Masculinity and being male

[Michellebej]

I have noticed a re-occurring theme here and thought I could provoke some thought and discussion by going about this from a parallel perspective.

Now; I am going to step out of my Heels for a moment and back into my Combat boots.

Having been born a man and having lived in the "manly" World for....well...I'm not going to tell you my age, but; I remember when we launched rockets to the Moon!

In the world of men, there are definite differences between being a man and being masculine. There are "Manly Men" and "limp wristers" and everything in between. It is recognized, and widely accepted just because one is born male does not mean that one is masculine.

Masculinity is not recognized as an innate part of the "Y" Chromosome. "Though it should be" is heard often enough.

I spent a good many years in the military. Enough to retire. It was sometimes brought to my attention that I had female qualities; such as a nurturing nature; an ability to understand women; and a somewhat fussy nature. I had also been questioned/razed many times over keeping my legs and arms shaved.

I was never considered masculine by any stretch of the imagination. But; do you know why I never had any problems?

In uniform I wore the "tower of power", Airborne wings with star, Air Assault wings, CIB, a rather prestigious combat patch. Not to mention a Bronze Star, Purple heart, Air Medals, ARCOM with V, ect, ect.

I had achieved all the "check marks" of being masculine, but; was not considered masculine.

Among the boys; bad behaviour, crude remarks, insensitivity, and a certain amount of stupidity are all hallmarks of the truly masculine ( who else would grab a rifle and make a frontal assault on a fixed machine gun? . You think I am kidding,but; the man that does that, even if considered a bit dumb, is placed at the pinnacle "manliness")

So; the question becomes ( I knew you were wondering if I would get to it):"If masculinity is not assumed to be an innate part of being male, then; why is femininity assumed to be an innate part of having four "x" chromosomes?

Michelle

[Joy Carter]

Interesting question Michelle.

I think the two are a result of one's sex and peer pressure.................................
I'll get back to you latter on this. I have to lye down now, my head hurts from thinking. :rolleyes:

[Stephenie S]

Sorry, I don't agree with your definitions of masculine even a little bit. I know plenty of REAL men who don't meet your criteria at all.

Stephie

[Raquel June]

I don't agree with your saying masculinity isn't considered innate to males. Webster's first definition of masculine is simply "male."

Masculinity is considered innate to males. Femininity is considered innate to females. If a male is not masculine, he is considered to have something wrong with him. If a female is not feminine, she is considered to have something wrong with her.

You showed a lot of feminine traits, but you showed some pretty over-the-top masculine traits so nobody gave you a hard time about the feminine ones. That's fairly typical. If the biggest nerd in school wears a pink shirt, he gets made fun of. If the biggest jock in school wears a pink shirt, people say it's cool.

[Denise Barrett]

Hi Michelle, :hugs:

Definitions are based, I believe, on social acceptances and uses. Gender is binary, male and female, with the rare exceptions not worth considering in this discussion. Masculine and feminine is not congruent with gender even though societies want to make it so. There is a wide spectrum between masculine and feminine which falls within both male and female. I am more feminine, as you seem to be, than normal for a male. And within the female population, there those who are more masculine, could kick my ass easily, and maybe yours. But society is always wanting to link gender with, what shall we call it, sexuality? Whatever defines masculine and feminine. The other problem is bravery, your medals and accomplishments, these have nothing to do with masculine and feminine. Bravery is overcoming a fear to do what needs to be done; females do that too. So, after a long explanation, masculinity and femininity are not innate to male and female, respectively. Where is Marla S. when I need her? Hope that answers your question.

With all my love and respect, :love:
Denise

P.S. Thank you for your service to our country. We wouldn't maintain our freedoms wthout all of you.

[Deanna2]

You raise some interesting points. On the female side there are many women who, whilst female, certainly are not feminine as we would like to define it. Hence, the tag of tom-boy. However, they can act like ladies when the need arises.

Similarly with guys, we don't have to be 'one of the boys' to be masculine. Even so we can still have a night out, get drunk, fall over, throw up and declare we had a ripper night (what we remember of it anyway) and let's do it all again next week.

As I have said elsewhere on this forum tags or labels just don't work. It is lazy way of pigeon-holing or stereo-typing people so we don't have make future decisions about them. Like all bikies are thugs. I bet they're not - but hey, I don't have time to make decisions about every bikie I see.

We are all individuals with individual interests and desires. The majority of people don't have the time or inclination to make subtle distinctions.

[jackieo]

I have noticed a re-occurring theme here and thought I could provoke some thought and discussion by going about this from a parallel perspective.

Now; I am going to step out of my Heels for a moment and back into my Combat boots.

Having been born a man and having lived in the "manly" World for....well...I'm not going to tell you my age, but; I remember when we launched rockets to the Moon!

In the world of men, there are definite differences between being a man and being masculine. There are "Manly Men" and "limp wristers" and everything in between. It is recognized, and widely accepted just because one is born male does not mean that one is masculine.

Masculinity is not recognized as an innate part of the "Y" Chromosome. "Though it should be" is heard often enough.

I spent a good many years in the military. Enough to retire. It was sometimes brought to my attention that I had female qualities; such as a nurturing nature; an ability to understand women; and a somewhat fussy nature. I had also been questioned/razed many times over keeping my legs and arms shaved.

I was never considered masculine by any stretch of the imagination. But; do you know why I never had any problems?

In uniform I wore the "tower of power", Airborne wings with star, Air Assault wings, CIB, a rather prestigious combat patch. Not to mention a Bronze Star, Purple heart, Air Medals, ARCOM with V, ect, ect.

I had achieved all the "check marks" of being masculine, but; was not considered masculine.

Among the boys; bad behaviour, crude remarks, insensitivity, and a certain amount of stupidity are all hallmarks of the truly masculine ( who else would grab a rifle and make a frontal assault on a fixed machine gun? . You think I am kidding,but; the man that does that, even if considered a bit dumb, is placed at the pinnacle "manliness")

So; the question becomes ( I knew you were wondering if I would get to it):"If masculinity is not assumed to be an innate part of being male, then; why is femininity assumed to be an innate part of having four "x" chromosomes?

Michelle

I have xxyy and this mixes everything up I have more estergen then most women my age I put wight on in all the same places as a women I have small brestes and not much hair on my body I shave ones a week I can't billed big mussels like a man I just stay the same size every were.down fall slow learning as child reading and speech I grew vary tall real fast over on summer5'5 to 6'6 and 200 lbs I have a body like a girl the equipment like a man and this puts you right in the middle so growing up was vary confusing to say the least.:be:
love jackie

[Lucy Bright]

I think masculinity is probably assumed to be (normally) an innate part of being male. However, the idea of what masculinity consists in varies across cultures. Some cultures identify masculinity with the kind of machismo you describe, while others include what macho-men might call feminine traits, such as nurturing. (And we all know about the egg-sitting male ostriches, pregnant male seahorses, etc!) In some cultures finding boys attractive is considered effeminate - in ancient Athens it was part of normal masculine behaviour. But these things are not fixed in stone, and even in my lifetime the range of possible lifestyles encompassed within 'masculine' in my own society has grown considerably. All this applies to femininity too, of course. And I'm all in favour of it, though it doesn't have as much as one might think to do with gender identity.

As for the other part of your question, I think there is a tendency for CDs to go for 'extreme' forms of femininity - whatever the opposite of machismo is! Partly perhaps it's because, only being able to present as female on occasions, they want to make the most of it! I've noticed that those among us who are 24/7, whether TG or TS, are to be found in jeans and sneakers just as much as GGs are. That would probably happen to more of us if we could CD for long enough that it became 'ordinary'.

Kisses,

Lucy

[Jodi]

I have noticed a re-occurring theme here and thought I could provoke some thought and discussion by going about this from a parallel perspective.

Now; I am going to step out of my Heels for a moment and back into my Combat boots.

Having been born a man and having lived in the "manly" World for....well...I'm not going to tell you my age, but; I remember when we launched rockets to the Moon!

In the world of men, there are definite differences between being a man and being masculine. There are "Manly Men" and "limp wristers" and everything in between. It is recognized, and widely accepted just because one is born male does not mean that one is masculine.

Masculinity is not recognized as an innate part of the "Y" Chromosome. "Though it should be" is heard often enough.

I spent a good many years in the military. Enough to retire. It was sometimes brought to my attention that I had female qualities; such as a nurturing nature; an ability to understand women; and a somewhat fussy nature. I had also been questioned/razed many times over keeping my legs and arms shaved.

I was never considered masculine by any stretch of the imagination. But; do you know why I never had any problems?

In uniform I wore the "tower of power", Airborne wings with star, Air Assault wings, CIB, a rather prestigious combat patch. Not to mention a Bronze Star, Purple heart, Air Medals, ARCOM with V, ect, ect.

I had achieved all the "check marks" of being masculine, but; was not considered masculine.

Among the boys; bad behaviour, crude remarks, insensitivity, and a certain amount of stupidity are all hallmarks of the truly masculine ( who else would grab a rifle and make a frontal assault on a fixed machine gun? . You think I am kidding,but; the man that does that, even if considered a bit dumb, is placed at the pinnacle "manliness")

So; the question becomes ( I knew you were wondering if I would get to it):"If masculinity is not assumed to be an innate part of being male, then; why is femininity assumed to be an innate part of having four "x" chromosomes?

Michelle

Michele, I am compelled to chime in here. What you accomplished to earn your military decorations was bravery in the face of fire, not necessarily masculinity. You encountered challenges and you met those challenges to perform your duty to the highest expectations. Women are doing likewise in the mid-east today. Some are quite petite and femme, but they have earned bronze stars, silver stars, purple hearts, etc. True bravery can be either masculine or feminine.

Jodi (US Army retired)

[Sinthia]

One is physical. like the number of Y chromosones you are born with, and the other is mental. If you want to play GIjoe, then go right ahead. Jump out of a perfectly good airplane, etc. But don't do it in heels. Bad for the ankles.

I was in the Army also, but had never even thought of crossdressing until several years later. I have never been told that I have feminine traits, and I do not believe that I do, but I still love putting on a dress and heels.

Many of you girls really look great, in your avatar, and spend a lot of time with makeup, hair, jewelry, etc., but I am not that far into crossdressing. But that does not mean that my mental feeling of dressing is not as great. I feel that it is all on a personal level. You do what makes you happy. Be if in dresses or pants. Just enjoy your life as full as you can.

[SAMANTHA_IN_MT]

I have been a firm believer that gender and physcial sex are 2 different things. Now that being said (Im sure some of you are rolling your eyes) let me explain. Many of us are men who enjoy dressing as woman and getting in touch with our fem side, some that identify as women and some fettish dressers. Pardon me if I offended anybody there. Now as far as your quandry, in my humble opnion I believe that many of us myself included choose overly manly professions or activities. You can say Im wrong but look at it objectivly; There are many firefighters, EMT's, Police officers, military men, etc etc.... I think that we chose these professions not to prove to others that we are men but to prove to ourselves that we have not submitted to our fem persona totally. As far as chromosones deciding what gender you will be that is science but how you feel inside is a matter for the overpaid scientists to figure out why we crossdress.

[Zee]

I believe what Michelle is trying to say (well, at least what I got from it) is not to define what it is to be male, but rather, why is it that taken as a whole from the general male population, are the things that Michelle has said taken as a "manly" thing to do?

I believe it stems from the upbringing of individuals. One will latch on to the idea of being a "man", what ever that idea is, and run with it (generally). A boy has an innate need to feel accepted and he will go to great lengths to be accepted by his peers. If his peers think that charging a fixed impalcement is "manly", then thats what he will do. Likewise, if the man's peers think its "cool" to become a gibbering idiot, filling his gills with liquid courage, thats what happens.

