At Least Make The Effort**

[Vicky_Scot]

While away for my Tranny weekend I visited a few clubs and bars.

In the clubs I came across other girls. Most were very nicely dressed and looked good......here is where the claws come out, Vicky the bitch is rearing her head for the first time...............BUT!!!!!!

In one particular club, two girls and I use the word loosely.....very looslely..............came in and honestly they made myself and the other ladies in my company cringe. I could go into detail about them but that still would not put over how bad they presented themselve.........you will just have to take my word for it.

I hope I do not offend anyone but saying they were just a Man in frock is being very kind indeed.

It got me thinking.

From afar I may pass but close up others would have to be the judge of that......... But if not and that the case was that I was read a mile away, the one thing I would hope that people who I encountered said was yes that's a guy but at least she made the effort to look good.

That's all I can ask for.

So to people out there "passing" is not the be all and end all, if you make the effort and look good, that counts for a lot.

Sorry for the rant...........I feel better now.

Xx Vicky xX

[Ashley in Virginia]

If they were happy with it, what does it matter?

[Michelle Hart]

As many here know I go to the village to unwind every few weeks. There is this "girl" who is also there a lot. The problem is this person ALWAYS wears the exact same thing. In all the years I have been going to this club, I have never seen her wear anything but this worn out red dress with a ratty blonde wig, with no makeup ever.

Ok so some people are "happy or satisfied" with this but when others make comments to me about it, I'ts pretty embarrasing. I get associated with this person who is always falling down drunk stumbling around in a ratty old dress.

Girls THAT IS NOT FAIR.

I look great, live fultime, and have spent a small fortune on my wardrobe yet all the work I put into my look is tarnished by the deeds of a few. I know life is'nt fair but when people out there like this "girl" make my life more difficult I'm not a fan of ......."I'm just expressing myself"

[Kate Simmons]

Not sure what you are trying to say here Hon. Perhaps those are their best efforts. How you ever spoken to them about it? They may appreciate some helpful suggestions.:)

[DemonicDaughter]

Not sure what you are trying to say here Hon. Perhaps those are their best efforts. How you ever spoken to them about it? They may appreciate some helpful suggestions.:)

I agree! Maybe they are new at it or don't have a forum to go to for help. Maybe you should write down the web address for the forums and give it to them saying how supportive it is and how much its helped you. :)

[Michelle Hart]

What I am saying is most if not all of us put an incredible amount of EFFORT into LOOKING like a woman.

Each of us has our own standards as to what a woman SHOULD look like, yet just putting a dress that fits poorly and a wig is not "effort".

Reading a book or two about makeup, learning to walk in heels, doing your best to mimic feminine movment and posture is effort. Acting like a female would in a public place, trying to speak in a feminine sound and style is effort. Doing things that women do and learning HOW to be ladylike is effort.

Hormones and surgeries, legal hurdles and buying more than one outfit is effort. Getting your nails done or at the very least painting them is effort.

Throwing on a tattered dress and a cheap wig is not effort.

I'm not trying to be rude or disresectful in any way, but if your going to play shouldn't you at least try to learn the rules of the game?

[Cai]

What if that's how she wants to look? I'd probably pass better as a guy if I wore ratty t-shirts and baggy cargo pants - but I'm happier with my look in polos and jeans.

The point is - everyone has a right to wear what they want. That includes you working to look ladylike, that includes me in polo shirts, that includes her in her red dress.

[Michelle Hart]

I agree! Maybe they are new at it or don't have a forum to go to for help. Maybe you should write down the web address for the forums and give it to them saying how supportive it is and how much its helped you. :)



As many here know I go to the village to unwind every few weeks. There is this "girl" who is also there a lot. The problem is this person ALWAYS wears the exact same thing. In all the years I have been going to this club, I have never seen her wear anything but this worn out red dress with a ratty blonde wig, with no makeup ever.


I've been going there since 1997. I know the owner and ALL the staff, many whom are very close freinds. Plus it has an awsome atmophere.

I've spoken to her but "she" is usually so drunk it is a complete waste of time.

[Michelle Hart]

What if that's how she wants to look? I'd probably pass better as a guy if I wore ratty t-shirts and baggy cargo pants - but I'm happier with my look in polos and jeans.

The point is - everyone has a right to wear what they want. That includes you working to look ladylike, that includes me in polo shirts, that includes her in her red dress.

So you wear the SAME thing every day? Do you ever iron them?

It's not about WHAT she has on, the topic was people who put NO effort into their apearance.

If you want to look like a slacker thats fine. Not meant as an insult just a statement.

The "J Crew" look can actually be pretty chic, if you do it right. I've seen boys and girls who look incredible in that style. Even "Heroin Chic" can look apealing on some people. Personally I'm not a fan but it can look good.

[Maria2004]

I make a lot of effort and technically passable but get read anyway and don't care, don't go to bars when I go out. I met a couple once at a Tri-Ess meeting, sitting quietly hand in hand, the CD was wearing a simple skirt and top, no wig or make up, I think that was all she had, surrounded by all these maxed out CDs ready for our annual xmas party. So I struck up a conversation. It soon became evident that she was happy to at least wear what she did have and be with us, sadly she couldn't come to the party(for her own personal reasons). I wish she could have and I would have gone anywhere in Atlanta with her, she was a sister doing what she could with what she had and enjoying it.

[DemonicDaughter]

In one particular club, two girls and I use the word loosely.....very looslely..............came in and honestly they made myself and the other ladies in my company cringe. I could go into detail about them but that still would not put over how bad they presented themselve.........you will just have to take my word for it.

I was specifically referring to this statement. I believe the "woman" in the red dress is most likely an alcoholic and possibly suffers from depression and thus doesn't care about their appearance. Or has her own issues. Shy of having a psychology degree there is nothing you can do for her. I was merely pointing out that as for the original statement of these "two girls" perhaps they are new and would welcome some sisterly advice. :)

[Michelle Hart]

Sorry DD I thought you were refering to what I had said so my reponse was indirectly for you. With that said it's not WHAT you have on as to how you carry yourself


Maria a CD convention is not the same a walmart.....

If someone want's to act a fool thats fine with me but I don't have to accept it nor condone such behavior. I shouldn't be guilty by association either.

In the general public when people see "a man in a frock" they cringe and the ridicule and assumption begins.

If on the other hand an unusually tall woman who is not as "delicatly" featured as other girls is seen she is largely ignored.

those that have that "I don't care" attitude are the ones that people refer to and judge ALL of us by. In our case a bad apple does spoil the bunch.

Personally I think the "goth" look is pretty cool but some of those kids really do a lot of damage to their freind because of their ATTITUDE not their dark brooding.

The same goes for us, walk around looking for atention and it will find you.

[Carrie f]

I agree people should make the effort, but that's my upbringing. Yours too, it sounds like. Crossdressers are just like everyone else, some people take pride in their appearance and some don't.

Although the lady in the red dress sounds like she may have deeper problems involving addiction, if she's loased all the time.

[Maria2004]

Maria a CD convention is not the same a walmart.....

If someone want's to act a fool thats fine with me but I don't have to accept it nor condone such behavior. I shouldn't be guilty by association either.

In the general public when people see "a man in a frock" they cringe and the ridicule and assumption begins.



The person I was referring to was not acting a fool, and I wouldn't condone it either, but I would have gone to Walmart with her if she wanted to. I don't believe the public cringes at the sight of a man in a frock and there are many members on this forum that can attest to that from personal experience. The person I was talking about was a very lovely soul, dressing as best she could in a skirt and top, because I have the where with all to dress completely feminine somehow makes her less? Not in my book.

[Julie York]

Married man in the closet, daren't tell the wife, can't buy clothes, can't go anywhere, daren't use makeup, hasn't told or shared his secret with anyone in his whole life.

So he keeps one sad red dress and one even sadder motheaten wig in the toolbox of his car. The two things he salvaged one night at a Halloween party.

And once a week he goes out and meets all these lovely adorable friendly people in a club. Though they don't talk to him much so he gets drunk instead.

And then sneaks back home again, hides away his pathetic things and climbs into bed.




(Anyone got a tissue?):cry:

[secretlypsycho]

I have to say, as a group in society who preach "acceptance", some crossdressers are incredibly judgemental! If you want to be free to wear whatever you want to wear, perhaps you should afford others the same courtesy?


