Scoring points to look female.

[Tracy_Victoria]

Been a long time since I started a post, but this one was bought about by charlotte cross's post.

Now the title is not about being a bitch, infact it far from it, it a system I tend to use myself and have explained to other Crossdressers and transvestites I have met and spoke too. I'm now rapily heading towards my 48 year of life on this planet, 39 of them I've spent as a crossdresser. Yep I started crossdressing at the age of 8, and first went out in public at the age of 15. (Stupid and down right dumb now when I look back at it, but I did it all the same)

It kind of angers me a little when I hear people say I could never pass in public. ANYONE CAN. However it's a case of how you pass, and what your doing, and passing people must remember is a thing that can be staged or graded, ie I'm not talking about passing of a rugby player of seven foot in busy town centre enviroment. however give him female clothes a dark night and distance, and people from distance would only see the woman, not the man underneath!

Woman (thankfully) come in all shapes and sizes, and as much as there are the stunners, there are those that arn't. Woman come with big feet, large hands, some are really tall, whilst other are petite, some are very masculine, and there are even real girls out there that have to wear wigs or heavy clothes even in the summer months, and yet when we see these people we never doubt that there woman, do we?

Hence I have always tried to dress by copying and mimicing others simular to me. and I've always refered to it as a point system on a scale if you like. whilst it difficult to give each different item a actual point value, there are ways of improving your dressed appearance, just by adding points. the more points you can add (or the more masculing points you can cancel out) the easier you will find it to pass.

let imagine 2 different people both are crossdressers infact lets say there twins (ie A and B), and both have the same outfits and accessories to wear there is no difference in there wardrobe for today.

Twin A gets dressed, it takes him 20 minutes to fully dress and do his make up, and he is now ready to walk out of the door.

Twin B has also got dressed, but it's taken him an hour! why! okay he spent 15 extra minutes creating a false cleavage, and has been able to unbutton his shirt so he presents quite an impresive bust line that look very real. he also spent 5 minutes extra tapeing and lifting his eye brows to lift them, shape them and make them look more feminine. before applying his wig, he spent 10 minutes back combing and styling it in to a better style, to suit him more. lastly just before he admitted to himself he was ready, he spent 10 minutes in front of the mirror relaxing and getting used to his new look, doing a bit of preening, and just boosting his confidence that he did look the part.

So now ask yourself this which twin will pass easer, Twin A or Twin B, and if you say twin A, you have not got the point of this! there is a sales rule that is called the 6p rule and it's a good one to dress to, ie P,P,P,P,P,P! OR PRIOR PREPERARTION PREVENTS, P@@@ POOR PERFORMANCE!

There are many things you can do to prepare or enhance your dressing and improving your chances of passing without problems. ie little things can add so much, clean smart clothes to suit the enviroment your entering, nice nails (false or other wish) a well styled wig that doesn't look like a wig! and so on.

To me Passing is all about changing things on me, than make me male, and cancelling them out with more a feminine look than a masuline one. ie I have short cropped male hair, so I wear a wig to look more like a girl (obvious yes, but a point many actually miss is the actual basic reason of why we do it!) dressing up in woman clothing and accessories dosn't actually make us woman! But if we try to cancel out our masculine traces and make them look like feminine ones, then passing becomes easier. Just wearing the clothes doesn't do that!!!!

To end this post I'll cross examine my last dressing session, and the picture in my avitar is from that session. (bigger picture here on this link!)

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75334

So lets look at my transion from male to female. and how I changed or traded male points for female one. (it may look daft until we analyse it in depth) My male clothes changed for female one, I wear clothes that make me look more shaped. I added a female bustline, to enhance this shape (I sometime tape and present a cleavage, which then adds major fem points, men don't tend to have cleavages!)

I choose clothes to suit my day, long skirt, loose top to hide my shoulders, wearing heels makes me stand different and shapes my legs slightly (if you can see them) I used a special make up to hide my 5 o clock shadow, (it's not heavy but I still have one) it takes me 10 minutes more to do this, but it's 10 minutes well spent, I spent a few minutes pulling my brows up with tape, and then spent some time with my wig, I spend a few extra minutes with that trying to make it look real and ruffled over flat and false. ie hoping it looks like my own hair over me looking like I'm wearing a wig. Ie by just ensuring I have a clean and good make up, a Wig that doesn't look like a wig, and by adding female glasses I've tried to create the following to anyone that viewed me that I am in fact a real female by cancelling out my male points.

if you didn't understand the point of that last sentance, this was the points I cancelled out. By removing my five o clock shadow, I look smoothfaced like I've never shaved in my live (females don't have shadow) by making the wig look real, it's my hair, not a wig, it's girls hair, not that of a man. by raising and shaping my brow, it cancels out that look of man. and by wearing glasses, i'm saying look I have to wear these, I have been to the optisions and had my eyes tested. alone each one would never make people think I was a girl, but by adding them all together with my dressing in female clothes shoes, and womans accessories, they work together (I hope) to create the illusion, that I'm not a woman, but I'm more a woman, than the man I really Am.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it shows what I was driving at! ie We can all do lots of little thing to vastly improve our chances in the real world :)

Thanks all

[deja true]

Tracy, love your well thought out reminder that so much of a good job is in the preperation...

Have the right tools and, as the carpenters say, "Measure twice, cut once."

Respect & Love

deja

Wish I had enough extra pounds sometimes to make a nice cleavage, but I'm the skinny, stringbean type. 5'10" (thanks mom!), 135 lbs, but orangutan hairy (thanks dad!)

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Yep, taking the time to learn how to do things right, and applying that knowledge can go a long way outside of your front door.
Again, each of us is vastly different from the other so some things won't apply now or ever.
So work with what you have and carry a positive attitude wherever you go and you'll find the worl d amuch better place to live in.

Or as I like to say,

I do it because I CAN!

Zara

[slamddoger]

thank you for your post. it make sent. if you take time any one can pass

[Kate Simmons]

Those are very good suggestions Tracy and it's obvious you put a lot of positive effort into your appearance. I kind of started out taking a lot more time to get ready but have worked it down over the years and know what works best for me. Actually, it's more of I know what I can "get away with", so I do minimum prep whenever possible. Depends on where I'm going to be and what I'm going to do really, besides I tend to be a bit lazy at times, so "fake it' whenever I'm able to :heehee:.

Not everyone has that option however and it never hurts to take some time to put in that little "extra" touch here and there and that can go a long way towards satisfaction. What you say is true, however, and basically we get out of it what we put into it.:happy:

[Tracy_Victoria]

thank you for your post. it make sent. if you take time any one can pass

Hi Slamddoger

It's all to do with the context, in which we pass! A few months ago, I read a post in one of the sections here, from a guy with a full beard who passed out, not only that but had pictures showing us how.

Basically he had made a half face mask to cover the beard, (from a distance, and not a major one, it was very effective) and in make up, wig and clothes, unless you were up very close to him, you would never know the difference. Hence it's not our limitations that stop us, but how creative and daring we want to be to achive this goal. Personally I would have shaved the beard off, he didn't want to do that, hence his ability to pass is limited to doing so at a distance, but when out, he's still accepted for the womans image he present because he has disguised his main masculine points with one that appears more female

[Pamela Julie]

Tracy, your explanation is one of the best I have ever read. It explains the difference between crossdressing and transforming. I too agree everyone can pass. I can dress in drab clothing and from 200 yards, nobody would know what sex I am, so I guess I pass from that far away. With very minimal work I can pass from 50 yards. The best I can do, at this point I need more practice, is pass at 20 yards. My hands are large for a male, and quite muscular, so the best I can do for them is to not wear jewelry that may attract attention and wear something elsewhere to attract attention away from my hands. My voice is a deep baritone, no way can I pass here without surgery which is not an option. I practice speaking at a higher pitch and low volume so as to not sound false. I can only speak like that for several words at a time and it sounds like a deep female voice. Unfortunately I can not be understood in noisy conditions or far enough away to visually pass. Practice should help my voice and looks.

[Tracy_Victoria]

Tracy, your explanation is one of the best I have ever read.

Thanks Pamela

I try to be logical in things I do in life, crossdressing is just the same, it more a case of how hard your prepared to push the limits, over the limits pushing you.

Anything is possable, with effort and logic, to resolve the barriers or limitations in our way.

[GailTulane]

Tracy, thank you for the well-thought-out, thought-provoking, and helpful post.

[Tracy_Victoria]

Tracy, thank you for the well-thought-out, thought-provoking, and helpful post.

Glad I could help Gail. and also that it been of use to some people, I nearly trashed it several times, but decided to run with it! Because of yours and others positive comments about my views, I'm very glad I ran with it now.

