"Somewhere in Between"

[Valeria]

These questions arise from several recent threads. I'm sorry that this post takes a while to get to the point - please stick with me while I try to frame my questions/thoughts. :)

I also apologize to those who will perceive this as yet another "labels" thread. I think the issues involved are more significant than that, but in any case, you don't have to read it (so please, no answers saying "I don't care what you call me" - I'll concede in advance that this opinion exists). I think that labels can facilitate meaningful dialogue.

Okay, aside from reading books and journals, pretty much all I know about crossdressers is from this forum. In real life, I know trans females (all of whom are full time and on hormones), trans males (all of whom are full time), a wide variety of lesbians (butch, femme, andro), and a few genderqueer people. I also have a lot of online and long-distance trans female friends from other places (all of my close online friends are full time too). So lots of gender-variant people, but I've never actually known a single crossdresser in person, nor do I currently know anyone who is openly questioning their gender. Also, it's been so long since I was personally questioning my gender that perhaps I don't really remember how it felt to be confused or uncertain. So my perspective may be overly narrow.

For simplicities sake (and because it would add more variables to do otherwise, and because trans men don't like other people speaking for them), I'm going to only look at gender-variant people who were originally male-bodied in this thread.

So here is how I tend to perceive things (subject to reinterpretation):

One category is trans females (or trans women). These women were born with male-appearing genitalia and classified "male" at birth. However, they are mentally female, and eventually they realize it - at which point, those that can generally transition to living as a woman, and most try to correct their bodies to be as female as is feasible. Most people in this category are not particularly enamored with their birth genitals. I fit into this category. My gender identity is completely that of a woman, and at this point in my life (thanks in part to various medical interventions) I consider myself completely female, body and soul.

There is a second category - MTF crossdressers who identify as male. They wish (or even need) to engage in feminine gender expression at times for various reasons. Sexual urges, stress relief, gender role coping... I don't know all the possible reasons, and I think that's a broad enough topic to require a separate thread - so for the sake of discussion, let's just all agree that they have reasons other than gender identity. At least some of the people in this category appear to be quite fond of their birth genitals, though they might wish for a more androgynous or even female-seeming physique to facilitate their crossdressing.

Now I personally consider these two groups to be quite distinct. One group suffers from pre-transition gender dysphoria, sometimes to crippling degrees, and identifies strongly as female. Most people I've known in this category reach a point where potential barriers like losing family and suffering employment discrimination are secondary compared to the emotional costs of continuing to pretend to be the wrong gender. The other group identifies as male, tends to be more interested in gender performance than gender identity, and tends to actually like presenting as a male at least some of the time. There are other differences too, but the point is that the differences are pretty fundamental.

Of these two groups, I think that the phrase "crossdressing" is only applicable to the second group. I have a female identity, and at this point I'm legally and anatomically female. From my perspective, to call me a "crossdresser" for wearing women's clothing is to completely disregard who I am and how I identify.

However, there seems to be at least one more category - those "crossdressers" that suffer from gender dysphoria and dress (at least in part) to alleviate it. People who don't fully identify as male or female, or who (perhaps) are uncertain as to their gender identification. On a recent thread, one member of this forum opined that such people are actually the vast majority of crossdressers. I also have a good friend who is one of the SOs here, and I know she wonders if perhaps all (or most) crossdressers are really just transsexual women in denial.

I wonder if either of those statements are true - that the vast majority of CDs suffer from gender dysphoria similar to that felt by trans females, and that most (if not all) of these people are transsexuals in denial. I also wonder if this group is even properly classified as "crossdressers". I've seen some here describe such people as "TS-leaning crossdressers", but I wonder if "TS-leaning" doesn't rank up there with "a little bit pregnant" as one of the great misnomers of all time. As I would define transsexuality, it isn't really something you can "lean" towards. It may be something you are uncertain about, or afraid to embrace about yourself. But it's hard to be partially TS, from my perspective, just as it's hard to be partially pregnant.

I know that some people go through a phase of identifying as a crossdresser before accepting their transsexuality - presumably these people would all fit into the gender-dysphoric category of crossdressers. Some other trans people consider themselves genderqueer or gay before accepting who they really are. These are all just coping strategies (and there are many others).

