Tolerance, acceptance and lip service

[bEEb]

The recent post by DocRobSherry about masking brought out some subliminal vitriol in many here.
The "new girl" Deja True posted the sanest commentary in the whole sordid exchange.
What exactly does "Tolerance" and "acceptance" mean to us?
Is it a case of whatever "you" or "I" approve as individuals?
Or should it be "unqualified" and "universal" as long as it is remains within moral boundaries?
I think the latter personally.
There is an often used quote on the internet that states "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
That's OK to a point, but the individual realities still need to coexist, if alternative lifestyle freedom is ever to be more than the whim dujour of the practitioner.
It's a mind thing. Much like prejudice and sin. But those are topics on an even more elevated plane.
Thanks DRS for providing an excellent stimuli to bring out some of the best and worst I have ever seen in this group.:2c:

[Kate Simmons]

Good point my friend. I was thinking about this yesterday. The purpose of RS's thread was to be informative and I really think she was prepared for some "flack" as it has happened in the past and she did ask for opinions. In any case, I understood her reason for posting it though which was to demonstrate how it looks on a person. I, for one, prefer her custom made stuff and I have admiration for her creativity. When you look at it that way, it has to be put into perspective really and any creation, whether it's a mask, a costume or our femme persona itself only works as well for the purpose it was intended according to the person who created it.

We all talk about tolerance and diversity. It's human nature to want to be accepted by our peers and we may get swayed one way or the other by the general thinking. However, talk is "cheap" as they say and it all looks good on paper. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, at least the last time I looked, at least I hope so, otherwise I was wasting my time defending human freedom with two tours in Viet Nam. One part of those freedoms is freedom of expression and this cannot be over stated. A lot of things "push my buttons" with regard to this, intolerance being one of them. A lot of times I just feel like throwing in the damn towel and forgetting the whole thing but what stops me is my love and care about my friends here, all of them.

Personally, I could care less if someone wants to dress up like a cucumber. The important thing is it makes them happy and that makes me glad because there is too much unhappiness , angst and stife in the world to begin with. The mask is the least of it in my opinion. Hell, there are a lot of folks out there who identify as Otherkin and a few are friends of mine. Does that make me feel any less of them if they want to look like a chipmunk or whatever? Nope, because I know it makes them happy. Tolerance, like anything else, depends on interpretation but the real proof is in the "pudding" the way I see it.:happy:

[Christina Louise]

So the latex lasses stick together. If you start a thread and ask


...What do u think?...

then you just have to accept the views of the respondents and not start whining about the negative comments just because it's not the repsonse you hoped to get.

[bEEb]

Tolerance is a virtue whether wearing latex or cotton plaid.
Who's whining?
It's really about throwing stones in glass houses.

[Jilmac]

The recent post by DocRobSherry about masking brought out some subliminal vitriol in many here.
The "new girl" Deja True posted the sanest commentary in the whole sordid exchange.
What exactly does "Tolerance" and "acceptance" mean to us?
Is it a case of whatever "you" or "I" approve as individuals?
Or should it be "unqualified" and "universal" as long as it is remains within moral boundaries?
I think the latter personally.
There is an often used quote on the internet that states "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
That's OK to a point, but the individual realities still need to coexist, if alternative lifestyle freedom is ever to be more than the whim dujour of the practitioner.
It's a mind thing. Much like prejudice and sin. But those are topics on an even more elevated plane.
Thanks DRS for providing an excellent stimuli to bring out some of the best and worst I have ever seen in this group.:2c:

bEEb, I couldn't agree with you more, especially unqualified and universal and within moral boundries. For the most part, CD'ers try not to flaunt our femininity, which keeps us within moral boundaries. It has taken many years, but society as a whole has come to realize that gays and lesbians are people, first and foremost, above their sexual preference. It will take more time for society to see us in that same light, and when it happens, the chains and shackles that have been placed on our lifestyle, will be removed, and we too will be liberated.

