Take-Off on "Labels" + French TG site

[ReineD]

I was going to post this in "Labels", but have decided not to hijack Tree's thread and instead start my own.

I agree that you cannot accurately define or label the vast array of gender combinations or levels among the TG community. I also recognize that people assign different definitions based on their own personal experience. But, I think most will agree that discussions are useful if they help to convey an understanding to someone like me, who struggles for insight. I do not wish to offend or test anyone's patience, but up until 18 months ago my knowledge of TGism was pretty well limited to impressions offered by popular culture. :strugglin

It is not so important for me to determine what to call it as it is to try to understand why so many CDs are unhappy in drab and the obsession with being en femme when they are; in short, where it is going, if anywhere else than the present state. It seems like living at a crossroads or precariously perched on top of a fence, in a perpetual state of vacillation. If the decision is to seek balance and live a gender-combined life, then why the general unhappiness and boredom with drab, the envy of GGs when in drab, and the wistfulness, the preoccupation, or the very struggle for balance? I say this with compassion, not criticism. It seems a sad and uncomfortable place to be. :sad:

I was on a TG site in France. I read a devastating letter from a TS to his friend, a CD. I have translated it and can either post it somewhere here or PM it to anyone who wants it. The TS paints a rather bleak picture of the CDs life, blames it on a lack of self-acceptance, assumes that the CD is in denial, and promises that if he will only accept himself and transition, he will eventually find peace and happiness. I have heard from my bf that it is not uncommon for some TSs to hold this view. It also makes sense that TSs bring their own definitions to the mix. I mention the letter here because the described scenario could be accurate given many CDs unhappiness or discomfort while in male mode?

I've been spending a lot of time on this site lately, hence my own obsession: with trying to understand. This is a minor point of contention between my bf and me. :lovestruck: He prefers not to overly define but to instead stay open to the experience. I see his point. He wants to maintain a personal balance. But, I still have a need for added insight, at least for the next little while, until I have somehow found my own balance and a deepening level of acceptance that is required with my increasing CD experience.

Thank you all for your thoughts! :hugs:

[Badwolf]

I would like to see the french letter but I would like to say outright that it sounds like its a closed minded approach to the Trans community and is probably a person who has their own problems with the Trans community as a whole, even though they're part of it.

A CD is a person who has decided to overcome social stereotypes and enjoy the clothing styles and feeling of both sexes. As such it has to be a person who is not particularly uncomfortable with they're birth sex. Yet the dress of the opposite sex is entertaining or alluring for some reason or another for us.

My only personal envy of GG's is that my birth sex and genetics have made it very difficult for me to have that perfect girly appearance. I would consider certain medical procedures if they guaranteed my malehood and proper discretion within my lifestyle at the time. Beyond that considering I like women particularly and also have a very nice warddrobe of male clothing I believe staying mostly male is in my interests.

If I should go through with medical procedures I would be closer to a strange crossroads of the genders, but either way a certain level of maleness still is a part of me and to hide that fact or live in fear of it would be a much more depressing state for myself. I would believe a TG would be the opposite since they believe that they feel uncomfortable with they're birth sex. While practically some potential TG's may mask themselves as CD's for some reason or another it is rude to either out them or pretend CD's dont exist.

As a conclusion the entire Trans community (as the name trans AKA cross suggests) are at a cross roads of genders and are attempting to identify which route they would like to take.

[kerrianna]

Yeah, that "I did it now I'm happy so you do it too and you'll be happy" 'advice' is fairly common in the trans world. I always assume that the person is well intentioned and wants others to be happy too. But the problem is everyone is different and transitioning isn't something to be taken lightly.

There are people in the trans community who really resent what they see as pushiness by some transitioned people, but like I said, I figure their intentions are good. It does make the other person feel inadequate or a failure though if they are getting this pressure to transition and don't think it's for them.

But lots of times we are kind of asking for it, because we moan and whine about our lot in life. I think sometimes sorting out gender confusion, or migration, or even just trying to figure out why we feel compelled or obsessed with stuff, means we have to be a bit whiny and out of sorts about things.

There are a lot of reasons why people crossdress. The majority of MTFs here have already declared they have no problem with their male side, they have no desire to live on the 'other' side. Some like to visit, some feel it brings out different aspects of their personality, some just plain like the clothes and the way they feel.

People with gender identity issues travel along their own path and if transitioning is where they need to be they will eventually find their way there. It's not like it's hard to find out about the where's, why's and how's anymore.

I like your bf's attitude. You know, a lot of our journey is actually predicated on how we view the world as people, not as a man or woman, and some of us have a very organic let-it-flow approach to life. Having to jump into line isn't our style and won't work for us, which is fine. It might work quite well for others. What counts is what makes us happy and feeling true in the end.

Personally I feel that most people are quite capable of making their own decisions and finding their own way. It's one thing to say to someone "hey, I remember feeling like that and when I did this I was happy" and another to say "the reason you're miserable is because you're not doing what I did." One's non judgemental and non pushy, the other the exact opposite. It says more about the person giving the 'advice' than it does about the person it's intended for, IMO.

[deja true]

Reine, I'd like to see the letter, I guess, but if it's as apparently as opinionated as you say, it probably doesn't need to be posted here..

From your description, we've already heard that narrow argument before and certainly don't need to start that conversation all over again. It's already going on in 3 or 4 threads near the top of the list right now.

Just because it's in French doesn't make it any more valid, and even if you are a native French speaker yourself, which I assume you are, ma cher, your translation will still just add another layer of interpretation to the thoughts. Gosh! We already are having problems translating English into English with all this "label" verbosity.

Let sleeping French people lie! Zut!

respect et amour, petite,

deja

[Badwolf]

Very well written. :) I agree the person probably wasn't doing it with bad intentions, but trying to give someone advice to bring people to the joy they found. Its a common reaction with just about anything and isnt limited to the Trans community.

The key thing is to remember most Tran's people are smart intelligent adults and the mentality that all CD's are just in denial robs us of the respect that comes with being that. :)

As for people finding their ways I agree most people who aren't particularly in the right place will find their way and most of the internet venues available on the subjects are fairly well written and the main parts of the Trans community are very friendly and supporting.

[sara_also]

ReineD, Thank you for a very well thought out thread..
I can not respond for anyone but myself on this matter.
I am not unhappy where I am at. I consider myself a CD. And only a CD.
I have never had any intentions of doing anything more than dressing in the clothes of the ladies I love and adore. I sometimes miss the ability to be out among the general public since moving from the sin city of Las Vegas to a very small town. It's easy to blend with all of the turist there, and never see any one you know. Now I have to be very careful as every one will know, should my life style be more open.
I must add that I am very lucky to be married to a wonderful lady that accepts my dressing without question.
So in conclusion, I am very happy with my life. I am not on any fence and know exactly what I want. I am very happy to dress in my home, and when traveling away from home.
We need more threads like this.....Thank You

[ReineD]

I poked around the forum after I started this thread and saw "Somewhere in Between" which asks similar questions to mine, but much more specific. My focus is different though:



There are a lot of reasons why people crossdress. The majority of MTFs here have already declared they have no problem with their male side, they have no desire to live on the 'other' side. Some like to visit, some feel it brings out different aspects of their personality, some just plain like the clothes and the way they feel.


My question wasn't so much about why people crossdress, rather why I read so much unhappiness, boredom or dissatisfaction about being in male mode. Maybe it is not a question that can easily be answered. It is also true there are those who seem to have struck a happy balance.

As to the letter, deja, I am seeing that the sentiment expressed is not new to the TG community so I will not post it here. And I do not think it is particularly well expressed. But I will send it to those who have requested it.

Thanks for all your responses!

[Badwolf]

I'd probably say thats more complex than any one reason. In some cases it may be just ind of like why Friday is better than any other day. All work days are the same yet Friday holds a special place because its the work day where we dont have to think. If theres any reason for being a little down is that we cant socialize during this experience as we may want to sometimes.

[Julie York]

The CD stuff (or any label you wish to apply) is a bit like smoking or drinking. Some folk enjoy a drink now and then and really enjoy it. Some folk really NEED it. Some folk are happy to have a smoke after a meal. Others smoke 30 a day and get really cranky when they can't.

That's why everyone gets so upset about the label thing. Someone who drinks one glass of wine a week is not going to be happy being called an alcoholic. Someone who drinks a bottle of vodka a day is going to get very irritated when someone calls them a casual drinker.

So, to get back to your post. The drab thing? I spend 95% of my mental time there. Doesn't bother me one bit. Now if only I could get my drinking and smoking down to that point of abstinence things would be very good.

[Kayla Shadows]

I have also heard that crossdressers are a sort of outcast in the TS community.In denial amongst other things....but Im happy and I want both :) I cant stand the "do you know what your problem is" kinda people.

Depending on how much time one has to dress,unhappiness can come if the desired level isnt there.Many say how drab is just no fun.I myself think girls clothes are more fun.I mean,just look at them.

Balance is whatever brings happiness.

[Kelsy]

ReineD,

I am not going to speak for anyone here on this site but I just want to offer a possible reason for the vascilation and discontent. I believe that many Cders including myself play with the desire in our minds, to transition! we are in denial when we say we are just CDs and enjoy the feeling of the clothes! Let's face it most of the fabrics that we love so much are available in mens clothing. We want women's clothes. Not womens style clothes made for men but women's clothes. Why? We don't want to be feminine men, I think that secretly we really want to be women:2c:

Kelsy

[docrobbysherry]

I poked around the forum after I started this thread and saw "Somewhere in Between" which asks similar questions to mine, but much more specific. My focus is different though:



My question wasn't so much about why people crossdress, rather why I read so much unhappiness, boredom or dissatisfaction about being in male mode. Maybe it is not a question that can easily be answered. It is also true there are those who seem to have struck a happy balance.

As to the letter, deja, I am seeing that the sentiment expressed is not new to the TG community so I will not post it here. And I do not think it is particularly well expressed. But I will send it to those who have requested it.

Thanks for all your responses!

Please remember I'm NOT talking about TS and TG individuals in this post, just CDs. Because I'm clearly the latter, only!

It may go back to "looks" for some CDs, and for me, too. I fooled around with CDing, but wasn't real happy with my female looks for years. Now, I'm enjoying my CDing, because I'm HAPPY with the way my new female persona looks!

On the other hand, I think my male persona is old and has never been attractive.
So, what is there to be excited about seeing the same male person in the mirror I've been looking at for 60 years?

When I can see a COMPLETELY different person in the mirror. That the image appears to be a younger, attractive female, is all the better! And that is what CDing is, in a nut shell, for me! Hope that helps?

[ReineD]

Someone who drinks a bottle of vodka a day is going to get very irritated when someone calls them a casual drinker.

Um .. I should think someone who drinks a fifth of vodka per day would be delighted to be thought of as a casual drinker! ;)

[Sophie_C]

Look, it's really hard to gage exactly what percentage of CD's are really TG's constrained by social barriers.

Given that neither lifestyle is remotely accepted in society today, that makes a lot of repression present.

So, while I can sort of agree with what you're saying the common TG angle on CDs is, I don't think it applies to all CDs but I can't say how many.

So, until things change (and really all that you need is the proper laws in place to protect people from job loss and discrimination) we'll never know...

[Celeste]

I'm not particularly unhappy in drab mode but am very dissatisfied with many of the new clothing styles and lack of options in mens "cookie cutter" fashions.Looking at pics of my grandfather from the 30s',he's wearing the same thing that their wearing now,the tent style,how boring.I don't like hiding my body with baggy clothing.I wonder how long it will take for mens fashions and clothes to actually fit again.

[crusadergirl]

For me i'm not unhappy with being in drab as many say. I really like both sides of me.
The bad part is i don't really get to use my femme side but maybe 10% and over the last couple of months its been more like 3%. I don't like labels at all i think there a waste of time. One person said we cds secretly want to be women i would have to say shes right when it comes to me. I don't really know why i like to call myself a girlprodigy but it has to mean something. But to me thats not a label its just me.
I'm still learning to accept who i am, it takes time i'm just hoping i can make something great out of what i have been given.

[Jada Rose]

Speaking for myself, I don't have a lot of problem with striking a balance between drab and femme.
That being said, for me, there is a beauty and grace that can only be found in the female form. Trying to emulate that gives me a great fulfillment and feeling of self worth, like I'm completing who I am.

[Valeria]

Yeah, that "I did it now I'm happy so you do it too and you'll be happy" 'advice' is fairly common in the trans world. I always assume that the person is well intentioned and wants others to be happy too. But the problem is everyone is different and transitioning isn't something to be taken lightly.

There are people in the trans community who really resent what they see as pushiness by some transitioned people, but like I said, I figure their intentions are good. It does make the other person feel inadequate or a failure though if they are getting this pressure to transition and don't think it's for them.
I really don't think I'm like that. Some advice I recently gave someone in the TS section was: "Like the others said, just be yourself. If you are TS, you'll figure it out eventually. If you are happy without transitioning, then just be happy."

I can only really remember pushing one person to move forward (or find a way to come to terms with not transitioning further), and that person has already had FFS, has been on hormones for years, and has been pretty clear at times that she identifies as female and wants to transition. Honestly, I steer clear of most of the "Am I TS?" threads, because I have no freaking idea - only they can answer that question.

The only motivation for the thread I started is a desire to understand those "in between" a little bit more...


But lots of times we are kind of asking for it, because we moan and whine about our lot in life.
I'll admit this part sometimes confuses me a bit. I mean, I can understand fear of the consequences of transitioning, but I don't understand prolonged uncertainty about the desire. People will post that they've felt like they were meant to be a girl since they were an egg in their mother's ovaries - but then they'll say they don't know if they are transsexual. I don't completely get it.

People who post in the TS section as if they think they are TS, but then post in the CD section as if they consider themselves crossdressers confuse me too. I'm all hung up on the identity thing, and people who are gender confused and don't seem identity driven perplex me at times.

Eh. Here we get people who can't decide if they are CD or TS. In other spaces, I encounter people who have never crossdressed once, but who can't decide if they are gay or TS, or who have some other source of confusion. Uncertainty happens.


It's one thing to say to someone "hey, I remember feeling like that and when I did this I was happy"
That's really all I've ever tried to do. I see lots of doom and gloom about transitioning, and you know what? It's often pretty nice, once you've done it (though it's also often painful and expensive, and not for those who aren't certain).

[kerrianna]

Kehleyr, you are one of the people who I think IS careful not to suggest any particular course of action. I've always appreciated that you do word your responses carefully, more of the 'this is how I felt, this is what I did, this is how I feel now, but you're you.' Even when you are perplexed by someone you are careful, as you were just here, to not pass judgement other than saying "not sure where you are coming from". That's ok. I don't expect people to know my life (lol, I barely know it myself), just like I don't know anyone else's situation entirely. I have no problem with people telling me what worked for them, because I understand they are telling me about THEIR lives. And I don't expect people to totally get me, because it's MY life. I know I live outside a lot of 'norms' anyway. So, sweetie, it wasn't you I was referring to. I belong to a few other forums and trans-communities and I've seen some people being a bit pushy... mainly out of overzealousness. I figure they're just trying to be helpful in the ways they know about.

I understood your motivations for the other thread, and I think it's an interesting question to ask. Sometimes I feel like I'm taking myself off course by replying because in fact I am very label unfriendly, which might explain some of my to and fro-ing and nail nashing. I'm better off not trying to figure out WHAT I am (because I'm one of those spirits that questions being a human being at times so you can see how endlessly drawn out I can be) but rather what it is I want to do with my life.

To try and get back on topic with this thread and explain a bit more... Reine wonders why some of us express such dissatisfaction at being male. Again, I can't speak for anyone else, because there could be lots of reasons why a person might.

In my case...my answer at this time has to honestly be...I don't know. I would be fooling myself if I said it was cut and dried that I am NOT male, that I am a transwoman who needs to break free of the male shell and trappings. I will say that it does feel very strongly that way to me most days. What I call my gender dsyphoria is a very real and visceral thing, and there is often accompanying depression and anxiety, although it's been a bit better lately.

However, there are a few things I really do need to consider and deal with at the same time. While I had early feelings of being naturally female, and then feeling crushed to find out I was expected to be a boy, I did grow up more or less thinking of myself as male (albeit a pretty pathetic, weak and overly sensitive one), and while I have always crossdressed, and it's been an important part of my life, I continued into my adult years thinking of myself as a fkd up male with a pervy fetish. Although I say that tongue in cheek. There was some shame there, but for the most part I always thought I made a pretty good girl, even when I was hiding it from the rest of the world.

To go from decades of that, to 'hey, I REALLY DO want to be a girl!" to "OMG maybe I AM a girl!" to "I AM a girl, now wtf do I do?" in two short years... well, Kehleyr, let's just say you're not the only one who doesn't get it.

So I have to consider other things could be at work, which is why I chose therapy, with a gender ID experienced pyschiatrist who has been recommended to me for getting at what is really driving this. It could be late-discovery (or awareness is a better word I think) TS, it could be that I HATE men and don't want to be one (although I don't hate all men, in fact I love many of them... more I hate what men have done to the world and to women in general), it could be I hated my father (that's definitely in the mix somewhere), it could be that I just simply thought, or think, that being a woman is way more suitable for me than being a guy. That wouldn't necessarily make me TS by definition, but it might still mean that living fulltime would make me happy. That's something I'd have to find out as I went along.

But the fact does remain: today I resent and repudiate my male self. Not in it's entirety I don't think because the fact is I love my core being and being male has become part of that just because it's what I was supposed to be and act like for close to 50 years. But I don't see myself as male. That didn't happen overnight, but nearly. It was astonishing to me how quickly I identified as fully or near fully female once I gave myself permission to. And that came about from first breaking down my shell and then seeing that it was okay to be trans, because lots of very cool people I admire are trans, and they aren't freaks after all. It's just something that some of us are born into, and it does make us special people in lots of ways.

So yeah, I'm still at the questioning stage because this is a major life change, not so much in newness (it was always there) but in recognition and permission to follow this path. Some people get that right away. They KNOW they will follow that path. For me, knowing anything is a foreign concept, for whatever reasons, whatever it is in me that keeps me shuttered or scared or open or whatever....it's just me and the way I've developed... or maybe was always like.

I have trouble recognizing concrete truths, but I do recognize this very fundamental thing in my life now: when I look at women I think "this is me" and when I look at men I think "this is NOT me". That's the one thing that seems to remain constant and drives me. I cannot ignore it. So it does cause negative attitudes towards being male because of course that means I am not being me.

And of course, that would take me right back to the TS doorstep and transitioning (living 24-7 female at any rate) as the solution. Which it may well be. But I know enough about myself, have read and heard enough about other people's journeys, to know that it's something I need to take one step at a time. Especially at this stage of my life. It's like I've climbed 50 stories into the air already. If I fall, it's going to hurt a lot more than if I fell from 20 stories.

Unfortunately, we who step as carefully as I am, often fuss and whine across the creek. That's also in my nature. I'm a natural born fussbudget, like my hero Lucy in Peanuts. For that I apologize, but I do try to at least make it entertaining and different. :D

And, sorry, I do tend to go on. :o

[GypsyKaren]

I was on a TG site in France. I read a devastating letter from a TS to his friend, a CD. I have translated it and can either post it somewhere here or PM it to anyone who wants it. The TS paints a rather bleak picture of the CDs life, blames it on a lack of self-acceptance, assumes that the CD is in denial, and promises that if he will only accept himself and transition, he will eventually find peace and happiness. I have heard from my bf that it is not uncommon for some TSs to hold this view.



I have also heard that crossdressers are a sort of outcast in the TS community.


Speaking as a post-op and a Moderator of the TS Forums here, and as someone who personally knows quite a few TS'ers, I don't see this. That's not to say that there aren't some who may feel this way, but I think it's a big mistake to paint such a broad generalization. The only problem we have is when someone compares us to crossdressers because we are quite different, some see this as us looking down on them. The true TS'ers I know are supportive to anyone who asks, plus we're much to busy living our own lives to care to judge someone else.

Karen Starlene :star:

[Nicki B]

Very well written. :) I agree the person probably wasn't doing it with bad intentions, but trying to give someone advice to bring people to the joy they found.

Not intending to cause hurt or offence doesn't mean that can't result, though?

I think it's best for people to be allowed to label themselves (Reine? :D) rather than telling them what they are - it's too predictable that you will offend someone if you do..

[Sam-antha]

Personnally I am not in the least unhappy in male clothing.
Being dressed seems to be in the form of compulsive hobby. (Or is it ?). I like being able to be totally someone else in outlook, mind and appearance.
Sex changing by clothing sometimes seems to be a minor characteristic of the whole process, but then I am ageing.
As a throw in, I will spend more time in shops, looking at, selecting and buying clothes of choice for Sam-antha than I would ever do for myself.
There is no way that I can accept that it is realistically possible to labe anyone including me, either in male life or in Sam-antha's life.
Like most of us in here, I am "different" from you everyone else. Like in my taste in books or music etc.
~Samm

[Nicki B]

Personnally I am not in the least unhappy in male clothing.

Surely the same goes for many genetic women? :)

Do you think it's really only about the clothing, or about the signals the clothes send out?

[Eugenie]

I agree with your analysis, Reine,

Definitions and classifications can be very useful to people who are trying to understand what their crossdressing means... The diversity of situations that exist behind the word "Crossdressers" explains why it is so difficult to analyse and understand what crossdressing means. If we just take the case of MtF crossdressing, there seems to be very little in common between a person who dresses occasionally with some women underwear and a peson who mives 24/7 "en femme".

Some more precise subcategories might help researchers understand better each of the situations.

You said:

I was on a TG site in France. I read a devastating letter from a TS to his friend, a CD.
Being French and living in France, I belong to several French speaking forums... Which one were you looking at please? I may have been a member...:daydreaming:

:hugs:
Eugenie

[ReineD]

It is a portal for 25 individual sites, spanning the full TG range.

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/ester/tempo/tempo.htm

Ou demeurez-vous en France? J'y suis alle seulement une fois, mais j'aimerais bien y retourner! J'adore Paris, et aussi la Bretagne!

Sorry, I don't have a french keyboard!

[ReineD]

I think it's best for people to be allowed to label themselves (Reine? :D) rather than telling them what they are - it's too predictable that you will offend someone if you do..

I couldn't agree more, Nicki. I am afraid that mentioning the TS to CD letter in my original post somewhat diffused my question.

(I quite enjoy my self-assigned label! :D)

[Eugenie]

Ou demeurez-vous en France? J'y suis alle seulement une fois, mais j'aimerais bien y retourner! J'adore Paris, et aussi la Bretagne!
Thanks Reine,

I'll PM you in French... :)

:hugs:
Eugenie

[Nicki B]

My question wasn't so much about why people crossdress, rather why I read so much unhappiness, boredom or dissatisfaction about being in male mode. Maybe it is not a question that can easily be answered.

Isn't that a description of gender dysphoria? :strugglin

[ReineD]

Isn't that a description of gender dysphoria? :strugglin

It appears to be.

But isn't gender dysphoria a permanent condition? Or can someone be gender dysphoric just part of the time? Maybe both are true?

I know that it takes time to build and progress towards a fuller or more complete female identity. But after this is accomplished? I was under the impression that Tri-Ess' concept of CDing is accurate. I could not understand why self-identified CDs who say they enjoy their male selves and do not want to transition, assuming they have the opportunity to dress as often as they allow themselves to, would still be so preoccupied with the CDing while in male mode as to give the impression they are unhappy or not complete unless en femme. It seems contradictory. And it still seems a sad and uncomfortable place to be.

I have read the responses to Mirani's thread (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79152&page=4) and find them enlightening.

[Mollyanne]

ReineD,

I am not going to speak for anyone here on this site but I just want to offer a possible reason for the vascilation and discontent. I believe that many Cders including myself play with the desire in our minds, to transition! we are in denial when we say we are just CDs and enjoy the feeling of the clothes! Let's face it most of the fabrics that we love so much are available in mens clothing. We want women's clothes. Not womens style clothes made for men but women's clothes. Why? We don't want to be feminine men, I think that secretly we really want to be women:2c:

Kelsy

Couldn't have said it better!!!!


:love: Mollyanne

[Badwolf]

tbh we shouldnt fragment the CD community much more by adding new labels. Remember most people choose a label because they think it suits them. Yet as you'll see people on here are constantly discussing their unique situation but I believe that should be left as a conversational note right now especially since most people here are very accepting. The people unhappy with striking a balance between their male and female mode that makes them happy with both are looking for something out of calling themselves CD's and we cant rob them of that.

As for me personally I look for female clothing because of two things. One I like the variety of materials and cuts and colors that are available (certain items of mens clothes like collared shirts have just as much variety if you look carefully) but I also have a bit of an obsession with the female form. There is something about those curves that even most women love right now. I can only imitate using female clothing and as a young CD I'm still trying to find a way to express it. If I'm sad about anything is that I havent achieved this after dressing for over 10 years and that I havent been able to share this with more people that I care for.

[JessieB]

Humans are social creatures and most CDers desperately want to interact with other people, and they want to feel accepted. When those desires are frustrated, CDing can result in feelings of isolation, loneliness, frustration and unhappiness.

CDing can be and often is a progressive compulsion. While many CDers are content with occasional dressing, many others become obsessed, wanting more and more until they begin fantasizing about "going full time". When they have to curb their enthusiasm for one reason or another, they become frustrated and unhappy. Some of them are no doubt genuine candidates for transition, but probably most of them know not of what they speak -- the reality can be quite different from the fantasy.

I think it's largely a myth that most TSs achieve some sort of tranquil fulfillment and/or happiness when they fully transition. In a perfect world, maybe they could, but this world ain't perfect. Many of them lead rather bleak existences, stigmatized and ostracized from all directions, forced into pornography and prostitution, etc. As far as I'm concerned, this is a good reason to be satisfied with CDing.

I think there is quite a bit of prejudice among TSs towards CDs. Maybe not among the enlightened ones, but generally, yeah, there is. Some of it is fairly benign, but it can be quite harsh. It's ridiculous.

[Badwolf]

Humans are social creatures and most CDers desperately want to interact with other people, and they want to feel accepted. When those desires are frustrated, CDing can result in feelings of isolation, loneliness, frustration and unhappiness.

CDing can be and often is a progressive compulsion. While many CDers are content with occasional dressing, many others become obsessed, wanting more and more until they begin fantasizing about "going full time". When they have to curb their enthusiasm for one reason or another, they become frustrated and unhappy. Some of them are no doubt genuine candidates for transition, but probably most of them know not of what they speak -- the reality can be quite different from the fantasy.

I think it's largely a myth that most TSs achieve some sort of tranquil fulfillment and/or happiness when they fully transition. In a perfect world, maybe they could, but this world ain't perfect. Many of them lead rather bleak existences, stigmatized and ostracized from all directions, forced into pornography and prostitution, etc. As far as I'm concerned, this is a good reason to be satisfied with CDing.

I think there is quite a bit of prejudice among TSs towards CDs. Maybe not among the enlightened ones, but generally, yeah, there is. Some of it is fairly benign, but it can be quite harsh. It's ridiculous.

The only part I disagree with is the sense that they are are rarely happy. I would like to believe and have seen that many are quite happy and since they had an overwhelming drive to transition fully, probably have a nice sense of accomplishment. Especially if they can transition pretty much completely (and be generally passable) they probably lead very very happy lives.

Now here is where all Trans people end up w/ a touch of unhappiness. It is very hard to be completely passable. If there is one thing I feel jealous of most genetic girls is that they have it a bit easier in being passable as males if they chose to be so and even more so without major medical procedures. This is because secondary sexual male characteristics are not considered important to an attractive sexual male identity while the female ones are. For example a mans beard is many times cited as being unattractive but the female fat distribution and breasts are important to the female sexual identity. As such if CD's wanted to pass some "frumpy" clothes would be easy to work with but it wouldn't complete the identity since most females wouldn't dress that way.

Now just to say it this is a bit of a philosophy I live by that no identity right now has it all. There are expectations on every identity that limit certain aspects of life in such a way that I believe not everyone agrees with. For example I recently read somewhere that men tend to leave their children more often than women so therefore women have it harder. But also remember that in custody battles where both parents want custody women are traditionally seen as more fit a parent because they have been successful as single parents. As such the few single fathers are slightly ostrazised and many that wish to be single fathers dont get the chance (as my father didnt). I dont know if my life would have been better with him or not but I do understand him when he complains to me that he never got a fair chance to see if he could give me a good life.

[Nicki B]

But isn't gender dysphoria a permanent condition? Or can someone be gender dysphoric just part of the time? Maybe both are true?

I think many of us can pretend it's not there some of the time? We tend to get less able to do that, as we get older? It's been described as 'trying to hold a beach ball underwater'..


I could not understand why self-identified CDs who say they enjoy their male selves and do not want to transition, assuming they have the opportunity to dress as often as they allow themselves to, would still be so preoccupied with the CDing while in male mode as to give the impression they are unhappy or not complete unless en femme. It seems contradictory. And it still seems a sad and uncomfortable place to be.


The only part I disagree with is the sense that they are are rarely happy. I would like to believe and have seen that many are quite happy and since they had an overwhelming drive to transition fully, probably have a nice sense of accomplishment. Especially if they can transition pretty much completely (and be generally passable) they probably lead very very happy lives.

Now here is where all Trans people end up w/ a touch of unhappiness. It is very hard to be completely passable.

You're both assuming that only a binary is possible - whereas, for many of us, neither option fits completely? So, not everyone is unhappy about not passing - we can find self-acceptance as what we are, rather than what others think we ought to be?

I think I pass perfectly well as a transperson - I ought to, that's what I am?



Vicky Lee (http://www.thewayoutclub.com/vicky.htm), who runs the WayOut Club, in London, begins the cabaret every weekend with 'Good evening boys, girls and in-betweenies'...

[Badwolf]

Yes I'll admit I did take it as a very binary approach.

Also I said the assumption of passing made it easier for people to be happy not that it would guarantee happiness or be the primary condition of a specific individuals happiness. I just think that its a pervasive reason for general unhappiness since it forces people to split personalities.

I'm a firm believer that two full personalities cannot inhabbit the same body well without problems. You can have two personas of the same personality that consciously balances the act but if you force yourself to maintain both in such a way that neither can find its place without the expense of the other a person can never be happy and therefore passability makes more trans-people happier since it helps them transition with less pains to whatever end they want to achieve.

For a person to really be TG or closet TG I would personally believe that there has to be something that makes the opposite sex persona more important. When one persona becomes preferable by far to the other personas are split since the person cant feel the same dressed in either clothing set. At that stage a full transition gives more benefits to living happily full time than attempting to maintain a CD balance. The direction in which the split is resolved makes a difference between some people who cross-dressed only temporarily and those who transition fully.

Why this happens in any individual is what causes people on here to be so defensive since there are many reasons all the way across the board for us to want to take any step. Farther than that people feel they need defend their reason to take part in gaining rights since motives tend to be an important part in societies understanding and treatment of the community as a whole. Theres a discussion on another board right now about how the community is too fragmented but part of the problem with trying to unify it w/o these discussions is that I believe each community has no clear leadership and is somewhat fragmented internally. As such some of the subtle truly important things only get expressed in long rants and small comments that sometimes arent very understanding.

I will have to give a shoutout here to the forum mods who considerng the volume of discussion going on here, and the constant changing geography with new members maintain a relatively stable boat. As such they are allowing this identity to form in a way that is rare. I havent seen major name calling or polarization here whih I have experienced in some other communities.

[Badwolf]

Just to say it the complicated relations between each type of sexual identity is where sexless society proponents step in. They believe that to allow people to not be identified by birth sex would help people find happiness in terms sexual roles. Yet theres also a decent argument that this could confuse straights too much and cause a certain amount of social problems other than happiness. As such the most successful fights for equality have assumed that sexual identity has to be linked somewhat to birth sex. As such being a CD is a somewhat lonely place but not specifically non existant assuming there were no expecations of sexual roles.

[Badwolf]

Sorry for ranting so much on this forum but I talk a lot and think a lot. I like to get it out but I know I sometimes make some very long rants like the one you just witnessed :)

[Badwolf]

And at risk of hijacking this forum more I think the conclusion is that the only real solution or the violation of trust made by that person is that considering we're all in a state where gender norms dont fit us and we're trying to throw them off, to have a person within the community who insults your position damages a certain level of trust necessary to really cause the entire system to change.

[Valeria]

I think it's largely a myth that most TSs achieve some sort of tranquil fulfillment and/or happiness when they fully transition. In a perfect world, maybe they could, but this world ain't perfect. Many of them lead rather bleak existences, stigmatized and ostracized from all directions, forced into pornography and prostitution, etc. As far as I'm concerned, this is a good reason to be satisfied with CDing.
Wow, that's some harsh stereotyping there.

I know of lots of happy TS women with successful and fulfilling careers. Lawyers, doctors, engineers, nurses, scientists - many professions. I certainly have not been having any problems.

As for bleak and ostracized, I have a loving life partner, a baby daughter, and more friends than ever. I'm quite happy, and so are a lot of my friends. None of my coworkers or classmates even know I have a trans history, so I certainly don't feel stigmatized. I'm pretty sure I'm not a prostitute, and none of my TS friends sell their bodies for money either.

Whoever told you that the picture you painted above is the norm for trans females was either ignorant or lying. There certainly are some who, due to a combination of being poor and uneducated, become desperate enough that they turn to prostitution - but that's true of natal females too. It's not the most likely outcome for middle-classed women of either flavor.


I think there is quite a bit of prejudice among TSs towards CDs. Maybe not among the enlightened ones, but generally, yeah, there is. Some of it is fairly benign, but it can be quite harsh. It's ridiculous.
In view of the prior paragraph, I find this mildly ironic.

[Nicki B]

Badwolf - I don't think I have two personalities? Just one, but people view me different ways, depending how I present?

I did at one time feel as if I looked different ways with the different faces, but as I've progressed, the two have very much grown together, as the few who know both faces will, I hope, agree?


I know of lots of happy TS women with successful and fulfilling careers. Lawyers, doctors, engineers, nurses, scientists - many professions.

I do, too. But you have to remember that's not the case in many other parts of the world... :sad:

[Kieron Andrew]

as the few who know both faces will, I hope, agree?

yup.....

[ReineD]

I think many of us can pretend it's not there some of the time? We tend to get less able to do that, as we get older? It's been described as 'trying to hold a beach ball underwater'..



You're both assuming that only a binary is possible - whereas, for many of us, neither option fits completely?

I am beginning to understand the concept. Thank you.

[kerrianna]

In view of the prior paragraph, I find this mildly ironic.

Yeah, I thought so too.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Still, it's about learning and educating each other. I know I have learned lots from people willing to share their experiences.

And I know there is a whole side of the world that I really don't know too much about, and who probably have some quite different experiences. I've got my hands and head full trying to figure out my own world, but I welcome the chance to learn from others and I appreciate people like Reine who wants to learn too.

In my case Reine, gender dysphoria is kind of like my asthma. Some days it's good and not really present, other days it is dibilitating. And I can never be sure exactly when that will be, but I do know that certain things put me more at risk. It's also as 'manageable' as my asthma is currently. It's always there, there's always some degree of discomfort (less so when I'm looking after my needs - and lately it's been pretty good), but right now I'd say I'm not in danger of dying from it. That's not to say it can't be life threatening if I let it get out of control. In the case of my asthma that has happened, although not for a long time. In the case of my dysphoria....well, I hope it never gets that bad.

At least I know there are steps I can take to mitigate it, to the point of being able to live freely without it hounding my days.

[Nicki B]

Vicky Lee (http://www.thewayoutclub.com/vicky.htm), who runs the WayOut Club, in London, begins the cabaret every weekend with 'Good evening boys, girls and in-betweenies'...

I picked up a flyer for a night club this evening, addressed to 'boys, girls and those who can't make their f**king minds up'.... :D




In my case Reine, gender dysphoria is kind of like my asthma.

I heard a programme on the radio the other week, about dyslexia. It struck me that if I replaced the word 'dyslexia' with the word 'trans', it made just as much sense? :)


Extreme cases are perhaps 2% of the population but up to 10% of the population has at least a mild form..
It's not a 'disorder', it's simply a 'variation from normal'.. :)
In a non-literate environment, no one even knows there's an issue?
It's highly likely to be genetic, but it's not due to a single gene - most likely their interaction.. There are twins where one suffers, one doesn't?
You can't 'grow out of it'..
Drawing the line between someone who has this and someone who doesn't is impossible, because it lies over a spectrum..
'Labelling' people as suffering from it can be useful, but also dangerous...