Women, it seems, have a bit more sense about them when it comes to acceptance by their peers. Although they do go out of their way to fit in, it is in a much more subtle way. Fashion is a prime example. Not really a change in behavior (though it does happen), but an expression in appearance to be accepted by their peer group.

To be manly, I believe, is based mainly on how ones peers and family define it. Likewise with women to be feminin.

Z

[Michellebej]

Great comments!

First off, yes, I agree wholeheartedly that bravery is not restricted to sex or gender. There are many fine women serving in the Armed forces.

Strangely some of you agree with me, but; don't know it. Lets look at the definition of "Innate" first.

Websters defines Innate as: existing in one from birth,inborn, native.

Webster defines Masculine as: having the qualities or characteristics of a man, 2) pertaining to, or characteristic of a man.

So; in this discussion then if masculinity is innate then all men are by definition masculine. As they are born with masculinity.

I would say that that is a demonstrably false statement.

OK...so as evidenced here, not all of us agree on what defines "masculine". Or at least on what a "real man" is.

I think that is valid, to a point. I would even go so far as to agree with some of the posters that "masculinity" is defined by society.

To some "A real Man" is one who takes an active role in his families life. Who does not drink, carouse, and is responsible. A not unreasonable opinion.

But; who defines what attributes make up a "real ( i.e. a masculine) Man" ?

Well, I would posit that the population under discussion, either consciously or unconsciously, determine and establish that definition.

It is all well and good to say that a real man cries; is responsible; is caring; is gentle, honest, and intelligent.

But; I dare say that if you take a random group of 1000 men, from our common culture ( i.e. western European-for this conversation), you will get a quite different answer.

Throw those thousand men into an arena to hammer out a set of "man laws" and/or what constitutes masculinity, and you will see what happens when "the mob rules".

Many of you have been in the Military. Even amongst ourselves we admit to having a different set of behaviours while in uniform. Cruder, baser, dumbed down.

As a kid I worked as a Carpenter where I experienced the same phenomena. My two best friends, with whom I worked were completely different when "amongst the boys"

And lastly I saw this while I worked in the Law Enforcement field.

The point is: If men define what is masculine, or; even, if society defined what is masculine, then MASCULINITY CAN NOT BE INNATE.

At best it then becomes a criteria agreed upon by common consensus and applied to the male sex as a template by which "maleness" is measured.

It then becomes an Ideal, and not something that is innate.

By this same token then Femininity can not be an innate quality.

Granted the templates of Masculinity and Femininity within a given population are going to follow a set of given ideals, that will be, more or less applicable to a large percentage of the population for which it is designed ( I hope my English teacher doesn't read this sentence!).

But; those templates are not, and can not be absolutes. Humans being human, and individuals being individuals; there will always be variables. People that don't fit.

I think though that I have made a nice logical argument that neither Femininity nor Masculinity are Innate. That they are in fact simple idealistic constructs formed by consensus. Which consensus, constantly changing, constantly redefining what is Masculine and what is Feminine.

Now for the hate mail......

Love

Michelle

[docrobbysherry]

Great comments!

First off, yes, I agree wholeheartedly that bravery is not restricted to sex or gender. There are many fine women serving in the Armed forces.

Strangely some of you agree with me, but; don't know it. Lets look at the definition of "Innate" first.

Websters defines Innate as: existing in one from birth,inborn, native.

Webster defines Masculine as: having the qualities or characteristics of a man, 2) pertaining to, or characteristic of a man.

So; in this discussion then if masculinity is innate then all men are by definition masculine. As they are born with masculinity.

I would say that that is a demonstrably false statement.

OK...so as evidenced here, not all of us agree on what defines "masculine". Or at least on what a "real man" is.

I think that is valid, to a point. I would even go so far as to agree with some of the posters that "masculinity" is defined by society.

To some "A real Man" is one who takes an active role in his families life. Who does not drink, carouse, and is responsible. A not unreasonable opinion.

But; who defines what attributes make up a "real ( i.e. a masculine) Man" ?

Well, I would posit that the population under discussion, either consciously or unconsciously, determine and establish that definition.

