Crossdressing & Cliques

[sandra-leigh]

Copied from "Would you have chosen this" thread so that the 'clique' topic can be discussed without sidetracking that one.



But we know it is not really like that. It is not "just" clothes, how we dress is very, very important to us. I don't know why and I haven't seen any one of us come up with any one size fits all answer. Probably because there isn't one.


After reading a discussion this morning in a local CD mailing list, I was reminded of group dynamics, especially in young people, in which the manner of one's dress becomes a very important part of one's identity as a member of a group.

For example see the below extract of a review of Tina Fey's "Mean Girls" movie. It discusses high school cliques, but the same peer pressure is at operating in (for example) punk and goth and preppies (do those still exist?), and in lesbian communities (for example) as "femme" vs "butch".

(Errors in the below are so in the original.)



Their everywhere in society. The clique. That little group or special person that some people always want to be aligned to or been seen with. Out in the larger world the clique is weakened because it has had to diversify, to mutate like a virus. But at high school the clique can be a very powerful influence on everyone it comes in contact with. It's probably true to say that being in a clique at high school has made a few people very happy and a lot of people very unhappy. The most powerful clique at high school is the all girl clique. It's presence can best be described as a dark force whose ripple effect causes a warp in the universe just as it did in "Star Wars". Like a bee colony, the all girl clique has at it's head, a Queen Bee. A strong all powerful girl who holds sway over her followers. Generally a bit of a bitch, the Queen Bee is a dangerous manipulative young thing who surrounds herself with a few select servants and a pathetic little group of worker bees. By always travelling in a group, the clique appears strong and elite. This creates an illusion like a bright light on a dark night around which moths gather. In the case of the clique, the powerful signal they exhude is a message of seperatism, elitism, of being something very special, even being loved. This combines into a powerful force field which keeps everyone else out of their little world. Unless you're lucky enough to be invited in. Buzzing around the clique, bouncing off the shield, like little sperms trying to penetrate an egg, are the wannabes. And there's always plenty of them. The truth about the vast majority of these high school all girl cliques is that they are destructive. They foster feelings of insecurity, distrust, seperatism and the worse sympton of all. People in cliques always think they are better than every one else.


(and other interesting comments.)


cliques "...They foster feelings of insecurity, distrust, seperatism and the worse sympton of all. People in cliques always think they are better than every one else."

Tess, it's a little off topic,but a very interesting thing to think about. Are we a clique? Do we think ourselves superior for having a dual view on the world, or a more liberated sex-life, or great legs?

I'd like to follow this in another thread, if you'd care to put it up.

deja

[Nicole Erin]

Well within the CD community there sometimes are cliques.
I think most of us stick together but I have actually run into CD cliques.

[deja true]

I asked Tess to start this thread, 'cos I wanted to hear others' opinion. Not just about there being cliques within the CD community. We know there are. It's almost inevitable, given the 'young girl' mindset that pervades so many posts. The flaming beauties, the geeks, the shy ones... Don't deny it. We've had this conversation before.

But what I want to know is, do we CD's as whole (at least the group represented by this site) think that we are in any way superior to other groups of males?

I have to regretfully admit that I personally think myself a little better than some. This whole thing about (possibly) being able to share in the perceptions of females, about the quest to become overall more sensitive to the feelings of others, makes me think I have somehow become a better person than those who don't attempt to improve themselves every day, that don't yearn to learn something new every day (about any subject, not just lip color shades).

I don't look down on anyone, we're all the Creator's children. It's just that I think that despite the early guilt and shame that is so often associated with our lifestyle, somehow we have, in large part, actually benefitted from this 'affliction'. And do we hold that against the chauvinists, the misogynists, the gay bashers, the racists that we come into contact with every day? Are we the "mean girls"?

I don't express myself well in this post. I fear I haven't gotten across what I really mean, but can't find the words just now. Don't beat me up too bad.

respect & love

deja

[Valeria]

For example see the below extract of a review of Tina Fey's "Mean Girls" movie. It discusses high school cliques, but the same peer pressure is at operating in (for example) punk and goth and preppies (do those still exist?), and in lesbian communities (for example) as "femme" vs "butch".
Lesbians are not immune to "cliques", but femme and butch are NOT good examples of a clique in this sense. Being femme (or butch) is a combination of identity and gender expression - it's not a fashion statement or fad. Also, femmes and butches tend to get along fabulously - they date a lot, and it's common to find them hanging out together. The dynamics of being femme are also nothing like being a member of a high school clique.

I'm not completely sold on punk or goth being compared to high school cliques either, but I'm not goth so I can't speak to that directly. I am a queer femme, and I have lots of femme and butch friends, so I can speak to that point.

[Tammygirl]

Ladies,
I have to admit,:sad: that I sometime think of myself as better then other
here.
I have been dressing for a very many years now. I have been going out in public almost since day one! Yes, I have been read, made fun of, ect, mostly when I was first starting out or by people who are nieve and worse! That didn't stop me After some pratice with makeup, clothing, ect, ect! I got better and better on the way I present myself as a woman as a person as a human!
I have traveled to Flowen to DC, Atlantic city and to Las Vegas. Been on a cruise to the carabeanen, and the bahamas. Traveled all over Florida where I live and up and down I 95. All while dressed as a woman!:D Actting as a Lady. Being a lady, and being treated as a lady!
Unless, I gave my ID, which has my male name and pictrue on it, has anyone know I wasn't anyone or thing then a woman. Alittle over dressed, but a woman none the less! Before 9/11 Even Customs in the Islands gave me few problems! They were profestional, polite, and even called me mam! I gotten stoped by the police once or twice and they great too!
Most people don't even bat an eye of endifference to who I am. They are going about there business, as I go about mine!
I dress age apropreate and very conserative. My makeup is done as a woman of my age would wear! I tend to dress alittle upper class. For examlpe: I wear a nice dress heel and hoes to the mall. Where maybe most women would dress alittle down, if you know what I mean!
I enjoy myself! Have great fun! I have even had sex with men! Some knew! Some did not!
Anyway, I have seen some pics of other on this site! Some look better then others. Some who don't look good go out all the time! Other look great and don't go out!
I look pretty good:D. and go out all the time and pass! Other look even better and go out too. Still others look great and don't!
I'm I so much better then you? I had my fears! My misgivings! I built up the "Will Power" And never looked Back. Why Can't you? I don't understand!
You want too and don't! I in a minarity here let's make it a Magarity. Sorry can't spell either!
Love all of you!:love:

[Kate Simmons]

Actually Deja, it's not who we are so much or the "gift" of insight we have, it's how we utilize that gift that makes the difference. The analogy I use is Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's creation the X-Men. Created in 1963 the idea was that Profesor Xavier(a powerful mutant himself) created a special school to seek out and locate youngsters specially gifted with mutant abilities(caused by radiation) to use those abilities for the betterment of mankind. They were being trained to fight Magneto and his band of evil mutants whose agenda was to subjugate and rule over mankind. Also the concept was to show that even though one was "different" and possibly "better" than the average person because of the radiation induced abilities which could be seen as somewhat of a "disability" when trying to fit into society, the point was shown that true human spirit will win over every time despite the seeming odds against us. As mutants they were hated and feared by Homo Sapiens, the very ones they were trying to help.

We face no less of a challenge. We can feel that we are better than the "lesser" mortals who don't have our understanding or we can use that understanding for the betterment of all and show in the process that we are really no "different" than anyone else when it comes to feelings and living life. For whatever reason we've been given this special gift. No one is telling us how to use it. How we use it, however, will determine who we really are inside and what we are really made of.:)

[deja true]

And mom told me I'd never get anything from reading those stupid comic books.

Thanks, Sal, I still feel guilty, but, your'e right, it's how we use the power.

Shazaaam!

deja

[SweetCaroline]

If anyone knows me, they would know, if there is one thing I despise, it's cliques.

This also applies to exclusive clubs, clubs where you have to pay to be a member, clubs where you have to be invited to join, etc. I will have nothing to do with them.

I feel you should not have to pay good money or have connections or to just be yourself. Cause most of us who go out are going out just to express themselves. No Fee required. It's FREE!

My group is free. 100%. And no one has ever been, or ever will be, snubbed.

[MJ]

well the sad truth is yes there are cliques within the CD community. there should not be but they exist . thats why i love this site because we support as much as we can over the Internet . there is no thin hot t-girl club or passable club we are in this together we share a love of an unusual hobby we are here to help with advice , not cliques .

because you dress are you better that "a real man " define a real man ? .. thats another thread i guess .

[Nicole Erin]

The sad thing about the private [invitation only] CD clubs is that a lot of them aren't really any hotter than any other CD.

I think tho that very few CD's are in cliques. For the ones that are, heck with them, let them have their little cliques.

I don't really hate cliques, I just think they could probably do well to get over themselves.

I was once at this gathering for CD's where it seemed quite cliquish, I was thinking "Well this was certainly worth getting dolled up for" and haven't been back since.

Soon after I found another group who are probably the most welcoming group there is.

Not all CD clubs or groups are cliques. Some of them will welcome you with open arms and treat you like a long time friend.

[docrobbysherry]

I wonder if there isn't such a big difference between TS and purely CD individuals, that they have very little in common?

Here's what I mean:
CDs like me, dress in secret and get sexual satisfaction from it. It's kind of like an exciting hobby for me/us.

While for TS individuals, dressing can mean a whole life style change. Often involving difficult decisions that can lead to heartbreaking results. And possibly without the sexual benefits.

It would seem that non-TS CDs mite have little in common with TS's other than dressing. Or, using Salandra's analogy of super powers. If TS individuals have the power to see thru steel, I couldn't see thru a sheet of tiolet paper!

If I was a TS going thru the difficult process of trying to pass and come out family and friends, I mite resent the flip comments of a closet, hobby CD. Comments I'm afraid I've been guilty of making.

This not may or may not cause "cliques" per se, but it mite be a wide dividing line between TS's and non-TS CDs?

[Patrice]

On the question if we, as CDs, feel we are better than other folk - Its not that I think Im 'more' than others, its that Ive always (even before CDing) considered those with inherently closed minds 'less' than human.

[Niya W]

You know the transexuals I hang out ave no problems with other CD's. I have no problem with CD's. Hell most of the CD's I know like to have fun and let loose. I dont think I would ever associate with another TS that had a problem with CD's


I wonder if there isn't such a big difference between TS and purely CD individuals, that they have very little in common?

Here's what I mean:
CDs like me, dress in secret and get sexual satisfaction from it. It's kind of like an exciting hobby for me/us.

While for TS individuals, dressing can mean a whole life style change. Often involving difficult decisions that can lead to heartbreaking results. And possibly without the sexual benefits.

It would seem that non-TS CDs mite have little in common with TS's other than dressing. Or, using Salandra's analogy of super powers. If TS individuals have the power to see thru steel, I couldn't see thru a sheet of tiolet paper!

If I was a TS going thru the difficult process of trying to pass and come out family and friends, I mite resent the flip comments of a closet, hobby CD. Comments I'm afraid I've been guilty of making.

This not may or may not cause "cliques" per se, but it mite be a wide dividing line between TS's and non-TS CDs?

[karynspanties]

Just go to GiGi's in Detroit on a saturday night. You will definatley see cliques.
Unfortunate, I thought I left that crap back in high school.:thumbsdn:

[Sonia Kiss]

...

But what I want to know is, do we CD's as whole (at least the group represented by this site) think that we are in any way superior to other groups of males? ...

Hello Deja,

I think we are not a clique. The common concept of a clique is a much smaller group of people, closely interacting, cohesive, tending toward uniformity and agreement, and of course, exclusive. I don't think that fits us very well.

Superior though?


Gurls rule,
Boys drool!

:) Now, why does that make us smile? For the irony--because anyone or any group that truly believes they are "better" than another is in serious risk of bigotry themselves.

I do think we have many benefits from our uncommon perspective as crossdressers, and from wonderous transgender journeys. But really, this is true of any accumulated perspectives and life experiences. Travel, learn a language, change your diet. Huge benefits in any of those.

Very special and valuable are experiences that teach us to recognize and understand prejudice. I grew up in a very insular white suburban middle class environment which unfortunately delivered me to adulthood with little concept of prejudice. Wow did I have some growing up to do when I stepped out into the real world. I've suffered a number of painful lessons on this since, but, I think I've benefited. ;)

Sonia

[SherriePall]

I don't believe that I, as a CDer, am superior to others. I may feel special because I am a CDer, but not superior or better. Are there cliques in our world? Probably, but on this forum it doesn't appear to be (or it's not readily apparent to me). Out in the real world, I can imagine there are because each of us is coming from a different place and moving on towards a different place. That makes us more comfortable with those who most nearly approximate our journey.

[Samantha43]

I used to hate cliques when I was in school because of their superior attitude, but I got over that years ago. They were just a group of insecure people that hung out together.

Are there cliques in crossdressing? I'm sure there are. I'm in the closet, so cliques really don't matter to me. I don't really notice any on this forum. It seems to be a great bunch of girls that help each other out every chance they get.

As far as Deja's comment on the original forum about great legs...Yeah, I guess I could be a part of that clique!

[Valeria]

You know the transexuals I hang out ave no problems with other CD's. I have no problem with CD's. Hell most of the CD's I know like to have fun and let loose. I dont think I would ever associate with another TS that had a problem with CD's
Most of the transsexual people I know would object to the phrasing "other CD's", since most trans people don't crossdress (they wear gender-normative clothing). If you know trans women that have been full-time for years and who have built an entire life as a woman who consider themselves crossdressers, then you know a very different group of people than me.

This doesn't mean that TSs have "problems" with CDs, but I think very few of us consider ourselves to be a member of that particular demographic. Most of us never did (it is a myth that most or all TS women start out as hard core crossdressers). Clothing really isn't that big a deal to me - I just wear whatever is comfortable and looks good. I attach no special meaning to my clothing.

Put another way, my gender identity is female, my life is that of a woman, my anatomy is female, even my birth certificate says I'm female. What exactly is it that makes you think of me as a "cross" dresser? I'm really curious, because I see that concept expressed more frequently here than pretty much anywhere else. Until I joined this forum (to provide support in the TS section), it never even occurred to me that many crossdressers considered trans women to be just a different type of crossdresser.

[Kate Simmons]

Self concept and self identification are the important things in my opinion and the best thing to do is to accept averyone for who they are. I,personally, have no use for cliques, hierarches and the like as I believe that they are counterproductive to the community overall. We get hung up too much on semantics and meanings sometimes and we will never make any real progress until we are able to put it to the side. Actions speak louder than words in any case and this is what is seen by those who look on. It's pretty plain to me. United we stand, divided we fall regardless of who or what we are.

[charlie]

I wonder if there isn't such a big difference between TS and purely CD individuals, that they have very little in common?

Here's what I mean:
CDs like me, dress in secret and get sexual satisfaction from it. It's kind of like an exciting hobby for me/us.

While for TS individuals, dressing can mean a whole life style change. Often involving difficult decisions that can lead to heartbreaking results. And possibly without the sexual benefits.

It would seem that non-TS CDs mite have little in common with TS's other than dressing. Or, using Salandra's analogy of super powers. If TS individuals have the power to see thru steel, I couldn't see thru a sheet of tiolet paper!

If I was a TS going thru the difficult process of trying to pass and come out family and friends, I mite resent the flip comments of a closet, hobby CD. Comments I'm afraid I've been guilty of making.

This not may or may not cause "cliques" per se, but it mite be a wide dividing line between TS's and non-TS CDs?

I believe Sherry is on to something here. When I go out to a GBTG club and talk and join in with the girls I am quickly read by them as being different in approach then they are. I am not fishing for men, am not taking hormones, not getting a boob job, am not interested in transforming. In fact I'm interested in women (including them). That sets me apart from them, and while they are friendly and very supportive of me, I am not one of the clique.

[Valeria]

I believe Sherry is on to something here. When I go out to a GBTG club and talk and join in with the girls I am quickly read by them as being different in approach then they are. I am not fishing for men, am not taking hormones, not getting a boob job, am not interested in transforming. In fact I'm interested in women (including them). That sets me apart from them, and while they are friendly and very supportive of me, I am not one of the clique.
Ahem.

I'm lesbian, as are about a third of all trans women (with many others being bisexual). Also, I haven't had breast augmentation surgery and I doubt I ever will - I'm content with smallish natural breasts. I'm sure that there are things that set you apart, but sexual orientation or having breast surgery aren't really the difference.

Oh, and being TS isn't a "clique". I don't actually hang out with any trans women in daily life, just women - some gay, some bi, some straight.

[sandra-leigh]

If anyone knows me, they would know, if there is one thing I despise, it's cliques.

This also applies to exclusive clubs, clubs where you have to pay to be a member, clubs where you have to be invited to join, etc. I will have nothing to do with them.


Our local club has a yearly membership fee; I haven't noticed anyone complaining, but then I'm not in the chain of command that I would necessarily have heard if someone did.

The club is non-profit, and the membership fee is used to provide member services, such as the printing of the monthly newsletter (about $80 per month); legal fees (e.g., corporate registration), stamps for official correspondence, subscriptions and purchases for the lending library, banking fees, purchase of the monthly door prize, ISP server cost for the web site, printing certificates of merit handed out to members for special thanks or on special occasions, and so on. No club members are paid for their work (just their cash expenses) -- no honoraria, no directors fees; all of the work is done by volunteers (including design and maintenance of the web site).

Now I suppose we could skip all the discretionary purchases (e.g., not create a printed newsletter, not have a dedicated web site and put up with the censorship and file limits of the ad-ware web sites like yahoo), but there are still unavoidable legal and banking fees unless the organization does not incorporate (leaving the club executive open to unlimited personal liability if anything goes wrong such as someone falling down while trying to walk in high heels.) Someone could choose to donate those costs out of their own pocket for the sake of keeping the club free for everyone else, but then the club would essentially be property of that donor rather than being an independent entity able to survive the departure or burnout of the one donor.


I do not see anything morally outrageous about distributing modest costs of running a club amongst those who benefit from it.

For point of comparison, the yearly fee for our local club is $30, and attendees are asked to pay $3 per meeting attended, which goes to pay for refreshments and costs associated with use of the bar we meet at.