Are you sick, or are you just you?

[Sejd]

Gender Dysphoria makes us believe that we have some kind of rare medical condition which needs to be fixed. The way to fix it, according to the medical authorities is to change our bodies!!! Take hormones or have an operation. What if the approach was quite different? What if being "Trans Gender, or Two Spirit" was looked upon as a gift and not as a curse? Would we still be popping pills and go under the knife? I doubt it for sure. It would be a wonderful thing if we could once and for all, change the way we are judged by society and the medical industry, and just be OK as we are. What a relief.
My question is this, how do you think you would view your condition if it was widely regarded as a special blessing instead of some "mistake"?
hugs
Sejd

[Tiff_ts]

I definitely would not be afraid to step out if it was viewed as a blessing or a gift, but I don't think that hormones or surgeries would face out. From a very young age is when most of us start to feel different, usually before we know what society has to say on the matter in the first place. The fact that we know something isn't right wouldn't change, even if everyone else did. It'd be a lot easier to go for it though.

My two cents..

[GypsyKaren]

Being OK with yourself is up to you, to hell with anybody else. People are going to be judged regardless of anything, there's some who will look down their nose at you for wearing the wrong color socks. My "popping pills" and "going under the knife" was a choice I made for myself, how others perceived me had nothing to do with it. The decision to "change my body" was also a choice that I made for myself, no doctor had a part of it, and I have never had one of my doctors consider anything about me to be a curse or illness, something I've never considered either. Seeing as there's a great deal more non-ops out there than post-ops, I don't think there's a great push by doctors to change anything, if there is it isn't working very well. Society could throw a parade every Sunday for transsexuals and give out free trips to Disneyland, and I'd still have SRS...my choice, my decision to do what's right for me.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Nicki B]

Gender Dysphoria makes us believe that we have some kind of rare medical condition which needs to be fixed.

But - does it? Perhaps your speaking more for yourself...

I regard myself as fortunate to be able to see and understand some of both sides of the fence?

I've heard the suggestion before that there is an 'industry' with a vested interest in making us transition - TBH I don't see it, at least not in the UK?

[Anna the Dub]

My question is this, how do you think you would view your condition if it was widely regarded as a special blessing instead of some "mistake"?
hugs
Sejd

Even if we were lauded and put on a pedestal, I would still want hormones and SRS. I am who I am, and have to be true to myself, irrespective of how other people view me.

[Teresa Amina]

Well, I've wanted my body changed since I was a kid and knew nothing of Gender Dysphoria. Must not be those pesky doctors doing then, eh?

[stacie]

It doesn't matter what the world thinks about gender dysphoria, I don't agree with my body and I still would change it. If it was look as a blessing or gift to have gender dysphoria it would only make it easier to be on hrt and have srs, Plus the insurance companys might pay for it. The rate of suicide would probably drop way down for those who have GD if it was concider a gift because they can have the changes done to there bodies and live as the gender they feel they should be.

[Adam]

But its not the way others view me that counts its me i mean even if i was on a island and new i would be alone for the rest of my life i would still want hormones and ops

[CaptLex]

I decided to transition because I got tired of not seeing myself in the mirror. That said, I will admit that I don't need to transition completely to be me. If others could understand that I'm me regardless of what I look like, that would greatly help my dysphoria. But they don't. So I don't feel that I can be somewhere in between, though mentally I am. I feel that I have to get as close to the other side as I can in order to stop people from perceiving me and addressing me incorrectly. :dry:

Did that make any sense? I know what I meant, but I don't know if I explained it right. :idontknow:

[Sharon]

Gender Dysphoria makes us believe that we have some kind of rare medical condition which needs to be fixed. The way to fix it, according to the medical authorities is to change our bodies!!!

No -- the way to fix it for me, is to change my body, so that my physical appearance matches that of my own self-identification. If I based my decisions on society's rules or expectations alone, I wouldn't have done a thing. And the doctor's work for me, not me for them!


My question is this, how do you think you would view your condition if it was widely regarded as a special blessing instead of some "mistake"?


