Question on Passing?

[Aeslyn]

(Please do not misunderstand me in this. It's not that I think any of you are doing anything wrong but that I think this is something worth thinking about when you try to "pass". Also, I think it's more important for every person to be who they are. For us that is a wolf in sheep's clothes.)

Passing? Why?

So, from reading this site, it seems to me that when people refer to "passing" they refer not only to dressing fully as a women and acting and feeling like one. Not only to the overall mannerism and characteristics. But to taking on that appearance to the point where we make others believe we are a woman. Make them believe that we are something we are not. That they can look up our skirts and, sure enough, there will be that sweet feminine spot. That we want to trick or fool them in to believing that we not only have the look, but all the right equipment for the job as well.

But we don't.

Isn't "passing" really a lie and in that way isn't it wrong to try to pass. It is tricking others to view you as something other than what you are that could lead them to ultimately feel very uncomfortable... or worse.

To use another example of what is really the same thing...
A 14 y/o dresses and acts like she is 19 to get the attention of an older male. Wouldn't we all lecture her about such actions. She is pretending she is something that she is not which can lead to complications for her or others.
An example of such a girl is my former next door neighbor. At 14 everyone thought she was 21. She never lied about her age, it was just how she naturaly looked and acted. A Mormon Missionary once even considered getting her address so that he could write her and see where it would lead... till I told him she was 14. But imagine how he then felt, at 22 and being very infatuated with a 14 y/o girl.

Put yourselves in that situation. Be the guy the 14 y/o girl is attempting to be with. You don't know how old she really is and you think she is beautiful and wonderful and everything you desire. How do you feel when you learn her real age? You'd feel wronged, maybe even used. You would feel very uncomfortable and even disgusted with yourself for having felt that way cause you just don't think it is right to view someone that young in such a way. You would feel like there is something wrong with you. All those horrible words that are associated with such things and people automatically spring to mind. But she is the one who knowingly lied to you, didn't she do something wrong? Isn't it her fault? She passed as being older. A court wouldn't convict you cause you didn't know. But still... you convict yourself.

Is it then any different when a guy who is totally heterosexual sees a beautiful woman and is attracted to her? Later he learns that she is really a man who tries and succeeds at passing as a woman. When he learns the truth is he any less justified for holding the lie against that person? Is he any less justified for being very uncomfortable over the whole situation? And is the CD any less responsible or to blame.

The truth is, when you try to pass you perpetrate a lie which could cause someone mental and emotional harm. Beyond that, however, is the truth that you are not a woman. You are a man wearing some clothes. I don't think that any clothing should be considered women's or men's and that we should just wear the clothing we are comfortable in. But since the world sees it differently... you are a man wearing women's clothing. We are CD's, not women. What's that saying similar to this... something about wolves and sheep.

Truthfully, we are all beautiful people. I, for example, don't bother to wear make up. It hides truth which I believe to be beauty. You can show me any two girls of any age, race, nationality, blah blah, etc.... one of which is wearing make-up and the other not and I will always tell you I think the one without make up is more beautiful.

So why do we put some much importance on passing? Do any of use have any more or any less respect or admiration for the the Passing CD then for the one who doesn't. Wearing women's clothes is not a lie, that is a part of who we are. But we are not actually woman... we do not have those body parts. We might want to, but obviously not enough to actually make that change. The 24 hours as a woman thread someone made, that's been my dream since i was about 17 - to be able to change at will from male to female. But I can't, I am a guy, so I would never lie about that. But I have had someone act like she was something she was not so that I would be with her. I know how I felt when I fell in love with one person only to discover that person really didn't exist. This has made me quite sensitive to such issues and left me believing fervently that we should not actively try to be something we are not. This really does only cause harm to others.

[Julogden]

Hello Aeslyn,

Got your flameproof lingerie on, I hope. I think you're stirring up a real hornet's nest. You're judging others because they don't share your values, not a good idea, dear. Sounds like you're looking to pick a fight.

While I feel that passing does nothing to increase tolerance for transgendered people, I also understand that different people have different reasons for dressing and different requirements, some need to pass others don't. We have a wide variety of people here, not just CD's.

The opinions that you've stated are just that, your opinions, and nothing more. If you're happy going around without makeup, that's fine, but don't criticize others because they don't want to do what you want to do. Most males need makeup if they want to look anything close to feminine.

Carol

[Nicole Erin]

Hello Aeslyn,

Got your flameproof lingerie on, I hope. I think you're stirring up a real hornet's nest. You're judging others because they don't share your values, not a good idea, dear. Sounds like you're looking to pick a fight.


That also depends on how many people will read thru all that. :heehee:
Actually that speech is funny if you imagine it spoken in Jesse Jackson's voice...

[linnea]

"The truth is, when you try to pass you perpetrate a lie which could cause someone mental and emotional harm. Beyond that, however, is the truth that you are not a woman. You are a man wearing some clothes. I don't think that any clothing should be considered women's or men's and that we should just wear the clothing we are comfortable in. But since the world sees it differently... you are a man wearing women's clothing. We are CD's, not women. What's that saying similar to this... something about wolves and sheep."

Aside from the length and judgmental tone of your post, I find some of your points significant enough to reflect on. However, I do not agree that you have determined the truth about "passing."
First, your assessment of the motivation for passing seems to me to be quite narrow. I do not attempt to pass in order to attract men. I attempt to pass because I want to dress with a feeling of comfort. The fewer questioning stares I receive, the better. I am not trying to deceive anyone about my sexual equipment. Regardless of whether or not I am a CD or a GG, other people should not be looking up my skirt for any purpose. If I were a GG wearing loose-fitting pants, traditional men's pants, would I be guilty of misleading people to the conclusion that I am hiding a vagina in those pants instead of a penis? I don't think so.
If I dress as a cowboy--hat, boots, spurs, chaps, Wranglers, cowboy shirt--will someone wonder if I am hiding a horse between my legs. Will someone mistake me for a real cowboy and feel deceived when they find that I've never branded a steer or roped a cactus? Will I fit in at the Cheyenne rodeo--probably. Will someone possibly mistake me for that guy that won the steer wrestling event and ask me for my autograph--yup. Will that person be disappointed when I say, "No M'am, I'm just a tourist like you, but thanks for askin'."
Would it be wrong to sign the autograph as if I were the steer wrestler--of course. It would also be wrong to mislead an admirer, but the wrongness is equal to anyone--GG, CD, whatever. But to me, passing is not about tricking someone into a sexual liaison. To assume that it is just about sex is to sell a lot of sincere and caring and gentle people very short.
:2c:

[Aeslyn]

Sorry, I was not trying to criticize or judge. Only to draw attention to something that is often forgot and hopefully make people really think.

I really have nothing against those who try to pass in general. I only know what I would do if I met someone who tried to have others think that she was really a woman. (On a further read through I notice that the word "make" being used in there might have been too aggressive.) Personally, I'd not be friends with that person afterward because I would see it as having been lied too and therefor would not be able to trust that person. However, I rather enjoy any CD's that I know who make no pretenses toward actually being a women. Who don't hide the fact that they really are a man.

I am not referring to those who are trying to look like woman or look feminine but, as I had stated, only to those who try to have others believe they truly are which seems to be the definition of "passing" if understood from the posts here. Trying to look like a woman is great and those who can pull it off are awesome (no other word for it). Being treated like a woman is also great. I'd like to be treated that way much of the time. But trying to be treated that way under false pretenses...

I am sorry if I did offend anyone though. You are all actually great.

[Aeslyn]

linnea, that stuff about a cowboy was actually quite amusing.
Anyway, sorry if I wasn't clear on the attraction part of what I wrote. I wasn't referring to sex. I do love girls, so much. And where I live it is often that I see a girl I think is attractive only to learn later that she is much too you. Very hard to tell here in Vancouver how old a girl is. When I later learn her age I am uncomfortable with how I felt, even though I made no advancement toward her.

But yes, maybe I did not fully understand the definition of passing. It seems, when people talk of passing and then of being "read" that they actually wanted people to think they were a woman. I wasn't suggesting that anyone try to pass to attract men. But my point was, if you do try to pass, and they judge you badly because they were attracted to you only to learn that you were not in fact a woman, is it really their fault that they feel the way they do about you afterward? If you do pass, it is only natural that there are men who will be attracted.

[StayceeCD]

But my point was, if you do try to pass, and they judge you badly because they were attracted to you only to learn that you were not in fact a woman, is it really their fault that they feel the way they do about you afterward? If you do pass, it is only natural that there are men who will be attracted.

What about some of the gorgeous lesbians I've encountered? They're pretty, dress great.. Would you be angry at them for making you attracted to them? I like to look as femme as possible FOR ME AND ME ONLY!! I don't care if a guy is attracted to me and would NEVER let a guy think I am anything I am not! I am a heterosexual married CD and damn proud of it! Also why would I ever give a crap if someone judges me badly? :2c:

[Billijo49504]

You were speaking of one dropping their water, as in urine. Ohh, you said passing, well turn on any TV and you'll see plenty of people trying to convince you, they are something other than what they are, so why can't we do it too!!!! Just because they are better paid, doesn't make it any better.
Let me put it to you this way sweet heart, I turned 21 in South East Asia, the Republic of Viet Nam, in Feburuary of 1968. The start of TET of 68. I fought in that war to supposedly defend our way of life, as a infantry sniper. What gives you the right to tell me what I should do or think or the way I should act or dress. Maybe you should go crawl back under the rock you crawled from under. :tongueout
That's the problem with poeple like you, this site supports all CD'rs. Whether you are a closet CD or you are TG or anything in between. My first wife accepted my dressing till she died. And my second wife loves to share clothes with me. If that's a problem with you, tough stuff. Moderators I'm using as polite laungage as I can, to be polite. One must be compassionate of others, or you are as big a biggot as the pigs that hate us, but don't know us....BJ

[joann426]

you said a mouth full staycc that the way i feel to i really dont care if i am read bad or not either:happy:

[windycissy]

I do it because it's fun and I can pull it off...I suspect that if you were able to pass you'd be a lot less hung up about others who can.

[linnea]

"linnea, that stuff about a cowboy was actually quite amusing."

Okay, I thought it was pretty amusing myself. Thanks.

[Jennaie]

When I went out to pass, I had no intentions of attracting a man. If a man had said anything in the form of a "pass", I would have let him know immediately that I was male.

I don't think you realize why some have a need to pass. For me, passing was validation, I had a need, a real need to be validated in public as female. Although I deceived others visually, I did not care if I may have lost someone's trust, they were all strangers to me and all I wanted was to mingle among them and be viewed as female.

I was not seeking a friendship of trust, a relationship of trust, or any other kind of personal communication other than being seen, with eyes of the public that deemed me as female by view only.

Your comparison to a 14 year old who portrays herself as 19 is not fair at all. I don't think there is anything wrong with a young woman who is 14 looking 19. I do think there is something wrong if she does not reveal her age if she is being approached romantically/sexually by someone male/female who is obviously of legal age.

I'm not going to judge you for having your views but you need not be judgmental of others when you don't understand their true motives for what they do.

I hope you understand that we are all different. We do different things for different reasons. I honestly don't think that if a man made a pass at me when I was out and I informed him immediately that I was not female, but a man dressed as a female, that he would be offended/deceived, maybe a bit embarrassed, but not offended, what have I done to offend/deceive him? I did not solicit his pass. He would probably say "Oh, I'm sorry, you sure fooled me, and a laugh would probably follow. Now, if he said, I don't care and I would love to buy you dinner, well... it just doesn't get and better than that, although I would most likely politely decline, I did say most likely. I never say never.

[Edwina]

I am not referring to those who are trying to look like woman or look feminine but, as I had stated, only to those who try to have others believe they truly are which seems to be the definition of "passing" if understood from the posts here. Trying to look like a woman is great and those who can pull it off are awesome (no other word for it). Being treated like a woman is also great. I'd like to be treated that way much of the time. But trying to be treated that way under false pretenses...



I am sorry, I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make here.
Trying to be treated that way under false pretenses?

Edwina

[heidi99]

The truth is, when you try to pass you perpetrate a lie which could cause someone mental and emotional harm.

Not sure to which mental and emotional harm you are referring. Just a male gazing across the room trying to make first contact, I really don't think he has very much invested, so how exactly is he harmed? I'm sure there are those that would take what we do as an attempt to trick, but that belies a trait in their character, not necessarily ours. And how is he going to discover this "truth"? By looking under our skirt, I'd say he has some behaviors that represent a far larger danger to society than our crossdressing does.

I can only say for myself (but I think I am not likely the only one) that passing represents a "job" well done (everyone here looks fantastic, and that takes a lot of effort!), and the minimization of the likelihood of having to experience discrimination, and as close as one is going to get to actually try on a different identity. I think actors do it because it is an escape, as well as a chance to study one's own character from a different vantage point. Oh, yeah. Almost forgot. It's also FUN, ya dig? :p

[crusadergirl]

I don't really try to pass all that hard and i don't think of myself as a gg or a cd. The only thing that definds me is girlprodigy but i only date women. I don't claim to be a real girl but if i'm dressed as one thats what i am on that day. But i do get what your saying about tricking ppl into thinking we are real females. I probably stand alone on what i believe and i wouldn't trick anybody into thinking i was a real girl.

[Joann0830]

:2c: The expression to pass is not that we are or want to lie who we are, its just that we do want not to be pointed out and just blend in. As far as the clothing we wear, I once wrote an article on clothing in fact for my psych course that stated that "what is male and what is female". The article shows from revolutionary time to present clothes have always been manufactured to what appeals to men and woman from the high heel shoes from the revolutionary times and white stockings worn by males to the present where woman wear mens underwear and mens shirts and ties, are they all trying to hide who they really are and pretending to be men. Everyone is just going with fashion which is a large industry, We are just expressing ourselves in what we wear as it is acceptable not that we lied and want everybody to think we are woman. We all know who we are but just wear what is acceptable in everyday life. BTW our forefathers wore High heels, white stockings, ruffled shirts earrings and long hair and sometimes wigs. I my self dont judge people by what they wear, I look at who they are and learned to try to understand who they are.
In regards to a female 14 trying to act like she is 19 she is trying to be accepted as an adult because most people tend to not pay attention or listen to children
Joann083:straightface:

[docrobbysherry]

I do it because it's fun and I can pull it off...I suspect that if you were able to pass you'd be a lot less hung up about others who can.

Basically, most CD's want to "fool" themselves into thinking that we look like women. We all know we r not women, but that doesn't stop us from trying to look like them. Some of us do it better than others.

If we ALL could go out looking just like Charlize Theron, I'll wager very few of us would prefer to go out looking like " a man in a dress".

However, like the homely, huge GG, we all just do the best we can with what we have. U should consider that before you make such "judgemental" comments about others! GG's, CD's, or anyone!
RS

[PatriciaT]

This is indeed an interesting posting. I too have serious misgivings about passing being lying in a certain sense. I have felt guilty when talking to someone when I am en feme and discovering that that the person thinks I'm a women. The real problem is that in going out and about en femme, unless you do something to make it clear that you are a male, this type of telling a lie is almost unavoidable. It seems that most CDs want to express their feminine aspect by dressing as completely as they can when en femme. The other side of this is that if a CD is read, a very embarrassing and painful situation can arise. Can you see the contradiction here. It seems to be a no win situation. I need to go out en femme all the way or it has no purpose. Fortunately I seem to accepted most times as a male en femme, but sometimes I pass.

[marny]

To compare who you think the people here are with fourteen year old girls is a mistake. Most of us would like to be 18 to 24 year old girls!

[Joann0830]

I have read some more posts written after mine and My own feeling is that I am not trying to fool myself or lie to myself or others when I wear female clothing or makeup or jewelry, I am just allowing my feminine feelings to rise to the top and allow allow my feminine side to enjoy what I like to wear isn't that what Crossdressing is about and that is to enhance what beauty we were born with. I have seen males go in and have a manicure and get clear nail polish put on their nails and even have their eyebrows waxed and don't some men have their hair colored and now comes the WHAT IF words, What if a male did some of the other things that only a female could do like where a corset, dangling earrings, a little makeup to cover up the age spots. Why is it that men cannot shave their legs or their body hair if they feel they want to or where higher heel shoe then average (which most professional dancers do) again I say we are so been brainwashed into believing that you cannot do that or you are a sissy or only girls can do that. I laugh as I know a Pro football player who told me that he shaves his legs so if while playing ball he cuts his leg or scratches his leg it is easy to treat and he does not get infections. We are so caught up in the world of what is mens and what is womans. I know men who have come out of the Military, and retired Law Enforcement who now let there hair grow long as they said they could not do before. You have to create an image of looking groomed and staying that way. Image is what we perceive to be the way we are accepted and will always be that way. Joann0830:straightface:

[JoanAz]

What it amounts to is, We want to be SEEN but not NOTICED,
:happy:

[LACD]

I agree with JoanAZ. I would love to go shopping or to a movie or to dinner while dressed. I would be great to just go about daily business and not attract any negative waves. Where I live that would be almost impossible except this time of year(Mardi Gras). Just being able to dress and sit and talk to wife is a great feeling. She lets me know how I look and lately has been really supportive. In my mind I call that passing. I know deep down I would never pass as a GG, but I would really like to one day. I know I am a male but reall enjoy what time I have while dressed. I would really like to be able to dress a lot more than I do now, then that way I would be more practiced in the feminine ways. I hope one day to be where I can dress openly and not rile people up. Maybe when I retire.(And I don't mean new tires on the truck)

[Lisa Golightly]

I haven't met a person yet who has passed as genetic in my eyes... Not even me... well especially me! :rolleyes: Any bloke fishing in these waters knows what he's after... Unless he's braindead, blind or never met a woman.

People accept you or they don't... The secret is not to give a damn either way.

[Kate Simmons]

Hey, the last guy who put his hand up my dress got smacked. Not good getting on Sal's bad side. To quote David Banner:"Don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me if I'm angry." (I can turn "green" pretty quick). The point is I make no bones about who I really am up front. This is mostly a fun thing for myself and an art form and I certainly don't pretend to be a woman, just a person who dresses a little different sometimes to have fun.

More than once I've had to pull out the old license to prove who I really am to both men and women. I don't think I'm that convincing really, I think it has more to do with their blood alcohol level at the time :heehee:. Plus I dance like a girl and they don't see how I can do that. I'm also friendly and out going which are typical traits for gals rather than guys and am always trying to get folks on the dance floor.

Bottom line is everyone is different as are human beings in general and everyone has different motivations for what they do. Mine is to have fun being myself and if I can make someone's day in the process, all the better. Too much "gloom and doom" in the world already. Life is what we make it really.:happy:

[Nicki B]

I have read some more posts written after mine and My own feeling is that I am not trying to fool myself or lie to myself or others when I wear female clothing or makeup or jewelry, I am just allowing my feminine feelings to rise to the top and allow allow my feminine side to enjoy what I like to wear isn't that what Crossdressing is about and that is to enhance what beauty we were born with.

But Joann, do you call that 'passing'? :strugglin

I have some sympathy with Aeslyn's initial point about are we trying to fool people (including ourselves) - but I disagree how far she takes it and how you differentiate between those who are really women - I believe there's a wide, blurry area inhabited by those of us who are uncomfortable being seen as totally, or partially, male.

But I do think the people who get most hurt by obsessing over 'passing', and not just allowing ourselves to be accept who we are, is ourselves - not those who might fancy what they see?

[Violetgray]

Well, for me personally, I seek to be as beautiful as I can be, and passing would be just a by-product of that...

[Nicki B]

But does beauty = passing, or passing = beautiful?? :strugglin

Is it only worth passing, if you can pass as a beautiful woman?

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Well, for me personally, I seek to be as beautiful as I can be, and passing would be just a by-product of that...


I second this emotion, sis!

[Joann0830]

in the initial post I guess that the question on passing is whether we want someone to accept us but in My own way of being I dont care who accepts me or not as I am me and I refuse to change and wont. When I dress I dress
for me and love the feel of the clothing and style of clothing and the freedom of some of the clothing. I have often said we have been dictated to by the garment designers as to what is male and what is female and what is accepted. As far as the makeup I just call that vain on my part as I like to look nice. I wear daily a pair of stretch black pants elastic waist which I bought at kmart in the Ladies section and a pair of nu balance womans sneakers because I liked the design on them. Also my post earrings which I wear every day in male mode, as they say and its funny as nobody questions whether they are female clothing. I guess its up to the indidvidual if they want to pass as a female by seeing if they are accepted. I have learned in 59 years that there is no one that I have to get an approval from as to the way I dress. I Thank you Nicky for your point of view, Thank you again Joann0830:heehee:

[Bobby Anne]

It's merely snobbery from those who pass and those who think they do. Been there , guilty, done it! So Sorry.

[carhill2mn]

Speaking only for myself, I try my best to "pass". To me, this means being accepted as and treated as a lady, whether or not other people really believe that I am a woman. I do not wish to cause any embarrassment to myself or anyone else. I just want to enjoy the experiences. I do enjoy having someone
(nearly always other women) compliment me on my outfit or that I look nice.

[Nicki B]

in the initial post I guess that the question on passing is whether we want someone to accept us

Joann, I think we actually do very much agree with each other, but we're not talking the same language? There seems to be a much wider variation in what 'passing' means to people here, than I'm used to elsewhere.



To me, passing is absolutely NOT acceptance? Passing is when other people think we are born women (or men, for the F2Ms).

How can that 'invisibility' lead to any real acceptance, or awareness, of trans people?

Surely it's just hiding - and we strive to 'pass' out of a fear of being seen as different, either by others, or, most often, by ourselves?

A friend of mine calls it 'gender expectation' - and we are (mostly) products of a society which only allows two genders.. :hmmm:

[Genifer Teal]

I haven't ready any lengthy answers yet. Here is my simple answer. We are trying our best to look like women. If someone believes we are one, that is the equivalent of getting a gold star for a job well done. If we can convice someone we are a woman then we must have done a pretty good job.

Gen

[Eugenie]

I do try to pass to the best of my capabilities, while of course knowing it is not realistic... :o

In my case the reason I try "passing" is to be able to go out in public without getting immediately recognized as a Crossdresser and avoid the name calling froms stupid people... Yes that is still rather frequent to find people who react like that.

Im not trying to deceive people by doing it as I have no specific goals other than walking in the streets, going to restaurants with "sisters".

In fact there is one domain where I have the feeling of deceiving my friends it is when I haven't done a coming out to them... I think this is a bad act of deception. Yet I'm not ready to do my coming out with all of them, even though I've done it a few that really count...

:hugs:
Eugenie

[LA CINDY LOVE]

From what I got from some if you try to pass then you are out to fool people, trick people and to lie to people but you have people who do that every day...............and they are not even cross dresser.

And if your read what Linnea has to say

[QUOTE=linnea;1174974]"The truth is, when you try to pass you perpetrate a lie which could cause someone mental and emotional harm.

Just because a cross dresser takes pride in the way they look dose not make them fake or a national health crisis.


LA CINDY LOVE

[jennifer41356]

Passing? Why?

So, from reading this site, it seems to me that when people refer to "passing" they refer not only to dressing fully as a women and acting and feeling like one. Not only to the overall mannerism and characteristics. But to taking on that appearance to the point where we make others believe we are a woman. Make them believe that we are something we are not. That they can look up our skirts and, sure enough, there will be that sweet feminine spot. That we want to trick or fool them in to believing that we not only have the look, but all the right equipment for the job as well.

what?...oh please

But we don't.

Isn't "passing" really a lie and in that way isn't it wrong to try to pass. It is tricking others to view you as something other than what you are that could lead them to ultimately feel very uncomfortable... or worse.

maybe to you it is, but to those who want to be female and are happiest when they are, then what do you expect them to do?



To use another example of what is really the same thing...
A 14 y/o dresses and acts like she is 19 to get the attention of an older male. Wouldn't we all lecture her about such actions. She is pretending she is something that she is not which can lead to complications for her or others.
An example of such a girl is my former next door neighbor. At 14 everyone thought she was 21. She never lied about her age, it was just how she naturaly looked and acted. A Mormon Missionary once even considered getting her address so that he could write her and see where it would lead... till I told him she was 14. But imagine how he then felt, at 22 and being very infatuated with a 14 y/o girl.

not the same thing

Put yourselves in that situation. Be the guy the 14 y/o girl is attempting to be with. You don't know how old she really is and you think she is beautiful and wonderful and everything you desire. How do you feel when you learn her real age? You'd feel wronged, maybe even used. You would feel very uncomfortable and even disgusted with yourself for having felt that way cause you just don't think it is right to view someone that young in such a way. You would feel like there is something wrong with you. All those horrible words that are associated with such things and people automatically spring to mind. But she is the one who knowingly lied to you, didn't she do something wrong? Isn't it her fault? She passed as being older. A court wouldn't convict you cause you didn't know. But still... you convict yourself.

there are ways to find out how old she is, just like if someone were to ask me privately or because they want to learn more about us, then I would tell


Is it then any different when a guy who is totally heterosexual sees a beautiful woman and is attracted to her? Later he learns that she is really a man who tries and succeeds at passing as a woman. When he learns the truth is he any less justified for holding the lie against that person? Is he any less justified for being very uncomfortable over the whole situation? And is the CD any less responsible or to blame.

no, I am am only out to make myself happy

The truth is, when you try to pass you perpetrate a lie which could cause someone mental and emotional harm. Beyond that, however, is the truth that you are not a woman. You are a man wearing some clothes. I don't think that any clothing should be considered women's or men's and that we should just wear the clothing we are comfortable in. But since the world sees it differently... you are a man wearing women's clothing. We are CD's, not women. What's that saying similar to this... something about wolves and sheep.

I may not be a "woman", but I can dress like one and act like one...its my life

Truthfully, we are all beautiful people. I, for example, don't bother to wear make up. It hides truth which I believe to be beauty. You can show me any two girls of any age, race, nationality, blah blah, etc.... one of which is wearing make-up and the other not and I will always tell you I think the one without make up is more beautiful.

your opinion

So why do we put some much importance on passing? Do any of use have any more or any less respect or admiration for the the Passing CD then for the one who doesn't. Wearing women's clothes is not a lie, that is a part of who we are. But we are not actually woman... we do not have those body parts. We might want to, but obviously not enough to actually make that change. The 24 hours as a woman thread someone made, that's been my dream since i was about 17 - to be able to change at will from male to female. But I can't, I am a guy, so I would never lie about that. But I have had someone act like she was something she was not so that I would be with her. I know how I felt when I fell in love with one person only to discover that person really didn't exist. This has made me quite sensitive to such issues and left me believing fervently that we should not actively try to be something we are not. This really does only cause harm to others.[/QUOTE]

this again is your opinion, I dont have to agree just like you dont have to agree with me. I dont know why this is so important to you. life is too short to worry about things like this , I like going out as a girl and I will continue to do so, its tthe closest i can be to being a woman that this world has offered to me...my :2c::D:D:D:D

[sami1952]

first of all,i don't dress to try and fool others in thinking that i'm a women,i dress mostly because it's what i feel inside,the desire to dress and feel like a women,only to satify myself.if i just happen to pass a women that i have accomplished something very important to me, to feel like a women.

[Sophie_C]

(Please do not misunderstand me in this. It's not that I think any of you are doing anything wrong but that I think this is something worth thinking about when you try to "pass". Also, I think it's more important for every person to be who they are. For us that is a wolf in sheep's clothes.)

Passing? Why?

So, from reading this site, it seems to me that when people refer to "passing" they refer not only to dressing fully as a women and acting and feeling like one. Not only to the overall mannerism and characteristics. But to taking on that appearance to the point where we make others believe we are a woman. Make them believe that we are something we are not. That they can look up our skirts and, sure enough, there will be that sweet feminine spot. That we want to trick or fool them in to believing that we not only have the look, but all the right equipment for the job as well.

But we don't.

Isn't "passing" really a lie and in that way isn't it wrong to try to pass. It is tricking others to view you as something other than what you are that could lead them to ultimately feel very uncomfortable... or worse.

To use another example of what is really the same thing...
A 14 y/o dresses and acts like she is 19 to get the attention of an older male. Wouldn't we all lecture her about such actions. She is pretending she is something that she is not which can lead to complications for her or others.
An example of such a girl is my former next door neighbor. At 14 everyone thought she was 21. She never lied about her age, it was just how she naturaly looked and acted. A Mormon Missionary once even considered getting her address so that he could write her and see where it would lead... till I told him she was 14. But imagine how he then felt, at 22 and being very infatuated with a 14 y/o girl.

Put yourselves in that situation. Be the guy the 14 y/o girl is attempting to be with. You don't know how old she really is and you think she is beautiful and wonderful and everything you desire. How do you feel when you learn her real age? You'd feel wronged, maybe even used. You would feel very uncomfortable and even disgusted with yourself for having felt that way cause you just don't think it is right to view someone that young in such a way. You would feel like there is something wrong with you. All those horrible words that are associated with such things and people automatically spring to mind. But she is the one who knowingly lied to you, didn't she do something wrong? Isn't it her fault? She passed as being older. A court wouldn't convict you cause you didn't know. But still... you convict yourself.

Is it then any different when a guy who is totally heterosexual sees a beautiful woman and is attracted to her? Later he learns that she is really a man who tries and succeeds at passing as a woman. When he learns the truth is he any less justified for holding the lie against that person? Is he any less justified for being very uncomfortable over the whole situation? And is the CD any less responsible or to blame.

The truth is, when you try to pass you perpetrate a lie which could cause someone mental and emotional harm. Beyond that, however, is the truth that you are not a woman. You are a man wearing some clothes. I don't think that any clothing should be considered women's or men's and that we should just wear the clothing we are comfortable in. But since the world sees it differently... you are a man wearing women's clothing. We are CD's, not women. What's that saying similar to this... something about wolves and sheep.

Truthfully, we are all beautiful people. I, for example, don't bother to wear make up. It hides truth which I believe to be beauty. You can show me any two girls of any age, race, nationality, blah blah, etc.... one of which is wearing make-up and the other not and I will always tell you I think the one without make up is more beautiful.

So why do we put some much importance on passing? Do any of use have any more or any less respect or admiration for the the Passing CD then for the one who doesn't. Wearing women's clothes is not a lie, that is a part of who we are. But we are not actually woman... we do not have those body parts. We might want to, but obviously not enough to actually make that change. The 24 hours as a woman thread someone made, that's been my dream since i was about 17 - to be able to change at will from male to female. But I can't, I am a guy, so I would never lie about that. But I have had someone act like she was something she was not so that I would be with her. I know how I felt when I fell in love with one person only to discover that person really didn't exist. This has made me quite sensitive to such issues and left me believing fervently that we should not actively try to be something we are not. This really does only cause harm to others.


Honey, if telling yourself that makes you feel more comfortable not passing, be my guest.

This thread comes off much more of a blog than a matter of debate, really...

[AmandaM]

I'm just being me. If I pass, great. If I don't, that just tells me that what I feel inside is not reflected on the outside, so it's kinda sad. As far as others go, I see lots of people trying to be something they're not. I see kids wearing gang clothes to look tough, women wearing junior skirts to look young. They are different from me. I "really am" this way.

[Tree GG]

In my opinion, Aselyn, you have very clearly expressed a valid point and perspective; whether anyone acknowledges their responsibility or not. We can certainly never control how others will react to anything we do or say, but I think each of us should at least be willing to appreciate the other perspective and recognize it's validity.

[JoAnnDallas]

As CDer's that go out dressed, we will from time to time be read as a man in a dress. As long as others do not make a fuss or repect the presentation I am presenting, then I am happy and I don't care if that is passing or not. I am not hurting anyone dressed.

[Jackie67]

I have been dressing gurly most of my life and passing has never occured to me I just assume that I do look and act femme when dressed.:2c:

[Claire3]

I pass for me and i dont actually care what anyone else thinks.I may be missing some minor points,but hey,Claire lives.:p