Is it the estrogen?

[AmberTG]

This has probably been discussed before, but I did something today that really made me think about this question. The question is, does estrogen affect the brain of a MTF transsexual after they start taking it, causing a shift in thoughts and actions?
My personal experience, looked at from the outside, would seem to indicate that it does. However, when I look more closely, I'm not so sure about just how much effect it has.
I'll explain, I was at the grocery store today to buy breakfast, "long john" donuts, fat food, if you will, (I'm trying to grow a butt) and I thought they were out because I didn't see them right away. They were hiding on me! :-) Anyway, when I saw them, I expressed my joy in a girl-like way, not even realizing right away that I did it in front of several customers. (I was in guy mode) When I realized what I had done, I just had to laugh. This has been happening a lot lately, too.
So, is it the estrogen effecting my brain, or is it just my natural, formerly surpressed personality coming out from behind the now crumbling shield of "manliness"?
I suspect that our natural personality has as much to do with the mental changes as the estrogen does. I think that starting transition and starting hormones unlocks something in the brain that always held us back from being ourselves in the past. What's your opinion?

Does Testosterone do something like that to the MTFs who take it?

Of course, it could just be that I sometimes feel like a big kid and that probably shows too. Anyway, it sure is fun!

[Valeria]

I'm pretty certain that girly gestures (and the like) are primarily behaviors acquired through socialization. IMO, neither estrogen nor testosterone are likely to directly alter your mannerisms in the way you've described.

It is more likely that what is happening is that you are starting to think of yourself more as a woman, and thus your subconscious mind is starting to emulate mannerisms that you associate with being female.

[Dalece]

I'm not shure if it is the estrogen, but I know when I'm out either in drad or dressed I still have girlish gestures. I try to control them in drab and let them go when dresssed. right now taking breast treatment and have noticed some changes in me beside larger breasts. So there might be something that is bringing up the estrogen level.

[Fi Fi Fiona]

I'm pretty certain that girly gestures (and the like) are primarily behaviors acquired through socialization. IMO, neither estrogen nor testosterone are likely to directly alter your mannerisms in the way you've described.


Bingo. Your feeling more confidant and expressing yourself more openly.

From what i've heard on multiple accounts, they effect emotional highs and lows. But they could also affect they way we percieve things. But as this is extremely hard to prove, I would remain sceptical of anything :3

All my Love -KuroRozu-

[Lucy Bright]

I'm pretty certain that girly gestures (and the like) are primarily behaviors acquired through socialization. IMO, neither estrogen nor testosterone are likely to directly alter your mannerisms in the way you've described.

It is more likely that what is happening is that you are starting to think of yourself more as a woman, and thus your subconscious mind is starting to emulate mannerisms that you associate with being female.

I'm sure that's right. Reminds me of a children's book I read recently, *Marvin Redpost: Is He a Girl?* by Louis Sachar. The ending's disappointing, but up to that point it's a really insightful story about, in effect, the experience of being TG, and wondering what you "really" are. I recommend it!

Kisses,

Lucy

[tamarav]

Could just be a sugar "anticipation" rush. Remember eating stuff like that and wishing where the fat goes doen't work for beans. I have been wishing for fat deposition in certain areas for years and it just won't happen.

Let me know when you can target the fat. I ended up losing 95 pounds of mine to look better.

Your sis,

Tami

[SirTrey]

Does Testosterone do something like that to the MTFs who take it?
For FTM's who take testosterone, it does give us a tendency to be a little more short tempered at times, and somewhat more aggressive....That doesn't always happen, and, in some ways, it actually mellows Me out....but initial reactions are different....I am overall more laid back, but in that moment when something really irks Me, I can feel My blood pressure go through the roof....and I'm sure that does affect behaviors.

[Mariah]

when the mind get's the right hormoin it works better :)

kind of like putting water in your gas tank instead of gas your car does not run so well, put gas in it runs lot better and works great *^_^*

read "the female mind" it's really helpful to understand the diffrents in the male and female mind.

keris

[Joy Carter]

I spoke with a girl who has been on estrogen, for four years, Besides physical changes, she says there has been no changes in her brain. She did say she is much happier now days. But I don't think the estrogen it self has anything to do with that. Some where I read that there were permanent brain changes. The artical didn't go into any detail. I'd really like to see some hard research on this issue.

[MarciManseau]

I'm much more emotional since I began taking hormones, and Julie says I'm more even tempered. All good things! :battingeyelashes:


Hugs, Marci :hugs:

[MJ]

I'm much more emotional since I began taking hormones, and Julie says I'm more even tempered. All good things! :battingeyelashes:


Hugs, Marci :hugs:


yes i can add to that as i am very emotional thanks to the estrogen . that was very hard for me as it's just not British to show emotion.
to prove it just come off the estrogen for 3 days .......you'll see what i mean

[Cai]

I'd imagine it's comfort and confidence in yourself. You already have those feminine behaviors, but now they're coming to the surface.

I haven't started taking T yet, but I have noticed that I tend to sit and carry myself in a more masculine fashion than I used to, probably because I'm allowing myself to do so.

[Pamela Julie]

All hormones affect our emotions, sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way, mostly in a neutral way. Your physical reaction was most likely through a learned behavior, with the hormone possibly affecting your mind in a way that allowed you to so, not caused you to do so. The peacefulness many on hrt feel, both mtf and ftm, may be caused by a correction in hormone balance from what we were born with to what our mental gender feels is normal. In any case you are transitioning and should feel good that your physical actions are getting in line with your goals.

[kerrianna]

So, is it the estrogen effecting my brain, or is it just my natural, formerly surpressed personality coming out from behind the now crumbling shield of "manliness"?
I suspect that our natural personality has as much to do with the mental changes as the estrogen does. I think that starting transition and starting hormones unlocks something in the brain that always held us back from being ourselves in the past. What's your opinion?


I think you answered your own question.

I think that the biggest change we ever make is when we decide we CAN be ourselves, and that we are worth it. THAT'S the key that unlocks everything else, and yes, most of the real treasure we hold has been buried under years of denial, shame, hiding, abuse, etc etc....

What you heard was your REAL voice. You're allowing yourself to be free, and losing self consciousness... although the fact you recognized it shows you're still getting used to who you really are. It does take time to melt off those layers of wax coating over our beautiful selves.

Uhhh... long john donuts are NOT a healthy way to put on weight. You don't want to have a coronary just as you finally get to be you. But they are yummy. Just don't eat too many, 'k? :naughty

[Stephanie Anne]

Acceptance is far more powerful than chemicals and hormones.

Granted if you are like me you do get a tad moody every so often but that's about it.

and if estrogen makes you act like a little girl then I must have had a hidden reserve growning up that was released upon being in close contact with spiders and ticks because i shriek like a teenager in a slasher movie when i have one on me.

[Maggie Kay]

This has been a subject of great interest to me. I have been on HRT of sorts for years and over that time I have noticed some dramatic changes. I used to be very interested in war movies and violent video games. That really went away and now I can really appreciate chick flicks. I found that my ability for detail work vastly improved. So much so that I was able to begin learning CAD when before I could not have the patience for it at all. I am much more empathetic and caring towards others but I always had a lot of that. I did find that my ability to know where my car is while I parallel park got worse. I am not as confident driving and don't have that boundless enthusiasm to fix things like I used to. AND I love to talk and write when before I was mostly quiet. I also started writing short stories and am planning to write a novel. Just yesterday, I was playing a video game on my Xbox and I noticed that I didn't need to change the controller invert the Y axis like I used to do. I was an avid gamer but dropped it as I lost interest almost overnight. This new game was Myst V which is puzzle based and I love those now. Before, I hated the puzzles.

Now some of these things are because I am happier and more comfortable with myself but there is some rewiring going on. I do find myself with female mannerisms too but I suspect that it is as others say that I am doing it from social reasons. One thing is for sure, I no longer have to stop myself from doing them like I used to in male mode.

[Badwolf]

If the hormones affected anything it was that it slightly altered your emotions or the way you react to them but all of these feelings were there all ready. :)

[AmberTG]

Hey, thanks for all the replies to this thread! I appreciate all the comments. I think it's a pretty good guess that a lot of the things we do after starting on HRT are simply because we're more comfortable with ourselves and allow certain behaviors that we used to try to hide. I think that hormones can have an effect on our emotional responses, but maybe not as much as we think they do. It's probably true also that we pick up some of the behaviors from other people, after all, that's how we learn as kids.

[Crystal Jade]

All I know is that the longer I am on hormones the more I notice the dumb things guys do and say! lol

[Scotty]

All I know is that the longer I am on hormones the more I notice the dumb things guys do and say! lol

I noticed a LOT of things being on estrogen.

A female friend once told another friend of mine "He thinks too much like a girl". Kind of caught me off guard but I liked it, even if it wasn't meant in the context I wanted to hear it :)

[Nicki B]

My personal experience, looked at from the outside, would seem to indicate that it does. However, when I look more closely, I'm not so sure about just how much effect it has.

Why wouldn't it? :strugglin Friends of mine talk about getting weepy much more easily - and there is also a widespread opinion that they suddenly find parking in a tight slot and reversing more difficult? That doesn't sound like socialisation, to me..

Hormones are very powerful chemicals - their purpose is to change the body, why wouldn't they affect the brain???

[Valeria]

Why wouldn't it? :strugglin Friends of mine talk about getting weepy much more easily - and there is also a widespread opinion that they suddenly find parking in a tight slot and reversing more difficult? That doesn't sound like socialisation, to me..

Hormones are very powerful chemicals - their purpose is to change the body, why wouldn't they affect the brain???
Being more "weepy" is partially both. Estrogen and progesterone can affect emotions, though repressing certain emotions is absolutely also related to socialization (which is why men in some cultures are more emotionally repressed than others).

OTOH, I'd be willing to bet large amounts of money that in a double-blind controlled study, we'd find that suddenly finding "parking in a tight slot and reversing more difficult" was a complete crock. That's just gender stereotyping.

Lots of people ascribe lots of effects to starting hormones (like "switching" sexual orientation), but that doesn't mean they are correct in assigning causality. Over the years, I've seen all kinds of absurd claims about what taking hormones has "caused" someone to start doing. In some cases, like suddenly getting "bad at math" or "bad at driving", or suddenly deciding they like men, I'm pretty certain it's not the hormones.

It's not estrogen that causes women to cross their legs differently than men (on average). It's partially anatomical differences in the hips and knees (which causes different positions to be more comfortable), and partially socialization (girls being encouraged to sit "ladylike", and boys being mocked for looking too girlish). The same factors contribute to different walking styles (as does having a differently located center of gravity). Yet, I've seen people claim that taking a single estrogen pill caused them to start walking differently. Piffle.

There are some neurological differences between males and females, that contribute to differences in things like spacial skills - but I've seen absolutely no evidence that starting hormones will quickly remap the brain in this respect. Most gender traits (such as being more assertive or more empathetic) are considered to be mostly a result of socialization by prevailing theories. And lots of gendered mannerisms are culturally specific. So none of that stuff is going to get magically altered by taking hormones - though taking hormones may be the step necessary to get a person's subconcious to allow them to express themselves in a manner more consistent with the gender with which they identify.

[GypsyKaren]

there is also a widespread opinion that they suddenly find parking in a tight slot and reversing more difficult?

I must have gotten a bad batch of estrogen because I can still park a car, as can every woman I know, must be something in the water with them.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Maggie Kay]

I think that some of the effects like parking etc come only after years of hormone therapy as the brain adapts. My daughter has real problems parking but I didn't until a few years into estrogen. It is not that I can't do it, it is that I don't feel confident about it anymore.

[Cai]

I think that some of the effects like parking etc come only after years of hormone therapy as the brain adapts. My daughter has real problems parking but I didn't until a few years into estrogen. It is not that I can't do it, it is that I don't feel confident about it anymore.

That's not estrogen, that's confidence. I've got 21 years of estrogen in my system, and I can park a car just fine, tyvm.

[Valeria]

That's not estrogen, that's confidence. I've got 21 years of estrogen in my system, and I can park a car just fine, tyvm.
Yes!

My life partner has several decades of estrogen in her body, but she's actually better than me (read: more confident) at backing up the car in a really long or complicated driveway - and always has been, even before I started hormones.

I'm fighting to restrain myself from feminist rhetoric in this thread, but the concept that women can't park isn't one I'm fond of...

[Nicki B]

I didn't say having oestrogen in your system means you can't park a car? I said there is a lot of anecdotal evidence from people who are taking hormones that they perceive a change in their ability - just as they perceive a change in their ability to lift heavy weights...

I don't see those who are in the process of becoming full time women as having a misogynist axe to grind? :strugglin But they have experienced both states..

[Valeria]

I didn't say having oestrogen in your system means you can't park a car? I said there is a lot of anecdotal evidence from people who are taking hormones that they perceive a change in their ability - just as they perceive a change in their ability to lift heavy weights...
There is a lot of "anecdotal evidence" to the contrary, also. I even know of multiple women who race cars after having transitioned, and I'm far from along in thinking this is poppycock. I'd say that this change is *far* from being universally accepted as valid.

Also, "anecdotal evidence" is a little bit of an oxymoron.


I don't see those who are in the process of becoming full time women as having a misogynist axe to grind? :strugglin
I've seen plenty of evidence of internalized misogyny from people who are trans - just as you can find internalized transphobia amongst trans people. and internalized homophobia amongst homosexual people. There are misogynistic posts made in the MTF section of this forum on a regular basis. It happens. People are partly a product of their socialization, and we live in a sexist society.

Even a lot of cisgendered females have internalized patriarchal attitudes. Why would trans females be immune?

[Nicki B]

I'd say that this change is *far* from being universally accepted as valid.

Well, certainly we are all different - but I'm simply reporting what quite a few people have said to me. And indeed there is a post on this thread to the same opinion?


I've seen plenty of evidence of internalized misogyny from people who are trans - just as you can find internalized transphobia amongst trans people. and internalized homophobia amongst homosexual people. There are misogynistic posts made in the MTF section of this forum on a regular basis. It happens. People are partly a product of their socialization, and we live in a sexist society.

Even a lot of cisgendered females have internalized patriarchal attitudes. Why would trans females be immune?

Indeed. But I certainly know girls (well into double figures) who have been surprised to notice a change in themselves. I would also describe most of them as committed feminists (one thing transitioning surely teaches you is how to fight? :) ).

One of them is now a driving instructor - another was a police Class 1 pursuit driver, so they ought to know what they are talking about?

I think this is just down to YMMV. But I do think observations from those of us who cross the gender divide are useful?


And if anyone really thinks I am being misogynistic, then I stand by my previous posts here - please feel free to point out where my bias is evident???


Edit - does anyone disagree with my linked comment that the ability to lift weights changes, or is that also evidence of misogyny?

[GypsyKaren]

The only "anecdotal evidence" I see in women who have transitioned is sore necks, we get that from shaking our heads at some of the sheer and utter nonsense we see...gotta run, I have to get the guy next door to pull my car in the garage for me.

Karen Starlene :star:

[MJ]

and there is also a widespread opinion that they suddenly find parking in a tight slot and reversing more difficult?



I must have gotten a bad batch of estrogen because I can still park a car, as can every woman I know, must be something in the water with them.:




Yes! My life partner has several decades of estrogen in her body, but she's actually better than me (read: more confident) at backing up the car in a really long or complicated driveway - and always has been, even before I started hormones..

well you see i don't drive anymore lol can't go forward let alone backwards .and if it were bumper cars i'll do just fine . :tongueout

[Cai]

Edit - does anyone disagree with my linked comment that the ability to lift weights changes, or is that also evidence of misogyny?

That's a physical ability - muscle. Which is scientifically proven to be affected by estrogen. The ability to do things like mathematics or backing up a car has never been proven to have anything to do with hormones - that's socialisation.

[MJ]

Edit - does anyone disagree with my linked comment that the ability to lift weights changes, or is that also evidence of misogyny?


No thats true i lost muscle mass . i was up at my friends farm and i went to help him move 80 pound bags of feed and i could not lift it . i had to drag the bag around .
i was in shock after . 80 pound bag wow

[Scotty]

I have gained some strength back in both martial arts and golf...

I'll ride the summer out off HRT, then go back and get blood work and pick back up slowly for the winter....

[KrazyKat]

Hmmm, if I might add from a GG's self observations, being just one person in many.

I've never taken Testosterone and blood testing has shown my hormone levels to be in normal ranges for a female.

I was always in accelerated Math classes, only girl usually.

I can parrallel park a full size van on Chicago one-way streets on the left side, in the first try.(Because I paid attention when Dad taught me many years ago)

I can land a Cessna 152 on the threshold almost everytime.(Because I paid attention to my instructor)

Sorry, I'm not bragging about my abilities, but some things come from a confidence within, good instruction, and lots of practice. IMHO these things don't have anything to do with hormones, more like the desire and focus to do such things.:D

[AmberTG]

KrazyKat, you can fly?! Now I'm jealous! I always wanted to learn to fly a plane!
I have found that, after a year on hormones, I too have lost some strength, which I didn't have a lot of to begin with. I really have a struggle with 50 lb rabbit food bags now and I've lost a bit of hand strength also.
My emotional state is pretty good right now, but I don't have a bunch of drama in my life right now either.
Some recent research has found signs that the brain does change physically in some small ways due to putting estrogen in a male body, but there's no long term studies that I'm aware of.

[KrazyKat]

:daydreaming:Yup, Amber, but sadly no money to do so for awhile!!

Ladies, you know that taking Estrogen can affect calcium and bone absorption, so if you are on it for a few years and then go off for awhile, are you a candidate for severe bone loss(osteoporosis)? If this is true, you should be using some light weights regularly to keep your strength!!:hugs:

[Teresa Amina]

80 pound bags of feed and i could not lift it

I've never been able to lift that much weight! It always amazed me at various jobs I've had that they thought I could do such things- "You want me to move what?!" :eek:

[MarciManseau]

No thats true i lost muscle mass . i was up at my friends farm and i went to help him move 80 pound bags of feed and i could not lift it . i had to drag the bag around .
i was in shock after . 80 pound bag wow

Hope you didn't break a nail :)


Smoochies, Marci :hugs:

[Scotty]

I can parrallel park a full size van on Chicago one-way streets on the left side, in the first try.(Because I paid attention when Dad taught me many years ago)

I can land a Cessna 152 on the threshold almost everytime.(Because I paid attention to my instructor)

Sorry, I'm not bragging about my abilities, but some things come from a confidence within, good instruction, and lots of practice. IMHO these things don't have anything to do with hormones, more like the desire and focus to do such things.:D


Definitely agree with you 100%!!!!!!!!!

Paid attention ...key phrase.

I knew a drill sergeant that had a phrase that I remember to this day about paying attention.

You go girl!!

[Sejd]

I admit it, I am a "Green-Trans" who takes natural suplements instead of medicinal hormones. I have done so for over six month now and it has been fantastic. Have I noticed any difference? Yes, I am much more likely to burst into exictement over everyday events. I am more happy, and I feel more free. I understand your outburst in the store. It happens to me too.
hugs
Sejd

[jex111]

I have found that the estrogen brings feelings to the surface but does not really change behaviour. I really try hard to learn girly behaviour so that it appears natural. If the estrogen did it that would have some benefits