Reality Check

[Mirani]

I was going to post this in answer to another thread, but didnt want to sound critical of the individual. So these are my thoughts which were initialised after reading someone being disappointed/aggrieved/insulted by being described as a guy in a dress.

But we ARE guys in dresses .... it is not an insult .. its the truth!
The camera is kind to me - in "real life" . out there in the world (where I now spend 50% time en femme) although I get very little hassle .. I am what I am - a guy in a dress.

Now add into the equation that an SO recently "dumped on" (been told or found out after being deceived - and lets be honest - lied to) knows "the man" then no matter how you present she will always see YOU under the wig/makeup etc.

I didn/t mean this to sound harsh or a criticism of anyone here. I am making a general statement that:
1) because we ARE built differently,
2) because we might not be able to afford a really good wig,
3) because we have big feet and big hands
4) because we have broader shoulders, thicker arms,
5) because we have a waist in the wrong place and quite often boobs that are too big and too high ....
6) because our makeup skills may be lacking at times
7) because (add your own here .... )

well its no surprise that no matter how good I feel about myself, no matter how kind a camera is,no matter my mirror may lie to me - others will see "a guy in a dress".

I am comfortable with that and just get on with being me. Its nice to be "ignored" or not noticed and treated with respect. I even am called "madam/miss" and treated as if I were a female - BUT I am not a woman as much as I like to present as one.

Some of us are blessed with enough money to buy well, makeup skills honed over time, a figure to die for and a femme demeanour. Most if us aren't.

I just feel we might do better as crossdressers to be happy to be happy whilst dressed. To enjoy feeling womanly or feminine. To sometimes look in a mirror and feel good about ourselves - but to be Ok about the fact we are "guys in dresses and ... so what!

(I recognise that issues may be different for TG/TS girls who feel they ARE a woman and live as a woman rather than a CD who enjoys his femininity from time to time).

No offence intended to anyone.

[vivianann]

you are right, oh well I am not affended, that is life.

[Dalece]

Good post

[ania83cd]

It's sad but true.

[Amy Hepker]

I am a girl trapped in a mans body that wears a dress.

[yms]

Could not have said it better.

[melissacd]

I absolutely agree, you have hit the nail on the head. The issue is one of accepting who we are and then being able to walk confidently in society as that person. That is the biggest challenge that we face. Once we can get past that then the rest becomes easier.

[deja true]

Coming out to ourselves is certainly the hardest coming out of all.

[Carly D.]

I think dresses were never made for the man form and so we show the shortcoming when we wear them.. I am not offended in the least by the statement that I am a man in a dress because I am.. and really anymore what I really wish could happen is that everybody could just wear what they want to, gender be damned.. but I'm not sure how I would even feel about that because there is a certain rush of excitement towards dressing in womens clothes that if the isles were mixed might not be there for me anymore...

[annekathleen]

AGREE! 100%:thumbsup:

[Kate-May]

Nothing to add except thanks for posting such a realistic appraisal.

[Michelle-NC]

Very good post!

[MJ]

And so true . but if i may add even some ts hold the same thought as you i was born a guy . the only difference between me and you is about $20.000.00 + + :heehee:

[victoriamwilliams1]

1) because we ARE built differently,
2) because we might not be able to afford a really good wig,

True

3) because we have big feet and big hands

Not 100% true, I live in an area where women of another culter actually have big feet and hands.

4) because we have broader shoulders, thicker arms,

I have seen GG's with broad shoulders.

5) because we have a waist in the wrong place and quite often boobs that are too big and too high ....

1/2 true, some GG's have big ones too:)

6) because our makeup skills may be lacking at times

I think GG's even lack in this area too.


Though I agree with you, I also believe that womens body types are based on genetics and cannot be generalized. I had this same conversation with a GG a while back because she kept calling another GG a TS because she had the same traits listed above, and yet she was a GG 100%

For me I know who I am and I am only asking to be accepted. I think that many women use this argument and even they know that it is not a valid argument. I have seen men who are not TG with so called female hands and even one who had to wear womens pants because of his hips where the same as a womans.

Most women do not know this because men tend to hide our in perfections with our bodies.

:2c:

[TGMarla]

Victoria points out that there are exceptions to every generalization. She is also correct that African-American women, for example, may well have larger hands (remember, these are generalizations!!!) shoulders, and feet. This can be true for any people, and all people are built differently. But my wife has small, feminine hands, slender shoulders, and her weight is distributed to her hips, not her gut. Her sisters, however, have their weight distributed to their midsections as well.

As for me, I have guy hands, guy feet, guy arms, and a guy waist. It is only with a generous amount of cover-up that I manage to pull off looking like a woman. So the premise as presented by Mirani at the top of this thread still stands. I am a guy in a dress. Heck, that's why I'm here!

[Annie D]

I agree with your thread; most of us are men in a dress. Most of us are not really fooling anybody because several of us are over 6' tall and over 200 lbs. Like you said, we have size 13 or 14 women's shoes and can palm a basketball. Our arms are longer and more muscular; did you know that the distance from your elbow to your wrist is the length of your foot? Talk about a giveaway! Because we are women at heart, we want to communicate with people and talk and share ideas about a multitude of topics other than sports but when we open our mouths, we give ourselves away. I am not being cynical but real.

I have been out several times in daylight wearing women's clothing without a wig or make up. I am not trying to fool anyone but I am trying in a small way to demonstrate that I like wearing women's clothing and not trying to hide who I am. When I share with other CD's that I do this, I don't get any comments but their silence speaks volumes about their disapproval. Like I said another time; women who dress as men don't try to hide their gender and they are accepted. When I dress, I sometimes too, don't want to hide my gender because when you come down to it, I really can't do it.

When I go out with other CD's, I do try to present myself as a woman, I would never try to jeopordize the other ladies but when I go out to get my nails done or get my arms or chest waxed, I present myself differently.

[victoriamwilliams1]

did you know that the distance from your elbow to your wrist is the length of your foot?

:eek: I just measured my feet are smaller by 1/3 inch :). I guess all I have to do now is place the shoes in my arms. I did not know that one. The funny part to me on this topic is that FtM's pass better as men and no woman bats an eye.

[Maria2004]

Well said Mirani. Being pretty on the outside is chance and transitory, being pretty on the inside is choice and will form a more lasting impression from those we meet when we are able to project it. I feel my greatest blessing is being able to accept myself as I am and reject my perceived limitations, like manly hands and arms and face, and once I was told years ago that I had "the ugliest feet ever seen", still I go to the salon and get my manicure and pedicure, I enjoy wearing open toed shoes, I don't dress down so I attract attention, which doesn't matter to me because I am very happy, I dress for myself and no one else. And by and large the rest of the world doesn't seem to have a problem with that and I'm left alone to be content.

[Sandi jo]

If i were to guess very few of us could pass upon a close inspection but its what it does for you that is the main point

[Tree GG]

...knows "the man" then no matter how you present she will always see YOU under the wig/makeup etc....

...BUT I am not a woman as much as I like to present as one....


Very, very well said.

[Michelle 51]

I,m trying to think if you missed anything but i guess you pretty well said it all girl.
justabit

[crusadergirl]

I didn/t mean this to sound harsh or a criticism of anyone here. I am making a general statement that:
1) because we ARE built differently,
2) because we might not be able to afford a really good wig,
3) because we have big feet and big hands
4) because we have broader shoulders, thicker arms,
5) because we have a waist in the wrong place and quite often boobs that are too big and too high ....
6) because our makeup skills may be lacking at times
7) The statements are mostly wrong.
I have to say this i don't agree with most of what you have said. That man in a dress stuff is just another way of saying you can't be who you want to be b/c you don't have the look of most women.
I could of said it way better.
So what if you have big hands and feet are thicker arms. I agree with you 10% at most thats not much.

[PatriciaT]

Hi Mirani

"I just feel we might do better as crossdressers to be happy to be happy whilst dressed. To enjoy feeling womanly or feminine. To sometimes look in a mirror and feel good about ourselves - but to be Ok about the fact we are "guys in dresses and ... so what!"


YES, WAY TO GO!

Some CDs may have a high passing ratio, but probably most of us just consider ourselves lucky to ignored and perhaps accepted. If you feel good about yourself and make an effort to look reasonably good, you should have very few problems at all. The vast majority of the time people will ignore or even accept you for what you are, a "man in a dress." This is borne out by a lot of the postings describing outings out and about en femme.

The important thing is to enjoy expresssing the feminine aspect we have and to do this with an air of confidence. Our long term goal should be eventually to win acceptence by society.

Patricia

[Mirani]

Hi Crusader girl.
Of course its OK that you hold an alternative view - but I would like to say in response to: "That man in a dress stuff is just another way of saying you can't be who you want to be b/c you don't have the look of most women."

Oh yes - I can be all of who I want to be. I want to be an individual who can choose his/her presentation to the world. I am a man - I do NOT want to be a woman. I just want to express my femininity and relate to the world from my feminine perspective. So I "wear a dress".
Simple maths: Man + Dress = Man in a dress.
I understand that on our spectrum of crossdressing there are many who want to BE a woman and are frustrated about their position.

Many of us just want the freedom to express the level of femininity within us.

[sandra-leigh]

Our arms are longer and more muscular; did you know that the distance from your elbow to your wrist is the length of your foot? Talk about a giveaway!

Inside elbow or outside elbow? My foot is a couple of inches longer than my inside elbow to my wrist.

I do not recall even once having examined a GG's elbow-wrist to foot length ratio. Is the ratio in GGs such well-known knowledge that no-one ever bothers to talk about it, more pervasive even than the knowledge that we have to breath to survive (which -does- get talked about) ? As I haven't heard of this before, and my wife doesn't happen to be home tonight for me to measure: what is the corresponding ratio for GG's?

[Angie G]

Are you telling me I'm not a real girl Mirani no wonder I've been getting funny look at the mall :hugs:
Angie

[tamarav]

I rarely wear dresses because they are so few and far between where I live. A gay couple moved here from Dallas and asked me why there are so many lesbians. I told them that the women here just can't wear dresses and heels in the potato fields.

Besides, you rarely get to look up a dress and see who is really wearing it anyway..

Does the attached photo make my butt look big?

Tami

[deja true]

"Does the attached photo make my butt look big?"


Looks fine, tamarav, but could be a little bigger for my tastes.

You know you're hawt, but just keep teasing us anyway, sweetie.

[Deborah Jane]

I,m not a bloke in a dress!!
I,m a bloke in womens skinny jeans and jumper today:heehee:
But seriously, if we accept ourselves for what we are, life should become easier for us.

[TSchapes]

I like a challenge, especially when someone says I can't do something. In the end, yes the cold hard fact: dude in a dress, but I'm going to try my hardest to do the best I personally can.

This is one thing that has hit me here on the message board. No one here knows what canvas each one of us starts off with. Some girls can pinch their cheeks, throw on a dress and walk right out the door and pass. Others have to overcome all kinds of obstacles and restrictions. Now, you can accept those restrictions (masculine face, gobs of body hair, too tall), and enjoy yourself or you can identify them, find clever ways to overcome them and enjoy the process of overcoming them. Again, I enjoy a challenge and for me this is part of the fun! :D

[Lesley Ann]

Just on one point. I have a friend who is 5'11 tall takes the same size shoe as myself and wears almost the same size clothes as I do and she is a woman.
I notice now that more and more woman are getting taller, broader etc.,there are now store's that advertise 'Long and Tall' fashions, and I must admit that although I take a 32" inside leg my dress size is a 14(Uk) and skirt and jean size 12(Uk) I have little problem in shopping, so I think something out there is happening. I certainly agree with all the other points on this thread. Love & Roses Lesley Ann.

[Nicki B]

..I certainly agree with all the other points on this thread.

Then it looks, sadly, as if I'm going to be a lone voice, then.

I really don't think some of you realise the absolute pain and misery the 'bloke in a dress' label often causes? Though sometimes people seem to use it on themselves because of a lack of self-belief - if I kick myself first, nobody else needs to?

Personally I don't mind being refered to collectively as 'guys' - it's often a unisex term, these days. But I am NOT 'just' a man in a frock - anything but?

And it's got sod-all to do with passing or not passing, it's to do with not fitting into that binary assumption..:Angry3:

[Rachaelb64]

I'm a bloke in a skirt and a top or jeans & a top! Dresses don't suit me!

Mind you I've never really liked dresses, skirts yes :)

No offence taken I'm just trying to be me, a bloke in a skirt :D :dom:

[DemonicDaughter]

For those of you that aren't in transition (i.e. being you aren't a transwoman) and identify as being specifically a crossdresser, isn't it being a bit hypocritical to say that you aren't a man in a dress? You want SO's to accept you as you are, as being both masculine and feminine, as both male and female but you get insulted over having your masculine side pointed out?!

Do you get insulted when in drab and told you seem feminine?

The truth is, you are YOU in a dress. You aren't defined by gender (according to your own posts), you aren't defined by your clothes (again according to your own posts) and yet to be offended over a statement that points out your male side? ["you" being collective in this post, not directed towards any specific individual]

Be just as proud of your masculinity as you are your femininity! Be proud of who you are! You are both, you are balanced (or should be) you are in a unique position in life to be able to relate to more of the world because you can understand the intricacies of both genders.

So enjoy being both genders!

[donnadawn]

No, I'm not a man in a dress because I don't wear one, atleast no in public. But, I do wear womens clothes in public. It is just that I don't try to pass as a GG and I, unless you were to look closely, I don't even look like a man in women's clothes. What I wear I wear because of what it does for ME not for what it might look like to some one else. The reason I don't wear a dress is that I would not pass as a GG and do not want to be pointed at nor do I want to make other people uncomfortable. But, that is just me and I'm still growing and learning.

[Lucy Bright]

As with a lot of language, whether or not the "guy in a dress" label is insulting depends a lot on who's saying it and why. (c.f. "queer"). I've seen videos by transgender people on Youtube (some passable, some not, all of them a lot braver than me) and inevitably there'll be some joker who pops up in the comments section and says "Get real - you're just a guy in a dress!"

Now, to my mind there's a world of difference between some anonymous lunkhead on Youtube who's just out to hurt someone they don't know at all, and Mirani, who understands these issues from the inside and is only trying to offer what she sees as a helpful corrective to those who might be a) needlessly offended by naive people who just say what they see, or b) entering into a strange world of self-deceiving double-think about who they really are. Same phrase, totally different meaning.

For myself, it's one of those 'all depends what you mean by' questions. If 'guy' means someone with male genitalia and genes then yes, I'm a guy in a dress. If it takes in one's gender identity, then - well, I'm not a guy or a girl, I'm TG.

Kisses,

Lucy

[Nicki B]

..but you get insulted over having your masculine side pointed out?!

The trouble is, this way of doing it inherently belittles, even denies our feminine side? We have both..


Now, to my mind there's a world of difference between some anonymous lunkhead on Youtube who's just out to hurt someone they don't know at all, and Mirani, who understands these issues from the inside and is only trying to offer what she sees as a helpful corrective to those who might be a) needlessly offended by naive people who just say what they see, or b) entering into a strange world of self-deceiving double-think about who they really are. Same phrase, totally different meaning.

Yet it's the people who should know better who are the ones who actually cause the most hurt? The ones who should realise that we're not just CDs & TSs - there's a whole world of people in between, who suffer a very real dysphoria because of their masculinity?


You really think some of us need a 'helpful corrective'? We already have the mirror... :wall:

And as 'who they really are' - well pardon me, but who are you, to judge for them? :sad:

[Lucy Bright]

You really think some of us need a 'helpful corrective'? We already have the mirror... :wall:

And as 'who they really are' - well pardon me, but who are you, to judge for them? :sad:

Don't misunderstand me: I'm neither offering a corrective nor judging, but giving my take on what Mirani meant to do, and the spirit in which she meant it. (If I'm wrong I'm sure she'll correct me.) As a matter of fact, my own opinion is closer to yours on this one.

Kisses,

Lucy

[docrobbysherry]

All of what u say, I agree with. I have no intention of leaving my closet, because I KNOW I look like a man in a dress. But many of u DO.

Why? Why do u think CDs can't, or won't, accept that they r a "man in a dress"? Or that they LOOK like one? Yet they go out in public, as u said, and get hurt when it is shoved in their faces. I don't understand why they/u would do that?

[DemonicDaughter]

The trouble is, this way of doing it inherently belittles, even denies our feminine side? We have both..

If someone is doing it as if to put you back into your place, then I agree. But if its being stated as a simple fact, as the original post was attempting to convey, then why be insulted?

Yes, you are both and that's the point. I feel their should be pride in all aspects. :)

[Nicki B]

But if its being stated as a simple fact, as the original post was attempting to convey, then why be insulted?

DD, that 'simple fact' is such a slap in the face - many people spend so much time trying not to be defined by what's between their legs? And when it's people from within our community saying this, trust me, it really does cause a lot of anguish?

That's what dysphoria is - and it's not just TSs who suffer dysphoria?


Say it about oneself, by all means - but PLEASE stop telling other people what they are. Labels (and this is one) cause too much hurt...

[DemonicDaughter]

DD, that 'simple fact' is such a slap in the face - many people spend so much time trying not to be defined by what's between their legs? And when it's people from within our community saying this, trust me, it really does cause a lot of anguish?

That's what dysphoria is - and it's not just TSs who suffer dysphoria?

Say it about oneself, by all means - but PLEASE stop telling other people what they are. Labels (and this is one) cause too much hurt...

See how, that makes a bit more sense. That's why I stated specifically transwomen/men in my statement because I understand they don't identify as both genders but one. But a lot of things aren't stated very clearly to people outside of CDing. Many state to identify as both often confusing many SO's.

Albeit, its different for everyone and there are no "one size fits all" answers, but I think there should be some things stated far more clearly by CDers to their mates. Things like identifying as primarily one gender or both, or a better understanding of the level one wishes to CD. Or how about something as basic as what it means to you or how important it might be.

I also think it might be someone's defense regarding CDing. Perhaps she needed to keep saying that to help her cope. I'm not condoning it, and technically do not agree with the statement, but I can at least keep my mind open to how they might feel.

Reading these threads with some that are offended by someone saying they feel like women in male bodies, or that they were born the wrong gender, or that they "want" to be women or its only sexual, so on and so forth, its not wonder so many SO's are so confused on where their partners are going with CDing.

Just like the gay issue, just like the passing issue, just like the purging issue, just like so many other issues constantly posted on this forum...

Stop drawing lines in the sand and dividing the human race further down to where everyone is in their own little category. If you want love and acceptance from others, you'll have to start with yourself first and then show everyone else how its done.

[ReineD]

I may be stating the obvious, but would the different reactions to Mirani's post depend on someone's particular position along the TG continuum and how much this position is determined by his life circumstances (sexual orientation, single, married, kids, type of job, level of acceptance among people in his life, etc)?

It seems to me that a TG who primarily identifies or wants to identify as male would come to better terms with someone pointing out he is a "guy in a dress" than a TG who primarily identifies as female. Would feelings be mixed among those who identify equally with both genders? What complicates matters further is perhaps gender identity can change over time, with changing life circumstances.

[Lydia Hamilton]

Ha! I could not agree with you more. I suspose that is the reason my "dressing" is limited. In a dress or out of a dress, I still look like a carpenter/welder. However, there are few with such nice legs. L.

[Mirani]

To be clear:
"man in a dress" was meant as a collective term for dressing femme !!! Not a literal term.
Also, I thought I made it clear (see last para of my first post) that I wasn't talking about TG ladies here who seek to BE (or are) women. I recognise that to be seen as a "man in a dress" is a different issue in such circumstances.

[gennee]

I said that too and it's true.

Gennee


:)

[Nicki B]

I just feel we might do better as crossdressers to be happy to be happy whilst dressed. To enjoy feeling womanly or feminine. To sometimes look in a mirror and feel good about ourselves - but to be Ok about the fact we are "guys in dresses and ... so what!

(I recognise that issues may be different for TG/TS girls who feel they ARE a woman and live as a woman rather than a CD who enjoys his femininity from time to time).

No offence intended to anyone.

Mirani, I understand where you're coming from and I applaud the idea of accepting oneself - perhaps where I disagree (with you and others) is on the assumption that you can only either be one gender or another?

Honestly, I am pleased you have something that works for you - but it's not offence, it feels like pain for some to be dismissed merely as a man in a dress - it's like rubbing salt in a wound they already have (they know how they've been treated, from birth)? It really isn't kind, amongst people who are trans... And I don't think you can count CDs out of people who are trans? (TG as a term is widely used to describe everyone, not just those transitioning?)

Dysphoria is an unhappiness with being seen as male. It comes in different forms and strengths - but it's a fair bet that many of us know what it feels like to a degree?


Ask yourself who (or what) you would prefer to see in the mirror, if you could... :strugglin

[TxKimberly]

Holy smokes - I swear I could have written this post, every single word of it.
For obvious reasons (mostly self image and ego) I am disappointed when I'm read, but not offended. I wish with all my heart that was 100% passable, and everyone would think me female when I go out, but there is no point at being mad at someone (or the world) because they know I'm a male. As you said, this is the reality so there is little point to getting angry at someone else for it.

[Nicki B]

..there is no point at being mad at someone (or the world) because they know I'm a male.

But Kimberly, how do they generally treat you, even then? If someone were to say 'Hello Sir' to you, how would you feel? :idontknow:

[Mirani]

But Kimberly, how do they generally treat you, even then? If someone were to say 'Hello Sir' to you, how would you feel?

Well I am not Kimberly, but this has happened to me. I went out with Amanda to a Thai restaurant. I thought I was looking pretty good. As we went in we were shown to a table and we sat down. The waitress said "Would you like a drink Sir?"
Well we fell about laughing. The waitress wasn't being "awful" she just saw me for who I was and addressed me that way.
BUT after giggling for ever, we thought about it.
Perhaps my male behaviour was the real key.
I opened the door for Amanda, let her sit down first and gave the eye contact to the waitress as if to say "I'm in charge" .
Well we didn't ask her so we can only surmise, and it was probably not a concious decision for her anyway.
Also on occasions when out, I have had men call out "Your balls are showing" and "Geezer, Geezer" and girls say loudly "OMG that's a guy" etc, etc.

Well - I believe it says more about them than me.
Oh I did check. My balls were not showing but other than that they were right. I am a geezer, or a guy! But I still think I was looking pretty cool :)

[Suzy Harrison]

I agree with what you say, but when I'm out I do feel very female so if something goes wrong and I'm read, I feel terribly upset about it.

I really haven't had any bad experinces, but it does hurt when you realise you haven't presented yourself as good as you were hoping too.

We're never going to be 100% but we had to keep aiming for it anyway.

[battybattybats]

Hmmm the man-in-a-dress thing can be pretty offensive.

After all some people may not be sure if they are transexual or a crossdresser, to them that could be quite cutting. Some who are genderqueer could get very offended too.

To say it about oneself is of course always fine but others? No I don't agree. Some are happy to be men-in-dresses, some will be women-in-bodies-of-men-in-dresses and many more complex variations.

Reality is never simple nor simplistic.

That said I enjoy having a male and female side. I consider myself more than just a man in a dress, but I do not disregard nor despise my male side.

[jessielee]

thankfully, no one has yet brought up
"scary guy in a wig"
at least not in this thread.

[Fab Karen]

Hmmm the man-in-a-dress thing can be pretty offensive.

After all some people may not be sure if they are transexual or a crossdresser, to them that could be quite cutting. Some who are genderqueer could get very offended too.

To say it about oneself is of course always fine but others? No I don't agree. Some are happy to be men-in-dresses, some will be women-in-bodies-of-men-in-dresses and many more complex variations.

Reality is never simple nor simplistic.

That said I enjoy having a male and female side. I consider myself more than just a man in a dress, but I do not disregard nor despise my male side.
I agree & relate. There is a whole spectrum, not so black-and-white.

[DemonicDaughter]

Hmmm the man-in-a-dress thing can be pretty offensive.

After all some people may not be sure if they are transexual or a crossdresser, to them that could be quite cutting. Some who are genderqueer could get very offended too.

To say it about oneself is of course always fine but others? No I don't agree. Some are happy to be men-in-dresses, some will be women-in-bodies-of-men-in-dresses and many more complex variations.

Reality is never simple nor simplistic.

That said I enjoy having a male and female side. I consider myself more than just a man in a dress, but I do not disregard nor despise my male side.

It was originally stated by a GG about her husband. Now we cannot speak for other people and say she said it to be spiteful or not. BUT the original post was regarding those who is specifically a male who wears female clothing with no intention of changing their sex or does not feel they are transexual.

I believe the point was, if you identify as both genders (and expressing the female aspect via dressing) then should you really be insulted by this term.

I don't see anyone as specifically male nor female. Nor do I care to identify anyone as either. You are who you are, gender doesn't dictate personality. BUT this post was, I believe, originated to point out that one shouldn't be offended if one is being called what one is.

[Nicki B]

It was originally stated by a GG about her husband.

But Mirani started the thread - she's not a GG??? :strugglin


thankfully, no one has yet brought up "scary guy in a wig" at least not in this thread.

Oh, what the hell... He's gonna kill me for this... :hiding:

[Kieron Andrew]

:doh: for the record, both times i was DEFINITELY under the influence of alcohol AND pretty girls :heehee:

[Nicki B]

It took half a bottle of bourbon to get you under the pink wig, I recall.. :heehee:

[Kieron Andrew]

It took half a bottle of bourbon to get you under the pink wig, I recall.. :heehee:

yup...you really should know i dont do anything like that willingly....*waits for the stick from the boys*

oi! ive just realised you've classed me as a scary guy!! bah :tongueout

[shirley1]

i like the look ! cheered me up at at this late hour

[Sallee]

I agree I think there are those times when I pass well But really I stand 5'10" not tall for a guy but a chick! be real I am a guy in a wig with boobs and fem cut jeans. Be real Have good time and generally no cares

[ZenFrost]

yup...you really should know i dont do anything like that willingly....*waits for the stick from the boys*

oi! ive just realised you've classed me as a scary guy!! bah :tongueout

Here, stick. Okay, done now.

P.S. I don't find you scary, just funny.

[DemonicDaughter]

But Mirani started the thread - she's not a GG??? :strugglin

I know she's not a GG, she stated in the original thread that the person who originally made the statement was a GG.


So these are my thoughts which were initialised after reading someone being disappointed/aggrieved/insulted by being described as a guy in a dress.

Now add into the equation that an SO recently "dumped on" (been told or found out after being deceived - and lets be honest - lied to) knows "the man" then no matter how you present she will always see YOU under the wig/makeup etc.

These statements were made in Mirani's original post and she is referring to a previous thread both her and I posted on. A GG made the original statement and Mirani started this thread after reading it and seeing the reactions.

[shirley1]

passings important - passings not its acceptance thats needed - its starting to do my head in ! i happen to think mirani (hope i have spelt your name right!) looks damn good from her avtar - but i guess out in the lite of day very few of us would completely fool anyone - myself included - but now i know what the likes of nicki is saying about acceptance and i think the hardest part for many of us taking our first steps is the fear of not being accepted by the public - i dont particulary want to be insulted or attacked walking down the street in either mode ! thats excactly what scares me - ignorant people who would quite happily torment and harrass you just for being and living a lifestyle you feel the need and want to do ! is it hurting anyone else - what the f????k has it got to do with anyone else !

[TxKimberly]

But Kimberly, how do they generally treat you, even then? If someone were to say 'Hello Sir' to you, how would you feel? :idontknow:

I HAVE had this happen, several times. I didn't like it much, but as Mirani says, how can you blame them? As much as I try like hell to hide it, I AM a man so how can I fault them for calling me Sir?
I also think that some people honestly don't know what is appropriate.

[sandra-leigh]

If someone were to say 'Hello Sir' to you, how would you feel?

Taxi drivers call me "Sir" far more often than not -- it is rare for them to refer to me in the feminine no matter how well I think I'm made up.

Now that might be partly my voice, as I have barely worked on my voice, but it is also true that I've had a fair number of people that met me in drab recognize me fairly quickly by appearance alone when I've been en femme in completely different clothes and hair. And no, I don't have an adam's apple or prominent nose, and it is scary how much I look like my mother sometimes (so it isn't a matter of having a very masculine face.) Some day I'm going to have to sit down with some people and figure out what gives me away so easily. (Unfortunately I can't do much about the glasses.)

Having a taxi driver call me "Sir" when I'm fully dressed is a little disappointing, but more from the politeness aspect than from the "being read" aspect: if I've taken the trouble to present as female, it would be polite to be referred to in the feminine. (If I'm in a dress or skirt, and wig, and carrying a purse, then call me M'am or Miss, not Sir!)

[DemonicDaughter]

I was thinking (dangerous, I know) about this post last night and thought about something Calpernia Addams said.

She stated in her video "Bad Questions to ask a Transexual" that being asked "Are you a tranny?" really isn't a question but the person basically stating "you haven't fooled me". As Calpernia said, its as if they are trying to put you "back into your place" (i.e. "society's" version thereof).

I think that would be far more upsetting in light of being called a "man in a dress" because then it would be a true insult. It would be someone attempting to make sure you didn't think you were something you were not. And that part, I could completely understand being upset over.

But as Mirani is saying, being called that by an SO... I don't know. I think if its not being stated in a hateful way, and she is telling her husband (who we are generalizing as not having gender issues) that she sees him as that. There are people that are turned on sexually by the thought of one gender in the other gender's clothing. So in that instance, again, being called a man in a dress isn't exactly being insulting. So Mirani has a point there.

Love who you are, not what you are.

I would love to live in an idealistic world where no one sees gender, but some people need to. That is how they identify their sexuality, social role, etc. I don't identify anyone by gender, nor do I identify myself as one. Yet I am not insulted to be referred to by either one. I am masculine and feminine. I love that about myself. I cannot praise someone for pointing out one aspect then condemn them for pointing out the other.

[Nicki B]

But as Mirani is saying, being called that by an SO... I don't know.


I didn/t mean this to sound harsh or a criticism of anyone here. I am making a general statement that:
1) because we ARE built differently,
2) because we might not be able to afford a really good wig,
3) because we have big feet and big hands
4) because we have broader shoulders, thicker arms,
5) because we have a waist in the wrong place and quite often boobs that are too big and too high ....
6) because our makeup skills may be lacking at times
7) because (add your own here .... )

With respect - what she seems to be saying in this thread is much more generalised - we're being told what we are. I know plenty of people the above wouldn't apply too?

All I'm asking is, particularly within our community, appreciate the offence and hurt this sort of comment can cause (particularly when it's done repeatedly) - just sticking a 'but no offence meant' on the end isn't really good enough? :sad:



These statements were made in Mirani's original post and she is referring to a previous thread both her and I posted on. A GG made the original statement and Mirani started this thread after reading it and seeing the reactions.

Perhaps you could post a link - maybe I'm missing something?

But this thread seems to me to be meant very generally? Nowhere does it just say it should be okay for your SO to see you as a man? :strugglin

[kittypw GG]

Very, very well said.

Very well said and necessary for many spouses to feel comfortable with the whole thing. I try to never loose sight of the man.

Really healthy thoughts you have and thanks for sharing them.
Kitty

[battybattybats]

I suppose one massive problem is knowing for sure if someone has no gender issues and won't be insulted by the 'man in a dress' sort of line. An assumption or deduction with a wide margin of error.

For some being too caught up with or strongly rminded of the reality of male anatomy could be a trigger to a spiral towards depression. Certainly reminding a transexual of aspects of themselves that are distinctly male anatomied and when they aren't strong enough to come to terms with that vould be very cruel.

I'm not saying it's a statement that can never be ok, but it's a dangerous one that must be used wisely.

A certain amount of delicacy should be considered.
After all would many women be happy if someone stated matter-of-factly what their greatest physical flaws were? A few might be ok, some would burst into tears and some would become physically violent (I've seen that happen!).

A little tact, a little consideration for the fact that CD's TS's GQ's DQ's DK's and anyone else Transgender are amongst the most discriminated against, marginalised vulnerable at-risk folk with one of the worst suicide rates seems neccessary to me.

Sure for some of us it's good to be proud of our male bodies and masculinity too. I know I generally am. But when I'm in a skirt I don't think of myself as a guy in a skirt.

Gender isn't something neccessarily bad or that shouldn't exist in my view. It's something that shouldn't be enforced proscribed or assumed though.

Like Yin and Yang we each have different balances of male and female within, thats how I understand genderto be.

Oh and I loved that Calpernia Addams vid!

[DemonicDaughter]

Seeing as how we are all entitled to our opinions, I'm retaining mine and ending my part in this thread. I feel that the same topic is just going to go in circles and that's pointless. I respect anyone else's thoughts and appreciate them being voiced. But this isn't my thread and I've stated how I felt. Mirani, sorry for hijacking your thread, its yours again.

:love:

[Nicki B]

Very well said and necessary for many spouses to feel comfortable with the whole thing. I try to never loose sight of the man.

Really healthy thoughts you have and thanks for sharing them.
Kitty

Surely, the whole concept of the term 'cross-dresser' comes from Tri-Ess in the USA, who promulgated the term and the idea that we are all just heterosexual males, in earlier decades? It was an idea of it's time, to try and not scare the horses, but for people to still have the idea that for the vast majority of us this is just some sort of dressing up game, or hobby, is deceitful? :strugglin

There's been a whole bunch of vitriol recently, heaped on deceiving people - but we do what we do because it goes to the core of who we are as people. You only have to look around at the threads to see the pain and unhappiness that causes.. :sad:

[Mirani]

DD - you hijacked nothing. Thank you for your input which I have found interesting and thought provoking.

Seems tho' that although I genuinely meant no offence to anyone, some will not accept my word and I feel somewhat disparaged.

However, I stand by my FIRST post which started the thread. Careful reading will see my intent was to share a view to which I am entitled. I wont repeat myself.

Thanks to those who PM'd me and I appreciate the positive responses which outweigh the negative.

As in many areas of life, people hold differing views. C'est la vie!

[waspookie6]

Mirani, it seems odd to reiterate the sentiment you were thinking. I read the intial post and didn't overthink it because my brain doesn't associate it with anything more than a sentiment, not a "this is a box, I belong in this box and this box ONLY". :strugglin

Like me saying "I'm a girl wearing jeans" and "I'm a girl racing cars" when no matter how good the jeans fit or how good my track times are, I'm still just a girl with engine smudge on my arms and face that had a good run...in jeans. Take off the helmet and...I'm a girl in jeans who raced a car. Might have had the best track time that day, still a girl when all is said and done. I try, I try really hard to get that best time but it takes a lot of practice to pull it off, a lot of nerve to do it in the first place and plenty of thick skin when I've dialed in and no one compliments me on that.
I've never felt insulted.
I've never felt hurt.
I've wished at times I had the male bits so the guys would take me more seriously - but - it isn't going to happen except on a very rare occasion.

My DH is a guy in a dress.
That is fine, it is who he is. He says "I'm a guy, in a dress" and I get it.

Guess I'm baffled (easily), it just didn't seem to carry any malice towards anyone at all?

[Lucy Bright]

My DH is a guy in a dress.
That is fine, it is who he is. He says "I'm a guy, in a dress" and I get it.

Guess I'm baffled (easily), it just didn't seem to carry any malice towards anyone at all?

I certainly don't think Mirani's post was malicious, but all the same there is a real difficulty here, as Nicki and Battybats have pointed out. Mirani rightly made a distinction between the CDs like herself who identify as male, and those others at the TS end of the spectrum who identify as female - for whom the "guy in a dress" label would clearly be inaccurate and offensive. But there are quite a few of us (what proportion of the forum we make up I'd love to know) who don't fit either of these descriptions, who don't identify primarily as either male or female. For us, even ticking the Male/Female box on a form can be a painful experience, because it reminds us that we don't exist - or at least that society at large will not or cannot recognize our existence, without insisting that we're "really" male or "really" female, and disallowing any other options.

That's the problem. I don't have a solution, other than I suppose to keep pointing it out whenever it comes up.

Kisses,

Lucy

[waspookie6]

Lucy, that does help because I get the part where you are supposed to check that box...and I get confused as well. Sometimes I feel "male" that day or "female", who is to say? It's how one feels on the inside I suppose so when the cards were on the table, 'a guy in a dress' is like saying 'a bear wears a fur coat'.
Does that make any sense?

What truly strikes me are the avatars and pictures of many here, I don't see anything but a (geeze, labels) female. That is truly all I see. But if you were to ask I suppose just the simple truth that carries no connotation would be 'a guy in a dress' - it doesn't change who the person is on the inside or how they feel at that given moment.

Maybe I dislike semantics the most. They can be so contentious yet we do need something to communicate with.
Seeing a smile, to me, communicates more that a guy in a dress or a girl in jeans. It just means the person is happy no matter what the circumstance or written words are.
Trips me up every single time but I am sincere about trying to understand how folks of all feel when something like this is tabled for thought and insight.

Thanks :)

[jessielee]

my dears,
this has been going round and round my head while i couldn't post due to a bad built-in-mouse which may keep me away for a while soon.
no maliciousness!
and yet i almost jokingly posted, "gee, thanks for bursting my fantasy!"
is it only play then? should we than all just hang it up then if it isn't real?
this issue calls me on my fantasy, for i insist on recognizing things as they are. i have an x and a y chromosome, no matter what else, i can't change that, much as i wish i could. and, i think "facing reality" is probably a sore or even a weak point among many of us here...
but also, i feel wrong gendered, i perceive myself as female (yes, sure, a mix)
so i perceive myself as right when dressed. i'm in such a deep male disguise, it extends to the cellular level!
implied/labeled a "fake female?" been called worse. at least this dressing is intentional, what i set out to do. trying to be a normal boy on the playground, not fitting in, failing, being called all manner of names, that stung.
its no fetish. if i have to lose all the dressing tomorrow, the epiphany has been revealed. healing is begun. i can be as girly as i need even without dressing.
so there's no insult, i am who i am, even if the "am" is twofold.
i am insisting on a deeper reality than mere appearances, even under an electron microscope. not trying to get metaphysical, but this feels more real, just at a different level.
head in the clouds,
jessie

[Joy Carter]

Too answer your thread............................................ ...........SO ! :D

[TxKimberly]

The way i see it, there is no doubt that Marani is correct.
I think more than a few people don't have their feet planted on the ground. They have sort of a fantasy life and they get upset or mad as hell when the world wont conform to their fantasy.
I get out a lot these days, and every single time I interact with someone face to face I am read. From five or ten feet away I'm OK, face to face and talking to you, your going to know I'm a male. The very vast majority of the people I have interacted with have been fine and treated me well. Some of those that have treated me well DID refer to me as Sir but I see no point in getting angry about it. A bit bummed that I didn't hit the home run, yeah, mad at these people, no.
And like I said before, I think a lot of people really don't KNOW the appropriate way to refer to us. It seems like common sense to us, but maybe it's not to them. They have been brought up all their lives, that to be polite, you refer to women as Ma'am, and men as Sir. This is a hard fast rule they have lived by all of their lives, so it's hardly surprising this is what they may call us when they figure out we are male. Not everyone out there has encountered one of us before, or read about us, or seen a program on TV that deals with a real Transgender and their issues, and therefore may have no idea that it might be offensive to us to be called Sir when dressed.

Kim

[battybattybats]

There's been a whole bunch of vitriol recently, heaped on deceiving people - but we do what we do because it goes to the core of who we are as people. You only have to look around at the threads to see the pain and unhappiness that causes.. :sad:

Thats a good point.
Regarding crossdressing...
If this was just a hobby we could all quit. If this was just a hobby one purge and it would be done with forever. Therefore it is not a hobby.

If it was a fetish we'd all need to be dressed to enjoy sex and while many get a turn on dressing many find that they enjoy dressing, need to dress, irrespective of turn-ons. Therefore it is not a fetish.

It is like transexuality, so much so that there are blurred lines in between in a lot of cases and it's hard to come up with a strict definition and yet many crossdressers do not feel the need to be 24/7 let alone a desperate need for surgery that some transexuals face.

It is like a sexuality, homosexuals cannot quit being homosexual for example. Yet it is seperate from sexuality as there are plenty of gay crossdressers, plenty of bi crossdressers. We are alike enough, share enough in common, that any gay person who doesn't support crossdressers, and any crossdresser who doesn't support gay people just hasn't thought things through.

It is not an addiction. It does not fulfil the medical criteria for addiction. Your pancreas does not require crossdressing molecules in regular doses. It does not replace a naturally produces neurotransmitter. It isn't even a compulsive disorder of deferrment activity like gambling etc where it is used to self-medicate for loneliness or depression. It could be treated if any of those were the case.

So while we don't know what it is for certain (I suspect that it is a lesser form of partial transexuality of brain development as the brain differences between males and females are very variable and many males have more female brain structures and vice versa. I suspect that is the cause) we do know what it's not.

At the end of the day we like what we do, it's ethical and moral to do what we do, it's our right and freedom to do what we do.

There is a lot of variety amongst crossdressers (and transexuals, drag queens and kings the gender queer and everyone else refferred to as Transgender), there may be more than one cause for these phenomena or they could all be variations, degrees, of the same cause. We need to be supportive of others needs and experiences.

[Nicki B]

The way i see it, there is no doubt that Marani is correct.

Kimberly, by all means say her comments fit you - but you can't say they are appropriate for others?

I hope Genifer will forgive me for quoting a recent comment of hers (here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1230923#post1230923))


I have not ever seen my husband's crossdressing as . . . anything that detracts from the man that he is.
You are making a seemingly innocent statement. Be careful. What he thinks matters more than what you think. I can't begine to guess his situation and how he feels about dressing. He may like detracting from the man he is - sometimes.

This statement, if directed at me would be bothersome. My last GF made a similar remark which made it very clear she saw this as nothing more than a fashion statement. Great for not minding it one bit. It showed how little she understood me. She had not idea how how much more this means to me. To hear my GF say I wasn't girly was the worst put down I could imagine. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.



I get out a lot these days, and every single time I interact with someone face to face I am read. From five or ten feet away I'm OK, face to face and talking to you, your going to know I'm a male. The very vast majority of the people I have interacted with have been fine and treated me well. Some of those that have treated me well DID refer to me as Sir but I see no point in getting angry about it. A bit bummed that I didn't hit the home run, yeah, mad at these people, no.
And like I said before, I think a lot of people really don't KNOW the appropriate way to refer to us. It seems like common sense to us, but maybe it's not to them.

But this thread isn't about that, is it? It's about members in our community (not just Mirani, most of the early posts agreed completely with her) labelling others here - and if there's one thing I've learned, it's NOT to do that.

I'm quite sure no one intended to be malicious - but there is certainly ignorance in comments like 'you're a man because you can't afford a good wig'? :Angry3: I also wonder if some of the GGs who've posted would also agree that they can't be women if they happen to have big hands, or wide shoulders? Why must we define people as only male or female, and why does what sits between their legs have to define them for us? :idontknow:

You don't have to understand why, just be sensitive that telling someone else what they are, in this community, causes more unnecessary hurt than most anything else.

I'm quite sure that if someone had said to the F2Ms here 'stop trying to kid yourselves, you're really just girls in pants' there would have been a riot?



If the one thing that came from this thread was that people didn't say such things in future, then it would have been worthwhile?

Otherwise, it's just yet another sad labels argument - haven't we had enough of those? :sad:

[Sarah Doepner]

Demonic Daughter wrote:
"I was thinking (dangerous, I know) about this post last night and thought about something Calpernia Addams said.

She stated in her video "Bad Questions to ask a Transexual" that being asked "Are you a tranny?" really isn't a question but the person basically stating "you haven't fooled me". As Calpernia said, its as if they are trying to put you "back into your place" (i.e. "society's" version thereof).

I think that would be far more upsetting in light of being called a "man in a dress" because then it would be a true insult. It would be someone attempting to make sure you didn't think you were something you were not."

The thought of someone who is a stranger to me wanting to put me "back in my place" is insulting. And it's an insult because they don't know what my place is. What they want is to put me back in "their place", or put their world back in order by changing me rather than accepting a wider reality.

[crusadergirl]

I didn't take it as an insult that she said we are just a man in a dress. I was really just mad b/c i have seen this type of post before and it seemed it was done to hurt others. Now thats just what i thought.
I for one am not a man in a dress i'm just me. Labels like that are a waste of time. Its kinda boring to be called a man in a dress, why can't we be called by the name we use.
My name is Kirra nice talking to all of you.

[Kieron Andrew]

I'm quite sure that if someone had said to the F2Ms here 'stop trying to kid yourselves, you're really just girls in pants' there would have been a riot?
Yes most probably lol...there have been a few rants of this nature already and that has been simply pronoun problems...if someone outright said that to me i personally would have a huge problem with that

I really dont see why people are having such a problem understanding what Nicki is trying to say here, i believe all she is asking is....Please dont give other people labels, its for themselves to define themselves not others,...fine if people want to adopt a label themselves and share that with others, but dont assume everyone else will like the label you assign them yourself...and the reason she is saying this is because defining someone else 'can' cause upset and be very hurtful mentally, even if it is your SO you can still hurt someone..not everyone is the same so will not always adopt the same label.....PS i really hate these labels debates! lol

[Claire3]

Hey,were all differant and have varying qualities of life.I really like the thread,lots of unanswered questions i guess.Im Claire and ok with me,im thinking thats what really counts.:)XXX

[kittypw GG]

Thats a good point.

If it was a fetish we'd all need to be dressed to enjoy sex and while many get a turn on dressing many find that they enjoy dressing, need to dress, irrespective of turn-ons. Therefore it is not a fetish

It is not an addiction. It does not fulfil the medical criteria for addiction. Your pancreas does not require crossdressing molecules in regular doses. It does not replace a naturally produces neurotransmitter. It isn't even a compulsive disorder of deferrment activity like gambling etc where it is used to self-medicate for loneliness or depression. It could be treated if any of those were the case.

There is a lot of variety amongst crossdressers (and transexuals, drag queens and kings the gender queer and everyone else refferred to as Transgender), there may be more than one cause for these phenomena or they could all be variations, degrees, of the same cause. We need to be supportive of others needs and experiences.

Batty I can't agree with a few of your points.

For some it is a fetish and sex can't hapen without either dressing or thinking of it. Many can't function in real life. Some only barely tolerate general life because it is an intrusion of their need to crossdress. This also over laps with the obsession and compulsive behavior. I find many crossdressers in this catagory and qite frankly out of touch with reality and real life in general. Many practice self destrutive behavior. There seems to be an addiction element in there in my eyes. Crossdressing has certainly taken up the living of a healthy lifstyle for some. (and I am talking about healthy behavior which is not self destructive and healthy thinking that is grounded in reality)

Sometimes it is also not possible to cure compulsive and obsessive behavior. Sure there is treatment but many are not cured so you have not convinced me that crossdressing is not a compulsive or obsessive disorder for at least
some.

The only thing I can agree with you on is that there is a lot of variety and not everyone can be painted with the same brush.

In my opinion it is healthy thinking to accept certain truths about ones self and work with what you have. Blaming everything on society and other people being closed minded is not helpful.

I have always said that if you are happy with yourself you will present a positive body language and people will respond to that regardless of wether or not they know you are a man in a dress.

Kitty

[Nicki B]

Many can't function in real life.

Kitty, how many of us have you met, IRL? :strugglin

[Maria2004]

However, I stand by my FIRST post which started the thread.

As in many areas of life, people hold differing views. C'est la vie!

And I'd like to continue standing with you. I know you were only speaking for yourself and when I agreed I was only speaking for myself, not the community as a whole but the that slice of us in similar circumstances dealing with this in our own ways unique to our personal situation.

My favorite and prettiest dresses are the ones I made myself, or had custom made to my own measurements, buying off the rack dresses cut to some type of average proportion can be hit or miss, even though the label says size 8, some don't fit quite right and some will go on my body like they were custom made just for me.

[Nicki B]

I know you were only speaking for yourself


..But we ARE guys in dresses .... it is not an insult .. its the truth!

..I didn/t mean this to sound harsh or a criticism of anyone here. I am making a general statement that:
1) because we ARE built differently,
2) because we might not be able to afford a really good wig,
3) because we have big feet and big hands
4) because we have broader shoulders, thicker arms,
5) because we have a waist in the wrong place and quite often boobs that are too big and too high ....
6) because our makeup skills may be lacking at times
7) because (add your own here .... )

..Some of us are blessed with enough money to buy well, makeup skills honed over time, a figure to die for and a femme demeanour. Most if us aren't.

I just feel we might do better as crossdressers to be happy to be happy whilst dressed. To enjoy feeling womanly or feminine. To sometimes look in a mirror and feel good about ourselves - but to be Ok about the fact we are "guys in dresses and ... so what!

Was Mirani really just speaking for herself?

Perhaps she might clarify..

[sandra-leigh]

Many can't function in real life. Some only barely tolerate general life because it is an intrusion of their need to crossdress. This also over laps with the obsession and compulsive behavior. I find many crossdressers in this catagory and qite frankly out of touch with reality and real life in general. Many practice self destrutive behavior. There seems to be an addiction element in there in my eyes. Crossdressing has certainly taken up the living of a healthy lifstyle for some. (and I am talking about healthy behavior which is not self destructive and healthy thinking that is grounded in reality)


There's not a lot we can say about that, as you use quantifiers such as "many" and "some" that are completely unspecific as to absolute numbers or percentages. "Many" could be "two", and "some" could be "one", and your paragraph could then be correct.

I can't say that I know quite what you mean by "healthy behavior" and "healthy thinking".

What I can say is this: I used to be pretty much an "all work and no play" kind of person. No, not what you would call a "Type A personality": the only person I really competed with was myself, always trying to do my work thoroughly, and always taking responsibility for making sure everything got done (or at least considered in detail). I typically worked 65-100 hours a week in a high stress job, and I didn't socialize very much. About 5 years ago, it caught up with me and I burned out: my body passed its stress limit and things went haywire. (For someone different, the result might have been a heart attack, but fortunately I have a strong heart.)

It wasn't until -after- I burned out and started to recover that I took up crossdressing. It turned out that crossdressing acted as a natural tranquillizer for me: I could plan around it when I had trouble planning other things, and when I went out crossdressed, my mind would clear up from its normal fuzzy state and I could enjoy myself -- much better medication than the drugs that were slowly restoring me. Without crossdressing, I could barely leave the house much of the time; with crossdressing, I could go out and socialize.

So which behavior is the "self-destructive" behavior? Spending my life "in the real world" concentrating hard on a high-stress job with little socializing -- or taking it easier, and spending some time on me, and getting out, and talking to people, and socializing?

[Maria2004]

Was Mirani really just speaking for herself?

Perhaps she might clarify..

She did, in the very first sentence, "So these are my thoughts"

How much more clarification do you need? And the "WE" I took as referring to those of us that had already been discussing this issue amongst ourselves, before she posted her "own" thoughts on the matter.

[battybattybats]

Batty I can't agree with a few of your points.

For some it is a fetish and sex can't hapen without either dressing or thinking of it. Many can't function in real life. Some only barely tolerate general life because it is an intrusion of their need to crossdress. This also over laps with the obsession and compulsive behavior. I find many crossdressers in this catagory and qite frankly out of touch with reality and real life in general. Many practice self destrutive behavior. There seems to be an addiction element in there in my eyes. Crossdressing has certainly taken up the living of a healthy lifstyle for some. (and I am talking about healthy behavior which is not self destructive and healthy thinking that is grounded in reality)

Sometimes it is also not possible to cure compulsive and obsessive behavior. Sure there is treatment but many are not cured so you have not convinced me that crossdressing is not a compulsive or obsessive disorder for at least
some.


While some people who crossdress may indeed have a sexual fetish the evidence I've seen shows that it is not an intrinsic trait of the crossdressing phenomena. Also one might be unsurprised were a transexual (even one unsure or unknowing that they are transexual) to require some degree of dressing/expression to enjoy sex either.

Obsessive compulsive disorder can occur to crossdressers sure, and the behaviour can be focused on the crossdressing. But it's really not caused by the crossdressing, just someone who is both a crossdresser and someone who also has ocd at the same time. Plenty of ocd sufferers have just one facet of their life associated with the disorder but that doesn't mean having e.g. dirty hands causes or is remotely related to ocd.

Also crossdressing being exciting, relaxing and enjoyable is a prime candidate to become a defferment activity. I learned about these in an interesting psychology radio story on why there is no such thing as sex addiction, porn addiction, internet addiction, game addiction and a variety of other nonsense. People may obsessively go through these activities yes, but the activities are not addictive. Instead people with substantial unresolved issues like depression, loneliness, PTSD and a host of other serious problems will perform an activity which allows the to deffer dealing with the problem, often something quite enjoyable, until they become unable to deal with life without regularly using that activity. Trying to treat the symptom, the apparent addiction, results in other problems developing. The only solution is identifying and treating the actual cause which when done successfully allows the person to return to normal life.

So while for some it could indeed be a fetish for most (AFAIK) it is not merely sexual. While some may have OCD I doubt most do and are just fullfilling a vital personal need. While for some it may be a defferment activity it is not of itself addictive and this is a sign of other likely suppressed or even repressed psychological issues.

[Billie Jean]

I am a man who likes to wear a dress and heels and all the frillies that are involved. Billie Jean

[shirley1]

this is dificult for me too explain caus i'm not very good at writing my thoughts down (unlike most that find it easier) but i'll try - for me cding started at around 13 then at the onset of puberty i automatically thought it must be just a sexual thing - after being caught out and branded by my mom at 14 - i could no longer take the risk of being caught again ! subsequently i had to refrain for 15 years until i finally left my parental home - during that time i think it was a fantasy thing for me - i had no choice ! i coudlnt sit and relax en femme !

the one things thats alway run parallel for me is i both fancy women and in a way wish i could be them (even if it were only for a day) i doubt i'll ever go as far as too transition but for me i want to get as close to womenhood at times as i possibly can - be seen as a gg - have those feminine feelings if possible - i envy women every single day i walk down the road these days but at the same time i am still not unhappy with who i am as a person in drab

does that make any sense to anyone !

[jasmine57]

I agree with you Mirani. We are men in dresses And I enjoy being just that.

[Nicki B]

does that make any sense to anyone !

Mmm.. :)


We are men in dresses

Not all of us?



:wall:

[battybattybats]

Not all of us?



:wall:

You can lead someone to knowledge,
but you can't make them think.

:hugs:

As for the subject in general please try and think people.

Some of us are men in dresses. Some of us that comment in this section are women in pants. Some of us are women in mens bodies in dresses. Some are men in womens bodies in pants. Some are both men and women alternatly or simulataneously in mens or womens bodies in all manner of clothing. Some aren't sure what they are!

To everyone but the first group the statement that we are all men in dresses is likely to or at the very least rather possibly going to offend.

[docrobbysherry]

Batty I can't agree with a few of your points.

For some it is a fetish and sex can't hapen without either dressing or thinking of it. Many can't function in real life. Some only barely tolerate general life because it is an intrusion of their need to crossdress. This also over laps with the obsession and compulsive behavior. I find many crossdressers in this catagory and qite frankly out of touch with reality and real life in general. Many practice self destrutive behavior. There seems to be an addiction element in there in my eyes. Crossdressing has certainly taken up the living of a healthy lifstyle for some. (and I am talking about healthy behavior which is not self destructive and healthy thinking that is grounded in reality)

Sometimes it is also not possible to cure compulsive and obsessive behavior. Sure there is treatment but many are not cured so you have not convinced me that crossdressing is not a compulsive or obsessive disorder for at least
some.

The only thing I can agree with you on is that there is a lot of variety and not everyone can be painted with the same brush.

In my opinion it is healthy thinking to accept certain truths about ones self and work with what you have. Blaming everything on society and other people being closed minded is not helpful.

I have always said that if you are happy with yourself you will present a positive body language and people will respond to that regardless of wether or not they know you are a man in a dress.

Kitty


While some people who crossdress may indeed have a sexual fetish the evidence I've seen shows that it is not an intrinsic trait of the crossdressing phenomena. Also one might be unsurprised were a transexual (even one unsure or unknowing that they are transexual) to require some degree of dressing/expression to enjoy sex either.

Obsessive compulsive disorder can occur to crossdressers sure, and the behaviour can be focused on the crossdressing. But it's really not caused by the crossdressing, just someone who is both a crossdresser and someone who also has ocd at the same time. Plenty of ocd sufferers have just one facet of their life associated with the disorder but that doesn't mean having e.g. dirty hands causes or is remotely related to ocd.

Also crossdressing being exciting, relaxing and enjoyable is a prime candidate to become a defferment activity. I learned about these in an interesting psychology radio story on why there is no such thing as sex addiction, porn addiction, internet addiction, game addiction and a variety of other nonsense. People may obsessively go through these activities yes, but the activities are not addictive. Instead people with substantial unresolved issues like depression, loneliness, PTSD and a host of other serious problems will perform an activity which allows the to deffer dealing with the problem, often something quite enjoyable, until they become unable to deal with life without regularly using that activity. Trying to treat the symptom, the apparent addiction, results in other problems developing. The only solution is identifying and treating the actual cause which when done successfully allows the person to return to normal life.

So while for some it could indeed be a fetish for most (AFAIK) it is not merely sexual. While some may have OCD I doubt most do and are just fullfilling a vital personal need. While for some it may be a defferment activity it is not of itself addictive and this is a sign of other likely suppressed or even repressed psychological issues.

It feels like both of u r talking about me. To some degree, u r BOTH correct. I've been trying to figure out WHAT I am since discovering Cd.com 6 months ago. Every time I read a new post/thread I exclaim, " So that's what I am".

Cding for me is certainly, PARTIALLY a fetish hobby. It has also become a compulsion for me. But I've NOT shown to be ocd regarding anything else my whole life.

Batty, u may be rite, that it is a deferment activity for me. Possibly a replacement for the SO missing in my life!

However, I HAVE learned one thing FOR SURE here. I'm definitely NOT the average CD bear. If there even IS such an animal!

Maybe for every single separate description of what a CD is, there is AT LEAST one Cd here that it fits. Think about that for awhile!

[Carly D.]

I agree with your thread; most of us are men in a dress. Most of us are not really fooling anybody because several of us are over 6' tall and over 200 lbs. Like you said, we have size 13 or 14 women's shoes and can palm a basketball. Our arms are longer and more muscular; did you know that the distance from your elbow to your wrist is the length of your foot? Talk about a giveaway! Because we are women at heart, we want to communicate with people and talk and share ideas about a multitude of topics other than sports but when we open our mouths, we give ourselves away. I am not being cynical but real.

I have been out several times in daylight wearing women's clothing without a wig or make up. I am not trying to fool anyone but I am trying in a small way to demonstrate that I like wearing women's clothing and not trying to hide who I am. When I share with other CD's that I do this, I don't get any comments but their silence speaks volumes about their disapproval. Like I said another time; women who dress as men don't try to hide their gender and they are accepted. When I dress, I sometimes too, don't want to hide my gender because when you come down to it, I really can't do it.

When I go out with other CD's, I do try to present myself as a woman, I would never try to jeopordize the other ladies but when I go out to get my nails done or get my arms or chest waxed, I present myself differently.

RIGHT ON!!! I've been saying this all along and feel like.. well women get to wear what they want anywhere they want to, and men have to crossdress in private or only come out at night.. women don't have to worry about their sisters calling them "fags" for expressing how they feel in fashion.. but men try this and the "brothers" are all quick to react to our individualism as being gay.. such a double standard.. I would love to just go out wearing what I want to wear..

[Fab Karen]

Batty I can't agree with a few of your points.

For some it is a fetish and sex can't hapen without either dressing or thinking of it. Many can't function in real life. Some only barely tolerate general life because it is an intrusion of their need to crossdress. This also over laps with the obsession and compulsive behavior. I find many crossdressers in this catagory and qite frankly out of touch with reality and real life in general. Many practice self destrutive behavior. There seems to be an addiction element in there in my eyes. Crossdressing has certainly taken up the living of a healthy lifstyle for some. (and I am talking about healthy behavior which is not self destructive and healthy thinking that is grounded in reality)



Kitty
The self-destructive people you have known do not define CD's in general. Also "grounded in reality" would depend on your definition of reality. There are some people in this country still for example that consider a girl getting married & having babies as her destiny, calling it "reality."

[Sissy_Audrey]

First, i'd like to start by saying, good post.

However, not to be critical, but you must understand, to some being "a man in a dress" can be rather dishearting, and even insulting. Some feel as though we want to be/should be/are Girls who have the unfortunate luck of have the body of a Male. From my perspective, being a "guy in a dress" is rather depressing. There is this ideal of myself i have, a feeling of what i really want to be, but knowing there is no real way of being a biological girl. Dressing is the closest thing i have, and when it all just boils down to just a guy in a dress, yes, it hurts.

This is my own perspective, and by no means am i speaking for the masses :) I'd just like to offer another point of view on that subject.

Thank you,
Audrey