About Our Wonderful FtM Brothers

[GypsyKaren]

I'll tell you right from the get go that this is going to be one hell of a rant, and yes I'm pissed off. This is not directed at all of you, but the sad fact of the matter is that there's way to many here who need to get real and open their eyes and their hearts to our brothers, so those of you that don't need to hear what I'm going to say can relax and nod your heads in agreement.

Notice how I said "brothers"? Believe it or not, not all Transsexuals are MtF, there's a hell of a whole lot of FtM's out there too, genetic women who are males inside. Here's something else you may find hard to believe, they feel the same way about this as we do, they suffer all of their lives trying to fix the wrong like we do, they subject themselves to living in a very unkind world as their true gender like we do, and they put themselves through the risks and pains of hormones and surgery like we do. There's way to many MtF's out there who feel like they have a lock on this, well guess what? Wrong!

I am sick and tired of seeing them treated like they don't exist, I am sick and tired of seeing them treated like their feelings don't count, and there will be Hell to pay from me if I ever see one more remark about how "easy" they've got it compared to us or any other rudeness directed towards them. Easy? Let me tell you something, and I hate to burst bubbles here, but you think you've got it tough? They've got it tougher than you'll ever see, and they handle it with dignity, grace, and respect for others, to bad you don't see that.

I'm sure if you were to ask any of our brothers, they'd tell you this...it's a whole lot easier for a genetic male to physically transform into a woman than it is for a genetic woman to physically transform into a man, it's a lot harder for them to fight Mother Nature than us. It's a lot easier for us to cover things up than it is for them to add things on, that's just a fact of life. We can do a lot of clever things with clothes and make-up to disguise male features, a lot more than they can do, but they still have the guts to live their lives as their true selves, and for that they command my respect.

I just went through SRS, and as hard as it was, our brothers have to go through something tougher. Take a look at this (http://www.ftmguide.org/grs.html) if you want an eye opening glimpse of what they have to go through, it makes my surgery look like a walk in the park. They do it because they have the commitment to be themselves, just like we want for ourselves, and they have an honor that also commands my respect.

I'm a Super Moderator here, which means I moderate and have controls for everything on this site except for the private F.A.B. Forum and The Boy's Clubhouse, and I see just about everything that's posted on this site. I've been doing this for two years now, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a FtM member say anything rude or disrespectful about anyone else, but I see that everyday from MtF's. I think I might have had to step in one time because of a FtM member breaking the rules, and I'm talking two years here, but I have to do it several times a day, everyday, on the MtF side. I'm not saying they're all lollipops and rainbows, but they still show respect and compassion for others, and I would really like to see them granted the same courtesy, I don't think that's asking to much.

I'm asking all of you to please treat them as they treat you, and to also mention our brothers in your posts instead of just your sisters. I am asking you to treat them with the kindness they deserve and have earned the hard way, and I am asking you to open your eyes and your hearts to them. I have so many wonderful and dear friends who are FtM, My CaptLex (I always call him "My Captain" out of my respect for him), Kieron Andrew (who never hesitates to offer help or a shoulder to lean on), Sir Trey, ZenFrost, Adam, Felix, mistunderstood, justto name a few. I have learned so much and gotten so much from them, and I am truly blessed to have them for friends.

That's all, end of rant, do what you want, PM me an F-you, I don't care because I said something that needed to be said, if you're smart you'll take it to heart...and for all those who didn't need this, I know who you are and I wasn't talking about you...you all take care.

Karen Starlene :star:

[CaptLex]

Thank you so much for that, Karen. :hugs: I'm so glad you said it 'cause you put it so much better than I could, and my pleas for acceptance and inclusion amongst the TS community here sometimes falls on deaf ears. As you said, it's not everyone, but there are enough people here that either want us to keep our issues to ourselves, or constantly make us feel like our situation can't be as serious to us as theirs is to them. I think we can all learn from each other as we're all in the same boat (or ship, as it were ;)).

Thanks again for setting the record straight. Much love and respect from me and the boys. :love: :koc:

[mistunderstood]

Thank you.:bighug:It is nice to feel included. Thank you. Sis:clap:

[~Seana~]

Hello Gypsykaren I dont post much honestly this board gets tiring and Ihave to take it in spells but I do hear quite a bit of the transmasculine issues from my partner Tierganshaw. I feel your frustration, from what's been conveyed to me. Just ....well thanks for having the courage to stand up.

Amanda

[Tristan]

Thank you. :hugs::love:

[ZenFrost]

All I can say is :bighug:

[SirTrey]

Karen....Thank you SO much for that....We all appreciate your friendship and support more than you know....You are one hell of a lady! And MY respect for you just grows more and more....:) **Trey**

[DanielMacBride]

:clap: Thank you Karen :hugs:

:love:

Daniel

[KrazyKat]

Thank you, Karen. :gh:

I hope this opened some eyes of members who are so busy huddling in their own little world, they miss the golden opportunity to learn from others and then share it back. I see so many post who are so busy whining, "Poor Me" and pointing at everyone else to blame, they forgot the only thing that is responsible, the mug that looks back at them in the mirror every morning with toothpaste drooling down their cheek!!:eek:

I'm wishing for love and understanding from friends and family here at CD.com this Christmas!! :love:

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Thank you so much for that, Karen. :hugs: I'm so glad you said it 'cause you put it so much better than I could, and my pleas for acceptance and inclusion amongst the TS community here sometimes falls on deaf ears. As you said, it's not everyone, but there are enough people here that either want us to keep our issues to ourselves, or constantly make us feel like our situation can't be as serious to us as theirs is to them. I think we can all learn from each other as we're all in the same boat (or ship, as it were ;)).

Thanks again for setting the record straight. Much love and respect from me and the boys. :love: :koc:

Yes Indeed! Its sort of sad when you hear of this type of thing happening. None of this is an easy thing for any of us. Heck, I'm not even transistioning, but I know a heck of a lot of people who are. All of them and you really earn my respect for taking that step to being everything you can possibly be.

Heres to sharing the journey together!

*much hugs*

Zara

[Kieron Andrew]

Karen...Thank you, and love you lady!!:hugs::love:

Karen is right, we're just men trying to right the wrong that mother nature did to us

Merry Christmas to you and yours

[Deborah_UK]

Top post Karen.

I had to admit until a couple of years ago I was unaware that FTM transsexuals were around in larger numbers than I had previously thought. In the UK I knew of Mark Rees and Dr Stephen Whittle, but other than that the guys were really not on my radar, however since I joined a nationwide UK Civil Service (a:gender) support group I have met several FTM civil servants, and they too have had to stand up for their rights and what they believe in.

The pressures that transmen get from family and friends is no different to the pressures transwomen get - its hard for us all, so we need to be strong together.

So, more power to your elbows guys.

[John]

Thankyou for doing this Karen :happy: It's good to know we can get backup once in a while. :hugs:

[Wendy me]

Karen your 100% right on i have said it before .... the MTF'S want respect and understanding then also with the FTM'S you might show them some respect and understanding ......

a simple matter of thinking before typing in regards to every one here we are people that in some way all come here for support and understanding ...... lets all try that and think a bit.....


remember respect and understanding for every one ..... after all .... if not here ..... how are we ever going to get the rest of the world to accept us.........????...

[kerrianna]

Nice post Karen. :hugs::love:

I love it when you get all fiery. It's kind of sexy...wait, I'm not...oh, yes, I guess I am...yeah...it's sexy. :happy:

It's too bad it has to be said and said and said, but I do like the way you pointed out how much harder it IS for them. That's totally true in a lot of ways.

I was talking to a transitioned transman (well, he's a man) who runs a transhealth unit and he was telling me that medical procedures are really advanced and great these days, "particularily going your way, MTF." and it reminded me of, once again, how much easier it is for us. Mainly because of biology, but maybe not without the politics of power involved too.

So yeah, it makes my blood boil too when I see them being dissed, because these guys all do show courage and respect and consideration. I think it's really cool that we get to know men like them, because they do represent the best of guys if you ask me.

And no, I'm not just sucking up to get a kiss, although...:battingeyelashes:....wait...Kieron will run in and yell for "CAROL!" again.

I guess a hug will do. :hugs:

[Adam]

wow!! thankyou :hugs:

[Siobhan Marie]

Karen, thank you so much for posting that.

I think the world of my friends on here and would never be disrespectful or rude to anyone on here.

The boys do get pushed into a corner like they don't matter. It's not fair, it isn't and it stops right here and right now.

I thought that we were here to help each other and to be there for each other, be it MtF or FtM. All any of us are trying to do is to right a wrong that was caused by Mother Nature.

Boys, I'll fight your corner for you as well. Lots of :love: and all the :hugs: that I can send to you all.

Karen, thank you again honey, I certainly got the message.

:hugs: Siobhán x

[GypsyKaren]

And no, I'm not just sucking up to get a kiss, although...:battingeyelashes:....wait...Kieron will run in and yell for "CAROL!" again.

I guess a hug will do. :hugs:

Keep your mitts off Kieron, he's all mine...

Karen Starlene :star:

[Kieron Andrew]

Keep your mitts off Kieron, he's all mine...

Karen Starlene :star:
uhhumm! i wonder what Kat would say about that, i think she thinks im hers?:heehee:

[Nicki B]

uhhumm! i wonder what Kat would say about that, i think she thinks im hers?:heehee:

She's welcome to you? :winking:

Why do the girls always fight over you? Is it the eyelashes? :rolleyes:


Honestly, I'm puzzled it needs saying - surely we are all one community (I didn't say family), we suffer the same obstacles, prejudices and issues? Division only ever helps our enemies, not us? :strugglin

Maybe we need more F2F contacts - mind, I think that goes for the DQ and ALG communities as well..

[Kieron Andrew]

She's welcome to you? :winking:

Why do the girls always fight over you? Is it the eyelashes? :rolleyes:I have NO clue!!! :heehee: but im not complaining!!!



Honestly, I'm puzzled it needs saying - surely we are all one community (I didn't say family), we suffer the same obstacles, prejudices and issues? Division only ever helps our enemies, not us? :strugglin
Some of us get it! Shame its not a united front though, its weird cos in RL ive never felt discounted or pushed out for being FtM, or on any other board for that matter...

[GypsyKaren]

uhhumm! i wonder what Kat would say about that, i think she thinks im hers?:heehee:

We share, everything and everyone...

[Nicki B]

Does this mean I'm not allowed to take the pish out of Trey and Kieron any more?

I warn you I'm not nice when I sulk... :censor: :tongueout


*goes looking for a broom*

[Kieron Andrew]

Does this mean I'm not allowed to take the pish out of Trey and Kieron any more?

lmao since when did anyone stop you doing that :heehee:, id think you didnt like me anymore if you stopped!!, so dont!


I warn you I'm not nice when I sulk... :censor: :tongueoutlol! dont i know it....ummm i mean :whistling: :bs:

[GypsyKaren]

Does this mean I'm not allowed to take the pish out of Trey and Kieron any more?

I warn you I'm not nice when I sulk... :censor: :tongueout


*goes looking for a broom*

Effective immediately, there will be a $25 service charge for sulking, payable to GypsyKaren Inc.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Anthony Jake]

Thank you Karen, it's nice to know that there are some people out there who support us and are willing to speak up for us. Its is much appreciated.

Again, Thank you.

:hugs: Anthony. :happy:

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

Karen,

Thank you so much for that! As I'm sure you can tell from the number of postive comments, it is very much appreciated. :hugs: :happy: :love:

[CaptLex]

I have NO clue!!! :heehee: but im not complaining!!!
It's definitely those stunning eyelashes . . . :battingeyelashes:


its weird cos in RL ive never felt discounted or pushed out for being FtM...
And that's because of that charming accent, 007. :raspp:

[xsideburnsx]

Thanks Karen. That was very well said. :love:

[Victoria Anne]

Karen your rant was very well stated and it is a sad thing that it even need be said , I have said in the past we need to be supportive of eachother as we do share many of the same problems in life and have much to learn and to teach eachother. So let this be my statement of my full support and respect for all our brothers , here's to you all :drink:

:love: :hugs:
Viccy

[SirTrey]

Thank you, Viccy....Your support is VERY much appreciated....We DO need to support each other...We have enough problems to begin with.....It's good to have each other to lean on...and good to know we can count you among our friends....:) **Trey**:hugs::love:

[Lora Olivia]

I bow to the superb linguistic prowess of Karen. As always she says what she wants in a very distinct and to the point manner. That said I want to tell you guys how much I value you and your opinions. Kieron always has sage advice for any and all in our struggles, and a sense of humour (put the u in for you limeys:heehee:) that is great. Capt and Trey more keen insight. Gutherie and Tobias nothing more than true blue honesty and what more can we ask. So I hope none of you guys will be offended by this but as a guy I was once so blown away by getting flowers from a girl I hope you are too. So here you are my brothers:love:. And "Auntie" :love:Karen:love: you get double and as always.

:hugs:
Lora

ps. Happy Holiday season to all

[CaptLex]

Thanks for your kind words, Lora . . . and I love flowers. :D

[Kieron Andrew]

Kieron always has sage advice for any and all in our struggles, and a sense of humour (put the u in for you limeys:heehee:) that is great. aawww schucks, you're just too kind lol :heehee:, PS thanks for spelling it RIGHT! :D *waits for someone to comment on this*

[kerrianna]

aawww schucks, you're just too kind lol :heehee:, PS thanks for spelling it RIGHT! :D *waits for someone to comment on this*

Of course it is spelled that way.

How else would you spell it? :strugglin :D

[Valeria]

I am sick and tired of seeing them treated like they don't exist, I am sick and tired of seeing them treated like their feelings don't count, and there will be Hell to pay from me if I ever see one more remark about how "easy" they've got it compared to us or any other rudeness directed towards them. Easy? Let me tell you something, and I hate to burst bubbles here, but you think you've got it tough? They've got it tougher than you'll ever see, and they handle it with dignity, grace, and respect for others, to bad you don't see that.

I'm sure if you were to ask any of our brothers, they'd tell you this...it's a whole lot easier for a genetic male to physically transform into a woman than it is for a genetic woman to physically transform into a man, it's a lot harder for them to fight Mother Nature than us. It's a lot easier for us to cover things up than it is for them to add things on, that's just a fact of life. We can do a lot of clever things with clothes and make-up to disguise male features, a lot more than they can do, but they still have the guts to live their lives as their true selves, and for that they command my respect.

I've been mulling over how to respond to this for days. This post may not make me very popular, but so be it...

Personally, I both like and respect trans men. One of my closest friends is a trans man (I have lunch with him regularly). And I'm quite familiar with the relatively poor surgical options available for trans men. Among other reasons, I've actually attended a seminar presented by a leading surgeon devoted solely to surgical options for trans men (I recorded it for a friend).

But I think it's a fundamental mistake to try to rank the relative hardship or suffering between differing varieties of trans folk.

Guys have it hard. Abso-freaking-lutely!

But they don't have it "tougher than you'll ever see" compared to many women. I know women who (for various reasons) can never have genital surgery or who can't take estrogen. I know a woman that's had 4 surgeries on her vocal cords, all in an attempt to have a passable voice, and now she can barely speak above a whisper. I know women who have spent their life savings on facial surgeries, hair restoration, and hair removal (in one case, over $100k), and who still get mostly gendered as male.

I knew a woman who (six months after she'd had GRS) was afraid to leave her home to go to the grocery store. I know a woman that's attempted suicide at least 3 times in the past 15 months, and who's spent more than half of that time institutionalized, mostly because she can't handle the way the world treats her and how poor her prospects are for life ever getting better (from her point of view) - I seriously doubt that she'll live to see 30.

I know a woman that (by court order) is only allowed to see her son if she dresses in men's clothing and pretends to be a guy. There is a woman that posts to this site who has not been allowed any contact with her child in years - in fact, the child does not know her legal name, or that she has transitioned.

If your sole criteria is genital surgery, then guys unquestionably have it worse than most women, but that's hardly the only aspect of transition (and for many people, it's not the most important aspect). Men and women face related but differing challenges, and since what's incredibly important to one person may seem minor to another, it's actually pointless to try and rank whose challenges are greater.

I really hate posting this, because this forum is filled with people who are afraid to really commit to transitioning. In my experience, few people regret transitioning (many of the women I've mentioned above are still happy they've transitioned as far as they have). I try to be more positive, because one of the most often made comments by women who have transitioned is that they wish they'd had the courage to transition sooner.

I know that you just want to empasize that guys should be treated with respect, and I applaud that.

But none of us have it easy, and while I agree completely with the spirit of your post, I don't think that it's necessary (or wise) to place either group ahead of the other in terms of suffering and challenges.

[Oh, and make-up and clothing are pretty much useless for giving a trans woman a normal life as a woman.]

[Kieron Andrew]

I don't think that it's necessary (or wise) to place either group ahead of the other in terms of suffering and challenges.

Karen was NOT placing one group ahead of the other she was merely highlighting the disrespect that we DO get on this forum and in the community, that we seem to not be taken as seriously as MtF & that we should have EQUAL respect, that is all she was doing, and for that I thank her

[John]

I really don't think anyone was nesaseraly trying to say that we have it may much worce that the girls, it's just that some people don't even seam to realise we have it hard. Several times since I've bean here we've bean told (in a verry disrespectfull manner) that we have it dead easy (I'm not acusing you of doing that! No swet there). But a lot of such posts and coments get edited/deleated, so many people don't even know it happens.

[SirTrey]

But I think it's a fundamental mistake to try to rank the relative hardship or suffering between differing varieties of trans folk.
So you don't think it's right to compare......

But they don't have it "tougher than you'll ever see" compared to many women.
but then you make sure you go ahead and do it ANYWAY....then go on to list all the ways that trans women have it tougher....Will it ever end? Karen knows firsthand about transitioning, she just went through SRS, so she knows VERY well what it takes to get there....All she was saying was, from a surgical standpoint, it's harder to go ftm than mtf...and she's right....and....at least mtf can, on the other side of it, have sexually functional genitals...which we can't.....we aren't taking away what mtf's go through....we don't piss and moan and whine "poor us", but we get treated like crap or ignored in here a lot....and it's not just us that thinks it...a lot of our mtf sisters see it, as well.....WHY THIS COMPETITION THING? We are ALL IN THE SAME FRIGGING BOAT....Wrong body....regardless of which way it goes....I was just WAITING for someone to post something negative in response to what Karen so kindly said, and you didn't let Me down....What's the REAL problem here? I could say a lot about this, but I won't....Us guys pretty much figure what that problem is...we are just too nice to say it....gentlemen, if you will....We still treat ladies with respect...Sad we don't get any in return from some of you. Thanks. **Trey**

[Valeria]

Kieron, I'm sure that's probably exactly the point Karen wanted to make.

I'm responding to her actual words in the two paragraphs I quoted...

[Kieron Andrew]

Kieron, I'm sure that's probably exactly the point Karen wanted to make.

I'm responding to her actual words in the two paragraphs I quoted...

i still dont see where you think Karen says we have it harder she says we have it just as hard! she didnt said harder

[Valeria]

So you don't think it's right to compare......

but then you make sure you go ahead and do it ANYWAY
No, I don't.

I just cited some examples to show that her dismissing trans women's problems as relatively trivial was unfair. I never said that those women were worse off than men. The fact is that who is "worse" off doesn't follow gender lines. There are lots of trans men and trans women who are worse off than me in many aspects of transition, and probably some that are better off.

But you can choose to interpret my post however you see fit...

[John]

oh christ.

I'm going to sight something I said last time someting like this blue up. This is why we stay in the clubhouce. It's because every time we ask for respect it ends up in a flaming row!

[Valeria]

i still dont see where you think Karen says we have it harder she says we have it just as hard! she didnt said harder

Really? That's not what I read:


Let me tell you something, and I hate to burst bubbles here, but you think you've got it tough? They've got it tougher than you'll ever see...

I'm sure if you were to ask any of our brothers, they'd tell you this...it's a whole lot easier for a genetic male to physically transform into a woman than it is for a genetic woman to physically transform into a man, it's a lot harder for them to fight Mother Nature than us. It's a lot easier for us to cover things up than it is for them to add things on, that's just a fact of life. We can do a lot of clever things with clothes and make-up to disguise male features, a lot more than they can do, but they still have the guts to live their lives as their true selves, and for that they command my respect.

That's the sole point of my post...

[Valeria]

oh christ.

I'm going to sight something I said last time someting like this blue up. This is why we stay in the clubhouce. It's because every time we ask for respect it ends up in a flaming row!
Why should my posting that I don't think we should try to rank who has it tougher result in a "flaming row"?

Why should my post actually even be controversial (not that I'm shocked that y'all view it as such)? Did anyone actually read my words?

[John]

than you'll ever see

I apologise, non of us realised you where all omnipotent.

and the next paragraph is talking about sergary. You can't deniy ftm sergary sucks.

[SirTrey]

not that I'm shocked that y'all view it as such)?
Nor are WE, Keyler....Trust Me on that.

Did anyone actually read my words?
Yes, unfortunately, we DID. And we get it.

This is why we stay in the clubhouce
This is why we shouldn't stay in the clubhouse. It's never going to end if we do.

[John]

sorry, missed that post. You're thread in general wasn't a 'flaming row', but I can see one rapidly begining.

[Valeria]

and the next paragraph is talking about sergary. You can't deniy ftm sergary sucks.
I didn't. But I don't think that comments about how women can just use make-up and clothing to cover up are about surgery. I read the paragraph very carefully. I'd never dispute that we have better prognosis for genital reconstruction.

Whatever. I spent a lot of time deliberating whether or not to respond, and trying to craft a response that was sensitive. I didn't post on an impulse, or as a knee-jerk reaction. I'm sorry that y'all aren't willing to give my response the same level of consideration.

Again, all I said was that everyone going through this deserves respect, regardless of gender. Y'all can spin that anyway you want. I give up.

[SirTrey]

I give up.
I'm sure we are all quite glad to hear that.

[John]

Right, I'm going to bead. Be good, boys and girls.

[brylram]

Whoa... everyone chill. It seems to me that everyone here actually agrees, but that some wires are getting crossed. From what I can see, both sides are agreeing that it isn't easy for anyone, and both sides are also attempting to make sure their own difficulty is recognized... and in focussing on the aspect that is more 'personally' important both sides are unable to see the big-picture common view.

GypsyKaren tried to outline how difficult it is for ftm's, on this site and off... and Kehleyr (in my interpretation) reacted by agreeing and then attempting to outline mtf problems, not to downplay those of the ftm's but to say "hey, NO-ONE has it easy, lest we forget". I can see how it might seem as though she was arguing that mtf's have it harder, but from my original reading of her post, and subsequent re-readings... I honestly don't think that's the case.

I think it's just really easy to jump to conclusions about the statements of others (as both sides seem to have done) because this is such an emotional hot-button kind of issue, and I'm just too tired to be emotional right now.

[GypsyKaren]

They've got it tougher than you'll ever see...

I didn't say what I did to start a competition, but I guess I made the mistake of not making an allowance for hair splitting or The Battle Of The Dictionaries. What I meant by that remark is that most don't have a clue what Transmen have to go through, and I was simply trying to point that out, sorry if I failed.

If I wanted to say that Transmen have it harder, I would have said "They've got it tougher than you", but I never felt a score card was needed, and I'm sorry if some MtF's feel the need to spend a ton of money, but I stand by my remark that it's easier for us to look like women than it is for them to look like men, and please don't bombard me with "but I know so and so, and she had to do this, and she had to do that", because there's exceptions to every rule, and I don't have the time or desire to waste on more hair splitting. If people want to place every word printed since the beginning of time under an electron microscope for dissection, knock yourselves out, but don't bother me with it because I'm not interested. All I wanted to do was point out something that I felt was being overlooked, and I think it's sad that it just couldn't be taken at face value for that.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Adam]

to me what i read from Kehleyr made sense she is saying both sides have it bad just as much as each other is different ways and i agree totally.

its not a competition and we all have it hard i think this thread was started more to the point to show that we are here and also have it hard not because we have it harder just that we do also find life hard and it all started because some members where treating us like we have it easy and we don't.

i no ftm an mtf that find it hard and i have had a very close Friend ftm who killed himself but life sucks and thats a fact.

so why all this upset why when someone is trying to make there view heard ie Kehleyr why jump at them really though i have read it and shes just pointing our how she sees things i read it and i didn't see one word bad to us ftm's

for gods sake take a chill pill everyone :hugs:

[Nicki B]

.....WHY THIS COMPETITION THING?

God help us when you get T... :hiding:


Right, I'm going to bead.

You mean you're defrosting?? Or maybe praying.. :strugglin

Chill, guys.

It's a struggle for everyone. Some boys have it bad - and so do some girls. In the end we all have our own individual wars to fight, with different battles. The important thing is fighting through to the end - NOT fighting each other, or belittling anybody else? :hugs:

[Rita B]

Well I am happy to say that one of my best friends in the TG community is FTM. Mike is the editor of "The Rosebud" newsletter/magazine which is sponsored by the Tiffany Club of New England. Mike and his S/O Tasha are two of the nicest people I know. Mike is also the moderator for a support group called TAVA which is for transgendered veterans and is hosted by the VA. You can look him up on the Internet at "T.C.N.E."

[Tamara Croft]

Again, all I said was that everyone going through this deserves respect, regardless of gender. Y'all can spin that anyway you want. I give up.Yes, exactly, EVERYONE deserves respect, so why don't you try shutting up for a flaming minute, this thread ISN'T about you and who you know and who did what and :blah: :blah: flaming :blah: ... Seems to me you have a big problem with anything that doesn't confirm to your standards...

And you give up? please do, because seriously, you might be able to write like you've swallowed a huge bloody dictionary, but you're words are pissing people off... :mad:

(the words stfu come to mind right now)

</endeth rant>

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

One of my best friends is a tgirl... we help each other survive living in gendered dorms at a public University in the middle of Iowa. We stayed up talking the other night from 1 a.m. to 9 a.m. and had breakfast together. She told me that learning to let herself be the woman she was meant to be couldn't have happened anywhere close to as easily if she hadn't had me in her life, and honestly, without her, I'd feel so alone here that school would be hell.

However, even WE got into a row the other day about who had it harder... but at the end, we were still friends, and we agreed that each path has its difficulties. Not everyone has the same difficulties, and each path has different struggles and different experiences. One is not better, harder or easier than the other, and we both recognize this.

And, most importantly, we realized this:

58575

This world wasn't set up for people like us, and every day is a fight just be recognized with dignity and respect. Let's all try to help each other out, ok? :gh:

[SirTrey]

Exactly, Tobias....I agree wholeheartedly...:)

[Tristan]

We don't want your pity. We don't really care if you think we have it harder or mtf's have it harder. What we want is RESPECT. This post came from a total disrespect from many towards ftm's. I don't think just because we have it easier or harder should have anything to do with common decency and a little bit of RESPECT.

[Kieron Andrew]

But you can choose to interpret my post however you see fit...

Yup I will interpret it anyway I please, this thread that was so kindly posted by Karen with a heartfelt respectful plea for the FtMs of this board who get a great deal of lack of respect, understanding and EQUALITY, it was NOT about MtFs, but again as always it gets turn around and just HAS to be about MtFs and what they go through!!!, we KNOW what you all go through, and guess what...we respect it and acknowledge it and have done for quite sometime,....because we are respectful men, i for one have many friends who are transwomen!, there are many people out there that dont think we go through the same hardship as Transman and Karen was just trying to highlight that....

You know, Ive had a gut full of trying to get some kind of EQUAL support on this so called community forum, when MtFs like you always turn it around your hardship and your life!...this thread was NOT about you, this whole forum isnt soley about you either!....not everything Trans is about MtFs believe it or not!!...the only reason things end up in a flaming row is because we defend our right to be part of this forum and receive as much rightful EQUAL support and respect as anyone else.....you girls expect support and respect, how about not making everything about you and giving a little in return.....

Thanks Kehleyr you treated us exactly the way i was expecting someone to do so on this thread, and ruin it for everyone, im just surprised it took so long! the only reason this thread has turned into a flame is you!

[brylram]

You know Kieron, for someone who's seeking equality, you sure seem to be putting some heavy restrictions on it in this thread... Kehleyr didn't say anything about ftm's not having a hard time, and she didn't say anything about mtf's having it harder. She was just expressing concern that maybe in trying to get recognition for the ftm's it might have been framed as though the mtf's had no problems (basically just a switch of the normal MTF/ftm to FTM/mtf if you get what I'm saying) and her original post seems to have simply been an attempt to keep on track of the 'equality' you're seeking before everything just got swung in the other direction (ironic that in your search for 'equality' you feel the need to shut out all mtf recognition).


Thanks Kehleyr you treated us exactly the way i was expecting someone to do so on this thread, and ruin it for everyone, im just surprised it took so long! the only reason this thread has turned into a flame is you!

The only reason this thread has turned into a flame is because of emotional knee-jerk responses based on preconceptions AND misconceptions... I understand the frustration guys, but it really seems like you're venting a community-based frustration on an individual who made none of the claims you're trying to overcome. I think you saw what you wanted to (or were afraid to, more like) simply because you WERE expecting it.

[Kieron Andrew]

(ironic that in your search for 'equality' you feel the need to shut out all mtf recognition).
Not at all, most of my friends are MtFs as stated, in fact i am the only FtM within the group, so i am quite able and happy to give MtFs the recognition they deserve, in fact i know all too well as said what they have to go through! im quite happy for us to work TOGETHER in harmony here on this forum, if we are given a little respect and equality in return, that is isnt too much to ask for is it?, THIS particular thread wasnt about MtFs at ALL, Kehleyr made it so.....


The only reason this thread has turned into a flame is because of emotional knee-jerk responses based on preconceptions AND misconceptions... I understand the frustration guys, but it really seems like you're venting a community-based frustration on an individual who made none of the claims you're trying to overcome. I think you saw what you wanted to (or were afraid to, more like) simply because you WERE expecting it.If Kehleyr hadnt come in all gun's blazing with what MtFs have and havent got on a thread that was meant to help recognise that the boys get discounted in their transitions and , then i wouldnt have posted what i did, ...(which is late to the game cos my net went down)

[brylram]

THIS particular thread wasnt about MtFs at ALL, Kehleyr made it so.....

This particular thread had some wording that could justifiably cause concern that in order to recognize the ftm members, the mtf members would be cut down to some degree. Kehleyr's post was basically saying "I want equality too, just don't forget about mtf's in the process". This thread is about ftm's, but MORE IMPORTANTLY about equality...


If Kehleyr hadnt come in all gun's blazing with what MtFs have and havent got on a thread that was meant to help recognise that the boys get discounted in their transitions and , then i wouldnt have posted what i did

Gun's blazing? Sorry, I didn't see that at all. Though I can understand how you would, given that you were expecting such a post to come along... rather than reading what she was actually saying, I think you read the words and inserted your own meaning based on the belief that most mtf's on this site are restrictive and out to get the poor ftm's. I saw absolutely no disrespect in Kehleyr's post, in fact what I saw was a great deal of support and an attempt to make sure everyone was recognized, in this thread about equality, based on the issue of equality.

How about we actually take another look at what she said, hmm?

Personally, I both like and respect trans men.
Ooooh, offensive!

But I think it's a fundamental mistake to try to rank the relative hardship or suffering between differing varieties of trans folk.

Guys have it hard. Abso-freaking-lutely!

But they don't have it "tougher than you'll ever see" compared to many women.
Grr, restrictive and belittling!

Next there were some examples of the difficulties mtf's face, in an attempt to keep perspective that we ALL have problems. Followed by:


If your sole criteria is genital surgery, then guys unquestionably have it worse than most women, but that's hardly the only aspect of transition (and for many people, it's not the most important aspect). Men and women face related but differing challenges, and since what's incredibly important to one person may seem minor to another, it's actually pointless to try and rank whose challenges are greater.

Blasphemy, unreasonable, stop talking all about mtf's!!!

I know that you just want to empasize that guys should be treated with respect, and I applaud that.

But none of us have it easy, and while I agree completely with the spirit of your post, I don't think that it's necessary (or wise) to place either group ahead of the other in terms of suffering and challenges.
Seriously, what a bitch. :rolleyes:

Gimme a break. This person is a potential well-spoken and understanding ally.... and you would rather toss that away based on misconceptions and a hot-headed persistence in being offended? Honestly...

*!*Just to clarify, each of my posts, and in particular a great deal of this one are aimed at ALL of the individuals who have responded negatively to Kehleyr... not just Kieron, he just had a really great post that summarized a lot of what I'm taking issue with in this thread, so it was a good kick-start for my responses without jumbling my thoughts too much.*!*

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Brylram,

Its also a good example of why our world is so truly messed up in so many areas.

Too much anger floating around unchecked.

Zara

[brylram]

[QUOTE]Brylram,

Its also a good example of why our world is so truly messed up in so many areas.

Too much anger floating around unchecked.

ZaraQUOTE]

Not just anger, but the need for self-preservation and protection as well... paired with group mentalities and bonding lots of problems can ensue all over the place.

I gotta say though, even though some fuss kicks up around her, I never have any problem with it... because even though it can get silly at times (not necessarily reffering to this actual thread) people around here are pretty reasonable and toned-down, they just want to make sure that things are ok for them, and for the people they care about.

Never allow yourself to venture into nexopia forum territory though, people on there can be NUTS. :heehee:

[Tamara Croft]

Ok, enough is enough... we can either 1) get along and stop bitching in this thread or 2) I'll bloody close it!!!

nuff said :mad:

[GypsyKaren]

Brylram, all I wanted to do was get people to see that FtM's actually exist, and I don't see how any others could feel cut down by doing that. 98% of this site is about the MtF side of things, they have more than enough space to show their colors and tell of their problems, it's never a bloody secret, believe me on that. Everybody here knows what MtF's have to go through, we have 20,000 of them who are more than willing to share about that, and I don't see why I couldn't have been allowed a tiny slice of this place to show the other side without someone pointing out that they didn't get a piece of candy too.

Karen Starlene :star:

[brylram]

Karen, I was referring only to the aspects of your post which COULD have been taken as implying that ftm's had it MUCH tougher than mtf's, or that mtf's didn't have as much to whine about as they claimed (I realize that neither of which was the case, don't worry)... the problem is just that based on the wording it COULD be interpreted that way, and that is the only issue I had with it, and also the only part which Kehleyr expressed any concern about...


I don't see why I couldn't have been allowed a tiny slice of this place to show the other side without someone pointing out that they didn't get a piece of candy too

Because we're talking about equality here... yes, the emphasis is on the affects of our current lack of equality on the ftm members, but the overall issue is a community one, not an ftm one. You have every right to say everything you did, and 98&#37; was agreed with by everyone involved... but because it IS an issue of equality, it's perfectly reasonable that Kehleyr stepped in and said "hey, I agree... but let's keep it neutral, because that's what equality is really about."

I would personally have stepped in and said basically what Kehleyr did (although maybe with a better reception, or a way of saying it that clicked with more people) but by the time I came back from sleeping her post had already been made.

I think that as we seek to increase the acceptance and quality of treatment of ftm's, we also need to be very careful to keep the mtf's exactly where they are as far as acceptance... sure they seem to have way too much at times now, but the issue isn't really that they have too much acceptance, but that ftm's have too little. That means that wording is going to be very important, especially because we don't want it to ever seem as though what's being attempted is a power shift rather than a balance, and with all the emotions involved that kind of interpretation could very easily be made by many members. What I keep relating it to in my mind is feminism... a great deal of men can have a problem with feminism, because unfortunately it can come across as an attempt to shift the power to women, rather than simply to create equality.

[kerrianna]

What I keep relating it to in my mind is feminism... a great deal of men can have a problem with feminism, because unfortunately it can come across as an attempt to shift the power to women, rather than simply to create equality.


Exactly...which is why I'm surprised a feminist like Kehleyr didn't seem to factor what I called the 'politics of power' into the equation.

I believe that some of the disrespect shown to FTMs comes straight out of the power imbalance of the patriarchy.

I KNOW you guys are men...but some people, natal men in particular, refuse to see or understand that...and they have been steeped in patriarchal tea for so long that their knee-jerk reaction is to see you as females first and they apply the same low or high level misogny to their thinking. Most of the poor dears don't even know they are doing it...it's so ingrained in our society.

Not everyone will agree with my politics or viewpoint, but I am a feminist, and I therefore do believe that women still need to fight harder for equal ground. I won't get into what some people think is an overreach from feminism because this isn't the place for it. My view is that enough still hasn't been done to say that men and women have equal footing. I base that on my personal experiences in life too.

I've seen and heard remarks about transmen that I can describe in no other way than misogyny. It doesn't matter that you and I know you are men. That's not what some lunkheads can accomodate in their brains. They just see your assigned birth and act out on that.

Hopefully we can all work together on changing that. :hugs:

[Jan W]

Me thinks you protest too much!

Seriously though, this is a difficult road to hoe for all and ALL disrespectfull posts and thoughts should be be seen for the tiny mindedness that produced them.

Live and let live.

Love,


Jan

[GypsyKaren]

I think enough points have been made here, so let's end this and move on, shall we?

Karen Starlene :star: