GenderQueer Definitions

[CaptLex]

I think that's a seperate thread. I recently went to a panel discussion on genderqueer, and they took 10 minutes trying to define "genderqueer" (and weren't entirely successful, IMO). As you say, it's a slippery term.

For better discussion, I'm moving the discussion of what it means to be genderqueer here from the TransMasculine section.

Mostly I've heard it described as "queering up gender", or going against established ideas of what gender is (I don't think that's something that describes me), and it's a term often used to signify those that are between genders (which I am a bit). So please tell me, what does "genderqueer" mean to you . . . what's your understanding and definition of the term? Also, do you idenitfy this way and, if so, why? :raisedeyebrow:

[Kate Simmons]

Well, you know how I think Lex. In a pure sense the word "queer" means strange, so gender queer would mean strange to gender. Who fits that bill? Not too many people I know. The fact that we question these definitions shows me that we here have a better handle on it than the average person. If anyone is "gender queer" to me it's the so-called normal folks because they perpetuate the stereotypes for the most part and normally are not open to diversity and don't have much of a clue. Then again, I've seen the diversity in a real sense and in action while most have not.Real people being genuinely themselves. Call me a turnip.That is Sal thinking on it anyway.:happy:

[Valeria]

In a pure sense the word "queer" means strange, so gender queer would mean strange to gender. Who fits that bill? Not too many people I know.
As someone that self-identifies as queer, I'd like to say emphatically that it doesn't mean "strange" to me when used in this context. Better definitions would be "non-conformist" or "alternative". The most literal simple definition for current usage (when used to describe "queer people") is probably "non-heteronormative". I've also seen queer described as "breaking the rules for sex and gender".

Besides, compound words often have a meaning that diverges from some literalistic reading of the meanings of the individual words, so even if you were right about the meaning of the word "queer" in this context, that doesn't mean that your definition of genderqueer would necessarily follow.

[For the sake of clarity: I consider myself queer because I am a woman who is attracted primarily to other women. In the circles I move in, "queer" is perceived as less limiting than "lesbian", and thus it's a more popular choice amongst my friends. I don't consider myself queer because of my trans history.]


The fact that we question these definitions shows me that we here have a better handle on it than the average person.
Umm, people that identify as "genderqueer" have often questioned lots of definitions and labels. Queer theory and gender studies are a popular fields of study/discussion for genderqueer people, and I wouldn't presume to classify such people as average or lacking in understanding. To some extent, the genderqueer movement arose out of such fields.

[Valeria]

My informal "working" definition of genderqueer can probably be summarized as follows:

A genderqueer person is someone that identifies as both male and female, or neither male or female, unless they reject the "genderqueer" label in favor of something else.

I know, way to take a stand. :p

Another way of putting it is someone that completely rejects the gender binary as applying to them.

IMO, I identify too strongly as female to ever truly be genderqueer.

Part of the trick with defining labels like these is that I think that respecting self-identification is essential. Some people that nominally match my definition for "genderqueer" might prefer to think of themselves as "third gendered" instead. For that matter, I know women-loving women who reject the label "lesbian" in favor of "queer", and other women-loving women who reject the label "queer" in favor of "lesbian" - and they have detailed reasons for doing so in both cases.

Another key is that this is more about identity than presentation. Even if I decide to put on a nice suit and tie and play "drag king" for a night, that won't really make me genderqueer. That'll just make me a woman that likes playing with gender performance.

I used to think that merely intermingling my gender expression would make me genderqueer, but I now think that's only true if your identity matches. In fact, most self-identified genderqueer people I've met don't tend to go for a "genderf**ked" kind of extreme mixture of gender characteristics (though I know there are exceptions). Most of the ones I know tend to go more for androgyny, or even dressing fairly conventionally as one of the traditional genders (not necessarily their birth sex).

Anyway, this is all just a pretty simplistic view on the subject, IMO. If anyone who actually identifies as genderqueer wants to dispute any of my thoughts on the subject, I'll bow to their greater insight. The reality is that any short definition of genderqueer is probably going to omit some people that identify as such and/or include some people that don't. The boundaries are fuzzy.

[Nicki B]

A quote I saw last week on another trans board.. :devil:

"Their language tends to be highly confrontational and, if you are looking for a definition, forget it, they cannot even agree amongst themselves and the fact that you actually dare to ask is proof that you are a binary gender fascist!!!"

IME that's not the case - the basic premise seems to be that they disagree with enforced gender role models and stereotypes. But whoever you talk to, you get a different view (bit like the rest of the trans spectrum, really)? :)

[Kate Simmons]

Exactly Nicki. Much easier just to accept someone for who they are as a person and forget all the labels. But I digress.....

[Sally24]

My take on it from what I've read has been someone presenting something other than male or female. In other words, a quick look would not neccesarily tell you if this person was trying for a male or female look. A little of both, not alot of either type of thing. Whether to attract attention, or to just question the status quo of gender stereotypes.

Haven't had any first hand experience with any gender queers myself.

[Tobie]

Until my brain is more functional, I just wanted to state that I would probably fall under the broad 'definition' of genderqueer, but I prefer to identify as pangender.

The comment is added so that I now remember to come back and reply more at length later.

[kerrianna]

Simply put I think of genderqueer as not conforming to socially accepted norms of the binary genders. Whether that's through identity or just presentation, I'm not sure if people who self describe that way care. Genderqueer people also tend to not have much use for labelling I think. I think some people who self describe as genderqueer are more genderquestioning, but in doing so are also genderqueer...in a way. :happy:

In my case I think I am more gender variant, do the degree that I self identify as female. However, because of my presentation and lifestyle I end up actually living more as a genderqueer. I wouldn't describe myself as androgynous because I think that's more a conscious blend of both sexes to produce neither one or the other. What I end up doing is bending certain aspects in a non-comformist way. It's a more unpredictable state than androgyny.

Having said that, being genderqueer isn't where I want to be, I don't think. I actually have a strong cisgendered sense (being female), although intellectually I really like the idea of gender-fkng. It's the little anarchist in me. :devil:

[Sejd]

I like that! and have several friends here in our small town who often host the greatest parties with all kind of gender bending friends. Guys dressed up as women, but with beards, Women who looks like men, men who looks like pretty women, you name it, they have it. I personally feel very welcome in so called "Gender Queer" groups. It's definately a breath of fresh air. And in a way, we (the royal we of the CD community for crossdressers, their family and friends) are all a bit of gender queer, each in our own ways. I think I personally like the label because the word Queer seems right to me. I know I am not a woman although I feel like one and dress like one, so clearly (at least to me) I'm "Queer!!! I'm a TS, a TG yeah, I know - just another label, but that's what we spend so much time on here - trying to figure out who we are and what we feel.
Hugs
Sejd

[Marla S]

what's your understanding and definition of the term? Also, do you idenitfy this way and, if so, why? :raisedeyebrow:
My understanding of such terms is that they are a desperate attempts to box someone or something again that fails to fit into the "standard" boxes. Today it's queer tomorrow it's something else .. we can wait for the next invention of a term.

As an external description it actually doesn't matter what it is called. It only depends on whether it is meant and used respecting or disrespecting.

Major trouble will arise if "technical terms" that describe an observable phenomenon or cover a range of psychological criteria are used as self-identifier.
That's programed trouble, because no label however you define it will cover every aspect of an individual to every degree. Meaning the individual will eventually feel upset, misunderstood, tries to segregate from those that fit less or feels excluded, sees others that use the same label but are soooo different or even "embarrassing" etc. etc.

In particular if the individual is in the phase of getting a meaning to the own feelings and tries to fit in somewhere again.
This is a very sensitive phase, when individuals easily get upset and feel hurt. It's natural, but it is also paradox ... being/wanting to be different and trying to fit in to the norms at the same time.

I identify as all and neither. It's up to you how you call it.
As long as you don't mean it disrespecting and you don't try to tell me "if you are XXX you should be/do YYY", I am fine with it.

Personally I prefer trans as a "label" for a synergy which is different from the currently accepted "definitions" of man and woman which are based on and are a synergy of social gender and biological sex.

Simplified:
Man: gender manly, sex male
Woman: gender womanly, sex female
Trans: gender manly, sex female and gender womanly, sex male respectively.

[Mariah]

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Gender%20queer (http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Gender%20queer)
(note: this is based off of wikipeda there is not cerrent offical definition for gender queer in the Dictanary or Ecapedia it is just slang)

have a nice day :)

keris

[Anna the Dub]

It is not a term I would ever use, just sounds pejorative to me.

[Valeria]

Genderqueer people also tend to not have much use for labelling I think.
Having sat in a room filled with self-identified genderqueer people discussing the meaning of labels, I'm not sure I agree that this is a safe assumption to make.


I like that! and have several friends here in our small town who often host the greatest parties with all kind of gender bending friends. Guys dressed up as women, but with beards, Women who looks like men, men who looks like pretty women, you name it, they have it. I personally feel very welcome in so called "Gender Queer" groups. It's definately a breath of fresh air. And in a way, we (the royal we of the CD community for crossdressers, their family and friends) are all a bit of gender queer, each in our own ways.
I don't think that I'd use genderqueer as a synonym for gender non-conformist, so while all those people might be a bit queer in gender presentation, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are "genderqueer".

Also, it's extremely possible to engage in gender bending without being genderqueer (as the term is generally used by people that strongly identify with it), just as it's possible to be fairly gender normative in appearance while being genderqueer.


My understanding of such terms is that they are a desperate attempts to box someone or something again that fails to fit into the "standard" boxes. Today it's queer tomorrow it's something else .. we can wait for the next invention of a term.

As an external description it actually doesn't matter what it is called. It only depends on whether it is meant and used respecting or disrespecting.
Maybe these terms are used differently here, but in my region of the world genderqueer and queer are not synonyms. I'm proudly queer while not really being genderqueer at all. (I also don't think that "queer" is going away any time soon.)

Also, these terms aren't really attempts to externally label or "box" someone. I'm pretty certain that the term "genderqueer" was coined by people that self-identified as genderqueer. Obviously, they can be used externally, but that's not how I see them most often used.


It is not a term I would ever use, just sounds pejorative to me.
If someone tells me that they are genderqueer, I'm not going to refuse to honor their self identification.

[Cai]

It is not a term I would ever use, just sounds pejorative to me.

In what way?

[bi_weird]

Genderqueer = ME!
*laughs* I dunno, it just seems like me. Though generally I just think of myself as trans and leave it there. Genderqueer is anyone who picks the label. More specifically, I tend to think of genderqueer as people who don't fit into other categories neatly. Often they will present androgynously, but not as purposfully 'off' as someone who identifies as genderf*ck.

[Felix]

Wow!!!! What a thought provoking thread. I did study Gender at University loved every minute and transformed my life. As for the labels as ya all know I have decided to dis spell them as they have caused me more problems than they are worth. I am person who loves women but more specifically other women who love women :happy: does that make sense without labeling myself? I see myself as spiritually a woman but mentally as a male. I present always as male and call myself Felix to those I feel safe with. If some call me by my female name then so be it I don't stress about it. But on the other hand when I am out I prefer Felix. I have gone as far as correcting my gay friends and telling them I am Felix and thats what I prefer. They all know I want to be with a woman but my social life seems to be with them cos I feel totally at ease with them. They accept me for me and not as some freak not as some label. I know I haven't answered this the way that is wanted but I didn't want to use the labels xx Felix :hugs:

[Anna the Dub]

In what way?

I have heard so many people being abused and taunted throughout the years with the term 'queer' that to then use the term myself to describe someone sounds a bit off to me. If someone identifies themselves as genderqueer i will quite happily refer to them that way. I don't mean to cause offence to anyone and I am the first to admit I am not really familiar with all the various terms used to describe us all who are attracted to these forums.

[Cathii]

As someone that self-identifies as queer, I'd like to say emphatically that it doesn't mean "strange" to me when used in this context. Better definitions would be "non-conformist" or "alternative". The most literal simple definition for current usage (when used to describe "queer people") is probably "non-heteronormative". I've also seen queer described as "breaking the rules for sex and gender".

In the purest sense Salandra is right. To be queer does mean to be strange or an oddity, and it was used against gays and lesbians as a term of abuse. The definition of queer that you are working with was actually a word reclamation and only began to take on the meaning you ascribe it in the 80's. It is much the same sort of reclamation as the abusive term 'nigger' which many African Americans have taken and turned around to mean something akin to friend/mate ect.

The word genderqueer has been an extension of the reclamation of queer as a non-abusive term. A lot of transgender/transvestite people refused those labels as they were seen as pejorative terms.

I first heard genderqueer in the late 80's / early 90's and originally it almost exclusively did refer to people that identified as gay or lesbian and transgender/transvestite. It has evolved to become something a lot more than that now.

In today's rough street definitions, no you don't need to be queer to be genderqueer, nor the opposite.

I see this as an example of the beauty of the English language, where meanings of words are not set in stone and that as our society evolves, so to does our language.

Cathii

[Stephanie Anne]

When you have a whole sub culture like us defining and redefining ourselves around social definitions of he and she, it gets a bit topsy turvy some times.

We fear there is no real transgender, gay, lesbian, etc, etc ,etc but infact rejection of generations upon generations of type casting and nothing to do with physical distinctions at all.

This is why we are classifgied still as a mental disorder, a social disease and are shunned by so many. We are seen as imposters and people do not like posers for lack of a better word. Oh and that whole messed up religious doctrine thingy.

That's why I hate terms and I dispise people who classify anyone into those terms. I am not a statistic and it bothers me to be placed on the fringes simply becasue I choose to cross the gender line as I see fit.

So to me gender queer is nothing more than a backlash against the real issues. Nature versus nurture and a 2000 year old book.

For me I like the ability to feel like a woman becasue I choose to do so, not becasue my brain was wired wrong at birth or becasue I was never taken hunting by my father, I do so because I like it and it feels complete.

Oh and welcome back to me... perhaps I will start using gender outlaw, I like that better.

[Valeria]

We fear there is no real transgender, gay, lesbian, etc, etc ,etc but infact rejection of generations upon generations of type casting and nothing to do with physical distinctions at all.
I'm not sure who "we" are, but there have been studies showing neurological distinctions between gay men and straight men, and between trans women and gay/straight men. So I'm not so sure that there are no physical distinctions, though I suppose it doesn't really matter.

Also, lesbian behavior (for instance) is known to have occurred 2500 years ago, so these variances aren't exactly just recent phenomena.


That's why I hate terms and I dispise people who classify anyone into those terms. I am not a statistic and it bothers me to be placed on the fringes simply becasue I choose to cross the gender line as I see fit.
Well, no one is calling you queer, much less genderqueer.

I don't view my being queer as placing me on the fringes of anything. On the contrary, part of the point of queer pride is embracing who we are, and declaring that we are part of the normal range of human expression. I'm not personally inclined to go around chanting "We're here! We're queer! Get used to it!", but the point is that the issue is convincing society to adapt to our existence and presence.

I think that pretending we aren't distinct from heteronormative standards just renders us invisible and reinforces those standards, thus marginalizing our existence. I'll admit that while I'm openly lesbian, I'm usually not openly trans - but that's because I view being lesbian (and queer) as part of my identity, whereas I view having been trans as more of a description of my past. I still think that it's important that the transsexual experience be acknowledged and discussed, and that's hard to do without labels.


So to me gender queer is nothing more than a backlash against the real issues. Nature versus nurture and a 2000 year old book.
To the genderqueer people I know, it is a declaration that they reject the gender binary, and that they don't fit neatly into the descriptions "man" and "woman". It has nothing to do with an ancient religious book.

Anyway, a recurring theme I've seen on these forums is the belief that labels are limiting or externally imposed. From my perspective, nothing could be further from the truth.

No one else is calling me queer - I call myself queer. I don't find the label limiting - on the contrary, the meaning of the word queer is that I've thrown off the shackles of a narrow definition of proper behavior. In fact, I find using "labels" (such as saying I identify as a "queer femme") to be empowering. By embracing descriptions such as "queer femme", I am able to own the definition of those terms. I get to define what that means about me and to me, and no one else's interpretation of what being queer means is of any personal significance to me.


The definition of queer that you are working with was actually a word reclamation and only began to take on the meaning you ascribe it in the 80's.
I'm well aware that the word queer has been reclaimed, and that it was once used pejoratively. So were several other labels that I and/or my friends have embraced, such as dyke and gay. The current meaning is all that I place importance on.

Also, when we reclaim labels, we remove their stigma. I used to be sensitive to the word dyke, but no longer. There is even a movement amongst younger women to reclaim a word I'm not sure I'm allowed to post here (a 4-letter synonym for vagina beginning with the letter 'C'). I've seen young women with t-shirts using that word, and while you won't see me in such a t-shirt anytime soon, I applaud their efforts. Given the literal meaning of the word vagina (it means "sheathe" or "scabbard" in latin - very insulting), I think that it's good to embrace other words.

[AmberTG]

"Given the literal meaning of the word vagina (it means "sheathe" or "scabbard" in latin - very insulting), I think that it's good to embrace other words."

Well now, I guess I do still learn something new every day! I certainly didn't know that! And, yes, I can see how that would be insulting, it pretty much describes how men used to think of the value of women, and in some cases, still do.

[Ms. Donna]

For what it's worth... Here's my take on this.

http://wanderingaloud.wordpress.com/being-genderqueer/

Originally Posted: October 2006

I’m 40+ year old male, married and have two daughters. I live in the suburbs, schlep my ass to work every day to provide a good home for my family and I'm as involved as I can be with my family. In many ways – a rather typical ‘dad’.

I’m also genderqueer – at least, that’s how I choose to identify.

There is a saying I absolutely love:

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice – but in practice, there is.

Yes, Genderqueer is rooted in Queer Theory which is itself rooted in Postmodernism – all of which are most at home within the walls of academia: one can almost make a career studying and arguing postmodern theory. And theory is important: understanding the theory allows you to apply it to and better understand real world situations – usually.

But with or without the theory, the real world still happens to us. This is where my quote above comes in. Quite often, the theory doesn’t help in our day to day, practical existence.

It is far too easy to get wrapped up in the theory and the almost impenetrable lexicon which accompanies it. And while debating theory can be an interesting intellectual pastime – it also has the chilling effect of alienating nearly everyone else who wants to get through life. In practice, the theory can almost get in the way.

From an operational perspective, I like the following definition: not a state of being so much as a state of mind – an admission that there truly are no absolutes about gender. It is for this reason that I characterize Genderqueer as operating at a meta level with respect to other gendered identities.

I see gendered identities as an attempt to define a set of operational boundries – a domain of actions and feelings – within which one can call ‘home’. From this perspective, Genderqueer can be thought of as the superset of gendered identities, of which man, woman, trans, etc are but a few.

So far in my life, I have identified as:

Man : (with a kinky side) : identifying as a man allowed me to be ‘normal’ and I accounted for my trans feelings and actions as a kink.
Crossdresser : Upon the discovery that I was far from alone in my feelings and actions, I considered ‘crossdresser’ as an identity.
’Woman’ : As I dealt with my trans feelings, I briefly identified as a woman. My assumption was that if what I was ‘feeling’ was not that of a man, than it must be that of a woman. I did not hold this identity for long.
Intergender : I latched onto this idea big time – enough to create a new Usenet newsgroup for it. I say myself as a mix of man and woman – somewhere between the two. But even this didn’t hold as well as I wanted and I expended it to be a mix of both or neither of the two. I felt (feel) like neither but from an operational perspective, both and neither are about the same.
Genderqueer : An acknowledgment that there are no absolutes about gender. There is no single gendered identity which properly fits me.

My ‘gender’ can and does change – day to day and even during the day. I ‘do’ or ‘am’ what I need to be, when I need to be it. People will gender me as they see fit: some see a man, some see a woman – and other aren’t sure what they see. I can shift their interpretation with something as simple as allowing then to see my purse – suddenly, I move from ‘man’ to ‘woman’. Yes, I fu*k with gender – not as much as some – but I fu*k with it nonetheless. And regardless of how I am ‘gendered’ by others, there is always something ‘queer’ about it. :)

With the exception of online forums, I rarely consider the theoretical side to Genderqueer. I simply use it as a shorthand description for my view of gender and my relation to the world at large. If you consider it from a practical perspective, there is no reason to not consider yourself Genderqueer. Because - IMHO - at the end of the day, we’re all Genderqueer... With some of us just slightly queerer than others. :)

Perhaps the main problem people seem to have with Genderqueer as an 'identity' is that at it's core, Genderqueer really is more a 'theory' or, more properly, a philosophy than an identity. It is more 'a state of mind, not a state of being.' Perhaps, it is more proper to state "I embrace the philosophy of Genderqueer as an interpretation of the world" than it is to make the statement "I am Genderqueer."

In this respect, it is not unlike the use of Transgender: on the one hand it being specific to an individual who identified as the gender 'opposite' that which has been assigned to them - and on the other hand being a broader, more conceptual notion of being gender variant.

In practical usage, Genderqueer has been defined as "someone who identifies as a gender other than 'man' or 'woman,' or someone who identifies as neither, both, or some combination thereof." (from Wikipedia.) From a theoretical standpoint, Genderqueer recognizes the fluid and boundless nature of gender.

As a construct, Genderqueer (no absolutes with regards to gender) encompasses Transgender (variations within a specific domain of operational boundaries). As an identity, Genderqueer (both, neither or other) is distinct from Transgender (opposite of one's assigned gender).

Me personally - I see both the theory and practical definitions as being applicable: I do not identify as any specific gender and I view gender as something with no true absolutes.