The Grass Isn't Greener and It doesn't Matter

[Tristan]

I've been a member of this forum for a while now, and it's been a bit of a life line for me. There are some reoccurring things that I have seen over my course here, mainly a competition that seems to exist between the MTF's and FTM's and the TS vs the CD and etc. This is a thread for unity, not a short term hip hooray love everyone type of thread, but a really a step back and think.

Animosity between FTM's, MTF's, ts, tg, cds, etc achieves nothing. Society is tough on all of us, not all of society, but the general part of it. We get no where bickering amongst each other convinced one or the other has life better. As long as the oppressed bicker among themselves, the oppressors simply have to sit back and watch.

It really does come back to the old cliche United we stand, divided we fall. The movement for acceptance and trans rights is a growing one, a developing one, and one that will not end tomorrow or maybe this year or next year or perhaps even the next. It's going to take a great number of voices rising up to achieve this. I rather use mine to fight for all of our rights, then to complain how mtfs or cd's may be better off then me.

You can dismiss me as rambling or whatever I guess, but I don't see the point in pointing out the differences where the similarities are more important.

[ZenFrost]

Here, here. :clap:

I agree Tristan, arguing amongst ourselves about who has it harder will get us nowhere. We should be working together, not dividing ourselves even further.

[Joy Carter]

"We Must All Stand Together
Or We Shall Surely Hang Alone"

[SirTrey]

Hey Tristan.....GOOD for YOU, dude....I agree wholeheartedly! :hugs: :drink:

[CaptLex]

Well said, Tristan, thanks for reminding us that we need to work together regardless of any differences because we're all in the same boat. :hugs:

You're so smart . . . and cute . . . did I ever tell you that? :koc: :love:

[Valeria]

My grass is very green... :)

[Cai]

My grass is very green... :)


Same Here! :):):):)

Good for you. :) (Really. No sarcasm intended)

Everyone has their struggles, and everyone has their benefits. There's no point in arguing over who has it worse (or, conversely, who has it better).

Tristan, you are absolutely correct - we all need to be working together. (And I so wish I had $300 in gas money to go to Topeka this weekend - Million Fag March, and I wanna be there to support!) Political recognition and change will come, but we'll have to work for it.

[Joy Carter]

"We Must All Stand Together
Or We Shall Surely Hang Alone"

I guess we hang.

[Valeria]

I really wasn't trying to claim I have it better than anyone else. I just think it's constructive to sometimes focus on the good things in life.

None of my posts are based upon my assuming that others have it better than me, and I try not to assume that I have it better than others. Aside from constructive posts about transition-related topics, I like discussing gender issues with people with a different perspective than mine (and yes, that includes trying to explore and/or explain people's motivations or feelings at times - myself included). But that's not motivated by envy or contempt, and I don't think many other members here post from such motivations.

I see a lot of pessimism here, in all of the forum sections to which I have access, and often quite a bit of bitterness. I understand that transgendered life can be challenging (as can being the SO to someone transgendered). I've been fired for being trans, and I've suffered discrimination for being lesbian. I have a lot of transition-related debt, and little current income. I'm not even recognized by the state as a legal parent to my biological daughter. And those are just some of the challenges in my life related to being LGBT. But still, life is very good and I've never been happier.

Jane is denied visitation access to her children and hasn't seen them in years (and they don't even know she's transitioned, or her legal name), and she's been facing workplace harassment and discrimination. So I doubt she's trying to claim that she has it better than others, either.

Most of us here are pretty privileged, truth be told. And I don't mean that in any inflammatory way either, but almost anyone raised in a Western country who has internet access and the time to post on gender issues has a lot of privililege in life.

I'm certainly not arguing against unified activism. Fully-inclusive ENDA was (and still is) incredibly important to me - I have taken and will continue to take actions to support its eventual passage. Politically, I'm afraid I'm pretty close to a single-issue voter at this point - if I don't like a politician's stand on important LGBT issues, I pretty much don't care what his or her other positions are.

Anyway, I think if people are going to "step back and think", then it would be good for them to appreciate the good things in their lives while they are doing that. I think that's entirely compatible with the original post - loving yourself and appreciating your life are useful steps towards loving others and not being envious or judgemental towards their lives. I think there is more strife in these forums related to bitterness than to envy or contempt, hence my response. There is also a lot of friction related to simple ignorance (and resulting insensitivity), but that's a little harder to address.

[BadassBabyBrother]

I'll agree with the guys, Awesome, Tristan. :clap:

Kehleyr, I think the thread was inspired by The Media thread where someone argued that FtM's have things much easier than the MtF's and acted very condescending towards everyone who disagreed with her. The thing is, we're all in the same sh**, it's just the depth that varies. The same problems arise in both, MtF's and FtM's; Debt due to transition, not passing no matter what the treatments, losing any rights to your kids, etc. Having a bad reaction to someone who's trying to give the view from the otherside of the fence will only give the other person a bad reputation.

(I can almost feel the flames burning my backside here...)

I do agree with you about "taking a step back and think", and I can only talk for myself, but I appreciate all the small things in my life. Thing is, when I write here about the "big things", they're usually negative things due to my diseases controlling most of my life, and it may seem like I'm bitter and pessimistic, when I, in truth, am not. The good little things have a tendency to be left in the shadow by the monsters, and maybe that's the thing with a lot of people around here. Not attacking you, just sayin'.

[DanielMacBride]

Amen, Tristan! :clap: Sing it, brother ;)

I posted ages ago on this exact same topic (too slack to go find the thread now LOL but I made similar observations about the segregation and elitism and all the infighting and how pointless it is).

I am an optimist and a fighter by nature, so I will keep singing it too, in the belief that SOMEONE, eventually, will hear it and sing it with Me ;) To be taken seriously and heard, we need to be UNITED as trans* folk of every shade - none of the HBS vs. trans vs. CD vs. TG vs. FtM vs. MtF vs. whatever, we are all trans and it is high time we learned to embrace the commonalities of our experience instead of dissecting the differences.

We ALL face hardships in our journeys, granted some more than others but that is not necessarily related to what shade of trans* we are - its all part of the HUMAN experience, too. So we should all support each other and acknowledge that we are all just different shades of the same rainbow, and that some are in different places in their lives than others and thats all okay. It all makes up the very broad range of human experience, and it should all be acknowledged, good and bad.

We do not walk an easy path - whether CD, trans* or whatever you call yourself, it is NOT easy by any stretch of the imagination, and many of us are called to make huge sacrifices in the course of walking this path. But, since I am the eternal optimist, I also believe that with the sacrifices and responsibility, come great gifts.

We have been blessed with a unique perspective and awareness in life because all transfolk to at least SOME degree have straddled the gender spectrum and bucked the binary - I would like to think that this unique and different angle of vision is put to good use rather than dissipating in petty squabbles. Judgement, prejudice and hatred is for bigots ;)

United we stand, divided we shall fall.

Daniel

[Badwolf]

Its a ramble but a valid ramble :) We're here because we dont have too many other people to talk to.

[Amy Hepker]

I am not saying it is right, but a bird of a feather flock together. I do again we should all unite and stand together for the same cause FREEDON to be who we want.

[Valeria]

Kehleyr, I think the thread was inspired by The Media thread where someone argued that FtM's have things much easier than the MtF's and acted very condescending towards everyone who disagreed with her.
I likewise assume that thread was part of the inspiration for this one. Actually, that thread was probably doomed even before a certain tempermental member derailed the thread into an argument over who passes easier. The whole basis of the thread was a complaint that trans males get better treatment, followed by arguing about who gets more or better coverage.

Complaining that someone else gets a favorable article is simply not constructive. Even if you feel that trans males are more likely to get favorable coverage (when they get any coverage at all), or that trans females get more attention, the problem is not that trans males are getting good press or that trans females are getting more TV shows and documentaries. The problem is that trans males often get ignored (in part because some people view them as less sensational, and in part because a lot of people still have the misconception that trans males are extremely rare), and that trans females sometimes get treated as freaks. It's not a zero sum game - I'd like all trans people to get more coverage and more sensitive coverage.

And yes, Plain Jane's arguing that *all* trans males pass given enough testosterone wasn't constructive either. (And I say that as someone that considers her a close friend - I've known her for many years.) Quite honestly, I don't think Jane has that much experience with trans guys - she's more familiar with predominantly female forums, and she leads a pretty heteronormative life. Sorry, hun.

That having been said, I don't think it's unreasonable to calmly examine differences in something like media coverage, and to try to explain why they exist. From my admittedly feminist point of view, I think there really is a lot of misogyny amongst the press, politicians, and even gay activists, and it leads to some of the above effects. The argument trumpeted most loudly against gender-identity inclusive ENDA was scaremongering about "men in dresses" in the ladies room. Oh horrors! Also, in LGBT forums and blogs, I can't count how many references I saw to "cutting off dicks" (which isn't even medically accurate, btw) - because a certain percentage of guys simple can't get over that concept.

Personally, I think the invisibility of trans males and the transphobic comments directed at trans females in the political arena are entirely interrelated, and I think that to counter them we must understand them. Misogyny does exist, and to a certain extent middle-aged white men do rule the world. At the risk of really annoying people, a certain faction of "straight-acting gay guys" were willing to sell out trans people because of their own considerable transphobia - most of it directed at trans females because of their personal biases. Such people ignore trans males because they simply don't care. Part of why they are more upset with "men in the women's bathroom" than "women in the mens's bathroom" is that they view woman as weak victims. Part of why some gay men say "I just can't relate to the cause of anyone that would cut off their dick" (which leads to abandoning the fight for gender protections) is that many people define manhood by the presence of a penis, and womanhood by the absence of one (which is kind of a problem for all of us). Female genitals aren't important, so they don't care what you do with them.

Of course, trans men get "why can't you just be the butchest butch ever?" and "we are losing all our strong women" from certain female factions, and lots of trans people (male and female) get "why can't you just be gay?" from their parents. So I'm certainly not saying that gay men obsessed with our "removing" our penises are the only issue. But my experience has been that assimilationist gay men have a lot of power (particularly financial power) within the LGBT movement, and they provided the most outspoken advocates in favor of abandoning trans people and passing the stripped down version of ENDA. Notably, the only out lesbian in Congress was the only national politician reliably behind "inclusive ENDA or bust". Meanwhile, HRC, which relies on several hundred dollars per plate fund raisers and deep-pocketed donors, was our least trustworthy "ally".

Eh. I'm actually much more interested in LGBT rights issues *and* feminism than anything commonly discussed in these forums, and I'm afraid that while I consider my viewpoints to be quite moderate (I certainly know people more extreme), I probably come across as a fanatical extremist. Sorry about the rant. But I don't think that not talking about these types of subjects is the right solution. Though I'll admit that there are plenty of things I don't discuss on these forums that I'd like to, because while I think I might get some enlightening responses, I fear getting flamed in mass. Honestly, any post I make here that touches upon *anything* other than strictly trans female topics, I half expect to get flamed. Admitedly, that's probably because many of the topics that interest me are inherently controversial or challenging. So, since I really don't like confrontation, I don't actually post as much as I would otherwise (though I've posted a lot recently).

Anyway, absolutely *NONE* of this post should be read as implying that I think that trans males have it easier, or that trans males don't get discriminated against, or that trans males aren't victims of hate crimes. They do. Honestly, I think I consider trans males and trans females to be more alike than a huge majority of the members of this forum. I think that differences between the two groups do exist, but they generally have external factors that explain them. For instance, bottom surgery for trans females really is superior right now, in terms of effectiveness and cost, and that does affect our outlooks on transition. That's just reality - I don't see any point in pretending otherwise.

But I don't believe in biological essentialism, and I think that we are extremely similar, independent of the external forces that constrain or socialize us at times. That shouldn't be a controversial viewpoint, but I honestly think a lot of people here internally think otherwise, and it comes through in the subtext of their posts.

Also, people aren't groups, so while it can be informative to look for trends within groups, it is always necessary to remember that everyone is unique. I get that. But I still like to look for trends and patterns.

Anyway, I think that it's fair to say that the root cause of the strife in that thread appears to be a combination of bitterness and insensitivity rooted in ignorance. So while I think that the original post is quite good (I didn't actually disagree with it), I still think that part of the key is for people to become less discontent with their lot in life.

Whatever. I told Gypsy Karen long ago that part of why I have remained in this forum is to try to counter some of the pessimism I see here, and to let people know that no matter how bad it seems, it can get better. My first post in this thread is hardly the first time I've tried to stress that life can be good. I'm sorry it was seemingly interpreted differently than that (and I don't see how "I guess we hang" can be taken otherwise, in the context of this thread). I think that the most positive way to accept that "the grass isn't greener" elsewhere is to accept that your grass is actually pretty darn green, and that's really all I meant by my first post. I suppose an alternative is to accept that everyone else's grass is brown and dying too, but I just don't see that as being preferable.

I'm certainly not opposed to presenting a unified front.

[GypsyKaren]

Interesting topic, and of course I agree that we all must work together and such, it's like saying "God bless apple pie", no one would disagree with that. Is there sniping and such within us? Of course there is, just like there is in any group, my four dogs included. I'm sure that some of it is intended, but I think for the most part it comes from ignorance of the misinformed, people just don't know.

So, what to do? We educate and we lead by example, something I think we do rather well right here. Yeah, we have our danders going at times, but by and large there's none of the sniping here like other parts of the forum, even the open sections are a safe haven. That's probably the biggest reason why I'm so proud of our little corner of the forum, and why I appreciate so much your help and input here, we all make it work together...and besides, snipers need beware, I have a bigger rifle!

Karen Starlene :star:

[Dawn D.]

Kehleyr,

I'll join with your optimism and call that the grass is pretty green here too! Yeah, like the rest of us out there I have dark periods. However, I try my best to get over them as quickly as is possible. I much more enjoy being focused on the positive rather than the negative.

As for "sniping" in these forums, well, for myself when I see it happen, I want to believe that it happens because those people are in a dark period of their lives. However, with the oral prowess of someone such as yourself, I also think that these same people can begin to see that it is OK to have open discussions on sensitive topics. Topics that really were never meant to divide, rather, they were meant to bring about more awareness. After all, isn't awareness what the whole "Transwhatever Identity" needs?

In order to gain awareness, it is only my thought (right or wrong) that we (this community) needs first, to understand tolerance. Set aside the bitterness, open your mind and allow others to speak freely without putting the poor souls (that dare to bring up a topic that is easily misconstrued) down and/or pummeled to the point that arguments develop into outright flaming diatribe and send some of us scurrying for cover never to reveal or share a thought we have again in public. I am not saying, we should not bring dissenting viewpoints to the table. I am saying, we should be more tolerant in reading someone's post before responding to them. Sometimes what is being posted as a topic really isn't meant to bring about division, M2F vs. F2M, TS vs. CD vs.TG etc., etc. Whatever topic it is, may just be an observation from one individual that may or may not be accurate. In any case, more civil dialog, for or against will bring a better understanding and develop into tolerance which breeds awareness and ultimately acceptance.

For the most part I am an optimist, though I must interject a negative observation. There will always be some disagreement within any community. Whether it be those interested in cars, stars or bars. Differences of opinion will be there. For this community though, I would hope that we all have enough understanding for each other of how difficult life is in being who we are already. Engaging in and having these punishing arguments and self-segregating theories among ourselves only serves to help the cause of those that do not want to understand us nor be tolerant of us.




Dawn

[Kieron Andrew]

it's like saying "God bless apple pie", no one would disagree with that.

Wanna bet!! i hate apple pie!, but i agree with the theory :heehee:

[CaptLex]

Wanna bet!! i hate apple pie!, but i agree with the theory :heehee:
Are you being difficult again? :gg:


In order to gain awareness, it is only my thought (right or wrong) that we (this community) needs first, to understand tolerance. Set aside the bitterness, open your mind and allow others to speak freely without putting the poor souls (that dare to bring up a topic that is easily misconstrued) down and/or pummeled to the point that arguments develop into outright flaming diatribe and send some of us scurrying for cover never to reveal or share a thought we have again in public. I am not saying, we should not bring dissenting viewpoints to the table. I am saying, we should be more tolerant in reading someone's post before responding to them. Sometimes what is being posted as a topic really isn't meant to bring about division, M2F vs. F2M, TS vs. CD vs.TG etc., etc. Whatever topic it is, may just be an observation from one individual that may or may not be accurate. In any case, more civil dialog, for or against will bring a better understanding and develop into tolerance which breeds awareness and ultimately acceptance.
I agree with you, Dawn, but I wonder who you might be referring to - if anyone in particular. I have no problem with different points of view, but when I see some people toss around opinions (based on limited info) as gospel truth, then I have to speak up and make sure people know that's not always the case. And I don't think I've ever been un-civil, but sometimes just by disagreeing with something someone apparently has carved in stone (with no room for discussion), the fireworks start. Damned if I do and damned if I don't sometimes. :doh:

So what's the answer? Speak up and let someone have a fit because their "truth" has been challenged? Or stay quiet in the interest of peace and tolerance while allowing false information to continue? We're here to educate as well as learn, right? So I think those who don't have all the info should sit back and learn a bit more before they spread the wrong facts.

[Kieron Andrew]

Are you being difficult again? :gg:


uhhh nope not this time, its the truth, i hate the stuff!:heehee:

[Cai]

Kehleyr, please don't ever back off from posting your opinion. I always appreciate it - you have such well-thought-out viewpoints and arguments, and you're always willing to listen to the other sides of a debate. (You are both sides of the debate here!)

I think you make a number of excellent points. There are differences for trans men and trans women, and there will always be.

I think Tristan's (and your) point is that we need to calmly face and overcome these differences in order to move forward.

[Dawn D.]

Well, hello Kieron! My post is not aimed at any one individual in particular. It's mostly a generalization of my thoughts of when I see a misunderstood (by my perception only) response to any particular thread. It seems that when this occurs that dander get raised and hackles flaired. It's a descending spiral effect into a chasm of nothingness. In other words, things that we may be wasting a lot of energy on.

And, I agree with you! Bad facts are bad facts and should be challenged. Though, it is difficult to attempt making a point to someone without them taking offence to your/my dissenting view, simply because all we have here is our written words and not much of a way to show our true emotions in the way we respond. Which can change ones perception of what was actually meant by disagreeing. Hence, avoiding that downward spiral.

Is it possible that we sometimes read too much into what some one writes in these forums? I tend to think so. Even so, there's nothing wrong with challenging someone else's ideas. As long as we are civil. No, Kieron, I don't believe I have ever read anything from you that I would put in the un-civilized category. I think, from what I have read of your's, you have a very unique insight and a (from this girls opinion) desire to help all. How can that be un-civilized? Thanks for your response!



Dawn

p.s. Sorry, Capt Lex. I answered this post to Kieron and it was actually supposed to be to you! Even so, I would still answer the same. I feel your just as civil and your intent is pure!

[melissaK]

well Tristan's title about green grass not mattering made the thread look like a fun little read . . . and then I got to kehleyr's post and I found a new way to be late coming back to work from lunch :heehee:. . . and in the end it was a fun little read.

hugs,
lissa

[CaptLex]

p.s. Sorry, Capt Lex. I answered this post to Kieron and it was actually supposed to be to you! Even so, I would still answer the same. I feel your just as civil and your intent is pure!
It's okay, Dawn, I actually got a chuckle out of that, I was gonna let Kieron take the blame for me. :heehee: It's not hard to get us confused - I think we're the guys with the biggest mouths here . . . but his eyes are prettier. :bs:

Anyway, I appreciate what you said. :)

[Kieron Andrew]

It's okay, Dawn, I actually got a chuckle out of that, I was gonna let Kieron take the blame for me. :heehee: It's not hard to get us confused - I think we're the guys with the biggest mouths here . . . but his eyes are prettier. :bs:
are not!

Thats ok Dawn, we had figured out thats what happened....i dont mind being mistaken for him, just as long as he doesnt mind :heehee:

[Nicki B]

Animosity between FTM's, MTF's, ts, tg, cds, etc achieves nothing. Society is tough on all of us, not all of society, but the general part of it. We get no where bickering amongst each other convinced one or the other has life better. As long as the oppressed bicker among themselves, the oppressors simply have to sit back and watch.

It really does come back to the old cliche United we stand, divided we fall. The movement for acceptance and trans rights is a growing one, a developing one, and one that will not end tomorrow or maybe this year or next year or perhaps even the next. It's going to take a great number of voices rising up to achieve this. I rather use mine to fight for all of our rights, then to complain how mtfs or cd's may be better off then me.

:yt:

I agree completely. :)


Edit - but perhaps not with the thread title. Infighting and division DOES matter?

[CaptLex]

i dont mind being mistaken for him, just as long as he doesnt mind :heehee:
That's just 'cause you want all the girls that keep hitting on me. :tongueout


I agree completely. :)

Edit - but perhaps not with the thread title. Infighting and division DOES matter?
Yeah, the infighting and subsequent division are still a problem, and it seems like we'll continue to have that. :doh:

I guess the people who should read these threads probably don't, so it's like preaching to the choir when people make a good point like Tristan did here. This thread was just started yesterday and already today (again!) there was more fighting. I'm not just referring to disagreements and differences of opinion - I mean, rude, sarcastic and cutting remarks. There's no need for that . . . especially in a place where we share so much in common and can use each other's support and understanding. :straightface:

[ZenFrost]

Edit - but perhaps not with the thread title. Infighting and division DOES matter?

I think he meant it as "It doesn't matter who's got it 'easier' or 'harder.'"


I agree with you Captain, this is a place for support and understanding, not cutting and offensive remarks.

[ZenFrost]

For the record I NEVER said anyone had it easier (never mind "much easier").

That's true, you didn't say that. Deacon was paraphrasing you rather than actually quoting exactly what you said, which was:


It's NOT that simple for MtF's.

And since the words 'simple' and 'easy' are synonyms, I can see how he'd paraphrase that as:


FtM's have things much easier than the MtF's

But that wasn't exactly what you said, and I think it's being cleared up now. :)



I said in general FtM's get a better response to HRT.

You didn't actually used the words 'in general,' you did however say:


once you've been on T long enough you can just disappear off the radar.

Which seems like more of a blanket statement about FtMs and isn't entirely accurate. Regardless of whether or not you'd intended it differently, it did spark some things which I'm sure, as Deacon stated, inspired this thread.

[Badwolf]

I think he meant it as "It doesn't matter who's got it 'easier' or 'harder.'"


I agree with you Captain, this is a place for support and understanding, not cutting and offensive remarks.

Heh more specifically I think is meant is that to really see who has it harder in an intolerant society you have to go case by case. To belittle an individuals hardships whatever side of the hypothetical fence is to open up a world of arguements no one wants to see. So the grass on either side has its flaws if you know it well and your grasses flaws are just as valid as someone elses. And to connect it to here with this community thats supposed to be friendly to all Trans-folks we need to remember that most of us came here for a reason. Lets respect and support other people that are here for the same fertilizer to fix their broken lawns :)

[CaptLex]

All the articles I've ever read said that FtM's get better HRT response.
All the websites and forums I've ever been at said the same.
All the books I've read said the same.
All the medical professionals I've spoken with said the same.

Notice a trend here? So you're saying all those sources are wrong? It's fact.
Not totally wrong, just not correct 100% of the time. Generally speaking HRT response is better among FtMs, but better doesn't mean perfect and flawless. There are plenty of us that don't pass even after our voices have changed and we've sprouted facial hair. Not everyone is the same - for some people it takes a lot longer for sufficient changes to take place.

Also, remember that hormones "give" but they don't "take away", which is why facial surgery is usually necessary for more MtFs than FtMs. But, for example, some of us never grow Adam's apples, even after years of HRT.


You're just looking to scapegoat someone and I just happen to be available huh?
See . . . this is where I have a problem. Why do you have to go there - making accusations like that? :raisedeyebrow:


I've told the truth and you refuse to believe me. What more can I do?
You can drop the attitude, for starters.

You've told the facts as you've heard them, that doesn't make it irrefutable truth. I merely pointed out that what you've heard isn't always the case - no need to get defensive about it. Aren't we all here to learn from each other? Or maybe you're only interested in showing how much you know. :idontknow:

[Tamara Croft]

It really does come back to the old cliche United we stand, divided we fall. Seems this fell on deaf ears.... why bother Tristan? There's always going to be someone who thinks they know everything and won't budge.... :rolleyes: and I thought the MTF forum was bad... I thought this section was different, I guess I was wrong!!!

[Badwolf]

Seems this fell on deaf ears.... why bother Tristan? There's always going to be someone who thinks they know everything and won't budge.... :rolleyes: and I thought the MTF forum was bad... I thought this section was different, I guess I was wrong!!!

To have people mention it and applaud it doesn't show deafness but the conversation will continue till people are happy with the entire situation because the mob is always fickle. :/

[Nicki B]

I think he meant it as "It doesn't matter who's got it 'easier' or 'harder.'"

I agree with you Captain, this is a place for support and understanding, not cutting and offensive remarks.

Zen, I guess I was trying to make a point that's been borne out?

What is important, as Lex says, is we should regard each other as equals, with an equal right to be treated with respect. Then it's up to you whether you lose that respect?

Unfortunately many people here seem unwilling or unable to do this - so the point needs to be made - over and over again.. :sad:

[Tristan]

Seems this fell on deaf ears.... why bother Tristan? There's always going to be someone who thinks they know everything and won't budge.... :rolleyes: and I thought the MTF forum was bad... I thought this section was different, I guess I was wrong!!!

Yeah I give up.... I'm not fighting about this bs any longer. I have better things to do with my time. Despite what ignorant jerks I may be helping I will continue doing my part to ensure rights for all trans people.

[Badwolf]

I've been a member of this forum for a while now, and it's been a bit of a life line for me. There are some reoccurring things that I have seen over my course here, mainly a competition that seems to exist between the MTF's and FTM's and the TS vs the CD and etc. This is a thread for unity, not a short term hip hooray love everyone type of thread, but a really a step back and think.

Animosity between FTM's, MTF's, ts, tg, cds, etc achieves nothing. Society is tough on all of us, not all of society, but the general part of it. We get no where bickering amongst each other convinced one or the other has life better. As long as the oppressed bicker among themselves, the oppressors simply have to sit back and watch.

It really does come back to the old cliche United we stand, divided we fall. The movement for acceptance and trans rights is a growing one, a developing one, and one that will not end tomorrow or maybe this year or next year or perhaps even the next. It's going to take a great number of voices rising up to achieve this. I rather use mine to fight for all of our rights, then to complain how mtfs or cd's may be better off then me.

You can dismiss me as rambling or whatever I guess, but I don't see the point in pointing out the differences where the similarities are more important.

Tristan dont get discouraed because some people have their own issues. This is a place where people come to work on their own issues with the community. I see certain arguments as enlightening for the most part as long as people are dedicated in growing and furthering the cause as a whole I part take in them and try to put in my :2c:.

If there is anything that can be taken from small arguments here is that it will allow a stronger identity to form since it will form bonds and enlighten more people about the harder parts of any identity. As long as the people at the head are fighting for general rights and lead people to be civil debate is a very healthy part of a communities self identity, even if sometimes some misunderstandings arise, there will be benefits for all and we need to make sure we support rational leaders.

[Badwolf]

Yeah I give up.... I'm not fighting about this bs any longer. I have better things to do with my time. Despite what ignorant jerks I may be helping I will continue doing my part to ensure rights for all trans people.

Ah just read this and I'm happy. To start focusing on who has it better is a different argument than making the argument that we all deserve better.

As such we can have fun sharing here hopefully and discussing more than fighting. And hopefully create a new identity for the larger community...not just a subset of the entire community on this forum.

[Valeria]

Jane, you should well know that the answer to ANY question about hormones ends with the qualifier YMMV. You also know that hormones tend to work slower and are generally less effective the older you are. You also know that there are other factors that can affect gendering. That's all true for the guys too.

It is true that testosterone can grant facial hair and alter your vocal cords - both of which are powerful secondary sexual characteristics. Estrogen can't reverse those effects. All true, and the guys here all realize that. But YMMV, and with electrolysis and voice therapy we can get pretty good results too.

I didn't grow any facial hair at all on most of my face. I never had to shave daily (not even when I was living as a woman), and I couldn't have grown an actual mustache or beard if I'd gone a year without shaving. I got called "miss" pretty often in "boy mode". And that was with a lot more than 2 years of testosterone. If I'd been 5' 1" instead of 5' 9", I'd probably have been totally screwed as far as "passing" as a man. Now, I might have been able to "unclock" myself with my voice - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have been initially midgendered constantly.

The bottom line is that Lex has been on hormones for a couple of years, and (IIRC) he's had his ovaries removed, and he still doesn't get gendered correctly 100% of the time. Some women really do have an easier time reaching the point of getting gendered correctly 100% of the time - and even if it is more often the reverse, I'm not sure that it matters too much what the ratio is.

[Valeria]

Despite what ignorant jerks I may be helping I will continue doing my part to ensure rights for all trans people.
I don't think calling people "ignorant jerks" helps, incidentally.

FWIW, I know for a fact that Jane has actually testified before her state assembly in an attempt to get a bill protecting transgendered rights passed, and she often calls or writes congressmen and other politicians, along with news outlets, advocating for trans rights.

As to the other person that has recently drawn considerable criticism for her statements in another thread or two, her posts indicate that her background includes being in a gang and hanging out with women who work the streets, so to speak. I'm pretty certain that I'm coming from a position of privilege relative to her, so I'm not going to rush to judgement over her social graces.

Anyway, I think that lots of people here (of all flavors of birth sex and gender identity) need to get a little more tolerant of other people AND of statements made more out of ignorance than malice.

[Sharon]

I just think that we need to calm down and accept the fact that arguing and making accusations do little to open another person's eyes to your point of view.

For what it is worth, I think making blanket statements about any segment of society is foolhearty, especially when you are arguing with a person who exists in that segment.

So, in case you aren't following my drift, any further antogonistic posts will be removed and the person who places it will be locked out of this thread.

[Genifer Teal]

There is a reason the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. All the sh*t that gets dumped on it acts like fertilizer and makes it greener. lol

Gen

[Sejd]

I catch myself in being judgemental on others all the time, and I hate it. Putting everyone into safe well defined boxes clearly supports a judgemental attitude. So, yah I'm for all of us thinking less of labels and camps or groups and just helping each other.
Good thread sister
hugs
Sejd

[ZenFrost]

Good thread sister

Tristan's a guy. :rolleyes:

[CaptLex]

Tristan's a guy. :rolleyes:

You mean there are *gasp* guys in here?! :eek:

But this is the TS section, what are they doing here? :idontknow:

[ZenFrost]

You mean there are *gasp* guys in here?! :eek:

But this is the TS section, what are they doing here? :idontknow:

Yes Mr. Sarcasm. :dry: :slap:

[CaptLex]

Yes Mr. Sarcasm. :dry: :slap:

You're slapping me again . . . this is true love. :love:

[ZenFrost]

You're slapping me again . . . this is true love. :love:

No, it's 'to blave.'

Sorry for steering the thread off topic. I'll go in the corner now.

[Nicki B]

You mean there are *gasp* guys in here?! :eek:

Just watch where you're looking, okay? :heehee:

[Michelle Amante]

Well...I say damn the mob and let them hang me, but at least I'll speak first before they do. I was hated (and I mean literally hated) by lots of kids at almost every school that I went to, just because I'm half english (white) and half Greek/Italian (olive). Not because I was trannie or femme, but because of my ethnic origins. I read that the same thing happened to Jessica Alba. So, one could argue that life is rough on us all just because we were born into this world. It seems like everyone should be able to identify with everybody else, simply because we were all born into a life that, for some strange reason, is out to make our existance difficult, to say the least. My life was/is hard...but your life was/is too (for whatever reason it might be). It just seems to be the way of mankind. I realize that this discussion was about being accepted by society, more or less, but hardships are hardships...and all of us have those, so we should be able to hold each other up and not be so concerned about who's problems are bigger or who is more accepted by society. And, it's kind of hard to hold each other up if you're in the middle of a big argument (at least it seems that way to me). I've had my say...now, the hanging my begin...hehe. :P

[Cai]

Well...I say damn the mob and let them hang me, but at least I'll speak first before they do. I was hated (and I mean literally hated) by lots of kids at almost every school that I went to, just because I'm half english (white) and half Greek/Italian (olive). Not because I was trannie or femme, but because of my ethnic origins. I read that the same thing happened to Jessica Alba. So, one could argue that life is rough on us all just because we were born into this world. It seems like everyone should be able to identify with everybody else, simply because we were all born into a life that, for some strange reason, is out to make our existance difficult, to say the least. My life was/is hard...but your life was/is too (for whatever reason it might be). It just seems to be the way of mankind. I realize that this discussion was about being accepted by society, more or less, but hardships are hardships...and all of us have those, so we should be able to hold each other up and not be so concerned about who's problems are bigger or who is more accepted by society. And, it's kind of hard to hold each other up if you're in the middle of a big argument (at least it seems that way to me). I've had my say...now, the hanging my begin...hehe. :P

I think you make an excellent point. Life is hard. But we're supposed to be for each other, not make it harder.

[Sejd]

Hi ZenFrpost
As I was saying
"Right on Bro"
ha ha
hugs
Sejd

[CaptLex]

I realize that this discussion was about being accepted by society, more or less, but hardships are hardships...and all of us have those, so we should be able to hold each other up and not be so concerned about who's problems are bigger or who is more accepted by society. And, it's kind of hard to hold each other up if you're in the middle of a big argument (at least it seems that way to me). I've had my say...now, the hanging my begin...hehe. :P
Hey, Michelle

We don't hang people here . . . we just make them walk the plank. :heehee:

And you're absolutely right, so no hanging or keelhauling - I'll offer you some rum, instead. :drink: A very nice first post, by the way. Welcome to the forum. :wave:

[CaptLex]

I find it interesting that on a crossdresser forum (check the title ;) )
Deborah, honey, check again . . .

"We are a dedicated forum for the transgendered, their family and friends."

It's not just about crossdressers anymore - check the fine print. ;)

[Fire Falcon]

Fundamentally, humans are built to kill one another, not work together... So naturally, any group of people that have ANY sort of differences (and even ones that don't!) will torch-and-pitchfork one another from time to time.

Sad, but true. Best thing one can do is stick up for one's self, one's friends, try not to get too huffy and carry on.

[Badwolf]

To be more specific we're built to work together with people similar to us towards a common goal. Normally that goal is to solve a collective problem ex. any problem or problematic "other". It is that last part that is very often the problem. We'll group together against that "other" sometimes without reason.



Fundamentally, humans are built to kill one another, not work together... So naturally, any group of people that have ANY sort of differences (and even ones that don't!) will torch-and-pitchfork one another from time to time.

Sad, but true. Best thing one can do is stick up for one's self, one's friends, try not to get too huffy and carry on.

[Nicki B]

To be more specific we're built to work together with people similar to us towards a common goal. Normally that goal is to solve a collective problem ex. any problem or problematic "other". It is that last part that is very often the problem. We'll group together against that "other" sometimes without reason.

You think?

Then why doesn't the trans community band together against common forms of 'oppression'? :idontknow:

Surely, for small groups such as us, it's easier to vent our frustrations with the way we think society perceives us against each other, rather than starting a fight we instinctively think we can't win?

It was only once the Gay Pride movement reached an apparent critical mass that they started to make headway... Actually the people they first needed to convince were themselves, that they could demand respect and acceptance?

[Vaerise]

Perhaps it is the depression that comes with GID.. some transpeople get stuck in the cycle and never get out of it... convincing themselves they always have it worse than others.


There are also so many different views on transexualism within the TS community...

I dunno if TS community will ever make critical mass.. seeing as the T = transition. Most that move on never want to look back. They rather remain stealth

[Badwolf]

Sometimes the "other" is closer than one would hope for but you hit it right there. It might not be that exact reason but most of the people starting up problems here have their own problems with themselves or the world that they take it out here.



Surely, for small groups such as us, it's easier to vent our frustrations with the way we think society perceives us against each other, rather than starting a fight we instinctively think we can't win?

[Michelle Amante]

Thank you for not hanging me or making me walk the plank (there might be sharks in the water). I visit a lot of forums and people always seem to be at each other's throats over such little things. You seem like a nice group of people though. And, thank you for the thoughtful gesture CaptLex...I think I'll have that drink now. :drink:

[Melanie85]

I've been a member of this forum for a while now, and it's been a bit of a life line for me. There are some reoccurring things that I have seen over my course here, mainly a competition that seems to exist between the MTF's and FTM's and the TS vs the CD and etc. This is a thread for unity, not a short term hip hooray love everyone type of thread, but a really a step back and think.

Animosity between FTM's, MTF's, ts, tg, cds, etc achieves nothing. Society is tough on all of us, not all of society, but the general part of it. We get no where bickering amongst each other convinced one or the other has life better. As long as the oppressed bicker among themselves, the oppressors simply have to sit back and watch.

It really does come back to the old cliche United we stand, divided we fall. The movement for acceptance and trans rights is a growing one, a developing one, and one that will not end tomorrow or maybe this year or next year or perhaps even the next. It's going to take a great number of voices rising up to achieve this. I rather use mine to fight for all of our rights, then to complain how mtfs or cd's may be better off then me.

You can dismiss me as rambling or whatever I guess, but I don't see the point in pointing out the differences where the similarities are more important.

WTF I didn't get the memo about this....

That really sucks I used to sort of dislike CDs for a short time.

We need more FtMs... I hope they don't get chased away by "you have it easier" bullcrap. And why stop at gender? why not divide by age? After all, hormones have reduced effects after a certain age and it gets harder to un-program gender socialisation.
Or divide by passability, socioeconomic income, race, sexual orientation, choice of no-op or no-ho or all the way...............................
because all that "your peeps have it so easy" doesn't apply when YOU are the exception to that supposed easy-ness.