Do we really pass?

[PatriciaT]

Hi,
I posted this in reply tro a topic that came up on another forum and I thought I would toss it out here:

This question of should we try to pass constantly comes up as it is a rather important issue. If you really think about it is also a lot more complicated than it might seem.
I see a lot of postings in which CDs say they almost always pass, or usually pass or even never pass. I feel these comments are irrelevant in most cases. There are too many factors and invariables at work. For example, the younger you are the more likely you are to pass in many cases because the features of younger men more resemble those of young women. As males get older facial features become harder. Sometimes with older males features may soften and a senior CD might then pass more often. Gaining or losing weight could be a factor.
First of all, as a general rule we should at least try to pass. Most people are busy, and if we look reasonably well they will probably not take out the time to look so closely at us. You could argue that this is really means being ignored or blending in and that is not a bad thing, especially for some of the larger CDs who might have trouble passing. Still, if you try to pass, you at least have a chance at achieving this situation.
If you go to a store or restaurant and are treated well, even called Ma’am, are you really sure the person you are dealing with truly feels you are a genuine GG? Is this person just being polite? How can you tell? The first time you meet someone like this you might pass, but would you pass if you kept going back, say four or five times? More than likely the person would eventually read you but might well still play along if you are dressed well and behaved properly. Can you really be sure what the other person is thinking? That person might just feel uncomfortable addressing a person en femme as “Sir,” and might even be afraid to!
In the end result you can only be reasonably sure you are passing through a considerable amount of interchange over a long period of time with a person. A one time deal with 10 different persons is not a good standard to use for passing. You might have a good “first time” passing ratio. What about the second or fifth time? Ten times with one person could be a good standard, however, if that person constantly treats you as a female. Still, how sure can you be? Sometimes guys make a pass at us. This does not mean that we are really passing but only at that one moment in time you have passed. It might not happen the second time you meet that person. Hence the best thing is never to get involved this way. It’s far too dangerous.
If you want to talk about real or genuine passing then you need a definition and some criteria. The ultimate passing would seem to be knowing someone who sees you fairly often, has no clue that you are male and treats you as a normal friend, accepting you just as any other female friend. In a case something like this you can say with a high degree of certainty that you are passing. Anything other than this is a lower or lesser degree of passing.

If you can go out and about en femme, be treated well, and are generally accepted, then you can say you are accepted. This is an achievable goal for a lot of and even most CDs. Passing is perhaps something you can keep in the back of your mind as a goal to work toward but not one you might actually achieve.

I once paraphrased Abe Lincoln and with no disrespect made for this truly great man, changed his words,

“You can pass with some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot pass with all of the people all of the time.”

Patricia

[shirley1]

good post but i am struggling to read all of it - need to leave some gaps for the eyes - i have been told recently passing not that important - for some of us it is others its not - some of us will never pass - i dont know yet whether i will or could - but i am of the opinion more and more it doesnt matter if you have the confidence and the need is great enough

[RikkiOfLA]

If you define passing as convincing everyone that you are a FAB (Female At Birth), probably very few of us (not me) pass. Asked for ID? Mine has a male name on it, and that should blow it right there.

But if you redefine passing slightly--to mean that they can see you are presenting as female and should be treated with respect as a woman, passing is within the reach of most of us. It's more an attitude than the luck of body features or the skill of perfect grooming.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,
Rikki

[Holly]

I pass all the time... on my terms. Life is not a beauty contest where we are judged on our physical presentation or poise. When I go out, I do my best. I dress appropriately and behave in a ladylike manner. I cannot help, nor do I particularly care if some stranger thinks I am an attractive GG, an ugly, silly old man in a dress, or someone somewhere in between. I've been working a long time to try and discover who (or what) I am and as long as I present the most truthful and accurate me that I am capable of doing, as far as I'm concerned, I "pass."

[SweetCaroline]

I think hardly any of us "pass", as in being fully mistaken for girls, so I think it's irrelevant. We all blend in or present ourselves at different levels.

I don't go out to pass anyways. I go out so that people see me as a T-Girl. And reconsigned me as Trans-gendered. So that they will see that we are out there, and that we can not be stopped.

[sandra-leigh]

First of all, as a general rule we should at least try to pass.

Sez who? :rasp:

Twice in the last week, I flew wearing a long skirt, tights, a womens waist-length jacket, and a top in which the bulges of my forms were moderately visible (outbound) or quite visible (return.) No makeup, no wig (and so no ID slash "disguise" concerns). Male face, male hair, women's clothes -- and not even a hint of a problem. The people in the airport paid little or no more attention to me than they would have if I were in pure male clothes -- even when I went to the male washroom wearing my skirts. (The one time I noticed anyone paying attention to me was when I was having trouble controlling everything I had to carry, and had to bend down to pick something up {in my skirt, recall} -- and even then it was just the normal sort of polite attention that anyone might get from a random stranger concerned about whether you are about to have a spill.)

So if I can fly, obviously transgendered, in Canada, and the staff and customers don't mind, then why should I "at least try to pass" ?

What's the name of the game here? To wear what one wants and be comfortable doing so? Or to be "imitation women"?

Did I look like an "ugly man in a dress"? Even taking into account that it was a skirt rather than a dress that I had, the answer was clearly "NO": I wore my femme clothes naturally and with pride and a smile. People who saw me very likely observed that I was happy, not that I was "weird".

[Genifer Teal]

This question of should we try to pass constantly comes up as it is a rather important issue. If you really think about it is also a lot more complicated than it might seem.


It is so complicated that "Do we pass?" and "Should we try to pass?" are two entirely different questions.

I'll go back and finish reading your post now.

Acceptance is all I need and I get plenty of that.

Gen

[Glenda]

It is not that difficult to pass if you can apply make-up well, look and act natural and feel at ease. I've attended parties where people knew I was going to dress enfemme and still didn't recognize me until much later in the evening. One guy I know kept hitting on me until the bartender told him it was me. One of the waitresses served our table a half dozen times before she stopped and said, "Oh my God, I didn't even recognize you." That felt good. If you define passing as being able to fool a sales associate in a store you frequent or go to a movie theater without being "outed" then you should also realize that they have a constant stream of people coming and going.

Acceptance is what we should be striving for. I go out to socialize and interact. If I frequent a place, I certainly expect that they will eventually (if not immediately) recognize that I am a crossdresser. Being accepted in these situations is what I desire. I certainly put effort into looking good and being presentable, but if we are meeting people then they will eventually know and hopefully accept. Of course, I don't take any treatments to feminize my appearance. If that was my choice, then I definitely think it is possible for people to not have a clue that you were born male.

Most women (and a very few men) are very observant. They notice almost everything. Others (especially men) just give a cursory glance. Just because someone treats you with respect doesn't mean they don't recognize you are a male. And lets face it. Some of us have more feminine features than others. For those, and I guess I'm one, it is easier to pass.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Why do you think that the younger you are the better you can pass that is not true at all. I know a lot of young Cd's who can not pass and i know a lot of older Cd's who can pass and vise of versa.

Some of the best looking Cd's I have seen are full figures, large as you would say. A lot of what you are saying in your post I do not agree with at all come to think of it I do not agree with anything you are saying in you post.

Acceptance like Genifer said is what you want hell it is what we all want, no body relay pass, a lot of times I get call ma'am when I am in drab and so do a lot of others dose that mean that the SA is just trying to make me feel
accepted........or dose he/she think I am a woman.


LA CINDY LOVE

[EllenTheWonderGirl]

though am sure it has merit, and will later, however......

We pass in different ways at different times within and without ourselves, and the purpose is always to be

ourselves.

I've gone different routes. I lived the female life for months, and then gave it up for over a decade for reasons I have explained.

Now.

I go out to the friggin' mailbox, I go out to the neighbors house, I go to the post office and bank...


fear.

We have nothing to fear other than our fear of not understanding, and taking precautions for, others misunderstandings.

Yes. I'm rambling

peace

[tamarav]

Sometimes I pass and sometimes I don't. I have a backup plan when I don't (third degree Black Belt in Karate) and a great stand-up set of jokes. I just act like I do all the time.

I just don't care!

Tami

[EllenTheWonderGirl]

will take one a long way. Having a sense of humor will diffuse many situations

[sandra-leigh]

Some of the best looking Cd's I have seen are full figures, large as you would say.

At the CD conference I was at last week, the bartender was a full-figured woman (GG) -- with an even bigger attitude (and I mean that in a nice way!) Most of the crossdressers were smaller than she was, and many of them were (when done up) "prettier" or "more beautiful" than she was. But there was never any question that she was female, and she had the respect and admiration of everyone there, because she had Personality and Presence. She had a great time hosting us, and told her husband that we were "the nicest people" -- and I saw her genuinely outraged on our behalf when two drunken young men tried to spoil our evening.

In real life, we do not recognize a "real woman" based upon body size or hair-do or jewelry or breast size or makeup or prettiness; each of those may be clues, but there is something more (that I would have a hard time naming.)

[Kate Simmons]

I guess my questions regarding this would be: By whose standards? and For what purpose? We all have different motivations and reasons for what we do. Some of us go out just for the feeling of freedom that crossdressing gives us. Some go out just for the experience in mingling with the population in general. Another thing is how much does it matter to the individual doing it and what if anything are they trying to "prove" and to who?

I, personally, don't spend a lot of time among people I don't know and would rather spend it with those who accept me for who I am and having a good time. I guess a lot of it depends on what the particular person's goals are and there is no right or wrong answer really.:happy:

[crusadergirl]

I agree with Sal everybody is different and maybe not everybody is worried about passing for the most part.
For me i may have a femme look but i don't have the voice and the walk of one.
And most are right it don't matter your age are size you can still pass.
If i go out i want to look my best but i'm not going to try to blend in, i don't like the same style that every girl i see out there has. I just go with what i like.

[Paulacder]

This question has ben brought up many times, and here is the way I see it. Passing is all in your mind, if you think you passed then you did. I have ben dressing and going out in public for many years. I also am a member of a C.Ders. support group. It has ben my observations that very few M.to F. C.D.ers could actually pass. If you are out in public and walk by a person or a group of people and they don't stare, laugh, giggle, or point at you, don't think they didn'r recognise you as a guy wearing womens cloths.

[Angela Burke]

There is no way I could ever pass as a woman.
Sure I can put on a skirt and a pair of heels and I know I can look quite presentable in a photograph. But I don't walk or stand like a girl and any attempt by me to mimic female attributes would look frankly rediculous.
Then there's my voice. I have an extemely broad Scottish "rasp" of which I'm very proud but coming out of a womans mouth would seem very strange indeed.
On the occasions that I do go out dressed in public it's always with friends or relations who know all about me.

[Kelsy]

My fantasy rarely meets my reality.

As much as I would love to think that I look so much like a gg that no one would notice, the reality is I do not.

I have to agree with the girls here who equate acceptance with passing.
If you are surounded by people that accept you as You truly are, a transgendered male, than you are free to express your feminine side.

The Key I believe is self acceptance first - learning to love yourself - the confindence you gain will clear the way to living as you want to be!

Kelsy:happy:

[Michelle (Oz)]

I have a very simple approach. Look as good as I can to be pleased with my appearance, wear what I like to wear, enjoy every interaction, expect respect BUT never think I have fooled anyone into thinking that I am a girl. That way I never fear being recognised as a male except in the ladies restrooms. People respect honesty and good humour,and don't challenge confidence through self-acceptance.

Michelle (Oz)

[Eugenie]

Hi Patricia,

I think that your post is excellent and I aggree with most of what you say here. Just one comment about this:

As males get older facial features become harder.
Yes indeed that's true but it is also true of many ageing women... In some cases their faces become somewhat more masculine... OK that doesn't make us look more feminine but it may help us going more unnoticed in the streets...

“You can pass with some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot pass with all of the people all of the time.”
I love it... :heehee:
Ifind that it is enough to "pass" from a reasonable distance... For that being moderately made up and dressed appropriately according to age, size and ciscumstances plays a fundamental role.

:hugs:
Eugenie

[DemonicDaughter]

I've been around CDers most of my life and can honestly say, those that "passed" as being female had an attitude that made other people feel that it wasn't how they looked but how they acted. Confidence and acceptance of yourself is the "key" to anyone saying anything about or to you. It isn't how you dress, its how you carry yourself.

[Chari]

Who can really say what is "passing" and to what degree? We are all at many different CD levels and as varied as those levels and individuals are, we all have to find our comfort zone to enjoy what we are wearing, doing, and living. For me, a line from a 50's song says it all "you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself".


It's my attitude and I'll use it 'til I get another one, Chari

[Victoria Anne]

NO we cannot pass , let me tell you why ; with rare exception no man will pass completely.

1) our shoulders are to broad
2)our facial stucture to hard
3)our torso is to long
4)legs to short
5)feet to big
6)hands to large
this is just to name a few things that go against us.

Can we be accepted ? absolutely we can and after this is all about being who we are wheather it is in drab or in femme , we are who we are and so we should be accepted for that alone. We should do our best when we go out if for no other reason than to try and keep a good face ( no pun intended then again maybe so ) to the public .
When we are out and about people will see not only the effort we have put into our appearance but also the way we carry ourselves and when we look good it shows in our attitude. Keep a friendly smile on and present well , and look evry bit the knock out you can and you will be accepted.
For myself I do my best evry time I go out and have never had a bad experience yet. Confidence in one own abilities and comfort with ourselves also makes a big difference and I am babbling so I will shut up . Just go out and have fun.

[PatriciaT]

Sez who? :rasp:

Twice in the last week, I flew wearing a long skirt, tights, a womens waist-length jacket, and a top in which the bulges of my forms were moderately visible (outbound) or quite visible (return.) No makeup, no wig (and so no ID slash "disguise" concerns). Male face, male hair, women's clothes -- and not even a hint of a problem. The people in the airport paid little or no more attention to me than they would have if I were in pure male clothes -- even when I went to the male washroom wearing my skirts. (The one time I noticed anyone paying attention to me was when I was having trouble controlling everything I had to carry, and had to bend down to pick something up {in my skirt, recall} -- and even then it was just the normal sort of polite attention that anyone might get from a random stranger concerned about whether you are about to have a spill.)

So if I can fly, obviously transgendered, in Canada, and the staff and customers don't mind, then why should I "at least try to pass" ?

What's the name of the game here? To wear what one wants and be comfortable doing so? Or to be "imitation women"?

Did I look like an "ugly man in a dress"? Even taking into account that it was a skirt rather than a dress that I had, the answer was clearly "NO": I wore my femme clothes naturally and with pride and a smile. People who saw me very likely observed that I was happy, not that I was "weird".

Hi

Lots of great postings but I feel I have to reply to this one due to the ramifications.
First of all, I too went through a period like you, dressed en femme but with no wig or makeup so looked very much like a male en femme. I also got the same reaction as you did. People are busy and either didn't pay much attention or care.
However, I gave up on this simply because I felt the need to express my feminine aspect and didn't feel completely feminine like this or completely comfortable. I therefore went over to a more complete form of CD, totally en femme. I didn't do this to imitate women, but as a means of expressing that feminine aspect inside of me. That's the name of the game for most CDs. I did get a slightly better reaction en femme but frankly felt that even when people read me, they really didn't care or mind.
What I want to point out is what others have said, if you go out with confidence, either half way as some do or all the way as most do, you should have very few problems.
The reason that I noted it was a good idea to at least try to pass is that should help give the CD more confidence, and perhaps pay closer attention to getting the attire, makeup etc, right. If a CD looks good, and feminine, and not clownish or like a "tart" I believe the word is, acceptance is achievable. That's also the name lf the game, being accpeted as you are, a male en femme. How you do it is up to you.

Anyway, your comments are valuable as they can pertain equally to both the androgynous look or the en femme look.

Best.

Patricia


NO we cannot pass , let me tell you why ; with rare exception no man will pass completely.

1) our shoulders are to broad
2)our facial stucture to hard
3)our torso is to long
4)legs to short
5)feet to big
6)hands to large
this is just to name a few things that go against us.

Can we be accepted ? absolutely we can and after this is all about being who we are wheather it is in drab or in femme , we are who we are and so we should be accepted for that alone. We should do our best when we go out if for no other reason than to try and keep a good face ( no pun intended then again maybe so ) to the public .
When we are out and about people will see not only the effort we have put into our appearance but also the way we carry ourselves and when we look good it shows in our attitude. Keep a friendly smile on and present well , and look evry bit the knock out you can and you will be accepted.
For myself I do my best evry time I go out and have never had a bad experience yet. Confidence in one own abilities and comfort with ourselves also makes a big difference and I am babbling so I will shut up . Just go out and have fun.


Hi Victoria Anne,

Great posting! I'm with you all the way.

Patricia


NO we cannot pass , let me tell you why ; with rare exception no man will pass completely.

1) our shoulders are to broad
2)our facial stucture to hard
3)our torso is to long
4)legs to short
5)feet to big
6)hands to large
this is just to name a few things that go against us.

Can we be accepted ? absolutely we can and after this is all about being who we are wheather it is in drab or in femme , we are who we are and so we should be accepted for that alone. We should do our best when we go out if for no other reason than to try and keep a good face ( no pun intended then again maybe so ) to the public .
When we are out and about people will see not only the effort we have put into our appearance but also the way we carry ourselves and when we look good it shows in our attitude. Keep a friendly smile on and present well , and look evry bit the knock out you can and you will be accepted.
For myself I do my best evry time I go out and have never had a bad experience yet. Confidence in one own abilities and comfort with ourselves also makes a big difference and I am babbling so I will shut up . Just go out and have fun.


Hi Victoria Anne,

Great posting! I'm with you all the way except for the babbling part.This is most certainly not babbling but a frank and honest look at the situation.

Right on!


Patricia

[JoAnnDallas]

so far I have not had any problem going out dressed. I know I don't pass all the time, but it seems that most people will do not take notice of you most of the time. Example, walk thru a mall then afterwards try and remember all the GG's you saw. I bet you remember some but most you will not.
I know some have made me and as long as no one makes a fuss while I am around, don't care what they say after I am gone, then I am happy. I do have a few things going for me. Height, weight,dress and shoe size are in the woman range. I don't have an adam's apple, I don't over dress or over due my makeup. My wig supports my face. So factoring in all these items, I pass 80% of the time. I have notice some that get the wide eye look and know they have made me, but almost everytime they don't say anything and treat me with respect.
Funny I had this one GG ask me if I was a CDer. Her atitude was a little stern. I lied to her and said NO, I am a TS. Her atitude quickly changed and the rest of the encounter I was treated like any other GG. I suspect that a MtF TS gets more respect from a GG than a CD does. I guess because a pre-op TS is almost a woman and a Post-op TS is a woman.

[RobertaFermina]

Patricia,

From your initial posting you have shown by all the factors and psychological uncertainties that I could really go nuts trying to evaluate and confirm when and whether I am passing.

Women might do the same thing with regard to being accepted as "desirable" or "sexy" or "dignified".

Pick any adjective or status and I could go nuts trying to determine who satisfies it and in which cases of what,where,when, and whatsup?

I write it down to insecurity, if I continue to worry about my appearance, after taking all reasonable steps to portray and embody my own femininity/womanliness/girliness/whateverness.

Now, I think it is easier to overcome insecurity than it is to achieve a perfect passing appearance, apparel, voice and persona. With self-acceptance, I get that one intangible, presence and radiance, that trumps all other virtues, and overcomes most failings.

:hugs:

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Genifer Teal]

NO we cannot pass , let me tell you why ; with rare exception no man will pass completely.

1) our shoulders are to broad
2)our facial stucture to hard
3)our torso is to long
4)legs to short
5)feet to big
6)hands to large
this is just to name a few things that go against us.




Don't be too defeatist about this. Some things can be changed and others can be hidden. I see you point but you will never win a race you don't think you can win. That is why attitude is SOOOOO important. A positive attitude is contagous. It can make up for many things you lack.

Something else to think about. Another word to consider instead of pass is fool. You may just manage to fool a few people on occasion.

Gen

[Nicki B]

But if you redefine passing slightly--to mean that they can see you are presenting as female and should be treated with respect as a woman, passing is within the reach of most of us.


I have to agree with the girls here who equate acceptance with passing.

Do you really think muddying the water by using the same term for different meanings helps..? Why not just aim for acceptance? :strugglin


and here is the way I see it. Passing is all in your mind, if you think you passed then you did.

I think that's actually the reverse - you only pass, by definition, if other people assume you were born female. Surely a better question is how can I make my attitude that I can accept myself and then be accepted by others?

You will find others do accept you (they may not understand, but they do accept) - but that doesn't help, if you can't accept yourself?

[Nicole Erin]

Do we really pass?
Thing is, it depends on how much contact we have with someone.
As we walk by and people see us, they probably would just see a woman in a lot of cases and not think or look twice.

Plus, with the wide range of shapes and sizes of women, people might think "That is a CD" but they probably won't know for sure. And as long as we are not acting nervous or making a scene of any sort, who is going to question it? Well maybe some really immature people but no one really cares what they think.

[jennifer41356]

I pass when it is second and long and I have a good wide receiver, otherwise I run the ball:D:D:D:D:D:D

just kiddin, I agree with the other folks whos say its all in how one presents themselves...I have seen very manly looking women , but they are women. If you go out and act like you belong in the clothes you are wearing and the makeup you have on, chances are you will treated like a lady or in most cases , totally ignored:2c::love:

[PatriciaT]

Patricia,

From your initial posting you have shown by all the factors and psychological uncertainties that I could really go nuts trying to evaluate and confirm when and whether I am passing.

Women might do the same thing with regard to being accepted as "desirable" or "sexy" or "dignified".

Pick any adjective or status and I could go nuts trying to determine who satisfies it and in which cases of what,where,when, and whatsup?

I write it down to insecurity, if I continue to worry about my appearance, after taking all reasonable steps to portray and embody my own femininity/womanliness/girliness/whateverness.

Now, I think it is easier to overcome insecurity than it is to achieve a perfect passing appearance, apparel, voice and persona. With self-acceptance, I get that one intangible, presence and radiance, that trumps all other virtues, and overcomes most failings.

:hugs:

:rose: Roberta :rose:

Right Roberta, you got my point. Too many things to worry about so why bother? Develop confidence and the proper attitude and you're all set.
Another person got it right saying she always passed....to herself. Gee, I love that kind of talk.

Best,

Patricia
:clap:

[Nicki B]

Patricia aren't you talking about 'passing' when you really mean 'acceptance'?

It gets confusing when people use the same word, for different meanings.. :strugglin

[zann]

The point that much of passing is really acceptance is excellent. An other part is the fact that most of the time people do not look at each other closely. Most often you need to be far outside the norm to get a close look. Ann

[Laurelanne]

I agree who really knows... but I must say last Sunday on a short walk to the store in a shorter skirt I got honked and yelled at ...so who cares..I took the test..hey MOM I Passed!