Good versus bad testosterone

[helenr]

I was reflecting on how cholesterol is termed either good or bad. I thought of testosterone. I have been on a self-doctored regimen of spiro and a tiny amount of finesterade. It is working fine. I am monitoring my health with periodic blood exams, and am staying very healthy. I know not all will agree, but I from what I read, there is more accurate information at this website and others I visit, than most of the overpriced, uninterested MDs out there.
Anyway, I believe that measuring testosterone levels and effects is pretty scientific and affected by many factors. I do know that my sexual libido is pretty flat. I also notice my body hair seems finer-the fine hairs I had on my fingers is gone, chest hair, alas still there, has taken a long time to grow back and nothing like before. My body odor-as would be found on chest hair and arm pits seems gone too. I mention all this as others are curious, I suspect.
On the other hand, I think what testosterone I have left is the 'good variety' that permits me to exercise regularly on core strength workouts. I don't aspire to any big muscles,etc--just don't want my body to fall apart. I take calcium pills, but I sure don't wish the osteoporosis that many older women get due to lack of calcium,etc. Testosterone , I understand, helps with bone strength. Fractured hips aren't a fun part of being feminine!
So maybe, there is a good and bad form of testosterone. I am not sexed up any more, I don't waste time dressing fancy, paint nails or makeup, read fantasy stories or watch porn. I am relieved of that demon, but I want to stay physically well too and maybe that is the good stuff at work. What do others think? helen

[waspookie6]

Testosterone comes in one form really but both genders need some to allow the body to function properly. For some gg's they are prescribed T when it dips too low, it can cause general overall problems for both if in the negative level.

In some cases loss of energy is attributed low T levels and weight gain, a bit of a vicious cycle. No energy to take a walk or exercise, the exercise would increase T levels a bit to "energy" range but no energy to take a brisk walk. It's a bit of a balancing act to be sure!

[Julie York]

I just looked at your profile and read your age. Unless you have some Casonova genes the symptoms you describe have nothing to do with meds and more to do with mellowing out naturally. You'd probably improve your health by not taking them.

[helenr]

I politely disagree. I had a very strong, and frustrating, libido. If I wore a pretty nylon nighty, I would awaken with a physical reaction noticeable! now matters stay calm and I am far happier. I know my facial hair regrows about 1/2 what was before. Even trivial things like male toe hair (sounds silly to type it out) has regrown about 1/2 or less the rate before. I am sure the Spiro must be affecting this. thanks for your interest, nonetheless. Helen

[Nicki B]

Chemically, there are different types of cholesterol - but there is only one kind of testosterone... :confused:

[Lanore]

The only good testosterone is one that is not in my body. Someday that will happen.

Lanore

[melissaK]

Helenr, I get what you're saying. The relief from T driven behavior is startling. A calmness, an inner peace. And its not age. I'm 53 FYI, and if I go off E meds, it all comes raging back. (Julie, as you mention, the age related drop in T many men experience with age is credited with providing some relief to some older men, see Ann Vitale's website for her article mentioning this.)

Your attempt to come up with a logical theory, i.e. good T or bad T is novel, but like nikki points out, the literature mentions only one chemical version of T. So, it probably has to do with saturation levels somehow.

Because your approach is to reduce T with spiro, and my approach is to leave my natural T alone but dilute it by taking E (and the E eventually reduces the bodies ability to create T), we can probably conclude the reduction of T is important in the equation.

My total lack of real trainiing in endorcrinology qualifies me to do little but speculate. I speculate that both T and E are both capable of affecting other glands and chemical reactions in the body. So maybe those of us who describe this relief when T is reduced or diluted by the presence of E, have some other body chemistry that is "disregulated" by exposure to T. Reducing the other sites ability to bond with T either by eliminating the T with Spiro, or making E available to take up binding sites, stops that disregulation.

And all of that still would play into theories that MTF TS have some genetic based differnces where some parts of our body developed to be female in nature, not male, and maybe the T is just aggravating the heck out of those parts of us. The reverse for FTM's.

Is it too late for med school and a residency in endocrinology?

hugs,
'lissa

[CaptLex]

And all of that still would play into theories that MTF TS have some genetic based differnces where some parts of our body developed to be female in nature, not male, and maybe the T is just aggravating the heck out of those parts of us. The reverse for FTM's.
Thanks, Melissa, that was detailed and informative. I think it's true that it's our natural physiological differences that cause the "calm" effect in MtFs when T is removed/decreased, because the opposite is true in FtMs - it's the T that brings us that peace. One could argue that part of that is mental - finally finding what we need - but I'm sure there's a physical component to it. I think it's probably our cells being fed what they need to function best. :thinking:


Is it too late for med school and a residency in endocrinology?

hugs,
'lissa
Nothing is "too late" till we're dead. ;)

[helenr]

I appreciate all the comments. It was tongue in cheek when I used the good and bad analogy. But I am truly startled how what was a fetish fascination with ladies clothes totally waned with the effects of the spiro. I do and will always, I presume, choose to wear ladies' lingerie, but it no longer is arousal based desires. This is truly a huge relief. Think of the hours some of our 'sisters' devote to self beautification. It it wrong to imply that this is all 'fetish based' or arousal,etc, but ,honestly, tight corsets, super high heels, makeup to the nines--what is that really all about ?
Yes, I would welcome surgery to eliminate this disliked objects between my legs, but, frankly, as they are sort of dormant, I don't have the dislike for them that I did before. They seem slightly smaller-not that noticeable to be honest-but they aren't running my life any more. ( as I type that, I wonder if I sound crazy??)
By contrast, I am very concerned about staying physically fit and, I understand, if you manage to lower your testosterone to a GG's level, you will lose strength, lose energy, etc. When I speak of strength, I don't mean those disgusting big biceps--just core strength so your back doesn't collapse on you, you don't fall down and get seriously hurt, fracture your hip, etc. There is nothing 'feminine' about those infirmities.
I don't mean to write a book but I am fascinated with the changes I have seen. best, helenr

[waspookie6]

Ahhh, I get it now (d'oh!). The same of what DH was first embarrassed about when he would dress, the "shwing" factor shall we say of satin panties and stockings, lingerie in general. Reducing that at all times from testosterone levels I think is what you were referring to.

It used to bother me but now I know why it first pops up then after he's all dressed it goes away - though there are times when he has to 'fight' it so to speak. Not that he wants to lose his male bits, he initially was embarrassed at his body reaction to dressing up.

It wasn't what he intended but darned if they do have a mind of their own...and yes, I think all men would like to have more control over that through their entire lives regardless of dressed up or a strong wind blowing through... ;)

[melissaK]

They seem slightly smaller-not that noticeable to be honest-but they aren't running my life any more. ( as I type that, I wonder if I sound crazy??)


So a friend (age 40 +/-) is talking with his Dad, age 70 +/- . His Dad says to my friend "I'm impotent now - been that way for a half-dozen years." and "Son, its the damn most liberating thing in the world." "For the first time in my life I don't have some woman leading me around by my ****."

My friend was kinda shocked as his dad is an MD and chief of surgery at a major hospital. Seemed relevant to your coments.

hugs,
'lissa

[nibel]

Actually, I have to disagree with the people who said there is only one type of testosterone. There are two types of testosterone: plain testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (also known as DHT). DHT is an activated form of T, with it's potential aplified 100 fold. DHT is also the main responsable for the male characteristics not T alone. Like, many people talk about finasteride as a T-blocker, but that's untrue, finasteride is actually a T to DHT blocker, so it prevent the "activation" of testosterone.

[Valeria]

Actually, I have to disagree with the people who said there is only one type of testosterone. There are two types of testosterone: plain testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (also known as DHT). DHT is an activated form of T, with it's potential aplified 100 fold. DHT is also the main responsable for the male characteristics not T alone. Like, many people talk about finasteride as a T-blocker, but that's untrue, finasteride is actually a T to DHT blocker, so it prevent the "activation" of testosterone.
DHT is an androgenic hormone, but it is not "a type of testosterone". It will not show up as testosterone in a blood test, and it is not really a substitute for testosterone (it fills a different role in the body). Testosterone has plenty of effects all by itself, and there are many things it does that DHT cannot do.

There are effectively other forms of testosterone (as in more direct analogues, like nandrolone), but testosterone is the only chemical of this type that actually occurs in significant quantities in the human body.

So, for purposes of this discussion, there really aren't two types of testosterone.

[nibel]

DHT is an androgenic hormone, but it is not "a type of testosterone". It will not show up as testosterone in a blood test, and it is not really a substitute for testosterone (it fills a different role in the body). Testosterone has plenty of effects all by itself, and there are many things it does that DHT cannot do.

There are effectively other forms of testosterone (as in more direct analogues, like nandrolone), but testosterone is the only chemical of this type that actually occurs in significant quantities in the human body.

So, for purposes of this discussion, there really aren't two types of testosterone.
Chemicaly speaking, testosterone and dihydrotestosterone differ only by two hidrogen atoms, so you can be contrary and contest my approach or just agree that they are basically the same thing, and for pratical reasons DHT is just an activated form of testosterone. There is really more testosterone than DHT in blood, but in the male organism the substance that does the real work is DHT, since T is converted to DHT prior to the transcription of DNA. Saying that only T is relevant is the same as only looking to tyreoid's T4, while T3 is the one that really does the job. Of course there are the effects of testosterone without the conversion, but they are weaker than DHT.

[Cai]

Chemically speaking, those two hydrogen atoms can make a big difference, Nibel. The difference between DNA and RNA is one oxygen on the ribose sugar of the backbone unit - and yet there's a huge difference in their function.

[nibel]

Chemically speaking, those two hydrogen atoms can make a big difference, Nibel. The difference between DNA and RNA is one oxygen on the ribose sugar of the backbone unit - and yet there's a huge difference in their function.
OK! OK! I'm sorry!!! I didn't know you all are EXPERT endocrinologysts... please forgive my IGNORANCE! You are just SO OVER the details that you forget the real meaning of the stuff. Of course you can't oversimplify things, but to reach a broader audience who NEEDS this information you can't go always by the book and teach a whole hormone course before answering to some question.

Anyway, I thought I was helping the original poster, but you totally killed my intent to help. Good job!

[Cai]

OK! OK! I'm sorry!!! I didn't know you all are EXPERT endocrinologysts... please forgive my IGNORANCE! You are just SO OVER the details that you forget the real meaning of the stuff. Of course you can't oversimplify things, but to reach a broader audience who NEEDS this information you can't go always by the book and teach a whole hormone course before answering to some question.

Anyway, I thought I was helping the original poster, but you totally killed my intent to help. Good job!

Nibel, helping the original poster is fine. But the point Kehleyr and I are trying to make is that there really aren't such things as "good" and "bad" testosterone. DHT is not "another type" of testosterone; it's a completely different chemical.

[nibel]

Like there is no such thing as good and bad cholesterol either, but that was the analogy used in the original post... if we were to discuss VLDL, LDL, HDL and other lipoproteins here that would lead to an unproductive discussion, won't it? It is easier to just assume that there is a good and a bad cholesterol than explain that cholesterol is necessary to the body but in excessive concentrations it can do bad things... I was just following the line of the original post, but nevermind anyway...

[helenr]

I am so impressed by the scientific knowledge that exists on this forum! really! I was being facetious, as you all realize, but I must say that so much has changed in my psyche from the use of spiro. I know often psychosomatic results can fool a person, but I know that I don't get nocturnal erections, that if I was motivated to see what happens with stimulation like an electric vibrator, only a drop of prostate fluid develops. Clearly, even if my blood testosterone level is 501 (normal I was told, but then I took only the least specific test) I know that something has changed.
Body hair is definitely sparser, facial hair regrows slower-maybe 1/3-1/2 the previous rate, don't think I have male odor under my arms nearly as much, so what gives? Has Spiro caused the testosterone to 'get lost' and not do the evil things it does? I feel what I hear is a eunuch calmness-I love women, but don't lust for them. go figure.
I really respect the educated comments I read and welcome some more input! thanks to all of you. helenr

[Pamela Julie]

The bottom line on hormones, males and females have the same hormones in their bodies. The ratios and levels of one hormone to another differ, not just between the sexes, but also based on age. TS's shouldn't be trying to eliminate T or E from their body, but should aim at a level in the normal range of their target gender. That takes a endocrinologist with experience in working with transsexual patients, and a therapist to independently confirm the emotional side is also in line with the goals.