Is there an anti-CD bias among transsexuals? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Sharon

12-17-2007, 02:16 PM

We have had many mentions in this forum that there is a hierarchal prejudice among transsexuals towards crossdressers. While this may be true with individual TSs, could it also be true as a general statement?

When speaking of individuals, I have seen that there is even a bias of one crossdresser towards another who has different desires, dressing preferences, and whether they are in the closet or not. Among transsexuals, there is a definite look askance of some post-ops and pre-ops towards non-ops, but my focus in this thread is TSs versus CDs.

I just don't understand it to be perfectly honest. Where does anyone get off thinking they are better than another person else simply for the way they are born -- something very few make a conscious decision of being? It's not as if there are those who make a simple decision to satisfy their needs by choosing not to be be transsexual. It is simply a matter of being different.

It's bad enough we sometimes have to deal with crap from so-called "normal" members of society, but to see it here just surprises the hell out of me and just ticks me off to no end. Yeah, there may be individuals who make choices that we may not agree with or understand, but to denigate everyone for the actions of a few is just ignorant and doesn't belong -- not just here on the forum, but anywhere.

Comments?

Kieron Andrew

12-17-2007, 02:25 PM

Comments?

Ive seen it all to often...its what i call the TV/TS divide!!...on forum's and at get togethers, there seems to be many TS' that seem to think their problems whilst different seem to be greater and more significant than that of CD's, when we all face the same stigma's and prejudices. we dont need it amongst ourselves but we still experience it, its the same with mtf/ftm TS divide....why it happens? i dunno because im not wired that way

Shelly Preston

12-17-2007, 02:57 PM

Some people will always have differing idea of what right and what wrong

Which is where the predjuice comes in

I guess some transexuals think that for most CD's its a matter of choice so dont see the CD as being real in their eyes

Judging by the number of CD's who have tried to give up (myself included) I dont think its as simple as that

I dont understand why people dont realise although not quite the same we are similar and should try to help each other

ZenFrost

12-17-2007, 03:43 PM

Valeria

12-17-2007, 04:07 PM

Not all trans people have problems with crossdressers, but some do, and there are actually several reasons why.

1) The "creepy" factor. A lot of trans women, particularly younger ones, have problems with anyone that is blatantly gender variant. Maybe it's because of internalized transphobia, maybe it's out of a deep-seated fear of being perceived as a man in a dress, but many trans women are just plain uncomfortable around people that look this way. This is also part of the root cause for why a lot of younger trans women have problems with older trans women, fwiw.

It doesn't help when crossdressers treat dressing like a game. I've been to Southern Comfort, and when I walked into the ladies room I had a crossdresser grin at me and say "Remember to sit with your feet facing the right way!!". There were several guys in there giggling and cutting up, and despite their "warning", making no real attempt to be seen as women. I was like, WTF? I'm not in there on a lark. Going to the ladies room isn't "play time" for me, and having masculine-identified people in there acting this way made me very uncomfortable.

Truth be told, in person I'm uncomfortable around anyone MtF that isn't at least mostly passable (and it doesn't really matter if they are TS or CD or what). I'm close friends with some such people online, and I'm not proud that I react that way. But the reality is that I do. It triggers a form of cognitive dissonance that I don't seem to be able to prevent.

2) Some people don't like that transgendered people are often perceived as all being the same. They are tired of having so many people assume that transition is about fetishistic sexual urges (actually, I think a lot of crossdressers are tired of the same thing), and they blame crossdressers for contributing to this image. They feel that political movements to try and deal with legal issues faced by trans people are held back because of fears of stuff like "men in women's restrooms". They feel that every time some crossdresser does something embarrasing or inappropriate in public, the general image of all trans people goes down.

3) The "getting clocked" factor. A lot of trans women don't like to socialize pubicly with people who are unpassable, because they fear that they can't handle the extra scrutiny and they'll get gendered incorrectly too.

The first factor I mentioned can contribute to feelings of digust, and the second factor can contribute to feelings of resentment.

BTW, I don't think that trans people "looking down" on crossdressers as having a choice is particularly common, nor do I think that TS people think that they are "better" than crossdressers. I don't think that's putting quite the right spin on the sentiments I've seen expressed.

Most of this isn't productive, and it is certainly no excuse for being rude on line. Not everyone TS feels this way (presumably, few people who are active at this particular forum feel this way). I certainly don't - there are quite a few people here who aren't "TS-identified" who I like and respect quite a bit.

But these feeling are out there.

[FWIW, you also see straight trans women who aren't comfortable with being politically allied with LGB people, and gender-normative gay people who aren't comfortable with being politically allied with trans people. As part of the recent ENDA fiasco, I had to deal with gay transphobes posting in political forums that they were okay with trans men, but they couldn't see how they had anything in common with men who cut off their dicks. This is all just human nature... :sad: ]

Lisa Golightly

12-17-2007, 04:19 PM

Oh it's out there, and people have tried to make me toe the 'party line' but I've always ignored such rubbish... It's all too tribal for my taste.

GypsyKaren

12-17-2007, 05:28 PM

Siobhan Marie

12-17-2007, 05:42 PM

I don't have a problem with those who crossdress. A friend of mine does . I know that the "bias" exists too and to be honest I wish that it doesn't, but it does.

As for this place, I always understood it that we were here to help and support one and another, not to be horrible and nasty. We get that from so-called "normal" people and we don't need it here.

:hugs: Siobhán x

Nicki B

12-17-2007, 06:11 PM

There is from some, but not others. You just can't generalise, like this?

More important, surely, is the question of how we can all accept each other and regard ourselves as friends AND ALLIES? :strugglin

Daintre

12-17-2007, 06:19 PM

I have nothing but respect for the TS members of this Forum. I do identify with many of the CD members here, but not all. Zen has said what I am feeling and that as a group we are marginalized enough already without us adding more derision.

Sharon

12-17-2007, 06:25 PM

Thank you for the detailed, and honest, reply, Kehleyr -- you provided several reasons for attitudes being what they are. What bothers me is that the TSs that you speak of have these disparaging attitudes towards crossdressers because of the latter's passability and on whether the general public associates them as being crossdressers themselves. Seriously, what does it really matter? If someone asks me what I am, I just tell them what's what. And if they don't.., well, it still doesn't matter.

As far as that attitude goes, I myself would probably fall victim to this prejudice because I'm not entirely passable myself. Maybe I should return the attitude towards those who do, but that's so much more difficult than just accepting everybody for who and what they are.

And remember folks, I am talking about individual prejudice here. I just don't know how widespread these feelings are, which is the point of this thread.

GypsyKaren

12-17-2007, 06:49 PM

I hold bias against no one, because I rejoice and embrace the differences in everyone, that's what makes the world go round as far as I'm concerned. Cd'er, Ts'er, MtF, FtM, black, white, Asian, Dalmatian, I don't care, because I accept everyone as a person, except for Dalmatians, I accept them as a dog. The only group I have problems with are those who are prejudice about anyone else, to me they're assholes who I have no desire to be around. It's a hell of a lot easier to be a friend than an enemy, so I'd much rather go with friend.

Karen Starlene :star:

MarinaTwelve200

12-17-2007, 07:20 PM

Well, Transsexualisim is a whole 'nother different condition than other conditions that induce folks to crossdress. Its not just a "different degree" of the same thing.

I would think that everyone has some degree or "uneasiness" around people different than themselves. Its HOW one handles the uneasiness which is important. Using reason, many of us can overcome our underlying initial feelings of "discomfort" and be excepting and tolerant. While others give into the feelings and often translate them into other emotions such as pitty, arrogance or even hate.

Wearing the clothing of the opposite sex is really the only thing most of us CDers have in common with TS folks--its really not that much, as we do it for other reasons. So there really isn't any real connection there, for most of us, that needs to be honored. We should accept TS people, and vice versa, simply because human to human.its the "right" thing to do. We acknoledge our differences, but do not let them get in our way.

Rita B

12-17-2007, 08:11 PM

I can remember that 20 years ago some of the transexuals I knew would look down their noses at anyone who was not "in transition" or who were not on hormones, or had not had any kind of surgical enhancement, even though I also knew a lot of CD's who could run circles around them when it came to "passing" etc. . .

Some things never change.. . .I wonder why that is. . .

gillian1968

12-17-2007, 08:47 PM

To be honest, this sentiment has generally kept me from posting my own viewpoints and questions even on this forum. As a result, I resign myself to lurking, saying little but reading lots.

I wonder, how many people here feel the same as I?

I am one of those "unthinkables" who has decided upon a partial transition, it has taken me a few years to reach this point, working out how I feel and how I wish to live in the world around me. Am I less of a person? I don't think so.

However, let me say this - the postings on this form, negative and positive, have helped me gain understanding in my journey and allowed me to gauge how I personally feel about so many issues. Were this forum any different, I don't believe I could have achieved the sense of balance I feel today.

Peace :)

-tasha

DanielMacBride

12-17-2007, 09:11 PM

I must be lucky then...I am trans but some of my best friends are crossdressers (and some of them don't pass all that well) and we have never had an issue with a hierarchy - we all just accept each other for who we are. I have a large group of friends consisting of crossdressers and transfolk of all different shades and in widely varying stages of transition, and while I am aware of a small element here that is somewhat elitist (mainly as previously mentioned the post-op trans who frown on pre- or non-op transfolk), I have never personally witnessed any sort of divide between crossdressers and transfolk here in Perth. There is a bit of friendly b*tching, yeah, but it is all said in fun and everyone knows it so there is no issue. I wish everyone would get over the whole Animal Farm thing (all animals are equal but some are more equal than others), it does irritate me that there is marginalisation and division amongst what is already a minority!

As for enemies.....an "enemy" is merely a friend I haven't met yet ;)

Daniel

Tamara Croft

12-17-2007, 09:27 PM

Wow, you really are quite the snob aren't you? It's quotes like this that make my stomach literally turn over :mad: Maybe you should try accepting other people for how they want to live, how they want to act when they are going out for a night on the town... If these people don't quite fit into your lifestyle, how the hell is society ever going to change? Quit looking down your nose at people, it's getting annoying now :mad: Crossdressers have every right to do what the hell they like when they are out, they aren't TS's, they don't have an agenda, they are out having fun, maybe if you got down off that extremely high horse of yours, stop whinging about everything crap in your life and blaming it on anyone else but your damn self, you might just be able to go out and have some fun. Wake up and smell the coffee already, your 'oh I'm so hard done by' is getting old... seriously OLD!!!
It doesn't help when crossdressers treat dressing like a game. I've been to Southern Comfort, and when I walked into the ladies room I had a crossdresser grin at me and say "Remember to sit with your feet facing the right way!!". There were several guys in there giggling and cutting up, and despite their "warning", making no real attempt to be seen as women. I was like, WTF? I'm not in there on a lark. Going to the ladies room isn't "play time" for me, and having masculine-identified people in there acting this way made me very uncomfortable.

Truth be told, in person I'm uncomfortable around anyone MtF that isn't at least mostly passable (and it doesn't really matter if they are TS or CD or what). I'm close friends with some such people online, and I'm not proud that I react that way. But the reality is that I do. It triggers a form of cognitive dissonance that I don't seem to be able to prevent.

Kate Simmons

12-18-2007, 01:47 AM

I could say plenty about this, but I've done all of the arguing I'm going to do today, but I will toss this out...there's some form of bias in absolutely every single group in the world, goldfish included, it's just our nature. For the most part I believe it's restricted to a small slice of each population, so I don't think it's that big of a deal to worry about.

Karen Starlene :star:Now that is funny Karen. I was thinking the very same thing. I didn't post when Sharon first posted this as I wanted to see other responses first. As far as the goldfish, you ever notice when you talk to "goldfish", the only response you ever is get is air bubbles and never anything intelligible? I guess it's because they feel they are goldfish and don't give a damn about anyone else.

Valeria

12-18-2007, 02:10 AM

What bothers me is that the TSs that you speak of have these disparaging attitudes towards crossdressers because of the latter's passability and on whether the general public associates them as being crossdressers themselves. Seriously, what does it really matter? If someone asks me what I am, I just tell them what's what. And if they don't.., well, it still doesn't matter.
Well, you're right - it often doesn't matter. Ironically, a lot of younger trans people have reasonable prospects for having a normal life where trans issues fade into the background, so it really doesn't matter to them. I'm not as young as some of these women, but the fact is that being trans doesn't really affect my daily life at all, because none of my coworkers or classmates know my history. Being lesbian has *far* more affect on my life than being trans.

But no one ever said emotions are rational. People are often bothered by things that have no real impact on their lives.

Also, public perception often has a huge impact on how well other people handle it when trans women come out to their families, and a lot of these women have had parents or spouses or children say very hateful stuff to them and/or cut them out of the family altogether. When someone has been told that they aren't allowed to attend family gatherings because the children shouldn't be exposed to such perverted behavior, it may make them a tad less rational.

And the cognitive dissonance I described occurs at a very low level. While I think it may be more pronounced in some trans women, it's pretty common to lots of people - people learn to gender people at a very young age with astounding accuracy, and when a person presents wildly divergent gender signals, it is often subconciously disconcerting.

BTW, it's also not just "not passing" that triggers some of these emotions. I've often seen complaints about adults acting like adolescent (or pre-adolescent) girls.

I also don't want to make it sound like it is only young, passable trans women that have some issues with crossdressers. Actually, by far the most bigoted rants I've seen on the issue have come from older trans people (some of them with serious issues passing themselves). I think their motivations are considerably different, and are largely rooted in insecurity - in fact, I think a lot of them used to consider themselves crossdressers (though I think some of them would rather die than admit it now).

As far as that attitude goes, I myself would probably fall victim to this prejudice because I'm not entirely passable myself. Maybe I should return the attitude towards those who do, but that's so much more difficult than just accepting everybody for who and what they are.
As it happens, I've heard a lot of complaints from younger transitioners about real life support trans support groups being dominated by older crossdressers (and the occasional older trans woman), and that at best such people don't allow them to speak much or discuss their issues, and at worst they treat the younger transitioners with animosity (belittling their issues and concerns). Now I've never attended such a support group, so this is pure hearsay - but it's a complaint I've seen on many occasions from many women in multiple arenas. I know lots of trans women that have dropped out of support groups in frustration, and some of them talk about how they wish there was a support group where they felt welcome, so something is going on...

And remember folks, I am talking about individual prejudice here. I just don't know how widespread these feelings are, which is the point of this thread.
Who can really say? Such feelings aren't incredibly rare, but they also aren't even close to universal. On other (ts exclusive) forums, I've seen threads where people have aired some of these complaints and feelings, but I've also seen quite a few women disagree with some of them and plead for more unity and understanding (including myself, fwiw). Such threads are often heated, even without any CD presence.

Also, a lot of trans people are used to genderqueer and emo and other forms of gender variance. I know young trans women who will tell you that guys in skirts are hot. So these feelings are far from universal (but they do exist).

Also, I'm not defending any of the behaviors or reactions I've described. I'm just reporting on my perception of such things based on my personal observations.

I believe that there are a lot of people with gender issues that don't rightly know whether they are crossdressers or ts people or genderqueer or somewhere inbetween. Even if it turns out that crossdressing and being genderqueer and being transsexual all are distinctly different conditions with different underlying causes, there is a lot of fluidity between these categories as people try to sort themselves out (and some people belong to more than one such category). So I'm all for unity and understanding. But some people are pretty emotional about these things.

I think that the LGBTQIQ tent should be open to anyone that cares to participate, but there is a lot of disagreement about that. I can think of numerous factions within the queer rainbow coalition that have the same types of issues with other factions.

FWIW, ultimately I think a lot of the difficuties (on all sides of the issue) come from some people just not being very empathetic towards people who are different. That, and a big dose of insecurity. But a lack of empathy is pretty much always at the root of any form of prejudice...

brylram

12-18-2007, 02:32 AM

Wow, you really are quite the snob aren't you? It's quotes like this that make my stomach literally turn over Maybe you should try accepting other people for how they want to live, how they want to act when they are going out for a night on the town... If these people don't quite fit into your lifestyle, how the hell is society ever going to change? Quit looking down your nose at people, it's getting annoying now Crossdressers have every right to do what the hell they like when they are out, they aren't TS's, they don't have an agenda, they are out having fun, maybe if you got down off that extremely high horse of yours, stop whinging about everything crap in your life and blaming it on anyone else but your damn self, you might just be able to go out and have some fun. Wake up and smell the coffee already, your 'oh I'm so hard done by' is getting old... seriously OLD!!!

Again, I'm seeing a lot of anger directed at Kehleyr, but can't find the reason for it within her actual post... She never said that those CD's were wrong, just that they made her uncomfortable, and could make her feel somewhat belittled... if she had proceeded to say 'they have no right to act that way' 'they should be more like me' or anything along those lines I would understand being offended.

Basically it seems like she was just stating some feelings she has in those situations, but I got the impression she doesn't agree with those feelings on a head-level, and would not try to restrict those people simply for making her uncomfortable. I think a lot of us here can say we've had feelings like that, the problem only arises when we attempt to negatively affect others based on those feelings. Personally, I feel INCREDIBLY uncomfortable around drag kings at times, either because they are presenting a hyper-masculine and derogatory view of men that I find offensive... or because they are acting absurdly feminine for someone attempting to pass as male, and even that my own passing might be put at risk by their presence. In my head however I know what they're doing is ok regardless of my discomfort, and I would never do anything to negatively impact them.

It's perfectly fine to acknowledge the feelings that Kehleyr did, and I admire her for being comfortable and/or confident enough to do so.

Sharon

12-18-2007, 03:43 AM

Things are getting pretty steamed in not only this thread, but in one or two others in this section. I want it to stop. Now.

I am not here in anticipation of witnessing a divide occur between members, and I am not willing to sit back and see one person flame another just because they are being honest about their opinions. Do I wish everyone was as accepting and understanding as the majority of the members are? You bet I am, but that just isn't reasonable to expect.

We are here not to judge and attack, but to exchange ideas and viewpoints. If someone has a point of view that differs from your own, then either be willing to discuss it as adults or just keep your trap shut and stay out of these discussions.

I am not here to defend those whose opinions I find questionable, or even repellant, but I am here to allow them to speak their mind and explain their feelings in a calm manner. I expect the same from those whose feelings seem more concurrant with my own.

Thank you.

kerrianna

12-18-2007, 04:25 AM

Jeez Sharon, I'm glad it was YOU who started this thread, because I had a thought the other day while reading another 'steamy' thread similar and I was going to ask this question but thought, no I should let things cool down for awhile. :p

So now I get to ask this. It's hypothetical, like most of my existence....

Do you think that some TS people think more like cisgendered people because in a sense that's what they are? In other words, most are unequivocal in their gender identity...they're not so much 'a little bit of this, a little bit of that', but rather they tend towards a binary expression. I know it's a paradox I deal with myself...I am TRANSgendered, but I feel very much like I belong on one end of the scale. Being trans gives me the insight of what's it like to be in gender confusion, and that does allow me insight into the way gender-fluid people think and behave. And I like a lot of that concept - intellectually I abhor the binary gender model. Yet I also embrace it...and if I transitioned I would want to do so quite completely. My goal would to be in fact very much like a cisgendered person.

Well, we know not all natal females 'approve of' or understand crossdressers. They have their reasons that seem valid to them, although I think anyone who is so judgmental about other people is lacking in empathy and compassion. But that's the way some people are.

And maybe, and this is just my hypothesis, maybe some (and I don't think it's many) TS people think so much like cisgendered people once they have embarked on their path that they don't think they actually have much in common with crossdressers.

Did that make any sense?

BTW, I still keep coming back to people just being judgmental and fearful, operating out of negativity, which happens in all walks of life.

And the cognitive dissonance I described occurs at a very low level. While I think it may be more pronounced in some trans women, it's pretty common to lots of people - people learn to gender people at a very young age with astounding accuracy, and when a person presents wildly divergent gender signals, it is often subconciously disconcerting.

This is true. My massage therapist knows I am TG, but she's never had a problem with it until the last time I saw her when I was dressed and feeling more femme, but still in male mode - gender bending I guess. She told me it made her feel 'uncomfortable' and she couldn't say exactly why. She knew it was HER reaction, but it surprised her I guess because she sees herself as a liberal open-minded person. But it was that cognitive dissonance Kehleyr was describing...the first thing we almost unconciously do when we meet people is assign a gender to them...'am I talking to a he or a she?' When we have to take a second to figure it out it throws us out of our comfort zone.

I think cisgendered people, because of their lack of experience in this regard, get thrown a lot more easily.

Jan W

12-18-2007, 05:55 AM

I too have experienced the "you are not a real TG, just a weekend TG because you have not chopped off the offending bits and pieces as I have gallantly done!"

Well to that I say "good for you, you're the best"

It is interesting to me that even those who feel most disadvantaged can join in and and find someone else to belittle.

MsJanessa

12-18-2007, 06:56 AM

Most of the TS s I know really consider themselves female and want to fit in as a GG as much as they can. Unfortunatly this sometimes involves distancing themselves from the rest of the TG community, includling CDs, as much as possible. After all if you hang around with a group of visibible "gender varients", after awhile people are going to think you are not what you appear to be. That said, most of the TSs I know don't feel that way and are perfectly happy to accept the rest of us for who we are.

Wendy me

12-18-2007, 07:40 AM

you know this is the reason i hate labels ..... look it took me for ever to accept me for who i am and say yes i am OK with me who ever that might be ..... i sure i could call myself what ever i would like TG/TS /TV/ or CD... i am not a fetish dresser ... as a matter of fact the clothing is just that clothing .....

having SRS is something i have thought abought abought (who has not?)at this time it is not right for me and i know that ...i have been a outcast all my life never fit any were always on the wrong side of things so i learned to stand up for me and the people that needed some one to do that for them .......

i don't like the thought of us/ them stupidly as what dose that help any one ????? look at the people that are so closed minded to think they are normal liven their lives as their born gender that believe any one that dose not do the same is sick or wrong .... a divide within our spectrum from CD to post opp... can only hurt us ... and OK i hear a lot abought persons embarrassing other persons that might be true amenest us but look at every day life in our real life their are those that embarrass us that are not with gender issues ..... and how do we deal with them??? we just don't get involved with them .... the same should hold true with us that have gender issues no matter what we call our selfs .......

so what if i start to say i am TG/TS /TV i am a better class of gender issues that i fit the mold ????sorry this once very confused very mixed up person ( still am to somewhat) is just simply a person that accepts that i don't fit in the mold of being normal i am comfy being called a CD but i could be more ..... but happy (most of the time fits) me...

i am happy and good with every one no matter were you want to be or you are .... i accept all for that ...... in some way if that puts me on the the other side that don't fit in cool been there ......you don't need to hold hands with every one and sing silly songs that your paths cross be who you are and not some one you think you should be be happy and love the people that are different from who you are ..... for liefs short and we all need to be who we are .......

this silly us / them sucks and i won't play that game ..........

Sandra

12-18-2007, 10:16 AM

Hope you all don't mind me butting in here :) On the whole I would say that mosts TSs are not bias or anti cd, as saying that though I came accross a TS (not from this site) who was really anti cd, she hated those who had a supportive family, were out and about in public, she didn't like it that they had all that and she didn't and allshe did was moan about it.

She once told Nigella that she was stupid for coming out at work and even more annoyed when she was told that Nigella had support at work.
I can only put this down to jealousy, the fact that someone who is CD had gone and done what she wanted to do.

As I said at the top of this post most TSs are ok but there is some who think that they are just a little bit above everyone else and that includes other TSs

Ms. Donna

12-18-2007, 04:29 PM

I posted this in reply to a thread on the mHB boards:

But on the "social dysphoria" aspects, I'm not so sure there's a huge difference in the needs. It just that part-time gender-crossing are enough to satisfy my needs, while for others it isn't.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the difference between you and me is quantitative, i.e., your social dysphoria is relieved by part-time gender crossing, whereas mine is only relieved by going full-time. In other words, you're okay with filling the social role of a man part of the time, and I'm not.

I consider myself as crossing gender boundaries on a full-time basis - not that same 'full time' as you Alice - but full-time nonetheless. Does it relieve my 'social dysphoria? It helps to mitigate it - but I don't know that there is anything which can 'relieve' it.

As for being 'ok' with "filling the social role of a man part of the time" - I'm not ok with it. I don't know that I actually do fill that role. Perhaps I'm perceived as filling that role - but do I consider myself as filling that role? No, not really.

In other words, it's not a quantitative thing, at least in the reality of it. It's qualitative. I'm not just "more dysphoric" than you; I experience something that seems to me, given the way you describe it, that is completely different from what you experience.

This is very likely the case. I talk to people (both cis and trans) who have very strong senses of being men and women: I don't get it. I don't know what that feels like. I don't know what that means. I accept that these people feel what they claim, but it really is a foreign construct to me.

I have never really seen this as a matter of degrees - and perhaps that's where the disconnect lies. We all try and compare ourselves to one another - CD / TG / TS / whatever - as if here were a scale (spectrum?) upon which we fall: there isn't. We each experience our gender - internal and external - in very personal ways. And while we can draw some connections between ourselves - I consider it rather presumptuous to think that we can be ranked on some scale of trans-intensity.

This whole broken idea that trans-ness can be deconstructed in a way that it's something quantitative - with transsexuals at the top end of the scale and the 'gender variants' occupying the lowest end - has done more harm to us as a group than it has good. Are crossdressers any less effected by their experience of gender then are transsexuals? Both have a different experience to be sure, but can it really be expressed quantitatively? I don't think it can be - and trying to do so does a disservice to both groups.

And with respect to the 'seriousness' of gender... Gender is a game: a game which we are forced to play and no one really knows the rules - if in fact there are any set rules. I have a lot of respect for crossdressers who are happy doing what they do and wanting to do it as best as they can. They have fun with gender and don't allow it to rule their lives in quite the same way many of us do. Why are they perceived as being 'less serious' about all of this? Their needs are as real as any of ours - why discount them because they are different.

Regards,
Donna

kim85

12-18-2007, 06:13 PM

I know that another forum that me so is on is a TS based one and quite often he/she is ignore as for him its just the clothes has no real interest in wigs and make-up. Hes had negative responses and has been told that that is the reason. So in that respect i personally think that yes there is a divide althought i dont see why. As so many have said they still face a few of the same problems/suituations

Kim
xxx

Taylor Anne

12-18-2007, 06:18 PM

I REALLY LIKE what Kehleyr has written! So wonderfully honest and very brave to bare her feelings. Like Brylram, I can’t understand the vehemence in one of the posts. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.

And, like Tasha, I’ve been extremely tentative in posting for fear of upsetting someone with my ignorance. But, when I read such honest posts, like Kehleyr’s and others, it inspires me to write something and share the risk of vulnerability.

As I contemplate going to my first outing and TS conference, I’m particularly interested in this topic, too. Since I’ve not been out and about, I don’t have an experience with the prejudice. But from my online experiences, I think there probably is a bit of prejudice. But, like many have said, isn’t that just human nature regardless of one’s orientation?

And, I agree with Kehleyr and others: it’s an individual thing, and it has a lot to do with insecurity. Part of developing identity delves into discerning differences, comparing and contrasting. Sometimes people can feel threatened by what they see, or they may not.

As a naïve CD who is thoroughly impressed by the whole TS spectrum, one of my fears is having an embarrassing response—based upon just lack of experience and knowledge and understanding. Well, nothing ventured, nothing gained—in learning and comprehension. That’s another reason why I liked Kehleyr’s responses—she gave some really useful insight in behavioral interactions that I just don’t have as yet. (And great thanks to Sharon for bringing up the topic, too!)

12-18-2007, 07:32 PM

well if you are asking in general then yes there are some but we are all not like that, respect everyones wishes and try to get along after all very few cd'r and trans can totally pass acceptance is the key .. lets be real here after all if we can't be honest here then we are hopeless

ericalynncd

12-18-2007, 07:46 PM

It's sad. We really don't need to be working against each other. If we are going to be accepted in society, we need to be accepted in our commUNITY.

battybattybats

12-18-2007, 08:36 PM

Maybe you should try accepting other people for how they want to live, how they want to act when they are going out for a night on the town... If these people don't quite fit into your lifestyle, how the hell is society ever going to change? Quit looking down your nose at people, it's getting annoying now :mad: Crossdressers have every right to do what the hell they like when they are out...

I concur with this Tamara, well said!
Though I don't blame people who find themselves feeling uncomfortable around people who are different, unconcious absorbtion of bigotry isn't deliberate so is relatively blameless.

However if somone finds themselves uncomfortable around or especially critical towards or bigoted of a group of people they have a definite and distinct responsibility to overcome that prejudice and we should all be willing to help people with such unconcious handicaps to realise they have this problem and overcome it.

I've always concured with the notion 'No-one may fairly claim a right that they do not freely extend to others' (and I'd perhaps add publicly defend of others). So anyone who wants to say that any group, crossdressers, fetishistic crossdressers, TS or any other such should not express themselves freely, well then morally ou really shouldn't use that right to free expression yourself unless you change your view so might I suggest that you be honest about it and apply the same rules to yourself, go and put on a burka and send all your nice clothes to me or other impoverished CDs :D

Humour aside though, we all have to deal with some internalised transphobia to some extent (and/or homophobia, racism, sexism, ageism etc). We each have a responsibility to search that out within ourselves, challenge it and overcome it.

Wendi {LI NY}

12-18-2007, 10:24 PM

First off I would like to thank sharon for putting up this thread.
I started out as a crossdresser and then I found my true self.
I also said that I felt like we lived in a Caste socity . Post -ops lived their lives and got a long with pre-ops if they were transitioning all the way . Some post-ops did help Pre-ops ,but for the most part they keep to their selfs . Cds were step children and were silly and not worth post -ops time of day or even talk to cds. Then passables post-ops were not tolerant of non-passable post-ops .then we have the drag-Queens and Cds didnt like them .Then there was the gender -benders at the bottom of the list .Like the untouchables in the Indian culture . I seen it at SCC, IFGE,and many other Trans Conventions that I attended over the years .
I personally didn't care for it but I do see some changes coming that i didn't see years ago .
In defense of Kehleyr ,I seen things that I shook my head and said to myself ."Gee are these people for real ". Like Cds not acting like ladys in the ladies restrooms . Talking like Truckdrivers in public and acting like men that they are ! If you are dressing in public the lest people should do is act like who you are trying represent. I for one say Live and let live,but not around me .
Also in defense of passable post-ops ,they want to live their life in stealth and be real .They are not going to outed their selfs in public by being with non-passable gender people or Crossdressers. [sorry it is true ].
Well I said my peace .. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
hugs,Wendi

Genifer Teal

12-18-2007, 11:19 PM

I've waited to chime in on this. This is a hot topic for good reason. Everyone looks at the situation their own way. Two facts complicate things. The extremely wide spectrum of behaiviors in our all encompasing group, and the limmited knowledge society has of us and who we really are.

Society has limmited exposure to any of our kind. They don't know we come in so many different varieties. They group us all together into something they don't understand. When the news reports about some crossdressig panty thief running around the neighborhood, any one of us becomes suspect. This is an extreme example, but it illustrates how one person's behavior can affect the publics opion of each and every one of us.

It is hard to say who is to blame. People should not be so quick to associate one persons behavior to an entire group. Unfrotunately it happens. Weather it is a gay guy caught giving head in the bathroom or a tranny walking through the park at nite in heels with almost no clothes on, society will judge the whole group by the behavior of the few. (To all you late nite park walkers, if you don't wear enough clothes, you will offend me)

I can accept the diversity among our group. Everyone here likes their own special part of what we do. I can accept that we are all in this together and therefore we need to show unity and support each other regardless of our differences. I'll march in the same parade with you. It doesn't change the fact that someone elses behavior in public can and will affect how others perceive me and my place in the TG/CD umbrella.

I watched my own brother freak out when he learned about me. I was not there, so I can only imagine the picture he painted in his mind. Where did he get these ideas from? Probably the media. Now I have to explain to my brother that was not me in the park the other nite. (Not really, but his ideas were not much different). Society has already formed some pretty strong ideas of what we are about. Odd public behavior from anyone in our group will reinforce those ideas.

Do I have the right to tell someone from our community how to dress or act in public? No. I can only hope they show some common decency and respect for others and property. If someone can't do that, then they are not the kind of person I want to associate with.

Genifer

helenr

12-19-2007, 01:01 AM

I find it interesting what individuals focus on. Maybe it is like a continuum with the extremes being someone who gets quick sexual release by wearing a pair of panties to the other extreme where after lengthy and careful consideration, SRS occurs. some of the subjects on the clothing site-eg.what are you wearing today--seem a bit childish to the more serious topics on the Transgender site. I do believe that the Transgender site suffers when one completes SRS and basically wishes to leave our in-between world and live fully as a female. I respect the huge sacrifices made to 'get there' and wish them only the best. I think libido loss is a key factor in being able to focus on the key aspects of transgenderism. I think this comes as you get older and less 'excited' by transvestism and/or the influence of anti androgens to keep your mind quiet and lets one enjoy the calm pleasure of 'feeling female' as best we can. We must always be careful not to offend GGs as I am sure they feel we can't conceivably know what it is to be a woman. All we can do is try our best not to offend. As far as feeling superior or bored by the crossdressers , we must try to be understanding.It is not a fun addiction--to be drawn to crossdressing, the risk of exposure, embarassment, possibly loss of a wife/girlfriend. It seems incurable and it is great the the Internet can offer a source for understanding-when I was in 6th grade or so my only 'reference' was the dictionary!

JackieInPA

12-19-2007, 01:38 AM

Interesting thread here. TBH I detest lables. I have spent every minute since i knew the difference between boys and girls wishing i was a girl. I have spent all my life dressing when i can. But i also have a wife, that i do love. I had a coupla people describe me as a lesbian in a man's body..i can actually run with that. I have thougth about SRS and all it entails when i was younger, but the idea of going through that..i just couldnt and cant do it. I just feel that i would be butchering myself, i do not condemn anyone else for doing it, as a matter of fact i admire them for their courage and determination. I pass pretty well, as a matter of fact if i dotn dress like a lumberjack and grow 3 days worth of beard i will get ma'amed as much as sir'd. I enjoy my dressed time, i feel like i have come home. I love to go out and just for a time immerse myself in the illusion. then its back to reality. So i really dont know what lable i would be assigned, and i really dont care. I live for me. I Believe firmly and try to live by the Golden Rule, in this case if you want to be accepted, accept someone else.

Sharon

12-19-2007, 01:46 AM

I'll be perfectly honest with you all -- there are times that I actually grimace when I see a crossdresser dressing or acting in a manner that I find demeaning not only to him or her, but to every other TG/CD person out there. I wonder how many people who encounter such an individual would just assume that all of us are the same, as so few people actually know anything more than over-the-top Jerry Springer Show type crossdressers. People who see and make me don't know that I'm transsexual. All they may think is that I'm just another guy getting his jollies looking like a woman. And before you attack me on writing that last sentence, I am projecting what I feel are the thoughts of a large part of the general population, not my own.

However, just because I would choose not to associate with someone I feel uncomfortable with, that does not mean that I don't allow them the right to express themselves as they wish. They are no better nor worse a person than I am, excepting if I believe they are doing something that I may see as being immoral, just different.

Should I belittle or mock a person who may dress and behave in a manner I find appropriate any differently because he or she may not be passable? Should I treat unattractive men or women badly also? How about people of other races or faiths than my own? It would be a very lonely life if I did so.

Until the day I reach perfection myself, then I prefer to treat every one respectfully, even if it is sometimes difficult to do so.

Dania

12-19-2007, 02:45 AM

Kerrianna,

After reading a number of responses in this thread I think you might be on to something.

While I loathe any type of discrimination (direct, indirect, or otherwise) I believe that there could be something to the idea of those who identify as TS have a binary gender expression.

Honestly, I don't always understand the motivations of CDs, I thought I was one once but their experiences always stop short of a level I can understand.

I agree we don't need to be holding hands with everyone we meet, but life is already conflicting enough. The fact is, we have a common bond which holds us together. We, more then anyone else should be accepting and understanding, for if we aren't we will surely be divided forever.

On the practical side, I'll admit that I have an uneasiness around CDs and TS people who don't really pass that well, but I know that comes from insecurity with myself. I'm working on that.

Anyway, such division is a terrible way to go. Our motives may be different, but that shouldn't stop us from learning from and accepting each other.

Where is the Capt with the rum when you need it? :drink:

kerrianna

12-19-2007, 06:02 AM

I sometimes feel I am swimming against the current these days when I see what passes as entertainment on TV and news in the media, but one thing I am finding liberating and making me a happier person (besides finding a truer self expression) is to actively curtail my impulse to judge another person. I don't always succeed. Sometimes judgement masks itself as concern, or guidance, or knowledge. But the key I am finding is when I hear that little voice in my head say "so and so shouldn't be" or "I wouldn't do that" or something similar. That's all about ME placing MYSELF on YOU. That's judgement and control.

When I let go of that, no matter how entitled I may feel, no matter how much logical sense it makes for me to think something about another person, ...when I let go of that it means they are no longer entitled, in my mind, to think the same way about me, and that means I can feel free to be me without fear of being judged.

JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED

Kate Simmons

12-19-2007, 08:29 AM

What really makes a person a person? Hard to say, right? I suppose we all have certain "standards of excellence" for ourselves that we gauge ourselves by. What happens, however, when we "extend" those standards to others? Potentially dangerous territory in my mind and doing that tends to create divisions among us. I have to look at the big picture and what we are trying to accomplish. Is it not really freedom to express ourselves as we feel and being allowed to be who we want to be? What if that means I want to express myself as Sal while looking like Rich? I do it all the time and am accepted for it and it illustrates tolerance on both sides and how diversity really works. In short, it makes me feel good.

The bottom line is that we cannot always have our "cake" and eat it too and this is where real wisdom comes in. The point is that I find it so much easier just to accept others for who they are and not throw up artificial "barriers"because by doing that I'm not only interfering with their happiness but my own as well as it disrupts the free flow of energy, interchange and encouragement. It's high time we all realized that and work together to keep these "barriers" where they really belong which is in the trash bin. Works for me:happy:

Nicole Erin

12-19-2007, 11:05 PM

We have had many mentions in this forum that there is a hierarchal prejudice among transsexuals towards crossdressers. While this may be true with individual TSs, could it also be true as a general statement? Quite likely. Altho many won't admit it.

When speaking of individuals, I have seen that there is even a bias of one crossdresser towards another who has different desires, dressing preferences, and whether they are in the closet or not. To me, a CD is a CD, we are all men underneath the pretty clothes.

It's bad enough we sometimes have to deal with crap from so-called "normal" members of society, but to see it here just surprises the hell out of me and just ticks me off to no end. Yeah, there may be individuals who make choices that we may not agree with or understand, but to denigate everyone for the actions of a few is just ignorant and doesn't belong -- not just here on the forum, but anywhere.

Comments?

Well with us CD's, we know what we are - men in dresses, whether we "pass" or not. A lot of TS tend to think they are F.A.B.'s who were born with a penis. I have been around plenty of CD and TS, and honestly, the TS's tend to have more issues.

And with the TS hiearchy, it seems their level of TS-ness has a lot to do with how much surgery they have had or how well they pass. I am glad I am not TS cause frankly, I could not afford all the electro, FFS, SRS, whatever.

Sharon

12-19-2007, 11:11 PM

Well with us CD's, we know what we are - men in dresses, whether we "pass" or not. A lot of TS tend to think they are F.A.B.'s who were born with a penis. I have been around plenty of CD and TS, and honestly, the TS's tend to have more issues.

And with the TS hiearchy, it seems their level of TS-ness has a lot to do with how much surgery they have had or how well they pass. I am glad I am not TS cause frankly, I could not afford all the electro, FFS, SRS, whatever.

Not to argue with you, but I am fully aware of what I am. :happy:

AmberTG

12-20-2007, 02:10 AM

I will agree that the life of a TG person is more complicated. We have more issues because we feel the need to live the life, not just express it outwardly. That doesn't make us better or worse then a CD person, just a bit different.
I'm no better or worse then a New York City Drag Queen, for instance, just different.

KillerKirsi

12-20-2007, 02:35 AM

Personally, I don't get why we'd want to divide ourselves any further. We're all already in a minority, what's the point of trying to separate ourselves even more? While I'll admit that I can't always relate to an MtF CDer because sometimes the issues we face are very different, I never see myself above anyone. People are people and I'm the last person who should be judging people based on the whole 'not trans enough' silliness.

Agreed, there's a definite, albeit absurd, elitist sect in our little trans-world. It happens in all grups of people, it's what we do. We can control it though, so there really is no excuse for it to be as big as it is.

kerrianna

12-20-2007, 04:23 AM

Well with us CD's, we know what we are - men in dresses, whether we "pass" or not. A lot of TS tend to think they are F.A.B.'s who were born with a penis. I have been around plenty of CD and TS, and honestly, the TS's tend to have more issues.

And with the TS hiearchy, it seems their level of TS-ness has a lot to do with how much surgery they have had or how well they pass. I am glad I am not TS cause frankly, I could not afford all the electro, FFS, SRS, whatever.

Erk!

Here I am breaking my own promise not to judge..

All I'll say is... an informed opinion is only that if you are actually informed before hand.

Your lack of empathy and understanding undermines your words.

GypsyKaren

12-20-2007, 08:22 AM

And with the TS hiearchy, it seems their level of TS-ness has a lot to do with how much surgery they have had or how well they pass.

Can't say I've ever come across this in my "hierarchy", we are what we are, surgery or "passing" be damned. What we do for ourselves is a solution to a problem, not a check point for a ratings card, and for the issues we face, one of them is dealing with ignorance like this.

Karen Starlene :star:

Kate Simmons

12-20-2007, 08:41 AM

Yeah, now say if you and I were to kid around about this stuff Karen, we would know we were kidding because we know each other. The sad thing is that people really believe in this "hierarchy" BS and take it to heart. I'll take one from from Maxwell Smart and ask:" Wouldja believe it's about people being people?" Agent 99 would say:"I find that very hard to believe Max." Seems like some have taken the "bait" but some of us are just a wee bit smarter than that. Like Sharon, I find it incredible that these attitudes exist at all, especially within this community. It can be changed but only if we all work on it. It's as simple or as difficult as that really.:happy:

androgyne

12-20-2007, 11:24 AM

I have observed a bias of post-op TS towards trangenderists (non-op), as well as CDs. Because of it, I have distanced myself from some of the boards I used to frequent. However, it is only a small percentage of ppl and doesn't imply that everyone feels the same way about it. I prefer not to focus on this negative aspect, since it exists in all scenes.

MinaB

12-28-2007, 05:56 PM

We all do what we do because it's us being comfortable with who we are. The trans community aside, this applies for gays, lesbians and bisexuals as well. No one should ever be put down or told that "they're just pretending" because of the way they go about it.

kerrianna

12-29-2007, 10:55 PM

I've been thinking about this and I think it's natural for someone who is TS to feel a bit 'put off' (for lack of a better term) by CDers who they see as 'playing' at being female. (I'm excluding the guys here because FTM crossdressing isn't seen the same way, although I am curious if any FTM TS here feel the same way about Natal Females they see as 'playing' at being male)

For a TS person, this is no game. Many have killed themselves or turned to drugs and alcohol and other addictions and risky behaviour, or have severe depression, because of their GID.

So the guys that like to 'explore' their feminine side might come across as flippant. The TS might be envious that they don't feel they can take it so casually.

I'm not saying all CDers 'play' 'explore' or 'take it so casually' - I'm saying some might be perceived in that manner, because when one is very serious and wrapped up with something, the people you feel are on the periphery of that can irk you more...because they almost get it, but then you think they don't really understand you. It's like that with lots of things in life. It's not really fair, and it can be detrimental to your own self, but it's human nature.

For example... my brother was born white. But he grew up identifying strongly with the Native culture of our region. He respected them more than most white people and he learned the proper way of practising their art and design. He was in turn a very gifted artist in that field. He had many native friends. But in the end he was never seen as one them, and in fact was disliked more by some native people because they just saw him as a 'wannabe'. Which was very sad, because he was a terrific ally of the very people who resented him.

I think some CDers are an excellent bridge for TS. They can empathize and understand. Maybe they don't feel exactly the same way, but they are closer to TS people than anyone else in some regards.

Some, just don't get it and are intimidated by TS people. They don't want to BE one for one thing and if they don't understand they are afraid of how it might work. The same way some of them will acknowledge they CD but then vehemently deny they are gay. It's just ignorance and fear.

But for the most part I think most of us here have a pretty good crossover understanding and sympathy. There is a point though where some CDs see the seriousness of what it means to be TS and don't understand it because it's not the same for them. And TS people wish that those CDers would acknowledge that, although the reality is that no one is forced to. It's just human nature to want to be respected for your truths, either way.

I'm not sure if that made any sense lol.
I was thinking about how I have felt when I am 'serious' and people around me not only don't seem to get my 'seriousness' but act like it's something fun for them.

I'm sure many natal females feel that way about their CDing partners at times too.

The thing is....we've seen how great CDing can be not only for individuals but for the world. That's why we need to keep working on inclusiveness and respect. I would never want to discourage someone from exploring all aspects of their selves and becoming more complete people. :happy: