I don't get it, are ******** TS's?

[AmandaM]

It seems weird to me. They're women, yet they have their "bits". They are like transsexuals, but then, they're not. What's the deal? Are they transsexuals who choose to keep their bits? They're certainly not CDers. Is it just a sexual thing for them? It seems like they are not on the so-called gender spectrum that measures from TV to TS. Can you explain this? Thanks.

[MonikaW]

I think they are transsexuals. They are just pre-op. They are on hormones and have had implants too. I think most do intend to go through with the GRS and are just on the path to full transition. The adult entertainment industry can be lucrative, and I think the term 'she-male' was coined by it. While some stay in a pre-op state permanently, I suspect that many do go on to have the full surgery.

[Cai]

Some transwomen choose to remain non-ops. As you put it, I believe they are "transsexuals who choose to keep their bits". It's not a position I pretend to understand, but just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it's any less valid.

[Maggie Kay]

Sadly, the average wage of a transwoman is very low and many lose their jobs two or three months after they transition. This forces many to consider the seedy side of life and ******** are part of this. Tranny fanciers love this kind of porn or sex so there is a market. I would not really consider them as anything other than performers in the sex trade. Who can really say what their personal lives are like? What serves as normal for porn stars too for that matter?

[Marla S]

It seems like they are not on the so-called gender spectrum that measures from TV to TS. Can you explain this? Thanks.
Well where's the problem ?
A CD that dreams about looking like a woman.
A CD that looks like a women but doesn't want to have HRT
A CD that dreams about HRT and plastic surgery (Forum is full of such threads).
A CD that eats tons of herbals to grow a B-Cup.
A CD that has implants.
A CD that starts HRT but stops again(for several reasons)
A pre-op TS that needs money for SRS and for a living (after SRS there would be the need to find a new job).
A pre-op that is too afraid of the surgery.
A pre op that feels just fine like it is. There are some that refer to themselves as non-op TS and like it that way.

For me it makes perfectly sense and does fit well in the gender spectrum and it was even a "big deal" in ancient greek
(http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/jwss/bath2004/images/Louvre%20Hermaphrodite%2002.jpg)

BTW: What kind of sites are you visiting ???:eek: ts,ts,ts,:D

[DianaGomez]

Whatever it is, I feel sorry for them. I have no trouble with them at all but its a very touchy subject on this board. Apparently they are looked upon as 2nd rate citizens (according to lenghtly discussions I've read here before)
While purporting to be very tolerant, even amongst TG's it is not the case. If someone wants to be and stay pre-op, it appears they must be seedy adult entertainers. Not the case I dont think.
I would love to go all the way, but unlike others, I am not willing to sacrifice career, very comfortable life-style, family, kids, social life (which I would have to) to do so. So if that means a pre-op existance, I can live with that. Not as good as the other but still acceptable.
To each his/her own. Lets respect each others preferences and choices. If someone wants to stay pre-op, good for her/him!!!! If they want to go all the way, yippee! No trouble there. And even if they want to do adult movies, well, I wont but you are welcome to.

[Cai]

Sadly, the average wage of a transwoman is very low and many lose their jobs two or three months after they transition. This forces many to consider the seedy side of life and ******** are part of this. Tranny fanciers love this kind of porn or sex so there is a market. I would not really consider them as anything other than performers in the sex trade. Who can really say what their personal lives are like? What serves as normal for porn stars too for that matter?

Just because someone is a non-op doesn't mean they're necessarily a sex worker. The word "*******" is mostly used in the sex industry to denote someone who is non-op, but that doesn't mean all non-ops work there.

There's nothing WRONG with being different from the mainstream. You'd think on a site like this people would understand that.

[Katrina]

Apparently they are looked upon as 2nd rate citizens (according to lenghtly discussions I've read here before)

Uhhh...in most circles, ALL of us are considered 2nd rate citizens...

[Stephanie Anne]

Uhhh...in most circles, ALL of us are considered 2nd rate citizens...

I second that emotion! Just look at how they left us high and dry withthe enda bill :(

******* to me is a horrid term due to its connotations

You have to admit however that most of them look amazing, I just wonder at what cost...

[Maggie Kay]

The term ******* is not used here to describe ourselves.I have only heard it in terms of the porn industry. I was then referring to a career choice not a minority.

[AmandaM]

Oh, I see. ******* is an entertainment term. Someone who keeps their bits is a non-op TS. Duh.

[brylram]

Hmm, I'd only ever heard the word '*******' used to describe people born with mainly female bodies, and male genitalia. It's interesting to hear that it's used in other ways as well. But I don't think I'm very fond of it, no matter who it refers to.

[Sejd]

Does the cross around a persons neck maker them a Christian?
A woman with a prayer rug - is she a Muslim?
A married man who sleeps with men, is he a real Gay person???
What kind of box thinking are we embarking on here?
Why do you need to have that answer, that's what I would like to know.
Sejd

[Melissa Davis]

I think I would like to have real breasts and real hips and maybe a little more fat on my legs. I would dress 24/7. I would want to keep me equipment though as I love how I am in that way. Admittedly though, this is just a fantasy of mine.

Honestly I don't see anything wrong with getting a natural femme look and keeping all your equipment. If someone does this and they feel good about who they are, then I think that's great. I also think that for that person, it's really no one's buisness what is under the skirt.

Just my thoughts. Am I wierd?

[Nicole]

Not weird at all.

Trans-ness comes in many degrees. For some people it's all about what's between their legs. Others, it's the face. Still others, the emotions. Or any number of things. *shrug*

Ultimately, it's about feeling comfortable with yourself. Whatever works for you, works for me. :)

[Kate Simmons]

Not weird at all.

Trans-ness comes in many degrees. For some people it's all about what's between their legs. Others, it's the face. Still others, the emotions. Or any number of things. *shrug*

Ultimately, it's about feeling comfortable with yourself. Whatever works for you, works for me. :)My sentiments exactly Nicole.:happy:

[Kieron Andrew]

ok i wasnt gonna answer this but i will...

my take on the subject is.....******** decide to have surgery be in breasts or facial surgery but retain their penis because they still identify as male and do NOT identify as female....but want female breasts

Pre-op TS identify as either female or both genders, and chose NOT to have surgery for many reasons, some reasons maybe that they can not have surgery for health reasons, or as i said they identify as both genders so want to retain the male anatomy

[AmandaM]

Does the cross around a persons neck maker them a Christian?
A woman with a prayer rug - is she a Muslim?
A married man who sleeps with men, is he a real Gay person???
What kind of box thinking are we embarking on here?
Why do you need to have that answer, that's what I would like to know.
Sejd

Because I am somewhere between TS and TV, similar to ********. I wanted to see if I have anything in common with their motivations. I know when I see them, I am jealous. :heehee:

[Joy Carter]

******* = Sexworker That's the long and short of it.

I don't disrespect them. Just wish for what ever reason why they do it, that they would find their way out of it.
I hear they have a higher rate of STD's, compaired to even female sexworkers.

[MarinaTwelve200]

It seems weird to me. They're women, yet they have their "bits". They are like transsexuals, but then, they're not. What's the deal? Are they transsexuals who choose to keep their bits? They're certainly not CDers. Is it just a sexual thing for them? It seems like they are not on the so-called gender spectrum that measures from TV to TS. Can you explain this? Thanks.

That "TV to TS gender spectrum" thing is bogus---at least in terms of crossdressing.

Truth is there are SEVERAL DIFFERENT spectrums for several families of gender/sexual and identity conditions. like parallel worlds, etc.

To an escapist CD, for instance, (like me) who CDs to get away from his own self for a while, the idea that he is on a linear spectrum from transvestisim to transsexualisim seems absurd.

There MAY be a linear progression to full blown TS, but even the "low end" of it where the person CDs only, there is a Transsexual identifying with women or a "fem side" element there.----still a different track than escapist CD.

SM/humiliation based CD may also have its own spectrum as might thrill seekers, etc.

Indeed I have reason to beleive that even BISEXUALITY is a unique sexuality condition that may not be on the Hetro/homo spectrum.

I think ******** ARE transsexuals, but those who are "comfortable" somewhere near the middle or 3/4 the way down on a TS spectrum (not tv/ts) But then again we KNOW that transsexuals CD almost all levels.

[Cai]

******* = Sexworker That's the long and short of it.

I don't disrespect them. Just wish for what ever reason why they do it, that they would find their way out of it.
I hear they have a higher rate of STD's, compaired to even female sexworkers.

That's only because the word "*******" is mostly used within the sex entertainment industry. The person it is used to describe is a non-op, and non-op =/= sex worker.

[ToyGirl]

I think Kieron was the closest to the mark here.

While they remain a mystery to everyone though I have met people who reffered to themselves as ******** I think they just chose there label poorly.

If anyone has seen ******** in video they generally have breast implants and there genetils are fairly good working order. Im sure any TS who has been on the hormones awhile can agree things don't actually work the same anymore.

Ive heard of people becoming ******** for the money (though I ponder the truth in that)

So being a ******* is all about looking as female as possible without losing there male function. Were talking FFS, hair removal, Implants and anything Feminising op you can think of. no Doubt some good old Estrogen but I doubt they take T-blockers. If all else fails theres viagra..

When i was younger I didnt understand why anyone would stay pre-op but now I realise preference, money, health, and waiting for techniques to improve plays a big part in it.

[Cara Allen]

When i was younger I didnt understand why anyone would stay pre-op but now I realise preference, money, health, and waiting for techniques to improve plays a big part in it.

I am of the same thoughts. I am going to transition as far as possible, but have no plan to SRS... at least at this time. It is expensive, and in the end is not that big a thing (smile) when the rest is done. It has been said that the SRS thing is like icing on the cake. By the time you are ready for that, it just doesn't matter that much any more... Most have been living full time for years, and things like FRS are more important to having a happy life.

Sexually, there are lots of guys interested in us, with or without SRS. Thank goodness for the internet. We have arrived!

Cara

[wishonastar]

******* and maybe Ladyboy are sex industry terms. They get into it because of loss of job, low self esteem and still with male hormones and a male libido.

Transsexual and Trangender groups find the term offensive.

It is really sad many transsexuals get into porn and prostitution to survive. Lost of job, family and support and home has a way to mess you up so you end up hanging around with people in the same boat. I doubt there is a person in the industry that did not have a “friend” that got them their “break into the movies”.

I do not believe one say they do not want SRS or do want SRS. I am sure most get SRS when they can afford it and get out of the industry. I have not seen any surveys on this even if you can get the truth from them.

Money corrupts and there is lots of money in the adult industry, so getting out is not easy, take a fraction of the income for a 9 to 5 job slaving for someone!

[Anthony Jake]

ok i wasnt gonna answer this but i will...

my take on the subject is.....******** decide to have surgery be in breasts or facial surgery but retain their penis because they still identify as male and do NOT identify as female....but want female breasts

Pre-op TS identify as either female or both genders, and chose NOT to have surgery for many reasons, some reasons maybe that they can not have surgery for health reasons, or as i said they identify as both genders so want to retain the male anatomy

I actually agree here, when i used to live in York there was a MtF up there who called himself a *******, he used male pronouns still dressed as a woman, but called himself a *******.. he said because he liked his male genetalia, but wanted also a female body he would classify himself as both, and that is why he called himself as *******... because thats what he was in his eyes..
Im sure some who identified as ******* would disagree just as some would agree..
Just saying from what I heard.

[tori-e]

Over the years I've known two transwoman that consider themselves ********. I believe they think of it as an occupation. One had some pretty fancy ads in the local papers. Both suffered from lack of employment and turning tricks is quite profitable. One has returned to it because she believed that should could fund all of her surgeries in maybe a year. For her it will include GRS. Where flipping burgers it will never happen. The bottom line is they are TS prostitutes that are pre-op. They both take hormones and one had augmentation.

As for hormones affecting performance. I've been on hormones for two years and have been at 400 MG spiro and 6MG Estrace for over a year. There is a bit of size reduction and things are not so quick to respond. But all still works.

Terri

[MarciManseau]

I'm totally full time and I'm never going back, yet I doubt I'll ever have surgery other than possibly breast implants. I have no need to have things removed as I totally pass now, and my gf and I both love how I am. "Tina" (aka Tiny) :tongueout and the girls give us both much pleasure.


Tori: sounds just like me :)


Marci :hugs:

[LilKimmiCD]

I'm pre-op, and have no plans to take it any further. It's just not realistic for my own personal situation. Does that make me any less feminine in my thoughts, or feelings? I think not.
As Popeye the sailor said, " I ams what I ams"! Guh, guh, guh, guh!..lol! I'm not a *******, nor a sex worker. Far be it from me to pass judgement on anyone else for the choices they choose to make. That is their right, and I respect that.
I have enough problems in my own life to deal with. Live and let live works for me.

Love, Kimmi

[Cai]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but the last part of this quoted reply had me saying "Are you serious?". Pre-op those guys are only interested in the penis (speaking of MtF's). Speaking for myself I have to say I couldn't date when I was pre-op, it messed with my head too much.

And post-op you're in a whole different arena folks. You have a whole new set of problems. Most centered on whether you tell or not, and when. From my limited experience, and reading about others experiences, 95% of men can't handle the news. Whether it's insecurity, homophobia or something else. But then again I don't want somebody like that anyways.

So pre-op they like you because you have a penis.

And post-op they don't like you because you used to have one.

It's really a no-win situation. I hope I find one of those 5% (that see me as the woman I am), but I know the odds aren't good.


In my opinion we have most definitely NOT arrived yet.

Not true, not at all. The guys that can deal with dating a post-op transgirl are often just as cool with a pre-op WOMAN. They're interested in you because you're a woman. Gay men don't have sex with transwomen - they like MEN. The guys that are open-minded enough to accept you as a woman should be able to do it whether or not your bits match the rest of you.

[Cai]

I guess you haven't heard of "chasers" have you? And I know there are gay guys who have relationships with pre-op gals because they are in denial about the fact that she intends to transition (I knew someone in just this predicament). These relationships inevitably break up. Also, yes, some good men can be found, but they are far outnumbered by the chasers.

One thing that probably skews my perspective is my age. I'm in my mid 40's. Younger men probably have fewer hang-ups.

Of course there are chasers out there. But there are also straight men who will date pre-op or non-op TS women, because they see them as women.

But of course YMMV. And anyway, if you choose to believe that no one will love you because of your physical characteristics, fine, but I'd imagine you'll be very unhappy.

[GypsyKaren]

Of course there are chasers out there. But there are also straight men who will date pre-op or non-op TS women, because they see them as women.

There's also guys out there who will date a coconut if they had the chance. Straight guys as a whole won't touch a pre-op unless it's with a baseball bat, trust me on that.


And anyway, if you choose to believe that no one will love you because of your physical characteristics, fine, but I'd imagine you'll be very unhappy.

I have to disagree here too, Jane's just being realistic. There's "physical characteristics", and there's "physical characteristics as a transitioning transsexual", and they're two very different and distinct things, walk a mile in our shoes and you'll see it.
There's exceptions to every rule, but it's something you can't expect or count on, it's a lot easier to buy a winning lottery ticket while getting struck by lightning.

Karen Starlene

[Cai]

I'm really not trying to stir anything up here, I hope people realize that.

But I am in your shoes. I'm a gay man trying to get other gay men to find me attractive, while lacking major features that gay men like. And I have to hold out hope that I will find someone that can move beyond the physical, because otherwise, I might as well just give into the depression and become a loner. I want a partner, and I want to adopt someday. For me, life alone would be worthless.

I'm not saying that's true for everyone, but it's true for me. If I really felt like no one would ever love me for me, I'd go crawl into bed and never get out. Life just wouldn't be worth living in that situation.

[GypsyKaren]

I understand what you're saying Cai, and I sure do hope you find that someone, but you can't compare what gay men have to go through with what transsexual women do. In my experiences, the only men who wanted a pre-op were gay or bi and wanted a man to be presented to them, not a woman. Yes, there are the chasers, but they have their own agenda that I want no part of. I'm not talking out of my hat here, I stick my head out the window before I tell you what's the weather like...you take care.

Karen Starlene

[Kieron Andrew]

There's also guys out there who will date a coconut if they had the chance. Straight guys as a whole won't touch a pre-op unless it's with a baseball bat, trust me on that.
Not strictly true to generalise Karen, i know many straight men that would date a pre-op TS, who see them as the women they are, who are correcting a birth defect and of course will have the 'correct equipment' after surgery...im one of those straight men!, who would no problem seeking out a pre-op TS to date and HAVE done, but as we are talking GM's here as i said i know quite a few that seeked to date TS woman and are willing to wait for them to have the surgery, its not uncommon over here thats for sure....

[Stephenie S]

Both Karren and Jane know exactly what they are talking about. Trust them.

Cai, please don't think that your happiness depends on someone else. When we base our happiness on the response of others, we are often disapointed. True happiness comes from within, from loving others, including yourself. You may WANT a partner, but if you NEED a partner you may never get one. A wise person once told me, "You generally get what you want, as long as you don't need it."

Lovies,
Steph

[Stephenie S]

Not strictly true to generalise Karen, i know many straight men that would date a pre-op TS, who see them as the women they are, who are correcting a birth defect and of course will have the 'correct equipment' after surgery...im one of those straight men!, who would no problem seeking out a pre-op TS to date and HAVE done, but as we are talking GM's here as i said i know quite a few that seeked to date TS woman and are willing to wait for them to have the surgery, its not uncommon over here thats for sure....

Dear Kieron,

You may be unaware of the INCREDIBLE homophobia that many American males seem to grow up with. The likelyhood of being beaten or worse when a man here in the US finds out you "tricked" him into a "homosexual" relationship is very real. Jane said it very well when she said they don't want you because you have a penis and then they don't want you because you HAD one. Perhaps in Britain the situation is different, but here many, many males can often be violently homophobic.

The politically correct view of acceptance is getting better all the time, but when it comes right down to the physical, here comes old Mr. Anti-Gay, rearing his ugly head.

Here is just one small example of this: I transitioned pretty much in public. All my friends know what I am doing. I stop for lunch at the same place every day on the way to work. The two employees (a man and a woman) and the boss (a man) have been very supportive and accepting. Recently, I had not stopped there for a week or so. When I did stop everyone was pleased and happy to see me. The woman came out from behind the counter and gave me a big hug. The boss said, "Hey, don't I get a hug?" I said, "Sure!", and opened my arms to him. He then carefully turned sideways before hugging me. A small thing, perhaps, but illustrative of my point.

Not every male is like this, but enough to give you pause for thought. My neighbor's boyfriend does not seem at all uneasy about physical contact, but he is in a secure relationship with a GG who is an old friend of mine.

There have been enough well publicized incidents here to give us a realistic view about the reactions of men to TG women.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Kieron Andrew]

Dear Kieron,

You may be unaware of the INCREDIBLE homophobia that many American males seem to grow up with. The likelyhood of being beaten or worse when a man here in the US finds out you "tricked" him into a "homosexual" relationship is very real. Jane said it very well when she said they don't want you because you have a penis and then they don't want you because you HAD one. Perhaps in Britain the situation is different, but here many, many males can often be violently homophobic.

The politically correct view of acceptance is getting better all the time, but when it comes right down to the physical, here comes old Mr. Anti-Gay, rearing his ugly head.

Here is just one small example of this: I transitioned pretty much in public. All my friends know what I am doing. I stop for lunch at the same place every day on the way to work. The two employees (a man and a woman) and the boss (a man) have been very supportive and accepting. Recently, I had not stopped there for a week or so. When I did stop everyone was pleased and happy to see me. The woman came out from behind the counter and gave me a big hug. The boss said, "Hey, don't I get a hug?" I said, "Sure!", and opened my arms to him. He then carefully turned sideways before hugging me. A small thing, perhaps, but illustrative of my point.

Not every male is like this, but enough to give you pause for thought. My neighbor's boyfriend does not seem at all uneasy about physical contact, but he is in a secure relationship with a GG who is an old friend of mine.

There have been enough well publicized incidents here to give us a realistic view about the reactions of men to TG women.

Lovies,
Stephenie

oh i totally agree its still out there...but as you said its getting better, and i wanted to illustrate the good side as well as the bad, that there ARE men out there that do take TS women on face value and are willing to take a leap of faith and date them, and its not for whats between their legs, its for what they WILL be getting in the future that counts for them :D

[Vivian Best]

I think to some degree the acceptance or rejection of pre/post op TSs depends on your location. There are some countries and cities that are just more openminded than other places. I know that in the mid USA they would be less accepted than say in California or New York City.

This thread started talking about ******** so I want to make a short remark about them. For the most part they have been protrayed in a less than noble light. I'm sure many are in the sex trade and we know not the reason and there are many that legitimately keep their "bits" as stated earlier for various reasons. I am not condoning or condemning either. This world is made up with all kinds, including us! I say if that is the way they want to live, that's ok by me.

[Cai]

Both Karren and Jane know exactly what they are talking about. Trust them.

Cai, please don't think that your happiness depends on someone else. When we base our happiness on the response of others, we are often disapointed. True happiness comes from within, from loving others, including yourself. You may WANT a partner, but if you NEED a partner you may never get one. A wise person once told me, "You generally get what you want, as long as you don't need it."

Lovies,
Steph
Oh, I am happy in myself, mostly. But I'm an intensely social person. I've lived alone before, working full-time, and without someone to talk to to, I went into the worst depression I've ever hit. The idea of spending my life without someone to come home to seems very sad to me.

But that has nothing to do with the point of this thread, and I apologize for taking it so far off-topic.

[wishonastar]

I think to some degree the acceptance or rejection of pre/post op TSs depends on your location. There are some countries and cities that are just more openminded than other places. I know that in the mid USA they would be less accepted than say in California or New York City.

This thread started talking about ******** so I want to make a short remark about them. For the most part they have been protrayed in a less than noble light. I'm sure many are in the sex trade and we know not the reason and there are many that legitimately keep their "bits" as stated earlier for various reasons. I am not condoning or condemning either. This world is made up with all kinds, including us! I say if that is the way they want to live, that's ok by me.


and it is true that it is a term used in the porn trade.

It is sad that tg women have to sell themselves to pay for SRS.

There should be a foundation that helps them at least get breaks from the doctor or donations.

As far a come countries! Some kill gays and TG like south of the border in the US. ( I have a friend from Mexico that told me this and it is why her tg brother is in the US, her exact words "because they are killed in Mexico".)

Then there is Iran that "gives" sexchanges but has no gays, at least according to the president of Iran. They do not have gays because they get killed there also.

Until all people of all countries accept people for what they are you will have to beware. It is better but will be generations before 98% accepted, if ever in the middle east and Midwest US!

[Lisa Golightly]

Basically a ******* wants a working penis, so it's silicone rather than hormones... A TS actually looks forward to the day when nothing works.

The porn thing is an Americanism.

[Scotty]

Some transwomen choose to remain non-ops. As you put it, I believe they are "transsexuals who choose to keep their bits". It's not a position I pretend to understand, but just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it's any less valid.

I'll use me as an example and hopefully expand your knowledge :)

I would SOOOO love to be a full time woman.

I also have a child who needs her dad, for reasons we won't go into here but her mom is less than capable (yet has custody).....

I live in a conservative town.

I would have to give up everything I've worked for, done, and whatever else for the past 30 years to do this.

The benefits? Lose a job, maybe not ge ta new job, end up homeless?
Those are REAL RISKS that you see so many post op/pre-op TS's go through.

FOr me the risk would not be worth it, not yet...especially where the daughter is concerned.

So I opt to stay externally in guy mode, although I would like again to grow my hair out, and I have my "bits", and sometimes I do enjoy those bits!!! I don't miss it when it's gone (Ie T-blockers), and I LOVE the breasts, thighs, and hips - so I have SOMEWHAT fullfilled my transition but must keep it a secret.....

Those ******** on porn sites, well they have a radically different life - obvious breats, long hair, femme ways - but they have a job too....I hear it does not pay THAT well either...

There was a TS on Eunuch.org that lost everything, combat veteran, she lost it all and could not even get welfare (Don't get me started there!)...

Some of us are happy transitioning halfway, and that's the best it will be for now.....

Although I've decided I'm going to switch to the patch, go for a B cup and well let the dice roll where they will.....my A cups are fully femme now so I can't sell them off as "Man boobs".....so no girlfriend...

[Zee]

1 - Why are these labels so important? To place a label on a life style is to categorically stereotype an individual based on your ideals. Really, is that what we want? Do we all want to be thought of as a one size fits all? No matter what you call us, Transgendered, pre/post op, *******, even crossdresser, it will never do justice to the individual. We are all wonderful, beautiful individuals who come from a variety of backgrounds. Who really cares if a pre op sex worker is trying to make a living? What right do you have to pass judgement on that individual? Unless you have been that individual for a time, my guess is that you don't have a right to judge them. No one is "better" than anyone else so why do we think the opposite? Why are we quick to judge them rather than accept them? We all want acceptance, my suggestion is to stop labelling people and accept them as people. Even if a person wants to be called a ******* and doesn't work in the sex industry, really, what right do we have to arbitrarily indicate that the term "*******" is referentially sex trade related.


'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

2 - The idea that a transfemme person wishes to keep their male organs is not odd. Why would anyone find this troubling is beyond me. After all, in the final analysis, does it really matter? Many people out there are wonderful and loving individuals. And if they have female and male parts? SO WHAT!!! Thats not your choice, it was their choice. All we can do is accept that that was their choice. It is wonderful to live in countires where the freedom of choice is paramount. With out that freedom, would we really be on these forums? We can all show our gratitude for our freedom of choice by accepting other peoples choices. We have every right not to agree with their choice, but their choice is not your choice. All you have to do is worry about the choices that are given to you, not to someone else. So be greatful for your choices, remember, people may not agree with your choices.

[briannad]

Zee..very well said..

[Valeria]

Of course there are chasers out there. But there are also straight men who will date pre-op or non-op TS women, because they see them as women.
I know a woman that recently married her boyfriend to whom she's been engaged since she was pre-op. I know other women that have straight boyfriends who are willing to work around their "bits". Now, these are all younger women -- I don't know of any older examples (but then, I know more younger TS women than older ones).

I agree that it is rare, and people shouldn't count on it, but it does happen.

I know of several married post-ops, for that matter. Once the "bits" match the presentation, it does tend to get much easier to date straight guys.

[androgyne]

Just wanted to say that some of the most striking and beautiful TS women I have met are non-ops. Irrespective, a lot of animosity seems to exists towards them because of the stigma of many of them being involved in the porn industry. Like all things in life, it is hard to break away with stigma, once you've been labeled as a group. Many minorities share similar experiences, albeit for different reasons. It is largely the result of fear and ignorance and there seems to be a lot of that going around today. As individuals, we have the power to transcend it and respect each other for are unique and subtle differences.

[Nicole Erin]

Oh, I see. ******* is an entertainment term. Someone who keeps their bits is a non-op TS. Duh.


She-male is the porn industry's term for pre or non-op TS.
I personally knew a "She-male" from an old support group. She was an escort, and "she-male" is how she identified herself in person and on her business card.

To call a ******* a TS is no big deal, but TS's do NOT want to be mistaken for S.M.

[wishonastar]

A ******* is undergoing gender transition. How far they go it up to them. Clearly they are Transgendered, born in the wrong body. But getting that thing cut off is not the deciding factor on if they are tg or not. For some it is just not an option. But that does not make them something other than transgendered. (I consider myself in the wrong body but because of my age, financial position and most important wife and family, I cannot do anything about it. Am I Transgendered or Transexual or none or both.)

Having “outie” removed and made into an “inny” is a big decision. Personally I would not do it simply because I am a perfectionist and the man made girl part is not the same as the real thing. I know I would be disappointed, even though I would really like to get rid of that thing down there, I hate it!

In a few years I am sure they will be able to grow them and other body parts. They are close to it now, with this new discovery of being able to make a “stem cell” from a normal cell that will, they say, function as well as a fetal stem cell. Next they need to be able to trigger it to grow any body part. I suspect they will be able to take a damaged ovary and grow another one very soon if they have not already done it!

As far as crossdressing anyone that wears clothes not “normal” for their gender is crossdressing, as far as the accepted definition. BUT, is your wife crossdressing when she wears your pants or shirt? Yes, but it is not see as that! You wear her shirt or pants it is crossdressing.

In any case, I see TG/TS as being a person born in the wrong body, gender wise. I do not really see a TG/TS person as crossdressing because they are dressing in the correct gender for them! ******* is a media label that is all.

I know this goes out of the scope of this thread but is it related to definitions.

[androgyne]

Having “outie” removed and made into an “inny” is a big decision. Personally I would not do it simply because I am a perfectionist and the man made girl part is not the same as the real thing. I know I would be disappointed, even though I would really like to get rid of that thing down there, I hate it!

In my case, I am the exact opposite and luv having my male equipment intact. But I also luv female breasts and the other neat body skulpturing that comes with taking hormones :)

For me, it really is the best of both worlds and I have no desire to get rid of that thing down there, but I can certainly understand your frustration. :hugs:

[Joy Carter]

That's only because the word "*******" is mostly used within the sex entertainment industry. The person it is used to describe is a non-op, and non-op =/= sex worker.

Duh ! What are they if they are sex workers then ? Inquiring minds want to know. :D

[wishonastar]

In my case, I am the exact opposite and luv having my male equipment intact. But I also luv female breasts and the other neat body skulpturing that comes with taking hormones :)

For me, it really is the best of both worlds and I have no desire to get rid of that thing down there, but I can certainly understand your frustration. :hugs:

So I am not too messed up. Ideally I would like both parts with a womans body, since I prefer women and would not like a lesbian relationship,(do not ask why).

[Nicki B]

******* and maybe Ladyboy are sex industry terms. They get into it because of loss of job, low self esteem and still with male hormones and a male libido.

Transsexual and Trangender groups find the term offensive.

Umm - speak for yourself. Why do you feel the need to judge? Do you know any, personally?


The porn thing is an Americanism.

Indeed. Divided again by a 'common' language..

[battybattybats]

Hmm... quite possibly they are transexual but rather than being a woman trapped in a mans body they might be an hermaphrodite trapped in a mans body.

And remember everyone, not all people in the sex/adult industry do so because they have to. Some people genuinly enjoy it. While absolutely we should do everything possible to ensure there are alternatives and to protect people from having to work in that industry let us not demonise every sex worker and adult entertainer while doing so. In fact where it is properly regulated studies have shown that the level of self esteem, job satisfaction and overall happiness amongst women working in legal brothels is on a par with woman working in offices!

[androgyne]

I'm a gay man trying to get other gay men to find me attractive, while lacking major features that gay men like. And I have to hold out hope that I will find someone that can move beyond the physical, because otherwise, I might as well just give into the depression and become a loner. I want a partner, and I want to adopt someday. For me, life alone would be worthless.

Sadly, the last thing a gay man wants is a man that looks and acts like a woman, which in effect provides an incentive to transition, rather than have one foot in the water as a female - and the other one on land as a male. It's a difficult situation.

[Brianna Kylee]

Oh, I see. ******* is an entertainment term. Someone who keeps their bits is a non-op TS. Duh.

I don't know about that because, I plain on keeping my "bits" but i'm not even sure I identify as a TS i feel more, in between. Like maybe bigendered or intergendered. I do want to go through HRT and live full time with a female presentation. But I don't plan on surgeries.

[Sissy_Audrey]

Sadly, the average wage of a transwoman is very low and many lose their jobs two or three months after they transition. This forces many to consider the seedy side of life and ******** are part of this. Tranny fanciers love this kind of porn or sex so there is a market. I would not really consider them as anything other than performers in the sex trade. Who can really say what their personal lives are like? What serves as normal for porn stars too for that matter?

Wow...i really don't know what to say, except way to show support. i am a transsexual, who identifies female, but enjoys "being" with women. Yes, that means i will be keeping my "bits". However, this does not mean i will be starring in any porno flick during my lifetime. And yes, in the community where i live, they would be considered TS.

[scarlet]

I happened to like the answer Zee gave best . My :2c: added they are just like you and I but have made other choices. People need to respect that.:hugs:

[Maggie Kay]

Wow...i really don't know what to say, except way to show support. i am a transsexual, who identifies female, but enjoys "being" with women. Yes, that means i will be keeping my "bits". However, this does not mean i will be starring in any porno flick during my lifetime. And yes, in the community where i live, they would be considered TS.

This is not a matter of being supportive or to condemn. If you search the Transgender sites you will rarely ever see Transwomen refer to themselves as "********". If you Google "*******" you will find your search results filled with porn references. A non-op TS is much different and I happen to be one also. So it is a matter of the lexicon and in the transgender world the terms are in flux constantly. However, I doubt that many want to be allied in the minds of the public as those in the porn industry. We have enough trouble as it is being accepted.

[GypsyKaren]

I myself find the word highly offensive, to me it's the N-word, and I don't know any TS'ers who refer to themselves as one or mind being called one. Maggie touched on something that I was going to mention, but the truth is I avoided it because I'd just as soon see this thread disappear. I Googled "*******" the other night and got 18,900,000 hits, and I scrolled through the first 500. Except of one hit from Wikipedia with a definition, the rest were for porn sites, all of them. I guess there's an awful lot of wrongfully unemployed pre-ops out there being "forced" into this in order to live, though they somehow manage to come up with the money and resources for FFS, hormones, breast augmentation, and who knows what else, everything but a roof over their heads and food on the table...yeah right.

Karen Starlene :star:

[androgyne]

There seems to be a great deal of animosity directed towards TS non-ops that work in the adult entertainment industry. My observation is that some of them are so strikingly beautiful, passable and financially successful that it has created some resentment among those who aren't, including those that went through with surgery.

[GypsyKaren]

There seems to be a great deal of animosity directed towards TS non-ops that work in the adult entertainment industry. My observation is that some of them are so strikingly beautiful, passable and financially successful that it has created some resentment among those who aren't, including those that went through with surgery.

Trust me , I don't lie awake at night wishing I could look or be like any of them, I'm quite happy being strikingly plain looking, non passable and broke...I think there's been enough of this subject, it's now over.

Karen Starlene :star: