Acceptance

[Mindys91503]

After reading many posts and even doing some searches of old posts and I am finding that while people want their choices to be accepted they are unwilling to accept others.

Everyone has their own motivations for choosing to dress as the opposet gender. For some it is to be as feminine as possible for some it is the thrill for some it is humiliation. What ever the reason is they are are valid and should be treated like that.

I remember a thread awhile back posted by Pinkpantyhose about tasks that he was performing and how he was told that people were made to be unwilling participants, these tasks did more to hurt the case than help it, etc. The point was also brought up that this should not have been in the public area because it gave the wrong impression of crossdressers to those that might be lookng for information. So let's address some of these points.


Employees and others are unwilling participants: Every time a crossdressers goes out in public those around them are unwilling participants. Get all dolled up and goto a place to eat the waiter or waitress has to participate in your chosen activity. If you feel strongly about this stay home but do not condemn others for carrying out their chosen expression of crossdressing.

Some object to his choice of outfits while out in public: And yet we have no problem with others choosing to dress in a trampy manner.

Some object to others motivation: It should not matter why someone chooses to dress as the opposet gender there should be support for them in their choice. Everyone has their own reasons to crossdress and while we want to be accepted should we also be accepting of others. Some do crossdress to express a feminine side while others do it for sexual gratification and still others do it for the humiliation and thrill of it. Their motivation should not be of importantce, how would you feel if your motivation for crossdressing was questioned?

Some say that posts like the example above bring a bad name to crossdressers and should not be in the public area: I feel that like everyone's individual expression this is one aspect of crossdressing and has a valid place in the public forum. If crossdressers are concerned about their public image on a forum like this then do away with any and all posts that discuss the deception of a spouse or doing this behind a spouses back. Do away with posts talking about hiding this behavior as those will do more damage than an honest expression or details given of one's activities. Remember if the goal is acceptance then honesty is a must. Society tends to view those crossdressers that deceive their spouses as liers and selfish both of which are looked down on and yet it is discussed and encouraged on this board. Pinkpantyhose's post did less to hurt the cause of crossdressers than the many posts about hiding it from a spouse. I see it this way, a married crossdresser has only two choices if they are to be honorable. 1. Tell the spouse and live with the consequences or 2. Stop the activity. Dishonesty has hurt the crossdressers chances of acceptance much more than a man dressed in a schoolgirl uniform at the mall or trying n wedding gowns or even eating at hooters in a hooters girl uniform. So maybe we need to focus on honsety more and activities less when condemning someone.

To me (and I hate to say it this way) there is an extreme amount of hypocracy exhibited by crossdressers. They want acceptance but do not want to be accepting of others. So maybe crossdressers will not get the acceptance that they so long for until they can be accepting of others within their own group. And honestly that is as it should be, why should the world be accepting of those of us the crossdress when we cannot accept others that do the same thing in a different way.

Just my :2c:

[KandisTX]

I find it very interesting that there are only 3 other posts from you on this forum, and they are all in theads that have long since been closed. In reading all of them, it would appear that YOU would fall into the same fetishistic style of dresser, and that is of course what we can only assume since you have not posted any further details about yourself or any posts regarding your style or reasons for dressing.

The post you are referring to is NOT about crossdressing, it is about someone that is a fetishist and is only doing what they are "ordered to do", they themselves are the ones that are causing these people to be unwilling participants in their world of playing games. I read through every post on that thread, and yes, many of us did disagree with that persons actions and it did offend quite a few of us. MOST of us are crossdressers, we do not do so because we are "ordered" to do so, we do it because it is one part of the whole of us.

"They want acceptance but do not want to be accepting of others. So maybe crossdressers will not get the acceptance that they so long for until they can be accepting of others within their own group. And honestly that is as it should be, why should the world be accepting of those of us the crossdress when we cannot accept others that do the same thing in a different way."

Statements like this one are more damaging than anything else. Take for instance something along the lines of the man who crossdresses for his sexual kicks and while dressed he is stalking your child or your spouse for the means of his twisted mind. Are we to be "accepting" of those actions? Do not tell us that we have to accept someone if we do not agree with their reasons for dressing.

[Amy Hepker]

I do believe that most of us do have an open mind of others. I see a lot of people that are looking to be someone. I one time used to get turned on by dressing in girls clothing, but now it is more of a way of life that I enjoy. The sexual enjoyment is gone, but the feeling of being someone that I really am has taken over.

Crossdressers come from all walks of life and they can be male or female. I do believe that all crossdressers are more thoughtful of others and do care what others think. That is why so many of us stay in the closet so long. We are afraid of what others may think or do.

Is it fair for us not to be who we really are??? We are not out to kill people or to hurt people, we just want to find ourselves, and maybe, just maybe, this is not what we really wanted either. But what other way are we going to find out if we do not croosdress to find out.

[O2B Barbara]

I hate to admit that I may be a bit slow on the uptake here but I am having a hard time deciphering what is being said in the origal post. Did I just get put down for being a crossdresser and wanting others to accept me as I am?

How can I expect to be accepted by others if I am going to judge their reasons for dressing, or not dressing? Another persons reason may not be mine, that does not make them in the wrong at all, just different than I am. That also does not make me wrong either.

Staying in the closet is not the same as lying in my opinion as the reason may simply be fear. Possibly out of consideration for another person is the reason. Being in the closet is not wrong.

I am not sure if I followed this thread or not, please set me straight if I didn't.

[Mindys91503]

I find it very interesting that there are only 3 other posts from you on this forum, and they are all in theads that have long since been closed. In reading all of them, it would appear that YOU would fall into the same fetishistic style of dresser, and that is of course what we can only assume since you have not posted any further details about yourself or any posts regarding your style or reasons for dressing.

What differaance does that make in the scope of things?

The post you are referring to is NOT about crossdressing, it is about someone that is a fetishist and is only doing what they are "ordered to do", they themselves are the ones that are causing these people to be unwilling participants in their world of playing games. I read through every post on that thread, and yes, many of us did disagree with that persons actions and it did offend quite a few of us. MOST of us are crossdressers, we do not do so because we are "ordered" to do so, we do it because it is one part of the whole of us.
You are missing the point.. Crossdressing has many different outlets and takes many shapes and yet we turn on our own.

"They want acceptance but do not want to be accepting of others. So maybe crossdressers will not get the acceptance that they so long for until they can be accepting of others within their own group. And honestly that is as it should be, why should the world be accepting of those of us the crossdress when we cannot accept others that do the same thing in a different way."

Statements like this one are more damaging than anything else. Take for instance something along the lines of the man who crossdresses for his sexual kicks and while dressed he is stalking your child or your spouse for the means of his twisted mind. Are we to be "accepting" of those actions? Do not tell us that we have to accept someone if we do not agree with their reasons for dressing.

Stalking is illegal behavior and predators need to be dealt with.. Get real that is taking it to the extreme. And yet you failed to address the issue of lying to ones spouse about crossdressing. Does it not hurt all of us when people are lying about their activities?

"Do not tell us that we have to accept someone if we do not agree with their reasons for dressing." If that is your thought than do not blame or get upset with others that think what you do is immoral or wrong because you are doing the EXACT same thing to others. How hard is this to understand?

Who am I? Well I do dress of my own free will and am in a relationship that i spend my entiretime dressed now. Why because my partner likes it! I do wear what my SO wants but how does that differ from a married couple? Does a spouse not wear what their partner wants at times to please them?

So rather than judging others motives how about realizing if it does not hurt others what is the problem. Is that not what most of us say?

But again I say that everytime we set foot in public they become unwilling participants in our activities like it or not. So my advice to you is if you wish to remain on this high horse do not go out in public because your motives are no more pure than any other person that crossdresses and does not use it to participate in predatory or illegal behavior.

[Mindys91503]

I hate to admit that I may be a bit slow on the uptake here but I am having a hard time deciphering what is being said in the origal post. Did I just get put down for being a crossdresser and wanting others to accept me as I am?

How can I expect to be accepted by others if I am going to judge their reasons for dressing, or not dressing? Another persons reason may not be mine, that does not make them in the wrong at all, just different than I am. That also does not make me wrong either.

Staying in the closet is not the same as lying in my opinion as the reason may simply be fear. Possibly out of consideration for another person is the reason. Being in the closet is not wrong.

I am not sure if I followed this thread or not, please set me straight if I didn't.

No you missed the point. The point is as crossdressers why are we so willing to judge the motives of other crossdressers and call their actions damaging to the cause while letting other issues slide. Basically I was saying that if we want acceptance as a group we should accept others within the group. That means that a person that crossdresses as a fetish should be accepted just as readily as one that does it as a way to express feminie desires or what ever reason.

My issue was that some people's objections of one peticular poster were hypocritical because they do not express the same outrage about deceiving one's spouse etc.

It has nothing to do with putting a crossdresser down as I too live enfemme.

[Kayla Shadows]

With anything anyone does,there will be some who are good and some who arent.This is with any group of people.When you start to say "crossdressers",you are stacking everyone in a single place and saying,"you...(whatever it is that is the issue)".I think everyone should be able to live their life as they see fit and not be the judge others.And Im am not one to judge anyone who is different.

It is complicated being who we are.There are those that do lie for there own reasons.It is reality and nothing that we should hide from.If it happens,then it should be out in the open.If its out in the open then we know who it is and have the ability to create change.Everyone here should have the freedom to speak their mind.

We can accept someones view but,we are of our own mind and have our own beliefs.I dont know if accepting always has to go along with agreeing in every aspect of that word.

[Kate Simmons]

It basically comes down to the individual person, their situation, their outlook and their degree of acceptance of others, especially those who have different viewpoints.

[KandisTX]

Stalking is illegal behavior and predators need to be dealt with.. Get real that is taking it to the extreme. And yet you failed to address the issue of lying to ones spouse about crossdressing. Does it not hurt all of us when people are lying about their activities?

Is it taking it to the extreme?? There are those out there that do this, and they are the ones that give crossdressing a bad name as you like to put it. As to the lying to ones spouse? All of my spouses have known about my dressing up front (with the exception of the first one), and they have all been understanding and accepting of my dressing.


"Do not tell us that we have to accept someone if we do not agree with their reasons for dressing." If that is your thought than do not blame or get upset with others that think what you do is immoral or wrong because you are doing the EXACT same thing to others. How hard is this to understand?

I never said that I didn't agree, I used the term 'we' as a generalization as you use the word 'you' as such. Most of the girls here are most accepting of the others, if we don't agree with their motives, we don't post on those threads, except when they make reference to us directly.



So rather than judging others motives how about realizing if it does not hurt others what is the problem. Is that not what most of us say?

The problem is it DOES hurt others, it causes people in the general public to have negative ideas about those of us that are actual crossdressers who go out in public in an attempt to appear as females and do that which we know or perceive as female activities.


But again I say that everytime we set foot in public they become unwilling participants in our activities like it or not. So my advice to you is if you wish to remain on this high horse do not go out in public because your motives are no more pure than any other person that crossdresses and does not use it to participate in predatory or illegal behavior.

Then by all means stay in your safe little hole with your SO wearing what they want you to wear and leave the going out to those of us that have the courage to do so.

You can say what you wish, and you are entitled to your opinion as I am, but I have difficulties taking advice from someone that appears to be quite limited in their knowledge as well a serious lack of participation on this board where they have been a member for over a year and has less than 10 posts. I think I had 10 posts on this board in the first hour or two I was a member here.

[battybattybats]

The problem is it DOES hurt others, it causes people in the general public to have negative ideas about those of us that are actual crossdressers who go out in public in an attempt to appear as females and do that which we know or perceive as female activities.



Hmmm... dangerous idea there. After all Does my being a goth with long painted nails and long hair hurt others? Do gays who hold hands in public and kiss, just like straight people, hurt others?

And here's the kicker, do young women who dress provocatively cause harm all women by seeming to be sexually available?

Because that kind of thinking leads to bhurkas and Mufti's referring to women as 'uncovered meat' and rape victims being blamed for encouraging the rapist.

I'm pretty sure 'freedom of expression' doesn't stop at crossdressing. I'm pretty sure that those freedoms of Enlightenment Philosophy are the foundation of western civilisation and I'm pretty sure that tolerance of difference is the foundation of a peaceful society.

[Mindys91503]

Is it taking it to the extreme?? There are those out there that do this, and they are the ones that give crossdressing a bad name as you like to put it. As to the lying to ones spouse? All of my spouses have known about my dressing up front (with the exception of the first one), and they have all been understanding and accepting of my dressing.

Congradulations about being honest to a spouse but others have posted in the public forum that they are not. Does that help or hurt the cause for a member of the public or a spouse that suspects something to see? Should that not be in a members only sect. too? And does a member of the general public seeing a post about a crossdresser lying to a spouse do as munch or more damage to other crossdressers than someone at the mall in a school girl uniform? The one at the mall will be easily dismissed by most of the public as an exteme so no harm done.


I never said that I didn't agree, I used the term 'we' as a generalization as you use the word 'you' as such. Most of the girls here are most accepting of the others, if we don't agree with their motives, we don't post on those threads, except when they make reference to us directly.

Interesting.. read some of the theads i meantioned above from pinkpantyhose. And yes there was an intentional generalization because if we (myself included) allow other members to condemn one in the group that expresses themselves differently then our silence is a condemnation of them as well.



The problem is it DOES hurt others, it causes people in the general public to have negative ideas about those of us that are actual crossdressers who go out in public in an attempt to appear as females and do that which we know or perceive as female activities.

And some would say that you doing what you know or perceive as a female activity while dressed as a female in public is hurtful too. And yet you want to be supported. If it is not illegal what is the problem other than some play into a stereotype that the public has. NO big deal but SOME crossdressers choose to make it a big deal. Therein lies the problem.
Then by all means stay in your safe little hole with your SO wearing what they want you to wear and leave the going out to those of us that have the courage to do so.

I am aout all the time. I live a enfemme. My issue is this: Do not talk about the public being unwilling participants in a crossdressers activity that youdo not agree with and then at the same time go out yourself. That is hypocritical. Simple as that.

You can say what you wish, and you are entitled to your opinion as I am, but I have difficulties taking advice from someone that appears to be quite limited in their knowledge as well a serious lack of participation on this board where they have been a member for over a year and has less than 10 posts. I think I had 10 posts on this board in the first hour or two I was a member here.

So I do not post alot, I do have other things that I do. A large number of posts does not mean knowledge it means one talks alot. As for limited in my knowledge try walking in my shoes for a month and then talk to me about my knowledge. What I have said and will coninue to say is that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that someone that is dressing like a stereotype is harmful and destroying any chance of acceptance but i am ok because i do it this way. I guess i cannot understand that while so many people in the world are not accepting of this life why would we turn on each other? Why would some call out and scold people that are expressing their crossdressing in a legal manner just differently from us and yet get upset when a clerk or person in the world treats them in a condesending manner? There is my issue.

[KatrinaAshley]

If I may add my two cents, there are many who claim to be crossdressers but do go overboard and give us a bad reputation. It's not our group that needs to be more accepting, it's the general public that sees the actions of a few and then blames us all.

Far be it for me to criticize another persons choice of clothing, but certain styles and activities should be left at home. Clubwear differs greatly from casual clothing. Or like your example of being forced to do things in public, that person was making a scene and not trying to blend in and act like a normal person. I feel that these unwilling participants can feel uncomfortable when faced with both situations so your point does have some truth to it. But if I were in that situation I would be less comfortable with the one trying to gain unnecessary attention compared to someone acting and dressing appropriately.

There is a place and time for everything. It's not the clothes or activities we feel strongly against, that would be hypocritical as you say. However this shouldn't be confused with choosing the wrong place and time for such things.

[KandisTX]

If I may add my two cents, there are many who claim to be crossdressers but do go overboard and give us a bad reputation. It's not our group that needs to be more accepting, it's the general public that sees the actions of a few and then blames us all.

Far be it for me to criticize another persons choice of clothing, but certain styles and activities should be left at home. Clubwear differs greatly from casual clothing. Or like your example of being forced to do things in public, that person was making a scene and not trying to blend in and act like a normal person. I feel that these unwilling participants can feel uncomfortable when faced with both situations so your point does have some truth to it. But if I were in that situation I would be less comfortable with the one trying to gain unnecessary attention compared to someone acting and dressing appropriately.

There is a place and time for everything. It's not the clothes or activities we feel strongly against, that would be hypocritical as you say. However this shouldn't be confused with choosing the wrong place and time for such things.

Thank you for saying this in the manner in which I was trying to get my point across. The concept of club wear is appealing and does work, but like anything else, there is a time and a place for everything. Clubwear is not what one should wear for a nice dinner at a resturant, it is designed for going to clubs and attracting attention to oneself. I personally have some clubwear, but I only wear it when I am attending a function that calls for that type of outfit.

Mindy91503:

I was not intending to come off as some "holier-than-thou" type. I was trying to play devil's advocate and apparently my responses were not being read as I had intended them. (a large problem with the typed/written word). You and I have our levels of experience and in each of our minds that is what we know. Neither of us knows the other and would not know the other if we passed on the street. Let us agree to disagree to some degree and leave it at that.

battybattybats:

Again, my posting apparently did not come across as I had originally intended. I apologize for the miscommunication there. While I am not retracting my original posts, I do want to make sure that it is understood that they may not have come across as correctly intended. I was trying to say what KatrinaAshley has so eloquently stated in her post.

Kandis:love::rose2:

[KathrynCleve]

Well, as the oldest femulator on this forum, I can only say that I finally accepted that I am 91% female and 9% male and that is fine with me. My wife is totally supportive and I never deny to anyone that I am both. However, I don't really care if anyone other than my wife accepts me.