Healthy masculinity?

[KatieC]

I debated between posting in the MtF forum, or the Loved Ones forum, because I do hope to get input from the GGs on the board as well. But since I'm the CDer, it seemed more proper to post here.

I have to admit, when I read statements from the GGs about "wanting their man", I find myself very confused about what they actually mean. The problem seems to be, I just don't associate "being a man" with anything positive at all. It has to be a flaw in my perspective, one that I'd like to overcome. When I hear "be a man" my mind translates that to "be one of those insensitive, macho, sports watching, beer guzzling, stereotypical males that I don't identify with and can't stand at all." Which does all of the decent males out there a very big disservice.

When I try to think of positive things about being "a man", it seems that inevitably I decide "that's just an aspect of being a mature human being, nothing particularly 'male' about that."

I'm not exactly sure where this warped perspective comes from. My father is, and always was, an honorable, decent man. Sure, he likes sports, and didn't help out around the house very much (although I think that's changed now that my parents are retired), but he's not crass, he's not abusive, he's not one of "those males" that make my skin crawl. But even so, I don't think "be like my father" when I hear "be a man", I think "who would *want* to be male, there's nothing good about it!"

So what is healthy masculinity? What *is* good about being male, that's not traits that the majority of women also have? What is it that I should be thinking, when someone (especially a GG) says "be a man" and doesn't mean it in a negative way?

I'm sure it'd go a long way toward helping me be more comfortable with myself if I understood this in a proper, healthy way. :sigh:

[Dee Jay]

Ooh this is a good one.

I don't do or watch sport.
I do drink ale.. Real ale that is not beer or lager.

I love cars, motorsport,engineering,physics.
I'm a tradesman, served a propper apprenticeship.
Worked in a mans job all my life, but then gave up to look after our son whilst my wife returned to work.
I'm now back at work, though it's not as tough, dirty or physical as my previous job.

I cry, write poetry, love nature.
I need hugs.
I've never sex, but often make love.
I get angry, I swear, I shower when I need to, not when society says I should (these days twice a day every day).
I shave only when my stubble start to annoy me.

I wear lacy underwear, stockings, short skirts, nice blouses.
I have long hair.
I drive a fast car and know how to repair it.
I have painted toe nails.
I have a hairy chest and back.
I have smooth legs

Am I a typical male? :)

When my wife says she wants her man, she means me and that she wants me to hold her. It doesn't matter what I'm wearing... I think :)

DJ

[SiobhanW]

My wife's "man" is me but without any of the superficial trappings of femininity. Note I say superficial, by which I'm speaking in terms of the clothes, the makeup, hair, etc..... I think we both realize that I will still have the feminine aspects of my personality, which she apparently has always liked or she'd have chosen a much more macho guy than me to begin with, but it's perhaps easier for me than for those here whose male and female personalities are more complex and intertwined.

Siobhan isn't around all the time. And while I can't turn her on and off like a switch, if she does happen to be around I can temorarily ignore her needs when necessary. It doesn't do her or me any real harm.

Feels a bit weird to be talking about myself like I have a multiple personality disorder!

[Elizabeth Ann]

Of course, this is often meant in a sexual context, but I do believe that there are admirable and desirable qualities to being a man.

Just as there are physical differences, there is no reason to expect that there are not behavioral differences built into each sex. The natural world is full of species in which there are well defined differences in behavior of the sexes, with mammals, and primates, included.

There are some qualities of men that you may find, in some manifestations, either desirable or undesirable. One such quality is aggression. Everyone can come up with lots of bad examples of this, but it also leads to that instinctive response to protect and provide for our family, to accept greater risks, and perhaps to be stoic and steadfast in the face of adversity.

I imagine that your honorable and decent father, sports watcher that he is, displays these traits. To me, being a man means accepting the burden of trust of my family and friends that I will do the right thing, and then having the fortitude to do that thing with confidence.

Of course, many of the traits of males and females are the result of social conditioning. I once said to my wife, who had sensitized me to the struggles of women, that I did not understand why the women's movement was not more radical that it was. She responded: "That's because you were not raised as a woman." She may be right, but I somehow don't think that men would have put up with it.

Elizabeth

[MarinaTwelve200]

By the question "What is a man?" It all depends on what you mean by "man". The best way to answer that is to look at was a man IS NOT, and then infer from there.

The word MAN can mean several different things, depending upon what it is referenced to, perhaps there is where the confusion origanates. A MAN is "brave" as opposed to being "cowardly" one is either a (brave) man or a coward. A man is male as opposed to being female, a Man is hetro, as opposed to being homo, a man is strong as opposed to being weak, a man is logical as opposed to being emotional, a man is adult as opposed to being a little boy.

A man is a defender rather than an agressor, a man is ambitious rather than being lazy.


Trouble happens when one gets obcessed with "being a man" in some respects, but neglecting others.

Let us also not forget the various "subcultures" where "Being a man" might mean something like a nine year old boy's IDEA of "a man". Where one is more "manly" depending upon how many people he "beats up" of how many women he has sex with (willing or unwillingly). Not going to school (dropping out) is considered "manly" because only CHILDREN go to school, " real men" DO things children "cant", like smoke, drink, use foul language etc. ( the man vs Boy definition) To such people things like Ciggarettes and booze are litterally "Manhood" in a box or bottle, and the more you use them, the more of a "'man" they, in their minds, become.

What a man is depends upon what context or contexts you may be using and also what culture one comes from.

[Stargirl]

I always thought a "real" man tried to keep the peace. (No matter what he's wearing.) I suppose I spend more time nowadays defining what a real man Isn't. (what with the things done in war, and attacking nature.) Real men don't gamble away food money, or belch whiskey fumes in people's faces. Real men don't disrespect people who are not so lucky in life. Maybe I was raised watching too many childhood TV hero shows, but I fell in love with those guys. Kind to animals, running off the scoundrels, respectful to women. Helping an old lady or gent across the street. Defending someone who was different from the "usual" citizen. It stayed with me. Men who are bad can change if they aren't afraid to admit to having done wrong. This applies to women, as well, but I see that it's basically MAN World, when I read current events. I have a saying : "If women ruled the world, good men would have nothing to fear".

[Kali]

As my people say, in Yiddish, "Be a mensch."

Loosely defined: be a man; a decent responsible person with admirable characteristics

[breanna53]

good questions, and like you i get confused too. Letting The other side come out, i have been told i am more sensitive. Which is a good thing. But then i hear I miss the masculine side, but either way i am still the same person, i have the same feelings, wants and desires. in my mind the only things that have changed are the clothes, and i feel more whole.

[Fab Karen]

"a man comes on the tv to tell me how white my shirts could be
but he can't be a man because he does not smoke the same cigarettes as me" -Rolling STones

All these definitions are things that apply/can apply to women.

[Kelsy]

Can there be "healthy masculinity" without the feminine characteristics in a males personality?? ie, Compassion, giving, gentleness, etc. The problem we face is that gender roles have been defined ridgidly but do not reflect reality
A male without the female attributes is a brute beast, a monster and a danger to women.!

Kelsy

[Violet]

"The problem we face us that gender roles have been defined rigidly but do not reflect reality."

Ahh, Kelsy, you've really hit the nail on the head, here. I'm a GG, and I have said that I don't want to lose the 'manly' aspects of my CD boyfriend. I think the problem with that statement, and saying it so cavalierly, stems from the rigidly defined gender roles we encounter every day. Society's stereotype of men doesn't accurately reflect the range of emotions and feelings men go through, and, in fact, oppresses them by implying that men are not "real men" unless they conform to that stereotype.

When I say I don't want to lose the manly aspects of my boyfriend, I do not mean that I want my boyfriend to turn into that stereotype of the beer-drinking, sports obsessed, macho man. In fact, I don't think most men fit that stereotype, just as most women don't fit the steroetype of being gossipy, obsessed with shopping and wanting to snag a husband. I like men. I would never want to be a man (obvs; I'm a GG with no TG inclinations) but I enjoy men. I enjoy their company and I think there are many positive aspects associated with being a man.

With regards to my own relationship, I don't want to lose the man that my boyfriend is-- and that includes the part of him that feels the need to express his female side. Since I happen to be a predominantly heterosexual woman, though, I also don't want to live with someone who always presents as female. I think I would lose some (or a lot) of the physical attraction I have for him, because if I wanted to be with a woman, I would be with a woman. I don't mind my boyfriend dressing, but if it became a 24/7 thing, I am not sure I would like it. Yes, he is the same person inside, but physical attraction is a big part of a relationship and I am physically attracted to men.

For me, I think I don't want my boyfriend to turn into a sterotype of a woman, which is something I have observed in some members of the crossdressing community (no offense is meant by this statement, btw). I myself do not get giggly about shopping, nor do I spend hours and hours on my appearance. I have very little patience for that sort of thing with my GG friends, so I doubt it would be tolerable to me if my boyfriend displayed those same characteristics.

I hope this makes sense. I feel like I had more articulate thoughts about this subject when I began this post and somehow they ran away from me.

[docrobbysherry]

I think this thread and posts hits too close to home for me! While I'm completely hetero, I've never considered myself much of a "man". Too whimpy and introspective! Further proof of that, my CDing is the frosting on my masculine cake!
RS

[melissacd]

In my case, my ex wife meant:

- do not wear female clothes
- do not shave your arms, legs and chest
- do not wear makeup, wigs, high heels
- do not show an interest in woman's magazines
- do not show an interest in cross dressing in any way, shape or form

She said that she was attracted to a person who looks, smells and acts like the stereotypical view of a masculine male, leastwise that is what she told me and my crossing the culturally defined, bi-polar gender fence was something that she could not ever accept, hence why she is now my ex.

[KatieC]

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Lots of food for thought here.

-Katie

[CharleneCD]

In my wifes case she is looking for the image mostly. Many of my feminine aspects are a part of me. She just wants that masculine look thing.

[RobertaFermina]

Men do have natural roles that originate in primitive (read 'original') cultures.

A Survey of them will reveal that men tend to venture from the Village (Nest) and to hunt or, when there is competition from other villages for scarce resources, battle or plunder.

Experienced men would also train older boys in to manly traditions.

If a beast or enemy threatened the Village, the men would throw themselves into battle to drive the threat away.

Men are well suited for tasks requiring upper body strength, and thinking that is responsive to factual and rational processes. (like carrying a lady over a threshold without bashing her head against the doorjamb.)

Men are needed for sex, to "donate their sperm."

In some cultures, the man remains with the mother and child, as if they were his own little village to provide for, and defend.

The women remaining mostly in the village to nurture the children found some complementarity in relation to men, and wholeness when the relations between man and women were in balance within the village, and within the household.

Living with a degree of complementarity within a whole-seeming relationship creates the illusion that one could not be whole without the other. Actually, the relationship, as constituted, would vanish, yet not the intrinsic wholeness of either the man or woman. There are other roles and relationships available.

Still, yearning for that easily identified sense of wholeness may cause a woman to "want her man." Hopefully she can recognize that she is whole without the man, yet can participate in a partnership that is greater than the sum if its parts with another person...and there are archetypal (read "commonly understood") formulas for doing this with a man.

Why not? as long as he is a "mensch" and not a jerk ?


:rose: Man-Positive :rose:

[shirley1]

"The problem we face us that gender roles have been defined rigidly but do not reflect reality."

Ahh, Kelsy, you've really hit the nail on the head, here. I'm a GG, and I have said that I don't want to lose the 'manly' aspects of my CD boyfriend. I think the problem with that statement, and saying it so cavalierly, stems from the rigidly defined gender roles we encounter every day. Society's stereotype of men doesn't accurately reflect the range of emotions and feelings men go through, and, in fact, oppresses them by implying that men are not "real men" unless they conform to that stereotype.

When I say I don't want to lose the manly aspects of my boyfriend, I do not mean that I want my boyfriend to turn into that stereotype of the beer-drinking, sports obsessed, macho man. In fact, I don't think most men fit that stereotype, just as most women don't fit the steroetype of being gossipy, obsessed with shopping and wanting to snag a husband. I like men. I would never want to be a man (obvs; I'm a GG with no TG inclinations) but I enjoy men. I enjoy their company and I think there are many positive aspects associated with being a man.

With regards to my own relationship, I don't want to lose the man that my boyfriend is-- and that includes the part of him that feels the need to express his female side. Since I happen to be a predominantly heterosexual woman, though, I also don't want to live with someone who always presents as female. I think I would lose some (or a lot) of the physical attraction I have for him, because if I wanted to be with a woman, I would be with a woman. I don't mind my boyfriend dressing, but if it became a 24/7 thing, I am not sure I would like it. Yes, he is the same person inside, but physical attraction is a big part of a relationship and I am physically attracted to men.

For me, I think I don't want my boyfriend to turn into a sterotype of a woman, which is something I have observed in some members of the crossdressing community (no offense is meant by this statement, btw). I myself do not get giggly about shopping, nor do I spend hours and hours on my appearance. I have very little patience for that sort of thing with my GG friends, so I doubt it would be tolerable to me if my boyfriend displayed those same characteristics.

I hope this makes sense. I feel like I had more articulate thoughts about this subject when I began this post and somehow they ran away from me.

i think the problem men have is they dont know where they stand anymore - as a cder i would have said being in touch with your female side is bound to involve becoming more interested in womens clothes makeup ect - but it seems to me when women say they want a guy more in touch they just mean more understanding of their needs too take an interest in what their interested in - take more of an active role in the kids (changing dypers feeding babies ect) showing a bit more emotion but not as much as women do ie dont cry too easily like some women do only if theres a good reason to - is it any wonder men dont know where they are - women dont have to think about these things they just live their lives naturally these days without worrying about what society thinks they should be doing - you cant have it both ways men either are able to express themselves in the same way as women do or not at all !

[Carin]

Great post btw., and yes it struck a cord for me. I have similar feelings about "men" and I have no clue why. But anyway...

There is a difference between a GG saying she "wants a man' and saying she "wants her man". The former refers to some cultural stereotypical concept. The latter refers to the person she married.

Speaking for myself, I have a gender dial in terms of presentation. I can adjust the knob up or down depending on my mood. Just like an old radio with a tuning knob, there is a point on the dial where my SO feels that I have 'tuned out' of the station she married into. She can deal with that for short periods of time, but most of the time I need to dial it back a notch.

It is not necessarily about masculinity. I don't feel more masculine one way or the other and I am not sure that her issue is masculinity either. I suspect it is more about personal identity.

[Brenda1423]

Lots of good points here. The big difference I see is that a woman can dress in men's clothes and still be considered a woman. When a man does, he's looked at as something strange. If we were allowed to dress as we wanted, we would be seen as a man, dressed either way. If my wife wears all men's clothes and goes out, no one considers her strange.

[Rachel Morley]

So what is healthy masculinity? What *is* good about being male, that's not traits that the majority of women also have?
Nothing really .... good traits that are generally considered more masculine, like being strong, decisive, assertive, courageous, a protector etc are good ... but then they are equally good in a woman. Similarly, traits that are considered more feminine like caring, empathy, nurturing, sensitivity, are also good in a man. There's only good traits ... be they masculine or feminine. Hopefully a "well rounded person" has both in them. :2c:

[Jamie001]

There is no such thing as "healthy masculinity". That is an oxymoron.

[KatieC]

There is a difference between a GG saying she "wants a man' and saying she "wants her man". The former refers to some cultural stereotypical concept. The latter refers to the person she married.
Very, very important distinction now that you've brought it to my attention. Thank you!


Nothing really .... good traits that are generally considered more masculine, like being strong, decisive, assertive, courageous, a protector etc are good ... but then they are equally good in a woman. Similarly, traits that are considered more feminine like caring, empathy, nurturing, sensitivity, are also good in a man. There's only good traits ... be they masculine or feminine. Hopefully a "well rounded person" has both in them.
Good point, thank you.

:drink: Here's to developing good traits and trying to overcome the bad . . . regardless of whether the traits are considered "masculine" or "feminine" by our far-too-gender-binary culture.