Protections against discriminaton for recreational cross-dressers?

[SiobhanW]

So how do the protections against discrimination apply to recreational cross-dressers, if at all?

I'm not gay, but should those protections be appropriated if I were to find myself discriminated against because of a feminine appearance? Or are there better and more applicable protections in the transgender arena?

Is it even appropriate or ethical to consider the use of these protections, since I am neither gay nor transgendered (at least not in the strictest sense of the term)?

[Sally24]

Since they are all state laws they vary from place to place. Many of them include people who "don't present in the stereotypical male or female appearance". That includes presentation as well as behavior. The ones that protect actual "dressing" in the workplace usually require that you pick some mode to stay in. You can't show up one day in a mini skirt and the next in a suite and tie. They also require to follow the appropriate workplace dress code for the gender that you are presenting.

[SiobhanW]

Thanks for the response. I have no intention of ever dressing at work (at least beyond underdressing), but am concerned things like the longer fingernails (perhaps even polished), lack of visible body hair, subtle ear piercings, perhaps even absent mindedly doing something "girly" like walking with a wiggle or acting what might seem a bit camp to the uneducated, may someday come back to haunt me.

[Eugenie]

So how do the protections against discrimination apply to recreational cross-dressers, if at all?

Thank you for bringing up that important subject.

I don't know what is the situation in the USA, but in Europe that group remains quite subject to discriminations. Even frequently more so than Homosexuals bisexuals or transsexuals... LegallyThe Eu Charter of fudamental rights prohibits discrimination on various grounds, including sexual orientation and gender identity.

I'm trying to find ways to support some advocacy at the European level for x-dressers who are not transsexuals. My other activities in the domain of antidiscrimination (People withdisabilities) have put me in contact with LGBT networks. I'm trying to raise the awareness on this subject of what you call "recreational cross-dressers"...

Not very easy as the problem is well hidden in the privacy of each individual x-dresser's life and very few are ready to become self advocates...

:hugs:
Eugenie

[battybattybats]

That is a very important topic.
Rights and protections are a political issue so like it or not it's important for us CDs/TGs etc to be political. It doesn't need to be partisan or ideological but it can't not be political.

At least in the privacy of the voting booth you are free to vote as your conscience dictates, no-one else will know that you voted for someone with CD-friendly policies.

What ways could there be for closeted folk to support the cause? For those unable to speak directly how can they do so indirectly?

How many of us are really informed about what the laws are in our own countries? What the policies are? Who is working to our benefit and who opposes us?

As many of us buy our clothes online maybe a good way to raise funds for CD/TG advocacy would be an online store that passes the profits on to the cause? That way the most closeted CD buying their panties and stockings online could be helping make it safer to one day come out or for the next generation to never end up in the closet?

[trannie T]

We have very limited protection under the law. Recently our congress failed to enact laws to protect us. There is an election this year, if you are concerned about your rights support those candidates who will support us.

[Ashley Williams]

Yes- interesting one, this.

I am not at all sure what protection is available in the UK. Our local Chinese take-away employs a cross-dresser/transexual - I'm not sure which as I've never seen her as a man.

No-one bats an eye when they are served by her and she is very matter-of-fact about it.

Most people are so defensive about it that other than at events like Gay Pride, I don't suppose it is pushed much.

Certainly food for thought, though. Having only recently told my wife about my dressing, I am still exploring my boundaries and this does not extend yet to anything public. Also, being self employed I do not have some of the constraints others do, and can dress on my own in the office with ease.

Worth looking at in more depth, though. Good post!

[Megan72]

Discrimination in the US requires membership in a "protected class" such as a racial minority. A generally accepted practice of the government these days includes gay/lesbian individuals, but not not transgendered, yet. I think that is why recently we have seen GLB groups begin using GLBT initials to further this policy debate. If you work in a private industry, many companies have been very forward thinking and included policies to address transgendered individuals. Government has not really followed suit, but on the plus side, Government seems to be more tolerant of the public servant's differences.

To answer the question from an Administrator's point of view, there is no class protection for crossdressers. I believe that there could be an argument for transgendered, being discrimination based on gender. Probably not the answer y'all wanted but it is my thoughts on the reality of the situation.



As many of us buy our clothes online maybe a good way to raise funds for CD/TG advocacy would be an online store that passes the profits on to the cause? That way the most closeted CD buying their panties and stockings online could be helping make it safer to one day come out or for the next generation to never end up in the closet?

Sounds like a good business for ya Batts. I'll buy from ya!

[Niya W]

So how do the protections against discrimination apply to recreational cross-dressers, if at all?

I'm not gay, but should those protections be appropriated if I were to find myself discriminated against because of a feminine appearance? Or are there better and more applicable protections in the transgender arena?

Is it even appropriate or ethical to consider the use of these protections, since I am neither gay nor transgendered (at least not in the strictest sense of the term)?
California has specific anti transgender discrimination laws. If you are dressed as a women you can not be bared from the womens dressing room or bathroom. You can not be fired for being trans. It falls under civil rights violations in CA. Oh and for the laws definition they talk about gender identity or expression, which would include CD's

[Megan72]

California has specific anti transgender discrimination laws. If you are dressed as a women you can not be bared from the womens dressing room or bathroom. You can not be fired for being trans. It falls under civil rights violations in CA. Oh and for the laws definition they talk about gender identity or expression, which would include CD's

Thanks Niya, I was not aware that Calif. had enacted these laws. I am glad, but it makes me wonder what would happen if challenged in court. Usually civil rights are tied to either a minority, or a disability. As I said I can really see the transgendered argument since it can be related to the DSM-VI, crossdressing is unfortunately just clothing. It would be like firing someone for wearing an ugly tie.

[Niya W]

Thanks Niya, I was not aware that Calif. had enacted these laws. I am glad, but it makes me wonder what would happen if challenged in court. Usually civil rights are tied to either a minority, or a disability. As I said I can really see the transgendered argument since it can be related to the DSM-VI, crossdressing is unfortunately just clothing. It would be like firing someone for wearing an ugly tie.

http://www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/AB%20196%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf


The Ninth Circuit has recognized that men may be discriminated against on the job because
they are perceived to have feminine characteristics. Antonio Sanchez, in Nichols v. Azteca
Restaurant Enterprises, Inc., 256 F.3d 864 (9th Cir. 2001), was subjected to serious
harassment by co-workers who attacked him for walking "like a woman," referred to him as
"she" and "her," and derided him with vulgar name-calling cast in female terms.


The courts have extend some protection for people who did not conform to standard gender identity before the California law went into effect.

The law is talking about gender identity, perceived gender identity or those that dont not conform to the standard role of ones gender identity.

[Megan72]

Thanks for the link, but I am not a Lawyer, I am an Administrator within the public sector, and while in that case I agree with the decision, there are many times when Admin. and the courts do not see eye to eye. My views are from looking through the administration lens, not the legal lens.

[Melissa A.]

Currently, 13 states and over 55 US cities have anti-discrimination laws which specifically describe transgendered persons or persons who's appeareance does not conform with their biological gender. This is understood to mean crossdressers, as well as transexuals, if I correctly understand most of the literature on the subject that I have read. these laws are meant to protect TGs from discrimination in the workplace, housing, and education. Do not take it to mean you may, as a TG or crossdresser, legally use a public restroom of the opposite sex. In fact, many of the states and cities with tg anti-discrimination laws specifically forbid such practice, as a means to compromise with those who were against that very thing. Although some do allow it.

Tg activists believe that one of the problems is the American Psychiatric Association's description of transgenderism and even crossdressing as a "mental disorder". Getting that changed has proven tougher than enacting local laws protecting tg's. As Brie, the hero in "Transamerica" said, (I paraphrase) "Doctor, don't you think it's strange that one can cure a mental disorder with surgery?"

The "T" has always been the red-headed step child of GLBT. When New york passed it's first anti-gay legislation, lawmakers refused to include transgendereds. They did so a couple of years later. And yes, it's hard to have a movement when many prefer to stay in the closet. Understandably, since being a tg or cd is far less understood in general than being gay. People are pretty uncomfortable with gender ambiguity. Search the internet for transgendered legislation to find out if your city or state has such anti-bias statutes.

In the meantime, if you want to join us in doing something a bit more global, albeit symbolic, go to http://www.petitiononline.com/xgender/petition.html

hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Niya W]

california transgender = protected status . We have thing like the TLC trans gender law center

This has been through the courts in California and survived. Its Made it to the 9th circuit and survived

http://www.eqca.org/atf/cf/%7B687DF34F-6480-4BCD-9C2B-1F33FD8E1294%7D/factsheet_ab196.pdf

[Megan72]

Thank you Melissa, very well stated. i will be sure to stop by the web site as well.

[Niya W]

;Do not take it to mean you may, as a TG or crossdresser, legally use a public restroom of the opposite sex. In fact, many of the states and cities with tg anti-discrimination laws specifically forbid such practice, as a means to compromise with those who were against that very thing. Although some do allow it.

:) not in Calfornia :) you can use the womens bathroom :)

[Sally24]

Currently, 13 states and over 55 US cities have anti-discrimination laws Do not take it to mean you may, as a TG or crossdresser, legally use a public restroom of the opposite sex.

Quite right! Boston and Cambridge Mass. both include using the restroom of your "presented" gender as a protected right. However, the proposed state legislation does exclude granting this right statewide. Too bad.

[Julogden]

I don't know about the wording of the California law protecting T-rights, but where I live, the Cook County, Illinois law is based on "the actual or perceived appearance, expression, identity, or behavior, of a person as being male or female, whether or not that appearance, expression, identity or behavior is different from that traditionally associated with the person's designated sex at birth." The law provides protection from discrimination in employment, in public accommodations, in housing and in credit transactions.

So, from what I can see, it's based mainly on presentation, and I suspect that laws in other parts of the country are similar, so I'd bet that you're covered. But check and make sure.

Carol

[DonnaT]

Yes, it all depends on where you live and whether or not anti-discrimination laws/statutes have been enacted to include gender identity and expression. Note that some only protect government workers, where others protect all.

Still, many, too many, have 'at-will' laws for employment, and one can be fired for no reason at all.

This is one reason so many are concerned with being seen out and about. And courts are about 50/50 in basing their sex discrimination decisions on Title VII (prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin) of the Civil Rights Act.

Like in the Wynne Dixie case, where the person was out, recreationally, and fired. The court upheld the firing. Other cases went the opposite way.

This is why an inclusive ENDA is so important.

[Cindi Johnson]

As a Texas resident, I (along with the nearly 20 million other residents of this state) am not protected. Ditto for residents of most of the other states.

The issue for crossdressers is generally not whether we can dress at work or use a certain restroom. The issue is whether we can be fired for dressing on our own time. Today I'll be going to Starbucks to enjoy a coffee and pastry as I read the Sunday newspaper, after which I'll stop by the supermarket to buy groceries. I'll be dressed like a female because I enjoy dressing like a female. It should be my right to do so.

But, if a coworker should be at Starbucks at the same time I am, and recognizes me, I could be fired from my job when I go to work on Monday. Fired for crossdressing on my own time.

This could happen legally in most of the USA. I think it is wrong. Very wrong. And I also think it is very apparent which political party here in the USA is most to blame.

Yet on this and other boards, when the subject comes up, there's always many, many CD'ers who stand up for the status quo. It's discouraging to me that so many CD'ers were either against ENDA, or completely ambivalent about it. When transgendereds were removed from ENDA's protections, where was the outcry?

And when Bush vetoes ENDA, which now protects only gays, will most crossdressers feel smugly satisfied?

My opinion: most crossdressers live comfortable middle class lives well outside of public view. They are more concerned about such stupid issues as the teaching of "intelligent design", or a promised tax cut, or even whether their fantasy football team wins, then they are concerned about the right of us to crossdress in public.

Cindi Johnson

[MsJanessa]

California has specific anti transgender discrimination laws. If you are dressed as a women you can not be bared from the womens dressing room or bathroom. You can not be fired for being trans. It falls under civil rights violations in CA. Oh and for the laws definition they talk about gender identity or expression, which would include CD's

Maine does too but as far as I know there has been no reported cases where TGs have sued under it---It's been the law for about two years now.

[Melissa A.]

My opinion: most crossdressers live comfortable middle class lives well outside of public view. They are more concerned about such stupid issues as the teaching of "intelligent design", or a promised tax cut, or even whether their fantasy football team wins, then they are concerned about the right of us to crossdress in public.

Cindi Johnson

Wow, Cindi. That's quite scathing. Not that I disagree with your view of the current admininstration's priorities, or with your opininon on those who would ignore or oppose someting that doesn't affect them directly. I agree entirely. But do ya really think most girls here, and most middle or upper middle class transgendereds feel that way? Maybe some, but I'm not sure it's a majority. But I'm open to having my mind changed. If you are right, then I agree, It's a sad comment on our society. "If I don't have to deal with it, then I don't care" attitude makes a person a terrible citizen. But I would like to think it isn't so. Many tg's regardleess of their economic or social status, know what it's like to feel different, and to be stigmatized. I dunno, Maybe I'm being naive.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy: