Define for me what is passing ?

[MJ]

OK Please can you tell me what Passing means to you .
how do you grade passing ?
here are some pictures please be brutally honest thats what were here for .
OK I'll start the first two are from my glory days "last year "
and well how i look now i know i am fat apart from that my voice sucks therefore i can't pass look like a girl *maybe* sound like a guy ... so what is passing to you .. i feel it's overrated .. just be yourself and have fun
i am fine with who i am don't get me wrong , i just want to learn
mods :- please can this stay here for all to see including our guest if possible

[SandyR]

MJ, first you look great, its as much about the smile and fun I can see you are having a blast (I could use your help with the smile, need to work on mine). The latter pics make u look older, but still very cute!

Hugs!

SandyR

[StacyCD]

For me passing was once being taken for a gg. Although that is nice, now passing means being accepted and treated as my outward presentation projects. Yes, I'm sometimes viewed as a guy in a dress--but its a classy dress!

[Karen Francis]

In the first two pictures you are wearing a wig and it looks it. In the 2nd two pictures it appears to be your own hair. From my standpoint you are much more passable in the 2nd two pictures, looking very much like any GG who isn't really paying a great deal of attention to her looks, which constitutes 60% of the women out there.

But there is more to passing than looks. Overall size, mannerisms, speech of course. I am what they call a 10 footer, from more than 10 feet away I get away with it most of the time. If that is your own hair, it gives you a big advantage. I am going to keep on trying to get closer to the ideal, I hope you do to, you are doing fine...

[windycissy]

It looks to me like you have the chops for passing...I agree with the observation that bearing and attitude are almost as important as physical appearance. Anyway to answer your question: to me, passing is being able to present yourself as a real woman and get away with it, most of the time - you're never going to bat 1.000, but if you get read only occasionally, you're passing to me.

[Angie G]

I don't really pass I don;t think look wise I evan come close to me it more in my head.
The way I feel about trhe girl in me :hugs:
Angie

[shirley1]

you look pretty passible to me in all photos ! define passing - i guess going out dressed not attracting much attention certainly not negative attention - for all i know (havnt oficiallly bin out yet) i might pass more than i think i will but it seems to me passing isnt that important to some - but for others its vital ! maybe it depends on how much the need to go out dressed overides the need to pass ie some need to go out whether passible or not - for others the only way they will go out at least on their own is if they know they can probably pass - at the end of the day anyone will do anything if the needs great enough !

[trannie T]

I have no idea what it would be like to pass. If I did I would probably go out more. I still enjoy going out and have a good time.

[Sherlyn]

Mj..after spending 2 nights out with you ....I dont know what you are worried about...everyone that I seen chatting with you ..never once gave you that look....ya I know your voice bugs ya ..so does mine..but you know with the right ppl that know who you are it dont matter ...Everyone of my friends know that Im TG ... the voice don't matter .... imagine the ones that didnt know us and overheard us talking....this year will just :p at them ...:hugs: Mj
Passing is just blending in ...and for now whispers :D

[MJ]

Thanks everyone and sher well i am trying to understand what we think is passing hey you know i can talk to anyone .. i am just curious as the responses as i am interested in the replies
and last year was so much fun

[jennifer41356]

You look good to me in those pics..I feel passing is a state of mine, if you feel comfortable going out and people treat like a lady , whether they can read you or not, than you have passed

I think the biggest problem we have have is being looked at, women are always being looked at, by guys and other women and they ignore it, we get looked at and we automatically feel we are being read, maybe someone is admiring the outfit we have on or maybe they are checking out our hot legs:D

so get out there and have fun:love:

[SweetCaroline]

I'd rather not "pass" per say if passing means being "not noticed" or mistaken as a true female. I'd rather be seen as a transgendered male rather than be ignored. Tho blending in is fine, I don't go out wearing whistles and bells shouting to the world that I'm transgendered.

To me passing is just being able to go about your business in public, be it a mall, restaurant, club, city street, etc. and be treated like a lady, even if everyone knows you were born a male. For me, this isn't Tootsie or the Crying Game. I don't care how many people look at me and say "is that a guy?". I don't think anyone who looks at me, or interacts with me is really mislead into thinking I'm really a woman. I do however dress and behave as one of the femme gender. So to me, it's more about attitude and presentation. Others may define "passing" differently, but that's my take on it.

[DeniseK]

You look fine to me. You look like any other woman doing her thing. Isn't that what it really about?

[flatlander_48]

Thanks everyone and sher well i am trying to understand what we think is passing hey you know i can talk to anyone .. i am just curious as the responses as i am interested in the replies
and last year was so much fun

Actually I was thinking that you looked a lot like Mira Sorvino in the next to the last photo...

[docrobbysherry]

Considering the only thing I pass is last nite's dinner, here's my 2cents.
Your first pics r more feminine looking because of your extremely hi forehead in the latter pics. Whether or not people know u r wearing a wig. Many GG's wear wigs! U look very passable, and CUTER, to me, with dark hair!
RS

[Jennaie]

Actually, I'm wondering why you're asking if your personal view is that it is overrated.

First of all let's assume that "to pass" means "to make others believe", for example: I passed myself off as a professional baseball player and he believed me. With that definition we have to accept that passing means to make others believe that you are a genetic female.

I suppose that passing has different levels for different people. I went out dressed, shopping, never opened my mouth and received nothing but smiles from everyone. Had I opened my mouth, shock would have ensued. I felt I passed to a degree but realized that there were certain things I can't do in public and pass.

Then there is the young ts who can do it all. She can live as a female and nobody knows the difference. These are the few who, after transition usually "go stealth", meaning, they alienate themselves from the transgendered community and live the rest of their lives as though they had been born female. You will probably never meet one because they are "that good".

So, in short, to me, you have passing to a degree, totally passing, and finally, going stealth. How much does it matter, that's for the individual to decide for themselves.

Or you can look at it this way: You see an ad in the personals that is looking for a totally passable cd or ts, now what does passing mean to you? I don't think we can bend the definition of the word, it's pretty straight forward. We either don't pass, pass under certain conditions, or totally pass.

I once had a German Shepard that totally passed. People would ask me all the time what his name was and I would have to tell them that she was a girl. I don't think any of the other dogs laughed at her about it though.

[Kate Simmons]

"Passing" or "failing" is an individual perception as far as I'm concerned. I'm more concerned with how a person feels about themself. You look great BTW in all the pics MJ.:happy:

[LACD]

To me, passing is being able to go out dressed for whatever reason or occasion and just enjoy the moment. I guess just being who you are and be true to yourself are important. I would love to be able to go shopping, to a movie or dine out en femme and just be able to blend in without drawing any negative looks or comments. I know looks wise, I'll probably not pass as a female,but I still enjoy my female mode very very much. Hopefully I will be able to go out dressed and enjoy life like I really want to. Until then the closet is open only in my own home.

[Nicki B]

'Passing' surely means being mistaken for someone born as the opposite sex, nothing more, nothing less - it doesn't necessarily mean you look good (it often means not getting noticed at all)?

Therefore, you can never truly pass to yourself - and in so many ways, it's about a lie. :sad:

Not worrying about 'passing' but accepting who and what you are, and being comfortable with that, IME gives YOU more pleasure AND makes you more attractive to others...

That 'comfortable in your skin' sense, perversely often makes you 'pass' better? :)

[MJ]

There are some interesting points here. thank you for your input :hugs:

[darla_g]

MJ,
You have been quite prolific in your posting and whenever I see your pictures I always think, "what a fine looking woman" Very natural and comfortable in her own skin. Now granted the pictures are small and you may not be able to pick out small details (like a bad wig or something {not that theres any problem or anything} or a small physical details you cant easily see) [I read somewhere that the 2 male physical attributes that are really hard to hide are a protruding forehead round the brow line (women are usually more subdued) and of course an adams apple.]

But you definitely pull it off!

now for the wigs i like the red with bangs. I agree with the comment about the high fore head in the last two but it just looks like a woman with a hair problem. I don't know about your voice but sometimes a deep voice is incredibly sexy on woman.

[Genifer Teal]

I wrote this a few weeks ago. This is how I define passing:

I went on an over night trip to Philly. I met a friend there and we went to a party at a night club. My travel plans included taking the train to NYC and then another train to Philadelphia. I've traveled on local trains more than enough times. A trip to Philly wouldn't be much much different.

As it turns out, the trip was entirely uneventful (or was it?). There was plenty of time in my travels to think about this whole passing issue and what it realy is about. I had conversations on the train, exchanged a ticket at the counter for my return travel, and had a bite to eat with my friend at Dave & Busters. During all this, I was treated exactly the same as if I presented as a man. I did not notice any unusual stares or knowing glances.

Does this mean I passed? I don't have a clue. I didn't stop to ask anyone. What I realized is that it doesn't matter. When I go out, I would like to be treated with respect and not laughed at or treated poorly. That is exactly what happened. I was treated respectfully, and I was satisfied. Weather or not I really passed doesn't matter to me. It would not have changed any of my experiences on this trip.

How you define passing is a personal question. We can all have a different answer. What is important is what passing means to you. Consider why you are presenting as a female in the first place and what you expect from it. Once you determine your expectations, if they are met, then perhaps you too have passed.


Hugs - Genfier

[Kieron Andrew]

What is passing?...for me passing is a state of mind, ive seen many GGs who ive done a double take at because they to me looked like MtFs, same in reverse for MtFs who look like GGs.....if you exude confidence thats when you pass, when no one else gives two hoots what you look like and takes no notice of you....oh and for what its worth MJ im gonna go in the minority here my favourite pic out of that lot is the one of you on santa's knee, purely because you are not hiding behind a wig

[Nicki B]

How you define passing is a personal question. We can all have a different answer. What is important is what passing means to you. Consider why you are presenting as a female in the first place and what you expect from it. Once you determine your expectations, if they are met, then perhaps you too have passed.

Genifer, surely what you are describing is being comfortable with yourself - indeed being happy? :)

Surely passing is passing as a >insert appropriate sex here<? :strugglin

[MonicaDD]

HI to everyone;
To me passing used to mean I could go out in public, shopping-clubing-dinner, and no one would know I was really a guy, I am lucky and have been blessed with a figure that lets me get away with it,for the most part, but the more I went out in public and no one thought any different the more I needed a challange to "pass" and I would dress a little more provacative and sexy, well that just made me More passable, people would look at me with desire and hate but not to see if I was a guy.
Today passing , to me, is being desired by straight men, even though they know Im really a guy the fact they want to be with me, as a woman, and they see me AS a sexy woman and have the lust and desire toward me that they would have for any other real woman makes ME feel as I have passed.
Passed is like a test, like you took in school, if you were good you passed, well I have to be good at being a woman and try to be the sexiest most femm woman I can possibly be, and if Im good enough to attract men then I know I have passed.:D
Love to all, Monica.

[Bobby Anne]

OK Please can you tell me what Passing means to you .
how do you grade passing ?
here are some pictures please be brutally honest thats what were here for .
OK I'll start the first two are from my glory days "last year "
and well how i look now i know i am fat apart from that my voice sucks therefore i can't pass look like a girl *maybe* sound like a guy ... so what is passing to you .. i feel it's overrated .. just be yourself and have fun
i am fine with who i am don't get me wrong , i just want to learn
mods :- please can this stay here for all to see including our guest if possible

Well to start...none of those photos.
Don't worry about passing...no one really does..except in our minds and thats all that counts.

[Emma England]

Passing is being believed to be the opposite sex.

People may accept you, and therefore not show any different reaction towards you. You may have thought you passed (but probably weren't).

[Bobby Anne]

Don't kid yourself even the prettiest of us get read. I strived to pass once and after a time it was working. Then I missed the days when I was read in public..it was always a great conversation starter.

It's our conversation that makes us the ambassador of the CD world.

One night a gal said to "I'd swear I was talking to another woman", the clothes, look and attitude had little to do with it. I listened.

[KimberlyS]

What "Passing" means to me .

Passing is looking like a girl/woman. I think many CD/TG's are using it to in terms of achieving their perfect woman look which is near impossible.

That being said, I think the term "Passing" is over used by CD/TG's. There are so many GG's that look and sound very masculine. And they "Pass" as GG's. And most GG's have some quality or feature that is masculine. Just as most males have some quality or feature that is feminine.

I do not try to achieve the "Passing" look that so many are trying to achieve. To those that have a need to do that I say go for it. But I see so many GG's that look and sound very masculine. For me, I usually use the term "Blending", which to me is the ability to be in public and be accepted for who you are and how you look.

And IMHO, the ability to be accepted starts with ones self. My experience is if you accept your self, and present a decent image to others they will accept you also, or accept you better or tolerate you.

When going out I look very masculine when in femme mode and I get quite a few looks, questioning looks, and double takes. And I hear some comments and laughs at times behind me. But I just continue about my business.

When I go out in femme mode I try to present a blending image for where I will be going. This is usually casual to dressy casual attire. Which I am almost always in a skirt and some type of heel, usually long jean skirt and mid heel, even if jeans and flat or tennis shoes are the norm.

I find to most people, I am just a person in the crowd of their life. Even many that look at me seem to give me no, to little reaction like they really are not seeing me. Those that do see me I get a mix of reactions from no reaction that I see, smiles, grins, surprise, questioning and a few disgust. Hey, can not please everyone in life. And those I interact with, while I get some surprised looks, I have always been treated professionally, usually cheerfully like any other customer, and often it seems they are enjoying helping me.

Hey, I get fewer and less reaction than a goth person with a heavy tattooed body and lots of piercings walking through the mall.

So maybe I am mixing the terms "Passing", "Blending", "Acceptance". Would not be the first time I was confused or stirring the pot. Maybe I am just a gender outlaw. I spent over 9 hrs out in public yesterday and I came home in the same shape I left in other than a mark from a girdle digging in. And I interacted with many SA's and people in the general public. I did not scare any GG's away from the racks I was shopping at with.

KimberlyS-CD
joe in a skirt

[Ashlee]

Passing to me would mean basically going out en femme and not having anyone think I was anything but the real deal. To be able to at least walk, maintain composure, mannerisms etc. If someone looked at me I would want them to be left with the impression that that's a good looking woman right there. Passing is I guess meaning not being "read" as a guy in a dress. I've been out once (Halloween party) and while people knew it was me I did hear that I had done a good job and it was hard to make me (thanks Jamie Austin!), once I put on a pair of glasses it totally changed my look. I wasn't recognized in pics as what/who I am. I was also outside during one of my makeovers and had several people drive by while I was in the parking lot. A lot of looks and a "woo, yeah baby" from a guy driving by in a pickup. I was about 30 feet in from a major road. I guess I "passed". Up close I wouldn't pass in the face, thanks to pictures and lighting I am what you see.

[charlie]

Passing to me is being able to walk down the street and not being laughed at every corner, insulted or generally having a day of dodging insults. Who wants to be laughed and chided at? We go out because we like what we look like at want to go out as that person. It really bugs me to go out and be snickeered at though! That is by definition not PASSING! You look great in all your photos! I like the first photos better because I think you look prettier and more feminine. However, you pass in all of them!

[Jenna1561]

What is Passing? Well to me

Passing is being seen by strangers with whom I interact, and accepted as or believed to be a woman. On the other hand,

Blending is being seen by strangers and assumed to be the gender being presented. It is more a matter of looking the part for the venue in which one is being viewed.

From your photos, I'd say you blend very, very well in the first two. The brunette wigs also lend a more youthful look. I think you blend reasonably well in the third photo, though your hair style appears to me to be somewhat severe. A softer style might be more flattering. In the fourth photo, where you seem to be very happy, your shoulders seem out of proportion to your lower body. That may be due to the sweater or the angle of your body in the photo.

However, photos alone are a poor tool, at least for me, when trying to judge Passing. There's just so much more to it than a static image can convey.

By the Way, I believe that you and everyone else who live their lives as they wish are heroes. I know that it cannot be easy, and I applaud all of you for your courage and determination.


Jenna

[JoAnnDallas]

I look at it this way. When I go out dressed, if no one bothers me, they treat me like any other woman and no one blatenly makes a Scene, then I feel I passed. I have had men open doors for me, other women give me a friendly smile, been called "Mam", "Miss", "Dear", and other common fem names. I even had a cowboy tip his hat at me one time while waiting at a stop light. That made me blush. I know I have been read, but no one has blantenly made a fuss over it.

[Deborah Jane]

Passing? Thats a hard one to answer for me as i,m still very much in the closet [i,d love to get out but don,t have the confidence]. I,ve read the other posts and can see there seem to be a lot ideas/suggestions on what is passable and what isn,t. I guess for me passing would be being able to go about my every day life without a second glance from other people as i do now in drab, but to be able to do exactly the same thing en femme. To be just another woman going about "her" business. That to me would be passing.:happy:BTW MJ you look good as i,ve said before!!

[Anna the Dub]

Passing to me is being able to walk down the street and not get odd looks or hurtful comments. I don't mind people looking at me, we all look at each other all the time, but not looking at me as if I was an object of fun, hate, ridicule, whatever. I am quite happy to be anonymous, to be just another face in the crowd. When I am noticed, I want to be seen and treated as a woman. It doesn't help my cause that I am a very shy and sensitive person, so need this anonymity.

MJ, in your photos I think you look like a woman in all of them (lucky you!!), but especially in the top right photo.

Not yet, but soon I will work up the courage to post some of my own pics.

[Kate Simmons]

Hmm, while I always say I don't care about passing (and I really don't), I nonetheless figure if I'm going to do it, I'll give it my best shot. What the hey, may as well go for the gusto, right? I smell another thread brewing here somewhere.:heehee:

[Eugenie]

In the first two pictures you are wearing a wig and it looks it. In the 2nd two pictures it appears to be your own hair. From my standpoint you are much more passable in the 2nd two pictures, looking very much like any GG who isn't really paying a great deal of attention to her looks, which constitutes 60% of the women out there.

It is strange but I had the opposite feeling. I thought that the two first pictures were more credible. In particular the second one on the top right. Likewise with the avatar pic which is great.

But Karen has a point when she sais that many GGs don't pay much attention to their look (at least apparently though) except in special circumstances...

But there is more to passing than looks. Overall size, mannerisms, speech of course. I am what they call a 10 footer, from more than 10 feet away I get away with it most of the time. If that is your own hair, it gives you a big advantage. I am going to keep on trying to get closer to the ideal, I hope you do to, you are doing fine...
I completely aggree with this second part. I'm doing the same... That's when the services of a professional makeup expert will certainly help...

:hugs:
Eugenie

[Nicki B]

So many people seem to think that acceptance is passing? :strugglin

Maybe that's why so few people seemed to understand what I was trying to say here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69957)... :hmmm:

[Nicole Erin]

Well it is good to know I am not the only one who worrys about this...

Anyways MJ, as long as you cover your forehead well, you look just fine. Your forehead is kind of large but a good hairstyle will hide that. I know that cause I have a horrid hairline where it recedes on the sides. Didn't know that did you? ;) I mean I ain't seen you RL but from all your photos it seems convincing.

You should color your hair brown.

And for what is passing? Passing means people don't know someone is CD/TS.
When you can live in the real world as your chosen gender, you "pass".

The voie can be worked on, I think there is some program on tsroadmap.com one can buy but I don't know how well it works. My own voice is a dead giveaway.

MJ, honestly hun, your looks are not holding you back. Don't even worry about that.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I look at it this way. When I go out dressed, if no one bothers me, they treat me like any other woman and no one blatenly makes a Scene, then I feel I passed. I have had men open doors for me, other women give me a friendly smile, been called "Mam", "Miss", "Dear", and other common fem names. I even had a cowboy tip his hat at me one time while waiting at a stop light. That made me blush. I know I have been read, but no one has blantenly made a fuss over it.


My experiences as well ;)

We all get read at one time or another. Its not a big deal unless you make it a big deal.

Zara

[Suzy Harrison]

Oh Marissa :hugs:

I think you look stunning in the first and second photos, no doubts.

But that third one doesn't work at all - That white beard is not going to convince anyone - even if you have got that hot chick sitting in your knee ! :heehee:

Joking apart, I think you look lovely in the first two - stick to that style it works well.

Passing is a peculiar thing. As several other girls have already mentioned, there's 'blending in' - where people will walk pass you and not notice anything out of the ordinary... and real passing, where you get them to notice you by interaction and they still don't notice anything out of the ordinary.

For me passing is important. If I didn't care what others think then it wouldn't be such a big thing for me I guess.

But passing is more than looking good in a photo. I may look pretty reasonable in my photos, but recently it's clear to me I'm not passing anymore for one reason or another - and it's devastating for me. So I can relate to any distress you’re feeling at the moment – as once the confidence starts to go passing gets harder to achieve.

But from the photos you look lovely – and I wouldn’t say that if it weren’t true..

:hugs: Suzy :hugs:

[Laurelanne]

Highly overrated yet provacatively needed... Passing is having people accept you for who you are..inside. Remember " afriend is someone who knows ALL about you, BUT loves you just the same. .L

[Merry]

MJ, 2 pic alike woman, just second pic, may be older.:hugs:

[Nicki B]

Passing is having people accept you for who you are..inside.

But passing is wholly about the external perceptions? That's the whole problem..

Surely acceptance and passing are two separate things - if you are passing as born female, you are not being accepted for who you are?

[Christine Kelly]

Passing is: wearing whatever you want and going out and enjoying your self! :happy:

[MJ]

Thank you all for your insight and comments as i feel there are levels to passing .
you see from me the first two pictures i spent over an hour getting ready you know foundation cover up the works and a wig
well my Christmas pictures are only eye makeup and my own hair *mop* and like 10 minutes if that and i still had a great time and IMHO I look like crap
no one said anything to me and i never got the ewww look . i had fun and enjoyed myself .. just being myself.. you can look good and not pass then you can look totally passable until you speak . just be happy
and yes there are the elite of the sisters here That make me look like Doris the ugly sister ..but they won't venture out so passing means different things to different people
thank you again
mj

[Jenna1561]

MJ,

You seem to me to be one wonderful person. I really think you look good with the wigs and I don't believe you'd have many problems when you go out, as you say, with the proper preparedness. But you and others inspire me because you are so comfortable with yourself that you live and interact without always putting your best face on. I think you're GREAT!

Jenna

[Pamela Julie]

To me, passing is interacting with someone and they see me as a woman. This may be from a distance without any speech, most of us can pass in this situation. Up close and having a conversation, passing is when the other person sees me as a woman with a deep voice. Being seen as a man in a dress and being accepted is not passing, but can be emotionally uplifting just the same. MJ, you look like a gg in all four photos. The red hair style and color suits you better. If the blond hair is real, consider getting it colored and styled similar to the red hair. The makeup in all photos look very good. As to the weight, I see it in gg's all the time.

[Sophie_C]

I consider passing as coming off as being fully indistinguishable from natal females on the street, from anyone who is fully removed from any sort of TG / TS / CD world.

I don't really spend time questioning how well other people do it, but if I was to judge myself, it would require full HRT, laser, FFS, etc - since every square inch of the body is affected by those things. The curves of your legs, thighs, breast area, belly, hips, etc are affected by estrogen running through your veins. Your face is affected by it. Your hair texture is affected by it. I can go on forever.

I know people can do an OK job without those changes and some are blessed with highly feminine bone structure, low body mass, virtually no body hair, etc - those are an incredible minority of those out there.

So, to answer your question: It takes a LOT to "pass".

[MJ]

Mj..after spending 2 nights out with you ....I dont know what you are worried about...
everyone that I seen chatting with you ..never once gave you that look....ya I know your voice bugs ya ..so does mine..but you know with the right ppl that know who you are it dont matter ...Everyone of my friends know that Im TG ... the voice don't matter .... imagine the ones that didnt know us and overheard us talking....this year will just :p at them ...:hugs: Mj
Passing is just blending in ...and for now whispers :D

two hot chicks discussing makeup at the mac counter both sounding like Silvester Stallone :lol2:

[Heelsnlegs]

I still see a lovely girl in those pictures...