Marriage and Transition

[C.J.]

So. How to start?


I guess I should start by stating I'm bisexual, lol. I'm currently engaged to a wonderful man whom I wouldn't trade for the world. I'm also a transman (in case some of you didn't know).


This brings me to a question for all of the other gay (or lesbian) and bisexual transmen and transwomen here (straight guys and girls can answers as well), especially those who live in the USA...


Marriage and transition. Gay marriage is illegal here in the USA (except in Massachusetts, I think?).


What are the details of transitioning with marriage?


As in, how far can we go with transition before the marriage is legally deemed "gay" to the public, and it becomes illegal (prohibited if not yet married, or annuled if currently married)?


Is it illegal after HRT alone?

After HRT AND top surgery?

After HRT, top surgery, AND bottom surgery?

Or only after changing your gender on legal documents?


This is a huge issue for me (as I want to get - and stay - legally married), and I was wondering what the specifics are.


Thanks everyone,

- C.J.

[Maggie Kay]

Hi Charlie,

It seems that some of the legal issues vary a lot from state to state in the US. There seems to be uneven application of gender issues at the federal level such as SS and passport gender requirements. Some say they have a defined surgical procedure others say they got theirs changed with a lesser procedure and a letter from the surgeon and therapist.

I find this area very muddled too. When I asked my therapist he referred me to this site:

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/

[Sally24]

From what I've read, if you are legally a female, and he is legally a man, then you can get married. After the marraige is official it continues to be legal even if you change your gender on paper.

[GypsyKaren]

I'm a Post-Op and now legally female, and I was told that our marriage will continue to be based on my gender status at the time of our wedding, my SRS will have no effect on it...but it wouldn't hurt to check with a lawyer in your state.

Karen Starlene :star:

[C.J.]

Thanks for the replies, girls.


Hi Charlie,

It seems that some of the legal issues vary a lot from state to state in the US. There seems to be uneven application of gender issues at the federal level such as SS and passport gender requirements. Some say they have a defined surgical procedure others say they got theirs changed with a lesser procedure and a letter from the surgeon and therapist.

I find this area very muddled too. When I asked my therapist he referred me to this site:

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/

I couldn't find anything relating to my state (Pennsylvania) here, at least not about marriage, but thank you for the link Maggie :happy:

Karen, may I ask where you're from?

- C.J.

[GypsyKaren]

Indiana, near Chicago. One thing I have discovered in my research is that this is a subject that really hasn't been handled or brought up that much, I think it's something that many really don't know what to do about yet.

Karen Starlene :star:

[melissaK]

From what I've read, if you are legally a female, and he is legally a man, then you can get married. After the marriage is official it continues to be legal even if you change your gender on paper.

Yea, I think this is right too. But, it is the United States of America and there's 50 different sets of rules governing domestic relationships (51 counting the District of Columbia). I don't think any state has faced enough cases of post marriage transisitions to have much in the way of rules ('laws') about this. I'm sure there are plenty of folks with opinions about it, but that's a far cry from a law about it.

I can't think of a situation where a 'State' can seek a divorce for its citizens unless perhaps one partner to the marriage becomes a ward of the State.

I can think of cases where people authorized to perform marriages were found to lack legal authority, then the State can refuse to recognize a marriage certificate executed by that person, or a ceremony performed by that person.

And if one party to a marriage wanted a divorce, or possibly an annulment depending on the laws of their state, because their spouse transistioned, I suspect that would be quite sufficient legal grounds to get that done.

What "the law" choses to recognize about ones status as male or female is a legal fact, not a scientific fact. All the surgery in the world doesn't change your chromosomes. XY is always XY. XX always XX. Right now we are in a period of social change, and the rules deciding how to resolve the 'legal facts' are being written, and changed.

Which IMHO is why its important to offer some political support to groups that are allied with your desires.

hugs,
'lissa

[Tristan]

What will happen to my existing marriage?

What happens to an existing marriage when one of the spouses changes sex depends to a great extent on what happened before and during the marriage.

Transsexuality and transvestism are grounds for divorce in Pennsylvania, particularly if the offended spouse was never made aware of the other party's transgenderism before marriage. Support may be awarded in favor of the offended spouse even if that spouse abandons the marital home because of the transgenderism.

Should the spouses decide to remain together, however, their marital status is even more uncertain. Pennsylvania does not recognize same-sex marriages and has declared such marriages void. As long as the transgendered spouse remains pre-operative, the marriage remains valid. A marriage after surgery, though, lies in untested waters. There is no existing case law in New Jersey or Pennsylvania dealing with the status of a post-operative transgender same-sex marriage. Presently, as a practical matter, such marriages are treated as being valid. This situation is subject to change at any time.

For more information about transgender marriages in generally, see the marriage article posted separately on this web site.



http://www.holtesq.com/TG_FAQS.htm

[Katie Ashe]

Time to chime in here. I've lived in MA all of my life (Except Military Service).
How it work here is what ever is on your first (Original) Birth Certificate is what matters. If your a girl and engaged to man, your considered Hetro marriage for the rest of your life. You are allowed to ammend for new copy of BC but can not rid of first one. Most states will not allow you to ammend or change any info. It is not illegal after any procedures no matter what they are. Your whole life is dictated by your BC, even if you live the rest of your life as a male cat, your still a human girl... get the idea. Because MA currently allows all people to marry it woun't matter what you do with whom. You must be a resident for 6 months I believe for citizenship in the state, then you can clam taxes and marry/file jointly. some notable sites:
MARRIAGE & RELATIONSHIP RECOGNITION (http://www.hrc.org/issues/marriage.asp)
Legal Planning (http://www.hrc.org/issues/transgender/1419.htm)

and my favorite site: wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage)

Hope some of this helps, Best Wishes.

[Kieron Andrew]

and my favorite site: wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage)

Wikipedia can NEVER be taken as gospel! its can be amended by anyone who see's fit to do so at any time

[Valeria]

Okay, as someone that married her lesbian life-partner before she physically (and legally) transitioned, I should probably offer an opinion.

Please don't quote the sections of this post that have biographical information. Thanks!

The short answer is that no one really knows. The lawyers will tell you that there is no legal precedent for terminating a marriage under conditions similar to one partner legally changing sex after marriage. What they won't tell you (unless you press them) is that there is also not a lot of legal precedent for preserving the marriage. It's very much a grey area.

I've had more than one complication post-transition with my marriage not being readily recognized. I've had to produce documentation to prove we are married on occasion (something no straight couple would ever be asked to do). To add insult, the state refused to change my name on my marriage certificate (despite the state law on name changes clearly indicating that they should). After consulting with a local judge, my lawyer advised against my filing a petition to get this corrected (she was afraid they'd invalidate my marriage as a same sex marriage and set a bad precedent). Actually, she didn't just advise against it - she made it clear that she wouldn't file such a petition on my behalf. She consulted with one of the major LGBT legal rights groups too - this wasn't an uninformed viewpoint, they didn't want this matter pursued in court.

We've had a baby post-transition, and the state bureaucrats refused to accept our marriage as valid for purposes of my being a parent to our baby. I'm still not listed on my daughter's birth certificate, even though we are "legally" married and (through the miracles of cryogenic sperm storage) I'm actually also a biological parent. I'm apparently going to have to go to court to get this straightened out. I may have to do a second-parent adoption of my own child.

The degree to which the federal government will recognize post-transition same-sex marriages is also highly ambiguous - even if you live some place like Massachusetts. There are some indications that the feds will recognize your marriage as valid if your state considers you a valid opposite-sex couple, but not if your state considers you a same-sex couple. But honestly, the real point of this is that no one really knows, the rules are to some degree unwritten and subject to change, and we all desperately need state and federal recognition of same-sex marriage to clear up this mess.

Truth be told, we've found being married to be more of a hassle than a benefit. If we had it to do over, we wouldn't get married. If I lived in Massachusetts, it wouldn't be so awkward, as there are plenty of local same-sex couples that are married. Though I've talked with same-sex couples from Mass. who say that it's arguably not worth the complications there either (because of the lack of recognition by the feds and other states). :sad:

FWIW, lots of states don't recognize HRT and top surgery as being sufficient to change a birth certificate. In fact, Illinois adopted their rules that require genital surgery from a surgeon licensed in the USA after a trans man was discovered to have changed his documentation and married a woman without having bottom surgery (thanks to a vague surgical letter).


What "the law" choses to recognize about ones status as male or female is a legal fact, not a scientific fact. All the surgery in the world doesn't change your chromosomes. XY is always XY. XX always XX.
Which means what?

I'm not just legally female, I'm also anatomically female. All of my medical providers list me as female as well, and when I get lab results they are always compared to a female baseline. So I couldn't care less what my chromosomes look like - that's of no relevance to me.


You are allowed to ammend for new copy of BC but can not rid of first one. Most states will not allow you to ammend or change any info. It is not illegal after any procedures no matter what they are. Your whole life is dictated by your BC, even if you live the rest of your life as a male cat, your still a human girl... get the idea.
Actually, to the contrary of what my original birth certificate said, I am legally female in every way.

I live in a different state than Jane, but my birth certificate lists me as female and has my legal female name on it. It gives no indication that it has been amended. The original birth certificate has been sealed. And I live in one of those conservative Southern "Red" states - lots of states are very progressive in this respect.