A genuine question

[charllote34]

Men and women both quite similar apart from a few obvious added extras .My question men have lips cant wear lipstick , women have lips can wear lipstick , men have legs cant wear skirts etc.. women have legs can wear what they like .Men wear trousers so can women ... How did all this come about exactly ? why cant a man wear make up to enhance his appearnce and still keep his masculinaty or wear whatever he feels like without having to be labelled as something i dont get it ?

[Kate Simmons]

Now that would be a "stumper" on the $64,000 Question Charllote. I can just see all the facial expressions and the contestants' faces and hear them stammering. "Well, uh.., well, I er..., Urp...., Geez, I.. The truth is nobody knows but we seem to keep doing it anyway. Makes me wonder sometimes.:rolleyes: what a world.:heehee:

[Nancy Richards]

:2c: Who said life is fair? It just goes to show how mis-understood we really are.

[Julogden]

I've read sociological answers to this question, they usually refer to males/men being perceived as superior beings in most cultures, so if females aspire to be masculine in behavior or appearance, it's viewed as a step up, so to speak. If a male goes feminine, it's viewed as a sign of weakness and a step down in class.

Of course, we here all know better than that.

Carol

[Marla S]

On a rough guess.
Men became the leaders (some say during stone age there was matriarchy).
That makes men the strong and powerful sex and women the weak but more pretty sex.
That's the basis. Now pronounce these traits and privileges and you are where we are.
A men decorates himself with power (money) and gets prettiness by the prettiness of his wife.
The wife decorates herself with makeup an pretty clothes and gets power by the power of her husband.
Clothes that are restrictive and unfunctional, making the week sex weaker, are very welcome ... corsets, heels, skirts, etc. etc.

[RobertaFermina]

Per Freud and his ilk.....

It is all about Natural Selection, Procreation.....SEX.

If you don't care about furthering the species, including and especially "continuing to live into old age", do what you please.

Otherwise, according to Fudd, and his ilk...."be vewy vewy quiet....I'm hunting Twanzfoke ! heheheheheheheh"

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Lissa Stevens]

Men did wear skirts and even makeup at one time. The way society views things changes constantly. Things are starting to move towards acceptance of cding but only time will tell where it will end up.

[jennifer41356]

there is no reason why a guy cant wear a skirt or makeup, its because they are afraid to because it will question their masculinity....a lot f guys are very insecure about their masculinity, that is why they will beat up gay and TGirls, its their fear they might find them attractive

[Joanne f]

We have a conscience so we think to much where as things like birds and fish where it is usually the male which are the most colorful just get on with things.
Of cores the fashion industry might have some thing to do with it as they have worked out that a woman will buy what they like or want but a man will buy what he needs.

I must stop impulse buying :D

joanne

[Julie York]

It's all about sex.

Depends what culture you are in and what period in history. Some cultures the men wear 'skirts'. Some cultures in ancient history they wore eye makeup and body makeup.

If you look at the animal kingdom it is usually the male who has to dress up and make himself look a complete arse whilst huffing and puffing so another male doesn't beat him senseless.

If women want sex they dress in a manner that men find sexy depending on the culture they are in.

If a man wants sex he flaunts whatever power, muscles, or tail feather does the trick. (ooh come and look at my big nest....strut strut)

This is why you get all that "double standard" threads and "Why can't women dress like a bag of spanners?" threads.

Cos they aren't trying to get laid is why.

[Angie G]

I have no idea but if Carol ir ruight I must be pretty low and weak right now but I'm happy hun :hugs:
Angie

[battybattybats]

In the 'cradle of civilisation' cultures: babylonian, Asyrian etc eye makeup was an essential component of men and womens everyday appearance and skirts were too. Still there was different apparel for men and women.

Amongst the Scythians who, along with the Goths stopped the expansion of Rome cold there were both warrior women and transgendered priestesses! They would be castrated and drink the urine of pregnant mares to get their hormones!

In ancient Egypt and ancient Ireland the way to greet someone politely wasn't shaking hands or a kiss on the cheek or even the lips.. it was nipple sucking!

