Should we encourage.....?

[Dee Jay]

I'm not feminine.
I have facial hair.
I'm quite broad at the shoulders.
I'm tall.
I'm overweight.
I wouldn't pass in a month of Sundays.

Now on many occasions on this and other forums, I have seen pictures of people with the question "Do I pass?"

99% of the time the replies say "yes", when a some of the time they should say "Only in the dark" or "At a short sighted convention"
Now don't take this the wrong way. I'm all for people who want to get out and about and walk amongst the world to do so, but to tell someone that they easily pass and encorage them to do something that might get them laughed at, insulted or even hurt is surely wrong.

If someone looks like a man in a dress, should they not be told so?

I was watching a TV programme here in the UK the other night. It was about the wives of crossdressers. One of the CD was very good looking as a girl, but some of the others left a lot to be desired. There was one lady (the SO of a CD) who actively encoraged CDs to get out into the public. One of these looked and always will look like a man in ladies clothes.
They went to one area and the laughs, the name calling and abuse from the local lads was quite shocking. This person should not have been encouraged to put him/herself into that situation.

This is not just for the persons sake, it's for the sake of crossdressers everywhere.
To many, we are considered freaks. And it's no wonder when you see of the CDs/TVs at some of the CD events and indeed the pictures they post.
A lot of the members here really do look stunning, some even make me doubt my sexuality. I think to myself "yes I know it's a man, but I would!!!" :)
There are a few who need to be told... "Your outfit looks great, but for the love of God, don't go out. You'll scare the children" :)
I see myself very much so as the latter.

I agree that some people don't really care about what others might think, and more power to their elbows for being so strong, but others who might be slightly nervous, or not able to handle the abuse might be talked into doing something they can't handle, just because we are sometimes scared to be honest.
I also agree that it's a free world and people should be able to go out dressed as they like in whatever clothes they like, but is it fair to tell someone they look female when they quite obviously do not?

It's not fair that unconvincing CDs get shouted at and abused, but this is the society that we live in. Personally, I'm big enough and strong enough to take care of myself, and I have the ability to verbally put down anyone who thinks they are being a smart a**e, but I'm also man enough to know that if I went into town dressed as a girl, I'd get the p**s taken something rotten.

Please don't flame back. This is just a question that I've been wanting to ask for years. I would never encourage anyone to do something that might get them ridiculed. I'm not saying that unconvincing CDs/TVs/TGs etc etc etc should not go out. I'm saying that we should let them know that they are unconvincing before they do, this way they are warned and prepared for any flack that might come their way.

DJ

[Niya W]

I say I'd pass 40% of the time . That will not stop me from going out. I will be honest and if some askes me if they pass I will tell them the truth

[susie evans]

i used to worry about passing and the little details of life but now i concentrate on being who i realy am and don't worry about others who don't realy care ,i just try to live life to it's fullest :hugs:

susie

[Tina Dixon]

There's people here that are in fem all the time and don't worry about this passing thing is, they are who they are and don't worry about looks, I see a lot of real women that don't pass, so whats that old saying? "beauty is only skin deep".

[raleighbelle]

I really have to agree with the original post.

For those of us who restrict our activities to our homes, it doesn't really matter how we dress as it is all about how we feel, rather than how we look to others. For those who don't care, and want to just live out their female persona, and don't care how others respond and how it affects their lives otherwise, that is fantastic for them.

The dream for many of us though is to be female, or at least to be accepted as female when we go outside ,i.e. passing. We greatly fear the repercussions to our families, our jobs, our friends, and ourselves. Some of us know very well we would never pass (the description given in the original post fits me as well) but some would really like to try. I agree that if a person is asking if they could pass, we would be much more fair to give them our honest opinion rather than send them out as an emperor in female clothes. If I were asking the question, I would want the honest answer. I think that is what most are asking for.

On the other hand, if a person is just dressing at home and just wants to know what others think of their look, that is different and certainly encouragement is a good thing!

[Dizzy-Chan]

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I'll be entirely honest. Many people on this board probably can't pass. A good majority of the people on this board will tell them, though, that they do to give the the ego boost or so they don't seem rude. I imagine anonymity would probably allow people to give a more honest answer, like on the chan boards, but frankly i don't see that happening here.

Like i said, not trying to be mean, just honest.

[Heelsnlegs]

I agree we need to be honest with each other and more so with ourselves. I know Im not 100% passable but I have a real need to get out to enjoy all the things GGs do, like shopping, or having a lunch or drinks while enfemme.

I just get around it by going to places where the chances of being accepted or ignored are better. I travel on business and make sure I can get to places that are more accepting

Jen

[Nicole Erin]

All's most of us here see of each other is pictures.
Some people take really good photos, some are good at photoshop...

What pictures do not show is someone walk, voice, etc.

So often when we see photos of each other on the web, we are seeing them at their very best looks and those photos are all anyone has to go on.

I think the best thing to do for each other would be to tell them what should be improved so they have a better chance at "passing" or at least looking their best if they go out in public. There is nothing wrong with telling someone "You should change this or that about your look". Maybe the CD with huge hands should forego the long nails. OLder CD's with dark complextions are not going to look good with that strawberry blond wig.
Honestly takes nerve.

If someone asks how they look, sometimes they do have it together but if not, help them out. I would want people to do the same for me. It might hurt a little if a fellow CD tells us what needs fixed but it is REALLY going to hurt if a bunch of punks say "HAHAHAHA look a man in a dress! hahahaha"

[Kate Simmons]

Pics never tell the full story. Even without using Photoshop or being enhanced in any way, it depends on how the lighting and shadowing comes out as to how well the illusion comes across. I have taken some quite racy pics of myself (which will never be posted here) and because of lighting, they look very convincing. None of the pics I use for my avatars are touched up however as I want to see what others are seeing. Even so, nothing replaces seeing a person up front and personal and I have been quite surprised when that has happened in a number of cases.

Another thing is "staying power". Even with the best of beard cover, I'm not much good in a live situation after 10 hours. The point and goal to me though is to get out there and mingle and we will never really know how "good" we are unless we give it a shot, so I figure it's what the person's situation is and what they are trying to accomplish that should determine any advice. Many times in a thread of this nature, advice is already given by the time I get to it, so I let it stand. Folks need to get their feet "wet" if they truely want to go out. Other times I will PM the person but anything I say is only based on my own experience and the methods I have used.

Bottom line is I'm never going to judge anyone and I have a lot of respect for them if they do decide to be bold and make the plunge and would support them regardless. I would never purposely mislead someone though, only encourage them.:happy:

[Jilmac]

Dee Jay, I could have written this thread just as well as you. I certainly can relate to many of the instances you mentioned. I knew when I began my crossdressing journey 47 years ago, that I was not passable as a woman. There have been only a couple times that I ventured out beyond home while en femme. Even with my femme name (Jill) I am still quite a man in a dress. I am also keenly aware of the limited level of acceptance in my state and the rest of the country. I am guessing that the level of acceptance in the UK is similar to that of the US in most areas of your country.

Even though I know I'm not passable, I still have the desire to go out en femme to shop, dine, or be entertained, and I am learning of places which are accepting at home and in neighboring cities and states. The capital city of my state is much more accepting than most of tho other cities, what with all the polititians, and the fact that a major university is located there. I would feel totally comfortable going out in that city and would not feel any apprehension to being seen in public, day or night. I am also learning of areas in some neighboring states that sponser events specifically for crossdressers.

I plan to go out and enjoy myself as I see fit, and the public and their attitude be damned. I can appreciate your concern of nonpassable dressers, But I'm at a point in my life now , that I don't care what others think or say about me. Living in a free society, it is my right to wear anything I desire, as long as I am not violating any laws. So that being said, I believe I have added more than my :2c: worth. Just some food for thought. Luv and:hugs: Jill

[Fab Karen]

MOST of us don't literally pass. WHat anyone should focus on for going out is looking as good as they can, being presentable for the approriate situation ( **** me platform heels & a micro-mini aren't something you'd wear to go shopping unless you wanted a lot of attention for example).
And you have to be aware of what areas are gonna have people who are accepting (if it is considered normal to see a confederate flag on a town's govt. building, you have one of those danger signs). Not everyone is gonna lovingly embrace you, but many will treat you as just another person of society.

[MJ]

Dee Jay, I could have written this thread just as well as you. I certainly can relate to many of the instances you mentioned. I knew when I began my crossdressing journey 47 years ago, that I was not passable as a woman. There have been only a couple times that I ventured out beyond home while en femme. Even with my femme name (Jill) I am still quite a man in a dress. I am also keenly aware of the limited level of acceptance in my state and the rest of the country. I am guessing that the level of acceptance in the UK is similar to that of the US in most areas of your country.

Even though I know I'm not passable, I still have the desire to go out en femme to shop, dine, or be entertained, and I am learning of places which are accepting at home and in neighboring cities and states. The capital city of my state is much more accepting than most of tho other cities, what with all the polititians, and the fact that a major university is located there. I would feel totally comfortable going out in that city and would not feel any apprehension to being seen in public, day or night. I am also learning of areas in some neighboring states that sponser events specifically for crossdressers.

I plan to go out and enjoy myself as I see fit, and the public and their attitude be damned. I can appreciate your concern of nonpassable dressers, But I'm at a point in my life now , that I don't care what others think or say about me. Living in a free society, it is my right to wear anything I desire, as long as I am not violating any laws. So that being said, I believe I have added more than my :2c: worth. Just some food for thought. Luv and:hugs: Jill

i mean no offense but at the same time have you seen the look of some women ? .. the girls here get an "A" for effort . and there comes a time when we as cross-dressers want more were sick of just staying home and there comes a time when we need to get out explore .. i feel passing is overrated as long as we are respectful and have courage why not ? thanks

[lisa_e_love]

I agree with a lot of what you've written on your post. But I think that 99% of people who don't pass know that they won't and might be asking to know that we think they are beautiful. So, I don't think by complimenting the appearance of this type of crossdresser you've outlined would really put them over the edge to the point where they'd go out and get abused. I'm willing to bet that most everyone has a good enough idea whether or not they can and how well they can with or without comments.

I guess the problem is that we've got to encourage society to accept it, but we certainly don't want anyone to get beaten up in any alleyways. There are some girls here who know they won't pass but go out anyway. I think, "All power to them!" as long as they're careful. Even if a 6' 2" man in a dress with a badly shaved beard and huge shoulders may be alarming to society and many will call that man a "freak", his very presence lets society know that things are changing.

So maybe instead of saying, "You don't pass. Don't go out" we could say, "You look beautiful to us. We think you might get read, but if you're OK with that then just get out there!"

[Violetgray]

I'm not sure, but I think I'm in complete agreement with you.

Bill Maher in his standup gave examples of how this country has, in his not-so-humble opinion, been "Feminized." One of the examples he gave was "Feelings over truth."

We tg-people don't get enough support from society at large, so we try to be that for each other. In our efforts to do so however, we often tell other cd's what they want to hear.. understandable, but not that wise. It can create a false sense of confidence that leads to an unpleasant public experience. Something to consider, however, is this:

Does beautiful=passable?

When cd's on this board compliment each other, they rarely actually use the word passable. Is it possible to be just a beautiful man in a dress?

Now, if you know you don't pass, but want to go out anyway, and are willing to deal with those mental midgets that make rude comments, then more power to you! Otherwise, seek out an honest assessment.. I work hard at it and I'm still not where I want to be, but as they say, perfection is a path, not a destination!

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Like many, I don't enjoy the prospect of hurting someone's feelings. BUT... if the thread specifically asks for the absolute truth then I will do so constructively.
I try to be as truthful as possible in order to help not hinder. We are ALL our own worst critics so sometimes its better to get out there and ask our kin what they think. There are also some that you can tell by reading need an ego boost. Many of us enjoy that and its a nice boost to get through the day.
Everyone goes through that journey of finding a happy medium to put us at rest with everything else. It can be a very hard road to walk.

*hugs*

Zara

[SweetCaroline]

I've hardly ever worried about passing when I go out. I've been out alone and with groups of T-girls and I never once thought anyone looked at us and thought we were actually girls. I've also been heckled as well, some pretty nasty things too, and my attitude has always been "Hey, I know how I'm dressed. Say anything you want. I'm going out with my friends and having a good time."

I've seen T-girls who, especially the first few times, didn't present themselves too well. Most of the girls I know are MUCH taller than me, and it doesn't stop them.

I encourage girls to go out mainly because the reason we sometimes get harassed and heckled is because we are NOT SEEN. We are not a common site. We hide so people don't see us or understand us. I think the more and more of us go out and are seen in public places, weather we pass, blend-in, present ourselves well, or not, the more people will get used to seeing us. More people will interact with us in a positive way. A lot of time people just mind there own business anyways. The trolls eventually go home once they realize you can't be discouraged.

I do however, for safety purposes, encourage going out in groups of two or more, or with an understanding friend or SO.

Just my two cents.

[Babette]

Dee Jay,

Your points are well taken and my post is given with no intention of casting flames. Some people can be too kind while others are painfully too cruel with their criticisms. Obviously there are good and bad consequences to both types.

People have dreams and aspirations. Think back to when we were children. Some of us wanted to become great athletes, musicians, or scholars. Other wanted to be adventuresome and perhaps climb mountains or sail the ocean. Some merely wanted to be more popular or accepted by our piers. Regardless of our dreams, there was nothing more damaging to our self esteem than cold, heartless discouragement from others.

As I grew older, I quickly realized that I would probably never be a world class musician or artist. Instead, I compromised with myself and vowed to become a better one. I agree that not everyone posting a picture (including me) is a perfect "10". However, I hold onto my dream to be better.

Communicating via forums has sensitivity risks because it is "flat or two dimensional" as opposed to "live or in-person" with someone. We cannot see another person's facial expression or body language in their post. Worse yet, attempts with sarcasm, humor, or sincerity are often lost or misconstrued. Without the live, inter-personal communication, even criticism offered with the best intentions can damage self esteem.

Like you, I would never want to encourage anyone to do something that precipitates ridicule. Worse yet, is to destroy someone's dream. It is fair to offer solicited feedback to another's pictures. However, it will be my intention to exercise diplomacy and offer sensitivity when responding. It would be my dream to receive the same.

Babette

[Eugenie]

It is hard to be honnest in many occasions... I plead guilty for that myself... I have often looked at some pics which were really bad and didn't get the courage to say anything...

Perhaps a word or two regarding makeup, choice of clothes and body postures may have helped but I didn't do it...

I only posted some advice to one sister who looked great anyhow and had just a tiny detail that could be enhancing her pics.

Well, on the other hand, not being close enough how may some one really help in any way?

Then there is the fact that pictures may not give very faithfull images of the reality... I have a vivid example of a French CD whose pics were terrible. No way she would come close to "passing" even in the fog... That's what her pics were showing... I finally met her face to face and there she was extremely feminine, far more than in her pics...

But perhaps if some of us had the comments of others on how they think their "en femme look" could be improved, that could be helpfull. Perhaps it could be done via PM in order to avoid embarassing comments to be seen publicly...

:2c:
Eugenie

[Suzy Harrison]

I agree with the original post.

I'm sure, with the view of being supportive and encouraging, people can be misled into believing that they look better than what they really do.

[Amy Hepker]

I would say that I have seen all kinds of GGs all over this country and they come in all shapes, sizes, shades, and faces. There is no reason why anyone can not look like a female, if you use makeup in the right way and shave really close. Your actions talk big time and can give you away. You have to act Female to pass as a female. You have to dress as females dress to pass. You have to have the right wig and makeup to pass. Anyone can pass, Practice, Practice, Practice. I myself have come a long ways in just a few years. Some of you will remember some of my first pics and I did not look anything like a Female, now just look at my Avatar and there is a huge difference. Remember Smile, that makes a world of difference. Remember the saying Smaile and whole will Smile with you.

[shirley1]

well i certainly wouldnt take it seriously if someone on here said they think i could pass ! how can you tell from a photograph that could be of anyone - however when i go to a meeting a meet others then i will take it seriously what they say - then they see you in the flesh and see how you walk act ect - that is excactly why i would never just go out the door on my own in daylite for the first time caus even if you look good (and i do believe you can look very good and still not be convincin) i have said this before but in some areas/neighbourhoods you could be ripped to shreads by walkin the streets dressed - you have got to think of your safety - i mean forget all that but if your still in the closet the last thing youd want to do is walk down the rd and be read straight away by numerous people and then when you go back to your normal male mode people still recognise you and say "theres that tranny we saw the other day" there are nasty people out there and i live in england i would imagine parts of the states are even worse !

[Dena]

I also agree with the original post. Also that you can't really
tell from a photograph. I have to take a whole roll of film to
get 2 or 3 good shots.

I'm not passable for a number of reasons, mostly I'm not into
women's casual clothes so I'd be "overdressed" in most situations. I'm also a tad over 6' tall and 200#.

I've been out a few times and discovered I like to be recognized as a male when I'm all dolled up.

[Chiana]

Good thread. Lots of good stuff here. I have just a couple of thoughts. There are a lot of beautiful girls on here that probably pass on looks but I think there is more to it than just looks. Like confidence. GG's are not constantly looking around a room and wondering "do I pass?" I think many here would be fine if they would just act natural and not spend their time looking around to see if they have been read. And beauty does not necessarily equal passing. A photo does not show if you know how to walk, how to sit, how to act or how to talk like a woman.

And I would have to agree with the original premis of this thread in that I think we do tend to be more complimentary than honest on some occasions. I visited a web site for make up artists and make up enthusiasts and those girls obviously had differing tastes but they didn't hold back if they saw something they thought could be better.

[Nicole Erin]

Even if a 6' 2" man in a dress with a badly shaved beard and huge shoulders may be alarming to society and many will call that man a "freak", his very presence lets society know that things are changing.



PEople might call this Cd a freak, the 6'2" with huge shoulders, but not too many would have the nerve to call her out. :eek:
Well I wouldn't anyways, I prefer to stay healthy.

[jennifer41356]

It may be one thing not to physically look like a woman, but if go out and dress and act like a lady , you will at least be treated like a lady....I have seen Cd's who maybe dont really pass, but they may be dressed like what a lady may wwear for daytime and act like a woamn would act, and folks around them dont really notice....people tend to be in the own world and do not pay attention to things around them unless something grabs their attention...like a 6-2" 250lb "woman" dressed like an 18 yr old schoolgirl...

its a matter of perception, walking, talking, doing thins a lady would do and chances are good no one really would notice..

I used to go to a CD club in Dallas and some of the "girls" would use the ladies room at the hotel or hotel bar and go into the stalls and pee standing up, and they wondered why they didnt pass, or they talk in manly voices and sit like men with a dress on instead of a lady

I have been read several times so maybe I dont really 100% pass, but I conduct myself like a lady and 99.9% of the time , i am treated accordingly.....my :2c:

:love:

[Lora Olivia]

While I have to agree somewhat with the premise of the thread, I must say that in all respect people come in all shapes and sizes and as long as you dress and act appropriate for age and situation I see very little problem going out dressed as a woman. Go to the store and just observe. Now if you go to the local Target or Wally as a 40 yr old dressed in a pink vinyl mini, a halter, 4 inch **** me pumps and fishnets with purple and pink eyeshadow then nope it ain't gonna fly :2c:

[Melissa A.]

I would say that those who couldn't possibley pass know that...And that it depends on where ya go. I'm just too nice to tell someone something that they probably already know, and I give them all the credit in the world for trying, and having fun. But your point is well taken. If you're gonna get out there, you had better have confidence and a thick skin. To everyone- have fun, be safe.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[raleighbelle]

I had posted earlier in this thread, but just wanted to add that I agree that there is far more than just looks in how someone passes. But when they send their picture, I think they are only concerned with comments on their looks. I would love to know if I could pass (If I were close to being able to), so that if I did, I could then work on the other aspects a lot more. As it is, I have never learned how to walk the walk or talk the talk. Any suggestions on how to learn those things?

[Dalece]

As far as what i have seen here there are real GG out there that I wouldn't take a second look at in a total male mode. Some of the gurls here even if they didn't say they pass a second look and that is a complement to all are hard work.

[battybattybats]

One quandry. If only the passable go out and aren't recognised as TG because they pass... how will TGs become visible enough to gain casual acceptance?

[Kate Simmons]

One quandry. If only the passable go out and aren't recognised as TG because they pass... how will TGs become visible enough to gain casual acceptance?Exactly Batty.:thumbsup::happy:

[Dee Jay]

The object of my post wasn't to stop unconvincing CDs going out. It was to ask if we should be more honest so that unconvincing CD don't go out thinking they look like women when they don't.
If people are happy to go out, knowing that they look like a man in a dress then great, I wish that I had their courage. It's the people who think they pass and obviously don't that I worry about.

There has been a lot of good discussion on this thread, a lot of it agreeing in part, if not in full, with me. I was suprised by this.
I was expecting to get flamed big time. It just goes to show what a great forum this is. Maybe that's the problem, everyone here is just too nice :)

One day, I'll be brave enough to post a pic of me here. If/when I do I'll expect a load of no holds barred comments on my fasion sense and look :)
I'll be the first to say "don't go out, you'll scare the children" :)

Thanks
DJ

[yms]

I agree we need to be honest with each other and more so with ourselves. I know Im not 100% passable but I have a real need to get out to enjoy all the things GGs do, like shopping, or having a lunch or drinks while enfemme.

I just get around it by going to places where the chances of being accepted or ignored are better. I travel on business and make sure I can get to places that are more accepting

Jen


I agree with Jen. You can only control how you look and where you go. And unless you are a mind-reader, how do you know if you're passing or not! I think a lot of people who say they pass are assuming that because they weren't called "sir" they fooled people.

Yvonne

[Vicky_Scot]

They went to one area and the laughs, the name calling and abuse from the local lads was quite shocking. This person should not have been encouraged to put him/herself into that situation.

I have been out dressed in that area which was Blackpool, which is a very Tranny friendly town. I have been out shopping dressed on a Saturday afternoon in the town centre and then for a little refreshment in one of the local bars and I can in all honesty say that I had a few looks and a few smiles, a giggle or two from the teenage girls, compliments from older ladies but I never ever felt threatened or had any abuse directed at me. Please, do not because three spotty lads who's hormones are jumping about decide to shout and point make you think this is the norm in Blackpool.

I think what would draw their attention more to these ladies would not be them but the camera crew following them.

The one thing I would say is that I think it was maybe the wrong choice of time of year to take her out for her first time but what a baptism of fire and she coped very well.

I am 6'2" in my stocking soles and I know I do not pass but it's about presentation and confidence. I think as said before that is 99% of Crossdressers actually think they pass as real woman then they are mistaken but that does not mean we should lock ourselves away forever indoors.

Xx Vicky xX

[Jere Oneil]

Dee Jay I agree with you. My build is similar, and my SO is accepting of my lingerie and skirt wearing at home, but even without he beard, if I did pass, I'd look like a big pregnant grandma. To be honest, I'd love to be able to get all dolled up and go shopping like many of the girls here do. And, I agree, although many of the forum girls are so good looking that I might consider going out with them even though I know their biological gender. One other thing, Niya if you only pass 40 percent of the time,then there are a heck of a lot of GGs out there that don't pass either.

[Dee Jay]

I think what would draw their attention more to these ladies would not be them but the camera crew following them.[/B]



Yes I'm sure the camera crew didn't help :)

I used to be a regular visitor to Blackpool. I had friends who lived there.
It does seem a very open minded place, but not somewhere I'd go in full dress.... Unless I had a lot of large friends with me :)

I do think that the timing was wrong for a first time out.

DJ

[JoAnnDallas]

So far, guess I have been lucky or something. Everytime I go out dressed, I seem to have no problem. I have been to Payless, ROSS, and even Walmart and no one seems to care how I am dressed. I have stood in line with other people and no one seem to notice. I am sure that there are those that have noticed but did not say or do anything out of respect. I am sure that one day someone will make a public statement about me.

[Julogden]

I agree with a lot of what you've written on your post. But I think that 99% of people who don't pass know that they won't and might be asking to know that we think they are beautiful. So, I don't think by complimenting the appearance of this type of crossdresser you've outlined would really put them over the edge to the point where they'd go out and get abused. I'm willing to bet that most everyone has a good enough idea whether or not they can and how well they can with or without comments.

I guess the problem is that we've got to encourage society to accept it, but we certainly don't want anyone to get beaten up in any alleyways. There are some girls here who know they won't pass but go out anyway. I think, "All power to them!" as long as they're careful. Even if a 6' 2" man in a dress with a badly shaved beard and huge shoulders may be alarming to society and many will call that man a "freak", his very presence lets society know that things are changing.

So maybe instead of saying, "You don't pass. Don't go out" we could say, "You look beautiful to us. We think you might get read, but if you're OK with that then just get out there!"


I'm not sure, but I think I'm in complete agreement with you.

Bill Maher in his standup gave examples of how this country has, in his not-so-humble opinion, been "Feminized." One of the examples he gave was "Feelings over truth."

We tg-people don't get enough support from society at large, so we try to be that for each other. In our efforts to do so however, we often tell other cd's what they want to hear.. understandable, but not that wise. It can create a false sense of confidence that leads to an unpleasant public experience. Something to consider, however, is this:

Does beautiful=passable?

When cd's on this board compliment each other, they rarely actually use the word passable. Is it possible to be just a beautiful man in a dress?

Now, if you know you don't pass, but want to go out anyway, and are willing to deal with those mental midgets that make rude comments, then more power to you! Otherwise, seek out an honest assessment.. I work hard at it and I'm still not where I want to be, but as they say, perfection is a path, not a destination!


I've hardly ever worried about passing when I go out. I've been out alone and with groups of T-girls and I never once thought anyone looked at us and thought we were actually girls. I've also been heckled as well, some pretty nasty things too, and my attitude has always been "Hey, I know how I'm dressed. Say anything you want. I'm going out with my friends and having a good time."

I've seen T-girls who, especially the first few times, didn't present themselves too well. Most of the girls I know are MUCH taller than me, and it doesn't stop them.

I encourage girls to go out mainly because the reason we sometimes get harassed and heckled is because we are NOT SEEN. We are not a common site. We hide so people don't see us or understand us. I think the more and more of us go out and are seen in public places, weather we pass, blend-in, present ourselves well, or not, the more people will get used to seeing us. More people will interact with us in a positive way. A lot of time people just mind there own business anyways. The trolls eventually go home once they realize you can't be discouraged.

I do however, for safety purposes, encourage going out in groups of two or more, or with an understanding friend or SO.

Just my two cents.


One quandry. If only the passable go out and aren't recognised as TG because they pass... how will TGs become visible enough to gain casual acceptance?

Lisa, Violet, Caroline and Batty,

You four have pretty much summed up my opinion regarding this subject, can't state it any better than you have.:love::hugs:

Carol

[Carly D.]

I think that some of us (when I say us I should say ME) look like a guy in a dress and try as we (I) might, just will not look fem enough to pass.. I don't think I would pass in the bright light of day nor the dim of night.. except to the nearly blind and legally blind... that being said I do think that those who are really trying to pass as female and not looking at all fem should be told "hey you look good, but fem?? I don't think so".. I dress for the feeling of it, and yes I do dress to "pass" when I take pictures of myself, and though I might look passable in my pictures (from the rear and certain angles anyone could pass) I don't have any illusions that I could go out in public and pass as female.. I do however wish that the day would come when men wouldn't have to try to pass to wear what we want.. I like to wear pantyhose and heeled shoes and a skirt now and then but wouldn't think about going out in public.. no way.. but there are those on this site that seem to just be wanting the encouragement from other members to venture out dressed up, and I would tell them to look really closely at yourself in the mirror... maybe that is too harsh but the reality is that you take a giant risk with your life when you dress up... everything can change with our "tolerant" society...

[Charlotte Cross]

Wow DJ, did you ever hit the nail on the head!

Like you, I'm a guy in a dress. Period. The only part of me that could possibly pass are my legs, and my legs can't go out by themselves.

Sadly, there are many here that want to be a woman so badly, that they can't find any fault with the image they see reflecting back at them in the mirror. This applies to all of those who tell them they're pretty too. Both are setting themselves up for abuse and more mental anguish than is already being suffered in silence, because they are guys.

There are only a select few here that can actually pull it off, and I envy you, but it doesn't mean I'm going to try and be like you. I know I can't, and I'm at peace with it.

Understand, that this is not meant as a flame. Hopefully, it's a message to save one of our own from needless embarrassment-or worse.

Remember the story about the King's new clothes?

[robin247]

Friends should be honest on how we look when dressed but we should also put our ego's aside and admit to ourselves that most of us can't pass but then use common sense about where we go when dressed enfemme.
You should always be prepared for a negative reaction but don't let the comments get to you. Be yourself and ignore these silly people and enjoy your life the way you see fit.

[Deborah Jane]

I know i don,t pass and thats why i don,t go out! But i do enjoy enjoy dressing up and taking photos like a lot of us here:happy: I never dress to "blend in" prefering to dress in more of a fantasy or ****ty style [avatar pic]. Why bother to dress to blend in when you know yourself as soon as anyone see,s your face they are going to say "Thats a bloke dressed up". Would i like to pass?..Of course wouldn,t a lot of us?. I would never tell anyone they won,t pass, chances are they probably allready know and the last thing anyone needs to hear is "Nice hun but you still look like a bloke dressed up". Why destroy someones fantasy/confidence? If they decide to go out not passing surely that is their decision and all credit to them!....Just my :2c: worth

[Butterfly Bill]

When I buy clothes, I try to find stuff that hangs well on my male body and makes it look good. I am a man in a dress, and it doesn't look clownish because the clothes fit well. You'd be amazed how many female clothes can.

[Cindy N]

I believe honesty is a rarity at this site. Passing unnoticed and actually looking like a woman are two different things. I can do neither and I am not in the minority. Only a few here who post pictures without touch ups resemble a woman.

[JaytoJillian]

I am totally a boy in a dress, so I totally avoid asking the question, "do I pass?" When I look in the mirror, I'm generally happy with what I see; A mix of my masculine and feminine selves, kind of blended together to make "Jillian." While Jillian may be only able to pass on a dark night at a WNBA convention, passing is not the goal. Expressing the art of the illusion and causing a couple of double-takes every now and then is!

[sandra-leigh]

Passing unnoticed and actually looking like a woman are two different things.

People who have seen me before seem to have little difficulty recognizing me when I am fully dressed, complete with a wig that looks noticeably different than my own hair. I haven't figured out why yet; I don't think my face is particularly memorable, but maybe it's the nose together with the glasses or something like that. (I do wear a more femme pair of glasses, but perhaps they aren't different enough from my regular ones.) But that doesn't stop me from going out.

Do I "pass"? Well, obviously not to those aforementioned people who know me; and I've had enough comments (usually compliments) in clubs to know that at least some people have no problem "reading" me. Oh, and the cab drivers usually call me "sir" (perhaps I need to work on my voice). That I'm better dressed than typical for the places I go probably makes a difference too.

But do I "pass unnoticed"? The majority of the time, I do, in the sense that few people pay attention to me. For example, I've sat fully dressed on seats right by the door on a busy bus, and no-one has paid attention to me. In public, people's eyes just flick right past me most of the time: I'm not exceptional enough for the sight of me to get through peoples' mental filters as something that needs a second look. Even children ignore me. It isn't that people stop, figure out what I am, and then keep going with one of those "It's none of my business" expressions: I've watched peoples eyes on the bus, and they don't even focus on me. People on the street are more likely to focus on me, at least if I am wearing something nice looking; with so many women wearing jeans and the like, a skirt or dress that isn't a plain material attracts a bit more attention. When I'm wearing a plain skirt (long denim, or a long plain black or blue), people don't notice... and you'd be amazed how little people pay attention to a guy in drab wearing a plain skirt (that isn't a miniskirt.)

[flatlander_48]

I think the notion of "passing" is such a nebulous term. The range of what real men and real women look like is S-O-O-O large. I think that give us crossdressers a lot of room...

[bgirl]

I agree with a lot of what you've written on your post. But I think that 99% of people who don't pass know that they won't and might be asking to know that we think they are beautiful. So, I don't think by complimenting the appearance of this type of crossdresser you've outlined would really put them over the edge to the point where they'd go out and get abused. I'm willing to bet that most everyone has a good enough idea whether or not they can and how well they can with or without comments.

I guess the problem is that we've got to encourage society to accept it, but we certainly don't want anyone to get beaten up in any alleyways. There are some girls here who know they won't pass but go out anyway. I think, "All power to them!" as long as they're careful. Even if a 6' 2" man in a dress with a badly shaved beard and huge shoulders may be alarming to society and many will call that man a "freak", his very presence lets society know that things are changing.

So maybe instead of saying, "You don't pass. Don't go out" we could say, "You look beautiful to us. We think you might get read, but if you're OK with that then just get out there!"

Thanks for handling all the verbage because what you said is how I feel. I will get read and its ok! Who gets to deceide who does or does not pass? I think ALL OF YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL! I see myself in each and everyone of your eyes. And when I see your smiles, I smile with you. And when you post your avitars and are feeling sexy or feminine enough to share, I want to feel sexy and feminine too! This is one of the places we can go and its OK to be who we are. Go girls!!

[Dee Jay]

And when I see your smiles, I smile with you.

This is one of the things I like when people post pictures.
regardless of passing or not. I often say to myself "He's happy, and looks very comfortable"
I love to see others looking happy and content. Some look so relaxed. Even if some do look like men in dresses, they look happy.
This is how I feel when I get dressed in the evenings. I'm not a gorgeous woman, but when dressed I'm content. Any inner termoil tends to vanish. I'm so much more relaxed.

Thanks to all those who post pictures. You help me feel so much better. I have quite a few pictures on my hard drive.... one day I'll post one... Don't hold yer breath :)

DJ

[Nicole Erin]

Probably with the whole passing thing - people want to feel good about their efforts. Most of us do not like to admit that we don't pass well. We may say it with easy but to admit it to our vey selves, THAT is hard to do.

I feel bad about it sometimes but I also think I was not born female so what can I do? Spend a fortune for surgeries? nahhh.

[RobynP]

I'm not feminine.
I have facial hair.
I'm quite broad at the shoulders.
I'm tall.
I'm overweight.
I wouldn't pass in a month of Sundays.

DJ

When I finally came out of the closet years ago, I had the same, identical thoughts. But I wanted to go out and about in public...

I was very frustrated until I found that a number of stores such as Lane Bryant specialize in BBW clothing. So I thought that if they had clothing that fit me, then there MUST be women as big as me. Not only that, there must be a LOT of women as big as me, at least enough for these stores to sell their clothes at a profit and stay in business.

I couldn't do anything about having broad shoulders or being tall. I COULD do something about being overweight, facial hair, and feminine. I started reading as many books as I could find about makeup and deportment, not only for the CD but for the BBW as well. I learned what styles of clothing helped to minimize the broad shoulders and what styles flattered tall women.

I have gone out many times in public. I probably haven't "passed" 100% of the time but even though I'm big, I don't stand out...

I think too many CDers don't take the time to learn and prepare how to dress and act appropriately in public which is why they don't pass. I think it takes a lot of effort (at least it does for me) to go from a "man in a dress" to a CD to a BBW look-alike.

I know that I will never be a size 8 but I am okay with that. I don't need to be a size 8 to "pass".

There is a new show on Lifetime called "How To Look Good Naked" where the host of the show takes these BBWs who don't feel good about themselves and transforms them completely in only a week. At the end of the show they feel so good about they look, they are okay being photographed nude (actually more like "glamour" photography).

I think us crossdressers can learn a lot from shows like this...

Robyn P.

[Christina Louise]

When I was in the centre of Bournemouth a couple of months ago there was a man who looked to be in his 60s, and he was heavily built with jowls as a lot of older men get. He was dressed in the type of clothes that a woman in her 60s would wear together with a white, short curled wig and a hat. So he was trying to dress his age.

The sight of him left me in two minds - good for him for doing it but at the same time it was rather sad/pathetic because he didn't look at all female and was clearly just an old man in a dress. It made me wonder whether I might end up like him.. :sad:

[MarciManseau]

I'm so glad you brought this up! I've often wondered when looking at pics here and the encouraging comments if it was wise and fair to the person in the pic to tell them they look wonderful when they really don't.

I'm torn between wanting to be encouraging and saying I love that you want to be pretty and wear nice things, but you really shouldn't go out unless you change things drastically. I just can't be dishonest about something so important.

My solution is to tell the ones I think look nice, just that - I say you're pretty or sexy, or very passable, and then I usually register my admiration for them. For the others, I make no comment at all.



Hugs, Marci :hugs:

[Miss Petra]

There is a new show on Lifetime called "How To Look Good Naked" where the host of the show takes these BBWs who don't feel good about themselves and transforms them completely in only a week. At the end of the show they feel so good about they look, they are okay being photographed nude (actually more like "glamour" photography).

I think us crossdressers can learn a lot from shows like this...

Robyn P.

I know that show has taught this BBW a thing or two so far. Im 6'3 320 lbs and the shoulders of a linebacker. People actually move out of my way when walking near them. I can be very intimidating by my size. I realize no one really cares about how you look if done with class & dignity. I have been to clubs, hotels & places to eat. I dont pass and dont care but I look real good and always act like a lady while trying to be a lady. Its all in the attitude.
Oh yeah I am a man in a skirt and and dam proud of it. If someone said that to me i would say thanks because its true.

Petra

[SfGentleman]

Have you ever noticed that Drag Queens are celebrated while CD'rs are not?? Queens OWN the fact that they are NOT a biological woman! They are ALWAYS 110% a man in a dress and they flaunt it, proudly, confidently! The simple truth is, as CD'rs, we create our own problems. What society hates is shame and weakness and lack of confidence, and it should!! The wonderful things about Queens is that they are funny, flippant and most importantlyinclude you in the joke.

I particularly like Jillian's statement,


When I look in the mirror (snip) A mix of my masculine and feminine selves, kind of blended together to make "Jillian."

While I am fortunate to have lived in very TG/CD/Kink/Gay/Lesbian etc, etc friendly cities, San Francisco and currently Miami, one commonality I have noticed is that, Owning your sexuality, whatever flavor it comes in, and presenting yourself confidently (Queen style) allows people to participate in the magic of the Mixing of the two halves. Dont pass. Mix the best parts of the two! :)

[Jenna1561]

I too believe thatmost of us are too polite to post that someone doesn't pass, even when they specifically ask for an honest opinion. I for one won't post a compliment just to be nice to someone who's looking for an honest opinion, I might PM them (and have in the past), but I wouldn't post anything harsh.

POLLs: If someone is truly interested in honest opinions about whether or not they pass, they should create a poll. As someone mentioned earlier, anonynimity fosters honesty. And if all a reader had to do was check one of a few choices without revealing their identity, I believe they would be more willing to be honest.

example:

There is no need to reply to the following poll. From the attached photos (yes, I know there are many other behavioural factors involved in truly passing other than just looks, but based on these photos only), do you believe I would pass as a woman? Please be honest in your voting. Thank you. :happy:

0 YES, you pass
0 NO, you do not pass

If someone were truly seeking honest opinions, I believe this would be the best method of obtaining such.


Jenna

[Joy Carter]

Passing is just too over rated. Ever take a good look at some GG's ? I rest my case.

[trannie T]

I have been mistaken for a woman a few times. I attribute this to people's lack of observation rather than my impeccable wardrobe and makeup. I go to occasional events with groups of crossdressers and very, very few of us pass. Even though I probably will never look like anything but a man in makeup in a dress I still enjoy every experience and hope to get out more.

[pam867564]

i am one of those guys that could not pass either but i don't care. i know what makes me feel good and thats a nice skirt thong a blouse. as they say if it feels good do it