Are crossdressers insulting to women?

[LindaMarie]

I'm married to a wonderful woman who, despite her attempts to be understanding about my crossdressing, wishes the whole thing would just go away.

There are a lot of reasons for her not being accepting, but here's one I'd like to hear your opinions about.

My wife thinks that my crossdressing is insulting to women. There's so much more to being a woman than the clothes and makeup, but by thinking that clothes and makeup make us more feminine, we reduce women to creatures to whom fashion and appearance are everything and are the essence of being a woman. Our attempts at looking like women is a parody of what real women look like and a gross exaggeration of what women think is important.

My knee jerk reaction is probably what a lot of yours is: one of the reasons we like to dress is because we love women and love how they look. If anything, there's an aspect of jealousy in some of our dressing. There's also an aspect of jealousy when we see a beautiful woman and think "she's beautiful" and "I would love to be able to wear that outfit and look beautiful, too."

I'm trying to get past instant reactions. I can understand part of what my wife is saying. Most women I know don't spend a lot of time obsessing over their appearance. They're too busy doing really important things like working, taking care of children, trying to keep in touch with friends and family, trying to figure out how to make the world better and probably spending too much time on taking care of other people and not enough time taking care of themselves.

Many of us crossdressers invert this by having a somewhat selfish attitude to crossdressing. We don't get dolled up so we can make a dish for the person down the street who's not feeling well or visiting an older relative in a nursing home. We mostly do it for the thrill (sexual or, for many older cds, a different kind of relaxed / energized feeling).

Still, I get that being a woman is not about finding that perfect pair of pumps and sending notes to girlfriends telling them how their new outfit is sooooo cute. But, there are aspects of being a cd that are. I don't think that just because we emphasize what we think are the fun things about femininity that that makes what we do insulting to women.

What do you think?

I'm also really interested in what real women think about this whole argument. As my wife has pointed out, the attitudes of other crossdressers may be just a bit biased.

[Jessika Paige]

i consider mine to be emulation of that which i adore. i love women to the extent that i am disssapointed that i am not one. i have always been jealous of women, in a good way. imitation is the highest form of flattery, no?

[Sarah Rabbit]

They say 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'. Perhaps your wife feels that CD's are invading her territory. Try and get your wife to visit here as a guest, and see what motivates us. She may learn a thing or two.

Sarah R. :bunny:

[charllote34]

I can understand if some GG, s would get upset but there is absolutley no malice in what i or we do , and certainly no offence is planned xx

[Jocelyn Quivers]

i consider mine to be emulation of that which i adore. i love women to the extent that i am disssapointed that i am not one. i have always been jealous of women, in a good way. imitation is the highest form of flattery, no?

You said it perfectly.:thumbsup:

I can somewhat relate on how some GG's show contempt for CD's. Or even engaging in things that are normal for GG's such as shaving legs. Which I have been told by several GG's that they don't approve of GM's doing that. I guess to some it's taken as an insult, or that womens clothes are sacred for GG's only and not meant for GM's regardless of the intent for wearing them.

[windycissy]

How do you gently tell your wife that this isn't about her?

[Pippilotta]

Au contraire: no greater compliment could be paid to women. However, let's face it: we are women in women's splendour, without menstruation, hot flashes, migraines, cellulitis, and the cultural need to be up to a 18 year old's physical standard. So, yes, there might well be some understandable resentment, although it likely lies on a rather unreasoned emotional level.

[Jackie67]

Then we on the other hand do women the way that they dress an insult to men, I say this because as I was in church today I counted only Three women in skirts or dresses, I know that when I was growing up I was taught to be dressed in an appropriate manner I never in my younger years saw so many women wearing pants not pant suits but frayed and ragged jeans to church, but then I guess GOD doesn't really care what you look like when in church, at least be respectable to others.
I know I will get a lot flack on this but, that's what this forum is for to get other oppinions.:rolleyes::straightface:

[Ruth]

It's a tough one to counter because it's based on feelings rather than hard facts.
Though I wonder if your wife has at some time seen a CDer (possibly a drag queen on stage) who was mocking or ridiculing some form of feminine mannerism. Something like that might have offended her very much and she may carry this over into feelings about CDers in general.
Just a thought.

[lisa_e_love]

I honestly and sincerely believe that the feeling of insult is more of an invasion of territory than an actual offense and, as such, has more to do with cultural notions of gender boundaries than anything else.

Reading on the board, a lot of SOs seem to get really irked if their CDing partner shaves his legs. I have also been in a relationship with a girl who was semi-supportive but when I shaved my legs once she said, "Don't do that again." This is kind of a case in point - body hair is a pretty personal thing. I figure that (and I realize this is a pretty odd parallel), just as many women (and men, including myself) demand abortion rights because they want control over their bodies, men should be able to control their own bodies to the extent that they should be allowed to decide if they want hair growing on their legs or not.

The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory - not that it mocks or degrades women in anyway. By shaving your legs you are participating in a time-honored tradition of that GG, her mother and all the women in her life. They shave their legs. They complain to each other about razor burn. They joke about how they haven't been shaving for a few days so they have hairy man legs and need to wear long pants to hide them until they get around to shaving them again. You enter into a world that the GG views as "women only."

So, I don't think it's that CDing necessarily degrades or puts down women (obviously if done with bad intent, anything can degrade women) it's just that it kind of tampers with the feeling of exclusivity that many women associate with all things feminine.

[Echo Logical]

Are Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan Insulting to women?

Seriously, their primary focus is on getting just that right look, and that cute outfit, and how to give your man just what he wants in bed, among other things that have very little to do with a womans day to day life. I have never seen a harried woman, wearing sweats and no makeup on the cover of those magazines.

If those magazines, with there primary focus on such a small portion of what it means to be a woman, are not insulting a woman, then why would a man trying to explore some of those same things be insulting?

Yes, we are limited by our biology and cultural norms to just how much we can experience what it is like to be a woman, but I do not believe that our interest in exploring the aspects that we can are in themselves insulting.

Is CD'ing insulting to women? I would have to say no.
Are some women insulted by CD'ing? obviously the answer is yes.

[StacyCD]

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men. The logic is the same so if it is valid in one case then it must be valid in the other as well. However, clearly most women wearing pants are not trying to 'impersonate' a man, whereas most often when a man is wearing women's clothing they are trying to impersonate a woman. However, if they aren't just clothes then the next time she wear pants, suits, ties, tell her she is looking too manly and you are insulted. This probably won't win you many sympathy points so don't really say it as if you mean it!

[Nicki B]

Not in my experience (of meeting a lot of genetic women)?

Fascination, interest, friendliness, occasionally jealousy - but they do appreciate that we understand more about their world and share in it? It's also quite usual for genetic women to be protective of us?

Of course the big line is crossed when it's a partner - that's a whole other ball game, where it's perfectly understandable that we're encroaching on their perceived space and roles and potentially looking too good while doing it.. :idontknow:

[immike]

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men. The logic is the same so if it is valid in one case then it must be valid in the other as well. However, clearly most women wearing pants are not trying to 'impersonate' a man, whereas most often when a man is wearing women's clothing they are trying to impersonate a woman. However, if they aren't just clothes then the next time she wear pants, suits, ties, tell her she is looking too manly and you are insulted. This probably won't win you many sympathy points so don't really say it as if you mean it!
I love to wear womens clothes,especially pantyhose,it feels heavenly

[Marcie Sexton]

I can't speak for the others, but I personally dress to suit myself...As I would if I were a GG, or perhaps some day as a transitioned girl...

But doesn't dressing as a woman or atleast mimicking their GG's or one they have seen during their life time the highest form of flattery...

Just my personal thought...

[Joy Carter]

Maybe some of us are women in a man's body, and feel more comfortable with our selves by dressing as women.

Ive heard a couple of GG's make statements, relating to their displeasure upon seeing me a Joy. That's on them, and in no way affects how I feel about myself.

[Marla S]

I think Lisa hit the nail on the head:

"The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory"

that is not an insult, but can be seen as an offense and competition.

[Rita B]

I remember telling my lesbian daughter about my desire to transition as a woman and express my feminine side. She came down on me like a ton of bricks. Her mother and I had been divorced for some time so we were not close at all. Anyways, she told me that I knew nothing about being a woman, about what women go through, and that I was insult to womanhood. We have not spoken since. That was over 20 years ago!

[Melinda G]

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better. It also demystifys women, and you begin to realize that when you see a pretty woman, much of what you are looking at is just window dressing. Short skirts, high heels, and nylons? No big deal. Hey, I can do that too.

[Priscilla Ann]

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better. It also demystifys women, and you begin to realize that when you see a pretty woman, much of what you are looking at is just window dressing. Short skirts, high heels, and nylons? No big deal. Hey, I can do that too.

I think this is true also, Melinda. How much trouble can I get into by agreeing with you?

[Stephenie S]

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

Let me try to put it this way.

Women hear you say, "I love women and I want to emulate them."

Then you get all dressed up, heels, stockings, girdles, wigs, makeup, slips, dresses, and nails.

Women think, "Wait a minute!" "If you really want to emulate women, why aren't you kinder, more nurturing, more understanding, gentler, and empathetic?"

"What's with the clothes?"

"Is that all you think of me?"

Whence cometh the insult.

[jennifer41356]

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

I agree with what Stephanie says. I have been to CD meetings and the girls there sit like men use the restroom like men and made no real effort to act like a lady accpet for wearing women clothes....I try to spend most of my free time as a lady and trying to act like a lady...the women I have met seem to like me and accept as a woman..i have been invited to places with female friends, I had one friend who asked me to go shopping with her to buy a new dress and we were at Nieman Marcus trying on 300.00 dresses and sharing the same changing room...truly one of my highlights:love:

[goofus]

I think only the GG's can answer this one ... :2c:

[Dee Talbot]

I think only the GG's can answer this one ... :2c:
Therefore, I shall.

I think that crossdressing in itself is not inherently insulting to women. I can see, as has been previously posted, that many CD's are dressing because they love and idealize women. So, in the generic sense, no crossdressing is not insulting.

HOWEVER...........:eek:

There are some CD's whose intentions may be pure, but whose carry out can be incredibly insulting.

Examples:

Messages that we GG's aren't living up to our potential if we aren't dressed a certain way are horribly insulting. We can't always wear what some CD's fantasize about when they think of feminine garb. Practicality keeps me from wearing a lot of the things that my CD SO wears. I am no less of a woman because of that.

Mimicry that misses the mark and is actually a hurtful parody can and is insulting. I know that again this is a fantasy ideal, but sometimes I see what some CD's feel is feminine, and it doesn't come across to me (and other GG's) as flattery. It says to GG's that you see us as cartoonish parodies and we may feel mocked rather than flattered.

Implying that only by having sex with a man can a CD truly feel like a woman is insulting. I have many women friends who have never been with a man. Either by choice because they are Lesbians, or because they never had the opportunity and probably won't. To say that a woman is only a woman if she has been sexual with a man is HIGHLY insulting.

Let me clarify this by saying a few things. I dont believe that most CD's mean to be insulting if they fall into these (or other) categories that GG's find insulting. I don't feel that any insult is intentional, which is why I usually won't call CD's on the insult. I think a lot of this is wrapped up in that dreaded pink fog. I am sure that most of the CD's who are wrapped up in said fog are perfectly reasonable and pleasant people when not befogged.

I agree with some that there can be "territory" issues. But, honestly, unless you suddenly buy some implants and lose an appendage.....we really can't compete. Because as good and passable as some of you may look, when the skirt comes off.....I have something you don't that will always trump you when it comes to the territory issues :heehee: (please take this statement in the vein it was intended.....smile a little ladies)

Consider also, wives (such as that of the OP) may have reservations because they associate CD'ing with Transvestism as personified by RuPaul and others. While I think RuPaul is a hoot, she is a little over the top and that can be insulting to some women. That isn't what GG's are really about.

Unless you are either Cher or Bette Midler. And they are in a class all their own :tongueout

So, easy answer, no Cd'ing isn't insulting. Complex answer, some of the behaviors can be.

[Edwina]

I tend to go with the "....sincerest form of flattery" way of thinking but I would also like to think that when I am fully dressed I tend to be more feminine in my movements and way of thinking.
Of course I can think that way too when I am at the mall in drab and look at all the beautiful clothes and shoes. :heehee:
:love:
Edwina

[jaina]

I really don't care who is insulted, or why they are insulted by how I live my life.

[crunchysoda]

I *can* see what your wife is saying. It's not about the clothes, the clothes are so superficial so to say you are emulating us by dressing, is in a way offensive.

To narrow down what it is to be a woman, to what we wear is insulting.

I *do* find a lot of fashion/beauty mags insulting, wouldnt it be great if there was a mag that said "You are great just the way you are dont buy this new makeup, or learn about the newest plastic surgery technique, or the newest fast 250 cal diet" ect ect.
BUT that wouldnt make $$.