It's very easy to think of those things that are the current social and cultural norms as if they were biological standards imposed throughout all history yet many of these things can be seen to be highly malleable once the broad diversity of human culture is explored.

In africa even now there is a tribe where the men wear make-up and dress prettily and stand around trying to look beautiful to attract the attention of the women who will be the ones to choose who to marry.

Most strict appearance/behaviour rules exist to increase conformity and maintain social order which helps to maintain the stability of authority and limit social and political movement of individuals within the heirarchy. The rules themselves are almost always totally arbitrary but serve to reduce the role of those who do not easilly meet the rules, provide public examples of those breaking the rules and subsequent ostracism and punishment so that the power of authority in other areas can be maintained.

Because of this people who look different, who act differently can be seen as a direct threat to the authority and are subsequently opposed. Where such difference becomes substantially popular the authority often is forced to change their system to accept the popular difference which often is seen to weaken it's power or if a crackdown is unsuccessful it can be the cause of the total loss of power of the authority in a broad scale cultural revolution.

At times of perceived threat to the authority from other sources there is often a crackdown on difference and a repression of free expression resulting in individual roles being re-inforced. During time of war or perception of the threat of war for example gender associated clothing becomes more exaggerated, class and work related does too.

The current situation of clothing in western society, especially with men, has been a swift and strong set of increased exaggerations. It wasn't so long ago that mens suits of armour went through a fashion of crossdressing with exaggerated busts narrow waists and metal skirts that weren't all so practicaly useful. In many places in the 17th century men wore long hair, lace, makeup and it was acceptable for them to to look pretty. The vast majority of changes to mens clothing since has involved more simplicity, more form-changing to a square shape, reduced diversity. In some brief periods, mostly where there was an increase in free-expression in society generally there have been some increases in flamboyance and diversity in mens clothing but still in general it has been a situation of decreased expression.

So whether intended so or not, because of the reaction of human (and chimpanzee and many others) socio-political systems crossdressing (or just appearing different) is an inherantly political act. Just as wearing blue jeans was in the soviet bloc or in one of the oft-ignored but vitally important periods of womens liberation wearing the skirtless neck-to-ankle womens bathing suits that had many women arrested for public indecency.

[Mariah]

*ducks and hides*

keris.

[trannie T]

If men were to regularly wear skirts and makeup what fun would it be to be a crossdresser?

[Zee]

If men were to regularly wear skirts and makeup what fun would it be to be a crossdresser?

This implies that the only enjoyment of being a crossdresser is for the thrill and danger being caught... honestly, I love wearing skirts, danger or no.

Another thought is that the metrosexual movement is going fairly strong where it is ok form men to wear mascara, lipstick and nail polish. Hand bags and such are the norm as well.

Also, the goth look does similar things with make-up, male and female. And its okay to wear a full length skirt as a guy (all be it leather...mmm leather).

I just hope that skirts will be in fasion again (as long as they aren't kilts, tho those are fun too).

[Beth785]

It's all very bass ackwards. In other species, like many birds, the male is the one who is all adorned with bright colors and fancy feathers, while the female is very plan. For the past several generations, men with male children have beat into their minds that men have to be tough and stay away from anything frilly or girly. This is even evident in popular television with fathers chastising boys for playing with dolls, instead of football or other manly sports. This has been passed down for quite some time causing prejudice against anyone who doesn't fit their definition of normal. They act out against the abnormal out of fear of the unknown and for their own gratification (look at me, I'm a man! I made fun of someone different from me.) It started out against skin color, nationality, race, religion, sexual preference, favorite sports team, or whatever. It will never go away.

[Stephenie S]

Men and women both quite similar apart from a few obvious added extras .My question men have lips cant wear lipstick , women have lips can wear lipstick , men have legs cant wear skirts etc.. women have legs can wear what they like .Men wear trousers so can women ... How did all this come about exactly ? why cant a man wear make up to enhance his appearnce and still keep his masculinaty or wear whatever he feels like without having to be labelled as something i dont get it ?

Well, part of your confusion comes from your misaprehensions.

Men CAN wear lipstick. Many men DO wear lipstick. Actors and models spring to mind quickly, but there are many men who, in daily life, DO wear lipstick. You clearly aren't exposed to them, or don't notice, because they are good at it. A good lipstick color should be pretty close to your own natural color. I wore lipstick (Chapstick) for years before I transitioned.

Men CAN wear skirts. There are businessmen's suits made with skirts instead of trousers. Spend some time in a big city or in alternative lifestyle circles and you will see men in skirts. BTW, this whole forum is made up of men who wear skirts. I tell the story of the man I met in Border's Bookstore a few years ago. He was big, a tall hefty man with a full beard, a lumberjack plaid shirt, work boots, and a nice navy blue pleated skirt. If you want to wear a skirt, you just have to DO it.

Your masculinity is NOT determined by what you wear. If you feel this way you are exhibiting a very shallow view of life. Come on, hon. Very masculine weightlifters, wrestlers, swimmers, bicycle racers, models shave all their body hair. Would you question the masculinity of Bruce Willis? Probably not to his face. He wears makeup. Everyone on TV, male or female, wears makeup. Do you question THEIR masculinity?

If you want to wear makeup (and I can't imagine why, what a PIA that is) go ahead. It's not that much fun. It will add lots of time to your morning routine if you do. When I fell a couple of years ago and raised a huge purple bruise on my face, I covered it with makeup from Mary Kay. My co-workers were surprised at how quickly my bruise had healed. I told them, "No, it's just covered with makeup." I got several compliments on how good I was with makeup. It was really how good my sales lady at Mary Kay was at matching my skin tone. See, NOBODY knew I was wearing makeup. If a man is wearing makeup and is good at it, you won't be able to tell anyway. This is true for women also. The ones who are really good at it are the ones you think just have perfect skin. You can't tell they are wearing makeup.

So go ahead dear, it's a lot of work, one more expense, and takes time to learn (did you think that women were BORN with the ability to use makeup?), but if you want to, you can.

Wear a skirt too, if you want. It's not that big a deal.

I suspect, however, that it's not wearing a skirt or wearing makeup that you want to do. I suspect that what you really want to do is to pretend that you are a women for however long a time as you like. I suspect that what you really want to do is present to the world as a woman. This is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish, and is not so easy, or socially acceptable for you. But that is what this whole forum is all about. There's lots of help and lots of info here. But there's not a lot of answers about why men can't wear skirts or wear makeup, because they can.

Lovies,
Stephenie

Read Batty's post again. Batty can argue philosophy with a lampost, and she can be a bit verbose, but she is intelligent and very well read. As she clearly points out and illustrates, fashion is fluid. There have been times when very masculine men wore wigs, lace, high heels, and corsets. Masculinity (and femininity) have little to do with what clothes you happen to be wearing. It would be a bad idea to question the masculinity of a group of skirt wearing Scottish soldiers, for instance.

Steph

[GACountrygal]

Clothes that are restrictive and unfunctional, making the week sex weaker, are very welcome ... corsets, heels, skirts, etc. etc.

sounds like a reason for us all to go back to birthday suits :heehee:

(sorry I couldnt resist myself... :p )

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Well, part of your confusion comes from your misaprehensions.

Men CAN wear lipstick. Many men DO wear lipstick. Actors and models spring to mind quickly, but there are many men who, in daily life, DO wear lipstick. You clearly aren't exposed to them, or don't notice, because they are good at it. A good lipstick color should be pretty close to your own natural color. I wore lipstick (Chapstick) for years before I transitioned.

Men CAN wear skirts. There are businessmen's suits made with skirts instead of trousers. Spend some time in a big city or in alternative lifestyle circles and you will see men in skirts. BTW, this whole forum is made up of men who wear skirts. I tell the story of the man I met in Border's Bookstore a few years ago. He was big, a tall hefty man with a full beard, a lumberjack plaid shirt, work boots, and a nice navy blue pleated skirt. If you want to wear a skirt, you just have to DO it.

Your masculinity is NOT determined by what you wear. If you feel this way you are exhibiting a very shallow view of life. Come on, hon. Very masculine weightlifters, wrestlers, swimmers, bicycle racers, models shave all their body hair. Would you question the masculinity of Bruce Willis? Probably not to his face. He wears makeup. Everyone on TV, male or female, wears makeup. Do you question THEIR masculinity?

If you want to wear makeup (and I can't imagine why, what a PIA that is) go ahead. It's not that much fun. It will add lots of time to your morning routine if you do. When I fell a couple of years ago and raised a huge purple bruise on my face, I covered it with makeup from Mary Kay. My co-workers were surprised at how quickly my bruise had healed. I told them, "No, it's just covered with makeup." I got several compliments on how good I was with makeup. It was really how good my sales lady at Mary Kay was at matching my skin tone. See, NOBODY knew I was wearing makeup. If a man is wearing makeup and is good at it, you won't be able to tell anyway. This is true for women also. The ones who are really good at it are the ones you think just have perfect skin. You can't tell they are wearing makeup.

So go ahead dear, it's a lot of work, one more expense, and takes time to learn (did you think that women were BORN with the ability to use makeup?), but if you want to, you can.

Wear a skirt too, if you want. It's not that big a deal.

I suspect, however, that it's not wearing a skirt or wearing makeup that you want to do. I suspect that what you really want to do is to pretend that you are a women for however long a time as you like. I suspect that what you really want to do is present to the world as a woman. This is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish, and is not so easy, or socially acceptable for you. But that is what this whole forum is all about. There's lots of help and lots of info here. But there's not a lot of answers about why men can't wear skirts or wear makeup, because they can.

Lovies,
Stephenie

Read Batty's post again. Batty can argue philosophy with a lampost, and she can be a bit verbose, but she is intelligent and very well read. As she clearly points out and illustrates, fashion is fluid. There have been times when very masculine men wore wigs, lace, high heels, and corsets. Masculinity (and femininity) have little to do with what clothes you happen to be wearing. It would be a bad idea to question the masculinity of a group of skirt wearing Scottish soldiers, for instance.

Steph

+1 on all of this, especially the comment about Batty's post :)

[KewTnCurvy GG]

why cant a man wear make up to enhance his appearnce and still keep his masculinaty or wear whatever he feels like without having to be labelled as something i dont get it ?

Really?

You're serious?

These types of questions never cease to amaze me.

I was about to actually try and type a thoughtful response but then thought, if someone is asking such questions and not putting much thought into it why should I put all my effort into it.

It's seems quite obvious to me.

Okay, I at least have to say this.

What strikes me as odd is that crossdressers seem to want to emulate the most superficial aspects of what it means to be a woman: i.e., makeup, stockings, high heeled shoes, skirts, dresses, bows.

They do not seem interested--most of them--with the deeper meanings of what it is to be a woman.

For right or wrong, good or bad are society seems to see gender as a very binary thing.

We ALL play into the reality of this.

We ALL help to define and reinforce what it means to be whatever gender we are or identify with.

And finally, even if you try really hard our gender biases are not going away any time soon.

Think about it. The first thing we ask someone when they have a baby was "did you have a boy or a girl?" Right?

Then we name them: a boy or girl's name.

We dress them, in boy or girl clothing.

Anyhow, to me you're asking an impossible question to answer and will not change in any of our lifetimes. Like it or not.

I'd say, start with accepting yourself and be less concerned with what everyone else thinks.

Be who you are and other's will begin to accept.

Try to "sell" gender and people will revolt.

Kew's-2

[Marla S]

sounds like a reason for us all to go back to birthday suits :heehee:

(sorry I couldnt resist myself... :p )
Can we wait for the summer, please ... it's cold right now.:heehee:

[Tree GG]

Society is what it is.....it was what it was....and it will be what it turns into. Fashion, mainstream acceptance of certain personal presentations change and evolve. Next time around, pick a different period in time if you don't like this one :happy: I'm sure there were 17th century men who hated wigs and ruffles - they wore 'em anyway.

In relationship to this forum, however, and this was really a light bulb moment for me, MTF CDs don't want to be "real" women. (Don't gag GK, I'm referring to those that aren't 24/7 or TS) They want to be a fantasized, self-created image of the woman they would be if they had that genetic code - but at the same time they like being male and don't want to permanently give that up. I can see where that would create one helluva internal dilemma. Having your cake & eating it too is hard. :happy:

As I understand it from hearing my husband talk and some others, the problem CDs resent so much is that openly CDing immediately excludes them from the Male club by other males....the good ol' boys that they have tried all their life to fit in with and conform to. I believe this to be true because my husband wants to come out to my sisters, my mother, go to lesbian nightclubs, etc.....not my brother or in-laws or the guys at work or his male friends, nor would go to a gay bar. He is most comfortable either just with me or in the company of other CDs - males that appreciate his feelings.

So I turn the responsibility back onto the CDer - society may not encourage acceptance of CDing, but I don't believe it's society in general you're all worried about - it's the opinions of other men.

:2c:

[melissacd]

There are many wonderful thoughts and ideas here. I appreciate them all. I will throw my own 2 cents on the pile.

...we choose...

Social customs come and go, fashion trends roll back and forth like waves in water, the majority of people go with the majority cultural view, that is why they are called the majority and why it is called popular culture. The catalysts of change are those on the fringe pushing the envelope a little bit every day. The more who push the more it shifts in that direction.

Ultimately we choose to push that envelope or not. With choice comes consequence. If you want to make this choice, at whatever level you choose to make it, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences of that choice, otherwise don't make it.

...so we choose...we decide to do it or not. Each of us individually and through minuscule incremental selections move in a direction.

If you want to dress, dress. Do not project onto cultural rights or wrongs, just do it. If you are unwilling to accept the consequences of just doing it then don't do it, just don't complain about what you cannot control, the reaction of the world.

My experience to date has been that the biggest obstacle to my cross dressing is not society, rather it is me. It is my fears that hold me back. As I challenge those fears, one small step at a time I get stronger and more confident in my ability to go out into the world dressed and have it be a positive experience.

[Stephenie S]

Society is what it is.....it was what it was....and it will be what it turns into. Fashion, mainstream acceptance of certain personal presentations change and evolve. Next time around, pick a different period in time if you don't like this one :happy: I'm sure there were 17th century men who hated wigs and ruffles - they wore 'em anyway.

In relationship to this forum, however, and this was really a light bulb moment for me, MTF CDs don't want to be "real" women. (Don't gag GK, I'm referring to those that aren't 24/7 or TS) They want to be a fantasized, self-created image of the woman they would be if they had that genetic code - but at the same time they like being male and don't want to permanently give that up. I can see where that would create one helluva internal dilemma. Having your cake & eating it too is hard. :happy:

As I understand it from hearing my husband talk and some others, the problem CDs resent so much is that openly CDing immediately excludes them from the Male club by other males....the good ol' boys that they have tried all their life to fit in with and conform to. I believe this to be true because my husband wants to come out to my sisters, my mother, go to lesbian nightclubs, etc.....not my brother or in-laws or the guys at work or his male friends, nor would go to a gay bar. He is most comfortable either just with me or in the company of other CDs - males that appreciate his feelings.

So I turn the responsibility back onto the CDer - society may not encourage acceptance of CDing, but I don't believe it's society in general you're all worried about - it's the opinions of other men.

:2c:

You hit the nail squarely on the head with this one, Tree. You are absolutely correct.

But I still maintain that masculinity has little to do with what you wear. In reality, I think, most other men react to the guilt and shame CDers exhibit towards their CDing. When presented with a matter a fact, guiltfree attitude towards CDing by another man, most men are accepting. We all have wierd habits. We all have strange behaviors. If we present these to others as shameful acts, others will treat them as such. If we are not ashamed of ourselves, others will have little to blame us for.

I discovered this early on in my CDing life. If, when others were ridiculing CDers, I merely said, "So what? I do that too. It's fun and the wife really gets turned on by it," that was usually the end of the conversation. Maybe a couple of "No s**t?" or "really?" But calm acceptance usually trumps ridicule every time. In my younger years, when I was a pretty "out there" CDer with all the trimmings, my acceptance of myself went a long way towards smoothing my way in the world. Guilt and shame are our ememies. Guilt and shame.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[EDNA]

I had a few things going for me and the reason. That I felt more like a Girl. Then as a Boy. As I had girl type lips and as I was getting older. I did not have hair on my legs and chest. Plus I at the age of Ten. I had problems in School and Gym class. As I started getting breast and by the age of Eighteen. I had breast. Like my girl cousins had. So Crossdressing was no problem. Other then having to shave my arms, face and airpits.

[charllote34]

Thank you all for your answers some great ones and No i dont want to be a woman !!! in answer to one post . by the way i dont post to shock only to learn , thats how mankind as evolved by ASKING QUESTIONS!! i thank you xxx

[battybattybats]

Read Batty's post again. Batty can argue philosophy with a lampost, and she can be a bit verbose, but she is intelligent and very well read. As she clearly points out and illustrates, fashion is fluid. There have been times when very masculine men wore wigs, lace, high heels, and corsets. Masculinity (and femininity) have little to do with what clothes you happen to be wearing. It would be a bad idea to question the masculinity of a group of skirt wearing Scottish soldiers, for instance.

Steph

:blushing: thanks for the praise, and a fair criticism too. :hugs:


As I understand it from hearing my husband talk and some others, the problem CDs resent so much is that openly CDing immediately excludes them from the Male club by other males....the good ol' boys that they have tried all their life to fit in with and conform to. I believe this to be true because my husband wants to come out to my sisters, my mother, go to lesbian nightclubs, etc.....not my brother or in-laws or the guys at work or his male friends, nor would go to a gay bar. He is most comfortable either just with me or in the company of other CDs - males that appreciate his feelings.

So I turn the responsibility back onto the CDer - society may not encourage acceptance of CDing, but I don't believe it's society in general you're all worried about - it's the opinions of other men.


While you could be spot on about your husband in my case it's definatly not about being scared of being kicked out of the 'male club'. It's more 'my male friend is more hung up about these sorts of things and may cease being my friend' and 'those homophobic/transphobic men may try and kill me'.

Much of current male culture is outright homophobic/transphobic, heck much of what little is allowed to masculinity is so by being defined as 'not girly' and 'not gay'. Not to mention the competative 'pecking order' that, for the many men who unlike me have bought into it, losing rank and respect would really genuinly hurt.

I've been the target of serious violence in the past (while at school in a more rural town there was an attempted stabbing, attempted hit and run and plenty of fistfights) for being different and that involved no femininity, just liking books and not sport. So I think such fears, while often exagerated, are quite understandable.

Still fashion changes because the different make waves and then others follow.

[Zee]

While you could be spot on about your husband in my case it's definatly not about being scared of being kicked out of the 'male club'. It's more 'my male friend is more hung up about these sorts of things and may cease being my friend' and 'those homophobic/transphobic men may try and kill me'.



Definately not so in my case either. I have precious few friends, many aquaintances. My deepest concern is that my children will be the subject of ridicule in their social lives more than I. I can and have taken much in my past, and I expect I will take much more in the future.

I for one never wanted to be male. I remember when I was about 6 years old and I realized that my curse was being male. It killed me at that age, but I had to deal with it. So it is not that I am afraid that I wont be one of the boys. In many ways, I never was one of the boys. My concern is that the people I love will get hurt in my endevours. That is my BIGGEST fear.

[RobertaFermina]

As for the "reacting to the other guys" angle.

Guys will harp-on, needle, kibbits, and otherwise verbally abuse a guy who shows any vulnerability....its how we keep each other strong in between visits from the Wolly Mammoths, SaberCats, and Visigoth Hordes, or at least, the modern equivalents.

If you dress like a woman, and show up with all the confidence and self assuredness and claim your space in the room, periodically strut your Guy-Stuff Cred. (arm-wrestle, pick your nose....get creative!) the guys will eventually leave you alone, and relax......maybe even start taunting the Visigoths to watch out for that deceptively alluring woman with a bowling ball in her purse!

:rose: am I nuts or what? :rose: