passing important or not ?

[shirley1]

i know there have been one or two posts already but then i'm sure most threads get repeated at some stage to a more or lesser extent ! was just thinkin to myself earlier why is passing so important to some including myself ? i think its because if your anything like me you want to look as convincing as possible when/if you go out so too not attract unwanted attention - is passing overated was a recent thread my answer yes probably ! i've seen guys walkin down a road not even wearing wigs obvoius they are guys in broad daylight bit not gettin lynched or anything - most people dont care or take any notice about what other people do i have learn that much - but if you lack confidence like i do in your normal life generally then to go out and be constantly stared at is a scary concept to say the least ! i recently posted a thread about if you knew you could pass would you be more likely to go out - i think most of us would i mean if it was possible to swap bodies with a good looking gg occasionally yeh most of us would do so and not be in the slightest bit worried about goin out caus youd know you wouldnt look stupid or get any grief of anyone - so i think for me the answer is yes it is important for some of us to look as convincin as we can possibly be if for know other reason than not to attract to much unwanted attention

[tamarav]

I fully agree, but some of us do want to attract positive attention. Yesterday I went to look at a possible new salon location and got hit on by both realtors and another potential client that was viewing the property. Now I like attention but this was almost overboard, I actually thought they were just dicking with me to see my reaction. I felt that I looked good that day but this was more than I anticipated.

My work partner that was with me got really pissed, no one gave her the time of day. I have to laugh but inside I feel sorry for the actual girl who is pretty damn cute!

Here are a couple of shots from that day.

[Jennaie]

Shirley, well said. I do think that you missed an important point though. For some, passing is not important, for others, it is more important than anything. For those who simply must pass, it's about validation, being validated as female. About switching bodies with a female, I'm afraid she would never get it back. LOL

[Suzy Harrison]

i- but if you lack confidence like i do in your normal life generally then to go out and be constantly stared at is a scary concept to say the least !

I don't think your level of confidence in your normal life makes any difference Shirley. I'm very confident in that respect. So in a way I want to carry that feeling across into the feminine aspect of my life.
I think everyone would prefer to feel accepted in either male or female form.

[shirley1]

put another stance on what i am trying to say then - if i go out enough times and know how to dress and wear makeup ect and i dont get any odd looks/unwanted attention then my confidence would grow masively ! if i know i cant ever pass then i would probably never want to go out on my own - for some the need to go out is greater than worrying about how convincing they look - i have full admaration for people who dont care or worry about being passible ! they have far more confidence than i will ever have !

[Kate Simmons]

I believe it depends entirely on your intention my friend. If you are trying to pass to make others think you are a woman, you have to consider various scenerios, especially if they "buy" the illusion. If you are going out to blend in or be "invisible", I don't think it matters that much. If you really don't care, as many here say then it depends on your level of confidence and self assurance because you never really know how others will react or what may come up as a result. If we don't have a clue as to our intention, it can become more or less a crap shoot and anything is possible.:happy:

[kathy001]

As i mentioned in another thread each of us has our own reasons, purposes, goals, comfort levels, limits and challenges in this 'hobby' of ours.

For me personally, it makes no sense to get all dolled up in a female personna and not complete the transformation to its logical conclusion (no not SRS) which in my case means going out and about and yes being recognized as the opposite gender. After all i'd be dressed and act as the opposite gender albeit part time.

I consider validation as sort of frosting on the cake.

For some of us, the teenage sexual thrill out of wearing women's unmentionables is long gone and has taken evolutionary steps over the years leading to the ultimate challenge - passability. While for others, their evolutionary path has stopped at their own personal comfort level stopping short of passability. I geuss what i'm trying to say is that there and many levels with this lifelong passion of ours.
If i could have chosen to not ever have this passion in the first place, i'd do it in a heart beat and live a normal life as the vast majority of men.
But these are the cards i've been dealt and have to live with it.

As for whether the 'passer wanna be's' among us are in some murky gray area between CD and TS, i'll leave that up to 'ol Sigmund Frued!

[shirley1]

ok yeh for me going out dressed is only worthwhile if i can look as convincing as possible as i want or would like the experience of being perceived as female - if its too obvoius i am a guy dressed as a woman would i really still be having that experience - i am not looking to swap genders at least not for the meantime ! but if i go out i want to look the part or as close to it as i can get otherwise i cant see the point ! plenty of guys get dressed up and go to fancy dress parties en femme - most of them love it when they do - theyre not cders - all i'm saying is if i can look convincing then its worth making the effort if not then maybe i'll just do it anyway but for me the experience i'd really want is to be perceived as a gg not a guy wearing womens clothes

[Dayna]

My wife has often wondered about the need for makeup and a wig when crossdressing is supposed to be about the clothes. My response to her was fairly logical (I thought): "No one really likes to look at a guy in a dress--not even me. So if I put on the dress, I want the face to look feminine, too."

Fast forward a week, and I told her about a dream I had... I met a bunch of male co-workers at a restaurant to work on a new marketing plan. It was a white-shirt-and-tie group, but I was in a white blouse (with pearls, of course), a gray wool skirt, and black pumps. No makeup, no wig, a traditional businessman's haircut--and no one really paid much attention. Yes, it was just a dream, but I couldn't get over how accepted and 'normal' I felt.

Will it ever get to that point? I doubt it. So I put on the makeup carefully, make sure the hair is brushed and set, and do my best to blend in.

[Billie Renee]

For me passing is not important but being in my confort zone is. Let me explain this,as a male I'm more apt to be shy and lack confidence where as in female mode I'm more out going and not a shy person at all. So it doesn't matter if I pass or not but where my confidence is at its best and I'm comfortable with myself.

[shirley1]

My wife has often wondered about the need for makeup and a wig when crossdressing is supposed to be about the clothes. My response to her was fairly logical (I thought): "No one really likes to look at a guy in a dress--not even me. So if I put on the dress, I want the face to look feminine, too."

Fast forward a week, and I told her about a dream I had... I met a bunch of male co-workers at a restaurant to work on a new marketing plan. It was a white-shirt-and-tie group, but I was in a white blouse (with pearls, of course), a gray wool skirt, and black pumps. No makeup, no wig, a traditional businessman's haircut--and no one really paid much attention. Yes, it was just a dream, but I couldn't get over how accepted and 'normal' I felt.

Will it ever get to that point? I doubt it. So I put on the makeup carefully, make sure the hair is brushed and set, and do my best to blend in.

well i have had many dreams just lately caus its obvoiusly on my mind - one most recently that i can remember i was sitting in a gypsy skirt and a frilly blouse - sat talkin to my mom of all people who caught me out at 13 dressed and will most likely never see me dressed again - but yeh i do have dreams more and more about being dressed in public places and knowone seems to care - maybe its my subconcuoise mind just tellin me what i'm missing out on or telling me to just come out to people ! i dont believe any true cder can be in the closet for ever sooner or later your just gonna have to come out ! sorry this was not my thread but worthy of another new one i havnt seen yet !

[tricia_uktv]

I think we do what we want to. Go as far as we want to and each of us is slightly different and push the boundaries in different ways. Personally though life has got a lot easier since I accepted the fact that I am simply not going to pass in all circumstances, however hard I try. It takes away the pressure.

[Mirani]

I just dont want hassle.

Ideally I would just like to be respected as "me" no matter what I am wearing or how I present.

The world as it is (generally) still has a problem with gender variance at whatever level it is.

So, I do my best to avoid "trouble" when out - that is present in a way that doesnt say "man in a dress". If there was no prospect of threats, insults and violence, then I would be happy to be that man in a dress.

Tho' recently I have found that I dont need as much makeup as I thought I did.

I am such a contradiction ... quite soon I am going out on a "hen night" and then to a wedding. I will CERTAINLY want to "pass" on those occasions. .......

[Deborah Jane]

For me personally i think trying to pass/blend is the next stage of my evolution. I,m growing bored of just dressing up around the house and want to expieriance more to this. I would love to be able to do every day things such as walking my dog, go shopping, etc while en femme, something i am working towards now.

[Nicki B]

I think everyone would prefer to feel accepted in either male or female form.

But 'passing' isn't acceptance - in fact, it's the very opposite?

I think some people get hung up on it because they think they need to for their personal safety? :strugglin

[Slip Affinity]

There's no use trying to kid myself ... I'm a guy in lingerie and there's no changing that. Therefore, passing myself off as female isn't really an option.

[kathy001]

"But 'passing' isn't acceptance - in fact, it's the very opposite?"

Successfully passing as the opposite gender is acceptance by the general public. Thats just my opinion however.

As mentioned, no doubt there's a safety aspect for those of us that venture out in the real world in our temprary gender change illusion and is a definite real concern.
The way i see this whole thing right or wrong is that men are raised in general to not beat or hit women. Of course there are exceptions to that rule of thumb. Which brings up the subject of blending versus going out in public dressed as a drag queen.
I could be wrong here but i think a bunch of drunken rednecks would beat the hell out of a drag queen a lot sooner than an innocent-meek- minding her own business blender. Why? The drag queen look definitely attracts attention which some men might percieve as trying to attract their attention in a homosexual way. The NOT hitting the girl thing is more apt to be out the window now...anything could happen.
The hetro blender on the other hand sets out to NOT attract attenion ESPECIALLY in a sexual way geared towards titilating men. Which in essence means they're less likely to be noticed in the first place and and pose a minimal threat to potential homophobes.

This could also be one of many reasons GGs currently dress the way they do...to avoid male gawks and being constantly 'hit on'. If thats the case with some, can't say i blame em. The last thing i would want when out in public as Kathy is to be gawked at and hit on by men (which would never happen in my case).
Now i might not mind if i got hit on by women! :happy:
Wishful thinking, i know!!:sad:

Please people let those last sentences ride without comments. Its just my opinion which could be way off base, we don't need another thread locked!

[Nicki B]

"But 'passing' isn't acceptance - in fact, it's the very opposite?"

Successfully passing as the opposite gender is acceptance by the general public. Thats just my opinion however.

How can it be acceptance, if they just think you're a genetic woman? Surely you're talking about invisibility? :idontknow:



Now i might not mind if i got hit on by women! :happy:

Trust me, the only women who will hit on you are lesbian, or actively fancy trannies - and you tend to find either of those in GLBT places?? :D

[kathy001]

Hi Nicki,
"How can it be acceptance, if they just think you're a genetic woman? Surely you're talking about invisibility?"
I think we're just gonna go in circles with semantics. :Peace:

"Trust me, the only women who will hit on you are lesbian",
H'mm that might be OK too...that is if she's a lipstick lesbian and brings her lipsticked girlfriend along! :D

[Richelle]

I just dont want hassle.


So, I do my best to avoid "trouble" when out - that is present in a way that doesnt say "man in a dress". If there was no prospect of threats, insults and violence, then I would be happy to be that man in a dress.
.

I agree with Marani on this, I just want to be able to go out, shop, dine and have fun without being hassled and avoiding any touble with closed minded people

Richelle

[Andrea_girl]

For me passing is the most important thing.

I don't want to be seen as a man in a pretty skirt or dress, i want to be seen as a lady.

As cross dressers we have to dress to impress both men and women

as men we only have to dress to impress women.

Also if i am able to pass it build confidence.

I have yet to venture out as i am scared that i wont pass.

[Melissa A.]

It depends alot on where we are in the spectrum that is us, and what we want to get from being female. It is very important personally for me to pass, not just when I'm out somewhere, or have a visitor, but also when I am home by myself. perhaps that's because I consider myself more tg than cd, that a huge part of me is female and may be the only part of me someday(I start sessions with a gender therapist next week, to find the answers). Anyway, when dressed, I AM a woman. At least that is how I feel. So it only makes sense that I would want to look as much like a female as possible, at all times, whether out in public, or alone.

Now I'm going to contradict myself! Having said all that, It is soooo much more about how you feel than how you look. A few weeks ago, I was at a trans meeting, and many of the girls there simply cannot be passable, either because of their size, or other reasons. But there they were, out in the world, being who they are. I give them all the credit in the world! I, myself, realise that old age is approaching, and I wont always look as I do today. Whether I find out that I am a cd, tg, or ts, that won't stop me from being who I am.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Janet_W]

No matter how much makeup I put on I still look like an old lady in a dress! On the other side of sixty years old, going on seventy. :o I still get a pleasure dressing at my apartment! That is passing to me.

[shirley1]

one thing i have learned on this site is that its more about confidence than anything else - and i believe every word anyone on here says in that respect - i'm sure you could go out and walk down the road in a pink sissy girls dress and look obviously like a guy in a dress and not get beaten up or even verbally abused ! but as it is a confidence thing then i guess for some of us looking as convincing as possible if we can/do is important - for those of us that cannot pass (i dont know if i can yet) then fair play to those who have got the confidence to go out dressed anyway and not care what the world thinks ! i can only speak for myself but for me i would never walk down the road in broad daylite dressed unless i knew i looked fairly convincin - going out with other cders of a nite time is completely different - i would go out around shoppin malls with other cders in daytime even though i would be easily read caus even though some say you stand out more in a crowd ! i would feel more relaxed knowing i'm not out on my own ! ts's therefore i have even more admiration for caus they have no choice but to tread the boards alone !

[Rachel Morley]

But 'passing' isn't acceptance - in fact, it's the very opposite?


How can it be acceptance, if they just think you're a genetic woman? Surely you're talking about invisibility? :idontknow:

Passing is a very touchy subject. If the definition of "passing" is people totally believing that you are a genetic woman ... even when they see you close up ... phew! ... well not many people can do that, and if they do, they aren't getting accepted as a crossdresser, they are getting accepted in a general sense as apparently being female.

Whereas if "passing" means that people might know you are not what you initially appear to be, but they don't let on to you that they know, and they treat you as the gender you are presenting as .... well that's still passing in my book but it's also acceptance as being a crossdresser at the same time. :2c: I'm obviously very happy with the number one scenario, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm very happy with the number two scenario when that happens too.

[Taffy]

For some of us, "passing" isn't an option... Being an LG, passing as a 10-year old simply won't work, but that does not bother me one whit...

[Angie G]

I don't go out so passing as never been important me. I would like to maybe try it once besides Halloween maybe going shopping with the wife At the outlet mall. :hugs:
Angie

[JoAnnDallas]

Not sure if I pass or not, but have gone out shopping and around others. You can see how I look when I go out by looking at my avatar. I have gotton a few werid looks, but not comments or hassels.

[annekathleen]

I'd like to be able to "pass" someday.
I think a professional make-over would be a lot of fun.
Only dilemma,
I still like my mustache.
It would have to go.:sad:

[Sam-antha]

I think that most of you have it wrong.
Going out dressed is one thing when one blends into the folk around you on the pavement or wherever. Then, like everyone else you are invisible. You are a female, properly appearing, normal with whatever normally abnormal attributes you may have.
That is one "target"
Going out dressed and passing should perhaps be taken to mean a failure to blend in by reason of the outstanding feminine person that is being shown, by you to the world.
That, the other "target" is rather more difficult to achieve, if attainable at all by most of us.

[kathy001]

Its becoming clear to me at least reading this thread that passing means different things to different people. To me its simple. It means going about and not be gawked at or redded out. Being accepted by the public at large as just another average human being as the current gender presented.
Whether this means being the 'invisible' or the 'blending' pseudo-woman, yep that works!
On the other hand, being capable and setting one's goal to pass as a genetic female up close and personal to attract the same natal gender as one example is a whole different issue.
Yes, not only two different targets but probably many more.

[KandisTX]

Passing and the importance of it is a personal issue that each of us deals with on an individual level. Myself for instance will get dressed and go out without worrying if I am going to "pass" because I am going out for myself and not someone else. I go out dressed because I want to.

Kandis:love:

[Amy Hepker]

Yes, it is important to me.

[shirley1]

i think the conclusion i have drawn from the replies to this thread are that if you are extremely confident or at least confident enough to go out dressed no matter what passing doesnt matter so much - but for those of us who lack confidence and are therefore scared to go out for fear of ridicule nasty comments off people ect the need to look as passible as possible is more important as its blatently obvious the better/more convincing you look the less likelyhood you are of gettin any strange looks or unwelcome attention/comments - i think the scariest part when you first go out is the not knowing how convincing or good you look - i do believe you can look good dressed but still not be passible ie you look good in the clothes but your face gives you away - i'm sure even looking good as a guy dressed is better than than just not looking good at all ! but certainly having the confidence to go out in the first place is the most important thing and it doesnt matter how good you look if you havnt got the confidence you will never be comfortable with it - its like having the looks to pull ggs but if you havnt got the confidence to go with it its no advantage at all !

[Nicki B]

..but for those of us who lack confidence and are therefore scared to go out for fear of ridicule nasty comments off people ect the need to look as passible as possible is more important as its blatently obvious the better/more convincing you look the less likelyhood you are of gettin any strange looks or unwelcome attention/comments

IMHO, that's not true. 'Ridicule and nasty comments' are nothing like as common as you might think - the vast majority of people are too wrapped up in their own lives to even notice you and the rest tend to 'live and let live' - there is even the attitude of respect, that you're brave enough to be yourself?

The worst barriers to being in the real world are the ones in your own head...

[shirley1]

IMHO, that's not true. 'Ridicule and nasty comments' are nothing like as common as you might think - the vast majority of people are too wrapped up in their own lives to even notice you and the rest tend to 'live and let live' - there is even the attitude of repect, that you're brave enough to be yourself?

The worst barriers to being in the real world are the ones in your own head...

i believe and accept what you are saying - i know you are right - but i also believe the people that say its all about having confidence - confidence for most of us is something we have to build on over a period of time/experience ect - this is for me personally and i'm sure for many cders a real/ultimate test of any confidence we've got and are likely to get - for the average guy to dress up as a women and go out in public is too say the least a real test of courage and character - its not easy for some despite what some of you say about the biggest fear being the fear itself - i understand that but it doesnt make it any easier ! its a challenge for me personally to go out whether it be with others or alone and i am determined to conquer it now - but i still think i would find it easier if i look the part !

[Nicki B]

Confidence doesn't magically happen - you have to build it, gradually, step by step... If you jump too far, too fast, you can do more harm than good? And it really helps to have someone to hold your hand?


But always try to project confidence? Even if you're quaking inside - NOBODY ELSE CAN TELL.. And when you find they take your word for it, it builds your confidence.. :)

[kathy001]

Shirley1,
do you have the confidence to pass your self off as a male? Take that confidence energy and just apply it to fem mode. Easier said than done?

Even when in their natal birth mode, most guys either consciously or subconsciously try to look their macho best. Aka, mustaches, beards, Harley motorcycle boots, chain wallets, bar room fights, working out, etc. I know, been there, done all that myself! Same with natal women but with a feminine twist.

Confidence in anything is not gained by throwing an ON/OFF switch or reading some 'how to book'. Confidence has to be earned by real life experiences which in this case by baby steps, trial 'n error and unfortunately the occasional humiliation. If that nagging drive still exists and it will, most important of all is perseverance and learning from past experiences both positive and negative and making necessary corrections as you go along.

I am not the world's most passable CDer especially now at my age but as Kathy has been resuccitated in the last few months from a 10 year coma, i've yet to be red to date. In fact no one pays attention to me when in Kathy mode and i've been out quite a bit lately. Maybe its my i don't give a sh_t attitude i'm just going about my business or what at this point.

Sure early on years ago when i started to experiment going out i've been red and its not a pleasant experience. Instead of instantly purging and 'giving it up for good' once more, i figured out why and made adjustments. But the other side of the equation is that i was also 'accepted' far more often.
Call that the carrot in front of the 'ol horse.