Luv and :hugs: Jill

[Angie G]

If it don't hurt someone I don't care what someone wears be it a mask or personal female
Products or what ever that is op to them I said in Sherrys post that I thought it looked fake I meant offense to her or anyone That is just my take on it If I ever offend anyone It is not intensional :hugs:
Angie

[CaptLex]

We all talk about tolerance and diversity. It's human nature to want to be accepted by our peers and we may get swayed one way or the other by the general thinking. However, talk is "cheap" as they say and it all looks good on paper. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, at least the last time I looked, at least I hope so, otherwise I was wasting my time defending human freedom with two tours in Viet Nam. One part of those freedoms is freedom of expression and this cannot be over stated. A lot of things "push my buttons" with regard to this, intolerance being one of them. A lot of times I just feel like throwing in the damn towel and forgetting the whole thing but what stops me is my love and care about my friends here, all of them.

Personally, I could care less if someone wants to dress up like a cucumber. The important thing is it makes them happy and that makes me glad because there is too much unhappiness , angst and stife in the world to begin with. The mask is the least of it in my opinion. Hell, there are a lot of folks out there who identify as Otherkin and a few are friends of mine. Does that make me feel any less of them if they want to look like a chipmunk or whatever? Nope, because I know it makes them happy. Tolerance, like anything else, depends on interpretation but the real proof is in the "pudding" the way I see it.:happy:
Amen! Sal, you get straight to the point, as always. :clap: (nice suit, btw)

I have no problem with anyone wearing a mask (even if it creeps me out) or dressing any which way they please, but honest opinions were asked for in that thread, and that's what I gave. I know I'm not the most tactful person, but I don't think I was vitriolic (subliminally or otherwise). And I don't notice Doc complaining either - in fact, comments about the creepiness were expected, so what's the problem? :thinking:

BTW, it's really mind-boggling that some of the same people who are asking for respect for our differences and complaining that we don't support and encourage each other are the ones that are quick to call some of us (FtMs, that is) over-sensitive and lacking in humor when we complain about the same thing. That last comment is not directed at anyone in particular, but if the high heel fits . . . :raisedeyebrow:

[docrobbysherry]

Altho I started the Latex Mask thread to inform those interested, I expected some negativity. What has surprised me is u brave souls defending my rite to use and show the mask! Using it is one thing, I think showing it, may be another. That so many that were deeply offended, grossed out, etc., that surprised me also.

Possibly showing pictures of the mask was going too deep into the "fetish" closet for this site! Which is where I'm puting it, perminantly!

Saying all that, I have an admission to make. I have ALWAYS been grossed out by the "man-in-a-dress" look! That intolerance of seeing Robert's head on Sherry's body is what motivated me to create her Special Faces.

Since joining this site 4 months ago, I am slowly getting used to that man-in-a-dress look, little by little. However, I'm still taken aback by some of the pics posted. And still cannot accept Robert when I dress!
So, I'm NOT TOO surprised at other's intolerance to things they find distasteful, since I am also! Glass houses and stones, rite?

Lastly, there r some REALLY WONDERFUL human beings here! Makes me want to cry! Maybe I DO have a female side after all!
RS

[lestiforget]

From a purely philosophical point of view, and not to be specific to any topic, acceptance to me can mean one of two things. I accept the situation/thing/person but choose to turn my back on it/them, or I accept the situation/thing/person and choose to embrace it/them. Then there is tolerance. This to me means I'll accept, but it doesn't mean I won't complain about it once in a while. That said, acceptance is more of an unqualified and unconditional sentiment.

Acceptance of onesself is infinitely more difficult to achieve than acceptance of something or someone else. Total acceptance of onesself is very rare, regardless of ones' issues.

Sorry if I've stepped in and posted with something that's not relevent. To be honest I have no clue what you're referring to in the original post, so I'm really just speaking in general terms. Please delete if inappropriate.

