfortable in one of the traditional gender identities. The most talented trans woman feminist writer that I know of has written that she thought of herself as genderqueer at one point, and she was actually very out and proud about being genderqueer, but she's since become much more conventional in her outlook. I've heard variations on that story more than once (I myself went through a phase of my life where I considered myself genderqueer).
I'd like to ask you for your definition of genderqueer - only 'cause I think different people use it differently. Personally, I identify as mostly male, but not 100%, but I don't like the term genderqueer for myself as I don't think it really applies to me. Just wondering how you define it. Or maybe that should be a topic for a whole other thread. :raisedeyebrow:

[Stargirl]

I think we should do the things that bring us the greatest pleasure. (without being harmful). Personally, I find it almost impossible to define my sexuality in standard terms. I DO have a male side. I find myself attracted to a Person. Genitalia : not a major focus. My best pleasure "tool" has been my soul, and mind. Genitals are servants, not masters. (at least in my book). People find me odd. I don't worry about that. I like what I like, and have the right to change directions at any time. So many people will never "get" it. I thought that I was a lesbian during the teen years, because I was attracted to "butch" girls, and I thought I was a gay male inside, because I was attracted to feminine guys. I also found myself getting giddy (good giddy) over crossdressing males, and pretty straight women, or women who dressed as males. But for different reasons. No way could I ever reveal this to most people back then. Pariah time, right ? Mrs. "Snicklebody" would have a field day gossiping about me as I walked to school.

I take the best route that I have at the moment. I just BE. And extend respect to those who respect me. I am now 60, but feel 40. In a way, I am going thru another teen phase, it feels like.

[CaptLex]

I take the best route that I have at the moment. I just BE. And extend respect to those who respect me. I am now 60, but feel 40. In a way, I am going thru another teen phase, it feels like.
Nice post, Stargirl, welcome to the forum and thanks for your input. Would like to know a bit more about you - please do a intro post in the New Members section so we can get to know you a little better. :happy:

[Joanne f]

I think that there are so many different reasons why males cross dress so you are going to get some that will be offended from being called gay and when to take into account that it is usually meant as an insult if some one calls you gay, don`t ask me why as i don`t know, i have been called gay many times so it doesnt bother me now.
I know very little about Transmasculine things so please forgive me if i say the wrong thing as i am willing to learn from you all ,i know you do not want to be thought of as women and i would like to make it clear that i am not doing that but i am just wondering if it seems to be more acceptable in the general public`s point of view for a female to be Bi or Gay that it do`s for a male so there seems to be less witch hunting for females that want to dress and act like males, but saying that i think it is probably far more difficult for a FtM to be accepted by their family than it is for a MtF.
And as far as i am with my gender i can only say that i have not got a clue and sexual orientation about the same.
I think some where in my head i can also see why some TS don`t like to be thought of in the Cd thing because of this gay name calling but i am still working on that one, mind you i think you might think i have not done much work on the above but it is all a journey for me , ok going now before i drop myself in the pooy stuff.

joanne

[Valeria]

I think some where in my head i can also see why some TS don`t like to be thought of in the Cd thing because of this gay name calling but i am still working on that one
Well, speaking as one TS, I've very openly a gay woman.

I don't like to be thought of as a "crossdresser" because I'm a woman, living and dressing as such. To call me a crossdresser is to fail to respect me as female.

If I were to go out as a drag king, then I'd be crossdressing.

[Valeria]

I'd like to ask you for your definition of genderqueer - only 'cause I think different people use it differently. Personally, I identify as mostly male, but not 100%, but I don't like the term genderqueer for myself as I don't think it really applies to me. Just wondering how you define it. Or maybe that should be a topic for a whole other thread. :raisedeyebrow:
I think that's a seperate thread. I recently went to a panel discussion on genderqueer, and they took 10 minutes trying to define "genderqueer" (and weren't entirely successful, IMO). As you say, it's a slippery term.

FWIW, I would not consider you genderqueer - at least, not unless you told me that's how you identify.

I don't think that merely having some elements of the other sex/gender makes you genderqueer, especially since I'm not big on stereotyping. At the genderqueer discussion I mentioned earlier, one woman identified herself as genderqueer despite a fairly typically female presentation (which is fine, gender isn't just about presentation). But when she tried to explain what made her genderqueer, she said things like she had a "warrior spirit", which really offended me and a lot of the women present - I found it very dismissive of women and very role-confining for her to imply that merely having a warrior spirit made you something other than a woman. I'm not saying she'd wasn't genderqueer (and I'd use gender neutral pronouns to refer to her, but she seemed okay with feminine ones), I'm just saying that I wasn't very happy with that explanation.

I think that my liking sports or your liking to cook (hypothetically speaking) wouldn't make us genderqueer in the least.

Though apparently, my liking sports is expected, because I'm lesbian ( :rolleyes: ), so perhaps I need a better example.

Anyway, given how much I tend to object to the definitions of being TS that I see offered by non-TS people, I'd really rather not try to be the first one to define genderqueer.

[Joanne f]

Well, speaking as one TS, I've very openly a gay woman.

I don't like to be thought of as a "crossdresser" because I'm a woman, living and dressing as such. To call me a crossdresser is to fail to respect me as female.

If I were to go out as a drag king, then I'd be crossdressing.

I respect you what ever you are and i would like to think that you also respect any one else what ever they are but i think that where the problem can be is unless some one pulled down they panties it could be hard to judged what they are so the wrong labels can some times be put on people by mistake and not disrespect.
This is a Transmasculine thread so i do not want to disrespect them by taking this any further (sorry to be blunt)


joanne

[CaptLex]

I know very little about Transmasculine things so please forgive me if i say the wrong thing as i am willing to learn from you all,
That's cool, Joanne, that's all we ask.


i know you do not want to be thought of as women and i would like to make it clear that i am not doing that but i am just wondering if it seems to be more acceptable in the general public`s point of view for a female to be Bi or Gay that it do`s for a male so there seems to be less witch hunting for females that want to dress and act like males,
In my experience, I would say it's probably about the same. All my life I've had people avoid me or look down on me because they assumed i was lesbian or because they thought I didn't accept my "place" as a female - obviously, not very enlightened or accepting people.


but saying that i think it is probably far more difficult for a FtM to be accepted by their family than it is for a MtF.
I couldn't say, but I'm guessing it's probably about the same there too, Joanne. I know both FtMs and MtFs that have accepting people and non-accepting people in their lives - family, friends, co-workers, etc.

[CaptLex]

I think that's a seperate thread. I recently went to a panel discussion on genderqueer, and they took 10 minutes trying to define "genderqueer" (and weren't entirely successful, IMO). As you say, it's a slippery term.
Yeah, I also think a separate thread would be a better idea.


FWIW, I would not consider you genderqueer - at least, not unless you told me that's how you identify.
Cool . . . :thumbsup:


I don't think that merely having some elements of the other sex/gender makes you genderqueer, especially since I'm not big on stereotyping. At the genderqueer discussion I mentioned earlier, one woman identified herself as genderqueer despite a fairly typically female presentation (which is fine, gender isn't just about presentation). But when she tried to explain what made her genderqueer, she said things like she had a "warrior spirit", which really offended me and a lot of the women present - I found it very dismissive of women and very role-confining for her to imply that merely having a warrior spirit made you something other than a woman. I'm not saying she'd wasn't genderqueer (and I'd use gender neutral pronouns to refer to her, but she seemed okay with feminine ones), I'm just saying that I wasn't very happy with that explanation.
Yeah that doesn't make sense to me either. :p


I think that my liking sports or your liking to cook (hypothetically speaking) wouldn't make us genderqueer in the least.
Agreed


Though apparently, my liking sports is expected, because I'm lesbian ( :rolleyes: ), so perhaps I need a better example.
Haha, or my liking to decorate - but that's only 'cause I'm a gay boy. ;)


Anyway, given how much I tend to object to the definitions of being TS that I see offered by non-TS people, I'd really rather not try to be the first one to define genderqueer.
Well, you can tell me about when you considered yourself so - if you'd like - so I can understand your thinking then.

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

This is perhaps off-topic and random, but on a form recently, I was asked what my gender and orientation were. I answered:

gender: FtM
orientation: Debatable

:p

[Kieron Andrew]

This is perhaps off-topic and random, but on a form recently, I was asked what my gender and orientation were. I answered:

gender: FtM
orientation: Debatable

:p

my usual comment to orientation is no comment, or N/A as most of the time its no ones business

[ZenFrost]

This is perhaps off-topic and random, but on a form recently, I was asked what my gender and orientation were. I answered:

gender: FtM
orientation: Debatable

:p

That's a good answer, I should try that sometime. :smilep:

[MinaB]

Absolutely not. I've gone from straight to bi to semi-gay back to bi and now back to straight and including MtFs, or as I like to call it, trans-lesbian. I don't even bring up who I "go for" anymore because it's so fleeting. The only thing I ever find important in going out with someone is "can I see myself with this person?" and that usually takes a long time to decide. I'm very picky :P

[Valeria]

Well, you can tell me about when you considered yourself so - if you'd like - so I can understand your thinking then.
If you (or someone) starts a thread on this, I'll try to participate (time permitting - school starts back up soon).

But in all honesty, my "genderqueer" phase was a long time ago, so my memory of what I really thought at the time is somewhat hazy. Oh, and I was an idiot back then when it came to gender topics. Anyway, I don't think I was ever really genderqueer - I think for me it was just a coping technique that I used for a while (for various reasons, which I'd be happy to discuss, but probably more in private).


I respect you what ever you are and i would like to think that you also respect any one else what ever they are but i think that where the problem can be is unless some one pulled down they panties it could be hard to judged what they are so the wrong labels can some times be put on people by mistake and not disrespect.
I'm referring more to word usage in online forums like this one (where it's not at all hard to find posts and threads referring to TS people as "crossdressers").

I'm not too concerned about what I'm called in person. I've never been called a CD in real life - all of my coworkers, classmates, etc, just assume I'm a natal female.


This is a Transmasculine thread so i do not want to disrespect them by taking this any further (sorry to be blunt)
I don't think this is necessarily a gender-specific conversation. Trans people (men and women) wear clothing that is congruent with their gender identity and eventually (in many cases) their phenotypical sex. I certainly know trans guys who would view putting on a dress as crossdressing, whereas wearing men's clothing is just dressing in accordance with their gender.

[kerrianna]

Oh, can I stumble around here too? :heehee:

Let's see....where to start? This thread has kind of wheeled all over the place like a car with summer tires on a snowy slope (hey, that's the definition of my life! :eek:), so maybe I'll just throw a couple of pennies in.

I'm going through a Questioning with a capital Q phase right now, so that means I'm putting things to my forehead and seeing what sticks.

The issue of sexual orientation is certainly one of them. I probably would have described myself earlier in life as a hetero-male who was bi-curious. But as I recognize more about my gender identity and gain a clearer idea of the real kind of person I am, I realize that what I considered to be bi-curious is more an expression of what I now see to be my 'hetero-female' side. In some ways I'd say I am actually a hetero-female who was bi-curious. I'm also pondering the concept of being 'pansexual', because in some ways that describes me better. Although I'm not sure if I would include a male-male attraction as part of my thinking, so I'm not sure if that would make me pansexual.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexuality

Now the fact that I can consider a romantic or sexual attraction to men, while I am still perceived by most of the world as a male, may lead the average person to label me as gay. I don't identify that way, primarily because my interest in men is strictly from my hetero-female identity. But most people won't understand that. Most people dont understand transgenderism at all, let alone bisexuality. It is a heteronormative world.

As far as the difference between FTM and MTF labelling and concern about it, I believe a lot of it comes from good old fashioned patriarchal homophobia. I think what it really boils down to on an elemental level is power.

Men who would lord power over their gender peers call 'weaker' males 'gay', 'queer', 'homo', 'girl'!:eek:...as if all those identities makes you a weak and conquered man.

FTMs are raised with an acute awareness of the power structure and learn to operate to the best of their abilities in it. I think they need to learn inner strength and self belief early, because it's pretty obvious that there is a glass ceiling EVERYWHERE. I do notice a difference in approach between the average MTF and FTM. The FTMs are generally more stoic and quietly determined. The MTFs are often more nervous and excitable. I think this all comes from our backgrounds in this patriarchal heteronormative society.

I know for myself that growing up as a 'weak' male has lead to me to be hyperaware of how much a target I appear to the power males in the society. Whether I am gay or not, am female or not, am TG or not...sometimes it doesn't matter. It's all ammunition for abusive people.

I'm not saying FTMs dont have similar fears, I think they are better at supporting each other and have learned ways to move through the world more quietly. Not that they want to remain quiet. :p


And I AM a crossdresser. I still put on guy clothes for the rest of the world. You'd think they'd label me queer for that. Fortunately I still pass as a guy ok, judging by all the sirs and misters I get :rolleyes:. But I am getting more and more WTF looks so I guess my CDing skills are getting worse. :p

Hahaha...I'm not MTF...I'm WTF!
(now that is a good description of genderqueer maybe)

[DanielMacBride]

Hahaha...I'm not MTF...I'm WTF!

:heehee: I LOVE IT!!! :D I am not FTM - I'm just a TMF (tough mother...) ;)

Well said kerrianna, your point about the way we are raised is very true and I have to say I have also made the same observation about MTFs being more nervous and excitable and the FTMs being more stoic and supportive of each other (no brickbats anyone please!! It's just my own personal observation from my own personal experience) and I have to agree it has a LOT to do with how we are raised and how society sees us and what that heteronormative society expects and teaches us.

Daniel

[Lanore]

I say we break out the rum.

Lanore

[Kate Simmons]

Wow, a lot of big words on this thread. Actually, Kez's WTF sums it up for me. The key to to get above society's programming which most of us are doing and the power of communication is amazing. In my case, I'm no longer de-powered by being a MTF CD. If someone tries to down grade me by calling me some "name", it only makes me stronger and it's a win/win situation for me. The beauty of all of you folks here is that you are pure gold.:thumbsup::happy:

[charllote34]

Hi alll my first post in your little world. Ok this is a great thread and in reply to a comment about how differant it is from being from the uk thats just pants !! i have travelled all over the world and people are people no matter where they come from .America like the Uk is a free country and i see nothing in the uk that forces people to act in a certain manner , in fact the more you try and control people the more they rebel!
Right Sexuality .Its interesting how many MTF are hetrosexual , Speaking from personal experiance i enjoy all the male aspects of my life and i enjoy sticking my painted toe into the female side of life from time to time .I certainly prefer to be with GG than men i feel more comfortable round girls always feel like men are some kind of a threat weird i know just how i feel .I feel certain that most MTF feel like that would be interesting to know how many FTM ( this is confusing!) like male sports and male things and whats the percentage that are straight i.e sleep with genetic males and prefer the company of men to women

[Valeria]

I feel certain that most MTF feel like that would be interesting to know how many FTM ( this is confusing!) like male sports and male things and whats the percentage that are straight i.e sleep with genetic males and prefer the company of men to women
A lot of the FTM individuals who post here are male-identified trans men, and so being sexually attracted to men would make them gay, not straight.

Though part of the point of this thread is that some people don't want to be confined by such narrow labels...

[Kieron Andrew]

A lot of the FTM individuals who post here are male-identified trans men, and so being sexually attracted to men would make them gay, not straight.

Though part of the point of this thread is that some people don't want to be confined by such narrow labels...

Exactly Kehleyr.....although some of us Identify as straight MEN too, i do!

[charllote34]

Hi Ace , thanks for the kind reply!! I meant a female to male crossdresser .I am a straight male that crossdressers and i am interested if there is female version of this , Re sports i was talking from a male point of view , do any FTM go to the footie ( soccer) how many watch males playing sports the same way i would in drab .How many hetrosexual women crossdress the same way that i would . Please i am not here to judge and i would share a pint with any of you ( or some rum!) just nice to meet different people , its what makes life fantastic !
Hugs to you all charllote xxxx

[kerrianna]

Exactly Kehleyr.....although some of us Identify as straight MEN too, i do!

:battingeyelashes:...I know. :daydreaming:


...here, I'll save you the trouble....

:eek: Carol!!! :heehee:




Charllote, you'll find what you refer to as a FTM crossdresser a rare species here and elsewhere on the net. This has been discussed on many other threads as to why, but most people who identify as FTM here and elsewhere I have found to self-identify as either male or genderqueer or genderquestioning. Maybe the best way to look at it is to think of the MTF CDers here who do identify as hetero males who like to crossover as being more in their own special class. And I think that's primarily because of the restrictions, self and otherwise, that men are under currently with the way they feel free to express themselves.

That special MTF CD class is however the predominant make-up of this site, hence the name crossdressers.com

The fact that there is room here for gender variant people is due to the makeup and desires of the people on it, from staff to members. Hopefully that fosters understanding and compassion from everyone involved.

As far as watching sports, etc... I think a lot of gender stereotypes are enforced by society. I disagree that men are from mars and women are from venus. We're far more alike and often just get steered in directions because of our assigned gender. And cultural things dictate a lot. Ace is right. Hockey is a very popular sport among women in Canada. But when I watch UK 'footie' I do notice there are not a lot of women in the stands. I've never been at a game there, but I bet a lot of the reason is because women aren't made to feel welcome or safe for the most part. I notice when I watch games on TV from smaller parks in the UK that there are more women and families.

And now I've taken this way off topic.

What were we discussing again?

Oh yeah.

SEX!

Sex and sports.

....
Maybe I should just slip quietly away now.

:shifty:


:heehee: (talk about perpetuating gender stereotypes):rolleyes:

[charllote34]

Thanks for that reply most eye opening , the best thing with this site is learning about you all so thanks for that .Re footie would say it is a lot of males watching it , but families do make up a percentage now ie mums and dad s and kids.The truth is its so expensive to watch soccer these days not a lot of families can afford it !! Off topic sorry :devil::hugs:

[Kate Simmons]

Hmm, All I know is the guys here are all good looking and have great personalities. Hard to find that in one spot anywhere else. Works for me anyway.;):battingeyelashes:

[CaptLex]

Hi alll my first post in your little world.
Welcome, charllote! We like visitors, especially open-minded ones that ask questions and want to learn, rather than those that assume they know what we're all about. So feel free to ask away, we don't bite . . . too hard. ;)


I feel certain that most MTF feel like that would be interesting to know how many FTM (this is confusing!) like male sports and male things and whats the percentage that are straight i.e sleep with genetic males and prefer the company of men to women.
I couldn't give you statistics about sports but as some have already pointed out, a lot of these supposed "male" things really aren't limited to men. For example, there are plenty of genetic females at work that get together to play "Monday morning quaterback" - that is, to discuss the (American) football games they watched over the weekend. Also, I know genetic women that are very handy with a tool belt and can change their own oil, etc. So I imagine FtMs are just as interested or disinterested in these things as the rest of the general population.

As for sexual orientation, as others have also pointed out, those of us that identify as transmen and not crossdressers generally consider ourselves gay if we're attracted to men. I don't know exact numbers there either, but I've heard estimates that approximately 50% of us are straight (that is, are attracted to women), about 30% are gay (like myself) and the remaining 20% fall into other categories such as bi, pansexual, asexual, etc.

Hope that helps. :happy:

[charllote34]

Hey Capt !!

Thanks for that you have answered my question well and can i wish you and all the other boys a fantastic new year and all the best for 2008
Hugs and love Charllote xxxxx:hugs:

[Felix]

Ok here is my :2c:Worth. I keep trying to ignore this thread but I feel now I am going to try to answer it. It shouldn't matter what or who we are but it does unfortunately cos society has deemed it so.The majority of my friends are gay men and my circle seems to be increasing. Yesterday I met someone who was the friend of a friend and we got talking about gender and sexuality, everything you can imagine. The issue of my difference came up and the friend had thought me a bloke as soon as he saw me until I opened my mouth lol but all credit to him he calls me Felix and says thats how he knows me. I tested my thoughts on whether what sexual orientation you was mattered as he had said that difference didn't matter to him.

I said, "Ok you say difference doesn't matter could you be with someone like me?" Answer straight away, "No."
I asked, "Why you said difference didn't matter?"
Answer, "Because you haven't got a penis."
Point proven so although people say difference doesn't matter whether it be sexual orientation or gender to most it does matter I would think.

I have been pondering the question of sexual orientation for a while now and I think all these labels cause too much trouble if we could just see ourselves humans who might or might not be attracted to one another lol in an ideal world of course, it would be so much easier. I just find life so complicated with all this stuff I seem to be attracted to gay men and them to me but I don't see myself as a gay man I see myself as a very multifaceted individual which complicates things really but it's something I will work out over time. I know right now I don't wanna be labeled at all I just wanna be Felix that's good enough for me xx Felix :hugs:

[Fab Karen]

I can speak for here in the U.S. ( hopefully things are getting better for kids these days )- at least til now our society has pushed a rigid definition of what a man is supposed to be, while for women things over time became more fluid. It says quite a lot that the base definition for men is supposed to be: not like a woman. Men who enjoy other men, according to this silly definition, are "being like a woman" which is "not manly"- which really means, having lower status than. So to be called gay is to "be like a woman" ( probably where the association of mtf cd's being gay comes from ) and is an insult to some men. In reality it's an insult to women.
"I'm not supposed to be attracted to someone with a penis, someone who looks masculine, not supposed to be attracted to someone with a vagina, someone who looks feminine" these are made up "rules" & people would be happier throwing them out. I personally know it's not easy to throw off the programming we got growing up ( coming to the realization I'm pansexual didn't happen overnight ) but as the song goes,"I gotta be me.":happy:

[Joanne f]

I can remember reading somewhere that some psychologist said that if we all forgot about what we have been brought up to think ,most would be Bi.
Now wouldn't that make life a lot easier :heehee:


joanne

[CaptLex]

I can remember reading somewhere that some psychologist said that if we all forgot about what we have been brought up to think ,most would be Bi. Now wouldn't that make life a lot easier :heehee:

joanne
It would double our chances for a date Saturday night, at least. ;)

[Joanne f]

It would double our chances for a date Saturday night, at least. ;)

:D don`t know why but that just made me think of the bit in the crocodile dundee where he checked the ladies bits :happy:


joanne

[Ashley Williams]

I cross-dress but am not gay - and deal with the assumption that I might be gay as just one of a list of false impressions people might get about me.

For me, the dressing is part of a difficulty defining myself in conventional terms that goes way beyond what I wear.

In so many ways I appear not to conveniently tick easy boxes - and up to now that has largely been a strength. Only since I have told my wife about the dressing has she appeared to suddenly decide that everything that is unconventional about me is bad!

This does make life more difficult than it need. I understand why people like shorthand definitions - it makes everything much clearer without the effort of thinking too hard.

All the Best

Lesley

[Nicki B]

.... you know my friend once called a VCR "gay" when she really meant "stupid" ... I mean how could an inanimate object have an inherent sexuality??? :bg: just doesn't make sense...

Sadly, 'gay' as a term for 'bad' has become increasingly widespread, particularly amongst kids at school..

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6656.html

[Taylor105]

Sadly, 'gay' as a term for 'bad' has become increasingly widespread, particularly amongst kids at school..

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6656.html

I know and that's a bout the most stupid thing I have ever heard. So now when I'm around one of my nieces who loves to use that term I say "Oh Destiny! That's sooo straight!" When she says something is so gay. haha Gets her every time.

[ZenFrost]

Sadly, 'gay' as a term for 'bad' has become increasingly widespread, particularly amongst kids at school..

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6656.html

It really bugs me when my friends use it like that, I always tell them not to but it just seems like it's mainstream lingo to use 'gay' as a really negative word. :rolleyes:

[bi_weird]

It really bugs me when my friends use it like that, I always tell them not to but it just seems like it's mainstream lingo to use 'gay' as a really negative word. :rolleyes:
Yeah that always bothers me...and now I'm in the awkward position that this senior grad student says it like that, and I'm afraid to tell her that I find it insulting. Ugh.

[Stephanie Anne]

So many born as men are raise to fear being attracted to the same sex. Homophobia is drilled into us. We are not supposed to share intimacy with anyone who does not have a uterus. Becasue of that we have such big hangups about sexuality. We also see the gay community as an extreme. we see it as a forced expression of taste and choice more than a natural progression toward not being uptight little missionary children.

My best friend and I started talking about these topics, she is attracted to gay men and was wondering about the hangups people have over what is feminine and what is masculine. She always gets tagged as sir and has learned to just brush it off.

One thing lead to another and we got to talking about if I could ever find a man attractive.

My thoughts are I could easily fall in love with a man just as I could a woman. I have no sexual desire for a man however but if it happened I would love and enjoy it all the same. I just do not see the restrictions we have as valid. Oh do not get me wrong, I was raised very strict and still have a guilty feeling in the pit of my stomach about sexuality (curse you bible thumpers!).

What I seem to be trying to get to is that the feminine culture is so very less uptight about intimacy while the masculine is all about repression. Of course it also seems more women get offended by transwomen than men do. It always gets me when a woman gets freaked out that a man like to feel like a woman too.

I think there is also the whole stigma that so many of use carry baggage that is easily interpreted or even misinterpreted as why we do what we do.

we try and run around categorizing and justifying our "conditions" instead of just accepting it and not making a big deal out of it. Too bad so many not of the like mind get so bent out of shape that we are deceiving them that they hate us simply because we exist. And here is where I stop my soap box.

Love to all my sisters and brothers here :)

[CaptLex]

Thanks, Viktoriya, you give me hope that maybe homophobia can be "cured" in my lifetime. :Pray:

[Samson]

Interesting thread :thumbsup: Apologies for my leave of absence, my reali life has been getting in the way of my internet life :mad:, tsk.

Discussions about gender and sexuality will be never ending because it is all very fluid and therefore it is wrong to put any individual into any one box - but sadly it happens.

My Specialist at the Gender Clinic summed it up very succinctly when she said "Gender is in the head, sexuality is between the legs" and that is pretty much it. To that end, it comes down to the person and no two people will ever be the same and we all have varied likes, dislikes, preferences (whether that be sexuality, food, clothes, music etc.).

Unfortunately people will always make detrimental assumptions when they are ignorant of facts. The most important thing in gender and sexuality is to be true to yourself and how you feel - when people criticise or label us wrongly, that is their failing and stereotypical attitudes.

[Nicki B]

Yeah that always bothers me...and now I'm in the awkward position that this senior grad student says it like that, and I'm afraid to tell her that I find it insulting. Ugh.

Bi, try calling her 'Vanilla' now and again... :winking:


Of course it also seems more women get offended by transwomen than men do. It always gets me when a woman gets freaked out that a man like to feel like a woman too.

Eh?? I've always found it hugely the opposite - it's the men that make a big deal about it? And I've found no problems with either, in Vegas? :strugglin

See the comments here (http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/natacha_kennedy/2008/01/by_natacha_kennedy_via_bw.html)? Note it's all the men getting uptight about which toilets (US = restrooms) get used - the genetic women are completely unfazed about it.... :roflmao:

[Leo Lane]

Our society is more uptight and rigid about sexual preference than a lot of others are and have been. It's not really necessary, in many cases, to pick one side of the fence. It's not even necessary to have a fence!

Personally, I get kind of annoyed when even the scientific literature says that "virtually all [FtMs] will receive the specifier Sexually Attracted to Female". I'm FtM, but I'm a homosexual guy -- that is how I feel. I'm kind of an old-fashioned homosexual, though. Conventional heterosexuality leaves me cold, but so does much of modern homosexual culture -- the cruising and the gay bars on the one hand and the middle-class monogamy on the other. The current male homosexual ideal of beauty is positively repellent to my taste. That's why I call myself homosexual, not gay; as far as I'm concerned, to say 'I'm gay' is to identify oneself with modern Western homosexual mores, and I don't. I have very little real-life experience, but certainly the books and films which I find most closely express my own homosexual feelings tend to be from a while back -- the Forties, Fifties, Sixties, Seventies. See my avatar, for instance.

[StephanieT]

Many men are intigued by a bisexual women but put-off by a bisexual man. Go figure!

maybe the intrigue is because of a fantasy many men have of a 3some.

[mylilsecret8]

Hello All. I'm fairly new here and just wanted to say that this is an amazing thread and I have learned so much. Although I have been crossdressing in some way or the other most of my life (I was born male) I admit I am very naive to other people's experiences.

Regarding sexual orientation and gender identity, I can only speak for myself. Most of the time I dress and appear male but most days try to satisfy my feminine side by wearing womens panties or secretly wear nail polish on my toes. Occassionally I will wear skirts and dresses but mostly when dressed femme I wear womens pants or tops in what I call my Tom Boy look.

I consider myself slightly bisexual because I have a much stronger preference to women and usually am only occassionally attracted to genetic men when I am dressed femme. Funny thing is I am EXTREMELLY attracted to TransMen and very Girlie Genetic Women. Don't ask me why because I don't really understand it myself, since they are at the two ends of the spectrum. My personal experience, is most genetic women find MTF crossdressers semi interesting but most are not attracted to it at all which makes it pretty discouraging to meet someone since the only people who have shown an interest in me are gay men.

I look forward to learning from all of you!

[CaptLex]

I am EXTREMELLY attracted to TransMen and very Girlie Genetic Women.
Nothing wrong with that, but I have a question for you, um . . . don't know what to call you . . . Lil? . . . Secret? :idontknow:

How do you see transmen? In other words, as male? Female? Somewhere in between? Just wondering. :raisedeyebrow:

[mylilsecret8]

Nothing wrong with that, but I have a question for you, um . . . don't know what to call you . . . Lil? . . . Secret? :idontknow:

How do you see transmen? In other words, as male? Female? Somewhere in between? Just wondering. :raisedeyebrow:


Hi Capt Lex - Sorry, I forgot to sign my name. You can call me Allie.

Good question. I guess I see people as either masculine or feminine and in the back of my mind I see their birth gender as either male or female. So someone who looked masculine, presented themselves as a male I'd consider them male. But if either they told me they were born female or something led me to believe they had, I guess to be honest I'd file all of that away, along with other characteristics that make them who they are. Does that make sense?

Allie

[CaptLex]

Hi Capt Lex - Sorry, I forgot to sign my name. You can call me Allie.
Nice to meet you, Allie. :welcom:


Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think you answered my question. So you see us as guys who were born female, right?

BTW, your answers sound like mine - might be why I got that. :heehee:

[Nicki B]

Just an observation I throw in, for comment - maybe particularly for MTFs, although you guys please feel free to shoot me down...


Many of us girls transition and stay attracted to girls, although it's by no means certain - it seems fewer start off attracted to men, but once you start taking hormones, you can never tell how you'll come out the other side.. Indeed once you start hormones, many girls seem to go through a phase when they'll jump virtually anything? (Even a broom... err....
:hiding: )

So, given that a large number of girls end up still liking girls, surely it is no surprise that many of the FTMs here identify as gay?

I hope that seems obvious to you guys - but I wonder if it is for many of the girls here??




Of course there are still always those with an incurable leg fetish (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77152)... :rolleyes:

[Kieron Andrew]

Just an observation I throw in, for comment - maybe particularly for MTFs, although you guys please feel free to shoot me down...


Many of us girls transition and stay attracted to girls, although it's by no means certain - it seems fewer start off attracted to men, but once you start taking hormones, you can never tell how you'll come out the other side.. Indeed once you start hormones, many girls seem to go through a phase when they'll jump virtually anything? (Even a broom... err....
:hiding: )

So, given that a large number of girls end up still liking girls, surely it is no surprise that many of the FTMs here identify as gay?

I hope that seems obvious to you guys - but I wonder if it is for many of the girls here??




Of course there are still always those with an incurable leg fetish (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77152)... :rolleyes:Actually ive been wondering about this lately, as a few of the boys who have started to transition have expressed that they 'could' possibly go for someone that is outside the norm of their sexuality pre-transition...ie Trey has never had an inclination for GGs, but the more he become comfortable within himself the more he is open to the suggestion of it....Lex has also said he is now more open to suggestion within his sexuality too

I myself have NEVER been into GMs at all, but have wondered once i start on the road to Transition with hormones whether this will change or not, ive always preferred the sexiness of the female form, be that GG or TG....if its pleasing to the eye then i like it....men are too drab to me :p but maybe that will change....i wouldnt ever rule out FtMs...but at this point in time definitely not GMs

But you are right Nicki is seems a great proportion of FtMs like the boys, and those of us that like the girls is a minority, but then as 'she' i did the whole id as lesbian thing to hide the trans status

As for my incurable leg fetish! can you blame me for liking a well dressed pair of legs ;)

[mylilsecret8]

Nice to meet you, Allie. :welcom:


Yeah, I think you answered my question. So you see us as guys who were born female, right?
:

Capt Lex - Oh yes, I definately see you as guys...but as new and IMPROVED! :D I'm not very passable and it seems most people view me as a guy in a dress even if I have full makeup from the salon.

Nicki B - You described it perfect. I also am very attracted to the female form, so much I want to experience it too.

It does seem a lot of MTF are not into genetic males. For me, I never was in the past but a lot of times they are the only ones who pay me any attention and the attention does make me feel feminine so I think that has led to extra curricular activities. But I couldn't imagine ever falling in love with a genetic male.

I'm curious if anyone else is attracted to both ends of the spectrum like me? For example, I'm attracted to Genetic Females and FTM Transmen?

[CaptLex]

I'm curious if anyone else is attracted to both ends of the spectrum like me? For example, I'm attracted to Genetic Females and FTM Transmen?
Yeah, Allie, there's plenty of transguys who are into boys and girls and/or transboys and transgirls. For a lot of people, it's more important to have a connection to the person inside than the window dressing on the outside.

Nicki, it's been my experience that most transguys are attracted to women, but there's enough of us that are attracted to guys or both, or a combination, or even none of the above.

It's a common misconception that all transguys are into women exclusively, and that all transguys identified as lesbians at one time. It's true of many, but not all. :happy:

[Cheryl Ann]

I am not attracted to men but fantasize about being a woman with a man. Strange?

[CaptLex]

I am not attracted to men but fantasize about being a woman with a man. Strange?
Not strange in this place. ;)

Take a seat, the nurse will call your number. :heehee:

[Cai]

I'm curious if anyone else is attracted to both ends of the spectrum like me? For example, I'm attracted to Genetic Females and FTM Transmen?

Well, I'm sort of opposite, but the same thing. I've mostly been attracted to feminine (cis/trans) men (think Legolas from LOTR, etc). However, the occasional girl that gets me is usually very masculine (one friend that I've had a bit of a crush on is a genderfluid drag king, to give you an idea). So I definitely understand where you're coming from.

[Cheryl Ann]

Not strange in this place. ;)

Take a seat, the nurse will call your number. :heehee:

Thanks CaptLex!

[deja true]

I am not attracted to men but fantasize about being a woman with a man. Strange?

I acknowledge having this fantasy, CherylAnn. And if they are honest, so would virtually all MTF CDs no matter how much they protest to their SO's that that doesn't happen.

If we really want to experience femininity, then we also want the complete range of feminine experience. So the fantasy must come to the surface. For me, the clue to the honesty of the sexual attraction, though, is in the vision of the fantasy. When I close my eyes with this fantasy, there's never a recognizable face to the man. He's not anyone I know or have seen on the street or magazines. He's a sex object, pure and simple. I'm after the experience alone, not a personal relationship with a man. When I fantasize about women, there's always a face, usually someone I know.

I'm not attracted to GM's at all, no matter how Brad Pitt-ish or (who's that other guy?) Johnny Depp-ish they look or behave. But now you've got me thinking on it, I've come into contact with quite a few FTMs recently for the first time and something about their fierce and proud attitudes and knowing that they've travelled extensively on the 'gender mind map' somehow attracts me to them. Don't know if it's sexually or philosophically, though.

respect & love,

deja

Started reading this thread from the beginning yesterday, but it's so dense, I have to keep coming back to it. Thanks for starting it.

[Nicki B]

..no matter how Brad Pitt-ish or (who's that other guy?) Johnny Depp-ish

:hiding:

Now you've done it... :rofl:

[CaptLex]

:hiding:

Now you've done it... :rofl:
Haha, that's okay, Nicki. One less Johnny admirer works in my favor. :bs:

[deja true]

Haha, that's okay, Nicki. One less Johnny admirer works in my favor. :bs:

Ooops! Didn't mean to trash anybody's favorite fantasy bedmate. I wouldn't even think about getting serious with either of those two guys for a mill...well,um...er...


Anyway, what would they see in a hairy old bitch like me anyway!

deja


Back to topic, people!

[CaptLex]

Ooops! Didn't mean to trash anybody's favorite fantasy bedmate. I wouldn't even think about getting serious with either of those two guys for a mill...well,um...er...

Anyway, what would they see in a hairy old bitch like me anyway!
But if you run into him, you'll introduce me, right? :winkp:


Back to topic, people!
Yes . . . or it's the brig for you. :tongueout

[deja true]

Only if we can work a swap with Angelina or Johnny's chica! (And you get the kids!)


Mmmm..lips!



Now come on Lexie, back to the table and finish your dinner or mama's gonna spank!

[Nicki B]

Will you two get a cabin? :rolleyes:

[CaptLex]

Now come on Lexie, back to the table and finish your dinner or mama's gonna spank!
Uh oh . . . somebody found the rum! :p

[Cheryl Ann]

I acknowledge having this fantasy, CherylAnn. And if they are honest, so would virtually all MTF CDs no matter how much they protest to their SO's that that doesn't happen. ...

I've come into contact with quite a few FTMs recently for the first time and something about their fierce and proud attitudes and knowing that they've travelled extensively on the 'gender mind map' somehow attracts me to them. Don't know if it's sexually or philosophically, though.



deja true, I also admit a strong attraction to FTMs.

[Leo Lane]

True, many men do love to see two women together. But the opposite is also true. Many, many women LOVE to see man on man action. Perhaps even more than the men who like lesbians. There's an entire industry of porn type materials featuring gay men that is geared specifically towards women.

That's quite correct, and very often overlooked. There are loads of women who love to write and read 'slash', which I think means man-on-man (fan)fiction. Because they're women it's more about reading and writing than about the visuals and more about romance than about sex.

[Valeria]

FWIW, I'm exclusively lesbian and so is my mate - and we both have issues with body hair, and prefer feminine women. But we do like to joke about "lesbianish" actors that we wouldn't kick out of bed - and Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom both make our top 5 list of "guys we'd play with, as long as they've waxed their chests and legs beforehand". :)

For that matter, I like some butch women, and I think a lot of drag kings are sexy. I think a lot of trans girls are sexy too.

On the other hand, drag queens do nothing for me, and I don't know any men in real life to whom I'm even remotely attracted. The only people I've ever met in normal life that actually turned me on were other women. Orlando Bloom is cute, but the person in the LOTR that I *really* like is Liv Tyler, and as nice as Johnny and Orlando are in the Pirates movies, I'm afraid they have to take a back seat to Keira Knightley. Antonio Banderas is welcome to come to our house to read poetry (or the phone book - I don't really care what he reads, I just want to hear his beautiful voice with that lovely accent) - but he has to keep his clothes on. So there are limits to my flexibility...

[Valeria]

I am not attracted to men but fantasize about being a woman with a man. Strange?

I acknowledge having this fantasy, CherylAnn. And if they are honest, so would virtually all MTF CDs no matter how much they protest to their SO's that that doesn't happen.

If we really want to experience femininity, then we also want the complete range of feminine experience.
As a lesbian woman, I'm not thrilled with the implication that a woman must have sex with a man to be complete.


I'm not attracted to GM's at all, no matter how Brad Pitt-ish or (who's that other guy?) Johnny Depp-ish they look or behave.
I'm almost the exact opposite - Brad Pitt is quite pretty, and Johnny Depp may be the sexiest man alive (he's quite cute in the Tom Petty music video he made when he was younger, too). But I'm not the least bit interested in sexually "being a woman with a man" with any man - not even in a fantasy, and not even if he's just some faceless abstract representation of a man.

[CaptLex]

Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom both make our top 5 list of "guys we'd play with
Noooooo . . . they're mine, all mine!! :tongueout


as nice as Johnny and Orlando are in the Pirates movies, I'm afraid they have to take a back seat to Keira Knightley.
Nah honey, she's very pretty, but when the boys are on the screen, it's "Keira who?" :heehee:

No contest then, you take Keira and I'll keep the boys. ;)

[Tree GG]

Actually, this site can be fun. Where else could I bash males & hit two or more social groups at one time? :GD::stirthepot:

IMO, sexual orientatin in the MTF group is such a big deal because of the M in MTF. It occupies their thoughts way more than average.

[waspookie6]

I dunno Tree - the F I got slapped with from birth has been a struggle and it isn't just me.
As they say, birds of a feather...so the few female friends I have, we all have been and will be more 'male' oriented than female though we try to 'fit'. And of course our hormones fluctuate more often or maybe there hasn't been enough study on that for MtF? hmmmm

It has occupied my thoughts since I can remember. "Little girls don't do that" and such was so confusing for me. It still is. There are truly only a few years in my life I've felt "female", the rest, never ending pondering but life happens daily and so it goes. My 'sexual orientation' was lucky - the predominate years of sexuality was during the 80's when it was all the fad to dress the opposite sex and act like it, seemed no one gave much mind to it (at least not in LA anyway). Now I'm older and don't give much a flip because the ones that would care are too young for me anyway ;)

[Leo Lane]

About the slash thing: I've just been watching the cast interviews on the Merchant Ivory DVD edition of Maurice (it's an excellent film about male homosexuality in Edwardian England, based on E. M. Forster's even better novel) and all three of the film's main actors apparently got loads of letters about it from Japanese girls. Rupert Graves says, no doubt correctly, that they "liked watching three pretty boys run around". Apparently that sort of thing is all the rage in Japan; schoolgirls read comic books about male homosexual love affairs.

[Andine]

Only read the first page so far , but wanted to say this.

At my age I have reached the attitude where I assess each individual I meet against some of my internal values, and as a result the frienship meter goes on or off. These values are ones to do with the old values of Honor , Truth, Worth ( not financial ), Intelligence is also atractive, as are a few other factors. It has nothing to do with colour, or sexual persuasion. I don't want to change people ... I want to enjoy the company and exchange views and frienship. If people have a problem with me ... it is their problem and not mine.
They just need a glass of Rum!

At the sydney Mardi gras I met a couple of gentlemen from Frankfurt and we have started conversing by Email. They are obviously very Gay, and I was Dressed at the restaurant. Their last email contained a group of photos of a well endowed and muscly young male .... for my enjoyment ..
.. I have returned a presentation of some stunning female bodybuilders! We will see where this goes!

Its good tongue in cheek stuff ..... The fact is I am comfortable with having gay friends and they seem comfortable with a CD friend.

Here we all are with the waitress who is straight. ( I think )
All good fun!

[CaptLex]

I want to enjoy the company and exchange views and frienship. If people have a problem with me ... it is their problem and not mine.

They just need a glass of Rum!
Well said . . . that's my philosophy in a nutshell. :^5: :drink:

[Andine]

They have been quiet ... I hope I didn't upset them .... The body building women are a bit over the top!!

I will see what happens ... I might have to send them a pic of a local footballer or something, to make amends!

regards .... ( I like Grand Marnier too )

[mylilsecret8]

I'm watching the movie "Set it off" and Queen Latifa is playing the sexiest transman!! He is so masculine and I can't believe how attracted I am to his character and he definately sets off something in me to make me feel very feminine.

The overall story line is ok but to be able to watch this very sexy man makes this a movie I'll be watching many many times in the future. :daydreaming:

[Kieron Andrew]

I'm watching the movie "Set it off" and Queen Latifa is playing the sexiest transman!! He is so masculine and I can't believe how attracted I am to his character and he definately sets off something in me to make me feel very feminine.

The overall story line is ok but to be able to watch this very sexy man makes this a movie I'll be watching many many times in the future. :daydreaming:

She didnt play a Transman, she played a butch lesbian....

[SirTrey]

She didnt play a Transman, she played a butch lesbian....
***headdesk*** Great, now I have a concussion! <<sigh>>

[ZenFrost]

I'm watching the movie "Set it off" and Queen Latifa is playing the sexiest transman!! He is so masculine and I can't believe how attracted I am to his character and he definately sets off something in me to make me feel very feminine.

The overall story line is ok but to be able to watch this very sexy man makes this a movie I'll be watching many many times in the future. :daydreaming:

:doh:


She didnt play a Transman, she played a butch lesbian....

:yt: There's a pretty huge difference.

[Leo Lane]

Yet more on the slash thing: there is quite a number of women who write about male relationships by preference. Mary Renault, for example, described male homosexual emotion in her novels so convincingly that many people thought her a homosexual man -- though that example's kind of muddied because she was bigendered. Look, then, at Marguerite Yourcenar, who had a lifelong lesbian relationship and wrote with great tenderness, sympathy and understanding about male homosexuals and their loves; and at Rosemary Sutcliff, who though not particularly masculine wrote novel after novel about male warriors, their battles, their stiff upper lips and their intense friendships -- note that in this case they were non-sexual but deeply felt friendships between heterosexual men. I should even perhaps include Susan Cooper, who in her children's novel King of Shadows described with much feeling the love between a fatherless boy of eleven or twelve and a father in his thirties whose son had died at the same age (incidentally, the man's Shakespeare) and whose novels demonstrate a keen appreciation of the androgynous qualities of boys.

[Nicki B]

Here we all are with the waitress who is straight. ( I think )

Nah... She's definitely curvy.