I shouldn't be guilty by association either.
This doesn't simply apply to your situation - it is true across all of society.... many women fear men because of the actions of a few... many people look down on teenage mothers because of the few who fit the stereotype... and so on & so on. It may not be fair, but it's just how it is - and you're not going to change it so might as well get used to it imo.

:2c:

[Sonia Kiss]

I also like to see people make the effort, but that's just what I like. The "I" there is just me, I don't speak for everyone, and the "like" there means it is just my preference, not the limit of what I can deal with. I am in the very early stages of starting a real time social group and the following is a quote from material I have posted on my group web site:


Appearance matters sometimes. It shouldn't matter all of the time. Sometimes, some of us, with desperate desire to blend in public, want our trans sisters at our side to look "better" in some way--some way that we feel is the "right" way to look or act....

First of all, it really does matter in a few special cases. If you want to get into a posh night club, for example, you need to dress for it. These clubs explicitly advertise that proper dress is required. If your clothes aren't consistent with the look the club is going for, don't be indignant when you are turned away. In *most* cases though, in public places, in venues open to the general public, proper dress is not an issue, and if you feel uncomfortable standing next to someone, that is your problem, not theirs. Seriously, we're all adults, and we accept the consequences of how we dress. We can dress to blend, dress to impress, dress to express, and sometimes, dress the only way we want to, the only way we can, the only way we know how, in the only clothes we have, or--simply and unapologetically--the way we do. In *most* places, this is allowed. So get over it.

So there's my prepared statement. If you still don't like the way someone looks, you have options. First, you could discriminate. You could talk to the management about keeping this person out of the club, or better yet, fight against any pending legislation that would protect this person from discrimination. Second (reasonably now) say hi to this person. See if you can make friends with them enough to understand why they do what they do.

Sonia

[deja true]

I'm with you Psycho!

That worry of association is exactly what we hear from some new frantic members, before they calm down. It's the teen-age girl worry of not fitting in. What will my friends think? What will my neighbors think?

If the bar owners and other patrons are your friends ,as you say, they don't judge you by the looks or actions of the poor alcoholic 'man in a dress' . We want others to judge us on a case by case basis. The 'man in a dress' is probably being judged as a drunken fool, not as a tranny fool. Don't let it stress you so much. Bad for the forehead lines.

You've tried to help, but been rejected. There's not much you can do, except maybe keep trying if you want to. Either he'll get over it (with somebody's help) or he'll crash and burn. It's beneath you to be upset that his wrinkled dress makes your beautiful, expensive dress look bad.

Sympathy beats disgust any day.

deja

[Vicky_Scot]

Not sure what you are trying to say here Hon. Perhaps those are their best efforts. How you ever spoken to them about it? They may appreciate some helpful suggestions.:)

Believe me they were not the type to try and speak to.

You would have most likely ended up with a punch in the face.

Sorry but IMO there is no excuse for people to go out looking like they did.

Xx Vicky xX

[Tammygirl]

Hello Ladies,
Where I have always maintaned that when out in Public, Dressed, you should always put you best effored froward! However, wearing the samething everytime is a bit much! This not putting your best efford into to your dressing!
I want to pass as a woman! Sometime this is not always done! However, I have always been give the benifit of the dout. That MAYBE a man but, Dam SHE is well dressed! Not TRING to look you best puts a bad light on us who want to Pass! When the rare time I do get read, it's "See those people should stay in the closet!
Love all

[VtVicky]

Julie's post may well be on track. (tongue in cheek or not.)

Or, this kind of behavior, slovenly dress and drunkeness, may indicate a more serious condition. Intrapsychic ambivalence.

Consider the following: Someone strugging with crossdressing and homosexuality may well move in the direction of crossdressing in public. Only, to insure he isn't attractive enough to get hit on, (thereby not having to step over the line and face his questionable sexual identity.) he presents himself as a mess. To help him get this far he needs a lot of alcohol.

If he actually put the effort into looking half way decent, it would be harder for him to deny what he is afraid of.

Someone who is not well educated in the varieties of crossdressers, may well be panicky unnecessarily. If he, in fact, is exclusively heterosexual, but does not know what a significant percentage of us are also exclusively straight, he may be worried about what his interest in CDing means about his sexual identity. And, by dressing as a mess, he insures no one approaches him expecting him to be gay.

I think the suggestion to give him a note with the URL of this forum is a very good idea.

[Kate Simmons]

Basically, I have no control over what others do, nor do I want to. It's enough of a job managing myself. In any case, regardless of how others may dress or look, my self confidence is not rattled. I have my own comfort level and know who I am, regardless of what others may think and that includes anything in connection with other CDs.:)

[RobertaFermina]

I have seen girls much like the Red Dressed one you have described.

I have gotten to know one in particular. Behind the (garish and almost unvaried) dress and her dressing is a person with great difficulties fitting in, with several personal disabilities and challenges, and in lucid moments, all the beauty and inspiration that humanity can provide.

I could stand back and dissociate myself from such girls, or do what I would want done for me, approach, befriend, understand.

There are limits, though. I understand being standoffish when a gal is stumbling drunk. I pick my moments, and I have been rewarded.

Now when I see her, I know her story, I know I can't "fix" her, and I know, in her way, she is striving.

If someone approaches me and impugns me and her in the same breath, I know to stand up for myself, and how to tell the so-and-so not to judge a book by its cover.


:rose: Roberta :rose:

[TSchapes]

I remember going to a "Paradise Club" meeting in Cleveland OH. There was a girl there that was poorly dressed. I talked to her and found out she was disabled and lived in the projects. She was just glad she could afford the annual club fee. When she had come through the door at the hall they had rented, she was greeted, kissed and hugged. I don't recall any shunning going on.

By all means dress as well as you can. But, these are your standards not everyone else's. I wonder where the competition gene lives on the chromosome? The 'X' part or the 'Y' part, hmm...

We are a community, but we are not attached at the hip.

Nothing should reflect badly on us anymore than how we reflect badly on the GG community.

Again, where's the love the understanding, and the willingness to learn?

I'm going to put a bra on and shut down. :fairy3:

Love, Tracy

[Michelle Hart]

I think some clarification is needed. How many of you or us have heard all about how "deviant" we are or how "perverted" or even "sick" we are. Does it make you PROUD to be thought of that way?

Well how did we get thoses labels? Do you know?

Tha ACTIONS OF A FEW!

Everybody here wants to be loved and accepted as we are, thats fine and a good thing. However there are those among us who by THEIR ACTIONS affect how WE are percieved.

Shanaynay is a caracature of how some of us act in public, I've seen it with my own eyes. It's shameful but some people have no self control. As for this "girl" I have spoken of she thinks she is better looking and more classy than anyone. I know a lot about her. It's a long story but suffice to say she is not an alcaholic or anything else. She just does'nt care, period.

She is the type who helped us get called deviants and perverts so it's not "tenage anghst" in my desire to be accepted. I live full time, go to work blah blah blah.

I'm not to happy about being called some "sicko" because she has no self control or puts no EFFORT into her apearance.

I don't know her and have nothing against her but why should I get lumped into the same group. Do you like it when you get called a homo or a sicko? Are you proud to be one? Think about it.

[Sonia Kiss]

Thank you, Roberta. You gave a beautiful example of what is possible just by saying hello.


...
Now when I see her, I know her story, I know I can't "fix" her, and I know, in her way, she is striving.

And, I imagine, when she sees you, she thinks "that person offered to be my friend."

[Tamara Croft]

Well how did we get thoses labels? Do you know?

Tha ACTIONS OF A FEW!Those actions of a few may very well include you Michelle, don't be so quick to judge others when you've dressed like this: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=309421&postcount=1

... and this: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311163&postcount=30

In your first picture, those breast forms are so huge, in your face, quite embarrassing, I wonder how many people have seen that and thought... wow, she gives us such a bad name wearing forms that big.. and your second picture, well, it's not something you'd wear to a restaurant is it?!?

:brolleyes:

[Deborah Jane]

Those actions of a few may very well include you Michelle, don't be so quick to judge others when you've dressed like this: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311163&postcount=30 well, it's not something you'd wear to a restaurant is it?!?

:brolleyes:

WOW!!! I love that outfit!! It,s the sort of thing i,d wear!!:D

[RobertaFermina]

I think some clarification is needed. How many of you or us have heard all about how "deviant" we are or how "perverted" or even "sick" we are. Does it make you PROUD to be thought of that way?

Well how did we get thoses labels? Do you know?

Tha ACTIONS OF A FEW!

{snip}





The way we get that way is two-fold.