I don't view myself as special at all, except in that "we are all special in our own way" manner of thinking. I am just me, living my life as I see most appropriate for me alone, and don't expect any special treatment either positively or negatively, although the reality is that others do treat me as different(or "special"). That's on them. The next person will have different values and thoughts and those are just as valid as long as they are being honest with himself/herself.

[Kate Simmons]

Perish the thought Sejd. That would require actual thinking and consideration of others. How would this modern button pushing, impersonal, throw away society ever survive? What a world. Disposable machines, disposable jobs, disposable people. This works well however only if everyone is in a convenient little nook and can be controlled. Oh, you are not a man or a woman, go to that odd bin over there and we will get to you eventually and "fix" you so you "fit in" somewhere. Problem is, a lot of us don't really need "fixing' because we know exactly who we are. What a shame that such a sham is perpetuated among supposedly civilized people. what a shame indeed.:straightface:

[Felix]

Lex I understand what ya mean as in part I feel the same somewhere in the middle but stronger masculine feelings than feminine. I have probably picked a hard position because I want to have what I want and the parts I want and I don't see why I have to be in one box or the other to be accepted. I don't know where its all gonna take me but I'll just have to see one day at a time. If society was more understanding and more fluid in it thinking it would make life a lot easier like Sejd said xx Felix :hugs:

[Cai]

I've always believed (since I knew I was trans, anyway) that this was more a gift than a curse. It gives me such a unique perspective on life - I truly get to see everything from both sides of the equation. I think I'm a much better person for it. I've been given the opportunity to fight for my beliefs, to see people change their minds because of me, to make a difference in the world.

I know I'm not ill - I'm mentally stronger now than I've been in most of my life. Having society think the same way wouldn't change anything. I really don't care what society thinks of me. I know who I am, and that's what matters.

[Valeria]

Sejd, you assume that we are all "two-spirited". I'm not. That description doesn't apply to me at all. I have one spirit, which just happens to be female, and I *want* to interact with society as a woman.

I started "tucking" when I was 8, even when I was wearing "boy" clothes, simply because I wanted to pretend that thing wasn't there and I didn't want a constant reminder to the contrary. No doctor told me to do that. I didn't read it somewhere. I didn't know there were other people that did that, or that anyone else shared my feelings. I'd never heard of gender dysphoria, or gender identity disorder, or transsexuality. I just knew that something wasn't right.

Also, a substantial number of medical and psychiatric authorities have opposed genital reassignment over the years (some still do). The early people that got such surgeries (trans men and trans women) weren't coerced into them - they actively sought out surgeons that would attempt said surgery. Even today, GRS (and closely related surgeries) is just about the only "elective" surgery that routinely requires permission slips from multiple psychological authorities before you are allowed to proceed. You also have to pay for it completely yourself (I spent about $18k on it, including transportation and lodging costs for myself and my mate). Most insurance won't cover it, and the federal government is trying to deny that it is a legitimate medical expense for tax purposes. I think it's a stretch to imply that having GRS is actually encouraged in our society.

If being two-spirited was socially condoned (or even encouraged), whereas having genital reassignment surgery was discouraged, I'd still have sought the surgery eventually. If surgery were not available, I'd have muddled through life, doing my best to convince myself I was happy. :sad:

Let's put it this way. Even though I've always been sexually attracted to women, even though I've been pretty much continuously in one sexual relationship or another since I was in high school (more than two decades ago), I *never* sexually penetrated anyone with my sex organ in ANY way. I simply wasn't emotionally capable of that act, and I didn't want it (fortunately, I was able to find an understanding lesbian life partner who didn't want that either).


Oh, you are not a man or a woman, go to that odd bin over there and we will get to you eventually and "fix" you so you "fit in" somewhere. Problem is, a lot of us don't really need "fixing' because we know exactly who we are. What a shame that such a sham is perpetuated among supposedly civilized people. what a shame indeed.
To be honest, the more immediate shame is that there are people here that imply I'm some naive dupe coerced into surgery I didn't really want or need.

Just because you enjoy expressing your male and female sides, and just because you don't have a form of gender dysphoria that expresses itself as substantial body dysmorphia with your genitals, that doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same. Please don't speak for those of us that feel (or felt) differently.

This thread exemplifies one of the reasons I'm uncomfortable with people trying to describe being transgendered as a continuous continuum. It reinforces the assumption some people have that the differences between how people at different points on this line feel are quantitative, rather than qualitative. It encourages the belief that how I feel is similar to how you feel, only perhaps a bit stronger (or that I'm just not as good as coping). I don't think it's that simple. I think that I have feelings that are simply different on some issues. Also, many of the people who do not transition seem to have far stronger feelings about presenting in an extremely feminine fashion than me, so it really doesn't seem like a simple scale is applicable.

Even amongst people with GID sufficient to motivate them to transition, the ways in which their gender dysphoria manifests can vary widely (witness the difference between my response and Lex's), so generalities are often inappropriate.

Oh, and the answer is that I'm just me, but making my body more congruent with my female spirit required some medical assistance.

[Kate Simmons]

That's not what I meant Kehleyr. What I meant was that WE are the best judge as to what is best for ourselves, medical and psychological expertise notwithstanding. We don't need "fixing" in the sense that there is nothing "wrong" with us really and we know deep down who we are. Whatever steps we may decide to take, surgically or otherwise to bring us closer to who we feel we should be are entirely our decision and I respect that. If I did offend you please forgive me, it was not intended. I guess it just didn't come out right.

[waspookie6]

It would be more accurate to say there is nothing to be fixed because we now live with a pill for *everything* society. That would be a forced perception, not an internal one.

aaaaaaaand...I lost my thought process after that, it was good but words just get horrifically jumbled on a flat monitor :(
Edit:Glucose back up, so is thought process.

The horrifying thought that one could be 'fixed' with pills instead of addressing the real issue at hand is more prevalent than ever. Got cancer? Take a pill. Got Crohn's? Take a pill...and that one too. Got Dysphoria? Take one of these, a couple of those, two of those at night... that is the drift I was referring to.
It is a forced perception that everything can be "fixed" with a pill or "some therapy". Well, that is one size fits all Western medicine approach - and it is literally killing people from all walks of life both in spirit and physical form.

On the other hand there are those that truly do feel they have a body type that isn't right for them. The difficult part is just being accepted for whomever you are - you are either "this" or "that". You can't be in between. It is a personal preference when it comes to the core of things. Lets respect the personal preference.

Some have gone in search of other ways to look good on the outside and feel good on the inside at the same time. I think, not sure, this is what Sejd is referring to. But the answer to that will never be the same. It is why we even have the word "individual" in everyday language. It exists in almost every language spoken, it is still alive for a reason.

So do what is right for you, as an individual. That is the part we seem to have lost in many societies around the globe and there will be no outside acceptance if there is no semblance of peace on the inside.

[Alice B]

An interesting question. As for myself it would allow me to be more open about my dressing and be able to do it more often. But, I seriously doubt that it would change the basic person I am, not would I really want to change. For me to be free about dressing would be great, but to become full time and take modification steps to my body. I don't think so.

[Valeria]

A hypothetical question that I've often seen asked in trans circles is "if a pill existed that would 'fix' you by removing your gender dysphoria and making you happy to live as the gender assigned at birth, would you take it?".

The answer is generally overwhelmingly no. Most of us don't want to be "fixed" - we want to be who we are, and we don't want our personalities artificially altered.

I don't take estrogen and progesterone to "fix" me. I take them because they are the appropriate hormones for my gender, and through an unfortunate sequence of events my body doesn't naturally produce enough of them.

[Scotty]

I don't see it as a mistake at all, as in guy mode I have the femme capability of being one heck of a negotiator - and I am good at that - perhaps that should have been my career......

In femme mode, I'm just me ;)

I'm confident in femme mode, my self-confidence is not as lacking.

It's a gift, by me, but not to society....I can't control what they feel or think.

[kerrianna]

Everyone's answer will be different Sejd, and I think you knew that when you asked the question.

Kehleyr is right about how the transgender term doesn't really mean we experience things the same way. So in light of that, the only thing we can do is give our individual responses.

And mine is....

I think it would help my self esteem in some ways if being trans was seen as a gift and a good thing by society. In fact, some of the people I have told have reacted in a way that suggests they think it's cool. And it is... in a way.

But I would much rather be cisgendered female and just get on with my life.

I like the fact that I have a broad spectrum to view gender, but the fact is I have that kind of thinking about lots of other things too without having to be a part of them.

The pain I feel at NOT being female is too real and unsettling for me to ignore. Actually I shouldn't say not being female, because that's where the pain comes from, my inner self in discordance with the outer and my social role.

To be revered as 'twin-spirited' would help I guess.... except it feels like a lie to me. But that's me. I have to accept that I am actually only one gender.

If I wasn't I'm not sure I would be experiencing the kind of Gender Dysphoria I do. It's pretty clear to me, as much as intellectually and philosophically I embrace a non-binary gender society, that I am in fact pretty much on one side of the fence. I just happen to be on the neighbour's property right now. :worried:

[Leo Lane]

"There had never been a time when he hadn't thought of himself as one of this company that the mischance of battle had brought together; one with a secret, as many others had of some sort or other; one with an oddity, but there were many of those." -- the thoughts of Laurie Odell in Mary Renault's novel The Charioteer

"We always agreed that left, right or centre, it is still necessary to make out as a human being." -- the words of Ralph Lanyon in The Charioteer

"Greeks asked what a man was good for, and the Greeks were right." -- Mary Renault

These are the words I think of in order to remind myself that my humanity comes before anything else; that individuality is worth celebrating; that my private life is solely my concern.

[Mariah]

both! I have a cold, and lot's of mental issues that are not TG related. and I'm just trying to be the girl I should of been all my life.


keris

[VioletDysfunction]

both! I have a cold, and lot's of mental issues that are not TG related. and I'm just trying to be the girl I should of been all my life.


keris

That would be the same for me, minus the cold'ish. :heehee:


(And I'm finally not too scared anymore, that had prevented me from posting~)

[ZenFrost]

What if being "Trans Gender, or Two Spirit" was looked upon as a gift and not as a curse? Would we still be popping pills and go under the knife?


If being TG was looked at as a gift, then yes, I'd still by vying for hormones and surgery. I'm not doing it because of what society thinks of me, I'm doing it because my body is not what it should be. I think that the fact that society views TG so badly would be more of a compelling reason not to transition... for some it may seem easier to live a lie than be ostracized, but not for me. For me, it isn't a 'how people see me' thing, it's a 'my body doesn't match my mind' thing. So even if everyone loved TGs or the social construct of gender didn't exist, I'd still want to transition because every time I look down, I get surprised at the things that should be there, and wonder why I don't have the things that should.



My question is this, how do you think you would view your condition if it was widely regarded as a special blessing instead of some "mistake"?


Again, it's not how society views me, it's how I do. If society had no concept of gender, I'd still want a male body. When I'm out in public, I like passing because it's like finally being acknowledged as what I am but haven't been acknowledged as before. But I couldn't care less how other's see me because that doesn't change how I feel, that my body isn't right.

[Katie Ashe]

I am Sick. I'm sick of society telling me how to live. My turn... those in CA can't have sex standing, it offends me cause I can't. Those in FL can't skinny dip, cause I can't wear womens bathing suits, Those in Europe can't eat sausage cause it reminds me of big Dcks. Ooops, You right, I'm being an A-O, What does this have to do with me and why should I be concerned. Welll None. It is none of by business what you do, hence I don't even know what you do nor reallt care. I'm sick of society fronting on us. There is nothing wrong with me, I'm tired of being reminded of there is. Why do we need laws to tell stupid people it is ok to live this way, use common sense and leave us alone, pass the laws, stop discrimination against us. We are hated by those on the other side of the country, whom know nothing of us, never met us, or anything like that, yet they are sick of us. I'm sick of trying to pass as normal. Outlaw your own behavior for a change, hipocrites... for I am just me.

[kazeparker]

Whether or not people would consider gender dysphoria as a gift or a curse in the most ideal world, I would still want to change my body--after all, when the definition as it applies to me is that I'm in the wrong body, it doesn't seem right in any instance for me to think that GD is something I shouldn't want to do anything about.

I do understand the idea of being 'blessed' with GD, to some extent. I believe it's really expanded what I could have been without it, in terms of how I see and interact with people. But that's about as far as it goes, as honestly I don't want to be GD, and the only solution that I will accept--rather than what is handed to me--is that I need a new body. And I think this is the case with a lot of people, they wouldn't be comfortable living as solely a GD no matter how much of a blessing it was. Rather, it's motivation to press onward to a goal.

Had GD been something with many solutions to achieve the ultimate end result and it was pushed upon us that surgery was the only option, then sure, something's up. But there's not many equivalent options right now to achieve that desired end result in any sort of equivalence (though I hope to sing a different tune in five or so years). So, honestly, I think surgeries will remain until a better solution comes out for those with GD, rather than when/if people view GD in a different light.

[Sejd]

Thanks for all the wonderful answers. I for sure learned a lot from reading the different views. Everyone is unique that's understandable. I am not against doctors or therapi. I remember how hard is was for myself to find the balance and the point where I could say, :Yes, that's the full me". I have, and so have many others here on the Forum, struggled with our TG ness and family issues. Many have lost their wives and many has lost connection to children and friends. Still we have to be who we are. I always learn something from the many responses posted here, and will continue to learn I am sure.
hugs
Sejd:hugs:

[melissaK]

I like Sejd's reasoning and question posed.

Sejd is right, those of us on this board are fairly uniform in having been raised in a homogenous western culture where, speaking generally: 1) we know we don't match our bodies or social norms; 2) we are told by the cultural majority that we are weird and we are politely shunned at best, physically harassed at worst; 3) when we look for answers to "why" we don't match our bodies or the social norm, there are no answers; 4) when we search for a way to end the shunning, to come off the sidelines and to be with everyone else in the game - the only route our western society offers is to go change ourself with pills and surgeries so society can't even tell we are there. It seems no alternate paths are provided to us.

I get the point of many posters that we CD/TS want exactly what our culture offers as a remedy - to become the opposite gender however that may be possible. We are born on a path to be the opposite gender - to look different than we do. There is no "great committee" who has decreed what we CD/TS can or can't have. We are the ones who have gone to wig shops, electrologists, nip tuck surgeons, and the hormone dispensing pharmacists and asked for all the pieces that make up the transformation solution. Thus, it is us CD/TS who have shaped societies available solutions, not society limiting us to a solution.

I take Sejd to be asking us to think outside our cultural box. To ask how much this "change yourself into the opposite gender" solution is influenced by a lifetime of relentless western cultural peer pressure. She is asking us, is the transformation solution a culturally dependent solution?

Sejd is just asking us to "suppose" that early early on in our lives, when we didn't match social norms, society would have said - "How cool! You are rare and special. Stay among us, don't go off to the sidelines." If we would have been shown affirmation and love, would this have affected us and maybe shifted us on to a path where we learn to be ourself within the body we have.

Well such "hypothetical" questions are hard for me to answer. So much would have changed - its hard to know how that would really affect me.

I think humans are born with a wild combination of genetic differences arising from hard-wired recessive and dominant genes, and then post birth we are exposed to an incalculable number of environmental factors that affect how those genes work and affect the developing body and brain. Most kids develop content with being their given gender. Some of us don't. I didn't. I am not. How much of that "environmental" development is cultural.

A warm cozy society that treated me as special would have been pallative, and would have taken the social sting out of what I am, but I can't hardly imagine it would have erased the constant sense that I am the opposite gender.

To break it down, things that sooth that constant craving (my apologies KD Lang) are only three in number - trying to look like my gender counterpart (clothes, surgereies), changing my internal chemistry (pills or herbs), and having someone who's my friend anyway.

So of those three, what Sejd asks, is to focus on the way society provides us accepting friends, and whether that would make a diference.

I think breaking it out this way is valid as it is a restatement of what others have expressed by asking is the approach of western medicine correct. Western medicine wants to adjust the physical body or physical environment to enhance the body's longevity. Should western medicine place more emphasis on the mind (or spirits) role in the well being of the body?

In Sejd's other posts she has told of immersing herself in a culture that follows a "two spirit" way of knowledge. That is a way to test the values which western medicine and society has not focused upon.

I thought Sejd's immersion comments have elements common with comments of Calliope who's been absent from these boards for a few months. Calliope immersed herself into a communal culture to escape western culture with its inherent pills and surgery solutions.

I thought the approach of following either a two-spirit way of life, or a communal culture, would not work for me. I am entangled in my American Pop way of life. To break from it would cost me more than I desire to pay.

Still, I remain very interested in Sejd's reports, as I do Calliope's. They are testing an important hypothesis. So, thanks for the question Sejd.

hugs,
'lissa

[GypsyKaren]

when we search for a way to end the shunning, to come off the sidelines and to be with everyone else in the game - the only route our western society offers is to go change ourself with pills and surgeries so society can't even tell we are there. It seems no alternate paths are provided to us.

This had absolutely nothing to do with the path I chose. I could have really cared less about being "a part of team", whatever that means, I did it solely for myself for my own reasons, I've never cared about "fitting in" anywhere but with myself. There are alternatives to pills and surgeries, there are a whole lot more non-ops out there than post-ops, I was one myself for a long time and happy for it. As for society not being able to tell we're there, that may be true for some but not all. I don't "pass" a whole lot more often than I do and that's never stopped me, as a matter of fact I enjoy teaching others about us, and I also came out to the world as being TS before I went full time or started my transition.


I get the point of many posters that we CD/TS want exactly what our culture offers as a remedy - to become the opposite gender however that may be possible. We are born on a path to be the opposite gender - to look different than we do.

I'm not trying to become the opposite gender, and I wasn't born the opposite gender to be on a path for, my gender to me has always been correct, I just got in the wrong line when they handed out parts. Sure, I look different now, but so what? It was all about getting my gender and brain in tune with the body so I could feel right instead of wrong. Millions do so every year with plastic surgery, yes for different reasons and yes, not on such a grand scale, but everyone has a right to do whatever is necessary to get that "right" feeling, so I did too.


I take Sejd to be asking us to think outside our cultural box. To ask how much this "change yourself into the opposite gender" solution is influenced by a lifetime of relentless western cultural peer pressure. She is asking us, is the transformation solution a culturally dependent solution?

You seem to be fixated on this "opposite gender" idea, I think that's where you're making a big mistake. Anyway, how did any kind of peer pressure influence me? Do you think I did all of this for the benefit or acceptance of society? If you do, you sure don't know me at all. I've lived outside the box for as long as I can remember, and I've always gone my own way with a F-You attitude to anyone who had a problem with how I chose to live my life, and I've got the battle scars to prove it.


Sejd is just asking us to "suppose" that early early on in our lives, when we didn't match social norms, society would have said - "How cool! You are rare and special. Stay among us, don't go off to the sidelines." If we would have been shown affirmation and love, would this have affected us and maybe shifted us on to a path where we learn to be ourself within the body we have.

Well such "hypothetical" questions are hard for me to answer.

That's the problem with the whole idea, hypothetical questions are impossible to answer. It's like asking "would you take a pill that would make you sweat gold?" Well yeah, but what's the point in considering something that doesn't exist? To me it's a waste of time, call me when it's available at Walgreens and we'll talk.


I think humans are born with a wild combination of genetic differences arising from hard-wired recessive and dominant genes, and then post birth we are exposed to an incalculable number of environmental factors that affect how those genes work and affect the developing body and brain. Most kids develop content with being their given gender. Some of us don't. I didn't. I am not. How much of that "environmental" development is cultural.

Actually, my therapist told me that researchers now believe that transsexualism is not post birth, but rather caused by some sort of trauma to the fetus at around the 5 week stage. I know that for myself, I felt that I was a girl going back to my earliest childhood memory at age 3. I didn't even know what being a girl or boy even meant yet, but I did feel that I was the same as my best friend who was a girl, so I think that's kind of early for any environmental factors to influence anything.


to focus on the way society provides us accepting friends, and whether that would make a diference.

I surely don't think so. In any event, please don't think that I'm knocking you or Sejd or anyone else for their beliefs, I just don't agree is all, at least from where I'm sitting. I'm sure it's possible that there are plenty who see it that way, but I think one common flaw I see is the assumption that we're all the same in how we handle this, and that's far from the truth. For example, I don't get the "2 spirit" stuff, to me it's a bunch of nonsense, but at the same time I applaud anyone who does believe in it, if it makes them happy then I'm happy too, I just think it would be nice if those who feel different got the same.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Sejd]

Thanks MelissaK
Yes, you tied it very well together. It is interesting if one reads the history of TG people in indigenous cultures, even in for eksample India. In India Trans Gender persons are blessed with special duties and perform weddings etc. In the period before Christianity, specially in Northern Europe, Trans Gender people were naturally viewed as Shamans, or wise women. It is a historical fact that only in the past fifty some years have modern medicine played a factor in TG issues. I liked your reflections Melissa and your thoughts are exactly the questions I have asked myself many times.
hugs
:love:
SEJD

[melissaK]

Sorry, but that sounds like a lot of transgender clap-trap. . . . . I hope this doesn't come across as whiny or bitchy either because it's not meant to be. I just wish everybody wouldn't always be so quick to lump me in with others I feel I don't belong with.

Well, the 'clap-trap' comment kinda hurt my feelings. And I think I must have hurt yours with my post to earn the response. For that I apologize.

I tried to note we are all very different, and I guess I could have said more. In our community being recognized for being an individual is a sort of hallowed ground trampled upon by my generalizations.

Generalizing is how we formulate a hypothesis and then we go test it. Obviously you think the hypothesis is flawed and overly broad - a valid argument. Let me run with your point.

Given that TS like you exist today, and if we assume similar persons existed in the past, how did cultures deal with them? That question is the core of Sejd's question. Were TS's before modern western medicine, offered adequate solutions? And is "two-spiritedness" one of the solutions? Sejd invited our input.

From your comments, if you had been born 300 years ago in a Native American Indian culture, you are darn sure being told you are "two-spirited" would not have made you happy. Your comment is echoed by others and I think it's reasonable to generalize that your contention is true and is not a mere byproduct of lack of reflection on the impact being raised in western culture has on your ability to estimate what you would have felt raised away from it.

Taking this conclusion to Sejd's hypothesis, one could say the hypothesis has to be refined - and that TS (of the type who seek and obtain GRS), if they existed 300 years ago, weren't happy with their options. And extending the argument, one could logically posit that, in fact, that sort of unhappiness among members of the population is what shaped and directed our current western culture to develop surgeries and pills as a solution. And the current solution works better than anything done before.

Of course its all just a bunch of theoretical musings about the unanswerable. It was Voltaire who wrote the character in Candide (1758) who quipped "Let's work without theorizing - its the only way to make life bearable."

Well, I've enjoyed the input and discussion.

hugs,
'lissa

[GypsyKaren]

The problem with this whole discussion goes back to the first three words in the thread title, "Are you sick?" One thing I'm starting to see more and more here is an attitude of "this is how I am, so that's how everyone should be, if they're not then there's something wrong with them". We "pop pills", we "go under the knife", we "butcher our bodies", you don't see everything that's posted like I do as a moderator, and you don't see the insults that have been directed at me since I had my surgery, and the other posties have gotten them too.

Like I said, I see everything here. Myself and the other post-ops here do nothing but be supportive and try to help, and we have never said that those who don't follow our path are "sick" or wrong in their feelings, and we have never tried to push our choices or decisions on anyone else. If someone says they're interested in taking hormones and we feel it's not the best idea, based on what they're telling, then we're being "elitist" or "looking down" or feel that "we think we're the only ones worthy" of it. I'm not making this stuff up, I've seen it, both here and in the Crossdressing Forum.

As far as anything to do with 300 years ago, I could really care less. I'm to busy living for today and worrying about what I'm going to cook for dinner, not what my other "spirit" or whatever is up to or how I would have handled things if I was driving a covered wagon. I've somehow managed to survive this long even though I slept through History in high school, if I want to look back I'll pop in a John Wayne movie.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Teresa Amina]

if you had been born 300 years ago in a Native American Indian culture, you are darn sure being told you are "two-spirited" would not have made you happy

No doubt in all cultures most of us wouldn't like the place assigned to us. The problem is it's assigned, without any input from us. But comparing now and any other time/culture misses a BIG difference- 300 years ago (and far more recently) there were no options for changing our bodies. The best you could do is cut your balls off and hope you didn't bleed to death. And then there was no electrolysis or cosmetic surgery of any kind to access. Being Winkte, Two Spirit, or any other role was a damn site better than the recent variation of Western conformity. At least there was a place (however awkward) in the scheme of things for people like us.

[melissaK]

I have a book suggestion for you. It's called "The Riddle of Gender" by Deborah Rudacille. The first part of the book gives some historical background that I think you would find quite interesting.

I am quite proud of my transition and what I've both overcome and accomplished. The answer to the original question is "I am myself-a woman". Karen said like-wise and Kehleyr I know feels the same. We're not dupes of society and/or the binary, we simply know who we are. And that isn't "transgendered". If you're transgendered, fine, I respect that (and I apologize for the language I used), I hope folks see that that respect needs to go both ways.

I'm up for the read - ordered a copy over on Amazon.

I also get that modern feminism (or anti-feminism - the anti-Barbie crowd) is often at odds with MTF surgical solutions. It complicates figuring oneself out if you hold some significant degree of MTF desires, and also hold anti-Barbie values. I thought Calliope exemplified that internal conflict with her tales of buying pink t-shirts and still wanting to live in a commune free from western cultures (or American Pop cultures) influence. (Not sure how to express a FTM corollary).

And, I have tremendous respect for all of you post-ops girls who have the decency to stick around these boards and patiently endure the new members who come and ask the old questions that are new to them. Without your point of view, the board members lose a valuable point of reference.

Early in my self assessment back in the pre-internet days of Tapestry magazine, my correspondence with two different pre-op TSs, through their year of full time living, then GRS and transistion, helped me figure out my self. I was very very similar to them. I knew more about their surgeries and pre-surgical prep steps than they did, but they knew something about themselves that I didn't. I couldn't have learned that without them.

hugs,
'lissa

PS, And Karen, I understand your complaint about the title. I just flat out ignored the title. We aren't sick, you aren't sick. I know the question Sejd was asking was rhetorical, and his point was, DSM III and IV perjorative classifications, are part of the western culture 'gate keeper' hurdles for TSs to get care in the US. But that's a big controversial topic by itself and I just wanted to discuss the larger question I thought Sejd was asking.

And if SRS would make me pay more attention to immediate things like cooking, or planning a meal, rather than abstract theorizing, my family might pay for me to go do it. :heehee:

[GypsyKaren]

Thank you Melissa, and I apologize if I came on to strong with my views, I just wanted to show how I see things is all, you have a nice day! :hugs:

Karen Starlene :star:

[deja true]

Thank you all. I've not been here (at this or any forum) long, but this thread has expanded my knowledge and appreciation of transexual ( as opposed to TG or CD) issues, desires and frustrations on an order of magnitude over my last 25 years of reading. The varieties of opinions and insights presented here open my eyes and lead me to respect you all more than you can ever know.

respect & love,

deja

(Several weeks ago in a thread I don't remember the name of, I also posted a long screed on the uselessness of the "spectrum" model of gender identity, though not as plainly as the one in this thread. And, needless to say, I'd like to hear further discussion on any alternatives to that obviously unworkable theory from your varied points of view. I'll not post this idea as a new thread, leaving that up to you if you find it interesting enough. d )