So I guess my questions would be:

1) How prevalent are gender-dysphoric "crossdressers" compared to male identified ones?
2) How similar are their feelings to those of trans females?
3) How many gender-dysphoric crossdressers feel they have a blended-gender (a mixture of male and female) or some other non-binary gender (genderqueer, third gendered, non-gendered)?
4) How many gender-dysphoric crossdressers feel they are female gendered, but classifiy themselves as "crossdressers" because they don't believe transition is an option (for whatever reason: fear of losing their family, financial concerns, health concerns, fear of not "passing", fear of not being strong enough, fear of being wrong, etc.)?
4b) In other words, are gender-dysphoric crossdressers mostly just trans women who are unwilling or unable to commit to transition, or do they differ from trans females in some other way?

Now, this isn't a poll (because I have multiple questions), and it probably wouldn't give us a meaningful answer if it were. Also, some of these questions may be impossible for some people to answer. Asking "are you a trans woman in denial?" probably isn't too helpful, I'll admit. But still, these are things I wonder about, and I'd love to see more discussion on them.

Anyway, a lot of sweeping statements get made in this forum about "MTFs" and "crossdressers" - sometimes excluding trans females, sometimes not. It seems to me that while it is clear that trans females and male crossdressers are distinct, it's not clear with whom the gender-dysphoric crossdressers belong. Should they be grouped with trans females or crossdressers? Or are they a distinct group (or collection of groups) of their own? Since people can't seem to resist making blanket statements, I think it'd be nice to understand this a bit more.

Also, I think some of these questions are ones that gender-dysphoric crossdressers probably need to understand about themselves (and I know, some of them already do).

FWIW, I've seen discussion elsewhere as to whether young crossdressers even exist - some young people think that the increasing emergence of trans and genderqueer people has made "crossdressing" (in the classic sense) obsolete. I don't think that's true - but I do think a lot of people who have considered themselves crossdressers for decades might have gone a different direction if they were teenagers now.

Thanks to anyone that read the whole post, and apologies to anyone who feels slighted by how I've grouped people.

[TSchapes]

I have a female identity, and at this point I'm legally and anatomically female. From my perspective, to call me a "crossdresser" for wearing women's clothing is to completely disregard who I am and how I identify.

I'm a crossdresser, I'm assuming you are a transsexual MTF. I want to establish this so I can understand where you are coming from. And if this is true, I can't see why you would be called a crossdresser now. Maybe in the past?

I can only speak for myself and not for other crossdressers. There seems for me to be a tipping point for when you really feel you need to be the other sex all the time. I've thought about sexual re-assignment many years ago. Looked into it, studied it the best I could, and came to the conclusion that no, that's not what I want. I feel my feminine side needs it's outlet, but not at the expense of my male side. I've tried to work on the two gender states and maybe merge them into one. Am I in denial? Maybe. But the bottom line is here: I'm happy with the state I'm in now. Could I be in this third state you talk about, possibly.

But from reading the posts here there seems to be a continuum along this line and it is more analog than digital. More of a flow of divergent paths, and not a ruler with marks on it. I can picture it, just can't describe it.

- Tracy

[battybattybats]

Great questions!



1) How prevalent are gender-dysphoric "crossdressers" compared to male identified ones?

I'm yet to be convinced by the arguments in favour of the notion of 'gender dysphoria' as from what I've heard brain architecture in men that is more feminine than the average female brain architecture and vice versa etc is exceedingly common, so common in fact that the difference between any two random brains of the same sex is likely to be greater than the difference between the average male and average female brains! This suggests to me that gender varience is natural and exceedingly common.

That said I love my male side too but my female expression is very important to me. If I could change my anatomy back and forth at whim I'd be very happy.


2) How similar are their feelings to those of trans females?

I don't know in general, very different from a transexual woman I've known for years.


3) How many gender-dysphoric crossdressers feel they have a blended-gender (a mixture of male and female) or some other non-binary gender (genderqueer, third gendered, non-gendered)?

Me for sure. I tried just being a feminine male and found that I still needed to fully dress, however I don't want to give up my maleness either. Both are important parts of me. Some days I feel I'm definatly female inside, some days definatly male, some days I oscilate back and forth over the course of the day. The latter is most common.


4) How many gender-dysphoric crossdressers feel they are female gendered, but classifiy themselves as "crossdressers" because they don't believe transition is an option (for whatever reason: fear of losing their family, financial concerns, health concerns, fear of not "passing", fear of not being strong enough, fear of being wrong, etc.)?

Definatly not me. I considered it for a time and there are appealing aspects for certain (I'm really upset over my receeding hairline for example) but I'm definatly not desperate for surgery like many transexuals I've known nor ready to give up my maleness.


4b) In other words, are gender-dysphoric crossdressers mostly just trans women who are unwilling or unable to commit to transition, or do they differ from trans females in some other way?

Not me for one.

[kerrianna]

Hmmm...I'm not sure where to start with this Kehleyr. There are some assumptions you make about transitioning that I guess you have more experience than I do, so I'll leave it at that. Well, except that there's kind of a black and whiteness to it that I'm not sure about, but that could be predicated on the label of what TS is in the first place. It seems to be a more cut and dried area of gender identity with likewise cut and dried solutions... which again I wonder if it's that simple. Like I said, you are more in the swim than me, so I can only comment from my own life pretty much.

I do consider that most crossdressers are gender variant or transgendered in the sense that most of their dressing has more to do with altering their psychological state of how they perceive their own selves. They use it to cross gender barriers. Even if sexual or fetishistic, it's about sourcing out the feminine in a lot of cases. That's predicated on some pretty rigid gender role models, that may not exactly hold true as things change. Maybe that's one reason younger people don't define themselves as crossdressers as much. They aren't coming from such rigid boxes in the first place, so the avenues to gender expression are more varied and easily accessible.

And certainly the ability of young people to connect and inform is much better, the medical establishment is way more sophisticated about trans stuff, and the level of permissiveness in society is generally better than it was when I was young for instance. I question where I would have been at by age 25 if I had grown up in today's environment.

Let me see if I can answer the questions:

1) How prevalent are gender-dysphoric "crossdressers" compared to male identified ones?

Don't know. Guess I might be one of them gd cders... although cd is not a term I use for myself anymore. But I did when I first joined this site. But not only did I have no or little knowledge of transexuality, but I really hadn't examined myself in any meaningful way.

2) How similar are their feelings to those of trans females?

I don't know. From what I gather, pretty similar, at least my feelings are. I can't speak for anyone else.

3) How many gender-dysphoric crossdressers feel they have a blended-gender (a mixture of male and female) or some other non-binary gender (genderqueer, third gendered, non-gendered)?

I did before, as a stage of unveiling of myself. It went kind of - CD to DualGender to Transfemale in my own self identification. I keep thinking I can settle into a non-gendered place because that's how I think I've been able to get through life... by downplaying my male gender to the point where gender itself is irrelevant. Because I can see it in others. What I mean is I don't judge others on their gender in so many cases. I am almost genderblind... or I have been in the past, partly because I needed to be genderblind to myself I think. I find that the more I allow myself to gravitate towards one binary end (female) the more gender does matter to me, in everyone else. I'm not entirely happy about that. I think we're better off being less gender seperated. But I feel the way I feel.

4) How many gender-dysphoric crossdressers feel they are female gendered, but classifiy themselves as "crossdressers" because they don't believe transition is an option (for whatever reason: fear of losing their family, financial concerns, health concerns, fear of not "passing", fear of not being strong enough, fear of being wrong, etc.)?

Well, like I said, when I was ignorant to trans-possibility I labelled myself as a crossdresser, because that's what I had heard used to describe people like me. I may not feel that transition is an option (or I should say that it IS, and I choose not to take it), but I would never classify myself as a crossdresser again, knowing what I know about myself. Well, I kind of do call myself a crossdresser... but in the sense of a female who crossdresses and passes as a male in this society. It's a bit facetious, but in some ways seems a more accurate way of seeing myself.

4b) In other words, are gender-dysphoric crossdressers mostly just trans women who are unwilling or unable to commit to transition, or do they differ from trans females in some other way?

Hmmm....maybe. It could be the only way they really differ is by how much of their maleness they retain, on purpose or incidentally because of not choosing to transition. It could well be just an awareness thing that really seperates them in some cases. I'd say that was true for me. Now that I am aware of how all these things in my life add up, and why crossdressing was always a big part of my life, I find the dsyphoria isn't alleviated just by dressing. It becomes much more difficult to handle because it's true nature is about what I am seeing, what's inside of me.

One thing I do know to be true is that I feel the way I feel and no amount of dressing really changes that, although I can't say how I'd feel if I dressed drab all the time now, seeing as I haven't in over a year. But I think I'd feel like a woman in guy clothes, which wouldn't be my choice of dress, but it's only clothes in the end. I also feel the way I do with or without transitioning. But that's partly because of my own life situation. It's quite possible that if I was feeling more boxed in and pushed I would push back by moving into that square, and it's still quite possible that's what will eventually happen. Everyone's different and everyone's situation is different, which is why I get a little annoyed at the assumption that transition is the way to go if you are TS. Maybe it is, but that's got to be MY decision, my path that leads me to that conclusion. That assumption might be one reason some Transfemales do in fact hide out in cd or genderqueer territory, instead of acknowledging their full selves. If you were led to believe that TS=Transition and you have reasons for not transitioning, it might be easier to stay away from that conundrum by just crossing that TS off your list.

Anyway, that's my :2c:
I can't speak for anyone else.

[Vicky_Scot]

This is all so confussing and it does not have to be.

Can we not just use this one simple and small word to describe ourselves.

So next time anyone ask what you are, just reply.

I am "ME"

Xx Vicky xX

[Valeria]

Hmmm...I'm not sure where to start with this Kehleyr. There are some assumptions you make about transitioning that I guess you have more experience than I do, so I'll leave it at that. Well, except that there's kind of a black and whiteness to it that I'm not sure about, but that could be predicated on the label of what TS is in the first place. It seems to be a more cut and dried area of gender identity with likewise cut and dried solutions... which again I wonder if it's that simple. Like I said, you are more in the swim than me, so I can only comment from my own life pretty much.
Eh. I was short on sleep when I wrote that - it's a wonder if it's coherent at all. It probably is a little too confining sounding. However, most people I've known that have actually confidently asserted they were a trans woman have fallen into one of three categories: transitioned, transitioning, or miserable that they weren't transitioning (and there is often a lot of frustration on the part of those who are transitioning who have hit road blocks). So once you reach a certain point, it does seem to be pretty cut and dried for most people. Not everyone has bottom surgery - at least, not right away. That's most often a cost issue, though.

I know there are trans females that don't transition, or don't have surgery. They seem to be not the majority, at least amongst those that actually join forums dedicated to transitioning and transition. I don't know how many trans females there are who don't define themselves as such, simply because transition doesn't seem like a realistic goal to them.

If you wouldn't rather live as a female than as a male, then I guess I can't see as how you are trans female - it would seem to me that some other descriptor is more applicable. So I guess I do assume that all trans females would prefer to transition to at least some degree, even if they choose not to do so. That may be a blind spot on my part, but I can't relate to having a female gender identity, but wanting to live as a man (not for family, for instance, but simply because you'd rather be a man). Also, I think that people that want to flip back and forth probably fall elsewhere in the "spectrum".

And as I said, I don't remember what it feels like to be closer to where you are. That's one reason I rarely chime in when people ask "do transsexuals feel like this?" type threads in the TS section - partly because how we feel varies widely, and partly because I don't clearly remember what full-blown "gender dysphoria" (or whatever you want to call it) felt like. Pretty bad, I think.

[JoAnnDallas]

Kehleyr.......A Post-Op TS IS a WOMAN and NOT a Crossdresser. A Pre-Op TS IS a TransWoman and a Crossdresser. I would never assume a Post-Op to be a Crossdresser unless she decides to CD as a MAN. Then why would she have transistion in the first place.
Those of us that CD, do fall in a completely different Category.
Many CDer may be TS in denial. Or some may have gender-dysphoric and don't know it. Some may be what I call a "Dual-Gender" CDer. To others it is something else. It is hard to Categorise these people.
Family, finnaces, society, friends, work, and a host of many other things do influence who we are and what we do.

[Nicki B]

Now I personally consider these two groups to be quite distinct. One group suffers from pre-transition gender dysphoria, sometimes to crippling degrees, and identifies strongly as female. Most people I've known in this category reach a point where potential barriers like losing family and suffering employment discrimination are secondary compared to the emotional costs of continuing to pretend to be the wrong gender. The other group identifies as male, tends to be more interested in gender performance than gender identity, and tends to actually like presenting as a male at least some of the time. There are other differences too, but the point is that the differences are pretty fundamental.

I think for people who sit at the extremes, it's not surprising that's all they see?

But my experience (as someone who sits pretty much smack between both groups identified above) is that dysphoria is not something you have or don't have - it's present to varying degrees (and in differing ways).

What unites us is some feeling of wrongness in presenting as male, at least some of the time. And there are a LOT of us (I've met many trans people) in this grey area in the middle - indeed much of the soul-searching you hear, from some who identify as TS, would imply they are trying to see how far on that spectrum they are?

So I disagree with your premise - because, from where I am on the spectrum, I know it doesn't fit me and many others?

[Sharon]

Kehleyr.......A Post-Op TS IS a WOMAN and NOT a Crossdresser. A Pre-Op TS IS a TransWoman and a Crossdresser.

Wrong!

I am pre-op, and, perhaps, even non-op, but I do not consider myself to be a crossdresser. If I was to dress as a male, then I would be crossdressing because I consider myself a woman despite what my physical attributes may indicate.

Okay, that's my two cents, but I appreciate this thread because many of Kehleyr's questions are also some that I have wondered.

[battybattybats]

If one can acknowledge that a trans person is different from a non trans person..

Why is it difficult to imagine someone who is halfway trans?

A coin may be balanced on it's edge after all.

The neurological et al factors that appear to change a male brain into a female one despite the male body (and it's opposite of course) is complex. Why cannot there be a mild case, a less severe change. What happens if someones brain is halfway between a Trans brain and a non Trans brain?

[JoAnnDallas]

Sharon....I was looking at this from the view point of someone that is not familar with all of this. A Post-op IS a woman, physcially, mentally, and legally. A Pre-Op IS NOT a YET a woman, physcially or legally. Thus she is still looked at as a CD, since she is preceived to be able to change back.
IMHO, anyone who lives fully time as a woman IS a woman, even if the plumbing has not changed.

[CaptLex]

A Post-op IS a woman, physcially, mentally, and legally. A Pre-Op IS NOT a YET a woman, physcially or legally. Thus she is still looked at as a CD, since she is preceived to be able to change back.
Hmmm, I don't like that definition at all :thinking: . . . if I apply that same definition to our side of the fence, I'll never be considered a man. :rolleyes:

[Anna the Dub]

A Pre-Op IS NOT a YET a woman, physcially or legally. Thus she is still looked at as a CD, since she is preceived to be able to change back.

Can't say I agree with this either. I am a pre-op. I may not be a woman legally yet, but physically I can no longer be considered male. I have no testicles, I have breasts, I have a somewhat female shaped body, I just haven't transitioned yet. Am I able to change back? No, my physical changes are permanent. I am most definitely not a CD, I am a pre op TS.

[Pandora]

I think for people who sit at the extremes, it's not surprising that's all they see?

But my experience (as someone who sits pretty much smack between both groups identified above) is that dysphoria is not something you have or don't have - it's present to varying degrees (and in differing ways).

What unites us is some feeling of wrongness in presenting as male, at least some of the time. And there are a LOT of us (I've met many trans people) in this grey area in the middle - indeed much of the soul-searching you hear, from some who identify as TS, would imply they are trying to see how far on that spectrum they are?

So I disagree with your premise - because, from where I am on the spectrum, I know it doesn't fit me and many others?

:iagree: Battybattybat also touches on this in her posts.

The concept that I think needs to be grasped here is an abstract one. Human state of being. I think it is wrong to think of that as being something rigid, rather it's something that can constantly be shifting. Think about general emotions. No one feels the same all the time. We're up, down, whatever. And thinking in terms of rigid slots we all have to fit in all the time is off too.

I first started trying to rethink my perceptions of the human state of being years ago when I read an article where guitarist Robert Fripp said something about Indian musicians sitting and playing for hours on end to reach a point of enlightened playing that didn't just happen right away. As a musician I know this to be true (and I'm sure others here will back me up) sometimes my playing is in the gutter and sometimes it's as if I'm locked into some higher state of being (not often enough!). This may sound off the topic of gender identification but I think it relates as I've come to accept that I identify as a male which I was born as a large percentage of the time, but also have transitioned states of being where a feminine persona is much more prevalent. For others that ratio can be different. It would be nice if the worldview of people would be that of equating us to snowflakes. No two are identical.

[deja true]

"...would be nice if the worldview of people would be that of equating us to snowflakes. No two are identical."

Yes, Pandora, it would be nice, but unfortunately snowflakes don't come with all the genetic and chemical and cultural baggage that we mammals do.

So each of us is partly made up of parts of the others that came before us.

But, having free will, we can also make up other parts of ourselves that could include past experience or , depending on your imagination, be cut out of entirely new and unimagined cloth.

We're some of each, everyone of us.

deja

[MarinaTwelve200]

Some of us "Crossdressers" dont identify with females at all, and consider our MALE self as our "real self". We CD primarily to ESCAPE our real selves, at least for a while. Taking a "vacation" from our selves, so to speak, by becoming a different person---a woman.

Us "escapists" find the experience very "relaxing", permitting us to disassociate from the worries, concerns and obligations of our true selves. Not only personal stresses, but those associated with simply being a male, seem to dissolve away. There is often also a "high" associated with crossing personal identity "Lines" that the brain "rebels" against---just as "risk takers" experience from more life threatening behaviour. And finally, there is often a "turn on" factor from being vicariously in such "close contact" with a "woman".

Thing is, "Escapist" CD is not generally based on gender or sexual issues and is one of about 5 or so fundementally different reasons or motivations for Crossdressing. I mention this just so others know that not all CD is sexuality related or can be put on a SINGLE "spectrum" of sorts. We are dealing with several seperate and distinct conditions that only share one thing (dressing in clothing of opposte gender) in common.

[Nicki B]

Marina, have you met many others who identify as you do? And I think I've asked you before - why do you think your need is to escape specifically to a female persona? :strugglin

[Ruth]

I love questions like this because they are very fundamental and would probably yield a lot of insight.Unfortunately they also make my brain hurt!
I agree that in the MtF transgender world there are probably those who want to transition into full time women and those who want to CD and have a male life as well. I think I am in the latter group.
But sometimes when I am en femme I feel so comfortable and so right that I wonder why I ever resume my drab male existence.
Then as someone else posted, there are all the financial and family and social ties that keep us coming back to our male selves.
So is it just the wish for conformity that stops CDers like me from going further? I wish I knew.

[shirley1]

your right ruth - dressed at home last nite it almost changes my mindset sometimes - more relaxed at ease with myself - somewhere in between ? yeh i think i am at the moment ! lets hope the dysphoria doesnt kick in too much too often but cant be bothered to fight it anymore - go with the flow !

lifes too short to worry about tomorow !

[Valeria]

I think for people who sit at the extremes, it's not surprising that's all they see?
Do you really think I'm an extremist? I think if I were truly extreme, I wouldn't be able to get along with genderqueer friends and I wouldn't be asking these questions. Also, I'm quite willing to have my assumptions challenged.

I'll admit that my gender identity fits very well into the binary gender model, and I probably do sometimes phrase things based on that perspective, but I readily recognize that not everyone fits that model (and I started a very complex thread on gender some time ago, discussing how I feel that both gender and identity are complex multi-dimensional concepts, and describing what I feel are several of the dimensions).


But my experience (as someone who sits pretty much smack between both groups identified above) is that dysphoria is not something you have or don't have - it's present to varying degrees (and in differing ways).

What unites us is some feeling of wrongness in presenting as male, at least some of the time. And there are a LOT of us (I've met many trans people) in this grey area in the middle - indeed much of the soul-searching you hear, from some who identify as TS, would imply they are trying to see how far on that spectrum they are?

So I disagree with your premise - because, from where I am on the spectrum, I know it doesn't fit me and many others?
Nicki, it's not entirely clear to me how any of this description diverges from my description of the group in between the first two I described (i.e. the "gender-dysphoric crossdressers").

Anyway, I'd still be interested in your feedback on the second half of my post. Which is what I'm actually trying to obtain more insight on - I know there are trans females who identify entirely as women and non-dysphoric crossdressers who identify entirely as men, I'm looking for more insight into those who *don't* fall completely into either of those categories.

[deja true]

"...I'm looking for more insight into those who *don't* fall completely into either of those categories."


Kehleyr, I think your talking about a very large sub-section of the 'girls' who make up this Forum...

The problem with trying to explain is...We Can't!

When I'm dressed, I want to stay dressed forever. When I'm not, I can't wait until I am.

Until I came here and found the sympathetic support and cameraderie of others, I felt the notion of going full-time was a pipe dream. But quite honestly, the examples of many of the intelligent and thoughtful women here, including all shades of T-ness and realness, has made me think that it really is possible.

I may never do it (not many can financially afford to risk our present lives), but just the thought that it's a real possibility is somehow very comforting. Maybe y'all are not supposed to be 'recruiters' for this lifestyle, but, bless you, you are.

Oddly, I'm much happier with myself being more confused. Did that make any sense?

(more) respect & love (than ever),

deja

[jill s]

I see my cross dressing as more of a symptom of not being wired close enough to male or female. I usually use the term Transvestite because I think Latin is sexy.

[donnadawn]

A rose by any other name is still a rose!! A person is a female or male as determined by theire gentalia. Problems arise when the brain says it should or would like to be otherwise. I think a lot of the controversy arises when people try to classify CDing as who we ARE where as I just think of it as what we DO. Unlike roses, are brains are not just of one gender or the other irregardles of our physical attributes. We can be a blend of both and I believe that for a person to be 100% one or the other is actually quite rare even if most people would not want to admit it for one reason or another.

[bgirl]

Its the gender mutt again, getting my two cents in.
I was researching TG friendly places in Victoria B.C., in case I dress while I vacation there, when I came across a Vancouver site which addressed the term transgender very well. In effect in said that it was the most mis-understood and disputed meaning term in genderland. So for the sake of discussion she included everyone that did anything as transgendered.
Anyone who dresses different than the gender they were born to. Drag Queens and Kings, crossdressers, trannies, thinks or act different than their biologcal form might indicate. I loved the inclusion of 'dual-gendered' and 'multi-gendered'. Makes you wonder. Canadians use the same words with different meanings. They don't seem so afraid of labels, call them selves queer wiith no ill side effects.

Even more interesting, she freely linked and quoted Government sources for her definitions and support networks. It seems the Goverment in B.C. is active in reaching out to transgendered people so that they can recieve care without feeling threatened and addressing their special needs.
I am writing to you today as a transgendered woman. Later today when I once again get dressed as a man, I will be a transgendered man.
If that confuses you, what do you think I feel like!?!?!?!?!?
I have decieded to spend zero time trying to label, relabel, define or redefine what I am.
My time would be much better spent accepting who I amnot what.

[kerrianna]

I'm assuming you found the Transalliance Society's webpage
http://www.transalliancesociety.org/contact.html
particularily this paper:
http://www.barbarafindlay.com/articles/42.pdf

and/or the Vancouver Coastal Health's Transhealth page
http://www.vch.ca/transhealth/

Yes, the support is good in BC. It used to be better before government cutbacks about 8 years ago. There used to be a Gender Clinic at Vancouver General Hospital.

Enjoy your trip to Victoria, Beth. It's a beautiful little city, especially in the spring. :)

[Nicki B]

Do you really think I'm an extremist? I think if I were truly extreme, I wouldn't be able to get along with genderqueer friends and I wouldn't be asking these questions.

Perhaps you had your tongue in your cheek, when you wrote that... I was intending to indicate (from your self-description) that you seem to sit at one extreme of the range? A strong binary view is not uncommon among the post-op TSs I know - that's what they strongly need to be?


Anyway, I'd still be interested in your feedback on the second half of my post. Which is what I'm actually trying to obtain more insight on - I know there are trans females who identify entirely as women and non-dysphoric crossdressers who identify entirely as men, I'm looking for more insight into those who *don't* fall completely into either of those categories.

In that case, I can really only speak for myself? But I have discussed this, f2f, with a lot of transpeople, and the view I have come to is there are really only two useful labels? Transgender, as a catch-all term for all of us with some degree of dysphoria, and TS, as a subset, indicating those who need some form of medical intervention. Any further subdivision always leads to arguments and hurt - and together we may stand, but divided we will certainly fall?


:devil:
Now, to offer something more contentious - for someone who feels more comfortable in women's clothing and, in particular, projecting a female image - can they really say they have absolutely no dysphoria, at all? :strugglin

[Valeria]

Now, to offer something more contentious - for someone who feels more comfortable in women's clothing and, in particular, projecting a female image - can they really say they have absolutely no dysphoria, at all?
I'm not sure there are many of us here that have transitioned far enough to answer this question, so I'm not sure that it's all going to be all that contentious. I think I'm the only fairly regular poster here who has had FFS and SRS, and who also interacts pretty exclusively with people who do not know my past in daily life (though there are may be some lurkers in a similar position) - so there may not be many people in a position to really answer this question.

I think there are really *two* questions here. Do I feel any dysphoria, and do I harbor any harbor any latent dysphoric feelings?

Taking the second question first, I think the answer is obviously yes. If aliens were to abduct me and masculinize my body and change my sex to male, it would obviously bother me greatly. I think it would bother me in a different way than before - I'm so much more secure in my womanhood than I used to be a long time ago, that I think I'd view myself just as a victimized woman. But I assume it would still bother me.

However, I think the first question is much more relevant, and I think for me the answer really is mostly no. For the most part, I think that my dysphoric feelings can be divided into two categories - dysphoria about my social role and dysphoria about my anatomy.

My body dysphoria has been pretty well eliminated through a combination of hormones and surgery. I can look in a mirror, whether nude or in a bikini, and not be ashamed or unhappy about what I see. In fact, I like my body quite a bit - it's not bad at all for a woman my age. I wish my tummy were flatter, but that's not gender dysphoria, that's just a woman wishing she were more "perfect". Perhaps more to the point, when I look in the mirror (even first thing in the morning), I just see a woman looking back at me. I'm not sure that everyone ever reaches such a level of body comfort - I was kind of lucky with regard to little masculinization to begin with. But it is possible.

Similarly, my social dysphoria is pretty well eliminated. I don't want to advocate that everyone that transitions should restart their life as completely as I did (not just changing jobs, but going back to university and changing careers). But I think it's hard to eliminate this form of dysphoria completely if you are surrounded by people that know your history and give you constant reminders that you are "special". Also, I don't like to place emphasis on being able to get gendered as female consistently in daily life as being essential, but I think that never getting misgendered probably helps me a lot.

I don't know that the descriptor "feels more comfortable in women's clothing" is even applicable to me at this point. Clothes don't have much significance to me. My clothing is pretty much designed for females, but that's mostly utilitarian - it fits better and makes me look more attractive. I prefer women's t-shirts to men's t-shirts because they are tailored more and are less baggy around the waist. Women's jeans also fit me better, and women's sandals are just plain more attractive. I do wear a bra during the day, but that's mostly because going up and down stairs or working out without wearing a bra hurts. I generally strip it off as soon as I get home. I sometimes wear "male" t-shirts or jackets that I like. I've often had to wear gender-neutral work uniforms, sometimes including tops that were really men's clothing, and it didn't bother me at all. I'm female regardless of what I wear, and I'm secure enough for clothing to not erode my self-perception.

Anyway, I'm not sure that I place any more significance on clothing than any other woman. My criteria for what to wear are pretty much indistinguishable from those of my life partner.

After a while, as you get more comfortable with who you are, in my experience your viewpoints on a lot of things really do evolve quite a bit.

[AmberTG]

This has been a really interesting discussion so far! It's interesting to see how different people describe what amounts to the same issues, using the language and words each person has assigned to the various degrees of the TG spectrum. Personally, I find myself somewhere in the middle, with a decided lean to the female side. I have no clear label for it, I just call it Trans-gendered. With the changes in my body due to HRT, I may have to revise that to Trans-sexual, although I don't care for that description very much.
My primary issue is that I don't identify as female, but I don't identify as male either. I'm just me on the inside.

I really hope this doesn't turn into a mud-slinging contest, we need to be able to discuss these things in a rational manner, wouldn't you agree?

[bgirl]

I really hope this doesn't turn into a mud-slinging contest, we need to be able to discuss these things in a rational manner, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe if we use the right mud.......I could use a facial!

[AmberTG]

:devil:
Now, to offer something more contentious - for someone who feels more comfortable in women's clothing and, in particular, projecting a female image - can they really say they have absolutely no dysphoria, at all? :strugglin

I'll bet there's a lot of different answers to this question, and they vary by who you ask.

[Nicki B]

I don't know that the descriptor "feels more comfortable in women's clothing" is even applicable to me at this point.

Sorry - I'd actually intended that last para of mine as a question more to those who particularly define themselves as 'crossdressers'.. I obviously should have made that clearer. :)

[MarinaTwelve200]

Marina, have you met many others who identify as you do? And I think I've asked you before - why do you think your need is to escape specifically to a female persona? :strugglin

I have heard from quite a few who are like me. It is my opinion that about HALF of us are escapist types, but we are not as vocal as the more "classic" "fem side" CDers, so we may not seem to be as numerous.

Why do I feel a "need" to escape to a female persona?----Its not really a "need" but rather a DISCOVERY---a very good feeling I got when I first experimented with CD as a 12 year old--out of simple curiosity.---So I kept doing it. It was many years later when I figgured out just WHAT I was doing. It seems that the female persona is "as far away as I can get" from my normal MALE persona.----The ESCAPE feels so good it has become a habbit, something I do to releive my stresses---something that works better than any thing else I know.

[Vanessac48]

I can throw in my 2-cents worth. I have dressed on and off for 30 yrs+, and never once thought about being a full-time woman, or crossing over, so to speak. I did it out of desire at first, and as time went on, and I got better, and learned new tricks, I looked better and better. It is pure fantasy and amazement for me, and I love the illusion. I'm very much a man, have no issues with being one, just happen to love the illusion I can create. I feel like a sculptor. Give me the right tools, and lots of practice, and I can build a masterpiece for my own enjoyment, then tear it down, until I decide to build another. I'll go a year without dressing as a woman, then I'll go 4 days in a row dressing like one. It's more of an amazing hobby, of beautiful art, and I'm the painter.