Thanks all.

[CatAttack]

I think a big part of passing is body language too. The way you move determines your sex. If you look like a girl but move like a man, I don't think you could pass, no matter how prepared and feminine you look.

[Tracy_Victoria]

I think a big part of passing is body language too. The way you move determines your sex. If you look like a girl but move like a man, I don't think you could pass, no matter how prepared and feminine you look.

Sorry Katty

But I tend to disagree with that. confidence is a big part in passing, walking out as if you are what you are dressed like, ie an everyday woman will mean other looking on you as such. How ever the days of deportment and the Marilyn Monroe wiggle have generally passed us by! body language I agree is a very big thing, however many woman don't carry themselfs as they tended to years ago, and so I do believe you can enhance your mannerism but general people don't tend to notice.

I agree it is possable to mimic female posture, and manerism, but looks and confidence I feel are the main factor in passing out. most men wearing heals will by nature take smaller steps and that adds to the illusion, then being aware of other factors (like females tend to swing there arm at the elbow, whilst me do so at the shoulder) can also help, however most people now day only give others customary glances, and if everything looks right, they will just walk by and ignore you.

[Jennaie]

You could not have said it any better Tracy. A better title for this thread would be, "If you really want to pass, this is how it's done". Or "Hey rocky, watch me pull a woman out of my hat".

[Kate Simmons]

You could not have said it any better Tracy. A better title for this thread would be, "If you really want to pass, this is how it's done". Or "Hey rocky, watch me pull a woman out of my hat".But Rocky always said:"But that trick never works.' Hopefully he (June Foray actually) was wrong.:happy:

[Jennaie]

But Rocky always said:"But that trick never works.' Hopefully he (June Foray actually) was wrong.:happy:

I always remember Rocky saying, "Not again". :lol: Snagglepuss: Exit, stage left.

[Jennifer Giovannetta]

Tracy thank you for the explination. Another girl told me that it is in the confidence! She told me to act as if I belong there. I do not have the confidence yet to go out in a public place, although I have been out to TG freindly places. I am sorry to say that when I see a picture of myself, it is not hard to see that I am a man. For instance my face has masculine features such as my nose and my squarish jaw.. And I am not ready to use nail polish yet. Dont like it. But all of the things you have suggested make a lot of sense, and will help me in the future. Especially wearing glasses. Im going to try that!

[Deborah Jane]

Thanks Tracy, i really appreciate the advice, i,m hoping to do my first trip out soon and with your advice, hopefully it,ll be a success..wish me luck!!

[Tracy_Victoria]

Thanks Tracy, i really appreciate the advice, i,m hoping to do my first trip out soon and with your advice, hopefully it,ll be a success..wish me luck!!

Good luck Deborah.



Tracy thank you for the explination. Another girl told me that it is in the confidence! She told me to act as if I belong there. I do not have the confidence yet to go out in a public place, although I have been out to TG freindly places. I am sorry to say that when I see a picture of myself, it is not hard to see that I am a man. For instance my face has masculine features such as my nose and my squarish jaw.. And I am not ready to use nail polish yet. Dont like it. But all of the things you have suggested make a lot of sense, and will help me in the future. Especially wearing glasses. Im going to try that!

Jennifer

Your friend advised you wisely. Passing is all about learning to walk before you can run, and confidence is the biggest factor in doing so. if you sulk about, hidding from corner to corner, you will not be READ, but your actions will draw attention to yourself. Ive side this a few times on this site, but I'll say it again "No real girl would be sulking or creeping around a dark park at night!

3 simple tips for anyone wanting to pass.

1. Look good, look right. uses those points to your advantage, ie ball gowns for Tesco/Wallmart just don't look right, and it doesn't happen. Dress for the enviroment your in. It really doesn't matter if you look like the back of the bus, as long as you look like a female back of the bus.

2. Have a Plan and take small steps. Ask yourself why am I here, and what Am I doing. ie have meaning in your female role (even if it is Just "I'm going shopping!") go with a purpose and ask yourself would a real girl be doing this. Also don't try to achive big massive goals, set smaller ones. Head out to where no one knows you, ie not local. park in a car park, and just walk from one side to the other and back. then pass people at a distance, slowly bringing them closer, ie walking past you on the other side of the road, is very different from walking past each other on the same side of the road, and making eye contact. just set small goals, and pass them. if you don't draw attention move on to a slightly bigger task, if you feel you failed, ask yourself why, and then try again. Believe me you will have many hiccups including nailing yourself :D Ie one one of my first trips I was there, and got a good Evening from a guy I was walking past, only to open my big mouth and reply in a male voice!!!! DOH!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

3. Confidence is every thing, be the person you look like, not the person underneath. Remember your acting on a 360 degree stage, so your performance must be a good one, however with a female'lish look, confidence, and reason, I still believe anyone can pass, it just at what level they are able to do so, that counts.

Good luck with your adventures.

I thought this might help some of you take your first steps out. It's my bio I posted on another forum a few years ago now, but it tells you all about me, and my very first steps out in to the world. (even if the first ones were at a very early age!)

I hope it helps.

http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=71373&highlight=#71373

[Dalece]

That was great post, That was hitting the nail on the head. I relize why I work so hard and where the confidance comes in.

[Joann0830]

Tracy I am 59 soon to be 60 and I am in full agreement with you You summed it up very well. Joann0830:heehee::love:

[Tracy_Victoria]

But all of the things you have suggested make a lot of sense, and will help me in the future. Especially wearing glasses. Im going to try that!

Remember it not just glasses, but all those accessories that woman tend to use, all can be added to make your look, ie rings (wedding ring and engagement rings, other rings)earrings, watches, broaches, necklaces, bracelets. all add to the look, even if they are just cheap imatations over real gold. Matching shoes and handbags, boots with long skirts, all thoughts things that just go together, can be added to work for you.

Also it not difficult to get glasses with just clear lenses. ie not fitted with perscription lenses. it normal that retailers will sell you just the frames, and ebay is a great sorts of frames really cheap, all glasses tend to come with clear plastic lenses fitted. These lenses normally have printing on them whice can be removed with ease. just soak a cloth in nail varnish remover and rub the printing of, however polish well afterwards as the nail varnish remover will react with the plastic lens if you leave it in contact to long.

both the glasses in my avitar and profile picture, are FAKE! (I don't wear glasses.) :D:heehee::heehee::heehee::heehee::happy:

[darla_g]

I think the biggest thing that I notice when i see your pictures is someone that selects clothes, makeup, wigs & style that are age appropriate for women.

You wouldn't be out of place going to the mall or the hairdresser.

I think too many (especially new ) crossdressers find clothes etc. to titillate and they stick out like a sore thumb. Or if you are well over 6 ft where skirts that leave nothing to the imagination. It just doesn't work. Sorry

hey you're a class act!

[Michelle Hart]

Tracy, you really did an exellent job of explaining the "do's" and "dont's".

A few weeks back I was completly made up, casually for the afternoon. My wife asked me to go to Walmart for her and pick up a few things so I walked out to the car and just went. I did'nt sit in the parking lot for and hour to get up my nerve, I just went in. Like any woman would.

The point is with the right choices we can all be believable. To often many girls just don't know how to put an outfit together or what goes with what.

Some of us are so enamored with that ultra feminine look that we forget girls don't go to the mall in 6" heels. I have my club look and my daytime look. Each one is carfully crafted to be as average and normal as a real womans.

Only a small number of times that my wife and I have been out has someone asked her "Is she a real woman?" They were not sure and had doubt's that is where your point system has the most value.

On those rare times, I somehow lost points. But the presentation was still so good that I only lost a few. Each of us can take that as a positive step.

If someone is not sure what your true gender is, then they will probably default to your overall look.

[Ressie]

I think I could pass with a lot of work. I don't have the desire to leave the house (dressed) or the nerve presently.

[Violetgray]

I do NOT think that anyone can pass.
Unfortunately, for some it will never happen. I do think that most cds fail to realize their absolute full potential as far as feminine beauty, and I look at some that say "I know I can't pass :( " and I think "actually... you probably could.." But not all men can make passable women.




It kind of angers me a little when I hear people say I could never pass in public. ANYONE CAN. However it's a case of how you pass, and what your doing, and passing people must remember is a thing that can be staged or graded, ie I'm not talking about passing of a rugby player of seven foot in busy town centre enviroment. however give him female clothes a dark night and distance, and people from distance would only see the woman, not the man underneath!

I think if passing can be graded, its to a very limited extent. For example, passing in a crowd, passing until you open your mouth, passing even when you open your mouth, etc.. People thinking that you're a woman on a dark night at a distance is NOT passing. If you have to rely on other's impeded eyesight or other impairments, then you are not passing, at least not to an extent that most would find satisfying. I mean its difficult and not that fun to go out but stay away from everyone like the whole town has a restraining order against you. Passing is being there, with everyone, and them not knowing the difference.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Passing is being there, with everyone, and them not knowing the difference.

or even better... even if they did know the difference they don't care ;)

Those are the people I like to hang out with. Maybe thats why the ren-crowd is such a joy to be around.

*hugs*
Zara

[Tracy_Victoria]

Passing is being there, with everyone, and them not knowing the difference.

I agree with your thoughts, however, if your mistaken for a woman at distance, is that not passing to some form of degree?

I agree being in a crowd of people and not being read, or taken for a guy in a dress is the ultmate pass. I also agree (and have said above) not everyone can reach an ultimate level. However to some just being mistaken for a woman at distance would be more than they could dream of, but if you achive it, it is still passing yourself of as a woman, in some way, so therefore it is still PASSING.


I think I could pass with a lot of work. I don't have the desire to leave the house (dressed) or the nerve presently.

you don't need to leave your house dressed, infact I would strngly advise against it (unless you have very understanding, or knowing nebours) can never spell that word! :D

All you need to do is part dress and do your makeup, (but don't put your lipstick on) wear baggy male clothes over your female clothes then just walk out the door as a man.

People only see what they want to see, so if you walk quickly to your car all people will see is you walking and driving off. you can wear sunglasses to hide your eyes and just have your outer clothes in a sports bag or holdall. People do not look at shoes, so if you have flat female ones on you have no need to change these, at all, trousers will cover most of them up anyay.

All you need then is to drive to a quite spot and do a quick change, ie boobs top and wig can all be added in a minute, then you will just look like a woman and your free to add you lipstick and refine your make up and finish your dressing at will. basically all you need is a couple of minutes to change fully, and then your free to move on.

The two benefits of getting out like this are one no one see you leave the house as a woman! and two if you load your bag with male shoes makeup remover and some items to aid you changing back to a male, if you do have problems such as a punchure, breakdown or the like, you can change back to male mode before calling for help. ALWAY BE PREPERED FOR THE UNEXPECTED.

At some point in your TV outing, you will have to confront a problem you had not expected, it is worth being prepered for as much going wrong as possable.



hope this helps


Tracy, you really did an exellent job of explaining the "do's" and "dont's".
.....
If someone is not sure what your true gender is, then they will probably default to your overall look.

you got it hun!

ie if their unsure, there unlikely to say something, or do something which in turn could make them look stupid.




I think if passing can be graded, its to a very limited extent. For example, passing in a crowd, passing until you open your mouth, passing even when you open your mouth, etc.

Limited?

you just given 3 different grading yourself, ie just adding passing at a distance, passing in the dark, passing in the dark at distance, and so on, the list and options is endless.

It's really a case of setting your goals where you want to be, and if you want to aim higher, you have to move up a notch. I agree not all can pass 100% but anybody could walk passed a blind man in high heels, and the general assumption would be a girl had walked by. it just the level you want to, and can pass at that needs to be set, or discovered.

[Chari]

Tracy, Your receipe for "passing" is very informative. Since we are all at various levels in our CDing, most of us can use the advice. A few of us are comfortable wearing some female attire, but others want to give the full illusion of a woman, which takes alot of practice. Personally, I continue to study (not stalk) GGs in my age group, as to what they wear with what, how they carry themselves, hairstyles, makeup, listen to their speech, etc. Then practice, practice, and more practice! IMO, three more items to add to your mix are confidence, attitude, and comfort. When you act like you belong where you are and are comfortable in your attire, most people won't notice what you're wearing or care who you really are, as they are more concerned about their own problems. Should you be confronted, always give a friendly smile, which usually detours the situation.:2c:

Chari

[Tracy_Victoria]

Hi Chari.

I had be confident, but being comfortable is a very good point.

When I was younger I did much the same thing, ie there was a married lady local to me who was the same build and height and so I (from a distance) watched her and studied how she moved. also it's important to remember that people of different sizes and heights move differently.

I also read books of stagecraft and makeup, loads of useful tips, certainly if like me you like to look very different. well a change is as good as a rest.