Are You a Trans Man/Woman or Simply You?

[CaptLex]

I've been thinking about some of the responses on another thread and now I'm curious . . . do you consider yourself transsexual (transman/transwoman) or do you consider yourself simply a man or woman (whichever you feel you should have been born as)? In case it's not clear, this question is for those who have, will, are in the process of, or wish they could transition. :happy:

Since I started it, I'll answer my own question (and please don't think there's a right answer - whatever is right for you). I consider myself a transman, not just a man, but for me "transman" is a subset of "man" or a different type of man, not a completely different animal. I feel this way because I wasn't raised male - my experiences and socialization as a female have shaped me into a person generally very different from men that were raised male. So, this gives me a different perspective from most guys. While I wish I had been born a genetic male (would have saved a lot of pain and frustration), I'm also grateful to have experienced things most men will never know. :hp:

How about you? :raisedeyebrow:

[Syr_SwitchyGQ]

Not to be difficult (please don't smack me :p) but I think the title asks a different question from the post. To answer your posted question, I would say that I will probably always identify as a transman (as opposed to just a regular old guy) because as fully or as little as I transition, I will be different than GMs. I spent so many years as "her" that I think I have insights into the world of women that GMs can't even comprehend. Thus, as much of a guy as I am, I will always be a transguy, not just a regular guy.

The title question to me sounds almost like you're asking "Are you a Transsexual?" >>i.e. - is that "who" you are, or are you just you, regardless of your gender. To put it more clearly, it almost sounds as if you're asking whether or not we make transsexual our defining characteristic, or if it's just one more facet to our greater personality. Which, in my case, I try for the latter. I may sometimes not succeed (once you've told someone you want a sex change, that's kind of the first thing they usually think of when they think of you) but I really do try to be a musician, a writer, a friend, a son, etc. before that.

o.O Hopefully that made sense. Good question. :happy:

[GypsyKaren]

I used to consider myself a transsexual woman, but I only think of myself as a woman now.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Kieron Andrew]

Transman i am, Transman i'll always be....

I have never liked the word Transsexual, cos it infers my gender issues take on a sexual aspect, they do not!

[DanielMacBride]

Transman i am, Transman i'll always be....

:yt: I also like Jade Starr's term, "Gender Optimized" - and I often say that I am happy to identify as "transgender" because that to Me implies that I have transcended My gender and am "better" than just a GM or a GG because I have aspects of all genders ;)

Daniel

[Ms. Donna]

Some transpeople are transsexual - some aren't.

Some transpeople will transition - some transsexuals won't.

For me, trans is not something I am, but a way I experience the world - and more importantly myself in it world. It is a part of me which I cannot escape. No matter what I do or where I go, it will always influence my interpretation of the world. To 'be' trans means that one cannot see things as other see them.

I'm a transperson - neither man nor woman are an accurate description - neither will ever truly 'fit' the person I am. So the simple answer: I'm simply me.

Which, in reality, is anything (http://wanderingaloud.wordpress.com/2007/04/02/plain-and-simple-it-aint/) but simple...

Regards,
Donna

[Anna the Dub]

Interesting question. I suppose that I consider myself a transwoman, for the moment anyway, as I have a body shape and appearance which is in flux for now. However, I think that when my outward appearance is in sync with the rest of me, I will consider myself as a woman.

[MJ]

good question thank you. trans woman for me . i wish i was born a woman but then in my life's journey i would never have become the person i am now .
it's our life's journey what makes us who we are . shapes us molds us makes us understand and grow

[Kate Simmons]

You can take the "trans" out of transpeople but you can't take out the people. The way I look at it, everyone, including myself, is simply a person. PEOPLE are important and PEOPLE make the difference but, then again, I'm a "people" person. Doesn't get any better than that Lex.;):happy:

[Nicki B]

I've always thought the term 'transsexual' only has any real use as an indicator for those who require intervention from the medical profession.

Unfortunately it also has connotations of exclusivity, which damage us all..

[Valeria]

I identify as a woman. If I need to provide more detail, I'll describe myself as lesbian, or a queer femme, or a dyke, or... well, there's no shortage of labels. But I pretty much only use the phrase "trans woman" to describe myself online in trans forums. Even then, I say "trans woman" rather than "transwoman", because I view trans as an adjective clarifying my route to womanhood, not a seperate noun.

For me, the issue is that I simply don't identify as a transsexual, and I don't view being trans as a core part of my identity. Unlike being lesbian, it's not who I am and it doesn't inform my daily actions.

I wasn't raised female, but I've identified as female for decades, and I've never really identified as male as an adult. I started dating as a girl as a teenager, and I've been in a monogamous relationship with a lesbian woman for two decades.

Granted, I wasn't exactly raised as a girl (though it turns out that I did spend more time at Brownie meetings than my partner did :p ). But the life experiences of women and girls vary widely anyway. A girl raised in a worn-torn third world country under Sharia judicial rule is going to have a radically different childhood existence than a typical middle-class American girl - the difference between those two women's socialization will dwarf the differences between mine and that same American girl. My partner, because she was lesbian (and because of some other factors I'd rather not divulge) had a very atypical adolescence - she relates better to my childhood than she does to that of most women we know.

The fact is that (constant stereotypes not withstanding), men and women aren't that different. I have a psych text book that mocks the populist "men are from Mars and women are from Venus" concept, saying that it would be more accurate to say that "men are from North Dakota and women are from South Dakota". With only a couple of exceptions, in most mental characteristics, even when men and women statistically differ the overlap is huge. For instance, in a typical characteristic that most people would consider a "male attribute", probably 45% of women possess that attribute to a greater degree than the average man. Sex drive is one of the few exceptions, btw - testosterone takes care of that, as I believe the good Captain can attest.

Psychologists have grouped together certain character traits (such as being assertive or empathetic) and characterized them as being "masculine" or "feminine" personality traits (I'm skipping the technical jargon). Socialization does play a large role in the development of these traits (though genetics also plays a small role). Still, studies have found that while 50% of males are strong in the "masculine" set of traits exclusively, 35% of males are strong in "masculine" and "feminine" traits and 5 - 10% are strong in the "feminine" traits exclusively (the rest just suck at everything). Women have the exact same proportions, in reverse. IOW, 5 to 10% of females have a "classic male" personality, and 5 to 10% of males have a "classic female" personality. 35% of people (male or female) have androgynous personalities (these people tend to make the best relationship partners, btw).

I understand that growing up in a patriarchal society has an impact, as does the social and biological implications of being a fertile female. But (as has often been noted), not all woman are fertile and how patriarchal society is varies widely too. My mother was a staunch feminist (she was a union steward in a male-dominated profession back in the sixties and seventies), whereas my dad retired early and became a house husband. My life partner (a forty year old woman) has never used any form of birth control in her life, yet she's never engaged in a sex act that carried even a theoretical chance of her getting pregnant. She also didn't experience menarche until she was in college. Her being a late-blooming life-long lesbian that was a tom-boy as a child doesn't diminish her womanhood one iota, although it did result in her not going to her prom and in her being treated horribly as a teenager.

Another thing is, as more time passes with my being fully assimilated as a woman, my memory of when I was "not" a girl gets fuzzier. I mean, I'm not crazy and I know I wasn't always presenting as female. But I genuinely see myself in my memories as female. I no longer clearly remember my "male" appearance. And I actually have to concentrate to remember if I was presenting as male or female for some random event from many years ago (and I may not always remember accurately).

So while I've encountered the "socialization as a child" argument frequently (particulary in certain feminist and lesbian circles), I just don't find it all that persuasive. Life is long and complicated, and I don't choose to define myself primarily by the first decade or so.

[Note: I'm not saying that anyone else is wrong in their perspective. I'm just explaining my POV. I will admit that the childhood argument tends to trigger me a bit, since that's been the justification given for excluding trans women from MWMF and other places (lesbian meetings in Australia and a rape crisis center in Canada come to mind).

Also, I wonder if my recent life experience - where none of my classmates, professors, or coworkers know my past, where I'm anatomically "done", where even some of my medical providers think I'm a natal female, and where I haven't been called by a masculine pronoun or title (in person or on the phone) in years makes a difference. It's a lot easier to say "it's not really a major part of my daily life" when I never receive any daily reminders of my past. I mean no disrespect towards others at differing points in transition with such a thought.]

[Tristan]

I guess technically I'm a transsexual or a work in progress on being one, but I hate the word. I don't think I can consider myself a man other then a transman because to me there is a distinction. But the trans is a private part of me, I don't owe the world that part of who I am. As time goes forward I think of it as more and more of my secret. Over all when I come out to people I generally say I'm trans gender, or I have gender identity disorder.

[Sharon]

I view myself as a woman -- nothing more nor less. It is only reality and the occasional need to describe myself to others that I need to clarify that I am a transgendered woman.

[Cai]

I like thinking of myself as a trans person. Being born female is an integral part of my identity, just as being mentally male is an integral part of my identity.

I have many experiences that are unique to women, and experiences that are unique to trans people. If I gave any of those up, I wouldn't be me. For example, I attend an amazing women's college. I have no intention of lying, hiding, or being ashamed of going here - this place is wonderful. People will know I attended college as mostly female, and I'm okay with that.

It helps that I know where I stand on things that matter to me. I know that I wouldn't emotionally scar any children that I might adopt in the future. I know that God still loves me. I know that I'm still a good person. I can be all of those things, as a trans man. And since that's who I am, I'll stay that way.

[Mariah]

Simple female here.


keris

[Lisa Golightly]

I'm just a Lisa.

[DeniseK]

I identify as a woman..............

Very good post. :love:

[Dawn D.]

My mind is female with male learned traits. My mind wants my body transformed to show as female. Hope to begin the transition soon to becomed transformed. Yeah......I like the term "Transformed". But , will I be a transformed female or a transformed male. Hhhmmmm, chicken or egg thing I guess.



Dawn

[CaptLex]

Thanks everyone - all excellent responses. I hope there will be more. :happy:

Tobias, I agree the title sucks - couldn't come up with something that better explains it without being too long, but I'm open to suggestions. :thinking:

Kehleyr, I totally agree that there really aren't many differences between us . . . and I like the North Dakota, South Dakota reference. :thumbsup:

Cai, I swear sometimes you and I must share a brain (are you scared now?). :heehee:

[ZenFrost]

Tobias, I agree the title sucks - couldn't come up with something that better explains it without being too long, but I'm open to suggestions. :thinking:

How about "Are you Transexual or just Sexual?" :heehee:

:slap: Ow! Okay, sorry. :o


So my answer is going to be... both. I'm a man and a transman. I've had nearly two decades of experience as a woman and that can't be erased, but I fell like I am, and always have been, a man. Even if I didn't realize it for a long time and my body still isn't right. It's hard to pick one or the other, I really feel as though I'm both. :idontknow: I guess that wasn't a very good answer, but it's all I can say really.

[Cai]

Cai, I swear sometimes you and I must share a brain (are you scared now?). :heehee:

Couldn't think of a better guy to share with. :lovestruck::p

[melissaK]

Cripes. Read the posts. Thought. Re-read the posts. My head hurts.

I'd like to be physically transistioned - but I'm not, and I don't think I will ever be. But I am transitioned in my heart, and really have always been. Its rather like my life has been a journey to explain myself to myself.

I can tell you my grade school was about learning to be the boy I outwardly looked to be. I didn't want to be a boy, but no one was taking no for an answer. Had plenty of help - teachers, other boys, parents, even most of the girls recognized I wasn't one of them and didn't want me. So, I learned to be a boy. I don't know how this fits in with Kehleyr's discussion of socialization of childhood.

And later when I was on my own facing life with freedom to drift from childhood training - I was not capable of accepting what my inner self was saying. I lived a life rife with untreated depression, escapist drugs, and dissociative blackouts. Still I stuck to the script of my teachers and parents - you're a man do this, now do this, now do this.

Some internal stability came in a relationship with a woman who was in many ways my gender opposite. In her own state of denial - she was struggling to be a woman when she always wanted to be a man. We passed 15 years of time without really getting it that our repressed needs were complementing each other - I longing to fill a woman's role, she longong to fill a mans', we shaped a relationship that looked fairly normal on the outside, but wasn't.

And then the next years on my own were learning the difference between what I learned to do, and what I was. Being a man has been more a role for me than not. Like Kehleyr says, men or women, we have overlapping traits.

I still have a male body, a male job, a male role I play. But I am not that. I am a transwoman for those who care to learn about "me" and who I trust to tell. And I have embarked on some HRT this last 18 months and am OK with myself, maybe for the first time in my life since grade school when it all began. I remain in love with my wife who likes my overall gentleness and I hers. Maybe, definitionally I am more "me" than "trans" anything.

Hugs,
'lissa

[kerrianna]

:undecided hmmm.... well, I should preface this by saying what I REALLY believe, at my core,...is that I have no idea 'what' I exactly am, but I have faith that at some moment I will KNOW with my soul my place in the universe. I doubt I can conceive of the truth of it right now, in this mortal shell, but I have some hints and I'm willing to be patient and let it unfold as it should.

Having gotten all cosmic on you, I will now backtrack to 21st century Earth, January 27th, 2008, to be precise.

I indentify to other people as being transgendered. It makes it easier for them to know what's going on... that I feel Female-Spirited in a male body and with an upbringing treated as male. The trans part I could really apply to all of my life...I am in transition, always have been, always will be. Oops, getting cosmic again.

Specifically related to gender, like I said I identify as female spirited (ie most of my mental, emotional, psychic, spiritual and sexual tendancies feel 'right' as being female - although I can't say for sure what 'feeling female' is... it just seems to be the best description), but because I was raised as male and treated as male, and accepted much of my life as being male, even if not 'successfully male', I do accept that part of my reality is as transgendered.

So in answer to your question Lex....both. But the identity comes first and thus leads to the state of 'transness'.

On a practical level, I think I know what you might be asking Lex. Some gender variant people (oh, another label), don't self describe as being trans because they operate from that starting point of being wholly identified as male or female, even if their bodies don't match. The state of transness is an aberration that will be gone once, or if, they transition. I'm not sure I believe you have to transition to remove that 'state of transness' if you do identify as your gender first... but I guess you do have to keep it handy as a 'calling card' to the rest of the world when you are trying to show who you really are.

Did any of that make sense? I'm not sure my brain is on solid footing right now. Not that it ever is lol. :p

[Kate Simmons]

It would all be so much easier if we did not "have" to be one or the other. Unfortunately, the nature of three dimensional existence dictates that we fit into one mode or the other for the sake of simplicity and continuity. Problem is, many of us do not accept that and know who we really are and what our feelings are and how we look at things. Therein lies the real challenge. Do we simply accept what we have been dealt in a physical way or prove who we are in a real way? If we get down to true feelings, we already know the answer and it's a "no brainer". Is our individuality worth the effort? Absolutely, no "ifs, ands or buts".:happy:

[Ashly]

I was diagnosed transsexual years ago..but there was family, job, life and myself. For some reason I thought it is not worth it to go to soo many troubles to maybe become what I should have been in the 1st place. Of course, I was a coward too...who has the guts to start all over again at age 45 ?!

After so many years I found some peace in just being me..a person between 2 gender..is it easy?..guess not

[Teresa Amina]

If we take the trans part to mean "in between" or "transiting" I'm definitely there. Always Me, I'm now in the not-quite-man but not-yet-woman phase of the process. I get far more Odd Looks in guy mode now than I do when dressed properly :D Lots of fun...

[Victoria Anne]

Capt. this is a wonderful post and comes at a time when I have been questioning my feelings . Reading the responses has given me some what of a better understanding of what I feel . I am not sure yet where I fit on the "scale" Transgender is afterall a largely umbrella term . I am Viccy but also Tim , I love my wife and cherish evry moment with her and would not sacrafice that for anything. I have in the past described myself as transgender but wonder if transsexual does not describe me better yet I do not plan to transition.
I wear only male shirts at work and all else is female this is a must for to come out at work would be to end my career and at 47 I'm to old to start that over. I do feel more woman than anything and that is how I want to spend my life and I do have my wife's support in that. I do agree with Daniel that the Trans "sexual" does imply that it is a sexual thing. I still find that my only awnser is that I am me , I am who I am for good or bad , right or wrong , with hopes of developing some breasts and hips . I will always long to be wholely female but will remain as I am ... Victoria Anne

[Cara Allen]

I cannot speak for the transmen that I know, but they all seem very comfortable with who they are. My point is, that I consider them men. As for me, I consider myself transsexual female. As I am just getting started, I don't have enough markers to move on yet. I hope that when I do, I can adjust and just consider myself female, Lex.

[CaptLex]

How about "Are you Transexual or just Sexual?" :heehee:

:slap: Ow! Okay, sorry. :o
Nah I wouldn't slap you for that . . . but only 'cause I like you. :kiss:


So my answer is going to be... both. I'm a man and a transman. I've had nearly two decades of experience as a woman and that can't be erased, but I fell like I am, and always have been, a man. Even if I didn't realize it for a long time and my body still isn't right. It's hard to pick one or the other, I really feel as though I'm both. :idontknow: I guess that wasn't a very good answer, but it's all I can say really.
There's nothing wrong with that answer - it's pretty much what I said, I'm both ('cause they're not two different things to me). :happy:

As a follow-up question, if I may: for those that feel they have moved on (or will move on) from "trans" anything to man or woman, is this due to the "deconstructing" thing that was discussed in another thread? In other words, have you gotten rid of (or do you think you will get rid of) all the mental stuff that might make one "behave" (that's probably not the right word, but I can't think of a better one right now) as your birth sex? Did I ask that right? :thinking: If not, I can try and clarify . . . I think. :blink:

[Kieron Andrew]

i dunno what you just said Lex:heehee:, but the short of it for me is at this moment in time i am proud to be a transman, have always been and as far as i know will always be proud of that fact so the label Transman will never bother me, its who i am...whether that will change and i want to only be seen as a man who knows?

[Adam]

This is my view only but i feel atm i am a transman as in a man in transtion but i feel i am getting closer to just feeling im a man i no that before i can feel that way about myself i would want chest op and histo.

But the word transman feels right for me as much as the word man does i never say im a transexul because its not how i like to talk about who i am

boy hope that makes sence lol

[Kate Simmons]

I'm with Kieron Hon. All I know is I'm proud that you are proud you are transmen and my friends.:happy:

[CaptLex]

i dunno what you just said Lex:heehee:,
Not sure what I said either. :p Just kidding . . . I know I talk in a roundabout way sometimes and don't have your (and Sal's) knack for getting to the point (I think I need more rum). What I meant is whether anyone here feels that in order to move on from "trans" anything to simply man or woman they have to (or have had to) do away with any socialization that doesn't go with their true gender. Is that better? :happy:

It seems that many of the responses indicate that once one is done transitioning (whenever that is), then they no longer feel "trans". So I'm curious whether that's mostly the physical transition, the mental transition, the social transition, or maybe all of the above? It's more than just changing one's body, right? :idontknow:

Although I'm not really interested in changing from "transman" to simply "man", because my definition is different (at least right now), for someone like me who is not able to completely change the physical, the full transition can't involve simply that. Savvy? :raisedeyebrow:

Did I hurt your head, K? :itsok:

P.S. I changed the title a bit - is that any better, Tobias?

[Kieron Andrew]

Did I hurt your head, K? :itsok:

yes!! wheres the tequila....ok for me no i wont feel im no longer Trans, is that what you were looking for :heehee:

[Sharon]

It seems that many of the responses indicate that once one is done transitioning (whenever that is), then they no longer feel "trans". So I'm curious whether that's mostly the physical transition, the mental transition, the social transition, or maybe all of the above? It's more than just changing one's body, right? :idontknow:


For me, it's more just a state of being -- in that I perceive myself as a female. The body itself is still evolving, but the mind, which is much more important(IMO), is already there.


....have you gotten rid of (or do you think you will get rid of) all the mental stuff that might make one "behave" (that's probably not the right word, but I can't think of a better one right now) as your birth sex?

I don't really worry about behavior -- I am what I am, and I'm comfortable with it.

[Kate Simmons]

I really don't know if there is a cut off point Lex. Many of my TS friends try to disappear after transition, some have no intention of doing that. I think it has more to do with each person, as we are all constantly evolving and growing as people. It never ends really from a person perspective no matter who we are. I never consider them this or that really, just my friends but I'm happy to treat them as they wish.:happy:

[Scotty]

Two Spirits.

I'm just me, half and half.

[Wendi {LI NY}]

Well for starters ,I hate labels. I feel they are only for UNIONS . :Angry3:
I guess for the rest of the population ,I am a women inside ,but transgender on the outside > I do dislike the word transsexual for there is nothing sexual about this ! I feel I will always have the male side ,but imbrace the female side more. I really am two spirited like my american Indian heritage.We see both side of the gender spectum and live in the gender of our choice.
hugs,Wendi

[kerrianna]

Ironically, Lex, I think transitioning does in most cases remove the trans out of people's lives, except in the sense of origin. I mean, that's the whole point of it isn't it? To live FULLY as a male or female.

Ahhh, except, that might depend on what you mean by 'transitioning'. I'm applying the common usage, that of full immersion into the other gender, which usually does involve the body changes.

However, one can live full time without doing the body change, if it works for them, and I also consider that a state of 'transitioning'. But I have a feeling that without such a radical and complete change of your body, you might still sense your 'transness' more.

I'm only speculating, not having travelled either path.

I know that many transitioned people (in the full body change sense) do still use the terms transman and transwoman to describe themselves, but I suspect that may be mainly to other transgendered people so they know that they have a connection. For instance the contact person I talked to at the gender unit eventually indentified himself to me as a fully transitioned transman. (I wouldn't have guessed on the phone). I'm sure he did that to let me know he understood where I was coming from, and I doubt he goes around saying "Hi! I'm a transman!" to most people. So in that sense, he retains the historical aspect of it because it's useful to remember where he came from. But otherwise, I bet he thinks of himself as all guy baby! Well, he did before probably....but there's less trans-stuff in the way now. Savvy? :happy:

[Felix]

Ok my speck on me....

You know I don't like labels but for purposes of this discussion they are useful. This is how I describe myself now on all boards I go on, ' I am a Queer Lesbian who sits somewhere on the Transgendered spectrum.' I have realized over the last few weeks that I can no longer run from myself and that life has a funny way of catching up with ya. I am embracing this fact now and am proud of who I am. I will always have the unique ability of being able to relate to women cos I have been brought up as one and have experiences that are women only experiences that I will always cherish and I never want to loose that. I don't think I will because I feel like ya know that spiritually I am a woman and its whats going on in my brain that is masculine or male. So yeah I am a trans person and that encompasses everything I am as a human being. Hope this is ok xx Felix :hugs:

[SirTrey]

I know exactly what you are saying, Lex, as usual....In one month, I begin the process of physically transitioning....That WILL make Me a man, but a man with a twist....1) because some changes can or will never happen, though most will...and 2) I was socially conditioned and lived, albeit uncomfortably, in the other gender's world and in a body that never matched who I am on the inside....Therefore, I am a transman....Not a woman, by any means....a transman because I am a man who has transitioned on the inside already, and is going to transition physically now....a transitioned man....a transman....which, coincidentally, in some ways is an advantage, for all the pain and misery it has caused....as a transman, I will be able to live My maleness, be Myself....but will never lose the unique perspective that living in the other gender's world have given Me....which, in some ways, will probably make Me a better man....and a more well rounded person.....I did NOT feel this way at all until I was given the green light for the T, btw...I feel it now, because I know that I am on My way...that I will soon be able to walk down the street and be seen as Trey...the person I really am....for Me, the bottom stuff is less of an issue than the life issues are....and anyone I would be intimate with would obviously know that I am a transman....so I can never lose that distinction in that way, either...It will follow Me throughout the rest of My life....but transman isn't woman....not at all....and I am gifting Myself with total piece of mind going into this transition....knowing I AM a transman and embracing THAT...and all the maleness that that will entail....YAY!! **Trey**

[Felix]

I think your feelings are definitely strong on this Trey. I've been sitting reading and reading what ya put in last few lines. 'But a trans man is not a woman....not at all' I don't know why but I felt a sadness every time I read it. For me all those things you talked about that will always follow you around cos thats what ya have experienced in other genders and you said they will make ya a better man, I agree with you. I don't think because you have them it makes you less of a man either. I don't feel that my female spirit makes me less of a trans man because my masulinities are strong. I embrace that part of me also and I think also that it makes me a more rounded person. This is just a personal view Hun so don't take me wrong. I guess I just felt confused between the top half of ya post and the end. Maybe this is what comes of me being queer xx Felix :hugs:

[SirTrey]

I guess I just felt confused between the top half of ya post and the end.
Hey Felix....I understand what you're saying, but to clarify...what I am saying, is, I identify as a transman because no matter what My future, I HAVE experienced life living in, though not embracing or actually BEING, in the true sense, the other gender...and I take that forward with Me as it IS My life experience....but I have always been and will always BE a man....it's why I say a man with a twist....it's not confusing at all....physical transition will fix, to the best extent it can, what I consider to be a mistake....but that life experience goes forward with Me....it didn't make Me a woman when I was living as one, so I certainly won't be one going forward...but I do take a unique life experience and a certain insight with Me....and I have two choices...I can do My best to make that a good and positive thing, or I can let it drive Me crazy for the rest of My life...I choose to view it as good...because that's better for ME. And, it will make the physical transiton something I can more fully embrace and enjoy....Hope that clears it up...**Trey** :)

[helenr]

I have grown to view myself as agendered--not male, not female. for me, spiro, has brought about this change. I have never felt 'one of the guys' as a male growing up-never popular as some guys are. Women naturally wouldn't accept 'a penis' among their inner circle. I have been frustrated. I always just considered myself a frustrated transvestite, with some transgender inklings the past decade. I would like to have an orchi-so I could rid myself of unwanted appendages, and to not need spiro-but until that can occur--not so easy to find an MD to help out without a great deal of costly counseling--I find a true calm as I no longer have sexual thoughts permeating my being. I crossdress underneath, but I don't have any burning wish to go through costly SRS at my age 61, I have family responsibilities that won't work well with that, and I find that spiro has been a 'miracle drug' for me. I like everybody, but just don't want to be in either gender for now. Yes, it would be a dream come true to be a pretty young woman, but many have this dream and at 61 I try not to let daydreaming interfere with daily living. best to all, helenr

[Felix]

Thanx Trey xx Felix :hugs:

[Sejd]

I am "Two Spirit" and I refuse to accept the western medical terms for my being special. I don't feel, and have never felt the need to change physical gender, but at the same time I do identify as a female. In western medicine, this is seen as a conflict and as an abnormality. We get the label: Gender Dysphoria. I don't agree. I am fully in harmony being who I am . I am a person who has been gifted with the insight of two genders! How amazing. I want to put acceptance for ourselves where the medical industry tries to create abnormality and confusion. We, in my mind, are born perfect and we are aloud to celebrate our uniqueness.

[surabhi singh]

iam simply a girl with no thrill or frills , who is most looking to get out from her male body which is almost biggest lie always when looked upon ...

[annekathleen]

No matter what type of clothing that I am wearing,
My body parts don't change!
I still have guy parts down there.
Do my sexual desires change?
Dressed as a man, I consider myself "bi"
Dressed as a woman, I consider myself "bi"
Stark naked.....um, yep,....still "bi"

[CaptLex]

And with that last post I can see that this thread has veered totally off track. :confused: It was intended for those who consider themselves more than crossdressers, and specifically for those who have a desire (even a little one or one they can't accomplish) to transition. I don't recall asking about sexual orientation or desire.

The point was to find out how many - before, during or after transition - consider themselves male or female as opposed to trans male or female. But it doesn't matter, really. There have been many wonderful responses from all walks of life, points of view and experiences. Thank you all.

[Nicki B]

The point was to find out how many - before, during or after transition - consider themselves male or female as opposed to trans male or female. But it doesn't matter, really. There have been many wonderful responses from all walks of life, points of view and experiences. Thank you all.

Lex - aren't you really asking 'who thinks they fit the binary man/woman' thing? :hmmm:

[CaptLex]

Lex - aren't you really asking 'who thinks they fit the binary man/woman' thing? :hmmm:

No, that's not really it, Nicki. The thread came about because I noticed some people say, "I'm a woman, not a transwoman" and I know I actually prefer to say I'm a transman (a particular type of man, as I see it), rather than simply a man. So I was curious how many feel the one way and how many feel the other (or another way entirely) - and why.

[Nicki B]

No, that's not really it, Nicki. The thread came about because I noticed some people say, "I'm a woman, not a transwoman"

That's what I meant - some people are only really comfortable with there being either/or, only two sexes..

That idea of the binary is rooted very deeply in our culture?

[fancy nancy]

I have always felt like I had woman instincts since I was a kid .Being dressed in women's clothing makes me feel complete.

[CaptLex]

That's what I meant - some people are only really comfortable with there being either/or, only two sexes..

That idea of the binary is rooted very deeply in our culture?
And I agree with you, but I guess I'm not explaining it well. I'm not one of those people. I'm not saying that everyone has to pick a side and stick to it, but the question is mainly for those who at least lean more to one side than the other. Did I lose you? :raisedeyebrow: Kieron will tell you, I do that too well. :p

[Kieron Andrew]

Did I lose you? :raisedeyebrow: Kieron will tell you, I do that too well. :p

LOL you are both singing the same song in my opinion, just explaining it different (thank god i speak english and american)

[Katie Ashe]

I knew age age 4 something was wrong, I acted like a girl wanted to be like a girl and do girl things. I was raised as a boy, cause I had a penis. It's would save me too a bunch of trouble haven been born girl. But I being raised as boy, I have the advangtage, I think, over girls simply cause I was shown how to be self reliant and be on my own. Not saying girls aren't but most are raise to be baby makers and or dependent one way or another. I can fix my own car, change my own tires even after put on with air tools. What ever, I'll still and always will be a MTF cause I was not raised in the social environment need to fit/blend in. I have to try hard and some times it seems hopeless, I have to learn what girls already know, same with you. That is why this site is so important, to help share stories and learn. My grandpop for years before he died always said, "You will learn something everyday no matter how small."
Sorry If I got off track.:tongueout

[Valeria]

I knew age age 4 something was wrong, I acted like a girl wanted to be like a girl and do girl things. I was raised as a boy, cause I had a penis. It's would save me too a bunch of trouble haven been born girl. But I being raised as boy, I have the advangtage, I think, over girls simply cause I was shown how to be self reliant and be on my own. Not saying girls aren't but most are raise to be baby makers and or dependent one way or another. I can fix my own car, change my own tires even after put on with air tools.
:sad:

I couldn't fix my car if my life depended on it, but that doesn't mean that I'm not self reliant in many other respects. Few people can do everything useful or required in our complicated society.

My life partner is much more proficient with tools than I am, and she's "female at birth". She can make furniture and stuff like that. She still can't fix our cars. When we need help with our cars, my sister's husband comes over. If we need help with plumbing, her step-dad lends a hand. However, if either of them has a computer or tech gadget problem, they'll come to us for help. And we can both drive a manual transmission car as effortlessly as breathing.

None of this stuff has anything to do with being born or raised one sex or the other, IMO. And I'm not sure there's even such a thing as "girl things". I mean, we kinda like shopping for clothes, but we get bored easily if we aren't finding what we want (and we're very particular at times). Neither of us wears makeup regularly. We both like computer games (though she plays more than I do). We both love our baby girl, and spend as much time with her as we can.

I believe I have a natural gender, and I'm much happier and comfortable living as a female. But my gender isn't defined by what I can do, by what I enjoy doing, or by what I was allowed or encouraged to do decades ago.

[Cai]

I believe I have a natural gender, and I'm much happier and comfortable living as a female. But my gender isn't defined by what I can do, by what I enjoy doing, or by what I was allowed or encouraged to do decades ago.

Absolutely true. All the women on my campus, studying biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics, and computer science - are they any less female for being analytical and scientific? Of course not.

Being yourself is about what you can do, it's about who you are.

[Leo Lane]

My nickname here is the name of a character in Mary Renault's novel The Friendly Young Ladies, a young woman who pretty much lives as a man most of the time. Renault makes it clear that she (I use the female pronoun for her because Renault uses it) has a 'male' side and a 'female' side. Leo's friend Joe writes to her: "There are two people in you. One of them I have known much longer than the other...I can't tell how much he means to you. Perhaps, ultimately, he is you, and has the immortal part of you in his keeping." I don't believe that there is an immortal part of anybody, but that is how I feel about myself: that my 'being trans' is my having both a male and female side, but that ultimately the male in me -- not transmale, just male -- is I. I am he.

[Perrinielle]

I am a woman !!


I am a woman !!

I am a woman !!

I am a woman !!


It just took me forever to figure that out. :happy: :happy:

[suzi_cd]

Its a good question.

Am I a woman trapped in a man's body? No
Am I a man in a man's body? No

I'm me in a man's body. Now if the question is then is the man's body the right one for me then I have to say I dont really know!

[Stephanie Anne]

Let me first say that anyone who has an avatar of Eddie Izzard should not need to worry about silly labels, they are great in my book ;)

Second I myself just hate these labels we paste all over ourselves.

I identify as a woman but pass as a man. I am learning first to live with the fact I got robbed of womanhood at birth and am working on being comfortable in my slow and in no rush transition.

[KrazyKat]

Lex, Thanks for asking how I feel!! Wonderful!

I think of myself, now that I have shared Many's feelings about transgender and cisgender topics for 3 years, as a label, "Androgynous".

I could have been blessed with either gender parts, and I think I would be ok with that. The only thing that bothers me about having physical women's "parts", is when I'm told(and implied) I can't do something because "You're a girl!".:sad: Or, I am expected and to feel, act, and think a certain way, because, "You're a woman!!". Usually I have the capacity to do things of either gender's socially identified characteristics. I thank my partner for helping me to understand and forgive myself! Now I enjoy my life!!:hugs:

It helps me heal when I see the pain of others: when you don't feel like you fit "in"!!:(

The best part is celebrating with your Newfound Family: where you do fit "IN"!!!!:bg:

[suzi_cd]

Lex, Thanks for asking how I feel!! Wonderful!

I think of myself, now that I have shared Many's feelings about transgender and cisgender topics for 3 years, as a label, "Androgynous".

I could have been blessed with either gender parts, and I think I would be ok with that. The only thing that bothers me about having physical women's "parts", is when I'm told(and implied) I can't do something because "You're a girl!".:sad: Or, I am expected and to feel, act, and think a certain way, because, "You're a woman!!". Usually I have the capacity to do things of either gender's socially identified characteristics. I thank my partner for helping me to understand and forgive myself! Now I enjoy my life!!:hugs:

I know exactly what you mean. It sometimes bothers me that I've got male parts but I dont want to be a woman and looking at how I dress I've realised its actually quite androgynous and I feel happy with it.

I'm me - and thats the end of the story.

[Miss Tessa]

I cherish my individuality and I feel myself and other individuals are too unique to label, but the linguistics and terminology we use to relate to one another in life require labels.
That being said, transsexual girl is the label that fits me best I feel. But we must remember that gender is on a continuum line and is not a dichotomy that can be split into two catagories. Some folks are third gender people.

[Sejd]

Hi Captain
The question you raise is very interesting, and daring since in my experience so far, this forum is that it is not exactly the place of introspective thinking. But you bring it up and I think it is a fair question. The longer I am Sejd, the more I realize that I wish I had known myself better much earlier in life. I wish I had had the uportunity to access trans gender issues and learned to know people with these questions. I don't see myself in the wrong gender as much as I would desire to become a perfect woman. some times I can even enjoy being male among other males, because I have been socialized to know how that works, and it therefore feels comfortable. The more time I am Sejd however, the more I relax into the company of females and into self acceptance as the female Sejd. For myself, I know I will never become a full woman. No surgery or hormones would change that for me, but at the same time, as time goes by, I learn to become a better woman and a more full human being. Become more myself. From all the posts I have made myself here on this forum, or from posts I have read, it seems to me that any label we put on ourselves always are a tool for disturbance and not for harmony. To anxiety and strife rather than understanding and advancement. One of my sons who studies Budhism tells me that in his mind, it does not matter anyway what gender we think we are. It is all an illusion. Maybe he is right?
So back to your question. I am beginning to think that all our gender confusion maybe not so important after all, and that all we really have to do is to celebrate however we feel comfortable as human beings. I know that sounds too simple, and maybe it is, but it also sounds too simple to think that our humanness depends on our choice of gender. So far I don't see the evidence on this forum that because a person change gender they become more compassionate, understanding or better human beings. Seems like refinement of the soul is entirely on another much more demanding level.
Having said that, let's rejoice in our uniqueness and celebrate life in all it's wonderful diversity.
hugs
Sejd

[Valeria]

The question you raise is very interesting, and daring since in my experience so far, this forum is that it is not exactly the place of introspective thinking.
I'd say that's a matter of perspective. I've seen a fair number of threads on subjects related to gender and queer theory here, with some interesting opinions expressed. The mere fact that some people do not tend to agree with you does not mean that they are not introspective.


some times I can even enjoy being male among other males, because I have been socialized to know how that works, and it therefore feels comfortable.
I gave that option up long ago - I don't retain the privilege of being a male among males. But it was never comfortable for me.


For myself, I know I will never become a full woman. No surgery or hormones would change that for me, but at the same time, as time goes by, I learn to become a better woman and a more full human being. Become more myself.
Of course surgery and hormones can't actually change someone's gender. I don't really think I've ever seen anyone claim that it could. I was a woman before I had my first surgery. But becoming our true selves is what transition is all about.

Incidentally, I've known people who initially didn't feel that they deserved the mantle of "woman" whom, after enough years of living as one, eventually changed their minds.


From all the posts I have made myself here on this forum, or from posts I have read, it seems to me that any label we put on ourselves always are a tool for disturbance and not for harmony.
I don't think that's quite correct. I'm very happy with the labels I place on myself: woman, mother, lesbian, femme, queer, dyke. In fact, I'd say I'm fairly emotionally invested in all those labels. I take great pride in being a mother and in being queer.

It is labels that other people would put on me, here or elsewhere (tranny, crossdresser, "two-spirited", third-gendered), to which I sometimes object - mostly because I don't think they reflect my core identity. Some of the labels to which I object aren't even trans related - I've been called some pretty vulgar terms at times just for being lesbian.

So I think that's the key. Only label yourself, don't label other people, and don't disrespect other people's chosen labels.


So far I don't see the evidence on this forum that because a person change gender they become more compassionate, understanding or better human beings.
I wouldn't presume to judge my fellow forum members as to whether they have become better human beings. Seeing as how there is no one here that has transitioned that I really knew pre-transition, even if I wanted to I can't see how I'd be able to do so.

I have seen plenty of evidence elsewhere that people can become more complete and well-adjusted after they transition. As for myself, I abandoned a high-paying career to become a nurse and a mother, so I may not have become more compassionate, but I've certainly devoted more of my life to caring for others. I also try to help people out here with whatever expertise I can - that's the only reason I joined this forum, since I was essentially already done with transition before I ever posted here.

But no one ever said that transition would automatically make people more compassionate or better human beings, and I see no reason (other than relieving internal stress) that it should. After all, neither gender is inherently more compassionate or better than the other.

Of course, I never actually changed gender. I just changed my body and my gender expression to be more congruent with the gender I already had.

[GypsyKaren]

Of course, I never actually changed gender. I just changed my body and my gender expression to be more congruent with the gender I already had.

Why does it feel like we're beating our heads against a brick wall in trying to get this point across?

Karen Starlene :star:

[melissaK]

I have grown to view myself as agendered-- helenr

"Agendered" - coining a new word . . .

People who speak many languages tell us that English has more words than any other language. A word for every subtle variation of everything. C'est vrai!

I feel we are all at an etymologic shoe store trying on words to see which ones fit. Some of use find easy fits right away - others of us need to order custom shoes . . .

I gotta go try on some more shoes now,:heehee:

hugs,
'lissa

[Kieron Andrew]

Of course, I never actually changed gender. I just changed my body and my gender expression to be more congruent with the gender I already had.Exactly! ive ALWAYS been male, albeit a female bodied male....


Why does it feel like we're beating our heads against a brick wall in trying to get this point across?
cos we are!!

[Nicki B]

Why does it feel like we're beating our heads against a brick wall in trying to get this point across?

And yet the number of TSs who think I'm nuts when I say 'but surely it's not GRS - it's just SRS'? :strugglin

[Valeria]

And yet the number of TSs who think I'm nuts when I say 'but surely it's not GRS - it's just SRS'?
When I say GRS, I mean Genital Reassignment (or Reconstruction) Surgery. That's what my surgeon (Marci Bowers) called my surgery. She didn't agree with the other common labels, and I agree with her reasoning.

Certainly Sex Reassignment Surgery is more accurate than Gender Reassignment Surgery, but I prefer the label coined by Dr. Bowers to either of those alternatives.

[Cai]

Genital Reassignment Surgery. I like that.

[GypsyKaren]

I had Parts Replacement Surgery...

Karen Starlene :star:

[Sejd]

Why does it feel like we're beating our heads against a brick wall in trying to get this point across?

Karen Starlene :star:
If you are so invested in getting your "point accross" maybe you should let go of that attachment and just be complete in who you are. Clearly, you have made your choices and are happy with that. Why is it so hard for you to accept that others see things differently? When I write on this Forum, I tell it as I see. It might be provocative, it might be in your face!! so what? it is my own oppinion and no one else. So you had surgery, and you take hormones. Well, that is great for you. Well we are all on different levels and all have our different experiences. It would be so liberating if we could all express that without being subject to negative reactions. I used to counsel large groups of men in what was called the "Mythopoetich mens movement" back in the nineties. Yeah, go figure, but we had a ritual called "The talking stick" and when a man would stand up and talk his truth, no one would respond, just accept his statement. It was a very powerful ecperience, to talk and not to be corrected.
I deeply wish it could be like this on the Forum, that we could share our thoughts without being trashed for doing so.
Sejd

[ZenFrost]

If you are so invested in getting your "point accross" maybe you should let go of that attachment and just be complete in who you are. Clearly, you have made your choices and are happy with that. Why is it so hard for you to accept that others see things differently? When I write on this Forum, I tell it as I see. It might be provocative, it might be in your face!! so what? it is my own oppinion and no one else. So you had surgery, and you take hormones. Well, that is great for you. Well we are all on different levels and all have our different experiences.

I don't see how that's a response to what Karen said, did you maybe misunderstand the "point" she was trying to make? :strugglin I don't see anywhere in that post where she said that no one else could see things differently or that she was speaking for everyone. :idontknow:


It would be so liberating if we could all express that without being subject to negative reactions. I used to counsel large groups of men in what was called the "Mythopoetich mens movement" back in the nineties. Yeah, go figure, but we had a ritual called "The talking stick" and when a man would stand up and talk his truth, no one would respond, just accept his statement. It was a very powerful ecperience, to talk and not to be corrected.
I deeply wish it could be like this on the Forum, that we could share our thoughts without being trashed for doing so.
Sejd

:confused: So why are you subjecting Karen to a negative response if you don't think this forum should be like that?

[Valeria]

Sejd, when you start threads asking questions like "Are you sick, or are you just you?" and "Two Spirit? what does it really mean?", you may get responses that don't agree with your opinions. That's not at all the same as holding a "truth stick" and speaking your truth. Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear contrary view points.

Also, do you really think that starting a thread in the transsexual section entitled "Are you sick, or are you just you?", wherein you imply that those of us that sought medical assistance in making our bodies more congruent with our identity have been fooled or coerced into unnecessary treatments by Western society, is conducive to your stated goal? I mean, didn't it occur to you that those of us that have been motivated to actually have surgery and take hormones might disagree with your insight into our psyches? And how is speculating about our motivations speaking *your* truth - I rather think that my motivations for having surgery are *my* truth.

How is telling Karen "If you are so invested in getting your "point accross" maybe you should let go of that attachment and just be complete in who you are" telling "your" truth? It sounds more like you are advising her to stop talking about *her* truth.

Oh, and as a general rule, making comments like "this forum ... is not exactly the place of introspective thinking" and "I don't see the evidence on this forum that because a person change gender they become more compassionate, understanding or better human beings" isn't likely to be conducive to congenial discussion either.

But that's just my viewpoint - I can't speak for anyone else...

[GypsyKaren]

Why is it so hard for you to accept that others see things differently?

You obviously don't know me or what you're talking about, I have always gone out of my way to support everyone in whatever choices they make, I have never claimed that my way is the best or only way, and I most certainly have not ever said something along your lines, like "Not having SRS means you're sick."



When I write on this Forum, I tell it as I see. It might be provocative, it might be in your face!! so what?

Because you have a talent for getting it wrong?



So you had surgery, and you take hormones. Well, that is great for you. Well we are all on different levels and all have our different experiences. It would be so liberating if we could all express that without being subject to negative reactions.

Excuse me? You go through my 7600+ posts and find ONE where I said ANYTHING negative to ANYONE about not doing what I did, and the same goes for the other post-ops here, you show me one single post.


I used to counsel large groups of men in what was called the "Mythopoetich mens movement" back in the nineties. Yeah, go figure, but we had a ritual called "The talking stick" and when a man would stand up and talk his truth, no one would respond, just accept his statement. It was a very powerful ecperience, to talk and not to be corrected.
I deeply wish it could be like this on the Forum, that we could share our thoughts without being trashed for doing so.
Sejd

If you think you can come here and be taken as gospel when you are wrong, ain't gonna happen! Being corrected is not being trashed, so keep your opinions to yourself if you can't handle different ones.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Sharon]

I deeply wish it could be like this on the Forum, that we could share our thoughts without being trashed for doing so.
Sejd

When we read a post that implies that what you feel is gospel truth for everyone, and that the rest of us are just wrong in what we feel, you will receive dessenting points of view. That does not mean that we disagree with what you feel about yourself, but that we have our own opinions regarding ourselves. Don't mistake differing opinions for anything more than what they are, and, please, don't keep posting more and more antagonistic replies, unless you want the same in return.

[wishonastar]

because it is not so cut and dry.

I am a mixture. I love women. I find males repulsive, BUT I do not like my body and envy women for their long hair, colorful dresses, figures and breasts and the "other part". I am not an assertive type and do not like being "in charge" and having to make all the decisions it is to much stress.


If I was given a choice to stay as a man or be a woman "for real". I would stay as a man even though I do not like my body and being a man, but I like women and a male female relationship which I need so survive.

I am sure I would do very well as a real woman, but I would be by myself which I could not handle.

So I am transgendered (the wrong gender) but not doing anything about it.

[Sejd]

If my post comes accross as if I think it is gospell truth for everyone, I sincerely appologize. I don't have any answers and I am just trying to figure my own stuff out. In the process I have written harsh words and I regret them. I want to extend to everyone who I might have offended that I appreciate all the support I have always received on this fourm. We all have a hard enough time as it is. - Sorry.
Sejd

[helenr]

Agendered. Thank goodness for Spiro. Much calmer, less uptight about crossdressing, realize I will never make the physical or social transition. Not wasting oodles of time trying to get a stronger 'fix' of my own form of sex. It is quiet now. Just enjoy being in a sex-drive free personal existence.

Great question. I really salute Kehleyr for her as usual astute comments and sharing what she knows to benefit others.

Being sex-drive free has greatly clarified what life is all about. I can take daily everything without having the former bad energy that I associate with the male-female business. I look around and see so many world problems that I am sure are testosterone fueled. I truly think that if there was someway that testosterone as in potent semen could be controlled-so appropriate repopulation could occur, but all the crimes, sexual assaults, massive over population, etc could be controlled-like turning off a faucet. I say this as I have found that my blood test shows 'normal' testosterone-like 501--despite a year of spiro- which has totally changed my libido and ability- can exist, and yet the med can keep it where it belongs-help with strength, stamina, bones-not mess up your mind. sorry for the long free thinking. helen

[christina marie]

<<<< psst... look left:D