What went wrong? nature and history

[becky t]

Question,

Throughout history, especially european, men have always been the ones to stand out, in the early 17th/ 18th centuries men commonly wore wigs / makeup etc ....they still do in our court system

In nature the male is almost always the most prominent brightly coloured thing, take the male peacock for instance or the kingfisher or even the lion...

Why is it then that we are meant to feel out of place wearing makeup, wearing a wig, wearing brightly coloured nail polish???, whats gone wrong?

maybe its because we are aspiring or pretending to be the opposite sex for a while but would we need to do so if society were more open minded?

personally i enjoy it the way it is, how does everyone else think?

[Ruth]

Becky, this is a very good question. I so wish I knew the answer!

[Deanna2]

Haven't you heard that fashion changes. Two thousand years ago Roman men wore skirts (they called them togas back then). Fast forward to the present and you will find that Tahitian men and other Pacific Islander men wear skirts, although they are called other names. I was on Tahiti a couple of years ago and when I saw the skirts (actually more like wraps) I couldn't wait to buy one. I wear it a lot in the summer time and no one says BOO!

[Amelia Moxon]

I think, correct me if I am wrong but heels were worn by men originally (ok not 4" stiletto’s) but low heels for the purpose of horse riding so your feet didn't slip out of the syrups, i.e. the classic cowboy boot.

Amelia x

[shirley1]

good question thought about it myself sometimes - something changed i think around the mid 19th century - mens role became more of the breadwinner who has to adopt a more sensible or conservative look to be respected in the community - i did read something once along these lines at least may not have got it totally accurate - but society definately changed at some point and maybe women then adopted the peacock role as there has to be a need for it somewhere

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I think, correct me if I am wrong but heels were worn by men originally (ok not 4" stiletto’s) but low heels for the purpose of horse riding so your feet didn't slip out of the syrups, i.e. the classic cowboy boot.

Amelia x

You would be correct ;)

[Sarah Doepner]

At one time Pink was the boy's color and Blue was for girls. Pink was considered to be closer to red and blood, making it a man's color. It all changes and then it changes again.
Everything we are doing is helping to shift the culture around a little more, so we need to keep it up. Encourage those who adopt the "Metro-sexual" styles, support those TG folks who are out and public and question anyone who is set on keeping the current stereotypes in place.

[Kate Simmons]

I think the only thing that went wrong was that somewhere along the line society as we know it became a bunch of "lead heads" with no imagination, stopped thinking of people as being unique individuals, basically lost their objectivity and traded it in for so called practicality. Kinda boring really.:rolleyes:

[SandyR]

Sometimes life is just not fair, but its good to know in the past us "guys" got a chance to girly up a bit. Maybe history will repeat itself....

Hugs!

SandyR

[Alex!]

The answer is relatively simple - the superficial has been replaced by power. Power is the tool men use to attract women in industrialized countries. Since most men have little power or even confidence, the bar has been lowered such that women don't really know the difference anyway. What intrigues me more is that women in these societies are picking up the gauntlet of power and are making substantial changes to the status quo, finally.

This is an interesting subject that deserves a better and less cynical answer than I have provided here, but I think it is close enough for this forum.

[Lisa Rose]

The answer is relatively simple - the superficial has been replaced by power. Power is the tool men use to attract women in industrialized countries. Since most men have little power or even confidence, the bar has been lowered such that women don't really know the difference anyway. What intrigues me more is that women in these societies are picking up the gauntlet of power and are making substantial changes to the status quo, finally.

This is an interesting subject that deserves a better and less cynical answer than I have provided here, but I think it is close enough for this forum.


You're very close. It was the Industrial Age in general that changed things. 1880's. Industrialization means efficiency. As the industrial giants, movement experts, military experts etc will tell you: there's no room for soft, weak, pretty etc where your most important role is to produce--as fast and efficiently as you can. Hence the men go 'off to work', 'off to war', etc and the 'pretty' women are to stay home to have and raise babies. All of these 'roles' were for the 'betterment' of society and country.

Interestingly enough, if you ever have the chance to visit third world countries you'll come to see that the art work, love of life, and colors in their clothing are far more evident. Their 'need' to be doing something all of time is far less important. Living within nature is more important.

[Mixie]

Well then, do we here represent a certain new philosophy? By cross-dressing, are we also saying that we wish to live in a country that places more emphasis on personal enjoyment, and less on production? I think it is safe to say that I feel this way.

I dress like a woman, because in actuality I just want to dress beautifully. I want my pressence to be like a piece of artwork that people will enjoy looking at, compared to the doldrum of normal lifes visuals. I want to improve life for myself and those around me on THAT scale. Hey, at least it feels substantial in MY head ^_^

[shirley1]

At one time Pink was the boy's color and Blue was for girls. Pink was considered to be closer to red and blood, making it a man's color. It all changes and then it changes again.
Everything we are doing is helping to shift the culture around a little more, so we need to keep it up. Encourage those who adopt the "Metro-sexual" styles, support those TG folks who are out and public and question anyone who is set on keeping the current stereotypes in place.

straight question - why did it change in the first place ie pink for boys blue for girls - but more to the point you know as well as i do pink is classed as a girly color in todays society - but is blue classed as a male color anymore ? women/females have infultrated male culture - i dont know if i hve said this before but i really believe that masculinity is a waste of time in todays society it only excists still because men think they need it to get a women and women still are brought up to believe a real man should be masculine - knights in shining armour dont really excist anymore - and besides they wore skirts anyway

[jennifer41356]

basically two words...industrial revolution:Angry3:

[shirley1]

basically two words...industrial revolution:Angry3:

ok so why arnt things changin now that eras over with ?

[Mixie]

Oh, I think they are changing. It's just that we're so far over to the side that it's hard for us to see. It's like trying to look across the street with a microscope. But it does kind of seem like the whole "Metro-sexual" thing was a fad that seems to have ended. Still, I think men are shifting toward the feminine. I saw a cell phone commercial the other day with a dude who had long, permed hair, glossy lips, tight jeans, and a shirt which showed his stomach. I didn't particularly think that they did as classy of a job as they could have, portraying a feminine man, but it's still a step. It wasn't even supposed to be for comedy either!

[shirley1]

Oh, I think they are changing. It's just that we're so far over to the side that it's hard for us to see. It's like trying to look across the street with a microscope. But it does kind of seem like the whole "Metro-sexual" thing was a fad that seems to have ended. Still, I think men are shifting toward the feminine. I saw a cell phone commercial the other day with a dude who had long, permed hair, glossy lips, tight jeans, and a shirt which showed his stomach. I didn't particularly think that they did as classy of a job as they could have, portraying a feminine man, but it's still a step. It wasn't even supposed to be for comedy either!

i dont see it where i live birmingham england - all being a male seems to be in this country is about gettin laid - drinking alchohol - watching football - and having a go at anyone who is in any way different from them ie the so called norm in society - i used to go out socially with guys who did just that - i think i hate being male these days not because i want or wish to become a women but because they all seem to be bought up to be total brain washed ignorant morons - thats why i dont go out dressed i'm not worries about the women or girls the most theyll do is have a bit of a giggle - so what !

[Mixie]

You know, I will agree with you very much on that. Don't get me wrong, guy stuff here is pretty much the same as you described. And I for one have no interest in a vast majority of it. That's a big part of what makes me who I am. You won't catch ME yelling at the sports players on the TV.

[trannie T]

Becky T's simple question is worthy of a doctoral dissertation or two in anthropology or sociology. The reason men are now drab and women colorful is probably based in the Industrial Revolution, the rise of the middle class, instinctive sexual attraction and many more factors.
Whatever the cause, as a male to female crossdresser I get to wear cool clothes.

[shirley1]

Becky T's simple question is worthy of a doctoral dissertation or two in anthropology or sociology. The reason men are now drab and women colorful is probably based in the Industrial Revolution, the rise of the middle class, instinctive sexual attraction and many more factors.
Whatever the cause, as a male to female crossdresser I get to wear cool clothes.

yeh but do you wear them to go down to your local bank, supermarket ect if you do fair play but if not then you are wearing them closeted - why arnt women closeted in the same way - thats what i dont understand !

[battybattybats]

Well... women were very restricted in their clothes.
Layers and layers of petticoats corsetry dresses and skirts that made much physical activity difficult.

They rebelled. Women started wearing less, they showed their ankles so they could ride bycicles and gain freedom of movement. They faced arrest to wear bathing suits that people could safely swim in without drowning. Some even started wearing pants!

These things were a big deal at the time. People got arrested for them.

But society was getting all the more restrictive. Especialy on males but also children in general. You had a dichotomy where childhood was idealised and filled with exaggerated nostalgia while the actual kids were 'to be seen and not heard' etc. The role of the father became ever more reduced until it was that of distant and cold authority.

[shirley1]

Well... women were very restricted in their clothes.
Layers and layers of petticoats corsetry dresses and skirts that made much physical activity difficult.

They rebelled. Women started wearing less, they showed their ankles so they could ride bycicles and gain freedom of movement. They faced arrest to wear bathing suits that people could safely swim in without drowning. Some even started wearing pants!

These things were a big deal at the time. People got arrested for them.

But society was getting all the more restrictive. Especialy on males but also children in general. You had a dichotomy where childhood was idealised and filled with exaggerated nostalgia while the actual kids were 'to be seen and not heard' etc. The role of the father became ever more reduced until it was that of distant and cold authority.


so if what your sayings right and i've no reason to doubt you because it makes total sense to me - the problem we have now is male clothin is based on convention and sensibility - womens clothing isnt its based on attracting attention and the other gender - therefore its a totally different ball game ! i have thought about this if a guy stands to have a piss how does he do it easily wearing a long frilly skirt ! the reality is now people should have the choice how they dress in everyday life - it isnt about whats practical or right or wrong for people anymore - we live in about a normal practical world as is possible - but its just boring after you get past the excitement of livin !

[Mary Morgan]

Becky, what a great question. Now hopefully someone will have a great answer. As for me, I do not want to be a pretty man. I want to emulate women. So I suppose if men were free to wear make-up and otherwise be the "pretty ones", I'd be opting to be plain and feminine. I'm just glad that women are the pretty ones, and not the other way around.

[Jilmac]

Becky, it's a very good question and one i have asked myself. I don't really know when it started, or which culture it began with but I do know that in some countrys and some cultures men still wear whaps that resemble skirts. Scotland is a fine example of men in skirts. The scottish kilt has been a traditional male garb for centuries.

I saw an old Phil Donahue show many years ago where Phil walked out on stage wearing a skirt that was designed specifically for men. He had several guests (all male) who also were wearing skirts. This was supposed to be a new fashion trend for men to coincide with the women's lib movement.

At the time I saw this, I had hoped it would result in a breakthrough that would have put men's and women's clothes into a unisex catagory. But alas, it never happened,it was a pipe dream that never came true. In Scotland the kilt is the ultimate masculine attire. If this country would adopt the Scottish tradition, or start that fashion trend from the Phil Donahue episode, I think we would see a lot more proud men in skirts and dresses.:2c::hugs: Jill

[Pippilotta]

It was a combination of three events: 1 the French revolution 2 English country-side fashion 3 the Industrial revolution. One needs to remember that high heels, long curly wigs, beautiful fabrics, silk stockings (a beautiful male leg was much admired) and make-up were really only for the upper "leisured" classes. An egalitarian society does not tolerate such.

[goofus]

Question,

In nature the male is almost always the most prominent brightly coloured thing, take the male peacock for instance or the kingfisher or even the lion...



Actually, in North America, the female Belted Kingfisher is more colorful than the male. Additionally, in many species of birds (like Blue Jays) both the male and female have bold coloration, so, as you point out, there are exceptions to the rule... :nerd:

[JoAnnDallas]

I wondered about this subject and decided to do a little research. What I found did surprise me a little. Up till the mid 1800's men wore wigs, makeup, blush, powder, lipstick, nail polish, and perfume. Just like the women did. They were also very masculine too. LOL Anyway, this was before what we call modern medicine, sanitation, and hygiene. Back then disease ran rampart. If someone came down sick, they either got better or died. If they got better, these disease could take their toll on the person. Pock marks, blemishes, hair loss, and discolored nail beds for just a few. Women covered up these by wearing makeup, blush, powder, lipstick, and nail polish. Men did the same thing for the same reason. Lace and high heels in men was because the King was short and wore 3-4" high heel shoes, so that he would be taller. He also liked lacy garments. He might have been either Gay or Enfiminate. Hardly anyone bath on a regular basis, so both men and women wore perfume to cover up the bad body odor. Then starting in the mid 1800's, politics, war, medicine, sanitation, and hygiene changed. Doctors discovered what was really causing diseases and came up with new medicines, improved sanitation, and hygiene. Thus men no longer needed to wear wigs, makeup, blush, powder, lipstick, perfume, or nail polish. Women continued because men liked it on the women. Politics changed and kings were out and fashions changed.

[battybattybats]

But people didn't bathe fpr the same reason they drank wine and not water. The water was frequently badly polluted and carried disease.

Hiding pock-marks sure wasn't the reason that suits of platemail armour had, for a time, a fashion of having a tiny feminine waist, enhanced bust and built in skirt! While some small skirting was practical for protecting the tops of the legs where the hip-thigh joint could be vulnerable these were not all practical, they were applying deliberatly feminine shape to full plate mail armour!

The use of make up goes back at least to ancient Egypt, Assyria and Babylon where both men and women wore make-up.

[Lisa Rose]

Well then, do we here represent a certain new philosophy? By cross-dressing, are we also saying that we wish to live in a country that places more emphasis on personal enjoyment, and less on production? I think it is safe to say that I feel this way.

I dress like a woman, because in actuality I just want to dress beautifully. I want my pressence to be like a piece of artwork that people will enjoy looking at, compared to the doldrum of normal lifes visuals. I want to improve life for myself and those around me on THAT scale. Hey, at least it feels substantial in MY head ^_^

I've made this comment before, but it could be associated with the changing from the Age of Piscis (aka the Industrial/Masculine Age) to the Age of Aquarius, a more feminine age. Some believed the Age of Aquarius was to start in the 1960's, others thought it started in the New Millineum. I just think, as with the rest of the Universe, change is a slow process and we're just coming into this change.

[Nicki B]

In nature the male is almost always the most prominent brightly coloured thing, take the male peacock for instance or the kingfisher or even the lion...

Why is it then that we are meant to feel out of place wearing makeup, wearing a wig, wearing brightly coloured nail polish???, whats gone wrong?

Well - are you really wearing what you're wearing to make yourself feel more masculine? :strugglin

[battybattybats]

I've made this comment before, but it could be associated with the changing from the Age of Piscis (aka the Industrial/Masculine Age) to the Age of Aquarius, a more feminine age. Some believed the Age of Aquarius was to start in the 1960's, others thought it started in the New Millineum. I just think, as with the rest of the Universe, change is a slow process and we're just coming into this change.

Huh? The age of aquarius is feminine? But Aquarius in myth was a male... albeit a slender, boyish, talkative, know-it-all male. The gods let him up to Olympus because of his fascinating insights but found him boring and overbearing in large doses so they put him in the heavens as a constellation so they could visit him for brief periods, enough to enjoy but not so much as to be tedious.

So doesn't that mean the age of aquarius is to be the age of soft gentle masculinity, nerdiness, creativity, intelligence and over-enthusiastic talkative behaviour?

[JoAnnDallas]

Bats wrote:


So doesn't that mean the age of aquarius is to be the age of soft gentle masculinity, nerdiness, creativity, intelligence and over-enthusiastic talkative behaviour?

Sounds like most of us. LOL

[shirley1]

Huh? The age of aquarius is feminine? But Aquarius in myth was a male... albeit a slender, boyish, talkative, know-it-all male. The gods let him up to Olympus because of his fascinating insights but found him boring and overbearing in large doses so they put him in the heavens as a constellation so they could visit him for brief periods, enough to enjoy but not so much as to be tedious.

So doesn't that mean the age of aquarius is to be the age of soft gentle masculinity, nerdiness, creativity, intelligence and over-enthusiastic talkative behaviour?

the problem as i see it is quite simple - i agree with all you say i know what happened in history - the problem for people like us is nothings much going to change in our lifetime ! - for whatever reason both men and women (society) seem happy with gender roles and fasion being the way it is - the problem i see in society at the moment i think is that women are being encouraged to infultratrate male domains - so therefore as long as thats classed as the norm to eradicate gender divide weve got no chance - most people still think men have it better than women in society - only cds know we dont - i think a lot of it has to do with materaial values - men generally earn more money than women -can avoid emotional ties in relationships easily - or easier than women can - remember once a women gets pregnant she can not run away from it - the problem as i see it is women and most men dont recognise some of us have different needs - the problem is were livin in the woman fighting for the rights era still

[becky t]

Well - are you really wearing what you're wearing to make yourself feel more masculine? :strugglin

not really wearing what i,m wearing to make myself feel more masculine when in drab mode but to put on a show of what people expect around where i live, its a tough neighbourhood here where men are men, if only they could see what i was wearing underneath the drab ha ha:heehee:

the question i originally posted is probably down to my own frustration at living in such a male dominated enviroment like here, it wont change unless i get the nerve to out myself to the small minded people, not a good thing to do...