1. People project their own discomfort with an individual onto an entire group. We well know that one who screams pervert is quite often in personal agony because they harbor the very tendencies they decry!

2. Other individuals within that group take it personal.


Number 1. is sloppy generalization, and it is not my fault.
Number 2. is exaggerated self-importance or fear run amok, or something equally venal or fearful.

None of is is without blemish, and we are all at risk even if there were no "crude examples" of our lot.

What we are threatened by is the discomfort for individuals with people who are different. The fear is that the discomfort of others with our differences will lead to threats, or worse, acts against us.

By displacing that fear onto the "weak sisters" among us, we are behaving no differently than those who would threaten or harm us.

Want the world to be different ? Be different than the disappointing parts of the world !

By embracing the "weak sisters" and bearing compassion for those who would threaten us, we will begin to recognize that "there but for the grace of god, go I."

I feel quite certain that if we kill and eat our own, we are preparing our collective fate !


:rose: Viva Pogo! :rose:

[TGMarla]

So when you boil this all down to gravy, we're basically making the same argument I might make in guy mode, at a bar, watching a football game while wearing my Bears gear...some guy at another table has Bears gear on, too....and he's acting like a low-rent a-hole redneck boor....so I'm guilty by association. I get that, but I don't know this guy's situation, either. Maybe he's an alcoholic, and always acts this way. But I'm wondering if they think maybe I'm with him or something. We both have the same hat on, or something.

With transgendered people, it's a bit more complicated. Many would consider the whole lot of us to have something of a mental condition to begin with. Throw Julie's hypothetical situation in there, and you wind up with a truly pathetic person who's picking his way through life in an absolutely miserable state.

I really don't feel like the redneck at the next table makes me look bad, though. I think he makes him look bad. I still have my self-respect intact. I've never really been out dressed, but if I were in a bar, I'd be dressed rather nicely, and I'd look as good as I could. But I don't think the trailer park dingy one-dress birds-nest-hair hobo looking tramp at the table next to me makes me look bad. It makes her look bad.

And if Julie's anywhere near the mark on this (hypothetically), then all I can say is, "There but for the grace of God go I." It would be nice in a perfect world where all us "girls" dressed all nice and did our little make-up just right, but there is always a full spectrum of people, from really great to really dismal, in any demographic. And that includes us.

[TSchapes]

Logic Time:

If someone were truly perfect in their portrayal of a women, what is sometimes called a "Gender Illusionist", they could not possibly be thought of as a CD, because they are totally in the zone.

If true, they wouldn't be associated with any of these so-called riff-raft CDs, because they have pulled off the perfect presentation, i.e they are a girl, by all rights.

Now, this perfection is talked about a great deal here, and how hard it is to attain.

So...
Bottom line, is this really about them or about you? Which presentation can you control and which one can't you control?

Look at yourself first.

Tiger Woods says he does not compete against the other players, he competes against the course.

Love, Tracy

[Michelle Hart]

Those actions of a few may very well include you Michelle, don't be so quick to judge others when you've dressed like this: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=309421&postcount=1

... and this: -

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311163&postcount=30

In your first picture, those breast forms are so huge, in your face, quite embarrassing, I wonder how many people have seen that and thought... wow, she gives us such a bad name wearing forms that big.. and your second picture, well, it's not something you'd wear to a restaurant is it?!?

:brolleyes:

Thanks for proving my point Tamera. How long did you look to find those??

Two totally different looks, two totally diferent outfits. I'm sober in both, In my home in both. Now since they are here they can easily be taken completly out of context. Private behavior is COMPLETLY different from public.

No, I don't go out to dinner in THAT corset are you kidding.... Which photo shows me stumbling around slobering on people? My hair and makeup are done in both and those are also several years old. Each is lit horibly and very low resolution as well.

So I guess having a big chest makes me bad example. I'll be sure to let Dolly Parton know she makes women look bad and is a poor example of womanhood. Dolly must be a real sicko for being so well endowed. Your right Tamera, big breasts set a really bad example, especially if you cant see them.


WOW!!! I love that outfit!! It,s the sort of thing i'd wear!!http://www.tamaracroft.co.uk/Smilies/Big%20grin.gif

Thank you, I love it as well. I really dont wear it that often though. Mostly just photos and an occasional special occassion.


I had no idea the standard for behavior was so low. I was always taught to put your best foot forward since first impressions are everlasting as the saying goes.

I'll be sure to adjust my look to the current "En Vouge" style of couch patato slouch....It will sure be nice to not have to iron anything or put any EFFORT into my apearance and when people laugh or shake their head in dispair I'l just say to hell with you I'm just expressing myself. I'm doing nothing and that is all it takes to look good.

Why on earth did I ever think dressing well or TRYING to look good was a worthy goal.........

Sheesh......

[Nicole Erin]

Michelle -
I saw your photos and I don't thing you look all that bad.

I do think us CD's should stick a little tighter together tho ;)

We already have a few GG's in our community giving us enough sh^t.

Some of our sisters are ugly as crap, I admit that, but no reason to hate on them.

If their looks are bad that is one thing but if their personality is at least OK then why not at least be polite to them?

[Kate Simmons]

I don't think anyone is really saying you look bad Michelle, in fact you look good. Of course it's appreciated when we try our best and it makes us feel good as well. We have no control over how others choose to look or what they do however. I, personally, find it fascinating that they have the gonads to be out there to begin with and it is by no means easy as we all know.

I have found out over the years however that while appearance may be important, it's really only one factor in how we come across to people. I could take a lot of time to look like a fashion model but if my personality sucks, so do I and that is what people will remember the most.

If we really want to be ambassadors we have to accept the whole package and that includes how we interact with our own. People watch, people take notice, people don't miss much. People are the most important part of it to me with this whole ball of wax. When the chips are down I can always count on my friends though, no matter who they are or what they look like.:)

[Michelle Hart]

Some of our sisters are ugly as crap, I admit that, but no reason to hate on them.

If their looks are bad that is one thing but if their personality is at least OK then why not at least be polite to them?


Thanks, for that. I try and put a lot of effort into EVERYTHING I do. I know some people just are not that way and I'm ok with it. I'm nice to everybody or at least I try really hard to be. It's not aboud hate it's about some people who just don't care about the image they project.

A little effort goes a long way and it shows. It's the no effort group that I have problems with, regardless of what they do.

[TGMarla]

Why and how are you so judgemental, Michelle? Maybe the guy's got mental issues. What if life wasn't so great for you? Have you ever experienced depression? Have you? It's hard just to get out of bed. You deal with depression, and then get all dolled up just so nobody will notice and no one will talk to you. You fight through all the depression and see how much "effort" you put into just about anything you do. And when it's all done, you get to meander home just to look in the mirror and see that you're still a guy and there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah, life's probably just peaches for this guy.

That's a helluva soap box you two have carted out here.

[RobertaFermina]

Michelle,

I support your choice to vent your annoyance.

It does not harm me, and it seems important for you so I will stand back and "let it be."

I am glad you are here.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

[Tamara Croft]

Thanks for proving my point Tamera. How long did you look to find those??It took me a couple of minutes to find them, and my name is not Tamera, it's TamAra...

Two totally different looks, two totally diferent outfits. I'm sober in both, In my home in both. Now since they are here they can easily be taken completly out of context. Private behavior is COMPLETLY different from public.This is exactly MY point, who am I to judge what you do in the privacy of your own home? I'm not anyone and neither are you to go judging what people do out of their homes, it's their life, not yours, it's up to them how they want to act, dress etc... not you. Should we expect all GG's to act exactly like every other GG on the planet?

Which photo shows me stumbling around slobering on people?I never said they did, but again, just because someone is a TS or CD etc.. does that mean they aren't allowed to go out, dress how they like, get drunk and make a complete idiot of themselves?
So I guess having a big chest makes me bad example. I'll be sure to let Dolly Parton know she makes women look bad and is a poor example of womanhood. Dolly must be a real sicko for being so well endowed. Your right Tamera, big breasts set a really bad example, especially if you cant see them.Ooh you know Dolly Parton? excellent, when you do tell her, can you get me an autograph whilst your at it? And again, my name is TamAra...
I had no idea the standard for behavior was so low. I was always taught to put your best foot forward since first impressions are everlasting as the saying goes.Right, so everyone that goes out on a friday/saturday night should not bother having fun... gotta be on their best behaviour :rolleyes:
I'll be sure to adjust my look to the current "En Vouge" style of couch patato slouch....It will sure be nice to not have to iron anything or put any EFFORT into my apearance and when people laugh or shake their head in dispair I'l just say to hell with you I'm just expressing myself. I'm doing nothing and that is all it takes to look good.Now you're just being sarcastic... is there really any need for that? You judge others, but when I judged you, only by making a point, you didn't like it at all... the saying goes "do unto others as you would have them do to you"
Why on earth did I ever think dressing well or TRYING to look good was a worthy goal.........

Sheesh......No one said you shouldn't try to look your best, that is up to you, but don't expect others to live by your standards and don't be so quick to judge people, you're already fighting to be accepted in life, to live how you want, to dress how you wish etc... how can you be so judgemental of others, I don't get it at all?

[Sharon]

If I see someone continually getting drunk and not caring at how they look, I feel sorry for them, not scorn. They obviously are dealing with something.

I also don't get this whole "ambassador" thing. If you see a homosexual in similar circumstances, do you think less of other homosexuals? How about if they're Black, White, Asian, physically or mentally challenged, one-eyed, or what have you?

I don't expect to be an ambassador for anyone other than myself, and I don't assume anyone else to be either.

[Michelle Hart]

Tamara, I am really sorry for getting your name wrong. That was rather idotic of me since it IS right there for me to read. Dooh!!

Based on the lance of arrows raining down on me for expressing MY opinion and mine alone it's pretty obvious that nobody actually read the FIRST post in this thread.

I was mearly agreeing with someone else and now this whole thing has somehow become an exposition on MY thoughts about the original topic. That's fine, I have no problem with defending my position however unpopular it may be.

However, that does not change the FACT that standards of personal decorum have diminished.



Right, so everyone that goes out on a friday/saturday night should not bother having fun... gotta be on their best behaviour

Tamara since when do good manners conflict with having fun??


No one said you shouldn't try to look your best, that is up to you, but don't expect others to live by your standards and don't be so quick to judge people, you're already fighting to be accepted in life, to live how you want, to dress how you wish etc... how can you be so judgemental of others, I don't get it at all?

Uhh... so far just about everyone who has commented has defended the malcontents and decried me? Incedentally that was the original topic. People who realy don't try to look good or don't want to..... It was not about judgeing others behavior, it has become that which is fine with me. I like a good discussion.



Why and how are you so judgemental, Michelle?........

It was not my intent nor is it my habit to be a judge of others. There are things that I consider abhorrent and when I see it I have NO qualms about saying so.

Should the bank rober be excused because he is "troubled" or punished for being a cad? It seems like the opinion here is just give him a hug and be his freind. Just ingore the six people he killed during the commision of a crime. He's had a tough day.....How utterly moronic and stupid....... Punish the guy!!

Same for any idiot in public. What exactly do you think a "bouncers" job is? Be a fool get bounced to the curb. Societies operate on reward and punishment. Good behavoir is rewarded...bad behavoir is punished.....have none of you been scorned for doing some misdeed???

Oh brother.......

[LilSissyStevie]

How many of you or us have heard all about how "deviant" we are or how "perverted" or even "sick" we are. Does it make you PROUD to be thought of that way?

Not proud exactly, but I am what I am.:D

[victoriamwilliams1]

I can understand both sides of the debate as I was on the other side, at one time I thought I was doing a great job dressing.I had quit dressing for about 4 years but kept my old wig that I thought looked good, I had my wifes old outfit and when I met to be part of a group in my area the first thing I was told was to lose that wig and I did. I have lost most of those photos.

Today I work very hard in my presentation because I understand that I am very tall and I already standout so I might as well put on my best presentation of a women I can, and I think I do a good job representing not only tall women who are GG but those of us who are TG.

What bothers me at times is those who just don't care and the still negatives presented on television are not help either.

If they are unapproachable just let them be and be yourself.

[kerrianna]

I have to say, as a group in society who preach "acceptance", some crossdressers are incredibly judgemental! If you want to be free to wear whatever you want to wear, perhaps you should afford others the same courtesy?



Thank you. Well said, hon. :hugs:

What gives anyone here the right to judge another person? You don't know anything about them or their lives.

If you think what they are doing reflects poorly on you, then that's YOU thinking that. By judging others you don't define them as much as you define yourself.

Own your own ground and let others have theirs. It's not your place to judge anyone just because YOU wouldn't have done it that way.

[JessieB]

Are we amabassadors? Hmmm. It depends on what we define as "the Cause", I suppose. If the cause is for us to gain and enjoy greater tolerance in our society, perhaps even some acceptance, so that we can circulate and function as we are without fearing reprisal or suffering loss, then yeah, damn right, we are all ambassadors.

I don't think there's much doubt that there are more and more of us venturing out into the world to some degree or another. Granted, it's still a modest collective effort, but it is on the rise, I think. And that means that people's exposure to us is on the increase. So, what kind of impression are we making? If enough of us make a positive impression most of the time, then tolerance is going to increase. If, on the other hand, too many of us make a bad impression, then negative perception is going to be reinforced to the detriment of us all.

When you stop and consider the prevailing attitude toward us among the general population, I think we are pretty much all guilty until we manage to prove ourselves innocent (i.e., not "weird"). That's a very broad statement and I know there are exceptions, but I think it's a safe assumption, generally speaking. The long-term solution -- and it will be a long in coming -- is that we have to be bold, we have to be real, and we have to make an effort. For ourselves, and for each other.

[Nicki B]

Sorry but IMO there is no excuse for people to go out looking like they did.

And IMO there's no excuse for being so judgemental as you did.

Did you read what Julie said? DON'T EVER JUDGE people, if you're not in their shoes.


I know plenty of people who need dutch courage to get out or whose dysphoria forces them to lead miserable, depressed lives and you'd just write them off 'cos you're all right, Jacq??

Shame on you..


I get associated with this person who is always falling down drunk stumbling around in a ratty old dress.

Girls THAT IS NOT FAIR.

I bet she thinks the same...

[Tamara Croft]

And IMO there's no excuse for being so judgemental as you did.

I know plenty of people who need dutch courage to get out or whose dysphoria forces them to lead miserable, depressed lives and you'd just write them off 'cos you're all right, Jacq??

Shame on you..Exactly Nicki, wasn't just me thinking this then?


Should the bank rober be excused because he is "troubled" or punished for being a cad? It seems like the opinion here is just give him a hug and be his freind. Just ingore the six people he killed during the commision of a crime. He's had a tough day.....How utterly moronic and stupid....... Punish the guy!!This is totally irrelevant to the subject, has bugger all to do with cd/ing TS's etc...

[GypsyKaren]

The thing is, different people are into different things, so it matters not to me as long as it involves consenting adults. Everyone's entitled to their own tastes, it doesn't hurt anyone else, and if you don't like it you don't have to look.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Amy Hepker]

I believe it is how I feel inside when I dress. I do not care if others like the way I dress or not, I am not trying to please them, but myself. I do try to act the part and hopefully not get poited at and have someone say something, but if they do, you cannot take it to heart, just remember that you are happy and who cares if they say anything. Chances are if someone does say something then they are not happy with themselves and have to cut others down to try to look good themselves.

[bgirl]

I make a lot of effort and technically passable but get read anyway and don't care, don't go to bars when I go out. I met a couple once at a Tri-Ess meeting, sitting quietly hand in hand, the CD was wearing a simple skirt and top, no wig or make up, I think that was all she had, surrounded by all these maxed out CDs ready for our annual xmas party. So I struck up a conversation. It soon became evident that she was happy to at least wear what she did have and be with us, sadly she couldn't come to the party(for her own personal reasons). I wish she could have and I would have gone anywhere in Atlanta with her, she was a sister doing what she could with what she had and enjoying it.

I am absolutely with you on this one! I think if you do what you can. Further, just because someone else doesn't care at all, it doesn't reflect on me or the rest of us one bit. I think enough of us have tired of people judging us based on what the majority of society does, we should certainly balk at being judged on the basis at what is obviously a small fraction of what already is a minority of the population.
In a coment to one of my dear sisters, I made the statement that I don't let my passibility limit my possibilities. I do the best I can and I hope to learn to do better.
But when I go out the front door I plan on getting read. If I don't get read that great! And if I do get read, its not unexpected. I feel wonderful just being out there.

[ann stef]

the effort is important, I have to use make-up to hide the rudy face and wrinkles. I do pass as an old lady with grace.

[Lisa Golightly]

Most of the time I look shit but when they grab my tits they don't fall out on to the floor... Go figure...