Thanks
Linda

[Kate Simmons]

I know I come off as trying to look like a rough tough tomboy sometimes but often when I read a post where someone here is having problems with these feelings, tears come to my eyes. It certainly isn't easy dealing with this stuff. So called "normal" people have enough problems, we as TG folks have additional burdens as well. Tough enduring that alone sometimes.

While we may not be able to personally help our friends that much, giving a listening ear and showing genuine concern is much appreciated and goes a long way. In this "game", one size never fits all and never will. You never know though, a well placed response or word here and there may be just what someone needed to hear to inspire them in a positive way. While we cannot see what goes on behind the computer screen on the other end, we should never underestimate the power and value of positive encouragement. They say things come back to you by a factor of three. Funny how that works, huh?:happy:

[AmandaM]

Tolerance is a lot easier when we move away from the fetish aspect. Acceptance is darn nye impossible. If we know someone is TS, well, they're just a woman. If someone is a TV with TS tendencies, well, they're probably a woman. If someone is a crossdresser, they're a part-time woman. When we move to fetish transvestite, it's a little harder to take. When we move to latex, men dressing like little girls, etc. The tolerance moves down again. Everytime you move toward sexuality, sex, fetish, kinks, creeps, etc. it gets worse. Kinda like gays. If someone is gay, most don't care. If some gay likes to "act out" in public, tolerance dissipates.

Edit: That being said, I find nothing in common with the more fetishy types here. I feel as though I am completely different. This would be the crux of my anxiety about this issue.

[Tamara Croft]

Altho I started the Latex Mask thread to inform those interested, I expected some negativity. What has surprised me is u brave souls defending my rite to use and show the mask! Using it is one thing, I think showing it, may be another. That so many that were deeply offended, grossed out, etc., that surprised me also.For the record, I was one of those seriously grossed out by those latex masks, but let me make this abundantly clear... it was only about the MASKS, not you personally, although I have to admit, I did say some things that were taken wrong... I guess my Brit humour doesn't sit too well with others.

I know this forum is all about support and accepting everyone for who they are, but we all have something we don't like. I don't like those masks, some MTF CD's have made it quite clear they don't like GG's wearing pants/trousers... that we look like slobs... so although people say... live and let live here, not everyone here is tollerant of others and what they are wearing etc... the mask was no different imho. :2c:

[AmandaM]

For the record, I was one of those seriously grossed out by those latex masks, but let me make this abundantly clear... it was only about the MASKS, not you personally, although I have to admit, I did say some things that were taken wrong... I guess my Brit humour doesn't sit too well with others.

I know this forum is all about support and accepting everyone for who they are, but we all have something we don't like. I don't like those masks, some MTF CD's have made it quite clear they don't like GG's wearing pants/trousers... that we look like slobs... so although people say... live and let live here, not everyone here is tollerant of others and what they are wearing etc... the mask was no different imho. :2c:

I guess that we can't assume because the board is crossdressers.com that it is only for the run of the mill transvestite. Personally, I do not consider fetishists to be on the gender spectrum as TV's and TS's. But, that's only my opinion. Should there be a forum such as others have here?

[Deborah Jane]

Personally masks don,t appeal to me, but i will defend the right of others to wear them if thats what makes them happy! We are all individuals here and in all honesty if we start on the "can do this, can,t do that idea" where will it end?? I,m sure we all wear some things that don,t appeal to everyone else here, be it cotton undies or thigh boots or anything else that may not appeal to someone personally. In all honesty crossdressing freaks some people out [my ex wife for one], so lets just "live and let live" on this forum and support each other...After all if you don,t like something no one forces you to read it!!
Lets just go back to what this place does best..Supporting each other:love::hugs:Debs

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Well, from my point of view....

Yesterday was a learning experience for me. Like every other forum that exists outside of our realm there is going to be drama. I wasn't offended with Doc's thread at all as I believe it was meant to be more informative than anything else. I misunderstood a couple of the responses and in typing my own in response to the responses... managed to ruffle some serious plumage in here.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I try to be open-minded about things, and constructive in my replies. I don't always succeed. None of us are perfect. None of us have the end-all be-all of existence above anyone else.


Here is my recently "re-modified" post from yesterday so that it caters to all:

First...

I can appreciate Doc's artistry. Yes, thats what I think it is, and because Doc has stated many times he doesn't pass/doesnt go out in public, this method is what brings this person satisfaction. It obviously works for a couple of others who have stated so in response. Its not my cup of tea, but I see no need to insult him/them for it.

Doc has discovered his own way of expressing himself in a way that makes him more comfortable. Strange as it may be (to some even more) its what works for Doc. I applaud him for at least being honest.

Here's an analogy: I've been a practising Martial artist for 27 years and in that time I have seen hundreds of different styles, techniques, and people. The biggest influence for me was/is Bruce Lee and mainly for his commentary on Martial artists "Honestly expressing themselves".
He taught people and told them to make it their own and to teach THAT, not what he taught, so that art would evolve and change to adapt to each persons abilities.
Now, I laughed out loud years ago the first time I saw a practitioner of "Monkey Style" Kung Fu. It was weird as hell, and definitely different, but that person found what works for them within the realm of the Arts. No, it may not be as "creepy" a thing to you, but its falls under the same category of people who do things differently than the rest of us might.

The way things are going I'll probably get banned for being "honest". I've been an active participant/moderator on 9 other message boards relating from Music to Martial arts. In all that time I have never been "warned" about so much as I have since coming here 4 months ago.

Sometimes its like there is this inherent need to make everything here all sweetness and light unless its GG related where real pain is allowed to be shown without question. Every forum has its drama and some of it can be downright exasperating. Take a walk into a no-hoklds barred political forum and you'll see what I mean. Makes this place look like Kansas.

Yes, I can hear your words already... "If you dont like it you know where the door is ...don't let it hit you on the arse on the way out".

Truth is, despite all of this, I really LOVE this forum. Most notably, some of the people in it.

Don't stop being honest. Be Constructive about it...thats all it takes. That way we ALL can learn something.

My long-winded 22 cents worth

Lady Zarabeth

[deja true]

"...on the gender spectrum as TV's and TS's..."

This idea of a spectrum of sexuality has had me thinking for a long time. And the thing that's buzzing aound in my mind is that there is not a "spectrum" per se, with macho men at one end and ultra femme bunnies at the other. There's not a spectrum with part-time dressers at one end and deep-stealth trans-girls at the other. Many of our "sub-kinks", if you will, don't seem to fit into spectrums easily.

As the confusing fog of (over)thinking this conundrum lets little clear patches of clarity(?) appear, I'm starting to get a vision, not of a spectrum, but of a big hazy cloud and each little nuance of our desires, pantiehose or latex or lipstick or humiliation or ballet flats or piercings or whatever ad infinitum, is a particle, a distinct particle. And each of us is a collection of particles that attract or repel other particles. My "gaff" particle rejects that free-floating "taping" particle. My "lace"particle attracts and accepts that "spandex" particle.

We're 3 dimensional (maybe 4 dimensional) distinct collections of likes and dislikes, not marks on a 2 dimensional scale of T-ness.


Sorry about all this gobblygook, but I've been wanting to get this thinking into a post for a while and I think it fits a bit into this one.

respect (for all multi-dimensional beings) and love

deja

(Gosh, my head hurts!)

[Nicole Erin]

We all like to CD in our own way.
What is the big deal?

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

We all like to CD in our own way.
What is the big deal?

Exactly!!
*hugs*
Zara

[AmandaM]

To quote Captain Kirk:
"What, this little thing? Just something I slipped on."

[Tamara Croft]

To quote Captain Kirk:
"What, this little thing? Just something I slipped on."Denny Crane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denny_Crane) says the same thing :heehee: (boston legal)

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Denny Crane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denny_Crane) says the same thing :heehee: (boston legal)

Love that show!

[docrobbysherry]

"...on the gender spectrum as TV's and TS's..."

This idea of a spectrum of sexuality has had me thinking for a long time. And the thing that's buzzing aound in my mind is that there is not a "spectrum" per se, with macho men at one end and ultra femme bunnies at the other. There's not a spectrum with part-time dressers at one end and deep-stealth trans-girls at the other. Many of our "sub-kinks", if you will, don't seem to fit into spectrums easily.

As the confusing fog of (over)thinking this conundrum lets little clear patches of clarity(?) appear, I'm starting to get a vision, not of a spectrum, but of a big hazy cloud and each little nuance of our desires, pantiehose or latex or lipstick or humiliation or ballet flats or piercings or whatever ad infinitum, is a particle, a distinct particle. And each of us is a collection of particles that attract or repel other particles. My "gaff" particle rejects that free-floating "taping" particle. My "lace"particle attracts and accepts that "spandex" particle.

We're 3 dimensional (maybe 4 dimensional) distinct collections of likes and dislikes, not marks on a 2 dimensional scale of T-ness.


Sorry about all this gobblygook, but I've been wanting to get this thinking into a post for a while and I think it fits a bit into this one.

respect (for all multi-dimensional beings) and love

deja

(Gosh, my head hurts!)

What a magnificent post! Or, to put it another way, " U said a mouthful!"
There goes my "spectrum" theory, out the window! I like yours much better!
RS

[battybattybats]

I can find no good argument against the idea that: "You may fairly claim no right or freedom that you do not freely allow to all others". I do add that I think there is also an obligation to defend everyone elses rights in order to claim your own.

Also I'd like to make a point about morals... philosophically speaking morals are based on personally accepted values and are therefore relative except amongst others that have accepted the same value. Some philosophers however argue that Ethics are objective and seperate from morals so I'd argue that Ethics should be the line and not morals.

So if it only involves consenting adults of sound mind then no matter what a person may personally think about it for themselves they cannot object to others doing so without bringing their own rights into question. Those who don't like it can look away, read something else, change the tv chanel, read other threads etc.

Freedom of expression is just that, free. The limit on it is accepting that others are free to express themselves also in whatever different ways they chose.

So no matter how kinky someones actions or a topic might be as long as everyone is consenting adults then anything goes. Kinky people have just the same rights as non-kinky people. A fetishistic dresser might still feel feminine when the handcuffs and nylons are taken off so lets not assume they don't belong on the gender spectrum and as long as they have anything to do with crossing gender clothing norms then they have a right to both terms like transgender and crossdresser.

On top of all that, humans grow by exploring the different so I'd suggest that if there is something you dislike without knowing much about it then instead of avoiding it or worse shouting it down that instead it could be the thing you can most learn from and that exploring why it exists, why it is different to yourself and why you aren't comfortable about it could teach you a lot about the world, a lot about yourself and help you develop the skills of tolerance and acceptance.

In fact as most homophobic people have been shown in studies to be gay or bi though repressed and the same is likely for transphobes then it would be of serious benefit to individuals and to society as a whole for more people to explore what (that is nonetheless ethical) that they react to and why.

[Jazzmine]

There can never be a universal yardstick for what is tolerable in a free world.

If I used a mask to better approximate a woman, to my eyes, then that is not a fetish, in my view. I could tolerate that as a oncer just to experience it.

If I could only enjoy sex if I had a mask on, that would be getting very close to fetishness, in my view. I couldn't tolerate that, for me. Too wierd!

Given this, I would have to conclude that my tolerance depends on the intent of the situation. Furthermore, to be fair to all concerned, I would need to discover a person's intention, before I judged them to be tolerable or intolerable. I could not in all honesty, judge someone without understanding their situation. So much for calling a spade a spade, on face value alone.

But we all judge on face value most of the time, probably for the sake of brevity and because we, ourselves, are intolerant of anyone with a differing point of view. We are the problem as much as the person we don't tolerate.

We humans are very complex yet we love to boil life down to Black/White. The enquiring intelligent mind knows about greyscales as well!

Tolerance, in my view, is a strong indicator of an advanced soul - someone with wisdom and compassion.

Hugs Jazzmine

[battybattybats]

There can never be a universal yardstick for what is tolerable in a free world.


I disagree, as for the world to be truly free than reciprocal freedom and equality is required and that creates a natural boundary (the 'natural law of ethics' as espoused by some philosophers) that would precisely be a universal yardstick for what is tolerable in a free world that occurs as a natural consequence of a truly free world.

[Nicki B]

This idea of a spectrum of sexuality has had me thinking for a long time. And the thing that's buzzing aound in my mind is that there is not a "spectrum" per se, with macho men at one end and ultra femme bunnies at the other. There's not a spectrum with part-time dressers at one end and deep-stealth trans-girls at the other.

Deja, surely there is a spectrum of sexuality - from hetero, through degrees of bi, to homosexuality.. Similarly there is variation in gender. But it's highly unlikely to be linear (the spectrum/rainbow bit surely is just a means of including all colours). And, where we sit on (or in) it also seems to vary over time?

It can be a cube, or a cloud, or even a fog - I guess it depends if you like sharp edges? ;)

[Brynna M]

I personally don't think we can control what we feel. As such we are entitled to those feelings. Good, bad, supportive, or disgusted. And there is no responsability for those feelings just as we arn't our inborn phyical traits.

The catch is that we are always responsible for our actions. I can be disgusted by something and express it constructively, say nothing at all, or express my feelings poorly. I'm responsible for how I choose to act on my feelings.

Tolerance is not feeling ok with everything it is choosing to act constructively when faced with a broad range of things we feel negatively about.

I have no right to control how someone expresses themselves or finds happiness (as long as its harmless) . But I don't have to like it. I can choose not to be around what I feel negatively about and it should never be forced on me.

Whatever we choose there are always consequneces. For me for most situations alienating good people is worse than tolerating some form of expression I feel negatively about.

[Katie Ashe]

Well to me: Simply but not complete:

Tolerance is when I'm able to go to the store and do my business with out confrentation. When I can be in the same room with those whom don't approve yet leave me alone. When I'm simply allowed to live my life peacefully.

Acceptance is the people I choose: to hang out with, call, got out with, enjoy being with, makes me feel "normal", Don't care one way or another about anything...

Lip Service: When I say something is: when someone has crossed the line for no good reason and are looking for a arguement, someone is close minded and verbally putting GLBT's down

[Jazzmine]

I disagree, as for the world to be truly free than reciprocal freedom and equality is required and that creates a natural boundary (the 'natural law of ethics' as espoused by some philosophers) that would precisely be a universal yardstick for what is tolerable in a free world that occurs as a natural consequence of a truly free world.

Bats, I think we agree entirely. For what you are saying is that I cannot judge you if you're prepared to not judge me. But that will not work if you affect me disproportionately.

I was probably not clear enough in that I meant that in a free world it is unfair to draw a line in the sand on a subject and say definitively that this will be tolerable and that will not. Some understanding of the other party's intentions are in order to make that judgement. And I would be free to make that judgement. A free world is not necessarily a perfect world which is where your comments stem from.

In a perfect world we would have all knowledge and all choices. And you and I would make perfect decisions (much the same as we do now, of course!:heehee:). In a free world we would simply have to make sure our decisions didn't affect others any more than theirs affected us.

Very rarified air with this philosphy stuff - I think we all agree that everyone has a right to their life so long as we keep our footprints off other people.

Hugs Jazzmine