Two Spirit? what does it really mean?

[Sejd]

I believe that I am a "Two Spirit " person. But what does it really mean? I am a man who dress and identify as a woman. Looking at Native American history around this phenomenon, I feel much at ease that I am two spirit. If you would like to explore this, non western medicine, approach to our condition join me at the tenth annual dance at Wolf Creek in Oregon this summer. for more info, visit my blog at : www.sejdwoman.blogspot.com
peace
Sejd

[Joann0830]

My first spirit is I believe that of my Great Great Grandmother who I really look a lot like and the other is that of a indian medicine man as I was told to me by a childhood friends Grandfather who was an american Indian medicine man who told me in honesty that I have the spirit of the Bear or power. When I was much older I went once to see someone who read my cards she saw the woman who looked like me and also asked me why I was there as I too have the power. I was once given Medicine cards from my childhood friend who is now the medicine man in his tribe. Glad to say my daughter has the same which she has asked why does she feel and sometimes see things and I tell her all the time be afraid of the living not the dead. BTW I still do my Medicine cards Joann0830:straightface:

[Kate Simmons]

This is hard to explain Sejd, it's just something we know deep down. The two spirits are the male and female fractions of our essense and are soul "mates". When they reuinte and come together, we have the power to create. Usually this happens when the Earth bound fraction passes on because the other fraction is in the higher plane. Soon however, this "reality" program will be completed and we will be re-united once and for all.:happy:

[Felix]

I present as a man but I have a very strong female spirit which I never wish to loose because the two sides of me work very well together one keeping the other in balance. At the moment they are not in balance and it like one is fighting the other for control. I really need them to come back together and work as one again and then I will be myself again. So yeah I do believe ya can have the both going on xx Felix :hugs:

[melissaK]

Generalizing, the American Indian concept of two spirited people, those with male and female traits, originated long before European culture impacted their cultures. No one documented the tribes customs and practices until long after they were significantly stressed, altered and displaced by Europeans so reliable documentation is scarce.

From what I have read, generally, American Indians two spirit culture included what we might call gays, crossdressers, and transsexuals. But the concept was not universal among the tribes. It varied just as their languages and tribal cultures did. (Be careful to read only peer reviewed anthropological and historical papers for your two-spirit info - the web is full of embellished explanations that drift the truth, particularly in that they ignore the major belief differences between various tribes).

In any case, two-spiritedness is a concept developed in a culture without HRT or SRS available. I ask this next question with only the queery of a philosopher, not with any judgment in mind about any path any of us on this board has chosen to follow. Can one truly follow the path of a two spirit and undergo cross sex hormone therapy?

hugs,
'lissa

[Valeria]

Generalizing, the American Indian concept of two spirited people, those with male and female traits, originated long before European culture impacted their cultures. No one documented the tribes customs and practices until long after they were significantly stressed, altered and displaced by Europeans so reliable documentation is scarce.

From what I have read, generally, American Indians two spirit culture included what we might call gays, crossdressers, and transsexuals. But the concept was not universal among the tribes. It varied just as their languages and tribal cultures did. (Be careful to read only peer reviewed anthropological and historical papers for your two-spirit info - the web is full of embellished explanations that drift the truth, particularly in that they ignore the major belief differences between various tribes).
Precisely. There is no "one" two spirit concept - AFAICT, it meant different things to different tribes and in differing times and places.

In modern times, it has been coopted to mean gay, bisexual, genderqueer, third gendered, and transgendered (and probably other things). I've known people of Native American descent who were not particularly pleased with having this part of their culture coopted by other people, btw.


In any case, two-spiritedness is a concept developed in a culture without HRT or SRS available. I ask this next question with only the queery of a philosopher, not with any judgment in mind about any path any of us on this board has chosen to follow. Can one truly follow the path of a two spirit and undergo cross sex hormone therapy?
Perhaps not, but I certainly am in no position to say.

I do know that I don't seem to meet any of the popular explanations of the concept. I just happen to have been born in a body that wasn't initially congruent with my spirit (a problem I have since remedied).

[Felix]

I think what I find hard with this whole thing is that to be how I want I have to fit in a box that maybe I don't want to fit in neatly. This means I probably won't be able to get help without going private. I'm not absolutely sure yet but hopefully will be able to find out more when I see someone professional who knows. I do feel I have two things going on and it is a struggle. But I do understand why people from these cultures can be annoyed at people using labels and claiming them to be theirs when this has been out there for years xx Felix :hugs:

[Nicki B]

But what does it really mean?

I don't pretend to know in detail what was meant by it - a friend of mine, who has Kleinfelter's, has spent a lot of time exploring and researching it in person with native Americans and I don't think he really knows, either?

It's a useful concept - but we are what we are, we should perhaps beware of taking other people's labels and making them ours, in case we cause offence?

[Sejd]

Being "Two Spirit" is in essence just another box! or, you can say, it's also a way to express onself. I personally like the term because it encompass my male as well as my femaleness. As far as research on the matter, it seems like the term "Two spirit" in itself is rather new. The more I put myself into any "Box" the more often I find myself trapped. It would be perfect if I never had to explain myself to anyone, If I could always be satisfied in the answer "I'm just me, that's who I am". But people always want to know. "Why do you dress as a woman? Did you have an operation? Are you a Lesbian? all questions which can result in me (us) feeling very special, when in fact we are not. We are just us!!! End of story. In the meantime, finding my own little space in the colorful quilt which makes up our community, I'm pretty happy with the idea of a "Two Spirit".
Sejd

[Miss Tessa]

The Native Americans didn't have the condition down either.

They were taking wild guesses just like modern medicine.

Gender is on a continuum. And some people are two spirit. Some also identify as "third gender". That's why you have your different kinds of TG people.

[Sejd]

Hi Tessa
I think you are right. I was having a drink last night with a friend who see herself as what she call the Z gender. She see her Trans-ism as a playfull state of being. I like that. I don't like to be put in a specific box either. No offence to anyone please! I guess what I am saying is that I experience my "Two Spirit-ness" as a more fluid and translucent way of expressing myself.
hugs
Sejd

[kerrianna]

Can one truly follow the path of a two spirit and undergo cross sex hormone therapy?


I think you could, but how that impacts on your feelings of being twin-spirited would probably be different in each individual. In some cases it might cause the male side to recede to the degree that one might not feel so 'twin'. I think it would depend on the individual and the degree of balance they have already.

For what it's worth, when I first began unravelling my shrouds of deception I briefly embraced the notion of being twin-spirited. I like the concept. I think it would be cool. And maybe for a brief time I did feel twin spirited, but that layer peeled away too, and I've pretty much lost all connection and identification to my male side, except in the incidental that comes from 'passing' as male.

The rest of me, from the core out, feels pretty predominately female and that's a really comfortable place for me right now.

Because these changes have come so rapidly and thoroughly, I'm hesitant to think or state it stops here - that I'll live out the rest of my days with my female spirit dominant, although from here I would say that I will. But I'm shapeshifting and I'm not sure if I'm done yet.

That's why I'm willing to take my time, as much as it pains me most days, to find my way. I just wish I had started sooner.

I'd love to return to that concept of being twin, but I have a strong feeling it was just another waypoint along the journey to womanhood... or wherever else it may be that I end up.

I'm glad you have found yourself Sejd. Your happiness and personal truths are all that matter. We are all on our own journeys and often spot each other crossing our courses. :hugs:

[Sejd]

Thanks Kerrianna
I like your quote:
Because these changes have come so rapidly and thoroughly, I'm hesitant to think or state it stops here - that I'll live out the rest of my days with my female spirit dominant, although from here I would say that I will. But I'm shapeshifting and I'm not sure if I'm done yet.
I like it, because lif is such a never ending journey for me as well, and honnestly, I have no clue as to what comes later. I do feel very much like you in the sense that I live more and more in my comfort zone as a female expression.
thanks for sharing
hugs
Sejd