It is all well and good to say that a real man cries; is responsible; is caring; is gentle, honest, and intelligent.

But; I dare say that if you take a random group of 1000 men, from our common culture ( i.e. western European-for this conversation), you will get a quite different answer.

Throw those thousand men into an arena to hammer out a set of "man laws" and/or what constitutes masculinity, and you will see what happens when "the mob rules".

Many of you have been in the Military. Even amongst ourselves we admit to having a different set of behaviours while in uniform. Cruder, baser, dumbed down.

As a kid I worked as a Carpenter where I experienced the same phenomena. My two best friends, with whom I worked were completely different when "amongst the boys"

And lastly I saw this while I worked in the Law Enforcement field.

The point is: If men define what is masculine, or; even, if society defined what is masculine, then MASCULINITY CAN NOT BE INNATE.

At best it then becomes a criteria agreed upon by common consensus and applied to the male sex as a template by which "maleness" is measured.

It then becomes an Ideal, and not something that is innate.

By this same token then Femininity can not be an innate quality.

Granted the templates of Masculinity and Femininity within a given population are going to follow a set of given ideals, that will be, more or less applicable to a large percentage of the population for which it is designed ( I hope my English teacher doesn't read this sentence!).

But; those templates are not, and can not be absolutes. Humans being human, and individuals being individuals; there will always be variables. People that don't fit.

I think though that I have made a nice logical argument that neither Femininity nor Masculinity are Innate. That they are in fact simple idealistic constructs formed by consensus. Which consensus, constantly changing, constantly redefining what is Masculine and what is Feminine.

Now for the hate mail......

Love

Michelle

Michelle, I think I understand one part of your dialogue. A "masculine man" may be described by some as a "macho man", or "type A male". When, in fact a lot of those types I've met, seem to be overcompensating for their individual deficiencies.
When I was in basic training during Viet Nam, I was in a platoon with 10 black guys from Watts. There was one among them that was the undisputed leader. Not a squad leader, just a leader among them. Some were much bigger and stronger, but none questioned his authority. Including one little cowardly, murdering, psycho *******, and our black squad leader. They all called him, "sperm". He was what I would call an inate masculine man.
He didn't need to bully, threaten, or even yell. He smiled a lot and spoke only occassionally. However, with just a "look", he could any one of them to back down and shut up. I would call him a real "man's man". If he showed up wearing a dress, all the others would have been wearing them by noon. I have met very few men like him in my life.
RS

[Marla S]

So; the question becomes ( I knew you were wondering if I would get to it):"If masculinity is not assumed to be an innate part of being male, then; why is femininity assumed to be an innate part of having four "x" chromosomes?

IMO, to a certain extend it is innate to a larger extend it is a side effect or spin off, either for "typical" masculinity and for femininity.
It is terrible hard to determine what the innate part really is, because from the very first second on earth we are boxed, grow up in these boxes, adapt to this boxes and learn to live in these boxes.
That leaves marks and creates masculinity and femininity.

Usually it is not a big problem if a man acts a bit more feminine or a woman a bit more masculine. As long as it remains within the regime of soft traits and skills it can be hidden if really necessary (eg army) and might even be a benefit in other situations.

Only when it gets in the regime of hard trait an skills (i.e. gender expression via clothes) it will cause trouble, because now the boxes don't fit anymore, and it is visible for anyone anytime.

On the other side this means, that the gender expression buy clothes, isn't really a sign of femininity or masculinity of the person as a whole. Clothes are only a small aspect, though a very prominent one.

[Kate Simmons]

Masculinity and femininity is a matter of perception as far as I'm concerned. It has very little meaning to me as to who someone is as a person, except to the extent it's assumed and played up. It has more to do with how we want to be perceived and is a personal choice.:happy:

[Joanna-Louise]

Interesting question Michelle.

I think the two are a result of one's sex and peer pressure.................................
I'll get back to you latter on this. I have to lye down now, my head hurts from thinking. :rolleyes:

I'm with you on this one Joy,

i think its a 3am discussion whilst recovering from drinking to much the same day :s

Jo
xx