I look at clothing cataloges, because I need some winter clothes but then ALL of the women in them are probably 30-50lbs thinner and 3 to 6 inches taller. I think why bother? There's no way I can look like that.

I feel bad for the younger girls who *think* this is normal so they starve themselves to try to fit into an image that is all an illusion.
I guess in some ways I am just like all the young girls, minus the starving myself.

I dont buy all those fashion/"women's" magazines though.

My day is consumed w/nearly dying in a car accident on Thursday, dealing w/chronic depression/mental illness, trying to take care of my 4yo old and just being. If only my life were so simple as to just worry about what "cute" outfit I "get" to wear tomorrow.

[Violetgray]

Are crossdressers an insult to women?

Well unfortunately I think the poor dear is making a few erroneous assumptions.. First and foremost..

1)That we define women by how we dress. But crossdressing is an outward expression of something internally feminine. Now what that may be exactly is debatable, but for me its an expression of my need to be beautiful. The only difference is, the feminine aspect is what is beautiful to me. Every man has a feminine side. CD'ing is just a need for each man to express his own femininity, something he is perfectly entitled to define. When she wants to look attractive does your wife put on a fake mustache, stuff a sock down her pants and belch alot? No, I'm willing to bet that she uses makeup, wears a bra, and puts on something flattering to her figure. This is according to her own definition of what makes her attractive, which she is entitled to. But so are we. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we are not defining womanhood, but rather that which is feminine in us.

That having been said, what I think most people fail to realize is that the feminine side of a person needs to mature along with the rest of us. This is true for real women too. That's why you have stores that cater to teenage girls, and then stores for older women. Girls tend to dress a certain way at a certain age, then they progress. With men for whom femininity is a larger percentage of the overall pie, this progression is just as necessary but stunted by lack of opportunity. CD's usually have a lifetime of being denied this opportunity to express, and often compensate by trying to make up for lost time. Do you remember the Michael Jackson lyric, "Its been my fate to compensate for the childhood I've never known?" Just switch 'child' with 'woman.' I remember when I finally got cleavage down, I was so happy about that that I was always wearing low-cut stuff, just because I could! My girlfriend said to me "God, you're like 14-year old girl! 'Hey everybody, I just got boobies so look at them!' " And she had a point. But eventually I didn't feel the need to as much and I moved beyond it. Eventually I even wore pants when dressed up. But it took time to be confident in my own femininity.

Now when she says that crossdressers emulate women poorly by obsessing so much over their appearance, I think that is a misinterpetation. I think that really we are so deprived of our own femininity that we become fascinated with little aspects that women take for granted. Keep in mind that CD's find women very beautiful, and women look like women even rolling out of bed first thing in the morning. This isn't true of us, we start at a handicap. She says that we look like parodies of women. We don't want to, so surely she cannot fault us for trying so hard? We know that we're not women, but we DO try to do them justice on some level!

I'm sure she's a wonderful person and you certainly could have done worse on the acceptance scale, I just hope I can help her understand a little better. Its not a matter of where we put women as a whole, just a matter of where we stand in relation.

[countrygirl]

No, I do not think being a crossdresser or crossdressing is insulting to women. I wish people could accpect others for who they are and not what they wear.......


Amanda

[Kate Simmons]

Problem is, some folks idealize the gender aspect too much and totally forget life is about people being people and we get hung up on appearance or apparent intentions. We are all together in this and there is no other planet to go to(that I know of) to get away from each other. Regardless of what we wear or what we are physically, we are all PEOPLE and we all have feelings. There are many ways to try and understand the feelings of others but the best way is honest and heart felt communication. That is why some have trouble seeing the forest, too many dang trees in the way, pretty as they can be.:happy:

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Are crossdressers an insult to women?

Well unfortunately I think the poor dear is making a few erroneous assumptions.. First and foremost..

1)That we define women by how we dress. But crossdressing is an outward expression of something internally feminine. Now what that may be exactly is debatable, but for me its an expression of my need to be beautiful. The only difference is, the feminine aspect is what is beautiful to me. Every man has a feminine side. CD'ing is just a need for each man to express his own femininity, something he perfectly entitled to define. When she wants to look attractive does your wife put on a fake mustache, stuff a sock down her pants and belch alot? No, I'm willing to bet that she uses makeup, wears a bra, and puts on something flattering to her figure. This is according to her own definition of what makes her attractive, which she is entitled to. But so are we. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we are not defining womanhood, but rather that which is feminine in us.

That having been said, what I think most people fail to realize is that the feminine side of a person needs to mature along with the rest of us. This is true for real women too. That's why you have stores that cater to teenage girls, and then stores for older women. Girls tend to dress a certain way at a certain age, then they progress. With men for whom femininity is a larger percentage of the overall pie, this progression is just as necessary but stunted by lack of opportunity. CD's usually have a lifetime of being denied this opportunity to express, and often compensate by trying to make up for lost time. Do you remember the Michael Jackson lyric, "Its been my fate to compensate for the childhood I've never known?" Just switch 'child' with 'woman.' I remember when I finally got cleavage down, I was so happy about that that I was always wearing low-cut stuff, just because I could! My girlfriend said to me "God, you're like 14-year old girl! 'Hey everybody, I just got boobies so look at them!' " And she had a point. But eventually I didn't feel the need to as much and I moved beyond it. Eventually I even wore pants when dressed up. But it took time to be confident in my own femininity.

Now when she says that crossdressers emulate women poorly by obsessing so much over their appearance, I think that is a misinterpetation. I think that really we are so deprived of our own femininity that we become fascinated with little aspects that women take for granted. Keep in mind that CD's find women very beautiful, and women look like women even rolling out of bed first thing in the morning. This isn't true of us, we start at a handicap. She says that we look like parodies of women. We don't want to, so surely she cannot fault us for trying so hard? We know that we're not women, but we DO try to do them justice on some level!

I'm sure she's a wonderful person and you certainly could have done worse on the acceptance scale, I just hope I can help her understand a little better. Its not a matter of where we put women as a whole, just a matter of where we stand in relation.

Everything here is spot on from my point of view, and I'll add that I have seen crossdressers DO things that might be considered demeaning towards women.

One example was a TS I used to know who had started on her hormone therapy. About 3 months in she made a comment along the line sof "Ohhh I just did an airheaded thing *giggle* The hormones are working and I'm becoming a woman faster than I thought".

I thought my SO was going to punch her right in the mouth for that.

*hugs*

Zara

[Sandra]

I personally don't think it's insulting but what I find annoying more than insulting is cders who seem to think that all ggs wear skirts up to their a*** and have to have makeup on and be dressed to the nines all the time, It aint like that.

[erickka]

Dee, I think you hit the nail on the head. I have heard that certain CD behaviors tend to tick off most GG's more than wearing skirts and heels. I love women, and just am jealous that I am not one (at times) but realistically, I respect the female role and would never want to make fun of it. That being said, I will continue to foster my utmost respect for women, and never intentionally hurt one's feelings, or tread on their territory. I still like being the strong shoulder for my wife and a lot of her friends. God bless them all.

P.S. Sandra, The tacky dressing that you mention in your post is one of the actions that I am speaking of.

[Tree GG]

How do you gently tell your wife that this isn't about her?

By bringing it to her, into a committed relationship, it becomes about her life as well.


Are Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan Insulting to women?

Hell yes, they are insulting.


If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men.

Ummmm, yes many men are insulted by that. Wonder why so many CDs bring that up? That comment is equally territorial.


I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better.

That comment exemplifies the biggest "insult" factor - competitiveness. You may or may not look better than "some women". Get over yourself. I don't much care for vain people - CD, male, female or otherwise.


Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

Let me try to put it this way.

Women hear you say, "I love women and I want to emulate them."

Then you get all dressed up, heels, stockings, girdles, wigs, makeup, slips, dresses, and nails.

Women think, "Wait a minute!" "If you really want to emulate women, why aren't you kinder, more nurturing, more understanding, gentler, and empathetic?"

"What's with the clothes?"

"Is that all you think of me?"

Whence cometh the insult.

I can not add to that - excellent! Thank you Stephanie!

[Shadeauxmarie]

The old adage "Clothes make the man" comes to mind. That was never true. Neither do they make the women.

I can't tell you why wearing women's clothing is relaxing to me. It just is. Is it a psychological thing? Sure! If it wasn't, then I would be able to achieve the same results no matter what clothing I wore.

I can understand how a GG can feel threatened by this. I can understand how a man can feel threatened by this. Perception is reality. Therfore, if a women or man believes crossdressing is insulting to women, then it is. For them. I don't personally believe crossdressing demeans women in any way.

Anyway, since crossdressing is thousands of years old, I suggest a person that has a problem with this learn a little more tolerance.

[Sheila]

The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory -

The real problem is that some just do not have a clue:Angry3:

[bi_weird]

I'd like to weigh in agreeing with those who understand why CDing can be insulting. Notice the phrase, "CDing can be insulting", not "CDing is insulting". I'm not generalizing here. (Btw I'm FTM...ish. I live mostly as the woman I was born as, but also have this boyish side I'm learning about.)
Honestly, the insult is part of why I stopped hanging around on this side of the board. It's not that everyone says it, but it's prevelent enough, comments like "I don't understand why women don't dress up more. They're so beautiful and it's just wrong not to show it off." Or the implication that the most feminine thing in the world is a pair of panties or a cute skirt. Yeah, those are feminine articles of clothing. But I feel more like a women when with a small child then when wearing a skirt. (And that's not just because of my own gender issues.) A real women is a person, not just a look. And most of you see that. But sometimes some of you seem to get lost in the pink fog and loose sight of that. While it's understandable, it's something that you should watch out for. Be aware that being female is more than the clothes one wears, and don't forget that, even though the focus on CDing tends to be more on what you can't have: the clothes you're not allowed to wear in public. Anyway just my thoughts.

[carolinewalker_2000]

Interesting question; I think my take is that to be insulting there would have to be a deliberate intention to insult or ridicle. For me I don't "choose" to dress; I have to. It is part of who I am. Therefore I can't see crossdressing as being an insult to women, nor, if I think about, is it a "flattery by imitation". Something inside of me requires me to express my feminine side through the way I present myself; and if that upsets some people - male or female - so be it.

Even if I had the will power to stop dressing - and I have ABSOLUTELY no intention of going down that path!! - I would still have a need to express my womanly side somehow.

[Cassy11]

I don't think CD'ing is insulting to women. I love the women in my life and have worked for several women as my superiors and have nothing but respect for them. CD'ing is a personal thing to me. What started me to do it , I don't know but it was very early in my life and I liked the way it made me feel. I can understand women getting upset by some who dress over the edge as in looking more like a hooker or a clown, but thats just as demeaning to CD's as it is to women. It's a personal thing to us and not a personal attack on your wife.

[docrobbysherry]

Has anyone ever watched your pet cat or dog, and tried to figure out what your pet is thinking? I haven't, and I haven't thot about what women think of CD's either. To me, women r like another species. I just can't figure their thinking process out! Reading posts by men, about what women think, is rediculous! I haven't a clue, and neither do most of u! If u really want to know, ask a GG. Good luck listening to the 1/2 hour+ answer! Yeah, I know that's sexist talk. Not appropriate for a CD site, rite? Hah.
RS

[Tree GG]

I don't think CD'ing is insulting to women. I love the women in my life and have worked for several women as my superiors and have nothing but respect for them. CD'ing is a personal thing to me. What started me to do it , I don't know but it was very early in my life and I liked the way it made me feel. I can understand women getting upset by some who dress over the edge as in looking more like a hooker or a clown, but thats just as demeaning to CD's as it is to women. It's a personal thing to us and not a personal attack on your wife.

Wow.....if it were all conducted with such compassion. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is a deliberate or personal attack on spouse, but some manifestations, attitudes, comments and presentations are not done as respectfully as you present the case. When that happens, you are right, it's demeaning all the way around.

Unfortunately, even the most loving spouse may not realize the effect of his words such as: "Creating the perfect woman" (that one is admittedly rare); "I look better than my wife when enfemme"; "Why can't women be more feminine?" None of those create the atmosphere of support and sharing that simply "I feel so wonderful dressed this way" does. Sad.

[GACountrygal]

I'd like to weigh in agreeing with those who understand why CDing can be insulting. Notice the phrase, "CDing can be insulting", not "CDing is insulting". I'm not generalizing here. (Btw I'm FTM...ish. I live mostly as the woman I was born as, but also have this boyish side I'm learning about.)
Honestly, the insult is part of why I stopped hanging around on this side of the board. It's not that everyone says it, but it's prevelent enough, comments like "I don't understand why women don't dress up more. They're so beautiful and it's just wrong not to show it off." Or the implication that the most feminine thing in the world is a pair of panties or a cute skirt. Yeah, those are feminine articles of clothing. But I feel more like a women when with a small child then when wearing a skirt. (And that's not just because of my own gender issues.) A real women is a person, not just a look. And most of you see that. But sometimes some of you seem to get lost in the pink fog and loose sight of that. While it's understandable, it's something that you should watch out for. Be aware that being female is more than the clothes one wears, and don't forget that, even though the focus on CDing tends to be more on what you can't have: the clothes you're not allowed to wear in public. Anyway just my thoughts.

Great post Bi, very insightful :thumbsup:
Nic

[goofus]

wouldnt it be great if there was a mag that said "You are great just the way you are dont buy this new makeup, or learn about the newest plastic surgery technique, or the newest fast 250 cal diet" ect ect.


There is a magazine like that...it's called "Ms."

[Kris]

I don't think dressing itself can be insulting to women, but the thought process at times can be.

Examples: It doesn't effect my wife , I am more womanly because of how I dress, oh my favorite, I dress and do girlie chores.....

But I don't let them bother me.. and there will be times when I am with someone and they look better than me..... and frankly I don't give a whoot!!

Hugs,
Kris

[Marla S]

Unfortunately, even the most loving spouse may not realize the effect of his words such as: "Creating the perfect woman" (that one is admittedly rare); "I look better than my wife when enfemme"; "Why can't women be more feminine?" None of those create the atmosphere of support and sharing that simply "I feel so wonderful dressed this way" does. Sad.
That's a good point, and it rises the question where do statements like this come from ?

Is it disrespect or the intention to insult someone ? No, IMO.

Is it thoughtless ? Yes

Is it a lack of empathy ? Yes

Is it a sign of aplomb ? Definitively not.

IMO it's a sign of tentativeness and desperate attempts of justification.

How serious should comments like this be taken ? :idontknow: We all should know better.

[Tree GG]

IMO it's a sign of tentativeness and desperate attempts of justification.

How serious should comments like this be taken ? :idontknow: We all should know better.

You're absolutely right, Marla. We should roll our eyes and walk away. Adolescent behavior/comments.

And I should probably walk away and let the phase pass (which it will, with or without me). I've nearly finished raising 2 children.....God help me, I don't have the energy for a 3rd.

[Nicole Erin]

Yes CD'ing is insulting to some women.
No matter what someone is or does, someone else is going to have a problem with it.

[Bernice]

If nothing else, this has been a thought provoking post!

I agree: No matter what someone is or does, someone else is going to have a problem with it. A child gives a teddy-bear a common Muslim name, and religious extremists call for a death sentence upon the child’s teacher. A hateful person from Topeka KS pickets the funerals of American troops because (before fighting a war) they do not first go door to door and kill all the homosexuals in this country. Hatred is not a family value, and clearly tolerance is very scarce indeed.

Is crossdressing insulting to people other than GGs? Should crossdressing be insulting? Should GGs be insulted? Should GGs be insulted by the crossdressing or by other aspects which typically accompany crossdressing? For crossdressing to insulting to women, does there have to be a conscious intent to be insulting? If so, is that intent relatively common or perhaps relatively rare? How should people who are insulted by crossdressing deal with the insult?

One generally has to make mistakes in order to learn from them. I’ll never forget once when I tried to apologize to my mother in law and explained there was no intent to offend, and she replied that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. From this I learned never to apologize to my mother in law. Was this the lesson she intended? I doubt it! In fairness, my own mother has been equally thoughtless and insensitive towards my own beloved, as no doubt have I.

If there is no intent on behalf of the insulter to commit insult, then who is in the wrong? Does the insultee not bear some of the responsibility for ensuring a constructive outcome?

As for crossdressing, given the clear possibility of insult, is it any wonder so many of us stay in the closet?

[Amanda FAB]

Simple answer:

NO ! :)

[lisa_e_love]

We seem to have taken the issue from whether or not crossdressing is insulting to whether or not acting feminine is insulting.

There are so many posts here that say that being a GG is more than just about the clothes. I don't think any CD thinks that being a GG is just a bed of roses, picking out outfits and trying out new makeup combinations. But that's what CDs are into - outfits and makeup. By selecting those aspects and experimenting with them, CDs like myself derive pleasure and a feeling of security, escape or relaxation. When out in public I try to act with feminine mannerisms because I enjoy allowing my feminine qualities to take over when I'm dressed.

But by dressing up, CDs are NOT saying, "Oh, look. I think being a woman is ALL fun." We are, for the most part, well aware of the economic, psychological and emotional problems that result from being oppressed and underprivileged for so much of American and world history. Our dressing is in no way a mockery or a commentary on that aspect of womanhood. It is selecting an aspect that we enjoy and participating in it as well.

[Alex!]

I think sometimes male-to-female crossdressers can, in fact, be insulting. I work very hard to make sure I look attractive and confident when en femme, which is to say I want to be respectful of myself. As a result, I feel I am respectful towards women.

[SweetCaroline]

From my experiences, from all I've seen, women seem to LOVE us. I have both a GG friend and a SO GF (somewhat) friend, and both are fascinated with me and my cross-dressing friends. When me and my SISTERS groups go out, we always get girls who want to have their picture taken with us, or dance with us.

Like I said they love us, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we are men who WANT to understand what they go through.

Think of it. A majority of women have husbands, SOs, or BF, who pay little attention to them and never do a thing to try and understand them when they present themselves as women.

We want to go shopping with them.

What women wouldn't want a husband like that.

[LindaMarie]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post. I've really enjoyed reading your responses. I really hope we hear from more genetic women, too. While I don't view my crossdressing as a mockery or insult to women, my wife does on at least some level. It's instructive to hear other peoples' take on this topic and helps my understanding of where my wife is coming from.

Thanks again and I look forward to more of your thoughtful responses.

[battybattybats]

Sigh....
I really am saddened that this thread has continued on so. Let's try a little perspective...

"Youth is wasted on the young"
Many crossdressers attitudes towards women not dressing the way they themselves would like to is no better nor worse than that statement.

"Femininity is wasted on the feminine"
Look at that sentence. It's all a matter of longing for what others have. Plenty of women don't care about the attributes and/or advantages that they have that I might desire. They take them for granted or they just don't put a lot of personal value on them. And fair enough too.

Kids at the skatepark a decade ago feeling insulted that some guys in their 20's and 30's turn up in baggy pants and with boards are no different from women upset because some CD has dressed up in womens clothes. Now if those older guys are not yet very good at skating or look less suited to the clothes the kids are more likely to be insulted and the same is true of women if the CD is less good at what they are doing or less well suited to it. And if the older skaters are mixing fashion that is 'not the done thing' amongst younger skaters well that's even more likey to be insulting.. and again if the CD goes against current fashion...

Some people who are goths year-round get upset with people who dress like that only for weekends or special occasions or halloween. Those who find goth a deep personal culture might get awefully upset with those who treat it as just a passing fashion. Likewise people who like dressing that way on halloween might feel it dreadfully inappropriate for the goth to dress that way on any other day. Or they might think it's ok for clubbing but not for going to the supermarket or to church.

You can see the same pattern again and again.
It's not a deliberate parody for goodness sake, it's just personal expression. At best this is serious emotional immaturity!

And there is a darker side to this...
Those who are physically more masculine looking are more likely to be considered 'insulting'. Those who are more fantasy or fetishistic in their dress again more likely to be 'insulting'. Those who aren't just breaking gender roles but also age roles. Those who don't try and pass. Those who are more androgynous. Those who co-opt negative stereotypes and turn them into affirmatative archetypes.. all are more likely to be considered 'insulting'.

So in this we are dancing around, and sometimes right over, the edge of sexism, ageism, ablism (in that someone born less able to pass for whatever reason, is discriminated against) and downright transphobia!

Just defining women in a way to then be able to define what would be insulting to 'women' could itself be downright sexist.

Not all GG's would fit other GGs ideas of what it is to be female for goodness sake!

At best this could be emotional immaturity and ignorance, on the part of some of the CDs with their atitudes to what most commonly constitutes womanhood and femininity perhaps (the trouble is determining if they are reflecting and embodying sexist stereotypes or are in fact responding to powerful cultural archetypes, especially misunderstood sexual ones), but particularly on the part of those who feel personally insulted by another persons inability to meet their standards or represent their personal idea of being female.

At worst this can be downright disgustingly bigoted.
If an 80 year old man dresses in a manner more commonly assosiated with an 18 year old girl and someone takes offense... that person might need to take a long hard look at their own sexism and agism!

[Zee]

Many of us dress to feel good about ourselves. If wanting to feel better about oneself is selfish, then I admit, I am selfish.

The attitude that says crossdressing is insulting is like saying a christmas tree is insulting. There really is not fundamental reason behind it, but on some level, somewhere, someone finds an ornamented pine tree offensive. Same on this level, a man dressed as woman is offensive.

The thing is many of the crossdressers on this forum seem to exhibit many
female qualities. Many of us are:

nurturing
compassionate
empathetic
kind
helpful
emotional

These qualities can be learned, but more often than not they are innate to our selves. Then again, there are probably some crossdressers who do not exhibit these qualities. And yet, even again, I know many women who are completely the antithesis of the above mentioned list.

All of us, male and female alike, are all good people and want only the best for others. "For our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's future, and we are all mortal." If wanting to be a woman to make ourselves feel good about life is the way we show it, so be it. That is how I will proceed.

[Alex!]

The concept that people should not be insulted or offended is honorable. Nevertheless, many people are. Recognizing this fact is a critical step when seeking a future of tolerance. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Individuality is an important component of our identity. Individualism is a religion of self and is ultimately destructive.

Put another way, the world ain't all about you. It's about you being part of the world.

[vivianann]

Therefore, I shall.

I think that crossdressing in itself is not inherently insulting to women. I can see, as has been previously posted, that many CD's are dressing because they love and idealize women. So, in the generic sense, no crossdressing is not insulting.

HOWEVER...........:eek:

There are some CD's whose intentions may be pure, but whose carry out can be incredibly insulting.

Examples:

Messages that we GG's aren't living up to our potential if we aren't dressed a certain way are horribly insulting. We can't always wear what some CD's fantasize about when they think of feminine garb. Practicality keeps me from wearing a lot of the things that my CD SO wears. I am no less of a woman because of that.

Mimicry that misses the mark and is actually a hurtful parody can and is insulting. I know that again this is a fantasy ideal, but sometimes I see what some CD's feel is feminine, and it doesn't come across to me (and other GG's) as flattery. It says to GG's that you see us as cartoonish parodies and we may feel mocked rather than flattered.

Implying that only by having sex with a man can a CD truly feel like a woman is insulting. I have many women friends who have never been with a man. Either by choice because they are Lesbians, or because they never had the opportunity and probably won't. To say that a woman is only a woman if she has been sexual with a man is HIGHLY insulting.

Let me clarify this by saying a few things. I dont believe that most CD's mean to be insulting if they fall into these (or other) categories that GG's find insulting. I don't feel that any insult is intentional, which is why I usually won't call CD's on the insult. I think a lot of this is wrapped up in that dreaded pink fog. I am sure that most of the CD's who are wrapped up in said fog are perfectly reasonable and pleasant people when not befogged.

I agree with some that there can be "territory" issues. But, honestly, unless you suddenly buy some implants and lose an appendage.....we really can't compete. Because as good and passable as some of you may look, when the skirt comes off.....I have something you don't that will always trump you when it comes to the territory issues :heehee: (please take this statement in the vein it was intended.....smile a little ladies)

Consider also, wives (such as that of the OP) may have reservations because they associate CD'ing with Transvestism as personified by RuPaul and others. While I think RuPaul is a hoot, she is a little over the top and that can be insulting to some women. That isn't what GG's are really about.

Unless you are either Cher or Bette Midler. And they are in a class all their own :tongueout

So, easy answer, no Cd'ing isn't insulting. Complex answer, some of the behaviors can be.

I agree with Dee talbot and the other GG's who have commented on this topic, I especially agree with Dee on the subject of having sex with a man to feel like a woman, I do not see how a cder can truely feel like a woman by having sex with a man, I am mtf transgendered and I do not want to have sex with a man. I know I will never know 100% of what it is like feel like a woman, I love and emulate real GG's, they are truely wonderful human beings, and I hope I dont insult or degrade women and I am sorry if I do. I dress modestly, to me looking like a **** is not feminine.
I also agree that we should not say women who do not wear dresses and are not feminine, that is very hypocritical, we have no right to say that, because we are not wearing pants all the time, there is more to femininity than wearing dresses. There are women that look quite sexy in pants. Just because a woman is wearing pants and a shirt it does not make her less of a woman.
For me I wish I had a female body, I have alot of feminine behaviors, and feminine legs and thats it. sorry I am off topic on that last sentence.
I had an unfortunate encounter last week when I was at the 7-11 when a woman came in and was offended by the way I was dressed, she asked the cashier to call the police to have me arrested for impersonating a woman. she told the cashier that I was scary looking, the cashier told her no she was not going to call the police, and that I was not doing anything to hurt anybody, and that she trusts me. (the cashier and I have become good friends over the past few month's.) The next day the woman contacted the owner of the store and told him that I was mocking women and she wants me banned from the store, the owner asked the cashier if she has a problem with me coming in dressed as a woman, she told him it does not bother her. He told her that I was still welcome to come in the store and that it is not an issue with him. he told the cashier that some peaple are unhappy and are offended by everything. I am glad to have the cashier as a friend, she is a wonderful woman. I personally do not intend to mock women, and I am sorry that the woman feels that way. that was a tense moment that day when that woman wanted to call the police.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

My wife thinks that my crossdressing is insulting to women. There's so much more to being a woman than the clothes and makeup, but by thinking that clothes and makeup make us more feminine, we reduce women to creatures to whom fashion and appearance are everything and are the essence of being a woman. Our attempts at looking like women is a parody of what real women look like and a gross exaggeration of what women think is important.

I'm also really interested in what real women think about this whole argument. As my wife has pointed out, the attitudes of other crossdressers may be just a bit biased.

I 110% get her point and fully agree and I am a genetic female.

It is NOT an act of honoring women that men dress like women.

It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.

That is not wrong or evil but yes, I get her point.

I've tried starting discussions about this but most CD'ers don't want to look deeper than below the surface (or at least that's the message their reactions here have given me).

I am an understanding "GG"; however, I do get her point.

Kew's-2

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I 110% get her point and fully agree and I am a genetic female.

It is NOT an act of honoring women that men dress like women.

It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.

That is not wrong or evil but yes, I get her point.

I've tried starting discussions about this but most CD'ers don't want to look deeper than below the surface (or at least that's the message their reactions here have given me).

I am an understanding "GG"; however, I do get her point.

Kew's-2


kewt, you've just touched upon my next "thinkin" question...and I would love to have this kind of discussion with you and pick your brain ;)

*hugs*

Zara

[Carin]

Lets face it. For every argument that could be applied to CDers being an insult to Women and womanhood, there is another that could be applied to CDers being an insult to Men and manhood.

Take defensiveness out of the equation. Who of us would do it as an affront to the opposite sex? Oh I do agree that for the most part we do not flatter women in terms of the success (and lack thereof) of our emulation. But not by design.

A woman who looks at crossdressing from her world may see lots of wrongs. A woman who can look at crossdressing from his world can surely see the personal challenges and turmoil that would drive someone to take this challenging path that must (and do) exist.

But Dee said it better.

....
So, easy answer, no Cd'ing isn't insulting. Complex answer, some of the behaviors can be.

I missed the additional pages of this thread on first draft.




It is NOT an act of honoring women that men dress like women.
Agreed
It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.
I assume you are referring to the "Clothes and makeup.. comment. Clothes and makeup help me to express my femininity. That is not the same as "Clothes and makeup make me a woman"

I've tried starting discussions about this but most CD'ers don't want to look deeper than below the surface (or at least that's the message their reactions here have given me).
I do

I am an understanding "GG"; however, I do get her point.

Kew's-2

I don't want to hijack this thread. To suggest that I do this for superficial reasons tears me apart. I don't presume to know why I do this, but it is not superficial. I would love to discuss this (amicably) if you care to expound your thoughts in a new thread (or by pm).

[Joann0830]

I have to say that most of us here emulate woman as we do this because of admiration, We wish that we could be a woman and so the closest and quick way is to be who we are here. We all try our best to look the part and try we do. A lot of woman buy magazines for fashion and they try to copy will say other woman, Why is is that woman will buy clothing with designer names and the answer is to look as good as the designing woman. I believe with all Great respect to all GGs out there that they should take what we do as a compliment as we not only admire them but try to copy them in every way.I remeber being with a female who enjoyed me being a CDM as I was very understanding and she also said to me that it was nice having a friend that was a live in to share with everyday. Joann:heehee::love:

[Marvina Martian]

I'm married to a wonderful woman who, despite her attempts to be understanding about my crossdressing, wishes the whole thing would just go away.

There are a lot of reasons for her not being accepting, but here's one I'd like to hear your opinions about.

My wife thinks that my crossdressing is insulting to women. There's so much more to being a woman than the clothes and makeup, but by thinking that clothes and makeup make us more feminine, we reduce women to creatures to whom fashion and appearance are everything and are the essence of being a woman. Our attempts at looking like women is a parody of what real women look like and a gross exaggeration of what women think is important.

My knee jerk reaction is probably what a lot of yours is: one of the reasons we like to dress is because we love women and love how they look. If anything, there's an aspect of jealousy in some of our dressing. There's also an aspect of jealousy when we see a beautiful woman and think "she's beautiful" and "I would love to be able to wear that outfit and look beautiful, too."

I'm trying to get past instant reactions. I can understand part of what my wife is saying. Most women I know don't spend a lot of time obsessing over their appearance. They're too busy doing really important things like working, taking care of children, trying to keep in touch with friends and family, trying to figure out how to make the world better and probably spending too much time on taking care of other people and not enough time taking care of themselves.

Many of us crossdressers invert this by having a somewhat selfish attitude to crossdressing. We don't get dolled up so we can make a dish for the person down the street who's not feeling well or visiting an older relative in a nursing home. We mostly do it for the thrill (sexual or, for many older cds, a different kind of relaxed / energized feeling).

Still, I get that being a woman is not about finding that perfect pair of pumps and sending notes to girlfriends telling them how their new outfit is sooooo cute. But, there are aspects of being a cd that are. I don't think that just because we emphasize what we think are the fun things about femininity that that makes what we do insulting to women.

What do you think?

I'm also really interested in what real women think about this whole argument. As my wife has pointed out, the attitudes of other crossdressers may be just a bit biased.

This is a tough one! My wife has known about my dressing for years but still kind of looks the other way when I do it. Kind of like "if I don't see it it dosen't happen".
I do think that some women just have been brought up that guys are supposed to act one way and girls another. When we invade their territory they get a little uncomfortable.
Fortunatly for me my wife likes my shaved legs (from being a professional cyclist for 17 years!) and likes it when I am clean shaven every where, but when I dress it makes her almost freeze up and get really quiet.

I guess that we just have to do our best to try and change their minds about us and why we do what we do!

:kiss:

[waspookie6]

From a GG married to a CD (recent revelation) - I'm not sure this is as much about insulting as it may be competition. A list of what women face all their lives and list men face all their lives. If it offers insight...that is all we can hope for I think.
*I use the word "man" and "men" as a general term.


Women are supposed to dress up, shave our legs and all that from a young age to catch the eye of a man. It does not mean we will not have our hearts broken in the process.

Men are supposed to show they can dress rugged and nice at the same time also showing a woman they are desirable as a husband. They are brought up with the 'hunter & gather' mindset and have to exhibit this to the men that surround them in their lives. Sometimes the expectation to "be a man" is as difficult as expectations to "be attractive to get a man".

Women venture out of the home and most must work as well. We end up having to compete with other women for the same job - and men too. Depending on the job it rarely comes to competency but the thinning of the herd comes down to one's sex. It's a harsh reality no matter how much people say "we've come along way" in that department.

Men don't always want the jobs they have - they get them because its just easier being a man than to be able to run a daycare center or something far more nurturing. Men are overwhelmed at the choices presented. Math skills, problem solving, delegating et al are supposed to be easy to them opening more job choices.

Women begin to have children. Most become very defensive overall - the demand of that instinct to protect their children including providing food, shelter, and clothing kicks in. Its all or nothing and again, other women will judge the Mom on how she is doing - whether she asked for that input or not.

Men are invited into their own children's lives by the bearer of their children. It does not matter how much they love them, they simply are excluded aside from pure exhaustion to change one more diaper for the day. This tips the scales away from the nurture man. They only get to show their son how to pee standing up, they don't get to give advice to their daughters how to not look like a tramp or too much like a tomboy.

As life changes a woman's body this seemingly endless propaganda to stay as young looking and energetic as possible is every nook and cranny of life. Menopause is horrific. So is the ever increasing lung cancer and breast cancer numbers among women and for f's sake! Women have to look good dying! Looking how you feel is again, out of the question by just looks from other women or looking at those who can pull off jeans, a blazer and heels not looking uncomfortable and under 5 minutes prep time can deflate a good day. Everything is a struggle...including feeling and being female.
If the wife stayed at home or worked part time, entering into the work force at an older age is defeating with every interview. You need a current education and employment history.

Men enter menopause (oh yes! they do too!) the hair falls out from the top, grows out of the ears or new eyeglass frames have to be bought to accommodate for eyebrows that could ensnare a wild boar. The tummy bulges and flab appears where it never did before. Men begin to discuss the latest pill on the market to make love longer or whenever - that was NEVER a problem before! The wind could blow and shwing! Now it stares sadly at the floor in hurricane force winds.

During war times this is even more pronounced. I think back to my Aunt who was a Nurse during the Korean war and my father (I was adopted) who became a CG Commander and the war they had *during* the war. My Aunt was the best field nurse and received medals, of course her younger brother had to be better than that in his mind. Grandma sewed clothing for soldiers and many of her friends worked in factories building warcraft. They were good at what they did but as soon as the husbands and sons came home, these women were relegated to being a "housewife". They were taught not only to be women but able to do everything in case the husband did not come home. Grandpa worked on diesel engines and did the rest of his life. He was never told to go home because his services were no longer needed.

You see, the war of the sexes has been going on for a very long time as has this weird societal influence. Those of us that are older were brought up very differently than the 20-30 somethings of today. They seem to share more and more tolerant of we perceive as differences. There are still some barriers and square boxes but overall they tend to use what talents they have together. I see this in my son and the girls he dates - he's had a very diverse sexual upbringing because I didn't want him in a square box. I find this conversation with many mothers of his age, we were adamant our son's be more sensitive to discrimination against them and others and to defend or break walls when they see them.

But for us...we are stuck in a way. As an older wife I feel my husband is a competition to not only earn a good income but have the body strength needed to do pretty much anything that needs to be done. He can change his looks if he wants - I'm stuck trying to desperately look remotely feminine.
It takes me an hour to wear a good matching outfit having changed clothes 5 times. It looks great on the hanger at the store, it looks like hell on me. Make up is difficult to get "right". Now he wants me to teach him how to do all that - waaaaaaiiiiiitttttt!!!!! I can barely do this myself and had to watch other women, then use books, then use the internet to get something remotely close that shows off my natural curves and facial features.
This has taken me years to figure out. My body, as a female, has changed so many times I can barely keep up. Now you, a man, want me to teach you how to look as good if not better in a short span of time?

I think if 'our' men took the time to learn on their own, to not try to compete with us but compliment us then there wouldn't be such a division of emotions. If our man does not over emphasise a feminine pose, I think we'd feel less weirded out. Only paid models pose like that - you ever notice your wife sit on the edge of the couch, back arched, head tossed back every single time she sits down? No. Not unless you paid her and even then, has she shied from the camera? Most will, do and have so you need to figure out what kind of life your wife has had first *before* dressing up.

Find a way to take the competition out of it. Find a way for her to be doing something she feel she is truly capable of outside the home and I'll bet there would be less resistance. There are probably a few men thinking right now about the kind of life their wives have had and their reaction when they came to them as CD'er.

This is really the one time us wives and SO's need for you as men to 'problem solve'. While it is a mostly foisted male trait, we need your help to do that first before the skirt and heels go on. Buy us spa days. Buy us massages. Buy us whatever it is you know we like that is rare and we've always said makes us feel more female. Indulge us and you will be indulged in return.
Really, you will.

[Lisa Golightly]

Every time I get called sir I'm insulted.

[battybattybats]

The concept that people should not be insulted or offended is honorable. Nevertheless, many people are. Recognizing this fact is a critical step when seeking a future of tolerance. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Individuality is an important component of our identity. Individualism is a religion of self and is ultimately destructive.

Put another way, the world ain't all about you. It's about you being part of the world.

But the world is made up of individuals. All making individual decisions. Interacting in complex patterns.
And individualism does not preclude altruism. In fact most individualists I know are fiercely altruistic.

Also putting the comfort of the community before the rights and needs of minorities and individuals can be a recipe for horrors.

[waspookie6]

Every time I get called sir I'm insulted.
So do I but its usually because I answered the phone immediately after waking up or have a head cold ;)

[Kelsy]

Is Cding insulting to women? I think it depends on the individual woman! Some dress in an overt caricature of a woman and I even find that offensive but there are many CDs that want to absorb the fine attributes of women. Not just the look or the outwardly physical but the wholistic propereies of being female - personality traits, emotional make up and reactions, The warmth and nurturing qualities. The better natures of being female. Woman have a natural inclination to these things Cd men for the most part are gentler and more in tune with these things but we are still men and there is a steep learning curve. The dressing is a beginning, If i look like a woman and begin feeling feminine my natural course is to try to discover the fine points of being female! All out of total respect and love of women.

Now I an certain that Cding is insulting, offensive and threatening to men who don't dress to the point of violence!

Kelsy

[Sheila]

At the end of the day I am not insulted, I am however frequently amused by the fact, that so many of you appear to need your heads removing from another part of your anatomy.

You may wear that which is deemed by society to be female clothing, but never ever will you ever come close to being. It has taken generations upon generations for us to evolve into what we are today, patterns handed down through generations of genes, and so you remain (CD's) males wearing dresses with not a clue.

Now this is just my :2c: from my side of the fence

[Nicki B]

It is NOT an act of honoring women that men dress like women.

I think to some, it can be - whether that 'objectification' is a good thing, is another matter..


It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.

If this was just superficial, we could choose not to do it. Yet however hard we try, the vast majority of us find it is a very deep part of us - it's 'hard wired', just like having red hair or blue eyes, or being left-handed?


Now I an certain that Cding is insulting, offensive and threatening to men who don't dress to the point of violence!

Don't you think the ones who find us threatening, are the ones who are rebelling against a desire in themselves, just like homophobia? :) :devil:

Those who are sure of their own masculinity don't see us as a threat..

[MJ]

if i may :- to answer the question i have to say no ..

IMHO i feel it's about attitude and respect is the key ..think twice post or say once .. what we say can be hurtful and sometimes we don't have a clue

[Angie G]

Some one once said Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :hugs:
Angie

[CarrieAnneEvers]

I honestly and sincerely believe that the feeling of insult is more of an invasion of territory than an actual offense and, as such, has more to do with cultural notions of gender boundaries than anything else.

Reading on the board, a lot of SOs seem to get really irked if their CDing partner shaves his legs. I have also been in a relationship with a girl who was semi-supportive but when I shaved my legs once she said, "Don't do that again." This is kind of a case in point - body hair is a pretty personal thing. I figure that (and I realize this is a pretty odd parallel), just as many women (and men, including myself) demand abortion rights because they want control over their bodies, men should be able to control their own bodies to the extent that they should be allowed to decide if they want hair growing on their legs or not.

The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory - not that it mocks or degrades women in anyway. By shaving your legs you are participating in a time-honored tradition of that GG, her mother and all the women in her life. They shave their legs. They complain to each other about razor burn. They joke about how they haven't been shaving for a few days so they have hairy man legs and need to wear long pants to hide them until they get around to shaving them again. You enter into a world that the GG views as "women only."

So, I don't think it's that CDing necessarily degrades or puts down women (obviously if done with bad intent, anything can degrade women) it's just that it kind of tampers with the feeling of exclusivity that many women associate with all things feminine.

I think you're so right about that. My ex wife would ask that I only shave my legs certain times in the year. But for me leg shaving is the first and most essential part of any cross dressing experience. Now that we're divorced I'm clean shaven almost all the time.

[Stephenie S]

At the end of the day I am not insulted, I am however frequently amused by the fact, that so many of you appear to need your heads removing from another part of your anatomy.

You may wear that which is deemed by society to be female clothing, but never ever will you ever come close to being. It has taken generations upon generations for us to evolve into what we are today, patterns handed down through generations of genes, and so you remain (CD's) males wearing dresses with not a clue.

Now this is just my :2c: from my side of the fence

So Jess has a clue.

Unfortunately, I read few others who do.

Listen up. Being a woman has NOTHING to do with clothing. Being feminine has NOTHING to do with clothing.

When you put on a dress, it does not make you feminine. It makes you a man in a dress. That's what CDing is all about. This is a CDing forum. CDing means wearing the clothes of the oposite sex. This is perfectly OK. And as I said earlier, many women actually find that endearing and kinda cute.

BUT, trying to say you are more feminine, just because you put on a dress (and everything else that goes with it), IS insulting to women. There is NOTHING inherently FEMININE about wearing a dress. Women are feminine when they are NAKED for goodness sake.

Being a woman is not easy. You have to deal with lower pay, expectations of running a household AND working, expectations of attractiveness, not being listened to, and sexual harassment EVERYWHERE you go, just to name a few. Having your man say he is becoming more feminine by putting on a dress can easily be viewed as insulting to women. The clothing is SUCH a small part of womenhood as to be ludicrous.

Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.

There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Marla S]

Hm :straightface:

I guess the insulting point is the usual "I am better than you" expressed as an generalization. That's not TG specific, that's general bad attitude.

I am sorry to say Stephanie, you are doing the same, by "defending" women the way you do. And I don't know whom you do a favor.


Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.
That's plain stereotyping. Neither all women do nor all men don't. Neither women nor men do it all at once and always ... at least I don't know any.


There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.
That's a generalization, with all pitfalls generalizations have.
Maybe I would have agreed with "clothes don't make you a woman", but saying it is insulting to "claim some aspects" is an insult in itself, because it IS some aspects, though not the whole bundle. It might be debatable what else is needed to earn the label "woman". That will depend on the definition. Clothes are certainly not enough, but remembering birthdays and cooking aren't either.

[Fab Karen]

I mostly agree with Dee Talbot. And others, that clothes don't make you feminine, just as clothes or a hairy body don't make you masculine. And it is a mistake to look at a GG or a male & pass judgement,"oh SHE isn't feminine..." or "HE isn't masculine..." most of us have both traits within us. At any moment a person can appear on the surface to be at odds with a stereotyped role.
If people say "all CD's are..." or "all GG's are..." etc., they foster ignorance which is divisive & leads to hatred. People are individuals.

[Kate Simmons]

Jess had it right. Unless we understand what our hearts are teaching us and listen to our feelings with this, we miss the point entirely.:happy:

[battybattybats]

You may wear that which is deemed by society to be female clothing, but never ever will you ever come close to being. It has taken generations upon generations for us to evolve into what we are today, patterns handed down through generations of genes, and so you remain (CD's) males wearing dresses with not a clue.

Now this is just my :2c: from my side of the fence

This may get a little complex for some but please everyone read it. It may well blow your mind!


In the nucleus of every nucleated cell of my body (which is almost half of the biomass of me as we are all more colonies of bacteria than we are human at all anyway. The un-nucleated cells of course being just red blood cells carrying oxygen) there is the mitochondria, the organelle that powers every biological function. I eat to provide building materials but even more so for the suger that the mitochondria uses to run. I breathe so that the mitochondria has oxygen to run. It is the power source that makes all animals different from plants and allows us to be mobile and active and complex. And what is in the mitochondria? Why the DNA of all my maternal ancestors and none of my paternal ones!

Human DNA is based around the female!

But what about the DNA that designed my structure? Well I have an x chromosome and a Y chromosome and there are active and inactive genes on each (and some will turn on and others off over the course of my life). The x chromosome is female. GG's have two x chromosomes.. I have one. The Y chromosome adds the variations that make males.

And during development we all start as female until a trigger causes developing organs to turn male or continue female development or sometimes to get stuck in between.

So Every cell in my body is powered by a storehouse of female dna. The DNA that defined my development was half female and some of the male half wasn't even turned on.

Now brain differences between males and females are slight and generalised. Plenty of men have brain structure that is more female than the average females brain structure and vice versa. It is in the brain that the instincts, experiences, memories and behaviours are all centred. The difference in brain structure between any two humans is greater than the difference between the average man and woman so that gender difference is one that exists only as vague averages. Huge proportions of men have female-style brains and vice versa.

So what does that mean? It means that :

1. We are all more colonies of bacteria than human (the bacteria are smaller so more of them fit in but there are more bacteria cells inside than human)

2. Of those human cells, we are totally powered by female dna

3. What little of men that is different in design than women is small

4. men are only slight variations of female anyway

5. we were all female for part of our time in the womb

6. our brains, the seat of who we are, is hardly different between male and female at all and huge numbers of each gender have brains that are closer to the average of the other gender or well beyond the average.

More of all people is bacteria than human. More of all men is female than male.

So alas, biologically we are not very different at all.
The rest is created by differences in life experience.

[Violetgray]

When you put on a dress, it does not make you feminine. It makes you a man in a dress. That's what CDing is all about. This is a CDing forum. CDing means wearing the clothes of the oposite sex. This is perfectly OK. And as I said earlier, many women actually find that endearing and kinda cute.

BUT, trying to say you are more feminine, just because you put on a dress (and everything else that goes with it), IS insulting to women. There is NOTHING inherently FEMININE about wearing a dress. Women are feminine when they are NAKED for goodness sake.

Being a woman is not easy. You have to deal with lower pay, expectations of running a household AND working, expectations of attractiveness, not being listened to, and sexual harassment EVERYWHERE you go, just to name a few. Having your man say he is becoming more feminine by putting on a dress can easily be viewed as insulting to women. The clothing is SUCH a small part of womenhood as to be ludicrous.

Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.

There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.

Lovies,
Stephenie

Stephenie I think you might be a bit confused. I think that perhaps we first need to agree on what it means to be feminine because you seem to have it confused with being female, which I don't believe is an actual requirement. I'm sure our FtM brothers will tell you that you don't have to be born male to be masculine. Kinda like what it means to be gay. Having sex with a man doesn't make you gay. wanting to have sex with a man makes you gay. Its defined by your thoughts, not your actions. So I believe that while the act of putting on a dress doesn't make you a feminine person, the fact that we want to, the fact that we have the desire to look pretty does make us feminine. That doesn't give us a womanhood pass, but it is something more that we have in common with woman than most men do. We can say this without claiming to be women, or to know what its like to be a woman. I think we have already established that there is masculine and feminine in everyone, so to imply that because we are men we can't be feminine puzzles me. If men by definition can't be feminine, what are so many of my Transgendered sisters getting beaten up out on the street for? I have yet to find a single person who says "Because I put on a dress, I'm a woman." What about those who feel their genders don't match their bodies? Does a TS know what its like to be a woman? Is an MtoF TS a true woman?

As for the "Start with being more empathetic" paragraph, I've done each and every one of those things, does that make me a woman? Its just plain predjudice to assume that because we are male we are none of those things, or that because someone is female they are all of them..

[Dee Talbot]

It has been posted many times here that "clothes don't make the woman" (or the man for that matter.) I have to agree 100% with this. I am as much of a woman in a pair of old jeans and a grubby t-shirt, working under the hood of a car with my husband as I am in a cocktail dress, makeup to the nines, and stiletto heels that could kill a man with a well placed kick. My husband is still all-man in a dress, but there is a more visible cue that he is in touch with his female side when he is wearing a dress (does that make sense? it did in my head) I think what I am trying to convey here is that I haven't lost any respect for the PERSON I am married to when he is presenting differently than the persona that society has boxed him into. Clothes are really just an outward affectation, symbol, or method of covering one's nudity. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I know that many are uncomfortable with the assertation that they are just clothes. But they are just clothes. (as pertaining to this discussion)

However, it's the reasoning, behaviors, justifications, psychology, etc. that are part and parcel of crossdressing that, for me, are subject to this discussion. I think it's important to separate the two subjects. There are some who will find the idea of a dude in a dress insulting. I don't happen to agree with this line of thought, but I am not going to tell someone else what they are allowed to think and feel.

I personally don't think that being a crossdresser makes a person selfish, self-absorbed, thoughtless, or any other label we might place on someone who appears to be acting in a manner that some....GG's for example....may find insulting. I think that those who do act in such a fashion would probably be just as insulting in a pair of manly pants, cowboy boots, and wearing a Burt Reynolds mustache. I do feel that taking a man who is an a$$ in drab and putting him in drag, will simply leave you with an a$$ in drag.

It's not about crossdressing.

It's not about the clothes.

It's about who the person is at the core to begin with. JMHO.

[Carin's Wife GG]

It has been posted many times here that "clothes don't make the woman" (or the man for that matter.) I have to agree 100% with this. I am as much of a woman in a pair of old jeans and a grubby t-shirt, working under the hood of a car with my husband as I am in a cocktail dress, makeup to the nines, and stiletto heels that could kill a man with a well placed kick. My husband is still all-man in a dress, but there is a more visible cue that he is in touch with his female side when he is wearing a dress (does that make sense? it did in my head) I think what I am trying to convey here is that I haven't lost any respect for the PERSON I am married to when he is presenting differently than the persona that society has boxed him into. Clothes are really just an outward affectation, symbol, or method of covering one's nudity. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I know that many are uncomfortable with the assertation that they are just clothes. But they are just clothes. (as pertaining to this discussion)

However, it's the reasoning, behaviors, justifications, psychology, etc. that are part and parcel of crossdressing that, for me, are subject to this discussion. I think it's important to separate the two subjects. There are some who will find the idea of a dude in a dress insulting. I don't happen to agree with this line of thought, but I am not going to tell someone else what they are allowed to think and feel.

I personally don't think that being a crossdresser makes a person selfish, self-absorbed, thoughtless, or any other label we might place on someone who appears to be acting in a manner that some....GG's for example....may find insulting. I think that those who do act in such a fashion would probably be just as insulting in a pair of manly pants, cowboy boots, and wearing a Burt Reynolds mustache. I do feel that taking a man who is an a$$ in drab and putting him in drag, will simply leave you with an a$$ in drag.

It's not about crossdressing.

It's not about the clothes.

It's about who the person is at the core to begin with. JMHO.

Thank you for putting into words what I have been thinking.

Louise.

[chrissietoo]

This is a pretty interesting question, and there are some great responses.

I think for me, there are two aspects to dressing.

First, it's a fetish. :thumbsup:
Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification. Yes. I like bras, they turn me on. And pantyhose, and lipstick. I've known women who got turned on by guy's hands, by sweaty clothes, and leather chairs.

Go figure. As far as I'm concerned, a fetish is just a kink, and is neither insulting nor complimentary toward women. And our culture has made femininity, the kind you can buy, the most desirable commodity around. Not surprising guys would like lingerie, too! If women feel insulted because guys talk like women then perhaps the insult has come from advertisers and marketing geniuses, who have turned womanhood into a commodity.

Then, it can be a deeper fetish. :thumbsup:
....an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.

That's seems a bit over the top, yet I deeply identify with women and feminine qualities. I don't think I AM a woman, yet I have had many extremely moving experiences dressed as a woman. Most cultures, also, have some recognition of this, even ceremonies where men dress and imitate women.

Most of us also began dressing before puberty, and I would conclude from that that the desire to dress isn't primarily sexual. For many of us dressing allows us to express feminine qualities of kindness, softness, caring, and sensitivity that men in our culture are not "allowed" to express. My guess is that it's not uncommon for women to be merely tolerant of the dress, but very much in love with the soft and gentle guy who emerges once he's inside it. :hugs:

...enough. i'm going to put on my bra, have a glass of wine, and enjoy the lipstick mark on the glass....:2c:

[ericalynncd]

waspookie6 hit the nail on the head.. competition.

[Stephenie S]

Stephenie I think you might be a bit confused. I think that perhaps we first need to agree on what it means to be feminine because you seem to have it confused with being female, which I don't believe is an actual requirement. I'm sure our FtM brothers will tell you that you don't have to be born male to be masculine. Kinda like what it means to be gay. Having sex with a man doesn't make you gay. wanting to have sex with a man makes you gay. Its defined by your thoughts, not your actions. So I believe that while the act of putting on a dress doesn't make you a feminine person, the fact that we want to, the fact that we have the desire to look pretty does make us feminine. That doesn't give us a womanhood pass, but it is something more that we have in common with woman than most men do. We can say this without claiming to be women, or to know what its like to be a woman. I think we have already established that there is masculine and feminine in everyone, so to imply that because we are men we can't be feminine puzzles me. If men by definition can't be feminine, what are so many of my Transgendered sisters getting beaten up out on the street for? I have yet to find a single person who says "Because I put on a dress, I'm a woman." What about those who feel their genders don't match their bodies? Does a TS know what its like to be a woman? Is an MtoF TS a true woman?

As for the "Start with being more empathetic" paragraph, I've done each and every one of those things, does that make me a woman? Its just plain predjudice to assume that because we are male we are none of those things, or that because someone is female they are all of them..

You HAVE done each and every one of those things? Or you DO each and every one of those things. Clearly it doesn't make you a woman. But neither does putting on a dress make you feminine.

I'm not confused at all. I am quite clear.

The question asked was, "is CDing insulting to women?"

I answered the question clearly, twice. No, CDing is NOT insulting to women.

Then I tried to explain what IS insulting to women.

What IS insulting to women is a man trying to claim some aspect of womanhood by dressing up in women's clothes. That's all. Simple, not hard to understand if you think about it a bit. Try.

Stephenie

[crusadergirl]

I don't see it as insulting to women that we dress like them at all.
But like i others have said we all do it for different reasons. I don't dress to mock women i do it b/c i enjoy that other said of me. Plus its not easy to act like women do when you grow up as a man. So women wear pants i don't take that as insulting at all so they should think its insulting if i wear a skirt are a dress.

[battybattybats]

If what offends some women is men trying to claim womanhood just by wearing the clothes alone... and no-one seems to be doing that.. then women are being offended by a missperception of what CDs are doing?

[Jazzmine]

Listen up. Being a woman has NOTHING to do with clothing. Being feminine has NOTHING to do with clothing.

Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.

There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.

Stephanie, being "the mother" can be done by both sexes and often is in todays world. I have done this for my son from age 2 1/2 to now (he's 21yrs now and thankfully gainfully employed) while running a medium size business. Life has been hectic at times but very rewarding. I believe I have done a good job on all of counts of your motherhood list above.

My wife gave me an anniversary card recently which thanked me for being empathetic, gentle, considerate, strong (emotionally), and -the part I liked most - a good soul mate and partner.

I also wear dresses occassionally to express inner emotions I am feeling.

So now, from your post, I can assume I am almost the complete female - except for the you know whatsit down there.:D

Do you find that insulting?
Well to help you out, I do not consider myself a female. I am proud to be a male or female. I also feel gifted to feel feminine sometimes as I do. And I feel that it is insulting to have these actual feelings discounted. To me they feel real. A woman cannot know that I do not "feel" female or feminine. For all either of us know, I may very well be right on the button. The only difference is that mine may be fleeting and yours permanent, because I have other important roles to fill in my life as a male. Once again neither of us know for sure, though.

My invitation to you is that instead of us both getting insulted, how about we explore the common ground and enjoy it. Teach me how to be a better femme so I can be a better person. I'll teach you a few masculine traits you may want to adopt. We can start off talking about disposable diapers (we call them nappies here in NZ) if you wish but that really would be a side issue until we got down to our personal feelings and opinions. Then I think you would discover we have more in common than not. Because we are both humans and come from the same genestock many moons ago!

:hugs: Jazzmine

[Nicki B]

I think that those who do act in such a fashion would probably be just as insulting in a pair of manly pants, cowboy boots, and wearing a Burt Reynolds mustache.

Now... you reminded me of the last time I went out for dinner (there were seven of us, all dressed like this - well, we thought it was funny...)

:hiding:

[Stephenie S]

Dear Jazzmine,

No, hon, I'm not insulted.

And I'm willing to bet that your SO does not feel insulted by your putting on a dress. From your description, my post was not aimed at you.

Your mention of nappies brought back a memory and a smile to my face, though. Let me tell you about it.

Years and years ago, I was an young and inexperienced mom (dad?) with my first infant (alone). (I had been through other infants with my partners, but this was my first by myself. I was living in a small Newfoundland outport town (200 people). There were NO disposable diapers available, all I had was cloth, and certainly no diaper service, which was what my parents had had. Suddenly I had to deal with dirty diapers with no indoor plumbing, and no running water.

In Newfoundland there was a product called Nappie-San. You suposedly just let the nappies soak in this solution overnight and they came out looking fine in the morning. OK, but I had LOADED nappies to deal with and NO flush toilet. I DID, however, have an old style wringer washer with an open top and a big agitator in the tub. So, I would load the dirty nappies into the washer, add some hot water I heated on the wood stove (converted to naptha), and let them agitate for a few hours. I could then pump the whole brown mess down the kitchen sink drain into the ocean (ICK!!, but remember I was young and alone and EVERYONE'S sink drained into the ocean) (So did the toilets of the few in town who were lucky enough to have toilets). Then I could dump the poopless nappies into the Nappie-San in a 5 gallon (about 21 liter) bucket and let them soak over night.

Well, it worked. So that was my (somewhat embarrassing to look back on) solution to the problem of what to do with dirty nappies.

As I said, the memory brought a smile to my face. Thanks.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Stephenie S]

Now... you reminded me of the last time I went out for dinner (there were seven of us, all dressed like this - well, we thought it was funny...)

:hiding:

Well, sweetie, it IS funny.

Lovies,

[Michelia]

I feel guilty about it sometimes. It may appear that by crossdressing we are saying this is what being a woman is all about. And it my imply that we believe women should be feminine in their attire, when maybe it is not so important to them, as it surely has little with being a woman.

As a male, I love to see women looking good and dressed up. I do not expect it, nor do I demand it. My SO is a good example of this. She does not care about clothes too much. It is a trivial matter to her. But she understands it is a big deal to me. I do not ask her to get dressed up, yet since I have been dressing up, she has shown more interest in doing so, to my benefit!

It is old hat to most GGs. They grew up making up and dressing to look good. It is not terribly exciting for many. It remains though, for many. With the complicated lives most modern women live, why spend time and effort dressing, when they are not longer expected to? We never got that chance in the first place.

I know I may get hammered for this. But I really do believe in spite of the above, that many women do want their husbands to be a bit more romantic and to spend more time with them. And maybe their love lives might benefit from being a little sexier from time to time and that includes dressing and making up and surprising their husbands with occasional different looks.

It is funny that my wife loves me to look good as a man from time to time. She also adores it when I look good as "her" girl. Yet she rarely makes an attempt at dressing up herself. But I see her trying it now. I think it is coming...Yeah! Hooray for crossdressing! It may still save some ladies (and their counterparts) from their drab wear!

Michelia

[Dee Talbot]

Now... you reminded me of the last time I went out for dinner (there were seven of us, all dressed like this - well, we thought it was funny...)

:hiding:
Hmmmmmm. You are really working the 'stashes :) But somehow I don't see Burly Burt joining you in dressing :tongueout

[Jazzmine]

Thanks Stephanie

Nappie-San ... yes I still use the stuff - good for removing stains on most things!
I used real nappies too for my son, initially. Your story made me laugh because I had similar experiences flushing (scraping) poops down old tubs - at least I had fresh running water! Yuk and Yuk. Things we do.

Doing that stuff would be a good initiating program for CD-mother wannabe's do you think? We could start a community service using us CDrs to run round and do the nappie service for new mothers. Nah, wouldn't work, not enough glamour!!!

Beating the sh!t out of nappies is an insult to both sexes I reckon, but the reasons we do it are commendable.

Hugs Jazzmine

[charlie]

Hello Linda Marie!
I am the selfish person that your wife is talking about. I dress to excite myself and go "ahh" in the mirror. I love the smells, feel and visual attraction I get from looking in the mirror at myself when dressed. And because I have spent so much time trying to get there, I go out to get more excitement for myself. She would be right if she was talking to me!

[Raquel June]

I have to agree with a lot of what I see here. Most CDs want to be feminine in a much broader sense than just what they wear. Women should be flattered, and likewise they should be much more inclined to be insulted by a GG who behaves inappropriately.

That said, there are those who claim to be CDs who are insulting to everybody. I'm talking about the middle-aged bald biker with a huge mustache who puts on panties and stockings and starts firing off lewd instant messages to people in CD groups. That's simultaneously insulting to all that is masculine and feminine.


Many of us crossdressers invert this by having a somewhat selfish attitude to crossdressing. We don't get dolled up so we can make a dish for the person down the street who's not feeling well or visiting an older relative in a nursing home. We mostly do it for the thrill (sexual or, for many older cds, a different kind of relaxed / energized feeling).

I find that extremely depressing. Seriously, I feel absolutely terrible after thinking about that for a few minutes. All I can think of is that 99% of CDs here would love to make a dish for the person down the street, and be the sweetest girl ever. I don't really need to get into the tragic details of why that is hardly possible for most. But I'll have my friends over to grill and have a beer, and I'll visit friends and relatives in the hospital or nursing home whenever I can.

[Jazzmine]

Dee I agree with everything you said. And I take your point about (everyday) clothes just being a cover for our underlying nudity.

On another level though the costumes we wear are more than just a body cover. We all use clothing as a symbol of who we are. CDs are no different.
E.g. Please excuse the crassness but soldiers from USA would not want to be seen dead in an Iranian soldiers uniform. It's not what they stand for. Which simply goes to show that our costume is very important to us as individuals and collectively.

When a man puts on a dress he does so at considerable risk (I know you know most of them so won't attempt a list). He has fought every piece of logic his brain (in my case, like Pooh Bear, a very little one) can throw at him, to override it, and still persue dressing up. The lingerie and the dress are a symbol of what he feels he must be or become, even if it is for a few minutes, because that is who he feels he is at that time.

There is no mockery in this dressing. There might be bad fashion sense and technique. It is also mostly a hopeless affair because once 12 o'clock comes Cinderella turns back into a pumpkin. Yet we still feel compelled to carry on.

How this can be conceived as insulting to woman is beyond me. Like I said I have a rather small brain. CDs love their girl time. It's precious to them. It engenders special feelings. For a short time it erases aggressive testosterone and replaces it with softer female gender therapy. GGs may mock our feelings as male sourced. But is it? How do you judge? I certainly do not feel "masculine" when I am in femme mode, it's quite different. So what am I feeling? I want and try very hard for it to be feminine. I have some estrogen coursing through my body like every male does. Could it be I can get glimpses of being a female?

I think this is more fascinating than insulting.

:hugs:Jazzmine

[battybattybats]

That said, there are those who claim to be CDs who are insulting to everybody. I'm talking about the middle-aged bald biker with a huge mustache who puts on panties and stockings and starts firing off lewd instant messages to people in CD groups. That's simultaneously insulting to all that is masculine and feminine.

Stupidly naiive... in thinking that everyone is wanting to have lewd instant messages sent to them sure... but insulting to all that is masculine and feminine?

So for those who think some cding is insulting.. only those who get close to passing, who dress conservatively and who try and be just like 'women' are not insulting to women? Only those whose dressing is not sexual are ok?

That's the crossdressing communities equivalent of the burka. Really it is.

You'll only be acceptable and not an insult if you fit within these parameters of acceptability....

Well as a person whose nature has me burdened and blessed with a desire to express aspects of each gender I must have the right to express both of these seperatly and simultaneuosly if that is my desire. So any suggestion that I must hide my duel nature in either one gender or the other, and then only in a conservative and effective manner, is more than merely insulting.

Who could even define what it is to be a 'woman'. Is the lesbian friend of mine a 'woman'? She wears much more masculine clothes than I do. Her hair is more of a mens haircut than mine. She doesn't find anything insulting about peoples crossdressing.. is she any less a woman?

Do I have to take on the flaws of the genetic females in this society too? Should I binge drink in my teens? Should I shoplift? Should I say one thing to one friend only to say another to another? Should I secretly compete with all my friends? Should I be sexist? Should I try and tear down the self esteem of those I feel envious of? Should I make constant derogatory comments about groups of people to whom I do not belong?...... these are all things that are more common amongst women in my community than men. It's not true of all women I know of course, far from it, but then what exactly is?

No, it is not the CDing that is insulting.


All I can think of is that 99% of CDs here would love to make a dish for the person down the street, and be the sweetest girl ever. I don't really need to get into the tragic details of why that is hardly possible for most. But I'll have my friends over to grill and have a beer, and I'll visit friends and relatives in the hospital or nursing home whenever I can.

I thoroughly agree with you. And I also have met genetic women who would never be so compassionate or if they did it would only be for appearances. Other genetic women have been some of the most kind and good people I know, but then so have some of the men.

Kindness, empathy, decency, these are not gender-specific traits. Expression of emotion except under certain circumstances has culturally become so though.

[Raquel June]

Stupidly naiive... in thinking that everyone is wanting to have lewd instant messages sent to them sure... but insulting to all that is masculine and feminine?

So for those who think some cding is insulting.. only those who get close to passing, who dress conservatively and who try and be just like 'women' are not insulting to women? Only those whose dressing is not sexual are ok?

That's the crossdressing communities equivalent of the burka. Really it is.

You'll only be acceptable and not an insult if you fit within these parameters of acceptability....

Believe me, I've got plenty masculine traits when I'm wearing a skirt, and I'm not disparaging anyone just because they're not embarking on the road to full-on gender reassignment.

What I mean is that leaving the massive biker 'stache on and thinking you're feminine just because you're wearing a little lingerie -- while putting zero actual effort into being attractive (and I'm thinking of a particularly scary pic I got from a seriously hairy guy nearly buck naked on his bed) I must say -- is an insult to femininity. And the fact that he thinks he can just put it out there like that with no attempt at tact is an insult to masculinity.

[Dee Talbot]

Who could even define what it is to be a 'woman'. Is the lesbian friend of mine a 'woman'? She wears much more masculine clothes than I do. Her hair is more of a mens haircut than mine. She doesn't find anything insulting about peoples crossdressing.. is she any less a woman?

Do I have to take on the flaws of the genetic females in this society too? Should I binge drink in my teens? Should I shoplift? Should I say one thing to one friend only to say another to another? Should I secretly compete with all my friends? Should I be sexist? Should I try and tear down the self esteem of those I feel envious of? Should I make constant derogatory comments about groups of people to whom I do not belong?...... these are all things that are more common amongst women in my community than men. It's not true of all women I know of course, far from it, but then what exactly is?

No, it is not the CDing that is insulting.

I agree with you completely Batty. But then, it boils down to what I have been saying all along about men. And I will say it includes women also. In humankind, we will find a variety of differnent people. Some will be compassionate, some hurtful, some insulting, some uplifting, etc. etc. etc. Our little community here, and the larger CDing community is going to have the same breakdown of personality types.

It's not the CDing that is insulting. There are some personality types that are going to rub other personality types the wrong way. The insulting behaviors they engage in are irrelevant to CDing. It is only because we know these individuals from the crossdressing community that we can possibly draw parallels between dressing and asinine behavior. But, as I said before. Take that a$$ out of the dress and he is still an a$$. I don't think the dressing causes the CDer to behave like that. It's just that this person expresses themselves in an insulting manner regardless of gender presentation. I am 100% certain that the individuals who annoy me most here, would annoy me just as much if I met them in drab on the street. Who knows......maybe I have.

If any of you recognize me as the person who was looking at you with disgust and annoyance on the street.....then it's you I am talking about :tongueout

I would like to throw this out too, in the interest of equal time. I am sure that I, as a GG, annoy plenty of people here. Does that mean that being a GG is automatically annoying or insulting to CDs? No, of course not. It does however mean that my personality rubs some people the wrong way. Does this also mean that they are in the wrong for their feelings toward me? Of course not.

To quote an 80's classic sitcom song:

"the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some." :D :p (annoying....ain't it???)

There are a few drummers on here that I find personally insulting. Most are on ignore. They ARE insulting to me, because I FIND their attitudes to be insulting. The definition of insult is: To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.. I think we need to pay special attention to the first of these: gross insensitivity. How many of us are guilty of being insulting by our insensitivity. It is no less insulting if unintended. The insult is there. By being unintentional, it becomes easier to excuse and forgive the insult. It does not however, negate the insult.

What does this epic post boil down to? This bears repeating.

It's not the CDing that is insulting. It is random people who behave in a grossly insensitive, insolent, or contemptuously rude manner whom are insulting. There are some CD's who behave this way, but the crossdressing is irrelevant.

[chrissietoo]

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women think, "Wait a minute!" "If you really want to emulate women, why aren't you kinder, more nurturing, more understanding, gentler, and empathetic?"

"What's with the clothes?"
"Is that all you think of me?"
Whence cometh the insult.

I've been looking through the gg's comments, and this one seems to be something of the essence. It agrees with my experience, as well.

When my g/f discovered me, she at first angry :Angry3: , then tolerant. We'd go out to movies and I'd wear lingerie under my drab. She would go along because she liked the sex afterward.

She didn't like my absorption in dressing. After a while I relaxed and was less absorbed, and she did too. She discovered that she really loved Chrissie, who was kind and gentle and sweet (and like to clean house :thumbsup:). She began to relate to Chrissie, whether Chrissie was wearing women's clothes or not. :hugs: She began to support and nurture the 'inner' Chrissie.

Chrissie was VERY happy about this, and dressing became less urgent, and more fun. Now, I can be kind and nurturing and sweet--whether I'm dressed or not, and I'm a better person. The sex is good, too. :thumbsup:

[jaina]

Believe me, I've got plenty masculine traits when I'm wearing a skirt, and I'm not disparaging anyone just because they're not embarking on the road to full-on gender reassignment.

What I mean is that leaving the massive biker 'stache on and thinking you're feminine just because you're wearing a little lingerie -- while putting zero actual effort into being attractive (and I'm thinking of a particularly scary pic I got from a seriously hairy guy nearly buck naked on his bed) I must say -- is an insult to femininity. And the fact that he thinks he can just put it out there like that with no attempt at tact is an insult to masculinity.

Please elaborate on "putting effort" into gender identity. Maybe you can redeem how shallow and narrow that paragraph sounded.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Well. for a bit of a laugh...

I did a photo shoot last sunday with a professional photographer who wanted more Dark Faeries for his portfolio. It was lots of fun.

His girlfriend walked up to me more and said:

"I don't know what is more insulting to me as a woman. The fact that you are a guy under all of that, or that you look better in a dress than I do"

Having read this thread a few days ago when it started I had to stifle a laugh ;)

*hugs*

Zara

[chrissietoo]

His girlfriend walked up to me more and said:

"I don't know what is more insulting to me as a woman. The fact that you are a guy under all of that, or that you look better in a dress than I do"

Having read this thread a few days ago when it started I had to stifle a laugh ;)

*hugs*

Zara

VERY cute and endearing. You go, gurl! :hugs:

[Raquel June]

Please elaborate on "putting effort" into gender identity. Maybe you can redeem how shallow and narrow that paragraph sounded.

Please tell me you're joking. Maybe you can redeem how rude, cold, judgmental and humorless your response sounded.

The type of people I was talking about -- which I originally only mentioned briefly because I thought it'd be obvious I was talking about total creeps who are an insult to everybody -- are not people with gender identity issues to be respected. They're people who have no respect for anybody who are just looking for a sexual thrill.

Regardless, it's not shallow to want people to put effort into things. When I see a fat girl pouring out of low-rise jeans, I'm not thinking, "Good for her!" like a lot of confused people are. I'm thinking it's an insult to all the beautiful girls who shop at Lane Bryant. I'm thinking she needs to wear something that fits. Maybe I'm a jerk, but I'd much rather be in a world full of jerks like me than people who just don't care.

[Nicki B]

If I expect people to respect me, then I have to start by respecting other people - whether they look outside the norm, whether they're
fat, or whatever...

The worst thing that could happen to this world is that everybody becomes the same?

[KarenNY]

We seem to have taken the issue from whether or not crossdressing is insulting to whether or not acting feminine is insulting.

There are so many posts here that say that being a GG is more than just about the clothes. I don't think any CD thinks that being a GG is just a bed of roses, picking out outfits and trying out new makeup combinations. But that's what CDs are into - outfits and makeup. By selecting those aspects and experimenting with them, CDs like myself derive pleasure and a feeling of security, escape or relaxation. When out in public I try to act with feminine mannerisms because I enjoy allowing my feminine qualities to take over when I'm dressed.

But by dressing up, CDs are NOT saying, "Oh, look. I think being a woman is ALL fun." We are, for the most part, well aware of the economic, psychological and emotional problems that result from being oppressed and underprivileged for so much of American and world history. Our dressing is in no way a mockery or a commentary on that aspect of womanhood. It is selecting an aspect that we enjoy and participating in it as well.


Absolutely agree with you here... my wife would be the first to say being a woman is no bed or roses -- it's hard work being a wife, mother, employee and all the things that go into running a household! So she doesn't have time to dress in all the clothes that I enjoy wearing, the skirts, blouses, dresses, skirtsuits and such (she usually wears tops, sweaters, pants and slacks).

I crossdress because I have always enjoyed the clothes -- I love how they feel, how they look and how I look in them. Having feminine mannerisms and looking like a woman in the clothes is just part of who I am when I am presenting myself as Karen -- in other words, I certainly couldn't act like a guy in the same outfits and expect to pass/blend in. Since I got into my 30s, I have branched out to wear casual women's clothing in public and dress for the situation, but I never was one to dress in ****ty attention-getting clothes like low-cut tops and short skirts, etc., anyway.

I think we all dress *at times* like the ideal woman we would like to be. And yes, I do like shopping for outfits and shoes as much as I like wearing them. I don't think that's mocking women, it's just something I like to do. And my mother, who was well aware and very accepting of my crossdressing from a young age, made sure that I dressed and acted in an appropriate manner so I wouldn't draw undue attention to myself, nor would I be construed as mocking womanhood in my dress or actions. When I'm Karen, I'm just me, but a little more feminine me in nicer clothes. And a closer shave.

[KandisTX]

In all honesty the answer to this question depends entirely on who you are speaking to. Some women will say they are insulted, while others will tell you they are flattered. For myself, when I dress to go out, I am trying my best to pass as a female and not be obviously a man in a dress. This takes hard work and LOTS of practice. Just as women put in lots of work to glam themselves up to go out, we CDs have to do just the same, only we have more work because we must cover up the rugged features and such that just comes with being a testosterone laden male.

Kandis:love:

[Sarah Doepner]

I've been able to speak with a few women about why I dress and how I try to emulate what I admire about women. They have been appreciative of the effort and seemed to understand. However, I'm sure there are some women who wouldn't sit still long enough to listen to me. It has to be a personal response to what they see. Some will accept and some will condem you, so it really comes down to how you feel about yourself.
If you feel you are doing your best to understand what you are doing, enjoy yourself and present yourself as "lady-like" as you can, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Those who don't accept you will have to find their own peace.

[Kate Simmons]

If I expect people to respect me, then I have to start by respecting other people - whether they look outside the norm, whether they're , or whatever...

The worst thing that could happen to this world is that everybody becomes the same?Exactly Nicki. Like there aren't enough "Borg" around already. It takes guts to be yourself these days and I have a great deal of respect for those who are, no matter what their "persuasion" is.:happy:

[Carly D.]

Are cross dressers insulting to women? hmmm, well my answer would be my answer to are cross dressers (female to male) insulting to men? let's face it there are twice as many women that can and do get away with dressing in mens clothing, weather it is wearing a t shirt or shoes or whatever.. face the facts, women can get away with it because they won't call each other "fag" or whatever they feel as the ultimate put down because women are after all cooler than men are when it comes to accepting these types of things... I think also that women are more accepting of men dressing in their clothes.. are they insulted?? some are I'm sure.. well most say they are, but when the glare of the day light is dimmed most women probably think it would be ok...

[Tammygirl]

Much to my "Shagrin", We can not ever no what a GG go through.
We can have a baby we do have cramps or pms. However I am told that some TS's do have a form of PMS sometimes, Hormone! But the thrill of wearing great clothes and getting away with alot is woinderful.
I some time don't understand why real women complain! I think it is because we take the "TIME" to look our best! I have seen many women who have taken the time to look there best and look great! My Mother was a perfect example of that she took "THE TIME" to look great before she left the house EVERYTIME ALWAYS!
We do it for fun and enjoyment we make the time! I understand that people in general have no time at all. But if we took the time to do and be our best then what a world it would be!

Love Tammy

[Nicolette01]

Time for a newbie to get into the fray here, my opinion is that crossdressing is not insulting to women. Of course, you may say that I am biased, but maybe there could be some other issues here. Maybe the spouse feels threatened as if the cd'ing is taking attention away from her, or in a sense "cheating" in a way. Just a thought, definitely not the answer.

[corrinediane]

If a women is insulted bu OUR desires to dress as we feel it's there problem.:2c:

[battybattybats]

Much to my "Shagrin", We can not ever no what a GG go through.
We can have a baby we do have cramps or pms. However I am told that some TS's do have a form of PMS sometimes, Hormone! But the thrill of wearing great clothes and getting away with alot is woinderful.


I thought several years back a technique was developed where a man could carry an embryo in the abdominal cavity far enough for the baby survive. As far as I know it just hasn't been used yet.

[Raquel June]

I thought several years back a technique was developed where a man could carry an embryo in the abdominal cavity far enough for the baby survive. As far as I know it just hasn't been used yet.

As I recall there was a Dr. Alex Hesse who did just that in 1994.

[Dee Talbot]

I thought several years back a technique was developed where a man could carry an embryo in the abdominal cavity far enough for the baby survive. As far as I know it just hasn't been used yet.


As I recall there was a Dr. Alex Hesse who did just that in 1994.I wish I had known of this before I carried all of our children. I wouldn't have minded "sharing the load" with Barb! :tongueout

[Nicki B]

Well over a hundred posts now, and most of the answers given are from transfolk - whereas the only people who can really answer the question are women? :strugglin

[Zee]

In today's fast-paced world there seems to be a greater tendency for people to act aggressively toward each other. Some are quick to take offense and respond angrily to real or imagined affronts, and we've all experienced or heard reports of road rage or other examples of rude, insensitive behavior.

Unfortunately, some of this spills over into our homes, creating friction and tension among family members.

It may seem natural to react to a situation by giving back what is given to us. But it doesn't have to be that way. Reflecting on his horrendous wartime experiences, Viktor Frankl recalled: "We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way" (Man's Search for Meaning [1985], 86; emphasis added).

That is noble behavior and a high expectation, but Jesus expects no less of us. "Love your enemies," He said, "bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

Im not sure any gender is able to answer this... it is only the individual who has these concerns that can truely give us the answer.

[Margot]

I can't see that dressing as female is insulting. We suffer from envy if anything. However; female partners might find it insulting to them as they may feel demeaned by the fact that they think it might be their fault they can hold you to masculinity.
AS for wives reaction I can tell you most would probably wish it would go away. Take my wife who is very very supportive of my need to dress and I do dress alsmost 24/7 now. If I asked her does she wish it would go away I positive her answer would be yes.
Unlike fetish pleasures this is a lifestyle for us. I not only walk the walk I am involved in most feminine acitivities at home and I enjoy very much my more femme side as does my wife.
I hope you don't mind me droning on.
Hugs to all
Margot

[Christine Kelly]

Thanks for shedding some light to this thread.
Most of which you state above, I whole heartedly agree with!

[pattysn]

Mine likes it and fully supports me.

[Brianna1]

I started at the beginning of this thread tonight and got as far as page 3, I'd had what I thought was a different approach to this question and couldn't wait to put my :2c: and it's getting very late. I will go back and read the rest, but for now apologies if I missed a bit and am only repeating what someone else has said...has anyone considered that the reason why we crossdress is not so much to be like women but instead to get away from what it means to be a man? Would that be less of an insult to GG's because we are trying to be genuinely like women? I know for me there are times when I don't like to be associated with the things that men do. It's not the only reason for me to dress as I do but it is certainly one !!

[Fab Karen]

I just think that if you wanted to flatter women through imitation... why not imitate women in roles of power/strength?

I guess I just don't get it... and I probably won't.
It's not something done to flatter women, it's done for personal emotional enjoyment, just as some people change their hair color/style. And some women LOVE shopping. Some hate it. Some women love high heels. some don't. It's the diversity of being human. All women are not alike, & enjoying "girly" things is not a crime.
If you think all CD's think that way ( household chores being "feminine" etc. ) you should read more of this site for example & discover the reality.

[FeeFee]

Well over a hundred posts now, and most of the answers given are from transfolk - whereas the only people who can really answer the question are women? :strugglin

I'm a GG and currently going through just this struggle. It's not the c/ding that bothers me, it's whether the motive is personal or sexual. What's the purpose of dressing up and going out... to see your girlfriends, or sexual liaisons? I hope I don't offend anyone, my feelings are still a little raw at the moment...
I also don't like being pestered about what *I* wear... I'm not going to don a short skirt, pantyhose and high heels just to grab a loaf of bread.
Each to his/her own and, on that note, there are some beautiful ladies on here whose legs I would kill for :happy:

[battybattybats]

I propose that the idea that crossdressing is insulting to women is itself insulting to women, to men, to the intersexed, to transsexuals, to freedom and to sentience everywhere.

It either suggests that one gender or the other is demeaning, that femininity is demeaning in men or that femininity itself is demeaning, it suggests that sexual diversity is demeaning, that being between genders is demeaning, that being different is demeaning, that to transgress conformist doctrine is demeaning, to be free is demeaning.

Nope, I'm sorry but I can't think of a way that crossdressing could be demeaning without that notion being demeaning to one or more of those groups, in fact to most and maybe all of them.

In fact I can't see how even fetishistic and provocative crossdressing in public (within legal/ethical bounds) can be intrinsically demeaning without demeaning most of that list.

[Chloe Smith]

What do you think?

I'm also really interested in what real women think about this whole argument. As my wife has pointed out, the attitudes of other crossdressers may be just a bit biased.

Hi.
My name is Chloe and I am a new GG here. MY BF is a CD.

I hope I am not out of line posting this.

I can only think of one time when I am insulted by what other people wear. I may think someone is strange or different or fashionable for what they wear but I don't feel insulted by it. Its them not me wearing what ever they are wearing. The only time I have real feelings over what someone is wearing is when a GG dresses like a ****. But then again that's them not me and should not reflect on me.

I may base my opinion of YOU on what YOU are wearing but it does not change my opinion of my self.

What is feminine? In beauty school we did makeovers and we always just try to make women look more feminine because a woman looks more beautiful when she looks more feminine. The problem with a women looking feminine is sometimes you get way to much attention from men so we tone it down to a comfortable level.

I can see where some GGs could think a man dressing feminine is because he is looking for a man because that is one of the things GGs do to attract a man. My BF says he only likes women and I believe him.

Chloe

[CamillaCD]

I don't think you were out of line, Chloe. Just wearing women's clothing shouldn't be insulting to women. I do the best I can to be a fine lady when I (not very often) venture out. There are manners and views/opinions that are insulting, but you don't have to wear a skirt to do those or have those views.

[Daphne7]

As like all other people i am insulted by various things, and each person has their own list of things that they find insulting.

Personally as a GG i am not insulted by CDing/CDer's, (good thing for my hubby!). I understand that his dressing is not meant to slight me or women in general; he dresses for himself.

I agree with some posts regarding the actions/mannerisms that some CDer's may engage in while dressed. Those actions/mannerisms are things that i would find offensive if ANY person did them. *note insult is in the eye of the beholder* *note insult would be taken regardless of gender*

But the original post seems to convey that the wife is insulted in a different way--in an all-encompassing type of -how could my husband be a CDer- which is a huge hurdle.

I've been married for a couple years and found out a few months ago about my hubby. I can say that your wife has to decide for herself what she is willing to do and accept considering the twist that the relationship has taken.

In the end while she make take your CDing as insulting, you certainly don't intend for it to be, so wouldn't it be nice if she were to give you the benefit of the doubt?

After all you could tell her the same thing- that her being unaccepting of this aspect of yourself is insulting to you. Think back to your wedding vows-the crux of wedding vows is an agreement to support and stand by each other for the rest of your living lives.

Has anyone else noticed how unkind we can be to the ones nearest and dearest to us?

[Nicki B]

I propose that the idea that crossdressing is insulting to women is itself insulting to women, to men, to the intersexed, to transsexuals, to freedom and to sentience everywhere.

It either suggests that one gender or the other is demeaning, that femininity is demeaning in men or that femininity itself is demeaning, it suggests that sexual diversity is demeaning, that being between genders is demeaning, that being different is demeaning, that to transgress conformist doctrine is demeaning, to be free is demeaning.

Nope, I'm sorry but I can't think of a way that crossdressing could be demeaning without that notion being demeaning to one or more of those groups, in fact to most and maybe all of them.

In fact I can't see how even fetishistic and provocative crossdressing in public (within legal/ethical bounds) can be intrinsically demeaning without demeaning most of that list.

:yt: :clap::clap::clap:

[Rachael Warren]

:yt: :clap::clap::clap:

Adds mine!

:clap::clap::clap:

[Joanne f]

To tell you the truth i fined that as a bit of an odd question as all i am doing is dressing the way i like, how can that be insulting to anyone, if people do not like the way i dress that is just a preference not an insult, it would be like saying i insult cows or pigs for wearing leather, or a sheep for wearing a sheepskin coat, so no in my opinion it is not insulting to women just because i enjoy wearing the same type of clothes as some women wear, they wear men's clothes some times and i would not even consider that to be insulting to me, but that could have some thing to do with the fact that as far as i am concerned i am only perceived to be a male by others where as i know different.
If anything and i am only saying IF it could possibly be looked on as being insulting to men the way some dress, it would be interesting to hear from are transmasculine friends what their view would be on this .


joanne

[MJ]

regardless of who we are trans-men , trans-woman , genetic woman (gg)or genetic men (gm) .. we would be biased because we accept who we are this is our extended family that cares . it's the other f.a.b in the real world that count .. and some are not happy campers .. JMHO

[MsToriJones]

I am going to reply with out reading all other replies so that I reply from my mind and not influenced by any other answer.

I am gg and I am NOT in any way shape or form insulted by any of you. Now I am a bit jealous of some with them legs that are prettier, or better hair but certainly not insulted. I have always believed in "to thine own self be true" so to be insulted for someone being true to their self, I would be a hypocrite wouldn't I? I think some are more jealous than anything and don't know how to express it. Think about this, you and your wife go out dressed up as women a guy flirts with YOU because you look better than your wife. That would make most fems feel crappy. I don't fear that for my hubby would make an ugly woman no matter what he did, he is a VERY hairy guy and has too many VERY masculine features, having to shave many times a day to keep the shadow off.

anyway I digress

[CaptLex]

in my opinion it is not insulting to women just because i enjoy wearing the same type of clothes as some women wear, they wear men's clothes some times and i would not even consider that to be insulting to me, but that could have some thing to do with the fact that as far as i am concerned i am only perceived to be a male by others where as i know different.
If anything and i am only saying IF it could possibly be looked on as being insulting to men the way some dress, it would be interesting to hear from are transmasculine friends what their view would be on this .


joanne
Not sure what your question is, Joanne. Are you asking (of the transguys) whether we think it's insulting to men that women wear their clothes sometimes, or that WE wear men's clothes? Please clarify. :raisedeyebrow: