Crossdressing why the big fuss?

[TiffanySlave]

It is amazing all the fuss made when a male wears female clothign but not vice versa. My wife once was in an argument with me and called me a fag crossdressor and she was wearing a pair of my sweat pants and a shirt of mine! She was in fact cross dressing! I did not say you lesbian blah blah........... I also told her how strang ethat is and we talked a few. I told her have you heard of george washington? or Ben Franklin? THe foundign fathers of the USA? Back then those men of great power and importance used to wear MAKEUP and WIGS and ran our country. TOday they would be called transvestites and laughed at. I really don't have a specific point but you can see what I am saying. It is hypocrytical of many women to call us CD's when they have worn mens cloths to jsut no one cares if a girl does it. I do what i want anyway. WOmens apparel makers love it as they sell more cloths :) Depnds what side of the fence your on.

[Wendy me]

well when you think abought it there are two sides to me a "him" side and wendy......
we don't let "him" wear any of wendy's things ......so if "him" is wearing "his" things and wendy is wearing hers ............no one is like crossdressing ........right??????????

[StephanieCD]

I've been frustrated with that same fact my whole life. It's a stupid double standard and it's not fair.

[AngelBelow]

People just cannot accept different things in society. they condemn what they do not know -___-.. and of course, sometimes that leads to hypocrisy.

[Tamara Croft]

Your wife may wear your clothes, but is she wearing them because she wants to be a man??? There is a difference between just wearing the clothes and wearing them for a reason. Crossdressers etc wear womens clothes because that's what they want to be or feel like 'a woman'. I wear some of my SO's clothes... doesn't mean I want to or feel anyway like a man.

Tamara x

[Carrah]

Your wife may wear your clothes, but is she wearing them because she wants to be a man??? There is a difference between just wearing the clothes and wearing them for a reason. Crossdressers etc wear womens clothes because that's what they want to be or feel like 'a woman'. I wear some of my SO's clothes... doesn't mean I want to or feel anyway like a man.

Tamara x
Tamara, no offense, girl; I know of no woman who hasn't wished she was a man - none! It's the classic argument, "If I were a man I wouldn't have to put up with this..." "It's a mans world..." etc. Y'all whine and moan about your monthly cycles each and every month. No one is fooling anyone here; we all want to know what it's like for the other side. And, surprise, most crossdressing men do not want to be women.

There is such an imbalance and pure misunderstanding or confusion in society today; the men are told they have the power, yet they simply do not. Women are told they have no power, yet they hold it all.

Women are terribly confused about a lot of things and here is just a few examples; they fought for the right to go braless, now complain and sue when you look at their nipples. They fought for the right to vote, now vote for the cutest politician or the politician who will fight for the rights of women to wear mens clothing. Women fought for the right to smoke openly, now want to sue the tobacco industry for making them ill. Women fight for equality, yet this is physically impossible; when in shape I weighed in at 225 pounds. At that weight (which is typical for an extremely fit male) you are never going to carry my wounded body off a battlefield, period! Men possess, scientifically proven, a greater degree of logic while women possess a greater degree of emotion and I see this everyday!

Since men do, in fact, possess a greater degree of logic, I can tell you that what you said in your post defies all logic. For example, if I build a shed in my backyard and following your logic, I therefore must want to be a carpenter. If I buy tools and repair my car or lawnmower, I therefore must want to be a mechanic. Your comments are certainly welcome and in fact, encouraged. Debate is a strong way of arriving at perspective. Excellent post, by the way. One thing I did note in your post was a strong sense of denial :) You know what? Live life and have fun in the process...

[Topaz]

Hi TiffanySlave,

I see this complaint alot and sometimes have to giggle. (Yes I'm a GG) I wonder if cross dressers have taken a look into history?

Women wearing men's styled clothing came out of necessity pure and simple. Women were left to take care of the farm and the children when men went off to war. Many of them found it necessary to don pants because it is too difficult to do what was needed in a dress, exspecially a long one. Ever try to toss hay bales in a dress?

Also during World War 2 women were expected to be in the factories to produce planes, tanks, bombs etc. It was their patriotic duty. It is dangerous to be wearing loose clothing when machines are running, too easy for your clothing to get caught in the machinery and cause serious injury. So pants became the normal thing to do. Would you really want to weld in a dress?

Also as for women being in the men's area of a clothing store. We have been expected to do the clothing shopping for the entire family, including our husbands (for generations). So, if we are going to buy clothing for our husbands and sons we need to go into the men's department. My husband still sends me to do his shopping for him because his excuse is he doesn't like to shop.

As long as men refuse to do their own shopping and expect their wives to do the shopping for the entire family you'll see women in the men's department. Very rarely do I see a man doing shopping for his entire family. If he's there at all he's there with his wife or SO. And usually whining the entire time. It's still part of the hypocritical standards that men put on women. "You're a women and like to shop, I'm a man and don't like to shop so you get to do all of the shopping."

I personally would love to see more men doing clothing shopping for their girl children and their SO's. That way it would be more acceptable to be in those departments.

So come on ladies do shopping for your entire family and make it a necessity to be in the women's and girls departments. Then it will be socially acceptable for men to be in those areas and easier for you to do some shopping for yourself at the same time.

Necessity caused the acceptance of women being in more masculine clothing. After the historical necessity it simply became accepted fact. The problem is that cross dressers have not been able to prove a true necessity to dress in female clothing. It's just what they like to do.

Now if we can just figure out a way to make cross dressing a necessity so it becomes a historic norm and therefore socially acceptable. Hmm, something to ponder.

Hugs,
Topaz

[Katie Ashe]

To avoid creating a fight, you all have a valid point. The fact is society is double standard any way you look at it, CD'ing or Job realated. It sucks and it's realality. We need somewhere to escape that realality, thats why we come here, isn't it? :confused: There is my 2 cents worth.

Katie

[MonaSmith]

Why is it that we all blame society and exclude ourselves from that term? We all complain about inequality and yet do nothing to balance it out? We sit firmly in our closets waiting for someone else to fix the problems for us like children.

To get involved in argument about 'which sex is better' is, quite frankly, pointless and smacks of 'schoolyard behaviour'. It solves no problems and makes all parties look stupid and petty.

If you want to dress in women's clothes, then you go right ahead and do so. If you want to go out dressed, then you can do that too. We all have the same freedom, we just don't all have the nerve to do it, and until more of us do, nothing is going to change.

Mona xx.

[Topaz]

Tamara, no offense, girl; I know of no woman who hasn't wished she was a man - none! It's the classic argument, "If I were a man I wouldn't have to put up with this..." "It's a mans world..." etc. Y'all whine and moan about your monthly cycles each and every month. No one is fooling anyone here; we all want to know what it's like for the other side. And, surprise, most crossdressing men do not want to be women.

There is such an imbalance and pure misunderstanding or confusion in society today; the men are told they have the power, yet they simply do not. Women are told they have no power, yet they hold it all.

Women are terribly confused about a lot of things and here is just a few examples; they fought for the right to go braless, now complain and sue when you look at their nipples. They fought for the right to vote, now vote for the cutest politician or the politician who will fight for the rights of women to wear mens clothing. Women fought for the right to smoke openly, now want to sue the tobacco industry for making them ill. Women fight for equality, yet this is physically impossible; when in shape I weighed in at 225 pounds. At that weight (which is typical for an extremely fit male) you are never going to carry my wounded body off a battlefield, period! Men possess, scientifically proven, a greater degree of logic while women possess a greater degree of emotion and I see this everyday!

Since men do, in fact, possess a greater degree of logic, I can tell you that what you said in your post defies all logic. For example, if I build a shed in my backyard and following your logic, I therefore must want to be a carpenter. If I buy tools and repair my car or lawnmower, I therefore must want to be a mechanic. Your comments are certainly welcome and in fact, encouraged. Debate is a strong way of arriving at perspective. Excellent post, by the way. One thing I did note in your post was a strong sense of denial :) You know what? Live life and have fun in the process...


So Carrah with your scientifically proven greater degree of logic how come you can't logically bring about acceptance as a whole for cross dressers?

There are many scientists who are women and have a great deal of logic. And just how logical is it for a man who is 5'9" 350 pounds to call a woman who is 5'8" 150 pounds a "fat bitch"? Like this person is the glowing example of fitness? He wouldn't be able to carry you off of the the battle field either.

Women are no more confused than men. No I don't vote for the cutest politician. I also don't vote for a politician based on a single concept. I vote according to the whole politician. (And I know that they are all just playing a game and won't be able to fulfill the promises they made.) You're putting all women as a whole into the very narrow perspective that you have of women.

As for smoking there were a lot of men involved in that law suit. And what about the guy who is suing McDonald's for making him fat?

The concept behind equal rights is if a person is doing the same job they should receive the same pay. It's been a historical fact that women receive less pay for doing the same job. It was also a historic fact for people of color. It was a supposed "scientific" fact that people of color weren't capable of doing the same jobs so didn't deserve the same pay. I know there are jobs that I am not capable of doing and don't do them, but, if I am doing the same job as a man shouldn't I receive the same pay?

As for nipples, it's fine if you look at them, but is it really necessary for a man to hold their entire conversation with my nipples instead of with me. That is a matter of respect. If I hold a converstion with you I look at your face, should I instead be addressing your penis during the entire conversation?

Yes women can be emotional, but I've seen just as many emotional men.

Hugs,
Topaz

[letsdance GG]

Hi TiffanySlave,

I see this complaint alot and sometimes have to giggle. (Yes I'm a GG) I wonder if cross dressers have taken a look into history?

Women wearing men's styled clothing came out of necessity pure and simple. Women were left to take care of the farm and the children when men went off to war. Many of them found it necessary to don pants because it is too difficult to do what was needed in a dress, exspecially a long one. Ever try to toss hay bales in a dress?

Also during World War 2 women were expected to be in the factories to produce planes, tanks, bombs etc. It was their patriotic duty. It is dangerous to be wearing loose clothing when machines are running, too easy for your clothing to get caught in the machinery and cause serious injury. So pants became the normal thing to do. Would you really want to weld in a dress?

Also as for women being in the men's area of a clothing store. We have been expected to do the clothing shopping for the entire family, including our husbands (for generations). So, if we are going to buy clothing for our husbands and sons we need to go into the men's department. My husband still sends me to do his shopping for him because his excuse is he doesn't like to shop.

As long as men refuse to do their own shopping and expect their wives to do the shopping for the entire family you'll see women in the men's department. Very rarely do I see a man doing shopping for his entire family. If he's there at all he's there with his wife or SO. And usually whining the entire time. It's still part of the hypocritical standards that men put on women. "You're a women and like to shop, I'm a man and don't like to shop so you get to do all of the shopping."

I personally would love to see more men doing clothing shopping for their girl children and their SO's. That way it would be more acceptable to be in those departments.

So come on ladies do shopping for your entire family and make it a necessity to be in the women's and girls departments. Then it will be socially acceptable for men to be in those areas and easier for you to do some shopping for yourself at the same time.

Necessity caused the acceptance of women being in more masculine clothing. After the historical necessity it simply became accepted fact. The problem is that cross dressers have not been able to prove a true necessity to dress in female clothing. It's just what they like to do.

Now if we can just figure out a way to make cross dressing a necessity so it becomes a historic norm and therefore socially acceptable. Hmm, something to ponder.

Hugs,
Topaz


Well said Topaz! You go girl!

[Tamara Croft]

Tamara, no offense, girl; I know of no woman who hasn't wished she was a man - none!I have never wished I was a man... why the hell would I want to be one??
And, surprise, most crossdressing men do not want to be women.I didn't say that either, I said most want to or FEEL like being a woman. So why do you crossdress??

One thing I did note in your post was a strong sense of denial :) You know what? Live life and have fun in the process... Denial of what??

Tamara x

[Belledonna]

I could hazard a guess that Tamara meant to ask if your wife wore your clothing to assume a different persona. I, too, wear my husband's clothing on occasion but I don't, and he would agree, do it for the same reasons or with the same motivations as he, when he borrows something of mine. There are undeniably some women who do wear men's clothing as a means of assuming a different, more masculine persona, that is innately and sexually gratifying to them, in some way. So, to the extent that a woman could crossdress, with less fear of reprisal and/or without her motivations being as evident... there is certainly a societal gender bias when it comes to crossdressing. However, it is erroneous to state that all woman who don men's clothing are crossdressers. When I wear men's clothing I do so because it is now customary casual wear for women. I do so maintaining my female persona, that is integral to who I am, with no thoughts of achieving a different persona. My hair is stll coiffed my nails manicured....nobody could ever believe that I was trying to portray another gender, I am simply motivated by the traditions of the times.

To juxtapose that which is customary with that that isn't, without making any
any distinctions, based on motivation is just erroneous. Blanket statements are always flawed...

When my husband dons a dress, he opposes, unfortunately, the traditions of the times. He does so despite his very real fear of reprisal from society, despite the many obstacles it poses to him. He does so because he HAS to, despite all.....because it gives life to an innate and integral part of him/herself. If society started to frown on masculine attire being worn by females, I would undoubtedly stop wearing it because it is not essential to my identity, in any way. My husband will likely never stop wearing feminine attire, no matter the repercussions, as it is essential to a vital part of his identity. Cheri, my husbands feminine self, is an outstanding human being, who has great value, but is relegated to a closet and dark corners, for her fear of reprisals. I sincerely look forward to a day when my beautiful Cheri, and all you beautiful ladies can wear whatever you want, wherever, with no fear!

[Tamara Croft]

I could hazard a guess that Tamara meant to ask if your wife wore your clothing to assume a different persona.That is exactly what I meant :D

Tamara x

[ChristineRenee]

Your wife may wear your clothes, but is she wearing them because she wants to be a man??? There is a difference between just wearing the clothes and wearing them for a reason. Crossdressers etc wear womens clothes because that's what they want to be or feel like 'a woman'. I wear some of my SO's clothes... doesn't mean I want to or feel anyway like a man.

Tamara xPoint of fact Tamara is that you CAN wear men's clothing without harrassment irrespective of whether or not you WANT to be a man. Men do not have the same freedom in that regard. Oh sure...we can do it...but there will be consequences that occur as a result of it.

I still say the clothes are the secondary issue in this debate here...the role of females in a male run and dominated society and the fact that they are not held in as high a regard with respect to their own individual self-worth, is the core issue of this dispute.

Is it right? No. Is it fair? Again...no. Is it the way it is and has been for centuries? Yes! I'm not saying it should be like this...obviously it shouldn't. But the question remains then...how do we go about changing societal attitudes to reflect the kind of changes that we seek?

Love,
Chrissie:)

[Melissa A.]

I knew what you meant, Tamara, and I have been meaning to write a post saying the same thing. Belladonna, however, said much of it very effectively.

Let me put it this way: I have a male personna, whom I love. I am just a regular guy. When I am not Melissa, I have no desire to go out in public wearing a skirt or makeup. I know some do. and that is fine, and unfair that they can't, without negative reaction.

When I am crossdressing, I feel like I AM a woman. I know it is temporary, but it is a very real part of me that I need to experience. I walk, move, and behave like a female and want to be percieved as and treated like one.

It is unfortunate that as men, we must present ourselves a certain way or suffer reprisals. And women do have more freedom to wear what they want. But even in male clothes, most women still want to be percieved as women, as Belladonna said. But it is not a simple tit for tat issue. I would say very few men want to wear a skirt or dress and say to everyone, "I am a man, not a cd. I just like wearing this stuff". Motivation is a big part of it.We decry a situation where men cannot dress with complete freedom and yet buy right into it by dressing in feminine, girly stuff because it makes us feel like a girl.

I, for one, have no problem with it, or me.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Melissa A.]

I'm sorry I spelled your name wrong, Belledonna!

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Brandy_Marie]

It is amazing all the fuss made when a male wears female clothign but not vice versa. My wife once was in an argument with me and called me a fag crossdressor and she was wearing a pair of my sweat pants and a shirt of mine! She was in fact cross dressing! I did not say you lesbian blah blah...........


It is hypocrytical of many women to call us CD's when they have worn mens cloths to jsut no one cares if a girl does it. I do what i want anyway. WOmens apparel makers love it as they sell more cloths :) Depnds what side of the fence your on.

Some interesting points you bring up here. I've seen several similar comments made in various threads. There is one thing I haven't seen (maybe I just missed it) though. How do our Female-to-Male counterparts feel about this? I haven't heard anything from them, and I'm certain they have feelings about statements like this being made. I'm taking a shot in the dark, if I was them, comments like this would not make me feel welcome. It sure hasn't seemed to sit well with the GGs.

TiffanySlave, I feel for you and your situation. It pains me to see the hurt that your wife's words must have caused you. I don't know how many here I speak for when I say this, but we are always here for you girl.

Hugs freely given whenever needed,

Brandy Marie Devereaux

[sidney_girl]

Women wearing men's styled clothing came out of necessity pure and simple. Women were left to take care of the farm and the children when men went off to war. Many of them found it necessary to don pants because it is too difficult to do what was needed in a dress, exspecially a long one. Ever try to toss hay bales in a dress?

Also during World War 2 women were expected to be in the factories to produce planes, tanks, bombs etc. It was their patriotic duty. It is dangerous to be wearing loose clothing when machines are running, too easy for your clothing to get caught in the machinery and cause serious injury. So pants became the normal thing to do. Would you really want to weld in a dress?

Necessity caused the acceptance of women being in more masculine clothing. After the historical necessity it simply became accepted fact. The problem is that cross dressers have not been able to prove a true necessity to dress in female clothing. It's just what they like to do.

I don't know any women who work on a farm. Nor do I know any who work in bomb factories. I do, however, know many who wear pants, although it isn't "necessary" for them to do so.

And as for all this talk about "necessity," since it was "necessary" for pre-WWII women in, say, an office environment, to wear skirts and dresses, why isn't it "necessary" for men working in an office to wear them today? Answer: Because the issue here isn't "necessity," but freedom.



Your wife may wear your clothes, but is she wearing them because she wants to be a man??? There is a difference between just wearing the clothes and wearing them for a reason. Crossdressers etc wear womens clothes because that's what they want to be or feel like 'a woman'. I wear some of my SO's clothes... doesn't mean I want to or feel anyway like a man.
So it's really all about motive? What we think inside? I find that scary. I mean, I don't want to live in a society that tells me what to wear. Even less do I want to live in a world that tells me how to think.

You can't defend the indefensible. And a double standard is indefensible!

[Tamara Croft]

I mean, I don't want to live in a society that tells me what to wear.You already do. If you didn't there wouldn't be a need for this site or for so many crossdressers to be in the closet.

It is acceptable for a woman to wear mens clothes, that in itself is sexist, which shouldn't be tolerated. But until you come out your closets and start making a stand for the right to wear what you want, then I'm afraid society will continue to tell you what you can and can't wear. I would love nothing more than to go out and walk down the street with my SO wearing what the hell she wants. I have recently told my eldest daughter that her dad is a crossdresser. Now she is only 16, but she took it really well and isn't bothered by it. So I'm doing my bit for you all to start wearing what you like so others aren't fazed by it, what are you doing? Complaining about it, is going to get you nowhere, making a stand is a start!

Tamara x

P.S. I'm on your side you know!!

[Amelie]

You already do. If you didn't there wouldn't be a need for this site or for so many crossdressers to be in the closet.

It is acceptable for a woman to wear mens clothes, that in itself is sexist, which shouldn't be tolerated. But until you come out your closets and start making a stand for the right to wear what you want, then I'm afraid society will continue to tell you what you can and can't wear. I would love nothing more than to go out and walk down the street with my SO wearing what the hell she wants. I have recently told my eldest daughter that her dad is a crossdresser. Now she is only 16, but she took it really well and isn't bothered by it. So I'm doing my bit for you all to start wearing what you like so others aren't fazed by it, what are you doing? Complaining about it, is going to get you nowhere, making a stand is a start!

Tamara x

P.S. I'm on your side you know!!

This is exactly right. If men want to go out dressed as women, then do so. The reason women can wear clothes that are similar to men's is because they are out there doing it. It might have been rough for the first women who decided to wear pants. They must have had people laughing at them, but they still did it. And the first women who did this, opened the door for other women to follow until it became normal to see women in men's clothes. Don't forget women started dressing like this in public years ago, so newer generations have gotten used to it.
I have been going out dressed since the late seventies, not as much now, because of personal reasons. But I have never let people tell me what I can or can't dress like, it is none of their business. Yes, people say things, so what, let them. It didn't stop me from going out and having fun.
It's only when I came to this site and other CD sites that I never heard so much belly-aching about society. I mean all I hear is CDs crying how they are not accepted(Boo-Hoo). Come on, most here are grown men, with many serving in their armed forces, it doesn't take that much courage to go out dressed as women.
I am on goth sites, I hang out with goths. They dress more outlandish than any CD, yet they still go out. They don't let society tell them how they should dress. They get hasseled like the CDs would but they still go on, they go out, they have fun.
I do understand that there are problems when confronting the family about being a CD, this can be rough. But what others think should not matter, CDs should dress as they please and have fun.
And don't expect women, gays or any other group to encourage you along. It is up to the CD community and individual Cds to make their own life a pleasant one. If Cds want society to accept them then it is up to CDs to do something about it and quit complaining.

[Sweet Susan]

Your wife may wear your clothes, but is she wearing them because she wants to be a man??? There is a difference between just wearing the clothes and wearing them for a reason. Crossdressers etc wear womens clothes because that's what they want to be or feel like 'a woman'. I wear some of my SO's clothes... doesn't mean I want to or feel anyway like a man.

Tamara x


If I were English, I'd say, "such rubbish!" Crossdressers don't want to be women. Almost all of us love being men, we just like to wear your clothes, for whatever reason. I'd never become a woman. Even if the magic pill were developed, I'd still remain a man. All I want is the societal freedom to wear whatever I want to wear wherever I want to wear it. Women have too high of an opinion of themselves. While it is true that women are more pretty than men, more sexually appealing, they are also many other things, many of which will keep me forever male. There's nothing better than being a man.

[Deelite]

Quote: "It is acceptable for a woman to wear mens clothes"

This just re-enforces to me that men's clothes are just soooo Booooring!
If women can wear and get away with wearing mens clothes, it just shows that mens clothes are just plain "normal" and "nothing special!!"

It just re-enforces to me that women's clothes are sooooo much more exciting, yipppeee!

Dee.

[ChristineRenee]

Easy for you to say Amelie...you are single. You know...I used to be single and young too and did what I damn well pleased and to hell with anybody that didn't like it. Getting married changes that dynamic. Throw kids in the mix and the responsibility bar gets raised even higher. Sure I and my fellow CD'ers could just go on out there no matter what...but what about how this affects the family? Especially when you have your spouse or SO who's reputation in the community can be adversly affected by the discovery of her husband wearing women's clothes.

As I said earlier...is it right?...NO. Is it fair?....NO. Is it the way it is however....YES!!

If and when you ever get married and also maybe have kids and society hasn't changed it's attitude by then...get back to me on how well accepted you are and how it may also affect those closest to you.

Love,
Chrissie:)

[MonaSmith]

If I were English, I'd say, "such rubbish!" Crossdressers don't want to be women. Almost all of us love being men, we just like to wear your clothes, for whatever reason.

I think that there might be quite a few TS girls that might disagree with this blanket statement. I personally hate being male and would take the magic pill without a moments hesitation

Mona xx.

[Rachel_740]

It is amazing all the fuss made when a male wears female clothign but not vice versa. My wife once was in an argument with me and called me a fag crossdressor and she was wearing a pair of my sweat pants and a shirt of mine! She was in fact cross dressing! I did not say you lesbian blah blah........... I also told her how strang ethat is and we talked a few. I told her have you heard of george washington? or Ben Franklin? THe foundign fathers of the USA? Back then those men of great power and importance used to wear MAKEUP and WIGS and ran our country. TOday they would be called transvestites and laughed at. I really don't have a specific point but you can see what I am saying. It is hypocrytical of many women to call us CD's when they have worn mens cloths to jsut no one cares if a girl does it. I do what i want anyway. WOmens apparel makers love it as they sell more cloths :) Depnds what side of the fence your on.

Hi Tiffany,

I think it's one of those things that is going to be an eternal issue, and not resloved for for a few more years when views are more relax (if thats not too much of a condradiction - eternal for a few years).

Anne

[MonaSmith]

If and when you ever get married and also maybe have kids and society hasn't changed it's attitude by then...get back to me on how well accepted you are and how it may also affect those closest to you.

Love,
Chrissie:)Surely getting married and having kids is something that a person chooses to do? Not something that can be blamed on society?

Until we all start taking responsibility for our own actions, nothing will ever change.

Mona xx

[Paula A]

Why is it that we all blame society and exclude ourselves from that term? We all complain about inequality and yet do nothing to balance it out? We sit firmly in our closets waiting for someone else to fix the problems for us like children.

To get involved in argument about 'which sex is better' is, quite frankly, pointless and smacks of 'schoolyard behaviour'. It solves no problems and makes all parties look stupid and petty.

If you want to dress in women's clothes, then you go right ahead and do so. If you want to go out dressed, then you can do that too. We all have the same freedom, we just don't all have the nerve to do it, and until more of us do, nothing is going to change.

Mona xx.

Mona you are so right!

Crossdressers are chicken, they are scared to death about being completely OUT. We have our normal "MAN" straight life and then we have a part of us we want to keep hidden away to protect ourselves and the ones we love from embaressment, shame and physical harm.

I for one am a crossdressing chicken. I have worked hard to get where I am in my community to risk it all. I knew what I was my whole life, but I realised it (accepted myself as I was built) way too late. If I was a teenager and "owned up" to my CDing earlier, I would have less issue with being completly OUT and would care less and less what others thought. ( I would have discussed this with my wife before 16 years of marriage as well, that's for sure)

Mona, it will take those youngsters with nothing to loose and the courage to back it up in order to make changes in society. I hope they hurry up!

As far as women being able to wear what they want and when they want, I have this to say, They've earned it, it has taken years and years, from the right to work, to vote, to smoke, to wear pants (thanks to WWII) and so on. And untill MEN earn the right to wear what they want, when they want, crossdressers will forever be in the closet. Not to offend anyone but we Crossdressers in general do not have the Balls. We have two seporate lives and are happy being miserible in that way because who can risk (or want to) the public scrunity.

Back to the original question, why is it a big deal. Because society in general is scared of difference, of things that are not the norm. (whatever the norm at the time is)To answer the question, untill a man in a skirt and wearing makeup is viewed as an everyday normal occurance and seen in public crossdressing will be a big deal.

Melissa; I know how you feel, when en-femme, I walk, move perceve me to be a woman, or more rather a feminine male, who likes to have long hair, wear fashion skirts, high heel shoes, long colored nails and jewlery of all sorts. When in everyday male mode I still like that stuff but I hide it, because that is how I was raised. When En-femme I feel refreshed, when en-man I feel repressed.

Great thread, great debate.

[Wendy me]

in or out ,single or marryed, kids or not....the question is the same if you could.....???
in some ways we are all the same and so differnt at the same time . passing , aceptence.. or what not what we chose to do for what ever reason/s. is as diffrent as are our place we are in in this time... could it change if......???? well i went from like totaly trying to hide this to wow this is who i am ...ok .

the "him" side of me yes i hold a certen dis like for "him". changeing and being a woman?? i thought abought that often and thought it was what i wanted ....but for right now i am mostly happy being this little slightly messed up person .....just being me... as for the clouthing ??? well yes woman do wear and get away with it a lot more than it is the outher way aroung ....my hair is longer in a ponney tail... red or pink band.... girly pinky rings ... a little make up every day ... looks ???? stares ????
well yar ......i am just who i am happy .... who or what i will be???? i will find out latter.... just being me..........

[Julie York]

Wow ! Am I on the right forum?

I actually like women. And whatever I am and whatever I want to whine and moan about...It certainly isn't women who are stopping me going out dressed up if I dared to.

Sheesh! Who's going to be the people beating the crap out of you in a car park? Male or female?

Get a grip people.

It's really amazed me that there is (amongst maybe only 2 or 3 people) a genuine mysogeny born of frustration at your own predicament. Don't blame women. It's got bugger all to do with WOMEN. If you are jealous of them because they can do something you can't and dress how they please...then express it as such and be honest with yourself instead of all this 'society hates me' nonsense.

Society doesn't hate you. Bring me one. Show me one. "Society" is a myth, an easy term to point at.

It's the big hairy ignorant git at the end of the bar that hates you.



(Thank you. I feel better now. Time for a lie down to brace myself for the incoming venom.)

[Merinda]

You already do. If you didn't there wouldn't be a need for this site or for so many crossdressers to be in the closet.

It is acceptable for a woman to wear mens clothes, that in itself is sexist, which shouldn't be tolerated. But until you come out your closets and start making a stand for the right to wear what you want, then I'm afraid society will continue to tell you what you can and can't wear. I would love nothing more than to go out and walk down the street with my SO wearing what the hell she wants. I have recently told my eldest daughter that her dad is a crossdresser. Now she is only 16, but she took it really well and isn't bothered by it. So I'm doing my bit for you all to start wearing what you like so others aren't fazed by it, what are you doing? Complaining about it, is going to get you nowhere, making a stand is a start!

Tamara x

P.S. I'm on your side you know!!


I Totally agree Tamara ,

To Hell what society thinks , "JUST DO IT" !
I've walked through streets and shopping centres , its my life and I will not be told by society what I cant wear!

[Sweet Susan]

I think that there might be quite a few TS girls that might disagree with this blanket statement. I personally hate being male and would take the magic pill without a moments hesitation

Mona xx.

Mona,
I'm sure you are quite right in the literal sense of your statement. However, remaining close to the definition of a crossdresser (as it pertains to men who wear women's clothes, as opposed to transvestites) we, that is crossdressers, are not necessarily transexuals (TS girls), as I understand the defiinition for TS girls. While I might be a transvestite, and while I am certainly a crossdresser, I am definitely not a transexual, and I don't want to become a woman. That may be true of you, and if it is you are certainly more than a crossdresser. If nothing else, you are gorgeous!

I realize that many on this forum, whether they be ggs or cds or ts or tv or those in transition or finished tranisitioning or whatever, are divided about adhering to distinct definitions. While that is fine with those who care to stray, it isn't fine with me. Words mean things and represent things, so I believe it is only fair to use correct, if not exact, definitions for those of us who fall into the umbrella of 'transgendered.'

Let the debate roll on.

[sidney_girl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidney_girl
I mean, I don't want to live in a society that tells me what to wear.
You already doYou already do. If you didn't there wouldn't be a need for this site or for so many crossdressers to be in the closet.
Perhaps I should have written, "As much as I hate living in a society that tells me what to wear, even more so do I hate living in a world that tells me how to think."



what are you doing? Complaining about it, is going to get you nowhere, making a stand is a start!
What am I doing about it? Dressing--to one degree or another--every day of my life: at home, at work, while running errands.

No, I don't wear a skirt to work, but I am "pushing the envelope" even there. But were I to go "too far" (as defined by my employer), I'd be out of a job. So, shouldn't I have the courage to face the consequences? Well, not if there is another person dependent upon my income. Besides, food is a more basic human need than clothing.


As far as women being able to wear what they want and when they want, I have this to say, They've earned it, it has taken years and years, from the right to work, to vote, to smoke, to wear pants (thanks to WWII)
Sure, I know that women risked their jobs in order to secure their right to wear pants, but we must look at the historical context. In the immediate post-WWII years, when women left the factories and returned to the office, marriage was the norm, with the male being the breadwinner. (Sorry if that offends, but it's historical reality.) So they could afford the luxury of standing up for their rights.



Society doesn't hate you. Bring me one. Show me one. "Society" is a myth, an easy term to point at.

It's the big hairy ignorant git at the end of the bar that hates you.
We also need to beware of employers, SOs, and others who truly DO have power over us. No, they won't beat us to a pulp, but they can make our lives a living hell. Bullying comes in many forms. For example:

"Sorry, but we're going to have to terminate your employment," said the human resources manager.

"It's okay for me to wear your clothes, but not for you to wear mine, because your motive is different," said the wife.

"I'm holding you in contempt of court," said the judge.

So, in a way, I agree that "society" isn't the problem. The problem is the multitude of individuals who truly can't (or won't) think for themselves.

[MonaSmith]

Mona,
I'm sure you are quite right in the literal sense of your statement. However, remaining close to the definition of a crossdresser (as it pertains to men who wear women's clothes, as opposed to transvestites) we, that is crossdressers, are not necessarily transexuals (TS girls), as I understand the defiinition for TS girls. While I might be a transvestite, and while I am certainly a crossdresser, I am definitely not a transexual, and I don't want to become a woman. That may be true of you, and if it is you are certainly more than a crossdresser. If nothing else, you are gorgeous!

I realize that many on this forum, whether they be ggs or cds or ts or tv or those in transition or finished tranisitioning or whatever, are divided about adhering to distinct definitions. While that is fine with those who care to stray, it isn't fine with me. Words mean things and represent things, so I believe it is only fair to use correct, if not exact, definitions for those of us who fall into the umbrella of 'transgendered.'

Let the debate roll on.So, what are you saying? I'm NOT a crossdresser? I don't understand the very slim definition that you are putting on the term. We are all crossdressers, we all dress in the clothes of the opposite genetic form, our reasons might be very varied and our end goals may be different, but we all crossdress. I'm not trying to provoke and argument, I'm just not sure of how, or why, you are trying to define it so.

Mona xx.

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

:D i like to go shoping,,used to go shoping with my mom when i was a kid and even as i got older,, while it is true a woman wearing mens clothe sisnt actualy crossdressed and they had to dress for the job,,, women have not gone back to wanting to be FEMININE which i think might be the issue here,, :D my 4 cents :p

[Tamara Croft]

If I were English, I'd say, "such rubbish!" Crossdressers don't want to be women. I actually said want to be or FEEL like a woman... My partner is a crossdresser. He doesn't want hormones or a sex change etc... but when he's crossdressed he feels like a 'she'. Just because you don't, doesn't mean other crossdressers don't either. As for your 'such rubbish' statement, well an English person wouldn't be so rude, but as you're not, I won't blame your for it :p

Tamara x

[Tamara Croft]

No, I don't wear a skirt to work, but I am "pushing the envelope" even there. But were I to go "too far" (as defined by my employer), I'd be out of a job. So, shouldn't I have the courage to face the consequences? Well, not if there is another person dependent upon my income. Besides, food is a more basic human need than clothing.I totally agree with that, but again that's sexism in the work place, it shouldn't be allowed. I do hope in time this all changes and everyone is free to wear what they want without consequences.

Tamara x

[SissyPanties]

I am a genetic male that likes feeling feminine and in fact get sexually aroused by wearing women's clothes, especially lingerie and as you might guess by my names sake, sissy panties. I don't want to become a woman either. So I guess I agree with Tamara's point of view. I don't agree with everything Carrah said but Carrah does have a valid point of view about a "Man's World". I sometimes think women don't understand how good they have it. I am actually envious of women. Women express their emotions so easily but I can't. I can't even cry anymore. I think men end up dealing with more stress than women. Much of the stress comes from society. For my part, I am willing to be submissive to women and make it a "Woman's World" as long as I can have emotions and express them. My 2 cents worth. Am I a bad little sissy for siding with the genetic girls here?

[Melissa A.]

Wow. Lots of really strong opinions here. Really great discussion, made me think. Maybe motivation isnt as important as I first thought, although I still think it is a factor. I still think a male dressing fully as a woman with makeup, a wig, nail polish, etc. is not on the same par as a woman throwing on a pair of guys pants and a polo shirt. That is about comfort, and while cding makes me feel comfortable, it's not the same.

But the double standard certainly does exist.

Julie, you make a point that also made me think. The word "society" is tossed around maybe a little too frequently. Individuals are certainly influenced by societal norms, and most people are afraid of things or ideas that are different, But everyone has the free will to decide if they are going to be a tolerant empathetic person or an ignorant jackass.
That goes for women and men. Small minded people come in both genders.

As far as us being afraid to be who we are for the world, then complaining about how people feel about us, I don't think any of us can be blamed for that. We all come from different backgrounds and different histories, and all carry scars, to some degree. Some of us are further along than others. Some are content to stay in the closet, out of a percieved necessity or some other reason. I go out, in the right situations. But I don't yet have the courage to go shopping at the mall as Melissa. I think it sucks that I can't, courage or not. But I don't think I should be blamed for being afraid to do it. The possible reprisals are very real, but admittedly probably overblown in my head. Even crossdressers themselves are affected by popular opinion, even if they detest it. But I do think things are getting better. Change comes slowly, however. A generation ago, we all thought we were so alone; now we know that isn't true. Parts of the population now see us as harmless, others won't let us talk to their kids. As time goes on things will get better.

I'm sorry, starting to babble. Just some random thoughts, I guess, for what they are worth. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I think it's a good one.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Amelie]

Mellisa, a good point you made. A cd dressing fully like a women is not the same as a woman wearing pants and a polo shirt. This is true, but it is probably not correct to say a double standard exits, even in this statement you made, A cd can not be compred to this type of GG.
Now to prove that a double standard does not exist(my theory). If a gg was to dress fully as a man, similar to what a CD might dress like but in reverse. Let's say the GG was to put on false beard and sideburns, and stuffed her pants with something to create a bulge in the crotch. Now, if this GG still looked like a GG(she doesn't pass as a man), she would probably get the same laughes and insults that a CD might get. She would have the same troubles at work, with the family, as the male CD would. I don't know if she would get the same violent behavior that the thugs deal to male CDs, but thugs already attack women so I think these CD GGs would be attacked as well.
The only thing in favor of women is they can wear men's pants more easily than a man can wear a skirt in public, not just CDs but a just a man in a skirt.
I think the barriers will be broken, not by the CD community, but by straight or gay men who find wearing a skirt is fashionable. When some hollywood types or musicians start wearing skirts for fashion reasons, then it might trickle down to the CDs, making it easier for CDs to dress up.

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Crossdressing why the big fuss?

Made me think of ...

POLAR BEARS .................................................. ..
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................

.... why the big PAUSE?

Hoot giggles foflol wmkim ( wetting my knickers in mirth) .. sowee to any serious sisters, honest i'll wear no make-up and baggy pants for a month ... but it gave me a giggle!

[Sharon]

Mellisa, a good point you made. A cd dressing fully like a women is not the same as a woman wearing pants and a polo shirt. This is true, but it is probably not correct to say a double standard exits, even in this statement you made, A cd can not be compred to this type of GG.
Now to prove that a double standard does not exist(my theory). If a gg was to dress fully as a man, similar to what a CD might dress like but in reverse. Let's say the GG was to put on false beard and sideburns, and stuffed her pants with something to create a bulge in the crotch. Now, if this GG still looked like a GG(she doesn't pass as a man), she would probably get the same laughes and insults that a CD might get. She would have the same troubles at work, with the family, as the male CD would. I don't know if she would get the same violent behavior that the thugs deal to male CDs, but thugs already attack women so I think these CD GGs would be attacked as well.
The only thing in favor of women is they can wear men's pants more easily than a man can wear a skirt in public, not just CDs but a just a man in a skirt.
I think the barriers will be broken, not by the CD community, but by straight or gay men who find wearing a skirt is fashionable. When some hollywood types or musicians start wearing skirts for fashion reasons, then it might trickle down to the CDs, making it easier for CDs to dress up.

Just the response I was ready to make Amelie.
Women wearing pants are not crossdressers, they are simply wearing the current style of fashion. I have seen numerous posts complaining about women's freedom to wear what they want, while we crossdressers do not. This is such BS. When women attempt to pass themselves as male, then they are the equivelent of what we are. What about crossdresser's who wear women's slacks? Are they then not still crossdressers?
People need to quit fighting when we're all on the same side here. We're arguing semantics and nonsense, and trying to re-interpret what other members are saying in their posts. How do we even begin to assauge society's perceptions of us when we argue so illogically amongst ourselves?
I am a crossdresser. I am transgendered. I am a man who would be a woman if it was possible. I accept that not everybody is the exact carbon-copy of who I am. And all I can say to that is Thank God!

[Brandy_Marie]

Sharon,

A big AMEN! to that from me. You said it better than I ever could. Thank you.

Brandy Marie Devereaux

[Melissa A.]

The reason I said a double standard does exist is because if a man wants to wear a skirt or a dress simply because he wants to(not because he wants to crossdress), he can't-at least not without alot of staring and laughing. It's not something I want to do, but some may. Otherwise, I agree completely with you both, Amelie and Sharon.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Helana]

Gosh!! A gender fight in a crossdressing forum. How ironic! :D

I will say my two cents. Women wearing masculine clothing has got nothing to do with practicality and everything to do with freedom of expression. The issue which nobody has yet talked about is why women today, with complete freedom to choose any look, choose to spend 90% of their time in masculine clothing. In theory there should be a 50/50 split.

In my opinion, while women are not crossdressing or trying to express a male persona, they are making use of certain value judgements which go along with the clothes. Clothes can be viewed as conservative, classy, outlandish, sexy etc as well as being masculine/feminine. For me the reason why women choose to wear pants most of the time is because they want to inherit the masculine values so as to de-emphasize their femininity. By wearing pants, they get taken more seriously, are not oggled at by men as sex objects, are not fashion judged by other women. Women just have an easier time if they tone down their femininity and become androgenous. They dont have to take as much time over their appearance and are listened to instead of being stared at.

There are still unfair gender differences which benefit men. Men can be slobs, but women cannot. Solution: - wear men's clothes and become a slob too! :) However when women want to use their femininity to have fun such as going out on the town then the LBDs and cropped tops and heels come out to play. Then women want to be stared at!

So women are taking advantage of the masculine attributes attached to pants and shirts etc but this is not strictly crossdressing. There is no pretence or delusion that they are men. Only "gender bending" men are doing something equivalent by wearing skirts but without wearing breast forms and wigs etc.

[Rachel_740]

Point of fact Tamara is that you CAN wear men's clothing without harrassment irrespective of whether or not you WANT to be a man. Men do not have the same freedom in that regard. Oh sure...we can do it...but there will be consequences that occur as a result of it.


Crissie,

I frequently wore only female clothing - jeans and t shirt - before I transitioned and nobody ever said a word. I was chatting with my colleague one day at work after I announced my transition and told him that I was wearing only female clothing at that time, and then, when he actually looked at what I was wearing he could see.

There is a reason other than crossdressing that some GG's wear their mans clothes, which, in the UK is fairly common (as far as I understand). That is that sometimes they want to feel close to their man when the two of them are apart.

Anne

[Carrah]

Lot's of interesting comments here :) Like we didn't know that would be the case :)

Some of what I found interesting were these;

Topaz wrote, "Women wearing men's styled clothing came out of necessity pure and simple." Well, necessity or a "desire" to mimick men for the purpose of performing to the levels of men as much as possible? I think what you are actually saying here is that women had to try to be as much like men as possible in order to function adequately in those environments and under those conditions. So, it would appear that at that time a woman had a desire to be as much of a man as possible? Yes? Keep in mind that women working at that time was not governmentally mandated. Therefore, logically, it had to come from desire and not from necessity.

Monasmith writes; "We all complain about inequality and yet do nothing to balance it out?" Point of fact is that we DO try to balance it out everyday in this way; we try hard to rise to the level of others and for those who cannot rise to the level of another, they seek to reduce that individual to their level - happens everyday. All of mankind seek equality.

Belledonna writes; "However, it is erroneous to state that all woman who don men's clothing are crossdressers." Actually, this is the essence of crossdressing; wearing the clothing of the opposite sex. In fact, if you are wearing the clothing of the opposite sex for any reason, you are crossdressed. Merriam-Webster writes:
Main Entry: cross-dress·ing
Pronunciation: 'kros-"dre-si[ng]
Function: noun
: the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex

Tamara-GG ask's the question; "Denial of what??" The answer is simple; "I have never wished I was a man... why the hell would I want to be one??" This simple statement, if true, would make you either a very unique or very young individual. There is no human being alive today that hasn't or won't at some point, wish they were of the opposite sex at least for a day - it's simple human nature and cannot be denied. We may be at the top of the food chain, but we are still very much behaviorally predictable.

I've always said that perspective is a wonderful thing. Coming to terms with "what is" is often much more difficult than coming to terms with what one perceives. I have always felt that reality is what it is for all of us regardless of how we view any particular subject or matter. We may look at an object 1 mile down the road and some will say it is a half mile, while some may say it is a mile and a half. However, it is and will always be exactly 1 mile...

[Tamara Croft]

Tamara-GG ask's the question; "Denial of what??" The answer is simple; "I have never wished I was a man... why the hell would I want to be one??" This simple statement, if true, would make you either a very unique or very young individual. There is no human being alive today that hasn't or won't at some point, wish they were of the opposite sex at least for a day - it's simple human nature and cannot be denied. We may be at the top of the food chain, but we are still very much behaviorally predictable.
I don't know about being young... I'm 34, so I must be unique :p

Tamara x

[Carrah]

I thought this post warranted its own response.


So Carrah with your scientifically proven greater degree of logic how come you can't logically bring about acceptance as a whole for cross dressers?
Logically I could...


There are many scientists who are women and have a great deal of logic. And just how logical is it for a man who is 5'9" 350 pounds to call a woman who is 5'8" 150 pounds a "fat bitch"? Like this person is the glowing example of fitness? He wouldn't be able to carry you off of the the battle field either.
It would be quite illogical to assume 100 percent of women or 100 percent of men comply with emotion vs. logic respectively.


Women are no more confused than men. No I don't vote for the cutest politician. I also don't vote for a politician based on a single concept. I vote according to the whole politician. (And I know that they are all just playing a game and won't be able to fulfill the promises they made.) You're putting all women as a whole into the very narrow perspective that you have of women.
Again, this is a big negative and reflects only your pereception of what I said. In the same way you are charged a higher (or lower) rate for auto insurance based upon where you live, you (and I) also fit into many a statistical realm. Statistics (when not purposefully distorted) represent what is and you and I have little to say about it.


As for smoking there were a lot of men involved in that law suit. And what about the guy who is suing McDonald's for making him fat?
This is the typical female argument; introducing non-relevant matter. I am not familiar with statistics relevant to what gender is suing McDonalds. I am only familiar with statistical information with respect to the majority behind the tobacco lawsuits.


The concept behind equal rights is if a person is doing the same job they should receive the same pay. It's been a historical fact that women receive less pay for doing the same job. It was also a historic fact for people of color. It was a supposed "scientific" fact that people of color weren't capable of doing the same jobs so didn't deserve the same pay. I know there are jobs that I am not capable of doing and don't do them, but, if I am doing the same job as a man shouldn't I receive the same pay?
I do not recall discussing or mentioning "equal rights," but rather touching breifly upon "equality." I agree that performance of the same "exact" job with no additional benifits to one or the other should result in equal pay. No, what I refered to was the physical impossibilities between the genders with respect to lifting, moving, etc. Most women, even in a simple retail environment, must call upon their male counterparts to lift or move certain objects. This being the case, and since you brought this up, should these women be provided equal pay?


As for nipples, it's fine if you look at them, but is it really necessary for a man to hold their entire conversation with my nipples instead of with me. That is a matter of respect. If I hold a converstion with you I look at your face, should I instead be addressing your penis during the entire conversation?
Frankly, I wish more women would pay more attention to "Little Carrah." There are few women out there who haven't been asked to expose their breasts at one point in time or another. No one has ever asked me in 46 years to see little Carrah - know what I mean. Frankly, I think that's a little rude, don't you? Look, the only way a man is going to stare at your breasts is if this is your intent. Put on a minimizer bra and a loose sweater and no one will likely be staring at your breasts. However, put on a sexy bra and tight shirt and the effect is proportional, logical, and is as consistant with human behavior as the desire to crossdress.


Yes women can be emotional, but I've seen just as many emotional men.

Hugs,
Topaz
This most certainly is not true. There is no way you will ever convince me or anyone else here that you have seen "just as many" emotional men in your life as women. I'm certain we all know better than to buy into this one...

[Sharon]

Topaz wrote, "Women wearing men's styled clothing came out of necessity pure and simple." Well, necessity or a "desire" to mimick men for the purpose of performing to the levels of men as much as possible? I think what you are actually saying here is that women had to try to be as much like men as possible in order to function adequately in those environments and under those conditions. So, it would appear that at that time a woman had a desire to be as much of a man as possible? Yes? Keep in mind that women working at that time was not governmentally mandated. Therefore, logically, it had to come from desire and not from necessity.

Carrah,
I seriously doubt that most women who wear pants consider themselves crossdressers or are attempting to mimic men. Did you ever consider that sometimes women simply find pants more practical, comfortable, or modest than a dress?
We are crossdressers here, so we often attempt to emulate the most feminine of fashions. Women have no need to do so, they (for the most part) are already feminine and have nothing to prove to themselves or others. Look how many crossdressers wear garters to the percentage of women who do? Personally, I find the right slacks or jeans to be extremely sexy when combined with a nice top and pretty face. If you appreciate the female body, then nothing shows it off like a form fitting pair of slacks.
If you're thinking of baggy jeans, then I must admit that I don't like them on anyone , male or female, but this is just an unfortunate state of today's fashions, nothing more.

[Tristen Cox]

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible. This is a place for discussion NOT a place for people to FORCE their views upon others and argue about it. Just because you believe something, others do not have to. It is not a requirement. State your OPINIONS and leave it at that unless you have something to discuss otherwise. Opinions are not proof, hence the have no bearing to argue over. And above all, respect the other members here. Or I will close this topic. This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place. Can we act like it?

[Melissa A.]

I don't know... maybe this will get me in trouble, but I don't think this thread was uncivilized or mean at all. There are lots of strong opinions, and some dissagreements, but I don't see any unecessary attacks, name calling, etc. I didn't(and this is subjective, I know) percieve anyone forcing their views on anyone.

Any discussion or debate involving opinions, by necessity, will result in people comparing their opinions to the one's already stated. I think that is more healthy debate than forcing opinions on people. I certainly don't think that my opinions are more fact than anyone else's. I write them to a) state what I think about a subject,and maybe help people see the validity I see in it, and b) to get feedback so I can maybe be enlightened to another, just as valid point of view.
I'm perfectly willing to change my mind about some stuff if someone points out something I hadn't thought of. As long as it is done in a civilised, respectful way.

Having said that, you can't always come accross as "nice" when dissagreeing with someone. But you can still be respectful.

We're all big girls here, and as long as a disscussion doesn't degenerate into name calling, or shouting accusations at one another, I don't see a problem with debating and dissagreements, even strong dissagreements. I welcome differing points of view.

I guess I said all this because I enjoyed reading and writing on this thread. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think it got out of hand.

The same girls who gave very strong opinions on this thread, and gave their critique of other's opinions (still don't see anything wrong with that) are some of the same girls who have been so helpful, supportive, enlightening, funny, goofy, and irreverent in many of their earlier posts. There is a time to be supportive, time to be funny, and a time to debate the issues that confront all of us, hopefully for the better.

I'm sorry if I'm the odd woman out here. But I thought this was a great thread. Guess I could be wrong. If I wrote anything here that really hurt anyone, I am terribley, sincerely sorry. But I still don't see that anyone did that on this thread. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

Hugs,

Melissa :)
.

[MonaSmith]

Well said Melissa, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We are all big girls here and as long as we are all capable of moderating ourselves, which is mostly what was in evidence on this thread, I don't see that informed discussion can be anything other that good for us all.

At work I just did a diversity training course and, for the most part, it was interesting but not earth shatteringly eyeopening, but it did raise the point that it is okay to differ in opinions by saying "I don't agree with what you are saying" rather than "I don't agree with you". It is a small point but it makes the discussion much less about personal attacks and much more about exchanging ideas and opinions. If we all keep it non-personal, then we shouldn't have any major problems.

Let's not blow all this out of proportion, this forum is better than that.

Mona xx.

[Tamara Croft]

This most certainly is not true. There is no way you will ever convince me or anyone else here that you have seen "just as many" emotional men in your life as women. I'm certain we all know better than to buy into this one...

This is the sort of statement I think Tristen is talking about. Carrah, you can't say that it isn't true as you don't know her and her friends. Just because you may not know any emotional men, does not mean someone else doesn't. It's the same as you telling me that I've never wanted to be a man and telling me that I'm unique because of it. Those are your beliefs not ours.

The title of this thread is 'Crossdressing, what's all the big fuss' lets try to keep to the topic without winding up members and telling them what they are saying is inaccurate.

Tamara x

[Melissa A.]

Not only that, But she also said, "there is no way you will ever convince me or anyone else here...." How do you know what I can or cannot be convinced of, Carrah?

So maybe Tristen did Have reason to chime in here, and remind us to respect eachother's opinions. Thank you for pointing that out, Tamara. Guess I didn't read as closely as I had thought.

But I still think Mona's point about moderating ourselves holds true most of the time, and I still think this was a great thread that, a couple of wayward statements notwithstanding, did not cross the line into chaos. I found it interesting reading. And I actually thought Carrah had some interesting things to say, whether I agree with them or not.

I guess the "emotional" debate depends on what the situation is. When not Melissa, I am pretty much, I think, a typical guy. Women in my life have, at times accused me of what is typically thought of as "guy insensitivity", things like not listening to everything they say. And I have seen women get emotional, no doubt. But I have seen men do the same thing, in different ways. What about the guy who loses his temper and punches something he is trying to fix? Is that not emotional? What about fighting itself? certainly not born of logic. And I have certainly met more hyper jealous and posessive men than women. Another emotion.

I have also known and dated women who are quite cold, calculating, and unresponsive. I don't think either gender has a monopoly on bad attitudes or habits. I'm not saying there are no differences, but that absolute generalizations are wrong.


As far as the actual title of this thread(finally!) I stick mostly to what I have said. There are mtf cds, and ftm cds. the second group, from what I have seen, is much smaller. Then there is everyone else, and us, when we are not crossdressing. Women have more variety, and freedom to dress as they want. men have far less. But again, this is totally seperate from what I believe, most men get from cding, and cannot be compared to a woman wearing pants! Even if guys were free to wear skirts and silk blouses, I believe a true crossdresser would still have problems in society because cding is about gender identification, not just clothes. At least for me. And complainig that women have more freedom to wear what they want, then wearing women's clothing because it makes you feel more like a girl is somewhat inconsistent, to me. Although also not that big a deal to me. If women have more freedom and variety to dress as they please, I am happy for them. And happy for me, when I am a girl.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Carrah]

[COLOR=Red]Carrah,
I seriously doubt that most women who wear pants consider themselves crossdressers or are attempting to mimic men. Did you ever consider that sometimes women simply find pants more practical, comfortable, or modest than a dress?
My point here is that how they view themselves - what they consider themselves as doing, is not relevant - it is what is. You put on clothes designed for the opposite sex and you are in fact crossdressed by definition - like it or not.

With respect to whether they are attempting to mimick men, who knows? Maybe? Whether consciously or otherwise, maybe that's exactly what they're doing. Maybe on an unconscious level they are letting us know they can dress like men or women anytime they choose? I have no idea with respect to that...

[Tamara Croft]

This is an excellent thread and has been so far a good debate. One thing I have just thought about, I know women that can't even get into womens clothes, because their figure is just not cut out for them. They have no choice but to wear clothes made for men. I don't think that makes them a crossdresser, as it's a necessity and something out of their control.

Tamara x

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Leave it to the Kewster to disagree and post an unpopular opinion. But here are a couple of radical ideas. One, I don't believe crossdressing at its deepest level is about dressing at all. Chaw on that one for a while. It's about expressing one's inner sense of gender--which for most crossdressers happens to be males expressing a female aspect of themselves. Whether they are dressed or not, the feelings and inner perceptions are still there. Two, I disagree about women wearing men's clothes and being able to get away with it. You need to understand and accept that there is a collection of clothes which have become more androgynes (sp? sorry). For instance, my grandmother was born in 1899 (no, she's no longer with us) and she never, EVER wore a pair of pants in her life and was mortified that I wore pants that zipped up the front like a man. Women should've, in her mind, had their zippers on the side or up the back. Times have changes as the cliche goes. Now pants are genderless. And some other garments are genderless as well. However, if I decided to go to work in a man's three piece suit; I'd get some odd looks and comments. Granted, I won't argue that women have more lattitude in what they choose to wear. But times will change again, kids and some day, who knows--men may wear skirts only (hell, Jesus did--okay, he wore a dress actually).

And, for anyone that cares--I have NEVER, EVER wanted to be a male. There is nothing about the male world that appeals to me at all. I have always been aware that I am female and MOST HAPPY to be female.

hugs
kew

[Carrah]

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible. This is a place for discussion NOT a place for people to FORCE their views upon others and argue about it. Just because you believe something, others do not have to. It is not a requirement. State your OPINIONS and leave it at that unless you have something to discuss otherwise. Opinions are not proof, hence the have no bearing to argue over. And above all, respect the other members here. Or I will close this topic. This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place. Can we act like it?
Now, you had to know that statemnet was going to ruffle a few feathers :)

All debate is healthy debate as long as it is a civilized debate and I have thusfar noted no incivilities within this thread.

No one admires, appreciates, or even likes those who state their mind, stomp their feet, and then run off.

One cannot "force" their view upon another in a forum such as this.

All "proof" comes or eminates from "opinion." Human beings do not seek truth or fact where first an opinion has not been formed. The "proof" is the actual proof of the stated opinion.

We all hate that we are constantly threatened in one way or another pretty much on a daily basis. We awake each day with an understanding or threat that if we break a law or a rule we will be punished in some way, shape, or form. It is not kind natured to threaten those of us here who simply wish to find the truth with respect to that which we practice mutually. Therefore, "Or I will close this topic." is certainly quite unwelcome and truthfully conflicts with the following statement, "This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place."

On a lighter note, try a larger size panty :)

[Tamara Croft]

And, for anyone that cares--I have NEVER, EVER wanted to be a male. There is nothing about the male world that appeals to me at all. I have always been aware that I am female and MOST HAPPY to be female.

hugs
kew
WOW..... that's 2 of us :D kew..... I always knew we were unique :p

Tamara x

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Or I will close this topic." is certainly quite unwelcome and truthfully conflicts with the following statement, "This is supposed to be a friendly supportive place."

:rolleyes: I thrive off debate :rolleyes:
No one learns anything if we all behave like Stepford Wives :eek:
I'm not for that.

*sigh*
hugs
kew

[Melissa A.]

I have to dissagree. How one views themselves means everything. Or maybe it is time to redifine what men's and women's clothing are. Perhaps, nowadays, for all practical purposes, there is no such thing as exclusively men's clothing anymore, except briefs.

No matter how hard I would try, I just cannot look at a woman in a pair of boxers, cause it's comfortable, and say she is crossdressing. Or a pair of guy's sweats or dockers. Or a baseball uniform. Or men's shorts. or a man's golf shirt. This, my friends, ain't crossdressing, as far as I am concerned. Intent DOES mean everything.

Please read my above post. The world ain't fair, maybe. In Carrah's words, It is what it is. Unfair. One sided. Intolerant. But I just can't believe that what today, I consider unisex dressing is crossdressing. I dress to look and feel like a girl. That's crossdressing. I don't believe that your girlfriend throwing on your most comfortable pair of men's jeans is.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Tamara Croft]

crossdresser

cross-dresser n : someone who adopts the dress or manner or sexual role of the opposite sex

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crossdresser

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Baaaaaaaaaaa!

*chews her cud*

*looks around at the other sheep*

*wonders where Jesus is*

hugs
kew

[Carrah]

This is the sort of statement I think Tristen is talking about. Carrah, you can't say that it isn't true as you don't know her and her friends. Just because you may not know any emotional men, does not mean someone else doesn't. It's the same as you telling me that I've never wanted to be a man and telling me that I'm unique because of it. Those are your beliefs not ours.

The title of this thread is 'Crossdressing, what's all the big fuss' lets try to keep to the topic without winding up members and telling them what they are saying is inaccurate.

Tamara x
My point here is that indeed, these are not my beliefs. You see, what I believe doesn't matter; it doesn't change what is.

It is quite unfortunate, but what confuses and trips people up more than anything in this world is their failure or their refusal to accept what is. Each of us wants to beleive we are somehow unique, but were that true we wouldn't be so easily manipulated by something as simple as a television commercial.

Americas founding fathers, and you know these guys were pure geniuses, knew that the masses could be easily manipulated and therefore never gave the masses the ability to choose their leader. Yes, we vote here in America, but our vote represents nothing more than our desire; it gaurantees nothing.

We are all easily manipulated individually or otherwise, externally or internally. The idea of being brainwashed exists and can only be considered successful when it has gone unnoticed or unrealized, which is common. Many of the wars we have won, we have won purely through manipulation or brainwashing followed by a show of strength even during times we had no strength.

Look, human nature is what it is, Tamarra and it most cetainly apply's to each of us; there simply is no escape. It is a common argument to introduce what one perceives as the "unknown" (I.E. I don't know all of her friends), but the point is I don't need to know who all her friends are; it's simply not relevant. The laws of nature dictate these truths...

[Melissa A.]

Carrah, You are using an arguement that does not match your premise. Impressive words, but it doesn't fit. Alot of things do not fit into the catagory of "what is". Human nature, while it can be quantified to some degree, most certainly fits into this catagory.

Behavioralists and psychologists still argue over the differences between the male and female mind, still do studies, often coming to differing conclusions. when you say dissmissively that you don't need to know her friends, because what is, is, THAT IS STILL JUST YOUR OPINION. Your'e just wrapping it in a defense that you think is unarguable, because you present it as something other than opinion. But it is exactly that.

I have no problem accepting "what is". But many of the examples you just cited may or may not be. That is, they are opinion.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Carrah]

I have to dissagree. How one views themselves means everything. Or maybe it is time to redifine what men's and women's clothing are. Perhaps, nowadays, for all practical purposes, there is no such thing as exclusively men's clothing anymore, except briefs.

No matter how hard I would try, I just cannot look at a woman in a pair of boxers, cause it's comfortable, and say she is crossdressing. Or a pair of guy's sweats or dockers. Or a baseball uniform. Or men's shorts. or a man's golf shirt. This, my friends, ain't crossdressing, as far as I am concerned. Intent DOES mean everything.

Please read my above post. The world ain't fair, maybe. In Carrah's words, It is what it is. Unfair. One sided. Intolerant. But I just can't believe that what today, I consider unisex dressing is crossdressing. I dress to look and feel like a girl. That's crossdressing. I don't believe that your girlfriend throwing on your most comfortable pair of men's jeans is.

Hugs,

Melissa :)
You know, Melissa, good stuff; that's all I can say about that post. You bring up an excellent point.

Folks, we may be witnessing the alteration in the definition of a word or phrase. Ever wonder how the word "Gay" came to mean something other than what it means today? Ever wonder how the word "retarded" came to be a bad word? Ever wonder how this phrase changed over the years, "Ward, have you seen the beaver lately?" Well, it's like it just happens. It's like all of a sudden we hear something one day and it no longer means the same thing anymore.

Crossdressing has always been the simple practice of wearing clothing designed for the opposite sex. This is a purely, simple, physical function or activity. However, Melissa has intriduced the possibility that it also somehow involves an emotional aspect and you know what, I do beleive she is on to something with that thought. Melissa is suggesting that to define crossdressing now, one must first realize their thoughts with respect to what they are wearing. The question next becomes, is this still going to be coined crossdressing, or do we now need another word to describe such activity? Or, do we already have such a word? Might simply putting on clothes of the opposite sex be considered crossdressing, while attempting to act or behave as the opposite sex while crossdressed is actually more closely aligned with transgenderism? What about, "crossgendering?"

Simply put, the word "crossdressed" seems to be taking on a transformation of sorts and no, Melissa isn't responisble for this, but she does bring up a great perspective on the word. Have we been using this word or phrase incorrectly, just as we do an alarm clock? I do tend to articulate and can be quite literal at times. When my daughter or girlfriend tell me they were already awake when the alarm went off, I often suggest that maybe they shouldn't have tried to sleep with it on all night.

Maybe we have a decision to make here with respect to crossdressing? Maybe we're attempting to discuss a word or phrase we aren't even certain of what its meaning is? Heck, if we can't even agree on the true meaning of the word, how are we ever going to have an intelligent discussion involving the word?

Arriving at the truth with respect to anything we endeavor is the practice of manipulating a series of 1's and 0's. It would appear we haven't even gotten past the first set of numbers.

Excellent, excellent, excellent, Melissa - excellent! We either must comply with the current definition of crossdressing or we must somehow define the activity and its varying levels ourselves...

[Brandy_Marie]

And, for anyone that cares--I have NEVER, EVER wanted to be a male. There is nothing about the male world that appeals to me at all. I have always been aware that I am female and MOST HAPPY to be female.

hugs
kewHear, Hear! That is one thing that I have never understood. I mean, I completely get Equal Rights for Women and all that. But it just seems that there are women nowadays that are doing nothing more than emulating the worst traits of men. I've got to go with George Carlin on this one; I'll never understand why a woman would want to set their sights so low as to imitate all of the worst traits of men.

I'm not saying that men are all bad; that they are all horrible, loathsome creatures to be despised. However I think that, when viewed as a whole, women are the better half of the species. I'd venture to guess, at least at a subconscious level, that all M2Fs feel that way. We are all, in one way or another, trying to tap into that mysterious power that is woman. That, to me, is the answer to the great mystery of M2F crossdressing; no matter what form it takes. But, that's just my opinion; take it for what it is worth.

On the other hand, there is F2M crossdressing. My comment above as to women imitating men is most certainly not directed at them. Again, this is just my opinion, but I see F2Ms main motivation as changing their physical appearance to find relief from the pressures that most women are put under with regards to standards of attractiveness. That, and it gives them the freedom to be more assertive than they may otherwise be able to be. But I have yet to see an F2M give up the sensitivity and compassion of her true womanly nature to ape the macho attitude of a man; maybe subdue it to pass in the world as necessary when under close scrutiny, but no more. But, then again, my friend Captain Bailey would be better suited to offering opinions on that viewpoint; I'm just hazarding an educated guess based on my observations.

As to Carrah, I was going to point out that it seems your male side is taking hold and expressing itself strongly on this topic. I've since seen your thread "Time to reconsider" and I'd venture to guess that I wasn't too far off. At least, that's the way it is for me, and you sound (right now, at least) like you have a lot in common with my inner man in your attitudes. I do hope you find your way back to us at some point.

Love,

Brandy Marie Devereaux

[Carrah]

Behavioralists and psychologists still argue over the differences between the male and female mind, still do studies, often coming to differing conclusions. when you say dissmissively that you don't need to know her friends, because what is, is, THAT IS STILL JUST YOUR OPINION. Your'e just wrapping it in a defense that you think is unarguable, because you present it as something other than opinion. But it is exactly that.
Melissa, I certainly won't try to deny the above statement; I agree that this goes on each and every day. However, science has come to agree on many points and one of those points is that men are far less emotional and far more logical than are women, and I see this everyday. Like I said, that's not my opinion.

Her statement was that she knew "just as many men" that were "just as emotional" as women. All things being equal, as suggested in that statement, that would have to be considered an impossibility based on what science has proven and upon what I have personally observed. Something is wrong with the statement. For example, if she were to have said she knows far more women than men and that some of those men are as emotional as many of those women, that I could have bought into.

I think we all understood her point, though; that some men are just as emotional as some women. And, to further that stance, I know some women that will shoot you between the eyes without batting an eyelash and with zero emotion.

My point was that too many women have bought into the premise that there is no difference between the sexes and in large part, this thinking has gotten them into trouble and even killed too many unfortunate times. I hate to say this, and I really do, but women in large part do comply with what science has suggested; that their thinking bares little logic. Were women to come to terms with this they would logically live a longer, safer life. For example, women are the number one supporter of firearms restrictions in the United States yet this is the one, single device that can truly make them equal to a 225 pound male intent on having his way with her; no other device can accomplish this and they want to restrict their own access to these devices. Their scientifically proven emotional thinking has allowed them to be manipulated into believing that if the gun is in the house, one of their loved ones will be killed by it. There is no logic or evidence to support that line of thinking. In fact, less than 2,500 U.S. citizens were "accidentally" killed by firearms in this country last year. More children die in their cribs and backyard pools each year Instead, women tend to falsly believe that 911 is the great equalizer. Well, by definition 911 means that you need help and no one is there to help you! That's why you hear so many disturbing deaths on 911 tapes.

No, based on her statement I don't need to know who she is refering to, I know logically it has to be a false statement. Not consistant with what so many would like to believe, that nothing is what it appears to be, some things are in fact exactly what they appear to be...

[Tamara Croft]

It's pretty funny Carrah that your the only one here that doesn't agree with what she said about knowing as many emotional men as women. Doesn't that tell you something, that maybe just maybe your wrong....... she isn't going on scientifically proven waffle, she is talking about people she knows. Therefore your logic isn't correct and neither are you. So please quit shoving logic down our throats because I for one am sick of hearing it.

Tamara

[Roberta-Jane]

I too am fed up with logic.

So much for 'live long and prosper' when the so-called logical men are the ones that have led us into most of the world's wars, especially those based on religious grounds.

As someone from England, (and using my hated male logical side) how can you possibly say that it is logical to keep a weapon in your house that can kill another human being? How many folks in the US are trained to use that gun?

I would say that most of the gun crime with these 'house guns' is anything but logical. Surely it is entirely emotional.

Most of us over here do not understand why the gun lobby is so strong, other than it must relate to the Bill of Rights and the right to bear arms. I have always loved the USA and its people but my feminine side says that this is a right that should very definitely come with a responsibilty to end the need for a weapon other than in the hands of the law. Or are you saying that your lwas are not good enough to protect you without the need to bear arms.

I am interested therefore to know how many of you who go out dressed carry a gun in your purse?

Sorry about rambling from the thread.

I would favour emotion above logic any day.

Peace and tranquility


Roberta-Jane

[TiffanySlave]

You already do. If you didn't there wouldn't be a need for this site or for so many crossdressers to be in the closet.
what are you doing? Complaining about it, is going to get you nowhere, making a stand is a start!

Tamara x

P.S. I'm on your side you know!!



I have made a stand I have my own website with 1800 members and I also am out to family and a lot of others. There are male to female crosdressors that want to be men you jsut never hear about it as much. There jsut called dikes like us CD's are called faggots. I am jsut saying it is hypocrytical and silly. I should and DO wear what I want. I wish more cd's were likeme we wouldn't have to worry about being out in public at a job etc. Oh and I do go out dressed mainly in the warm times. ALthough If you wanna pass easier and are new you could do it in winter as you can wear a girls jacket etc. :)
What a thread :)


P.s
And who cares if its a man that wants to be a women in the cloths? It is still a hypocrytical thing for a women to wear mans clothing and no problem but a man to wear womens cloths and be made fun of. Doesn't matter why he wears them! Just like the old stereotype women are good for the kitchen and the bedroom. WOmen want equal rights and equal pay and a chance at the same jobs like being a jet pilot or a mechanic. Stereotypes and hypcrytical things hurt those things for them also. Lets toss out all the crap and just live? I have been out as a women many times ive just not be read so I don't know how that is. :)

[TiffanySlave]

Oh and im not sure why but today is the first notification that there was a reply to this thread. I came here expecting one reply and 3 pages came up:) You all look great and it is nice to see you all active in the topic. I was in a bad mood the day I posted it but it is accurate. It is Hypocrytical jsut like on lots of things. Here is something to chew on.......... how about this one..........

HYPOCRYTICAL 1:
You can wear a bicini thats has a bra part and a undie part and there is no issues at all with it. It is very very tiny as small as can be at times.

But

If you wore a big covering bra and un revealing underwear you would be breaking the law.


HOWS THAT ONE?


HYPOCRYTICAL 2:
It is illegal for a women to be a prostitute and sell what she can give a way for free but..........

YOu can have a abortion and its her right as its her body. So it is not her right and her body to sell sex?????

Hows that one :)

[TiffanySlave]

Hi TiffanySlave,


Also as for women being in the men's area of a clothing store. We have been expected to do the clothing shopping for the entire family, including our husbands (for generations). So, if we are going to buy clothing for our husbands and sons we need to go into the men's department. My husband still sends me to do his shopping for him because his excuse is he doesn't like to shop.

Hugs,
Topaz



:) I actually buy my own womens clothing and have picked them up for the wife to. At the grocery store I will buy tampons and oother femine products as needed. I even will carry her pocket book for her in a mall. I have no hangups about it and if they don't like it they can @@##$ and find some place else to go :) Like a person said in this thread it is the MALES we mostly have to worry about. Women some may make funof you but the guys will beat you up. THe funny thing is all these same macho men are the ones that are married and hit on me online to have sex with them and many joined my website. ALso a lot of manly men singles do the same thing. YOu would not get them to admint that in public as they call a guy a fag........... We need a Transvestite march in dc or something. THey would be surprised if all of us in the country showed up. Definatle would be MILLIONS............

[samanthajay]

Your wife may wear your clothes, but is she wearing them because she wants to be a man??? There is a difference between just wearing the clothes and wearing them for a reason. Crossdressers etc wear womens clothes because that's what they want to be or feel like 'a woman'. I wear some of my SO's clothes... doesn't mean I want to or feel anyway like a man.

Tamara x
shes got a point

[Natasha Anne]

You raise an interesting subject. Oddly women wear drab a lot, and though I don't find it attractive at all I don't think I should comment.

I sometimes wonder how people commenting about crossdressing is different to them commenting about people wearing clothes that just don't suit them at all. Why is it OK to comment about the former but not socially acceptable to comment about the latter because it might upset them.

[Paula A]

Great debate everyone and it really had got me to thinking on it.

This is what I came up with. Crossdressing is more than the clothing, A comedian in drag is funny, Crossdressing in general for a laugh or for Holloween or an actor in a play or movie roll is more than OK it draws on the general public's curiosity. When We CD we do it for different reasons, At least I do, and in that regard where the BIG FUSS comes into play.

I crossdress, and I think many others do as well, because it is a GENDER ISSUE. (Thanks Melissa for pointing that out.) We dress because we want and need to express ourselves as who we are, feminine men (or rather feminine males). We all like the clothing, the hair and nails, we cry at movies or a sappy book we like things differently and understand things differently than a normal macho guy would. We have a different point of view on the world and ourselves. The BIG FUSS I think goes right to the heart of why we crossdress. We can't be ourselves really because society has been "trained" over the years that if a boy acts the least bit feminine, he gets "scolded", by parents, peers and others and the behavior is corrected. We learn not to act "that way". Everyone gets this training, everyone, boys learn early on how they should act, girls learn that boys should act a certain way as well and the same goes for girls who are are taught to behave and think like a girl.

So the general public, who has had this "training", makes it a big deal because it is not what was instilled in them, "it's not normal". People are scared of differences from the norm. Gays and Lesbians overcame this by fighting for the right to be themselves, but still everyone looks at the "butch" GG and makes comments. For them their life style/fashion style creates a BIG FUSS and are closest to understanding our issues. It all comes down to Gender - You are male biologially so you should act macho, or you are born female and you should act like a girl. This thinking is what causes the BIG FUSS made about males crossdresssing and acting feminine. If you are a feminine gay man its "OK" by society because he is gay. But be hetro or Bi and wear womens clothing and look out! It mixes up the standards and everyone makes such a big fuss about it.

This "training" we've had since early on is generally at the root of what causes depression, guilt, shame and confusion in crossdressers. Overcomming that training is a big step in accepting who you are and living a truely happy life. You do not fit into the standard mold society has created. It is also that "training" that makes being a CROSSGENDERED person a BIG DEAL. We think crossdressing is a big deal because we make it that way by going against our "gender training". Crossdressing is what we do because we are crossgendered, (when crossdressing is not fetishized for sexual gradification, or be submissive in a sexual context which is a different story) and being crossgenderd is not normal and therefore is cause for concern, histairia and confusion by the general public at large. Maybe that is what causes the BIG Fuss when it comes to crossdressing.

Again, great debate, great topic, it really has me thinking hard on why I crossdress, I think its my way to express my crossgenderness. Sexually I'm male, but otherwise I'm a mixed bag of gender confusion and I like it that way.

[Melissa A.]

Hi Paula,

Wish you had gotten here earlier. Would have saved alot of ink. or bytes. or bits. or boots. Whatever. (I got a shoe reference in there! Still got it!)

Great insight, my friend.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Amelie]

It was nice reading your post Paula, just one question. You say it's OK to be a femenine gay man because he is gay and society accepts fem gay men, How does one know that the fem man is gay? If you see a man acting fem how can we tell if he is gay or maybe he is a straight Cd, who is acting fem when not dressed. I just think this is sort of stereotyping, I have met fem acting straight men as well as gay.

I think I might do a poll to find out where people live. I don't mean the exact town, but I wonder how many here live in rural or suburban areas. Because the way of life is quite different in the cities that I have lived in. The areas that I have lived in, people don't really care how one dresses, male or female. Yes there are CDs walking around my neighborhood, there are women who you describe as "butch" walking around, there are goths, punks, b-boys, all different types of people, and no one cares how someone dresses. No one in my neighborhood is complaining how one gender has it better than another, we just live together, all types are welcome.
I don't want to sound harsh, but I think the majority here are living in Rush Limbaugh territory. Most here must be living in the narrow minded part of the world. I have never met anyone, while living in the city complain that they are being treated unfairly because of the way they dress.
Yes, the cities have their problems, but complaining about who can where what clothes is not one of them.

[Melissa A.]

Hi Amelie,

Having grown up in NYC and lived most of my adult life in MUCH more conservative (with exceptions) pretty far upstate NY, I'd say you are exactly right.

The differences are astounding. The fear of anything different is rampant outside of cities, especially the coastal cities.

You are surrounded by diversity, and are used to it. It is totally different in this area, even in a city like Albany, which is fairly progressive, by upstate standards.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[TiffanySlave]

my original point was that it is a double standard that women can wear or dres anyway they want and a man doing the same is not accepted. Not ice I left out cannot as you can do what you want. It and LISTEN CLEARLY... DOES NOT MATTER IF THE MAN WANS TO BE A WOMAN OR A FROG or a elephant! It is still a double standard regardless. You should dress and be femme or mascualine if you want no matter WHY YOUR DOING IT. somehow in all this debate this was lost. I don't care if a guy wants to be a women and dresses or a women dresses in mens cloths and doesn't wanna be a man "SOME DO THOUGH!" i am stating a FACT.... that there is a double standard and that is it PERIOD. It is a FACT. so all that dribble about why and its okay for women becasue they don't wanna be men is irrelevant to my point of the double standard.

Anyway my family knows and I am not getting a sex change I jsut prefer to be very femine and be pretty. Men can be pretty to and in many cases more sttractive and pretty than some women. Of course women are said to be the better looking sex as they have the freedon to do that and obtain it without a problem. They have all the best clothing and wigs etc to wear. Let loose all the issues of a guy wearing them and you will see some very sexy TV's.


Remember men can be SEXY and beautiful to..........

Oh and like i mentioned origianlly is that if we go by todays stadards all the founding father were crossdressers. Wigs and makeup. Oh and anyone in scotland and mail is gay and CD becasue they were kilts / skirts.....

It is all HORSE MANURE if you ask me...........

Thank you.

[Topaz]

(snip) We need a Transvestite march in dc or something. THey would be surprised if all of us in the country showed up. Definatle would be MILLIONS............

Tiffany,

I totally agree that we need Transvestite marches! I can't afford to go to DC, can you get it a bit closer to Minnesota? To do a Crossdresser Pride March would be outstanding. Sometimes there is such a thing as safety in numbers. And get the GG's who support crossdressers to come along, we're VERY protective of our crossdressers!

I don't agree with double standard in any form and they should be done away with completely. The only way that we can change the double standards is to educate people (as impossible as that can be). To let them know what cross dressing is truely about no matter what stage a cross dresser is at in their lives. The M-F and the F-M don't need the bs.


Carrah,

My body is the way it is, I don't change it to make people either look or not look at me. I don't wear bras that either accentuate or deminish what I am. Most of the conversations that have been held to my breasts were while I was wearing loose fitting clothing. (I just don't like to wear clothing that restrict my movements.)

Most of my friends are male.

Also, it's been a while since I've checked the stats on life expectancy but last time I looked us emotional females out live the logical males by about 20 years.

No, I won't use a gun against someone, I can't see them well enough so won't take the risk of missing. But, they will be speaking to the business end of my katana. (We have a eclectic collection of weapons to say the least, most of them working "replicas" from the 18th century.)

Topaz

[Sweet Susan]

So, what are you saying? I'm NOT a crossdresser? I don't understand the very slim definition that you are putting on the term. We are all crossdressers, we all dress in the clothes of the opposite genetic form, our reasons might be very varied and our end goals may be different, but we all crossdress. I'm not trying to provoke and argument, I'm just not sure of how, or why, you are trying to define it so.

Mona xx.

I was going to stay off this thread as I was asked to pull one of my comments, and being censored isn't something I swallow well. But I don't want any misunderstandings between Mona and myself. So, here goes.

Mona, I am not saying you are not a crossdresser. I'm not saying anybody is anything or not anything. What I am saying is that I am not a transexual, though I do fit into the classification of transgendered. I have no idea what you are, as I've never met you except for on this site. However, I have found, particularly on this forum, that there is an unwillingness to accept distinct definitions. They aren't my defiinitions, I'm not married to them, and I could careless who believes in them, but I do. Transgender definitions have been designed for a reason, and much of this discussion is an example of that. Like I said, I don't know what you are, except gorgeous.

[ChristineRenee]

Crossdressing....why the big fuss indeed Tiffany?:confused:

[TiffanySlave]

The big problem is that there is no organization to cd's mtf or ftm. I mean a while ago gays had the same problem. certian things alike a man wearing an earing was soemthing that was not accepted. Now day s they have like rings in there ears and the nose and anywhere you can fit one. The thing the gay and lesbians did is organize and do it on a bigger scale. TS and CD have that but there jsut all spread out in small groups in cities. There needs to be ONE big one that they all can be a part of. DO that and there is your march. It would be enough to populate a city like baltimore were im from if all ts ,tv,cd and ts were to come out. HEY WE COULD JUST HAVE OUR OWN CITY :) Kick em out and we can live there and if they dont cross dress will kick em out of scool and suspend them :) eheh

[Paula A]

Hi Amelie,

Having grown up in NYC and lived most of my adult life in MUCH more conservative (with exceptions) pretty far upstate NY, I'd say you are exactly right.

The differences are astounding. The fear of anything different is rampant outside of cities, especially the coastal cities.

You are surrounded by diversity, and are used to it. It is totally different in this area, even in a city like Albany, which is fairly progressive, by upstate standards.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

Amelie,
Hi hon, love your latest avitar Pic, It looks great. You are 100% correct. Melissa hit the nail right on the head. IT ALL DEPENDS UPON YOUR PERSPECTIVE. If you are used to the diversity in your area, no one would pay you much mind but out in the sticks or smaller cities where diversity has not become the NORM a man in a dress will stand out. Set up that poll it would be neat to corrilate the poll to your view ponit to the region in which CD's live. I think Yvonne is working on another questionair/pol; that delves into this issue a bit. Check out her site for crossdressers.

Melissa - Thank you.