All GGs dress rubbish etc etc. Open to everyone.

[Julie York]

It's o.k. Keep your hair on. You'll find this interesting.:D


I was having a think about the various threads I have seen over the years about how GGs dress and how they don't live up to the CD idealism. Well in most cases (in my opinion) the person posting the criticism isn't being as offensive as they are accused of being. Not intentionally anyway. It's simply that they haven't really thought it through and are using a judgement value of femininity that is nostalgic and retrospective.

Which brings me to the interesting bit.....

I remember very clearly my Mother dressing up to go shopping in town....making an effort to look nice, bit of lipstick, etc And although it was before my time (really!) I recall that there were very often signs on pubs that stated 'no work clothes' and guys used to wear a suit to go to the pub, or in fact any public outing other than work.

It was a habit, and people 'dressed up' to go out in public as a sign of self esteme, self value and self worth. You wanted to look 'nice' so that people thought you were doing well for yourself. The only people who didn't make an effort to 'look nice' were vagrants or very seriously NOT doing well for themselves. They had no self respect! And it is this lack of 'self respect' that some CDs see when he sees women not dressing like they used to 30 years ago. It's an outdated value judgement, but given my previous explanation.....it makes sense. It's just that it is a value judgement based on upbringing, and stuck in the past, rather than the here and now.


So I was wondering at what point it all started to shift. When did dressing like you were at work, even when you were at a social function, become fashionable? When did 'work clothes' become something you could wear socially in a pub without looking as if you were living in a cardboard box somewhere?

I think it must have been something to do with denim becoming fashionable in the 60s. It was (I think) MEN who started to dress down!! It was MEN who started the fashion of 'casual wear' when they wore the same clothes to the pub as they wore to the factory.

Anyway, my main point is this......The value a CD puts on appearance and what 'looks nice' is usually 30 years out of date. I love the fashions of the 50s. Heels, stockings, flouncy skirts etc etc. And I love to see them on women because....I like them!!:D I am nostalgic in my views of what 'looks nice'.

Equally, many women may feel rather saddened that they rarely get a chance to see a 'sharp dressed man' on a Friday night these days.

Erm.....I sort of lost my thread somewhere. But well you get the idea.

:D

[Carol A]

Oh I get and understand where you are coming from, my mother was brought up to be a lady at all times and my wife has told me more then once "if your going to do it, do it proper". I believe the down fall came when women started wearing pants.
Women now a days just don't want to go through all the hassel of getting dressed up except at Easter and a Christmas party. Heck women even dress down to go to church, man not in my day. :2c:

[kathy001]

OK, my 2 centavos,
i think there is a clear delineation between casual dress and slobbiness! Most guys have been and will continue to be slops IF women allow it! In a historic sense women have always seen that the men and theirselves dressed appropriately for certain social functions.
The issue as i see it now, women with their new historic wearing of pants have unfortunately taken on other male attributes including slobbiness.

First impressions are all one can go by when first glimpsing a stranger in public. When i see a GG with unmanicured nails or broken flaking off nail polish, bad hair, absolutely no makeup, etc. i can't help but to extrapolate those indicators to bad hygiene, dirty underwear, dirty bra, etc.!
If she doesn't tend to her obvious appearances, she sure as hell ain't gonna attend to the unobvious appearances IMO.

In the final analysis, yes we're all free to be slobs.
Isn't this a great slobby country!

OK Ms. moderator, hope you didn't run out of locks!!

[CaptLex]

I believe the down fall came when women started wearing pants.
Here we go again . . . :rolleyes:

[deja true]

I agree, Julie... It's them damn hippies and their scruffy levis that started the whole thing!

Seriously, though, hun... You can still see lots of people (men and women) dressing up for special events if you go to the right places. Nobody dresses up anymore for the everyday event; trip to the store, the pub, the PTA meeting. No need to really. Everyday errands and activities only need everyday clothes. That's a blessing, too. Everyday clothes don't need as much care as dressy clothes.

But try any good restaurant or theatre production (not cinema). Or any important event like weddings or graduations or an appointment with the bank manager. People still dress up but only if the occasion really demands it.

And, too, I think the general availability of more and cheaper clothes has led us in this informal direction, too. Remember when you were a little one (I'm guessing 1950's here)? Your dad's closet probably had only two suits and the rest of his clothes fit in one or two drawers.Your mom only had 2 or 3 good dresses (one black one only for funerals) and the rest of her stuff was for wearing 'in the house'. These days we're drowning in all the cheap clothes we get at the hundreds of shops in the mall and big box stores. 30-40 years ago there were no Walmarts or floods of catalogs to keep us buying, buying, buying. There were 1 or 2 good shops in the neighborhood and that's where you got new clothes when you needed them, not when you wanted them!

More disposable income, many more shops and the modern plague of creeping consumerism have all turned us away from being clothes horses to clothes junkies.

deja

Yep, your right! The title made me jump right here, especially after the catfight earlier this morning... Wish that was allowed to play out!

[Vieja]

I used to feel a bit sad when shopping to see women dressed in rumpled clothing and scuffed sneakers. But over the years I began to realize that quite a bit of effort goes into getting dressed, hair, makeup, etc. So for a quick trip to a mall or the local mart why bother. For me the thrill of dressing is enough to make me look for a reason to do it.

One thing does still bother me and that is the need some young women have to show off their midriff. I guess I am just to old and set in my ways to appreciate that. It is a changing world and this old fogy just has difficulty coping with it. Of course it may just be that they don't make shirts an blouses as long as they once did.

Vieja

[TGMarla]

Yeah, I'll agree with that. It's too bad, in a way, that we all just don't care one hoot what others think of our appearances these days.

I try not to be a total slob when I go places. But I don't wear ties to the local pub, either.

As for the ideal that we, as crossdressers, tend to put forth, well part of why we do what we do is so that we can get all decked out in really nice clothes. We like the whole ordeal of putting on makeup, hosiery, high heels, and various pretty skirts, tops, and dresses.

To assume that everyone wants that all of the time is preposterous. WE want that all the time, because we like the eye candy. Look at it this way. Since women don't always put on the ritz, it makes it all the better for us when they do. I imagine that women feel the same way about men.

[Jenny Beth]

I get your point but times have changed, no longer are nice clothes some sort of status symbol or something to have to wear to be allowed in some place. I live in a very rural area and to see anyone dressed nicely other than bank tellers or real estate agents they are either on their way to a wedding or a funeral. That said it's still true that in many clubs and restaurants there's a dress code and I don't mind that at all. You should see our local pub on Friday afternoons, loggers and construction workers fill the place and many with their bellies hanging out of sweaty t-shirts......eeeewwwwww!!!! :eek:

[kathy001]

Remember when you were a little one (I'm guessing 1950's here)?
I sure do! My mother always insisted that the entire male population of my family dressed both appropriately and neatly for just shopping excursions, visiting friends or relatives. A suit and tie was her ironclad MANdatory rule for Sunday services.
No more is this slobbiness more apparent than the way kids go to High School these days. Some of the girls look like downright hookers or Elvira wanna be's!
What ever happened to school dress codes? I went to a private grade school where a tie and a shirt was required which is still true in some of those schools. Later in Public High School, no hair below the ear, had to wear a belt and the for the girls any skirt shorter than knee length and they got sent home. Same with the boys if they violated their dress code criteria.

Those good ol days when society in general cared about how they looked are Gone With the Wind.

[Scotty]

I'm fairly old fashioned myself, although I don't dress up often in mens clothes I clean up nice when I do.

But when I see a female friend in a dress I will always compliment her on how nice she looks. I think even women find that compliment appealing. I know several women that just were not raised wearing dresses and when they get the courage to wear one and get the compliments it really helps their self esteem...

[Deborah Jane]

I think i understand the point Julie is trying to make here!!
In the past women always dressed smartly and left the the house wearing full makeup, were nicely manicured and hardly had a hair out of place. [The ideal of many c/ders].
But!! This was also a time when men always wore a tie, often wore a suit [except in certain jobs] and very often wore a hat.
We seem to have had a lot of posts recently where some are critising women for not wearing the so called ideal!!
Bye the same idea are we now going to start seeing posts from GGs asking why, when we are in drab why we don,t wear suits, ties, and even trilbys? [I bet a few wouldn,t object to us dressing like that!!].
I think as times change what becomes normal daily wear for EVERYONE changes too. I think society as a whole dresses down nowadays so why pick on GGs for not dressing "to the nines" all the time when most of us rarely dress to what some women may call ideal either.
Just my :2c:...And if i,ve missed the point of your thread Julie..Sorry!!

[Cai]

i think there is a clear delineation between casual dress and slobbiness!

Absolutely. A woman (or a man) going out in a pair of jeans, sneakers, and a (not torn or holey) t-shirt is not a slob - that's casual dress. A woman (or a man) who goes out with their hair combed but not done up is not a slob - again, casual. No makeup - casual.

Yes, sometimes people (of all genders) go out looking like they have no decent clothing. Sometimes people walk around looking like they don't know what a comb is. And yes, it would be nice if those people took a moment to care about their appearance.

HOWEVER, just because someone is dressed casually does not mean they don't care about their appearance. Especially if you're defining casual as "no makeup and in pants". I know (quite attractive) women who don't wear skirts and makeup to very dressy/professional setting.

[Stephanie Anne]

You know most of that type of dress you call "dressed up" was and is not only impracticable but uncomfortable. That and most of it was designed to enhance the fertility of a woman so she would be more attractive to a man.

Downfall when women started wearing pants?!? That is like saying when women started to have rights society went down hill!

I for one am happy that women finally have the comfort and freedom to dress as they wish and not feel they have to get dolled up just to go to the store.

I think there is a clear difference between wanting to look sexy and feeling you have to.

[kathy001]

Downfall when women started wearing pants?!? That is like saying when women started to have rights society went down hill!
Well!!
First the braless look, wearing of pants, then the hose-less craze, now being a slob is perfectly OK!
What's the next logical step...wearing jock straps over their pants to prove their equality with men?

I'll go one step further and say the invention and wide-spread use of the 'pill' probably had more to do with all this than any other factor.

The age old question begs again, "what do woman want?" :confused:

[GypsyKaren]

Well!!
First the braless look, wearing of pants, then the hose-less craze, now being a slob is perfectly OK!
What's the next logical step...wearing jock straps over their pants to prove their equality with men?

I'll go one step further and say the invention and wide-spread use of the 'pill' probably had more to do with all this than any other factor.

The age old question begs again, "what do woman want?" :confused:

We are not going to go down this road again, anymore stuff like this will be removed and the poster will be blocked from the thread.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Christina Louise]

Well!!
First the braless look, wearing of pants, then the hose-less craze, now being a slob is perfectly OK!
What's the next logical step...wearing jock straps over their pants to prove their equality with men?

I'll go one step further and say the invention and wide-spread use of the 'pill' probably had more to do with all this than any other factor.

The age old question begs again, "what do woman want?" :confused:

These crazy women will be wanting the vote next...:rolleyes:

[Stephanie Anne]

Oh dear I have to apologize first for stirring the pot but WTF??

Half the population of this planet is women. The only difference between men and women is that women naturally can give birth which to me in a simplistic sense makes them superior to men.

What do women want? They want the freedom to do and have the same rights as men. That means to me they can want whatever they please they have the right. Granted I find someone dressing like a 5 year old unattractive to me but that goes for any sex.

Everyone has come a long way and these type of oppressive beliefs no longer have a place in the world.

[Kate Simmons]

Those days are gone but not forgotten. Times were simpler back then and Mom and apple pie were the "buzz words" of the day. We've come a long way baby in more ways than one.:happy:

[waspookie6]

I'm giggling.
My Grandma's, all of them, wore pants usually "Dickies". This is because they were all farm families and working the family farm in heels just didn't quite work out...
Its been generations that women haven't dressed up except for special occasions and as mentioned, one or two really nice dresses not an entire closet full. Men were the same way in our families, had one nice suit and set of shoes. That was pretty much it for the "wardrobe".

When later in life as the children moved out and finances were a little better, they would go on trips where they dressed up every day for whatever event. It was a treat! So was make up, very thin case for all they needed (one shade of lipstick, powder case, eyebrow liner).

There is also been a huge gap between classes and it requires women to work, take care of the kids, do the shopping and errands, endless.
This is not so they can have a new car every year, its to put food on the table and live where they don't have to fear for their children to play outside the front door. Some women work because they have no other option - divorce being easier has left many women to take up being rolls once held by men. And some can now be whatever they choose - a surgeon, lawyer, Senator (possible president) which is comforting to other GG's and men as well.

So Julie, it wasn't so much the 60's as it was the 40's! When we hit WWII, women had no choice but to get dirty, wearing pants and doing everything their husbands did. Some never made it back. Widows with children rarely found a man to marry her and most could not survive on any social service to allow them to keep from living in squalor. They went to work but stayed shy of public eye.

I suppose to answer your question: women have been in the closet longer than men for at least half a century if not more. :heehee:

Oh, footnote...with the advent of television in the 50's came a different twist in society much like the internet has now.

It was a marketing plan to advertise a new refrigerator, toaster, car, or house development. The shows were incidendary but they did reflect the first "keeping up with the Jones" mindset. Think about it. Every single show that aired had the latest appliance, car and "middle class" home that at the time, many could afford. It was a 9 to 5 world again but we keep getting on and off that train every 50 years or so ;)

[shirley1]

Oh dear I have to apologize first for stirring the pot but WTF??

Half the population of this planet is women. The only difference between men and women is that women naturally can give birth which to me in a simplistic sense makes them superior to men.

What do women want? They want the freedom to do and have the same rights as men. That means to me they can want whatever they please they have the right. Granted I find someone dressing like a 5 year old unattractive to me but that goes for any sex.

Everyone has come a long way and these type of oppressive beliefs no longer have a place in the world.

but should men be able to have the same rights as women ? or is that a right only for ggs cause theyre superior ?

[waspookie6]

but should men be able to have the same rights as women ? or is that a right only for ggs cause theyre superior ?
Rhetorical?
I only ask because up until 1950, men were legally entitled to his children in any court. If there was a divorce, the father got custody if he wanted it, not the wife.

Just a little interesting fact ;)

[SherriePall]

It wasn't only the hippies who started the fire. In the mid-60's I was the first to wear blue jeans (OK, that's denim to many of you) to class at college because the weather was terrible one day and I didn't want to ruin any of my dress pants.
If I knew then what I know now, I would have been the first to wear pants to class instead of a skirt.

[Julie York]

Good grief I turn my back for two minutes..

I started this thread to discuss the development of fashion, not to dig up all the same fluff about men this women that. And to point out that the imagery CDs often prefer is an idealised nostalia. Try and keep on topic.

Thank you to the folk who got it.

[deja true]

Erm.....I sort of lost my thread somewhere. But well you get the idea.

:D

But, Julie! This is the path you led us down!

Sorry it wasn't what you wanted. Want to try again?

deja

[Julie York]

But, Julie! This is the path you led us down!

Sorry it wasn't what you wanted. Want to try again?

deja


The path I lead down was intended to look at the subject from a new angle. If I'd wanted to do all that accusation stuff I would have done.

[Sinthia]

Julie . . . The only thing that is permanent is change. That is life, for good or bad. Personally, I think that change, in general, is good. There are some things, like short skirts and dresses, that I prefer left alone. But that is just me. As for womens attire changing to a more relaxed style, why not? Who wants to wear heels and a nice dress 16 hours a day? Not me. (Ten maybe.) But after work, letting yourself relax, that is why you went to the bar, seems ok to me. Just do not come in with filthy, raggedy clothes. And do not be so quick to judge a book by its cover. Even you like to be accepted in your dress, instead of the pants your Mom taught you to wear. This post is meant to be enlightning, not brow-beating. -- Sinthia

[ChristineRenee]

Times change...people change. Simple as that.

[Julie York]

There's about 3 people who actually understood what I was getting at, or bothered to read my post so they understood it.


I was trying to discover what social change took place and when.

[shirley1]

i think i understand your thread - things must have changed around the late 60s and 70s - jeans became more commonly worn by both men and women - sportswear took off - there is a lot more choices of clothing these days - most people dont want to dress in work clothes all the time when they are in their own spare time

women still like to dress up to go out i see a lot where i live wearing dresses and full skirts its very fasionable at the moment - maybe a lot of cders just like the styles of the 40s and 50s cause they were the days when women dressed very feminely all of the time before most wore trousers/pants - i personally dont think there has ever been a better time to be a gg than right now they can wear just about any style of clothing masculine or feminine particulary if they are young - if i was a gg i dont think i would wear dresses and skirts all the time i think i would still like to relax in trackie bottoms and tshirts some of the time - its good to have the choice

if i have got your thread wrong then i apologise maybe i am just not reading it right

[Julie York]

if i have got your thread wrong then i apologise maybe i am just not reading it right

Nope that's just fine. :thumbsup:

[Jilmac]

You have made a very good point Julie. I am a child of the 60's, started dressing seroiusly in 1960 at age 15. At that time girls and women alike, dolled up to go out. My sisters would always wear a dress or skirt on a date, even if it was just to a movie and a bite to eat afterwards, school events like a football game, or a dance, Or perhaps even a sleepover at a girl friend's house. My mom wore dresses at home while doing housework.

It was quite different with taverns (pubs) as I remember. The majority were workingman's taverns and were located close to the shops and factories. Guys who worked in the construction trades, factories, truck drivers, cops, even stockyard workers would go to their favorite tavern after work. I think the downtown taverns were more likely to have the suited clientelle, and then there were the clubs that offered entertainment, most of them had some sort of dress code.

I think the trend started changing in the late 60's and early 70's as college and university students rebelled against "the establishment". Also at that time was the womens lib movement for equal rights. I dont know how it was in the UK then, but it was a time of great change in the states. I liked the clothes and styles back then, but I have changed with the times to try and keep up with all the latest trends. There are still some GG's who get dolled up for a night out but many of them now are wearing pantsuits or slacks with a fancy top. Luv and :hugs: Jill

[waspookie6]

When did it change across the board. :o

In 1966 public schools finally said GG's could wear pants instead of dresses. My mom was relieved because she didn't have to sew dresses for us anymore, she could take us shopping for "stuff off the rack". I remember the first pair of pants she bought me...horrific yellow with blue sorta large flower things on them. Horrific as in your neighbours almost blind Grandma could see you walking home from school 5 blocks away.


lordy I'm stupid sometimes!

[Cristi]

I don't think this has anything to do with gender. 'Acceptable' dress for men has changed just as much, but it just isn't as noticeable.

Even when I was a kid (in the late 60s) men and boys made MUCH more of an effort to look good whenever they went out. Button down shirts, dress shoes. Dinner out (unless it was 'fast food') meant pressed pants and a nice shirt.

Now I'm a bit disappointed if I look forward to going out to a nice meal, then arrive to find most of the people in jeans and t-shirts. It just isn't as much of a nice event worth looking forward to if nobody makes the effort to look their best.

So I don't think I have a double standard about women's clothes (and missing the old styles)... I feel the same way about how men are looking these days.

For what it is worth, when *I* go out for a nice meal, I wear dress pants, a nice button down shirt and try to look my best, even if nobody else there seams to care.

[Samantha B L]

Here's my two cents: Some of the threads about the way GG's have been dressing in the past like 25 years sort of sound like a page out of the constitution of The Women Hater's Club in the 3 Stooges. Don't get me wrong. I like for women to dress sort of fastidious and neatly,yet sexy. But that could be because I'm a CD and that's just how my mind works I guess. I have a tendency to dress sort of neatsy and even kinda nerdy for my daily male drab clothes but I haven't dressed very sharp in 2 or 3 months because it's been winter up here in the St. Paul/Minnesota area and me and everything else is covered up in snow so for weeks I've looked like a slob. But let's all use a little sense. Many of us remember those good old days when the ladies weren't allowed to wear jeans to school on snowey days unless the principle gave special temporary permission!? How would any one of us CD'rs like it if we were told we couldn't dress. Maybe by some sort of dictatorial decree of some kind. So think twice before you criticize the way a GG looks or something she's wearing. And really,it's best to keep it to yourself if it's a negative opinion. I mean,some of us remember Eddie Murphy's Dion Dion character on SNL. I mean,is it that important?
Plenty of women still dude up in all the good stuff,sequined gowns,blue eye shadow,expensive jewelry. But common sense tells you all those things are too much hassle on weekdays or Saturdays with the kids at the mall.

[MsToriJones]

Mom use to make us all 3 (I also have a sister) matching dresses. There are many pics of us all when we were little out and about wearing these things.

In the early 70s is when I remember wearing more shorts and pants, but even then when we went out we dressed. so for me it was mid to late 70's when this changed. I don't know why but it did.

I sure do miss those days

[Jacqui]

Julie, I think it started with Mrs. Emma Peel back in the mid 60's when she proved that women can look damn sexy wearing pants. And Ken Griffey Jr., at the 1993 All Star Game, showed that men could look cool wearing their baseball hats backward wherever and whenever they wanted.

[brendaisagirl]

Julie,
I think the change was due to so many women having to join the work force. And so many jobs opening up for women, we are no longer at home doing the June Cleaver things, we are working 40 hours a week, and some of us wear heals and hose all day at work and do not want to dress up for shopping, and I don't mean sloppy. The sloppy thing is overboard. Casual is how most of us go around on days of and other off times, sloppy is how I clean the house.

[Nicole Lee]

Times change...people change. Simple as that.
agreed.

[LotusFlower]

Even though things have changed I think it is good to think that a women may have to dress up for work and wear heels. Even though most CDS find this a comfort thing when you stand and walk most of a day it is not so comfy. Also many of us have children and some days you are lucky that you get a shower.
I don't dress up much but I did to go to the bar I wore jeans and a nice shirt. I was a child of the 80's and I would rather be comfy then look good.

[jennifer41356]

I think it all depends on the area or even the workplace...many places that you are meeting the public, you see people more professionally dressed, ie, skirts and suits

when I lived in Japan, the Japanese women were always wearing dresses and skirts..the young ladies would dress like they were going clubbing and it was their way to look different from the norm...many working women were required to wear dresses or company uniforms which were dresses, so a lot depends on the situation I believe:love:

[O2B Barbara]

If we look at fashion down throughout the ages there has been major changes made in almost every century. Some changes out of necessity, some out of practicality. WWII started a new trend for women with the depiction of "Rosie The Riveter", slacks were just necessary.

I for one can still appreciate a nicely dressed person of either sex. I can understand the time involved with looking nice. Girdles & dresses or suit & tie are no longer the norm but rather the exception. There is still alot of time involved in trying to look nice.